Open Mike 08/12/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 8th, 2017 - 78 comments
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78 comments on “Open Mike 08/12/2017”

  1. Andre 1

    Flynn and Russian nukes in the middle east (what could possibly go wrong?). Bits and pieces of this story have been floating around for a while, but apparently Mueller has been asking for it to be kept quiet. But apparently it’s now ok for those in the know to talk about it.

    https://www.salon.com/2017/12/07/mike-flynn-and-the-russians-was-he-reckless-greedy-or-hopelessly-corrupt/

  2. Cinny 2

    Watched a doco with Miss 13 last night, highly recommended viewing.

    The Age of Consequences

    THE AGE OF CONSEQUENCES investigates the impacts of climate change on increased resource scarcity, migration, and conflict through the lens of US national security and global stability. Through unflinching case-study analysis, distinguished admirals, generals and military veterans take us beyond the headlines of the conflict in Syria, the social unrest of the Arab Spring, the rise of radicalized groups like ISIS, border walls, and the European refugee crisis – and lay bare how climate change interacts with other socio-political factors to exacerbate societal tensions and spark conflict.

  3. spikeyboy 3

    From the article

    By this time, Flynn and everyone else in the country was aware that Russia had interfered in the election

    Should read

    By this time, Flynn and everyone else in the country was aware that the democrats were accusing Russia of interfering in the election.

    And the statement of Russian government interference further on in the piece is also false. These things now get stated as fact in some quaters though still no proof. Just endless innuendo.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1

      Do you believe the lies you repeat?

      …September 2015, when an agent from the FBI’s Washington Field Office notified the Democratic National Committee that Russian hackers had compromised at least one DNC computer.

      So your failed attempt at revision should read:

      By this time, Flynn and everyone else in the country was aware that the democrats FBI were accusing Russia of interfering in the election.

      Try harder.

      • spikeyboy 3.1.1

        Glad to see you are using the word accusing. This is entirely my point

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1

          No, your point is to claim that the accusation is “false”. So you are behaving in exactly the same way as those who claim it is true.

          • spikeyboy 3.1.1.1.1

            When you are accused of something you are innocent until proved guilty. So yes. I assume innocence.

            • tracey 3.1.1.1.1.1

              That is the legal premise for sure. The broader context is murkened when people may misuse power to block the truth or pervert investigations.

              Hopefully we can all agree it is a very murky situation.

              • spikeyboy

                Yes. Definately murky. And we all pick through whatever evidence we caan find and make our own judgements. To my mind the USA created Trump and must own him if they want to avoid repeating him. I have read a lot about this as have many people. I admit that these are only my views but I see no evidence of any Russian plot. The things that Flynn was doing were obviously not good but the whole story above hinges on the conjecture of a Russian plot as fact

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  If you did see the evidence that Secureworks et al have reported, would you be capable of understanding it?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.1.2

              Whereas this is not a criminal trial and never will be.

    • mauī 3.2

      Nicely said, to paraphrase one commentator, every Russia allegation is a dud, a dud that reappears every couple of weeks and sends the Id-libs (Idiot liberals) into a frenzy over their ‘shining democracy’ being controlled by a foreign power – Russia, russia, russia.

  4. Morrissey 4

    GROPERS
    No. 17: Warren Moon

    Not every great quarterback has the moral stature of Colin Kaepernick….

    Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon used to grab his assistant’s crotch without her consent, mandated that she sleep in his bed during business trips, and drugged her drink during a business trip in Mexico “because he thought she was not ‘having fun,’” according to a lawsuit filed this week by the former assistant in a California court. ….

    The woman, 32-year-old Wendy Haskell, was hired as the 61-year-old Moon’s executive assistant in July. She says in the lawsuit that “Moon had a dark and twisted side that commanded far more than just executive assistant services from his newly hired employee.”

    …..

