Open mike 08/10/2015

107 comments on “Open mike 08/10/2015”

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1. Tony Veitch 1

   8 October 2015 at 6:29 am

   In the words of Eliza Dolittle, My Fair Lady:

   Words! Words! I’m so sick of words!
   I get words all day through;
   First from him, now from you! Is that all you blighters can do?

   Don’t talk at all! Show me!
   Never do I ever want to hear another word.
   There isn’t one I haven’t heard.

   Don’t wait until wrinkles and lines
   Pop out all over my brow,
   Show me now!

   This TPPA thing has got beyond words – I want some action (peaceful, of course!)
   I want to let this f. awful government know that not all New Zealanders can be so blatantly disregarded! I want to march and shout some slogans.
   I marched down Riccarton Road on a miserably wet day in September; now I want to do so again!
   And I want to do so as much for my own self-respect as anything. I want to be able to look my grandchildren in the eyes when this country had completely gone to the dogs and say – “I fought against the foreign takeover of our country!”
   I marched in 1981 and have always had a warm feeling about that – though I admit to being frightened at the time. I have put my name down for the climate change march in November – does that qualify me for Key’s ‘rent-a-crowd’ one third?
   This has got beyond words – let’s have some action! Show me how! And when!

   • Rosemary McDonald 1.1

     8 October 2015 at 9:39 am

     “…does that qualify me for Key’s ‘rent-a-crowd’ one third?”

     ….and “misinformed”
     ….and “politically irrelevant”

     What did ‘is nibs say about ‘third term arrogance’?

   • Rosie 1.2

     8 October 2015 at 9:40 am

     Onya Tony. I’m a “rent a crowd” third too. And a Labour and Green voter, so am another third according to Key. Who do we invoice for services provided to promote democracy btw? Cos, you know, in Key’s world, everything is for sale.

     FYI. I spoke to a friend who is involved in the organisation around TPP. Like you, I’m keen to get out there again. As far as I know there isn’t anything in the pipeline as yet – BUT, there will be. Thats for sure.

     I think it’s possible that organisers are holding off until we have access to the text of all 30 chapters. Once we have that information we plan strategy for activity. Thats just my theory.

     Listening to Alistair Thompson on Scoop Politics on Radio Active this morning – he mentioned that without knowing the full content of the deal we are really only shadow boxing. I thought that was good way of looking at at. It’s not until the deal gets tabled in congress that we and the other 11 countries get to know the content, and thats thirty days after.

     I think there will be a delay before we hit the streets again.

     Don’t hold off organising your own local march though 😀

     PS: Do you keep an eye on Action Station? They were involved in co organising the last march. Sing up and receive their email news.

     • tracey 1.2.1

       8 October 2015 at 4:08 pm

       according to Groser we all think “the TPP eats babies”. No hysterical rhetoric there then, the deal clearly stands on its own merits.

2. vto 2

   8 October 2015 at 7:20 am

   Did Key really use the words “goddam awful place” ??

   what a dick

   • RedBaronCV 2.1

     8 October 2015 at 7:48 am

     From yesterday’s stories it sounds like he did.

     Other than that the rest of the stories seemed to focus on “how hard it for poor Mr Key & the rest of the party to get there and how unpleasant it had all been”.

     Left the lasting impression that it was all about me, me ,me… look how tough I had it but zero empathy for the people who have to live their lives there.

   • Ffloyd 2.2

     8 October 2015 at 8:05 am

     And I bet he said Gaaaad Dayam Arful place and then spit on the ground. GI Johnny, our own Yankey.

   • Lanthanide 2.3

     8 October 2015 at 8:38 am

     TV1 6pm news bulletin lead with the line. I thought it was a bit on the nose for a 6pm broadcast, but I guess we’re not that god faring any more.

     bf said that because they were quoting the leader of the nation, they were allowed to say it.

     • maui 2.3.1

       8 October 2015 at 10:18 am

       I think the TV1 audience can put up with almost anything if they can embrace Hosking. Just dont mention Hager, Assange et al. Red rag to a bull.

