Open mike 08/06/2013

114 comments on “Open mike 08/06/2013 ”

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1. Boadicea 1

   8 June 2013 at 6:47 am

   http://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/6810936/Lawyer-named-Shearers-chief-of-staff

   Fired. Shearer has fired Roberson’s plant in his office. Cameron was ‘gone by lunchtime ‘ yesterday.

   Has Shearer finally worked out that his real enemy is poorly polling Wellington central mp?
   • richard 1.1

     8 June 2013 at 6:54 am

     “Has Shearer finally worked out that his real enemy is poor polling Welington central mp?”

     Nope. His real enemy is his own incompetence as a political leader.
   • Saarbo 1.2

     8 June 2013 at 6:58 am

     He needs to Fire himself.
     • Morrissey 1.2.1

       8 June 2013 at 12:33 pm

       Maybe a sex scandal can be arranged?
   • JK 1.3

     8 June 2013 at 2:28 pm

     Where did you get this bit of news from ? I can’t find it on Scoop, Herald, Dom Post – so please elucidate.
2. Saarbo 2

   8 June 2013 at 6:51 am

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10889121

   John Armstrong has made a full on attack against Russel Norman and the Greens in todays Herald.

   Obviously the Greens are starting to worry the National Party’s number 1 PR man.

   Norman needs to continue to attack National FULL ON, he has my support 100%. In fact the more Armstrong complains the better, it just provides a gauge on how affective his attacks actually are.
   • Paul 2.1

     8 June 2013 at 7:36 am

     +1
     • Jenny 2.1.1

       8 June 2013 at 11:10 am

       The Green Party Conference will not be televised

       Despite the tight secrecy and media blackout that surrounded the Green Party AGM, details of what went on are starting to come out.

       The new rules mean getting a remit on to the floor of the conference will be a logistical nightmare as all remits will require endorsement by two other branches, one of which must be in another region than that of the branch promoting the remit.

       Branch remits will be subject to stricter vetting and potential redrafting by the party’s standing orders committee.

       If a remit does not satisfy certain conditions, the committee can “suspend” it. If the remit reflects discontent with a wider issue, then it will be subject to a dispute procedure.

       A copy of the committee’s proposals for changing the party’s standing orders which was obtained by the Weekend Herald acknowledges remits provide a “safety valve” if a sufficiently large number of members are disgruntled with some aspect of party operations.

       But the report says it is possibly more important that unresolved issues between the party at large and a branch does not consume “valuable and finite time” at the party’s annual conference.

       All of this has some members crying foul. There is concern that the rule changes will leave branches reduced to chores such as fundraising, leafletting and campaigning and having no input into how the party is run. Annual conferences will likewise become sterile affairs.

       There is also suspicion that the effective blocking of a means of expressing dissent is motivated by the hierarchy’s fears the party’s wider and idealistic membership will find the necessary compromises of coalition too hard to stomach.

       John Armstrong

       If what Armstrong reports is true;

       Then it seems that this conference saw a steep reduction in the Greens inner party democracy. With the right to veto membership remits or amend them out of all recognition by the top table, power has been concentrated with the leadership. As well as this, the increased and complex bureaucracy imposed to make branch remits harder to put in the first place, will put a further crimp on the members ability to influence the direction of their party.

       In my estimation these new rules to restrict inner party democracy are much tougher than those in the Labour Party. And though I am not as familiar with the remit procedures of the other parties, possibly every other parliamentary party as well.
     • Jenny 2.1.2

       8 June 2013 at 12:17 pm

       Business As Usual will not be upset by upstart political parties.

       Is this the beginning of the end for the Green Party?

       weka has posited here, that it is a natural progression for political parties to become more corrupted as they become more mainstream. (Probably because of their greater attraction for careerists). I would go further and say that it is actually, not a natural progression at all, but a time honoured but still conscious process that protects privilege and power for a minority of elitist self servers from the threat inherent in democracy to challenge both, Privilege and Power and elitism.

       I’ve said before that I think it is possible that the GP will eventually compromise too far. That is the nature of politics – those on the edge, as their ideas becomes popular and as they influence the mainstreamthus become corrupted. The difference between you and I is that I just don’t see how that is anything other than inevitable

       weka

       I on the other hand argue that this degeneration is not inevitable at all.

       But it seems the Green Party are determined not to learn from history and not resist the dilution of their inner party democracy, and their transformation into an autocratic top down traditional political organisation.

       Personally I think this is a sad day for the Greens. And for our democracy in general. Not to mention the future of our civilisation, which could well hinge on whether leading political organisations can break away from the BAU model or not.

       P.S. Suppressing inner party democracy has never succeeded in ending inner party political tensions. That they will break out into the open in some other form, and usually at the worst possible place and time is inevitable. The resulting inner party explosion/implosion, what ever form it takes, could well mark the end of the Green Party as a political force.

       Game set and match for the establishment.
       • weka 2.1.2.1

         8 June 2013 at 12:41 pm

         That you would take an article written by Armstrong of all people, as proof of the corruption of the GP, says alot about you Jenny.

         I’d like to put my earlier comment in context. It’s not that the GP will inevitably become corrupt. It’s that parliament, as it is at this point in time, is a culture that demands certain behaviours. The very nature of the adversarial system is that it undermines creative solutions and co-operation. People who come into parliament as MPs (and I would guess this is true of staff too), have to adapt to the culture or they won’t fit in/be able to gain anything for their party. While I hope that the GP can influence that culture for the better, I’m not sure that it’s their job to transform it.

         You look at people like Marilyn Waring, who got out early, and her contemporaries like Clark and Shipley, who stayed in. Waring once talked about what happened to women in parliament, the pressure to become something else. It was brutal. How do people survive that? Her contention was that some just get out, and those that stay get changed by the place. There is no way that Clark would have become PM if she hadn’t adapted in such a way as to be able to take power and use it.