    Three days later, Haskell reported Moon’s behavior—the dress code, sleeping arrangements, touching, and unwanted sexual advances—to the company’s CEO, David Melzer, according to the lawsuit. Meltzer told her to go with Moon on an upcoming trip to Cabo as planned. The lawsuit describes the trip as little more than pretext for Moon to harass women….
    https://deadspin.com/lawsuit-warren-moon-grabbed-drugged-and-threatened-h-1821065543

    http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/sports/pro-football-jury-rapidly-acquits-moon-of-spousal-abuse-charges.html

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/09/nfl-legend-rips-colin-kaepernick-for-suing-the-nfl/

    “GROPERS” is presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    You can collect all the Gropers….
    No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush; No. 2 Bill O’Reilly; No. 3 Al Franken; No. 4 Robin Brooke; No. 5 Lester Beck; No. 6 Arnold Schwarzenegger; No. 7 Joe Biden; No. 8 Rolf Harris; No. 9 Harold Bloom; No. 10 Sir Jimmy Savile; No. 11 Dr Morgan Fahey; No.12 Prince Harry; No. 13 Bill Clinton; No.14 Judge Roy Moore; No. 15 Matt Lauer; No. 16 Richard Branson

  5. tracey 5

    The rising cost of tourism includes…

    Toxic algae in Lake Taupo leads to the cancellation of the swim leg in tomorrow’s Ironman. To be clear, by tourists I mean NZ and overseas and recreational visitors not taking the cleaning of boats and shoes seriously.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11955663

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.1

      More likely to be nutrient inputs to the lake (i.e land use) , rather than introduction of specific algae on a tourist.

    • Sabine 5.2

      i would assume that the boats on lake Taupo belong to New Zealanders. I don’t think we can really blame ‘tourists’ – i.e. foreign tourists for the lack of properly cleaned boats.

      We have just received an ‘urgent’ warning in regards to the toxic algea in Lake Taupo.
      our little spot by the lake are a few houses, many boat sheds, and if it is found here on our side Lake Maraetai it will affect our water supply and the income for literally most of the residence here that scrape by making a living out of ‘tourists’ – mainly NZ’lers and their boats, Jetskis, Canoes, and such.

      We need to do some house cleaning and some soul searching as to how we want to manage our resources.

      • Bearded Git 5.2.1

        Exactly Sabine. This is a problem caused by locals with some oddballs trying to blame tourists. The same thing happens with vehicle accidents that are 96% caused by locals.

        We would be lost without the billions the tourist industry is bringing in. We must learn to live with and mitigate any adverse effects starting with an extensive network of toilets and tables at every roadside stop.

      • Tracey 5.2.2

        To be clear, by tourists I mean NZ and overseas and recreational visitors not taking the cleaning of boats and shoes seriously.

        • Sabine 5.2.2.1

          I understand that, but really the boaties are locals or townies that come for the weekend, freedom camp, hoon up and down the river/lake and go home again.
          I have yet to see someone staying by the lake cleaning the boats before leaving.

          So one must assume that it is done at home, and well if they don’t use bleach or something similar i can’t see how they could kill the algae.

          Also there is the issue with the overuse of the surrounding lands by the dairy industry. I mean i can see the cows on the other side of the lake. there used to be trees there, now there is millions of cows. It simply can’t be good.

          this area here is fucked without that bit of tourism, to have an Ironman without the swimming leg one day before the event happens to me only means one thing, a. the water quality is not monitored, b. there are not enough people to monitor our waterways and lakes, c. she’ll be right, d. oops we fucked up.

          Shameful, embarrassing and if i were a competitor from oversees having forked out huge costs to get here i would not be amused.

          We need to get a grip and start monitoring the impact of tourism and farming on our land. Lest we all want to start boiling our water before use.

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.3

      Perhaps you mean’t “the rising cost to tourism” tracey?

      Folk flock to places like Taupo to take a dip in the 100% Pure waters…yet if they can’t swim…

      This report …. https://www.ttophs.govt.nz/vdb/document/43 gives good overall information…including the rather disturbing..

      “What do I do if my water supply comes from a stream, river
      or lake affected by cyanobacteria?
      Check your intake (and also upstream) for the presence of cyanobacteria algae
      and contact your local council or a Health Protection Officer at Toi Te Ora –
      Public Health if you think your water supply may be affected. In rivers affected
      by cyanobacterial mats, it is important to keep you intake grates free of the
      mats by cleaning them frequently (making sure you don not touch the mats).
      Normal household filtration or disinfection systems (e.g. the adding of
      household chlorine based disinfectants) do not effectively remove
      cyanobacterial toxins. Boiling the water is not recommended as boiling will
      cause the cyanobacteria cells to break open and will actually increase the
      available toxin concentration. So if your water may be affected, to ensure
      safety, close off your intake and find an alternative water supply. In the longer
      term you should look for an alternative source for your water supply.”