   • tracey 2.4

     8 October 2015 at 4:10 pm

     and Corin Dann (sp) was almost breathless with his excitement at being in a war zone… reminds me why I prefer Mike McRoberts. The coverage struck me as highlighting that it’s all about

     The PM (as it should be); and
     The journalist

     In no particular order

3. grumpystilskin 3

   8 October 2015 at 8:10 am

   Good to see most aren’t buying the pro tpp rhetoric from our media and pointing out the downsides to journo’s..
   For example, have a read of the replies to fran o’sullivans article in yesterdays herald.
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11524807

   • vto 3.1

     8 October 2015 at 8:26 am

     Old neoliberal farts like Fran O’Sullivan and John Key really do seem to believe their own bullshit, in an almost religious fervour. It is like they cannot abide any alternative views. Their minds cannot fathom that there are other ways of structuring society and trade. They are stuck in a time warp.

     They are well past their use-by date (the 1990’s)

     • savenz 3.1.1

       8 October 2015 at 8:43 am

       +1 vto

       • Rodel 3.1.1.1

         8 October 2015 at 10:51 am

         The replies to Fran Osullivan’s adulatory sycophancy are worth reading.No rants – just calm critiques.

4. Manuka AOR 4

   8 October 2015 at 8:26 am

   Doctors Without Borders are calling for an independent investigation into the hospital airstrike in which a dozen doctors were killed, – 22 people in all, including adult and child patients:
   http://abcnews.go.com/International/doctors-borders-calls-independent-probe-deadly-kunduz-hospital/story?id=34310266

   “In Kunduz, our patients burned in their beds. MSF doctors, nurses and other staff were killed as they worked. Our colleagues had to operate on each other.”

   “Today, we say enough. Even war has rules.”

   More on the ever-changing nature of the official story here: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/doctors-without-borders-airstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again

   • savenz 4.1

     8 October 2015 at 8:49 am

     +100 Manuka AOR – would be keen to see further analysis of this on the Standard too.

     It seems unfathomable that the USA can just murder (either deliberately or by accident) so many doctors, patients and other staff at the hospital and the international community does nothing. Is this the international and media response – Meh?

     Even if the MSM seem reluctant to report it properly with analysis I hope the blogs can look at it.

     Look at what the difference when a muslim kills someone in Paris – massive widespread international condemnation and dialogue – funeral with all the international dignitaries invited (and some who were not).

     What the F is wrong with the world?

     • Manuka AOR 4.1.1

       8 October 2015 at 9:24 am

       And in a sad irony, Docs without Borders are vocal opponents of the TPP:
       ” the TPP will still go down in history as the worst trade agreement for access to medicines in developing countries, which will be forced to change their laws to incorporate abusive intellectual property protections for pharmaceutical companies.”

       ” As the trade agreement now goes back to the national level for countries’ final approval, we urge all governments to carefully consider before they sign on the dotted line whether this is the direction they want to take on access to affordable medicines and the promotion of biomedical innovation. The negative impact of the TPP on public health will be enormous, be felt for years to come, and will not be limited to the current 12 TPP countries, as it is a dangerous blueprint for future agreements.”
       http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/statement-msf-conclusion-tpp-negotiations-atlanta

   • One Two 4.2

     8 October 2015 at 10:51 am

     Perhaps the hospital was deliberately targeted due to DWB opposition to TPPA

5. Wairua 5

   8 October 2015 at 8:35 am

   Key must have been in Iraq when it approved cruise missile transit to Syria.

   Does this mean we declare war on Russia ?

   Peter Sellers once made a film called ‘The Mouse that Roared’ ..
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared_(film)

6. Tautoko Mangō Mata 6

   8 October 2015 at 8:46 am

   @Tony Veitch
   My initial reaction to the signing was exactly like yours. I have managed to push my anger down to a level where I can do now think more rationally and make better plans to fight this more effectively.
   The current situation is this:
   1.Only the trade issues have been revealed.
   2. The Herald in particular is doing the soft-sell PR job for Groser, Key
   3. The ISDS, the selling of land to foreigners and minimal dairy gains are really the only negative issue that are out in the public domain.
   4. The fine print fishhooks have yet to be revealed so the arguments surrounding these cannot be had to inform the general public of the negative consequences.
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11525498

   I think we will need to take to the streets but the events need to be well planned, well publicised, with all groups co-ordinating, similar to the big antimining march in Auckland. It needs to be after the text is released so the negatives are indisputably out there so the public can see that we are not just a pack of angry feral, left wing nutters but have damn good reasons for marching and what’s more, they want to join in because they agree.