         Sad, but true. You can see manifestations of that brutality here on ts, where it tends to be cruelty, both to each other, and towards politicians. What this means is that only the tough survive, both here and in parliament. And thus we lose the more sensitive people who would probably bring much to the table.

         Unless MPs are betraying their party, I think that we should be supporting them, and helping them find ways to survive the brutality as long as possible. They are doing us a service and should be acknowledged for that, not pilloried before they even get started (Jenny).
       • weka 2.1.2.2

         8 June 2013 at 12:42 pm

         “I on the other hand argue that this degeneration is not inevitable at all.”

         So tell use Jenny, how you think it can be avoided. Please give specific examples that work in the real world, not just your ideals.
         • Jenny 2.1.2.2.1

           8 June 2013 at 9:52 pm

           The Green Party IMHO are set on a well worn course for destruction. The question is: How will they avoid the fate of the Maori Party and the Alliance before them?

           First off the Green Party could announce that they will not go into coalition with any government that approves the Denniston Coal Mine or Deep Sea Oil Drilling off our coasts.
           • weka 2.1.2.2.1.1

             8 June 2013 at 11:57 pm

             Which would most likely mean they don’t get to be part of govt. I’m asking you how GP MPs could be part of a NZ govt and not be changed by the experience.
             • Jenny …

               9 June 2013 at 7:25 am

               First off the Green Party could announce that they will not go into coalition with any government that approves the Denniston Coal Mine or Deep Sea Oil Drilling off our coasts.

               Secondly give the Labour Party Confidence and Supply.
               If the Labour Party still want to proceed with wrecking the environment, the Greens need to let them know that they are on their own.

               Simple, clear, direct, principled. This will future proof the Green Party. As the coal and extreme oil schemes go sour.
             • Jenny …

               9 June 2013 at 7:35 am

               I’m asking you how GP MPs could be part of a NZ govt and not be changed by the experience.

               weka

               This question answers itself. The Green Party cannot be part of a government committed to Deep Sea Oil Drilling, and mining Denniston. And not be changed.
               • Jenny …

                 9 June 2013 at 7:41 am

                 It’s happening already.
   • karol 2.2

     8 June 2013 at 7:38 am

     Mr Armstrong tries a long bow, and drops the arrow on his foot.

     Would like to see a more sober account of the Green Party’s remit changes. But even the way it’s told by Armstrong, it doesn’t amount to anything like the anti-democratic practices of Key’s government or Muldoon.

     By all accounts, the motion to streamline the party’s antiquated remit system easily obtained the required 75 per cent backing to effect a change to the party’s standing orders.

     So that means the vote was well over 75%?

     And the “Green’s are thirsting for power”. …. who is using a less than measured tone there, Mr Armstrong, even as you blast Norman for the same, and ignore how much the right wing bloggers and Key use way less than measured tones when they launched the attack on the Greens?
     • scotty 2.2.1

       8 June 2013 at 8:03 am

       The bleeting coming from Armstrong and others over Norman calling Key , Muldoon , could end up biting the right in the bum.

       In over egging the situation , they’ve raise the bar , or at least drawn attention to the language used by politicians,

       This could have a stifling effect on Key , who relies heavily on put downs, and negative name calling etc.
     • Colonial Viper 2.2.2

       8 June 2013 at 11:59 am

       It’s very unlikely that party members voted to reduce the voice of their branches while strengthening the power of centralised control. Not saying it didn’t happen; its far more likely Armstrong has the wrong end of the stick.

       GP members here: please confirm.
     • phillip ure 2.2.3

       8 June 2013 at 12:42 pm

       http://whoar.co.nz/2013/green-party-central-strips-away-power-from-green-party-branches-as-party-hierachy-tighten-their-control-pre-coalition-ed-but-hey-they-are-only-formalising-already-de-facto-means-of-control/

       (excerpt:..”..so what will be changed..?..

       ..when it has always been thus in the green party..

       ..this is only formalising those de-facto power-realities..

       ..and as for party conferences being hotbeds of political/ideas-debate..?

       ..back then they were tightly controlled top-down-exercises..(with (now mp) delahunty being the enforcer of that control..)

       ..as with most/(all?) political conferences…the green party ones were also exercises in agenda-control/suppressing any dissent/idea-challenges..”)

       ..this is just an exercise in formalising the de-facto..

       phillip ure..
     • Jenny 2.2.4

       9 June 2013 at 8:36 am

       Would like to see a more sober account of the Green Party’s remit changes.

       karol

       Green Party Mt Eden branch convener Jeremy Hall said in the party newsletter Te Awa that there was irony to Greens’ holding a conference on democracy because its rule changes would make it near-impossible for branches to raise issues and participate in the internal democracy of the party.

       He added: “It will turn branches simply into volunteer units to just do fundraising, leafletting and campaigning, where their input into how the party is run will no longer be welcome.”

       The concerns came from a minority within the party – the remit was believed to have passed with around 80 per cent support.

       Isaac Davison NZ Herald
       Critic suspects change is aimed at blocking criticism of any coalition with Labour

       Green Party members vote to curtail their democracy by 80%

       80%?

       80 percent support for a vote to limit inner party democracy. The sad thing about such votes, is that by their nature they can not be revisited.

       But democracy is a funny thing, you suppress here, it pops up somewhere else, in some other form. Like that other great human impulse, it is as perennial as the grass.
   • David H 2.3

     8 June 2013 at 7:49 am

     And Armstrong is starting to come across a more than a little hysterical lately.
     Now we just have to wait for the hysterical screeching of the Nats number one fan boy, Roughan.
     • Paul 2.3.1

       8 June 2013 at 11:50 am

       Roughan represents the pits of print journalism in this country.
       • phillip ure 2.3.1.1

         8 June 2013 at 5:43 pm

         o’sullivan is also getting more and more ‘reds-under-beds!’ hysterical..

         ..her defence of key as not being muldoonist (published today) is to point at norman and go ‘nyah nyah..!..you are too..!’..