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11951429

      Dairy NZ criticises “UK environmental entrepreneur publicly likened the country to “a beautiful person with cancer”.”

      As well as increased nutrients…the most likely factor exacerbating algal bloom is this wee thing..
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-country/news/article.cfm?c_id=16&objectid=11953368

      “…the sea surface temperature in the Tasman Sea and around New Zealand is between 2degC and more than 6degC above the November average. It is a sign the warm weather could continue until February next year.”

      Those are frighteningly high temperatures…

    • Ed 5.4

      Sounds lovely me nutrients from farms, not tourists.

      • Tracey 5.4.1

        Farmers to blame for Kauri Dieback too Ed?

        Tourists, as I stringly alluded to in my comment, are all visitors to the lake.

        It is another example of people viewing nature as a doormat not a living breathing system impacted by each and every one of our trespasses.

        • Sabine 5.4.1.1

          maybe ‘users’ is a better word then ‘tourists’. tourists is synonym with foreigners etc. Users is simply everyone who uses the lake, its shores and its surrounding areas.

        • Rosemary McDonald 5.4.1.2

          “Tourists, as I stringly alluded to in my comment, are all visitors to the lake.

          It is another example of people viewing nature as a doormat not a living breathing system impacted by each and every one of our trespasses.”

          It is a combination of factors that lead to a toxic algal bloom…the least of which is probably tourism….unless tourism adds considerably to the nutrients entering the waterway.

          ttps://www.ttophs.govt.nz/vdb/document/43

          “Cyanobacteria (commonly known as “blue-green algae”) are among the oldest
          and most primitive forms of life. They are found in fresh water lakes and rivers
          throughout the world, usually in low concentrations, and are not visible without
          the use of a microscope. However, when conditions are favourable,
          cyanobacteria cells can multiply and form cyanobacteria blooms or
          cyanobacterial mats. These may also accumulate to form surface scums in
          shallow inlets and bays and along the shoreline of lakes and rivers.
          Favourable conditions for cyanobacteria blooms include the right combination of
          warm temperatures, sunlight, and low (or stable) river flows, or calm lake
          conditions. Cyanobacteria blooms are a natural phenomenon but human
          activities, such as taking water from rivers or adding nutrients to waterways, can
          increase the risk of blooms occurring. In particular, high levels of nutrients such
          as phosphorus and nitrogen increase the risk of blooms occurring. These
          nutrients may reach waterways from sources such as fertiliser use, livestock,
          and sewage leakage or discharge in lake and river catchment areas. “

        • Robert Guyton 5.4.1.3

          Imagine having a living, breathing doormat!
          Cool!
          You’d wanna look after it, aye!
          Give it water and nourishment. Keep it alive and thriving – happy even!

    • Ed 5.5

      Sound like farming’s ‘externalities.’

  6. eco maori 6

    The latest 2 fines I have received were a setup I disputed one I emailed my dispute I was not speeding they took the officer word against mine . I could not be bothered taking it to court Here it is global warming our biggest lake has Toxic algae bloom how long has this been known for national cover up. I say we start industrial scale worm farms and spread worm casting on our farms instead of the chemical that we are using to cheat mother nature. The big company will say you can do that yea right. To our new coalition government if the adviser say you cannot do something well you make the law so change it so you can achieve what you set out to do and background check your adviser as they mite have a conflict of interest in national supporter. You people on breakfast are showing your good Kiwi humour Ka pai

    • savenz 6.1

      @eco Maori +1 “I say we start industrial scale worm farms and spread worm casting on our farms instead of the chemical that we are using to cheat mother nature.”