   In the meantime, we need to educate those around us as more information comes to light, get people involved in planning placards, street theatre, ready for the big marches.
   5. Let’s all learn the lyrics of Twisted Sister’s “We’re not Gonna Take It”
   Oh We’re Not Gonna Take It
   no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It
   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

   we’ve Got The Right To Choose And
   there Ain’t No Way We’ll Lose It
   this Is Our Life, This Is Our Song
   we’ll Fight The Powers That Be Just
   don’t Pick Our Destiny ’cause
   you Don’t Know Us, You Don’t Belong

   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It
   no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It
   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

   oh You’re So Condescending
   your Gall Is Never Ending
   we Don’t Want Nothin’, Not A Thing From You
   your Life Is Trite And Jaded
   boring And Confiscated
   if That’s Your Best, Your Best Won’t Do

   oh…………………
   oh…………………
   we’re Right/yeah
   we’re Free/yeah
   we’ll Fight/yeah
   you’ll See/yeah

   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It
   no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It
   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It
   no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It
   oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore
   no Way!

   source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/werenotgonnatakeitlyrics.html

   • savenz 6.1

     8 October 2015 at 8:49 am

     +1

     • savenz 6.1.1

       8 October 2015 at 8:56 am

       I also think there should be a consumer campaign run too. For example buy no milk products day, buy no meat day, buy nothing day, buy no overseas goods day etc.

       Don’t go to Bunnings are get that garden hose etc.

       Now that money is the new god and lobbyists are the messengers, when the end consumer fights the money, the lobbyists start listening.

       This is what happened in the 90’s with cruelty free animal testing – consumers stopped buying and changed the way the company did business.

       As voters democracy might be gone, but as consumers we still have choice and a lot of ability to damage corporations.

       • savenz 6.1.1.1

         8 October 2015 at 8:59 am

         If Kiwis stop buying stuff for a month (use car less etc) that will scare the pants off the Nats and be great for the environment too.

         • vto 6.1.1.1.1

           8 October 2015 at 9:46 am

           go places without taking money or plastic with you

           it is very refreshing

           F R E E D O M ! !

       • grumpystilskin 6.1.1.2

         8 October 2015 at 9:12 am

         Turn off the TV, that’s your biggest corporate agent.
         Seriously, do it. Your desire for new widgets will soon disappear.

         • Sabine 6.1.1.2.1

           8 October 2015 at 9:27 am

           + a billion or so.

         • Nigel Gregory 6.1.1.2.2

           8 October 2015 at 9:37 am

           +1
           Not only that but your tolerance for people shouting at you really declines….

         • savenz 6.1.1.2.3

           8 October 2015 at 9:38 am

           @Grumpystilskin – already mostly stopped watching TV. Don’t watch TV news anymore although I have heard early morning news is a lot better than 6pm.

           Also another thought, don’t use the phone day.

           I’m no economist but not consuming anything for one day (banks also affected) would wipe off millions in the economy I would have thought. A powerful message.

           Get onto the US – if the US consumer stopped consuming for one day – the lobbyists would have a heart attack. No TPP.

         • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1.2.4

           8 October 2015 at 10:20 am

           I fear it will be an uphill battle to deflect the faithful from their pilgrimages to worship at the alter of the Great God of Shop.

           http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72592453/shoppers-flock-to-aucklands-new-northwest-mall

           Telly is rubbish. haven’t watched it for ages. I visually filter out all advertising.

           When the I search for a particular product to buy and the google picks that up and bombards me with pop up ads…I do a search for something REALLY obscure.

           Like “buy submarine”.

           Try it. Hilarious.

         • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.2.5

           8 October 2015 at 2:15 pm

           +1

           That is the big one. Get rid of the TV and a lot of the worst manipulation goes away.