         ..the right seems to be getting more and more jangled..

         ..and what a stinking/corrupt govt this has become..

         ..dunne..and banks..

         ..and national/key knowing they probably won’t get back in again..

         ..are going gangbusters..

         ..stitching together all the dirty-deals they can..

         ..and key must be torn two ways at the moment..

         ..he is so bored/over it all..he must be dreading the long grind from now to election-time..

         ..he must want to go..

         ..but the other force is all that unfinished (privatisation/union-busting) business..

         ..which they have to cram /ram through between now and the next election..

         ..and tho’ that business-imperative is strong..

         ..i don’t think key is up personally for it all..

         ..a long/slow grind..to destination failure…

         ..that isn’t how key sees himself rolling..

         ..so those two pressures are grinding on key like clashing tectonic-plates..

         ..something’s gotta give..

         ..so i would still prepare for an early election..

         ..with maybe key not being there for that..

         ..phillip ure..
         • KJT 2.3.1.1.1

           8 June 2013 at 5:53 pm

           I read it as Key and co, knowing they will most likely lose the election, fucking things up as much as they can, and leaving the cupboard bare, so the incoming Government can change as little as possible.

           There is however also the imperative to deliver as much of the “commons” to their corporate funders as possible, before they get voted out to secure their retirement funding.
           The feather bedded directorships and sinecures they expect to get, with the private sector, as a reward for stealing from tax payers and wage earners.
           • ghostrider888 2.3.1.1.1.1

             8 June 2013 at 6:16 pm

             Yep.
           • phillip ure 2.3.1.1.1.2

             8 June 2013 at 6:23 pm

             @kjt..re yr first paragraph..i don’t know if it is necessarily that..i think it is just them doing what they promised..

             ..(i mean..i mean..!..did the moronic component of that massive majority opposed to selling our power assets/means into foreign ownership..who voted for national..

             ..did they think key/national were just joshing when they promised to do just that..?

             ..how was that for an epic-disconnect..?..on the part of those asset-selling opposed/voting national moron-component..?)

             ..yr second paragraph i totally agree with..with labour as enmeshed in that corrupt revolving-door process as national..

             ..with the neo-lib/randite-apologist ex labour party president williams..being a textbook example of a revolving-door too many..

             (if you doubt my assesment of williams..go to the radio new zealand archives..and pull up a couple of his recent appearances as .(wait for it!..)..a spokesperson for the left..(!)..)..(as someone else said:..’oh irony..!..thou art a harsh mistress..!’..)

             ..and looking back to the right-revolution..the then union uber-boss frantically/serially blinked..and just went and sat in the corner..as the right dismantled the welfare state/broke the union-movement..and he uttered not a whimper..

             ..(but he did do rather well out of it..like williams..seats on boards/honours etc..and both about as far from the shop-floor as you can get..)

             ..and the contrast with that union leader here of course is australia..

             ..where the union movement stood up and went ‘no yr fucken not..!’..

             ..(and what is the size of our wage-gap with aust..?…and growing..we are told..)

             ..that didn’t work out too well for us..did it..?..

             ..corruption takes many forms..it isn’t all envelopes stuffed with cash..slipped into pockets..

             ..our new zealand version is far more subtle..(sort of..)

             ..phillip ure..
             • Tim …

               8 June 2013 at 7:12 pm

               +1
               .. re williams
               .. (completely, totally, utterly)
   • muzza 2.4

     8 June 2013 at 9:01 am

     Scared, dogmatic, confused old man!

     Interesting how there is liitle by way of useful disucussion, which comes from the NZH, while its no surprise, its become very transparent, that all the NZH has to offer, is proarchial support for the owners, chosen governmnent!

     Its rather sad, to see society demoted to such a low level of, *informative debate*
     • karol 2.4.1

       8 June 2013 at 9:10 am

       Interesting also in how Armstrong is following the Lusk plan to pick up on and circulate propaganda begun on right wing blogs.
       • muzza 2.4.1.1

         8 June 2013 at 9:38 am

         Very true, Karol.

         Its the ,confuse, contain, control tactics geared up to prevent people from piecing together cogent views, and the decisions/actions, which might then follow changing view formation.

         It genuinely sadens me, this country is under such a ferocious attack, which is even more powerful incentive to stay vigilant, and up to speed.

         Its the primary reason I stay in touch sites such as this, for the angles/perspectives which don’t see the light of day elsewhere.
         • Seriously Susan 2.4.1.1.1

           8 June 2013 at 9:43 am

           +1 Muzza
       • saarbo 2.4.1.2

         8 June 2013 at 9:45 am

         yes, I reckon that the NZH/Armstrong/O Sullivan et al are very effective at creating a support base for National that would be better off voting Left. When you look at Slane’s cartoon on another post here it actually reflects the truth, but National’s support base is much larger than the very small/elite group that benefit from their policies.
         • Paul 2.4.1.2.1

           8 June 2013 at 11:53 am

           Actually the real damage is done by Radio stations like the Edge who insinuate the consumer culture into the young, invite Key along as their best mate etc.
           This is where the dumbing down of society is occurring.
           • saarbo 2.4.1.2.1.1

             8 June 2013 at 12:29 pm

             Probably a crosby textor strategy…

             doesn’t match this though:
             • Huginn …

               8 June 2013 at 8:19 pm

               (^=^)
           • ghostrider888 2.4.1.2.1.2

             8 June 2013 at 4:13 pm

             Get Hauraki and some Revolution Rock;
             
             and Rebel Waltz
             
       • Paul 2.4.1.3

         8 June 2013 at 11:51 am

         Maybe someone paid Lusk to pay him.
   • millsy 2.5

     8 June 2013 at 2:15 pm

     Now we have cold war hysteria from Hooten about communists in the Greens. Its going to be one hell of an 18 months, with the Green party on the wrong end of it. Im pretty sure that Key might even try and ban them (like Australia did with their communist party in the 1950’s).