    • eco maori 6.2

      Gisborne man Gisborne man you have shit on Gisborne for to long time to retire I no you are intimate with some one that’s related to me and I no that you are trying to set it up for me to come to Gisborne were you have all the power to falsely arrest me. I told you don’t underestimate ECO MAORI. When I was in that computer repair and met Preble I got that chill down my spine thanks to my tipuna for that gift as well as my excellent sense of smell on Wednesday when I was driving back to the farm over the kaimais I noticed a Toyota and as always I keep a guard up it was good insight because one car pulled up in the middle of the road to turn right who does that well the Toyota jammed on there brakes right next to the blue car for no reason I had to break hard tyres squealing to stop ramming up the ass of the Toyota rad 4 and when they seen that I stopped about 3 feet from them the Toyota took off in a hurry suspect A. Many thanks to my tipuna for these skills. Back to the computer shop it was not about Richard preble he was the decoy what shit have they got on preble on the way to the computer shop I seen Gisborne man he was trying to look like a shopper standing in a shop doorway looking at the sky fool and he came in the computer shop and I got that feeling
      I shook preble hand an said Mr preble you no who eco Maori is he grinned and said yes and after 1 minutes he went into the back of the shop. You see this was Gisborne man trying to prove on camera that I could not id him I have another way of proving who you are. When I drag your ass over those hot coals of a courthouse for my breach of the waitangi treaty I will let you no how I can do this you told everyone I was a dum idiot well sorry you are the idiot I no that my neo liberal neighbour idolise you an you have imposed your religious races view on the justice systems of New Zealand for to long and I am going to stop you dick head
      I no you are m8 with Rickard and are from the same mold of fascist elitist ass holes you will see everyone abandoned you fool Ana to kai

      • eco maori 6.2.1

        How’s the glider Gisborne man well you are going to have some time to play with that toy now. Kia kaha

        • eco maori 6.2.1.1

          Better thoughts how many lady judges do we have we need equality it that profession to. I new people were going to try and slow down the changes you want to make our society to make more humane and equal. You will get there just relax and surround yourself with a good team you can trust like in the art of war you are doing a excellent job of prime minister there will be a lot of people trying to tell you can’t do what you want tell them whose BOSS. What I do when I got a problem is. I will go under it over though it over it around I won’t stop till I solve the problem. Many thanks for your hard work for the better of our country. Ka pai

          • eco maori 6.2.1.1.1

            You have to be vigilant on your people to have a gard up at all times and this culture will save you a lot of grief.
            Ka pai

      • BM 6.2.2

        Seek help before you do something stupid.

  7. savenz 7

    “Natural resources have been pushed to “critical boundaries” by the economy’s reliance on exporting raw materials, and the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) is “not fit for purpose”, the documents say”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/99635380/Environment-Ministry-rubbishes-clean-green-image-pokes-holes-in-attempts-to-address-emissions

  8. Inquiry slams Ministry of Health, local councils for systemic failure on water standards

    Controversy looms as the Government considers universal treatment of drinking water through measures such as chlorination.

    The recommended move stems from a report revealing that up to 100,000 Kiwis are getting sick every year from drinking tap water.

    While Auckland and Wellington residents are drinking safe water, 20 per cent of the country – over 700,000 New Zealanders and countless more tourists – are at risk of drinking potentially unsafe water.

    When 100,000 people are getting sick every year from drinking water out of the tap then we have to stop the delusional practice of continuing with untreated water. There’s a massive cost involved that includes possible death (three died in Havelock North because of poor water) and, of course, the added cost of millions more plastic bottles.

  9. The Chairman 9

    The vicious circle

    The more the cost of goods go up, the more people tend to resort to theft. Yet, the more people shoplift, the more the costs of goods increase as the cost of theft is largely passed on.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/retail-crime-costing-industry-1-billion-year-new-report-finds

  10. eco maori 10

    I get a escort were ever I go I wonder how the justice department can justify the amount of money they are pouring into eco Maori when resources are badly required for other people wellbeing. I meet Richard preble this morning I told him I was eco Maori and asked if he new that name he agreed had a smile a went to the back of the computer shop and shut the door there were cameras on to another character check out from the popo
    Must have a fantasy that I would be a idiot and abuse him what a bunch of dicks I don’t believe in coincidence. Kia kaha

    • james 10.1

      Eco Maori,

      I say this with respect and genuine concern. You have written a number of post where you discuss people following you everywhere, or an ‘escort’.