   • Tony Veitch 6.2

     8 October 2015 at 9:43 am

     Thank you TMM – your response, and those of the others, are just what I needed – a boost to my flagging enthusiasm. This fight is far from over!
     I shall be emailing all the Green, NZ First and Labour MPs in the Christchurch area, letting them know that support of the TPP will have electoral consequences.
     I shall be spreading the word as far as I am able among my friends and family – and yes, also waiting until the nasty aspects of this agreement can no longer be hidden from the public.
     But let’s get the people who planned the September marches on board again – make it bigger and more emphatic and really stick it to this (to paraphrase jonkey) goddam awful government!

     • Rosie 6.2.1

       8 October 2015 at 9:58 am

       “But let’s get the people who planned the September marches on board again – make it bigger and more emphatic and really stick it to this (to paraphrase jonkey) goddam awful government!”

       Hi Tony. Not sure if you saw my response to you at 1.2. There WILL be action 😀

       You’re right, the fight is far from over. There is just a pause for gathering strength and planning the next steps. From what I hear some of the organisers are quite exhausted because they have been involved intensively in the anti TPP movement for three years now.

       • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.1

         8 October 2015 at 10:33 am

         Well I wish you all good luck, I don’t think you lot will change anything but at least you’re doing something you believe in and thats good

         • Rosie 6.2.1.1.1

           8 October 2015 at 11:48 am

           I don’t know if it will either PR. Our Government’s mind is made up, and Grocer wouldn’t wear the shame of NZ not singing to the deal.

           Then again, there is so much that may be revealed in the coming months, that maybe the government may find they have a riot on their hands. Even the placid and sleepy might even go “Huh?”

           If Congress does ratify this, meaning we then go ahead, then it becomes a very important point in our history. There has to be a reaction to that.

           • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.1.1.1

             8 October 2015 at 11:54 am

             What will most likely happen in the upcoming months is NZ will see theres more benefits then negatives and eventually everyone will wonder what the big deal was

             • maui …

               8 October 2015 at 12:05 pm

               An interesting take from Planet Key.

             • Rosie …

               8 October 2015 at 12:38 pm

               Yep. Righto PR…………….. 🙄

             • tracey …

               8 October 2015 at 12:52 pm

               I opposed it because I don’t buy Wayne Mapp’s notion that secrecy was required to secure negotiating positions. John Key recently admitted that we, and our allies, spy on each other for commercial reasons. Therefore, no one had a secret negotiating position. ALL governments leak information that suits them. Labour did, National does and so on. So WHY the secrecy this time?

               Wayne Mapp says dissenters who NEVER supported a FTA can be discounted cos they have always opposed but won’t address the corollary, that someone who NEVER opposes one is equally as questionable ( on his logic).

               Kelsey has been very clear that she opposes the opening of the door to erosion of soveriegn decision-making through a closed door tribunal made up of former or current corporate lawyers, with no chance of Appeal.

               Fair questions to ask I would have thought.

               Key says we won’t be sued. BUT he hasn’t told us what he bases that on. There is plenty of evidence that other governments have been sued. There is NO history of such suing in the FTA’s we are in… but some of the countries we are now climbing into bed with DO have a history of suing under those clauses. THAT is a significant difference.

               • Draco T Bastard …

                 8 October 2015 at 2:21 pm

                 So WHY the secrecy this time?

                 That’s easy – they didn’t want the people to know by how much they’re being sold out for until after it was done.

                 Key says we won’t be sued.

                 Key knows that’s a lie. The ISDS wouldn’t be in there if we weren’t going to be sued.

             • Draco T Bastard …

               8 October 2015 at 2:19 pm

               That can’t possibly happen as there’s essentially no benefits and lots and lots of downsides.

       • Tony Veitch 6.2.1.2

         8 October 2015 at 11:16 am

         Thanks Rosie – am looking forward to doing something concrete and effective to stop this travesty of democracy going any further.

         • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.2.1

           8 October 2015 at 11:21 am

           Labour started this and the people voted them in, National continued it and the people voted them in, its a bugger when democracy doesn’t work exatcly how you want it to work

           • maui 6.2.1.2.1.1

             8 October 2015 at 12:43 pm

             Pretty sure you wouldn’t know democracy if you fell over it.

             • KJT …

               8 October 2015 at 3:32 pm

               Democracy. = All citizens decide..