     2014 is going to be an ugly election campaign. The neo-libs, god-botherers and RWNJs, along with the swivel-eyed loons are just getting warmed up.
3. logie97 3

   8 June 2013 at 7:17 am

   Of course the very system that Dunne appears to have leaked a report on probably has records of Dunne’s emails but cannot release them because that would confirm what Dunne was trying to expose. Spy vs Spy here?
   • Boadicea 3.1

     8 June 2013 at 11:38 am

     I’m inclined to agree with your theory Logie.

     Dunne has been played. His vulnerability and vanity has been used to make him impotent!

     The spy boys needed a fall guy, a distraction from the past screw ups and probably a third driver that has yet to appear.

     Winston is probably being played too, amd perhaps a bit knowlingly…. He is always for sale.

     And where has Shearer and Labour been in all this? AWOL

     Robertson on TV this morning repeated “if I was Prime Minister” three times. What a fucking boffoon.
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

       8 June 2013 at 11:52 am

       Robertson on TV this morning repeated “if I was Prime Minister” three times. What a fucking boffoon.

       Are you being serious? You didn’t mean Ross Robertson by any chance?
       • Boadicea 3.1.1.1

         8 June 2013 at 11:21 pm

         Ross Robertson was able to build his electorate and party vote. Definitely not to be confused with the Wellington Central “Robertson”.
         • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1

           8 June 2013 at 11:24 pm

           Possibly. But I also heard that there were fewer than 100 members in his electorate. Don’t know if that is accurate though.
   • freedom 3.2

     8 June 2013 at 2:31 pm

     If Dunne was trying to expose anything, that would be a valid reason to do what he has done. He has admitted several times that he has no good reason for what eventuated. Honey trapped buffoon who has far too many skeletons in his closet, absolutely . . . Valiant warrior battling evil, not so much.
4. Jenny 4

   8 June 2013 at 7:44 am

   On thursday June 5 weka and Jenny went toe to toe on how far the Green Party should be prepared to compromise to gain seats in a Labour led cabinet.

   So would you be happy if the GP went into govt and as part of that won an agreement from Labour to not mine Denniston?

   weka

   Weka, YES. Yes, I would. This would be a major concession from Labour. And major blow to the fossil fuel industry. Stopping Denniston would be a step forward in the war against climate change in this country. I would be overjoyed. I would be stunned if the Greens could win such a concession from the Labour Party.

   Jenny

   Can one of the Labour people here tell us if that would be a hard thing for Labour to give up?

   weka

   Yes, come on Labour Party people, tell us what you think.

   How about you Colonial Viper? How about you R0B? Or maybe lprent?
   Would any of you like to have a go at answering weka’s question?

   Maybe even EDDIE might like to share his opinion with us?

   Jenny

   To date. Not one of the Labour Party people here, have chosen to give up their opinion on this question.

   So I thought I would give them another opportunity .

   Would any Labour Party People here, like to venture an answer to weka’s question?

   Of course, an ominous silence could also count as an answer.
   • lprent 4.1

     8 June 2013 at 8:35 am

     Pretty obvious in my opinion. *Maybe*. Especially in the euphoria of coalition talks post election.

     If the Greens were willing to settle for a short term objective in lieu of something more substantive, then I think that Labour would happy to let them take the flak from the coasters. Labour MPs would undoubtedly prefer that Green MPs dissipated their political capital that way rather than in something more widespread like looking at the question of exploration and mining in conservation areas.

     I’m not so sure the Greens membership would be that happy after spending decades to get MPs into cabinet to be that concerned with a single bauble rather than a policy shift.

     Politics is the art of the possible and the careful use of painfully acquired political capital. I am pretty sure that was what was being discussed in the closed door sessions at the Greens conference last weekend.

     Like the others, I am working during the week. Explaining politics 201 isn’t high on my priority queue.
     • Jenny 4.1.1

       8 June 2013 at 9:48 am

       So it is a *Maybe* from lprent.

       Any other takers?

       What do you think CV?

       to not mine Denniston

       Can one of the Labour people here tell us if that would be a hard thing for Labour to give up?

       weka
     • weka 4.1.2

       8 June 2013 at 12:21 pm

       “Like the others, I am working during the week. Explaining politics 201 isn’t high on my priority queue.”

       I just assumed that by the time the conversation got to that point, no-one else was reading.

       “Politics is the art of the possible and the careful use of painfully acquired political capital.”

       Nice. I might have to quote that.
       • lprent 4.1.2.1

         10 June 2013 at 5:11 pm

         …no-one else was reading.

         I catch some of these older comments when I’m scanning for people talking to me. In this case the “lprent”.

         Nice. I might have to quote that

         You’re welcome to it. It is a paraphrase of something that I read or heard somewhere at some time. It is an accurate representation of the practice of politics.
   • Colonial Viper 4.2

     8 June 2013 at 12:37 pm

     How’s your pissing into the tent strategy working out Jenny?

     Anyway: when it comes to issues of Labour coalition agreements, I don’t deal in hypotheticals.
     • Jenny 4.2.1

       8 June 2013 at 10:24 pm

       One qualified maybe from lprent and a no-comment from Colonial Viper. It’s not looking good.

       So how about you Te Reo Putake?

       The question is; If the Green Party refuse to join any coalition which would approve the Denniston Coal Mine. Can you tell us, if that would be a hard thing for Labour to give up?
       • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1

         8 June 2013 at 11:25 pm

         You’re not part of the Greens. You’re not part of Labour.