      Im not saying that this isnt the case, but would suggest perhaps having a word in the ear of some whanau or other people who you trust.

      I know if I had someone I loved feeling like this all the time, I would do what I could to help them, regardless of what that help needed to be.

      For the others in here – Im well aware of your views of me and my comments – but perhaps we can leave that for a separate thread this time huh?

  11. adam 11

    So the trains drivers are on strike, and auckland has not fallen apart.

    The usual bullshit from the granny and the hard right in this country about it being a disaster, have been proven wrong once again. When will they learn?

    But our media being the panderers of the corporate agenda once again not publishing the concern of the workers in this situation . It’s all about the disruption.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/99656790/auckland-train-strike-traffic-flowing-well-ahead-of-peak-rushhour-traffic

    SO!!

    If you missed it, here is why they are striking

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/345589/auckland-rail-workers-to-strike-over-driver-only-trains

    • BM 11.1

      The union needs to get with the times, this is how many trains operate around the world.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-man_operation

      • adam 11.1.1

        Look another Tory telling workers to put up and shut up – who would have guessed.

      • mpledger 11.1.2

        One man operation refers to the people actually moving the train – the driver and/or engineer. It doesn’t count people internal to the train e.g. conductors or ticket collectors; or on the platform e.g. the Japanese shovers.

        I haven’t been around Auckland trains for about 15 years but from what I remember platforms and trains weren’t set up to allow for one person to manage the driving and ticketing of an entire train – let alone managing people with accessibilty issues e.g. wheel chairs, push chairs, or people with luggage, bikes etc.

        We really need a corporate manslaughter law that deals with willful negligence.

      • Yes because having unsafe trains moving tens of thousands of people every day is such a good idea….

        /sarc

    • alwyn 11.2

      “So the trains drivers are on strike, and auckland has not fallen apart”.

      I can take another view of that.
      The enormous expenditure by rate-payers and tax-payers on suburban rail is totally wasted. We simply don’t need it.
      The same thing happened in Wellington few weeks ago. Traffic flowed as freely as ever.
      Why are we bothering to spend billions of dollars on Auckland suburban rail when it is simply not required? Wouldn’t it be much better to spend the money on treating the water supply for the rest of the country?
      Or simply give it back to the tax-payers who are, I am sure, find something better to do with it?
      I wonder if Genter uses public transport now? Or is a Ministerial Beemer now totally necessary to her life?

      • adam 11.2.1

        Sheesh alwyn you are a joke. I’ve said it before your an ideological hack for a discredited ideology.

        Your lot are wreckers, you just can’t help yourself can you?

        You want to save the tax payer, get rid of the super city, get rid of the military and get rid of the spy bases. That will save the tax and rate payer way more money, rather than your stupid idea, you ideological hack.

        • alwyn 11.2.1.1

          I see little advantage from the “super city”.
          Actually I would class Auckland as being a small city by world standards. It just happens to be bigger than any other in this tiny country.

          “get rid of the military and get rid of the spy bases”.
          Possibly. What would Ron Mark do for a crust though if he didn’t have the opportunity to lord it over his former superiors?
          The military do have a role in disaster relief of course. The Veronica, a Royal Navy ship, happened to be in Napier at the time of it’s earthquake and provided enormous assistance. There are people still around who remember it with gratitude I gather.

          Apart from that though I think Bob Jones had it about right in 1984 when he headed the New Zealand Party in the election.
          He wanted a budget for the armed forces of 20 cents or something similar.
          It only need to be enough to ring up any invading forces and say “We surrender”. That was a bit radical for the other party members but they still wanted a massive cutback in defence expenditure.
          Have a look at section 1.2 “Early days” here
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Party

          You sound as if you would have been an ardent supporter.
          Would you have been a member?

          • adam 11.2.1.1.1

            I’ve been more than honest about the way I see the world, and people like you and north are just stuck thinking is such small ways.

            Have you even tried not to think like a tired ideological hack alwyn? Have you ever given another worldview a go?