               It is not , when, for example asset thefts, sorry, sales! continue when 80% are opposed

           • tracey 6.2.1.2.1.2

             8 October 2015 at 12:47 pm

             Are you suggesting the people who voted for National and Labour knew what they would get from a TPP? Or something else?

             It’s far too early to say if NZ got a good or bad or something-else deal. As long as only one party has the information and is releasing it selectively no voter is in a position to judge anything.

           • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2.1.3

             8 October 2015 at 2:35 pm

             What you describe is not democracy – it’s elected dictatorship.

             If we’d gone with what the people wanted we wouldn’t be in the TPPA – we would have dropped out of it years ago:

             http://itsourfuture.org.nz/opinion-polls-show-pm-out-of-touch-with-public-on-tppa/
             http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1212/S00004/poll-shows-most-nzers-want-to-end-secret-tppa-negotiations.htm
             poll: Benefit?

             The majority of NZers understand that the TPPA will be bad for us and that the only winners from it will be the foreign corporations. Key and National know that as well.

   • Rosie 6.3

     8 October 2015 at 9:49 am

     +1 Tautoko Mango Mata.

     Agree that organisation for protest needs to take place after content of the deal is revealed. Then we know exactly what we are dealing with and can formulate a plan for appropriate reaction.

     LOLs. At one of the TPP demo’s in Wellington, prior to the last one we all did a sing along to We’re not Gonna Take It. It was the best!

7. Pat 7

   8 October 2015 at 9:34 am

   https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/trans-pacific-partnership-charade-by-joseph-e–stiglitz-and-adam-s–hersh-2015-10

   • Bearded Git 7.1

     8 October 2015 at 9:52 am

     @Pat
     To continue from yesterday, it appears nothing is certain on the banning of house sales to overseas purchasers. Labour may well have the option of modifying the OIA (which has been exempted from the TPP) so that it can implement its policy.
     From the Herald today:

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11525498

     The list of “things to look out for” from Jacobi and Rosenberg when the fine print comes through are interesting.

     • Pat 7.1.1

       8 October 2015 at 11:09 am

       as always the devil is in the detail , however that link (thanks) suggests to me that there may be room for restricting foreign investment under the provisions of the CURRENT overseas investment act….and dosnt remove the risk of ISDS prosecution should any future government wish to change the act….my take.

8. left for deadshark 8

   8 October 2015 at 9:38 am

   Come on Radio NZ, this is the problem you get when we have an art critic doing serious political journalism, that was rubbish.

   No I can not link RNZ Wiki leaks
   .

   • Bearded Git 8.1

     8 October 2015 at 9:55 am

     @left
     Agreed. She didn’t seem very well briefed. Assange had to correct her on facts several times and it sounded like he was thinking “why on earth is she asking this?”.

     • left for deadshark 8.1.1

       8 October 2015 at 10:06 am

       Ta….
       Twitterback radio without the talkback, don’t get me wrong, I like a lot of Lynn’s work else were on that station. 👿

9. Nigel Gregory 9

   8 October 2015 at 9:44 am

   View story at Medium.com

10. Northsider 10

    8 October 2015 at 9:53 am

    “..according to the ….mad breathless fanboys of the right wing press, after today’s speech to the Tory party conference Davie Cameron is the new voice of the left. In other news, Hannibal Lector is the new voice of veganism, Ian Paisley is the Vatican spokesman on ecumenicalism, and the BNP are the new UN Commissioners for Refugees.”

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com

    An entertaining read.

11. wyndham 11

    8 October 2015 at 10:03 am

    http://campaign.labour.org.nz/our_position_on_the_tpp

    Just a reminder on those Labour Party “bottom lines”.

    • Nigel Gregory 11.1

      8 October 2015 at 10:10 am

      Wyndham….exactly.
      So Labour does not support the TPP right?

      • wyndham 11.1.1

        8 October 2015 at 11:48 am

        Yes. That’s how I see it.

        • Northsider 11.1.1.1

          8 October 2015 at 2:46 pm

          Not how Sir David Shearer of IISS lineage, Grant Robertson and David Parker will be advocating in the Caucus. They will be pushing hard for conformity with the fictions “middle ground consensus” .