         You have a real issue with being a self righteous and indignant busybody telling everyone else what they should be doing.
         • ghostrider888 4.2.1.1.1

           8 June 2013 at 11:43 pm

           The discussion on The Nation over the International Transfer of Prisoners was interesting; NZ the only OECD country not a signatory, in fact, the parts of the world that are really only excluded Africa and parts of Asia in the main. It is not politically palatable it seems to have these folk repatriated to serve their sentences, particularly for those chasing the conservative vote as the cost to the tax-payer would be humungous; 850 serving time in Aus, just for starters; that would be around a Billion dollars for the first year for them to be imprisoned here.
           Collins generalized that “they are drug dealers and rapists” (from the two featured) and that those in Aus had “lived all their lives there, paid there taxes there” blah blah. Aus keeps hitting NZ govt up about it. They are signatories
           http://www.ag.gov.au/Internationalrelations/Internationalcrimecooperationarrangements/TransferOfPrisoners/Pages/default.aspx

           Some under-arm return for not providing social security measures to kiwis over there. 😉

           Anyway, these tory Ministers may have professions to there name yet they sure appear thick!

           Next, a critique of the rise of the ‘victim’ culture; like monetary compensation is a reinforcer.
           😀
           • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1.1.1

             8 June 2013 at 11:47 pm

             NZ politicians, in general, have a super shit and 50 year outdated approach to Corrections.
       • weka 4.2.1.2

         9 June 2013 at 12:00 am

         “If the Green Party refuse to join any coalition which would approve the Denniston Coal Mine”

         Wow, you really don’t get what a coalition is do you. Do you honestly think it’s about the GP throwing down demands?
5. karol 5

   8 June 2013 at 8:12 am

   Phoebe Fletcher makes an excellent point today on the Daily Blog: the media storm around Dunne’s resignation is diverting big time from the extremely worrying changes to the GCSB legislation.

   I don’t really care about speculation over whether Dunne has done a Clinton. It’s not like he was instagramming his penis like US Senator Anthony Weiner – from all accounts it seems like a couple of tweets and some emails. The more important issue is the legislation, and the potential impact Dunne’s demotion will have on the coalition government. I don’t have to agree with every single statement that comes out of a politician’s mouth to support them on issues of confluence. It seems extraordinary to me that Norman on behalf of the Greens is calling for the police to investigate – it would be better to let Peters lead that line of attack, given that he has continually complained about the level of secrecy around the Security Committee. At the end of the day, it is not about a soap opera, it is about our rights as citizens. And this needs to be the focus of the opposition, not continuing the blood bath for political points.
   • muzza 5.1

     8 June 2013 at 9:10 am

     Indeed, the deflective glare is strong, the focus , hard as it is in this country, must remain on the legislation, because the *grid*, is tightening its grip!

     People think little to nothing, about smart meters, the UFB roll out etc, but these are part of the *grid*, and even now, privacy/freedom are concepts, relegated to the history books, never to be seen again, if people don’t get involved.
   • weka 5.2

     8 June 2013 at 12:24 pm

     Agree about the GP. They’re at risk of overplaying their hand here.

     There was some speculation on ts yesterday about why had Dunne actually resigned. Maybe this is it, he’s the diversion.
6. Sanctuary 6

   8 June 2013 at 9:07 am

   It occurs to me the latest blog post by Farrar is an outstanding example of how the government use him to try and control the media naarative. Effectively, he is trying to frame how the whole story around the demise of Dunne is told by lazy and/or time pressed journalists by providing in a nice, easy digestible format a whole narrative of the winners and losers. Very cunning, and highlights the lack of a comparable blog on the left.
   • Pasupial 6.1

     8 June 2013 at 9:42 am

     I would contend that The Standard itself is a blog comparable in influence to Kiwiblog, and further that; The Daily Blog is a rapidly emerging foil to WhaleOil (that there’s some long standing rivalry between Bradbury and Slater has long been evident; even on Tumeke – I imagine it goes back to uni days if not before). Personally, I don’t read either of the RWNJ blogs – life’s too short. Plus Kiwiblog just makes me feel manipulated (DPF is certainly good at what he does!), while WhaleOil makes me feel unclean (though I did have a glance over on Queen’s birthday weekend to savour the panic).

     That MSM journalists take their cues from Farrar and Slater probably has more to do with; editorial policies and lack of; time and resources, than; inaccesability of alternate viewpoints on the net.
7. Adrian 7

   8 June 2013 at 9:29 am

   Was the Dunne/Vance imbroglio a “honey trap” ( to quote an old cold war term )? And shouldn’t the morality and ethics of that be discussed? Admittedly for Herald and Dominion journalists they are almost certainly really big words they would need to look up.
   • Sanctuary 7.1

     8 June 2013 at 9:48 am

     No. An old guy with an unrequited woody for a younger woman does not constitute a “honey trap”.
8. ianmac 8

   8 June 2013 at 9:57 am

   Millhouse noted this last night.

   “The Independent
   The A-list conspiracy: Did Hollywood tell Obama to take down internet entrepreneur Kim Dotcom?
   As the infamous file-sharing mogul fights US extradition, Steve Anderson hears his lawyer’s claims of a murky connection between Washington and the movie industry.”

   In the UK they are seeing the implications of American big business being able to control politicians and the internet.

   http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-alist-conspiracy-did-hollywood-tell-obama-to-take-down-internet-entrepreneur-kim-dotcom-8648426.html
   • freedom 8.1

     8 June 2013 at 10:52 am

     Corporate-Political influence in the US is really fubar. It is a broken system. It actively encourages companies to hire people whose only job is to stand in a queue and hold that place until the salaried lobbyist shows up to tell the pretzel-spined politicians exactly what they are doing with their votes that day. We have our problems in NZ but we are not quite that far gone and I like to think we can resist a whilst longer.
9. Sanctuary 9

   8 June 2013 at 9:57 am

   On The Nation just now we saw Winston Peters making another series of accusations – that the Dunne emails also contained leaks of other information apart from the GCSB report, and that because of the nature of the leak (effectively a top secret document with limited “eyes only” distribution) the government came under pressure from our ECHELON allies to find out who the potential spy was. Peters also was unequivocally able to state they contained personally embarassing stuff on Dunne. Of course, Peters could be bluffing, but in this case I think he has clearly seen the unedited emails. So, where did Peters get those?