            I know, too hard basket. But, worth a crack nigel… (seeing as we going all 80’s)

            • alwyn 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Now, now. Just calm down and take another Valium tablet.
              Me, a tired ideological hack?
              I would have said that was a very good description of youself?
              Why do you insist that the ancient, 19th century trams are the way to go and refuse to accept we are now in the 21st century?
              Don’t continue to be so small minded. Let you mind expand to accept the new technology.

      • Ad 11.2.2

        In the Auckland region, a large percentage of the train passengers after 9am are Gold Card people. Old people. Thousands of them. Hundreds of thousands. People just like you.

        Sucking up that 50% plus ticket price of subsidy every journey.

        None of that massive subsidy is reflected in the billions it took in CAPEX to electrify the lines and build the stations.

        Those old people sucking up the train carriage air conditioning are subsidised up to their eyeballs.

        But then, so is every car driver as well.

        And to give you a quick hint: with no trains running today, every motorway was at standstill here.

      • Kay 11.2.3

        Hey Alwyn, it’s not often I wish my particular condition on others, but there are a few of you out there who would be very deserving of waking up tomorrow with an illness that sees your driver’s licence confiscated.

        That’s usually the only way to make the anti-public transport zealots appreciate just how useful trains and buses are. And just how completely stranded you are when there aren’t any around.

        • alwyn 11.2.3.1

          You are presumably eligible for a 50% subsidy on a taxi?
          http://www.transport.govt.nz/land/the-total-mobility-scheme/
          I would quite happily increase the rate of the subsidy although I wouldn’t make it free.
          On the other hand it won’t be needed in a few years. The current public transport options of buses and trains will, like the private motor vehicle itself, become totally obsolete.
          Autonomous vehicles will take over very much sooner than you may imagine.
          Then you won’t be any different to anyone else, will you?
          Please hope we haven’t spent too many billions on trams, the nineteenth century technology so beloved by Luddites.

      • Craig H 11.2.4

        The main congestion saving for passenger rail is in town because that’s where the traffic converges.

      • The enormous expenditure by rate-payers and tax-payers on suburban rail is totally wasted. We simply don’t need it.

        You have absolutely NFI of how traffic on networks flow do you? Have NFI of why people using cars produces far more gridlock and shifts less people than public transport.

        Yeah, we public transport, especially the trains. What we need is to get rid of the cars because they’re the cause of several problems that we simply can no longer afford.

        Why are we bothering to spend billions of dollars on Auckland suburban rail when it is simply not required?

        Actually, the billions have been spent on roads and we’ve still got gridlock.

        Wouldn’t it be much better to spend the money on treating the water supply for the rest of the country?

        What’s treating water going to do if we’re still poisoning the people and the environment with excessive car use?

        Or simply give it back to the tax-payers who are, I am sure, find something better to do with it?

        We keep hearing this BS from the RWNJs. Then we’ll hear from them how beneficiaries need to have the benefits curtailed so that they can only spend their money on what we allow them to.

        The massive cognitive overload of holding such contrary positions is probably what makes NJs.

        Oh, and all the tax cuts have resulted in worse services that cost us more.

        I wonder if Genter uses public transport now? Or is a Ministerial Beemer now totally necessary to her life?

        And there we have the normal ad hominem’s that we expect from the gutter crawlers of the right-wing.

    • mpledger 11.3

      I haven’t been on the Auckland trains for about 15 years but if there are only train drivers then teachers need to be around to supervise their students using the trains.

      I was on a train when a whole lot of boys came racing on and piled on to one on the long seats, scaring the life out of lady who looked like she had been in a car crash recently (sling, neck brace and broken nose). When the conductor asked for money for their tickets they would pretend to drop it in his hand but let it drop on the floor and the poor conductor had to scrabble under the seats to find it. The boys were complete and utter shits.

      Then you’e hear on the radio about some mother moaning because her son got kicked off the train for bad behaviour and how terrible it was that he was put off far from home. From the behaviour I saw the kids would have to be a threat to life and limb before any action was taken.

      (Perhaps there were girl who were terrible too but I only saw these boys.)