          Sir David and Lady Anuschka will get that cushy ambassador spot from National or Labour: there don’t care which. They are not going to allow bloody left wingers dirty their clean establishment credentials.

12. Michael 12

    8 October 2015 at 11:27 am

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/business/72752247/labour-to-carry-on-regardless-of-tppa–ardern

    Labour to carry on regardless of TPPA – Ardern

    A Labour Government will make laws without regard to the controversial Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement and if necessary “face the consequences”.

    That was the view of Jacinda Ardern, Labour MP and spokesperson for small business, speaking at a Chamber of Commerce event in Rotorua on Tuesday.

    “When we’re in Government we’ll continue to legislate as we would and we’ll face the consequences,” she said.

    —

    Good to hear it in solid, straightforward terms now.

    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      8 October 2015 at 11:58 am

      Easy to make promises when you know you don’t have to back them up untill 2020

      • weka 12.1.1

        8 October 2015 at 12:26 pm

        easy to make promises when no-one else can see the fine print.

      • stigie 12.1.2

        8 October 2015 at 1:09 pm

        Yes PR, always easy to make promises in opposition ?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.2.1

          8 October 2015 at 1:21 pm

          “These tax cuts will be fiscally neutral…no GST rise…brighter future…higher standards…”

          I see what you mean.

          PS: found out about Google’s personalised searches yet Stigie? I’d hate to think my charity was going to waste.

      • Tricledrown 12.1.3

        8 October 2015 at 1:28 pm

        PR isideous arrogance Nationals unwritten policy .

      • Michael 12.1.4

        8 October 2015 at 1:28 pm

        What would you prefer?

        If Labour came out and said they’ll support the TPP wholeheartedly, you’d call them right wing neoliberals who are weak.

        When they criticise it, and say they won’t be following its regulations – the regulations of an international agreement – and will implement their policies anyway, you call it empty promises and weak.

        What do you want from the Labour party?

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      8 October 2015 at 2:41 pm

      Quoting article:

      Overnight Tuesday the five years of negotiations on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal came to a close.

      More lies from the MSM – the TPP negotiations were started something like ten years ago – by Labour.

      “It wasn’t just state to state, it was corporate to state.”

      It was the corporate takeover of the state.

13. Rosie 13

    8 October 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Really sick of reading about sicko’s abusing farmed animals:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/286410/farmer-jailed-for-'horrific-animal-abuse‘

    Within that article is a link to another story about a Whakatane man who starved calves to death.

    Read that one only yesterday, and now one today.

    Read another two weeks ago about about a farm manager and staff who abused dairy cows, forced extremely lame cows who were in acute pain to walk 2km to an offal pit where they shot them. The farm manager and a farm hand were charged for that and other abuses.

    These stories crop up far too frequently in the farming section on stuffed.co.nz

    But surely this is just tip of the iceberg stuff, the cases that end in convictions.

    After long campaigning, over decades, only now are customers purchasing free range chicken eggs and pork in supermarkets, and not just at health stores and farmers markets as before. They have finally grown aware of the cruelty of factory farming and it is more widely known about.
    How long will it be before we can expose the culture of farmed animal abuse, dairy, cattle and sheep, understand the depth of the abuse and remedy the situation?

    Why, in an agricultural nation are we so backwards about animal welfare?

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      8 October 2015 at 3:19 pm

      Why, in an agricultural nation are we so backwards about animal welfare?

      Because our free-market, low wage culture, requires that we cut corners to save ‘costs’.

    • Belladonna 13.2

      8 October 2015 at 6:23 pm

      Why as a people are we so backward about animal welfare? There is only one way to stop this constant and horrific abuse of animals and that is to go vegan.

    • McFlock 13.3

      8 October 2015 at 6:52 pm

      I go with the free market argument, too.
      Farmers cutting back on feed and help means the remaining staff are underpaid, overworked and in precarious (and often dangerous) employment.

      We can’t expect people to care more about animals than the economy cares about people.

      • Rosie 13.3.1

        9 October 2015 at 12:46 pm

        Odd. I checked for replies early evening and there weren’t any, yet DTB posted a reply at 3.19.

        Now I’ve run out time to get back into this subject.

        Good points however, alot that could be expanded on there. Will have to wait for another day.