   Looks like the GCSB stitiched up Dunne to placate our allies concern over the leak, which raises yet more thorny questions about an agency that has clearly (Kim Dotcom, illegal spying, Dunne) gone rogue. Who is the master of this country, the GCSB (who can clearly access and leak anything about anyone who threatens their mana) or the politicians? Because at the moment, it looks like the spies are getting the politicians to dance to their tune.

   I wonder what they said to John Key to ensure the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill was to their liking?
   • Sanctuary 9.1

     8 June 2013 at 10:02 am

     PS I was astonished at how inept Rachel Smalley’s performance was. There was Winston Peters dangling all sorts of juicy tidbits – shadowy foreign pressure to find the leaker, additional sectet material being leaked – she relentless stuck to the pre-scripted panty-sniffing line about trying to find out if Dunne wanted to be a tampon, or something.
     • muzza 9.1.1

       8 June 2013 at 10:16 am

       Sanctuary – The *presenters*, are simply there to ensure the narrative is controlled, and it is, by the producers.

       No need to be astonished, this is what the MSM is designed to do, except that sadly its seems in NZ, we have plumbed even lower depths.

       Smalley, not all that long ago had some promise, but over the past 3-6 months, she has become as debased, as the like of Corin Dann, and the other puppets!
       • TheContrarian 9.1.1.1

         8 June 2013 at 11:15 am

         Muzza – All fucking talk no fucking facts.
         • Paul 9.1.1.1.1

           8 June 2013 at 12:02 pm

           The media repeat what they are told to write. Everyone with a modicum of curiosity and critical thinking cano see that.
           You want evidence TC? Iraq and WMD.
           My question to you.
           Why are you such a relentless defender of the corporate elite?
           • TheContrarian 9.1.1.1.1.1

             8 June 2013 at 12:52 pm

             “My question to you.
             Why are you such a relentless defender of the corporate elite?”

             Sorry to answer a question with a question but “Huh?”

             “Everyone with a modicum of curiosity and critical thinking cano see that.”

             Critical thinking =/= believing anything based purely on your say so.

             Facts, references, cites and evidence. Please provide,
             • Paul …

               8 June 2013 at 1:07 pm

               The media copied the story told them about Iraq having WMD
               http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3036750/ns/msnbc-documentaries/vp/50736581
               Can be sourced in multiple places………
               Why do you defend the elite?
               • TheContrarian …

                 8 June 2013 at 1:31 pm

                 Pointing out stupid conspiracy fallacies =/= Defending the elite
                 • Paul …

                   8 June 2013 at 1:39 pm

                   If you look at your posts that is not what you do on this site…….
                   • TheContrarian …

                     8 June 2013 at 2:00 pm

                     But at least I don’t make completely erroneous statements about imaginary foes based purely on ill informed rhetoric gleaned from conspiracy sites and crank doctors.
                   • muzza …

                     8 June 2013 at 3:01 pm

                     But at least I don’t make completely erroneous statements about imaginary foes based purely on ill informed rhetoric gleaned from conspiracy sites and crank doctors.

                     Is that, really how you see yourself bro?
                   • TheContrarian …

                     8 June 2013 at 4:17 pm

                     “Is that, really how you see yourself bro?”

                     No, it’s how I see you.
                   • muzza …

                     8 June 2013 at 6:14 pm

                     TC, can you point to the conspiracy sites, which I personally , have linked to on here, you have a problem with.

                     If you can locate any such links, give your reasoning, why you have a problem, and try to avoid becoming a parody of your handle name, in the process, eh!

                     Think you can manage all that?
                   • TheContrarian …

                     9 June 2013 at 12:48 am

                     Hey muzza,
                     facts?
         • muzza 9.1.1.1.2

           8 June 2013 at 2:56 pm

           TC – You making it personal now bro?

           So agressive, and angry sounding, you taking anything to manage it?

           I’d suggest avoiding alcohol!
           • TheContrarian 9.1.1.1.2.1

             8 June 2013 at 4:25 pm

             It’s just my Morgellons acting up again.
10. weta 10

    8 June 2013 at 11:22 am

    Things are getting interesting across the Tasman Ditch ..

    “Rudd blitz begins as host of Labor MPs back a national tour”
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/rudd-blitz-begins-as-host-of-labor-mps-back-a-national-tour/story-fnii5s3y-1226659596090

    and

    http://news.google.com.au/news/rtc?ncl=dpBheRHTARv3I4MW21X_3qszqa4GM&topic=h&ar=1370645967
    • Murray Olsen 10.1

      9 June 2013 at 12:28 am

      You can’t believe a thing you read in Murdoch’s rags. The Guardian, which has just started up in Oz, contains a lot less fantasy. According to Murdoch, they might as well save money and not even have the election because Abbott has already won in a landslide. I hope not, because while Gillard is about as left as Key, Abbott makes John Banks look balanced.
      • agora 10.1.1

        9 June 2013 at 6:20 am

        Yeah, but who’s laughing right now ?

        http://www.smh.com.au/national/rudd-backers-frolic-as-pm-loses-her-grip-20130607-2nviv.html
        • Murray Olsen 10.1.1.1

          9 June 2013 at 7:45 pm

          Probably Gina Stoneheart, at anyone who thinks the Fairfax media isn’t just a crude big mining propaganda bulletin.
          Did I get it right?
11. quasimodo 11

    8 June 2013 at 11:38 am

    .. and in Ye Olde Countrie

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/06/lord-ashcroft-we-cant-afford-to-waste-another-six-months.html
12. Colonial Viper 12

    8 June 2013 at 11:47 am

    Canada: undemocratic political behaviour of a petrostate

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjl3kgduA3I
13. Chooky 13

    8 June 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Colonel Viper . Thanks for that link to Andrew Nikifororuk on the characteristics of a Petro State.

    Suddenly it all becomes explainable. With fracking and oil drilling in the offing in the Canterbury Basin both on land and at sea…. and the strange undemocratic manoeuverings of the National Government eg.