  12. Ad 13

    Ireland is starting to get the $14billion plus that it is owed from Apple:
    http://fortune.com/2017/12/04/apple-to-pay-ireland-billions-in-back-taxes/

    Meanwhile, our Labour-led government’s Minister of Revenue Stuart Nash has just introduced into Parliament the Taxation (Neutralisation Base Erosion and Profit Sharing) Bill has measures aimed at preventing multinationals from achieving a tax advantage through:

    • artificially high interest rates on loans from related parties to shift profits out of New Zealand
    • hybrid mismatch arrangements that exploit differences between countries’ tax rules
    • artificial arrangements to avoid having a taxable presence in New Zealand; and
    • related-party transactions to shift profits to offshore group members.

    Nash is going to keep on this, because there is a massive industry by multinationals in tax planning. Apple tried to shift its liabilities over to New Jersey, and with the U.S. slashing its corporate rate down to 20%, we can expect to see more relocations that damage small economies.

    First Reading of this bill is on Tuesday 12 December. Keen to see how the Opposition oppose this one.

    • alwyn 13.1

      This could be as dangerous as hell for New Zealand.
      There is a major problem with tax avoidance by multi-nationals. However the only way to fix it is with multinational action.
      Suppose we just determine what we regard is an “equitable” tax regime for a company whose main source of revenue is the sale of their IP, such as Apple. They transfer it to New Zealand and then sell it on at essentially the transfer price. How are we going to be able to demand that it be done at some other price? About 8 years ago I understand Apple had only a single employee in New Zealand. He was only here because they hadn’t yet managed to get him a Green Card. They really didn’t do any business here at all that created taxable income here.

      Suppose that China decides that their setting the transfer price is a great idea. Suppose they say they will set the transfer price for the milk we ship to China and sell there.
      Then what are you going to do if they set the transfer price at ZERO and say that all the sales made in China are pure profit?
      Then they tax it at 30% and demand $5 billion a year as taxes?
      The tax treatment of multinationals has got to be done by a consensus of all nations, or at least all the ones who trade or we will get robbed blind.

      I really don’t have the time to spell this out fully but just think about this brief item. It may be politically desirable to claim we are bashing the rich foreigners but it is far more complicated than people like Nash seem to understand.

      • There is a major problem with tax avoidance by multi-nationals. However the only way to fix it is with multinational action.

        Typical RWNJ: It’s too haaaard and so we shouldn’t do anything.

        I take it you’re one of the ones using dodgy tax systems to ‘minimise’ your taxes.

        • alwyn 13.1.1.1

          There are a total of 4 sentences in this comment.
          The first two, within the quote, are accurate and pertinent.
          The third comes out of your imagination. I never said anything of the sort.
          The fourth is just a load of drivel. I pay all the taxes I owe and in fact make no attempt to minimise them.
          You cannot answer the points I am making so you simply abuse the messenger.

          • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1

            The third is what you were actually saying in the quoted text and the rest of your rant. I can only assume that you don’t want things to change, that the problem is fixed, because you’re benefiting from the present broken system.

            Apple doesn’t transfer their IP to NZ so not a valid argument but it does raise the question of why they’re getting a tax write off for it.

            They really didn’t do any business here at all that created taxable income here.

            Then why do they have an office here with millions of dollars of sales?

            Suppose that China decides that their setting the transfer price is a great idea. Suppose they say they will set the transfer price for the milk we ship to China and sell there.

            That would actually be free-trade.

            Still, the big question is: Why do we even allow transfer pricing?
            It’s obviously being abused by multi-national corps so that they can avoid paying taxes.

            The tax treatment of multinationals has got to be done by a consensus of all nations, or at least all the ones who trade or we will get robbed blind.

            That’s what the FTAs and the WTO are for but they’re not working as we keep finding out when we get screwed by other nations ignoring the FTAs that they have with us.

            • alwyn 13.1.1.1.1.1

              “I can only assume that you don’t want things to change”.
              Rubbish. It is, as I have stated a major problem. However we can’t just fix it by making unilateral declarations of what a transfer price should be.
              The problem has to be fixed by all nations agreeing on the rules.
              It is a multinational problem and it needs multinational agreement on the rules.

              “Then why do they have an office here with millions of dollars of sales”.
              All they really do here is deliver overseas built and programmed computers, and phones and so on, to sales outlets.
              There argument is that they make no profit here. There may be profits made in New Zealand but they are made by their dealers and any tax that may be due on those profits is paid here.
              There is, of course a 15% tax paid on the whole price of the goods sold. That is the GST.