    * extensive GCSB powers to spy on ordinary NZers,
    * outlawing of environmental protest where it affects economic corporate activity( whether this be harmful for NZers environment or not),
    * promotion of education dumbing down and no standards for charter schools ( undermining a fine NZ education tradition of egalitarian , high quality , state funded , secular education, which promotes critical thinking and scholarship for all)
    * ousting of the democratically elected Environment Canterbury away from Cantabrians’ voting control and into the hands of National Government appointed commissioners.
    * the prolonged state of emergency in Christchurch and power and control wrested away from the City Council and Christchurch residents.

    All NZers should watch this video and be warned of what could be in store!
    • ghostrider888 13.1

      8 June 2013 at 4:26 pm

      see more on Petrostates in the ‘Slane sums up’ thread.
14. prism 14

    8 June 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Interesting interviews on Radionz today. The last one was from Jaron Lanier who explains how he changed his mind about making the web accessible and free to all, as he now sees that the benefits of this are being scooped up by those with the biggest computers. And lots more of intelligent stuff.

    He is great to listen to, a lively speaker and thinker and a great laugh. Still with a sense of humour, someone to treasure and pay attention to.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thiswayup
    (Who Owns the Future – book)
    Jaron Lanier radionz 1.40pm Sat 8/6
    • Populuxe1 14.1

      8 June 2013 at 4:19 pm

      Lanier is a miserable whiney bore who is just pissy that the web has left him behind and his precious digital utopia never came about because people would rather watch porn and exchange recipies for meatloaf.
      • pollywog 14.1.1

        8 June 2013 at 4:24 pm

        he makes shitty tunes too.
      • ghostrider888 14.1.2

        8 June 2013 at 4:30 pm

        Excellent Gingerbread recipe;
        -cream butter and sugar
        -add 1 egg
        -add molasses
        -add flour, baking soda, salt
        -add cloves, cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, grated lemon.
        Mix
        Chill
        Roll into a log on gladwrap (or generic).
        Bake at 180 Degrees celsius, 15-20 minutes.
        😀
15. pollywog 15

    8 June 2013 at 2:36 pm

    A free colostomy bag if you can spot what’s wrong with this sentence…

    Breton Grove resident Marc Nicholas and his Priscilla Cres neighbour Gavin Forman were evacuated from their homes with their families when the slip struck at 4.30am last Saturday.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8771257/Slip-victims-Where-did-the-water-come-from
    • fender 15.1

      8 June 2013 at 3:01 pm

      Neighbours with different street names, but looking on map it appears they are on a corner.

      or, the article attributes wrong houses to these residents i.e. : Gavin Formans’ house is in Breton Gr.

      If I’m correct, you can keep the bag.

      I feel for the family without insurance in this very sad event.
      • pollywog 15.1.1

        8 June 2013 at 3:15 pm

        Sadly, and indicative of shitty journalistic standards…but no

        the clue is in the bag 🙂
        • RedLogix 15.1.1.1

          8 June 2013 at 3:24 pm

          And at this point I have to say I’m not ‘highly confident’ about this claim:

          Wellington City Council city networks manager Stavros Michael said he was “highly confident” the water main had nothing to do with the landslide. Council staff went to check reports of a leak on Friday night, and booked in to do the repairs on Saturday morning. A small hairline fracture was found then.

          “There was no indication that the leak had been going for more than a matter of hours.”

          I’m thinking that Mr Michael’s staff may have indeed found a hairline crack on the Friday night, but they’ve missed, or are covering up for something much larger. Much better for the man to have withheld comment until all the evidence was in. Because at this early stage such an unsupported claim just looks horribly self-serving.
          • pollywog 15.1.1.1.1

            8 June 2013 at 4:03 pm

            I concur…
        • Populuxe1 15.1.1.2

          8 June 2013 at 4:21 pm

          Oh for an Oxford comma or two
      • pollywog 15.1.2

        8 June 2013 at 4:12 pm

        I wouldn’t want my family to be evacuated in a landslip. The house we were in ?…sure, but damned if i’m gonna let a team suck the shit out of me and mine in an emergency.
        • McFlock 15.1.2.1

          8 June 2013 at 4:59 pm

          another example of the lack of subeditors.
          • ghostrider888 15.1.2.1.1

            8 June 2013 at 5:05 pm

            Hay, Clover, name-checked your worthy self in the ‘Slane sums up’ thread. Bah, Hmmm.
            -Bug
            • McFlock 15.1.2.1.1.1

              8 June 2013 at 6:00 pm

              good cartoon, but the comments seem to be a bit earnest for my current mood.
              • ghostrider888 …

                8 June 2013 at 6:18 pm

                Weekend Blues (Sunday afternoon on Bay FM). 😀
                • McFlock …

                  8 June 2013 at 6:33 pm

                  nah – more enjoying a quiet day without too much thought. Busy week.
                  • ghostrider888 …

                    8 June 2013 at 6:38 pm

                    mindfulness (or a wee dram). Better go “cook tea” now (before witnessing all the wasted human life (fatalities, local and international) on the box.).
                    Kind regards, bet it was a cold week down there too.
16. Morrissey 16

    8 June 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Daytime TV Review
    Three Wise Men discuss “Relationship Woes”

    Hands up all those who cannot abide Willie Jackson!

    Okay, okay, but first I need to tell you something about a program he featured on the other day….

    Good Morning, TV1, 9:10 a.m., Tuesday 4 June 2013
    Relationship Woes, a Men’s Panel discussion featuring Wallace Chapman, Miles Davis and Willie Jackson

    Trashy television has its charms. Take TV1’s ailing Good Morning program, for instance. Last year, host Jeanette Thomas got hypnotized on air, performed the haka, conducted an imaginary orchestra with a raw chicken, tried to seduce Tom Cruise and had a go at pole dancing. And all of that happened in just one morning’s episode. Over the years, one of the perverse highlights, or lowlights, for this writer, i.e. moi, was watching the perplexed, slightly hostile look on the dial of macho man Brendon Pongia as Steve Gray gave his movie reviews.

    Despite all this top quality entertainment, however, Good Morning has been cursed with low ratings, and as a result it has been cut back this year from three hours to just one—from 9 to 10 o’clock.

    Today the coiffured blond host, whose name I could not ascertain even after extensive hunting, introduced a semi-serious panel discussion, about Relationship Woes. The three “talents” chosen for the task were lovable and impish professional boy-man Wallace Chapman, professional cheeky cockney chappy Miles Davis, and professional cheeky Maori fulla Willie Jackson.

    Here are the highlights…..

    MILES DAVIS: You have to admit that ninety-nine per cent of the time the woman is the one in the right.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Yeah, but you don’t want to be a male doormat.
    MILES DAVIS: [accentuating the East End wide-boy accent] I’m no’ a doormat.

    ………

    WILLIE JACKSON: Ya see, the problem with you Wallace is, it’s all academic, it’s all P.C. with you. You can’t solve relationships with an academic approach and it’s SHOCKING really.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: [diffidently and sensitively] I-I-I-I…
    MILES DAVIS: Talk to us, Wozza!
    HOST: We’re going to continue our debate on relationships and the blame game with THESE GUYS, after THIS.

    ……….

    Shark Steam Mop advert….

    WOMAN: What?!!??!? Nine ninety-nine?!!!!??!?? You’ve gone MAD!!!!
    MAN: I’ve gone C-R-R-RAAAZY!

    ……….

    BLOND HOST: Well, we’re back with the Men’s Panel discussing Relationship Woes. Wallace, you were talking about your kayaking session.

    Wallace Chapman embarks on a long and terribly dull story about going kayaking with his family. Nothing at all seems to have happened, but apparently it was very important for strengthening his family relationships. At least that’s what he reckons. After he finishes talking, there is a long awkward silence….

    HOST: That’s it?
    WILLIE JACKSON: Terrible story.
    MILES DAVIS: Ha ha ha ha ha!

    …….

    Later on, Miles Davis talks about how it is possible to argue constructively with one’s wife or partner. This attempt at sensitivity is quickly scotched by Willie Jackson, who has no patience for such displays of SNAGgery….

    WILLIE JACKSON: It just gets WORSE!!!! Next thing you’re into a PUNCH-UP!!!!!

    Jackson’s main gig these days is the Radio Live program he hosts with the equally erudite John Tamihere. Several years ago, Willie and JT had dwarf-boxing impesario Dean Lonergan on to talk sensitively and learnedly on the subject of marital infidelity. Both Deano and JT made it clear that there was no excuse for violence against any woman, even if one came home one day midway through the afternoon to find her in bed with, say, half the ACT caucus. Willie Jackson, though, was having none of that P.C. nonsense. “If I found out that my missus was fooling around on me,” he said, with quiet sincerity, “I’d put a knife through her heart.”

    This shocked even the crass and offensive Lonergan, who felt moved to remonstrate: “I think that’s going a bit far, mate.”

    Willie didn’t back down an inch, however. “Nah, nah, nah—don’t give me THAT,” he said, without even a hint of his usual playfulness. “I would. I would put a knife through her heart. I WOULD.”

    JT snorted sardonically and laughed, “You’re a mongrel, Willie, a mongrel.”

    All right, you can put your hands down now.
    • ghostrider888 16.1

      8 June 2013 at 4:52 pm

      interestingly, I have an aquaintence (aquainted with his whanau as well) and he did take a tomahawk to the man, in bed with his wife; 4 years later, upon release, no wife. sigh, was getting muscle fatigue keeping my arm up.
      • Morrissey 16.1.1

        8 June 2013 at 7:25 pm

        Blinking hell, ghostrider! Can you spin that out into a dramatic reconstruction for us? It sounds like a riveting story.
        • ghostrider888 16.1.1.1

          8 June 2013 at 9:12 pm

          sigh, I do have a volume or three of actual / factual stories to tell, I know, as many of us do; fortunately, or other wise, many of them are memorable, yet Robert Plant (another Rock god) advised to keep on rolling and resist writing a book…and I DO NOT YET OWN A WORKING COMPUTER OF MY OWN…yet when it does happen, it could be a lot worse than a hybrid of The Bone People and Tough Guys Don’t Dance with a little Child In Time wound in. 😉 yeeha!
17. ghostrider888 17

    8 June 2013 at 5:43 pm

    Al-Qaeda, and post-Assad Syria
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10889164
18. ghostrider888 18

    8 June 2013 at 6:29 pm

    and from the Business desk;
    the diluting of the Infant Formula brand
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889176
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business-editors-picks/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501981&objectid=10889015 (greed cannot help itself. a New Image? Don’t think so Murry).

    “Farming the Elderly”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889082
    (retirement eats capital).

    Chocolate Aeroplane 😉 wings
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889079
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889128
    (price-fixing).

    Fonterra share, unit prices, shake-up.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/agriculture/news/article.cfm?c_id=16&objectid=10888777
    (spilt milk).
19. Morrissey 19

    8 June 2013 at 9:21 pm

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 18: Ant Strachan

    “It’s all about defence! Y’ know, the All Blacks won the World Cup in 2011 because of their outstanding defence!”

    —Ant Strachan, Radio Sport, 75 minutes into the New Zealand-France friendly, Saturday 8 June 2013

    See also….
    No. 17: Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.
    No. 16: Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months”
    No. 15: Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    No. 14: Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    No.13: Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

    Open mike 27/05/2013

    
    No. 12: U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    No. 11: Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
    No. 10: Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    No. 9: NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    No. 8: Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question”
    No. 7: Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
    
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
    
No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    
No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594

    No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

    No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    
No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
    
No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”
20. weka 20

    9 June 2013 at 1:14 am

    I just hope that tomorrow (Sun) someone puts up an interesting enough post or two that we can stop talking about fluoridation and conspiracy theories :-/

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