              “Why do we even allow transfer pricing”.
              I don’t understand what you really mean. Are you suggesting, as you seem to be, that no deduction should be allowed on the sales price of an item for the cost to build the item in another country?
              If that is what you want you are simply arguing that there should be no trade at all between countries. That may be what you want but I would like to get, and pay a fair price for, things that are made in another country.

              “That’s what the FTAs and the WTO are for”.
              Yes they are, and the are working. Slowly but working out in the end.

              You do realise, I hope, that the row between the EU and Apple is really the EU ordering Ireland, supposedly a Sovereign Nation, to charge taxes at the rate the EU orders them to do. Ireland is on Apple’s side in this squabble.

              I don’t hold any particular brief for Apple by the way. They want, like many businesses and people, to pay as little tax as possible.
              The solution is not something that one country, particularly a small one like NZ can fix on its own. We need multinational agreements that can enable us to work out where value has been added, where profits have been made and where taxes are due.
              We aren’t going to be able to do that on our own

  13. eco maori 14

    Here a thought how many brown judges do we have at a guess not many if any. My Mama would not even let me call the person who took me to the post office
    by her real title and a few years ago she asked me to call her that my reply was this is the name mama told me to call you enough said these people think by swarming me they will break me mentally YEA RIGHT Kai kaha

  14. greywarshark 15

    Government without any purpose, no interest, no clues, don’t want improvements or planning for them, wait and see, what have the wealthy ones got up their sleeves. Leave everything to them, keep our hands out for the money – follow the old joke about the big lottery winner who responds to the question of what to do with the begging letters with ‘Keep sending them out as usual’. Milk the suckers and look out for enrichment opportunities for oneself and club. Life in NZ under National Party.

    We have been following the USA and this piece from there from 2011 bemoans that over there they don’t give a stuff about an active economy that fires on all cylinders either.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/lloyd-chapman/small-business-administration_b_932007.html

    The latest Census Bureau data indicates that small businesses are responsible for 90 percent of all net new jobs. A report from the Kauffman Foundation found that small businesses have created virtually 100 percent of all net new jobs since 1980. Small businesses employ more than half the private sector workforce, are responsible for half of GDP and account for 90 percent of all U.S. exports.

    It is undeniable that small businesses are the lifeblood of our nation’s economy. To think about closing the only agency in the country that helps small businesses is unconscionable. Clearly Republicans like Senator Burr, his supporters and groups such as the CATO Institute are directed like puppets by the defense and aerospace industry.

    Seems a good idea to turn around and help get new enterprises going, and give tax advantages to ones that can grow enough to hire a young person, or an older one who has to find a job till retirement.

  15. greywarshark 16

    Looking at Lloyd Burr on google –
    Radiolive background TV3
    The MMP Review of 2012 which provoked criticism of Judith Collins.
    http://www.elections.org.nz/events/past-events-0/2012-mmp-review/results-mmp-review

    Bryce Edwards from 2013 which would have a para if NBR wasn’t so anally retentive.
    https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-politics-daily-collins-fights-back-ck-140401

    Lloyd Burr gets mentioned for devoting attention to Judith Collins.

    June 2017 Burr is having a go at Winston Peters. But also how his confidential data slipped out and the chain that passed it on.

    In August Winston wasn’t being transparent.

    He had a go at National and English’s big promise of getting children out of poverty. Multiple 50,000s being referred to.

    Then he made a point that National had lied about Labour’s tax intentions. Labour should have been outspoken from the first calling this out and the lack might lose the election.

    Then the post election discussions were good for some pondering and opinion.
    NZ First and the Greens

    Then he talked up a group of pollies after a meeting trying to avoid nosy reporter\in October.

    Nov 2017 Burr is apparently named in Winston’s foray against journalists.

    He is casting round for something to get his hooks into I guess.

    • Muttonbird 16.1

      I’ve heard anecdotally he’s not liked by parliamentary staff for being a blustering, self-important show pony. Looks to me like he’s just another young hack wanting a few exposes in the belief this will make his career, but hasn’t yet learned the finer points of using trust to get good dialogue with MPs, ministers, and senior civil servants.

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