    • tracey 13.4

      9 October 2015 at 1:23 pm

      At least the guy yesterday got 4.5 years in prison.

14. vto 14

    8 October 2015 at 1:41 pm

    .

    TPP equals 1% economic gain by 2030

    .

    unbelievably useless

    .

    Adern is right to say they will continue to legislate regardless, especially in light of how little would be lost, in 15 years time, if it gets ditched. 1% is nothing.

    1% is nothing. Just pay it and ditch the piece of shit

    For fucks sake 2.7billion aint much different to Bill English’s handout to his mates who invested in South Canterbury Finance at 1.7billion

    ha ha ha ha ha ha how fucking useless

    • Tricledrown 14.1

      8 October 2015 at 2:19 pm

      A few crumbs is all Grosser and co have been fed.Michael that figure of $ 2.7 billion is highly dubious.
      As the loss side of the balance sheet is not included.
      Biologicals the cost of keeping longer patents will wipe that out by itself as this government has deliberately covered up the %’s that pharmac will be purchasing for now it is small but by 2020 it will be 15% + of purchases by 2030 it could be half of all purchases.
      Then their is loss of local purchasing for govts and local bodies.
      That could include health boards.
      Then the right to sue .
      This is a pigs arse of a trade deal pushed by pigheaded pirates.

      • northshoredoc 14.1.1

        8 October 2015 at 2:32 pm

        There is no increase to the patent term of medicines in NZ under this proposed TPP agreement.

        Your figures on the percentage of biologicals as a percentage of total spend of pharmaceuticals is incorrect – suggest you have look at PHARMAC’s website where this information is published – regardless as i have said before there is no increase to the patent term of medicines in NZ under this proposed TPP agreement.

        Regarding local purchasing for government and councils – this will most likely still go through a tender process with the purchasing body making the decision based on the specifics of the tender.

        • vto 14.1.1.1

          8 October 2015 at 2:37 pm

          Good deal eh doc?

          What would your better half (presuming you have one) think if you got home after years away toiling for a pay rise and came back saying … “yes honey, I did it… 1% rise in 15 years time!… Lets go out and celebrate…”

          ffs

          • One Two 14.1.1.1.1

            8 October 2015 at 2:54 pm

            Some will always support

            Some will never support

            At this early stage it appears that NZ (read every TTP nation other than the USA) is going to be screwed on various levels

            With the agreements and legislation being authored and directed by private company’s and corporations, the likelihood of positive impact for people as a whole, is extremely low.

            The likelihood of negative outcomes flowing through by becoming part of this agreement, are immeasurably high

            Contracts, words and definitions used as weapons

          • northshoredoc 14.1.1.1.2

            8 October 2015 at 2:58 pm

            “Good deal eh doc?”

            Increased trade is a good outcome, yes I’m pro trade and agree with the former prime minster and current trade minister on the importance of trade to the NZ economy.

            • vto 14.1.1.1.2.1

              8 October 2015 at 2:59 pm

              yeah nah that wasn’t the question was it

              • northshoredoc …

                8 October 2015 at 3:05 pm

                @VTO the question you asked was irrelevant piffle, I’m avoiding such rubbish so as to avoid massively long pointless threads.

                • vto …

                  8 October 2015 at 3:13 pm

                  What? You consider the 1% gain after 15 years piffle?

                  I guess you’re right, it is piffle. The entire TPP is piffle.

                  And this is even more classic piffle … “Increased trade is a good outcome, yes I’m pro trade and agree with the former prime minster and current trade minister on the importance of trade to the NZ economy.”

                  • BM …

                    8 October 2015 at 3:15 pm

                    Are you an exporter or importer vto?

                    • vto …

                      8 October 2015 at 3:27 pm

                      why?

                    • BM …

                      8 October 2015 at 3:35 pm

                      You run a business that turns over some where between 10 million and a 100 million, so I’m assuming it would be something to do with exports or imports.

                      I would think the TPPA would have quite an impact on your bottom line if you’e in exports, or is the TPPA of no to relevance to your business?

                    • vto …

                      8 October 2015 at 3:43 pm

                      What would have a bigger impact on our business’s bottom line is a more robust and financially healthy lower income sector…. not pandering to already successful pharmaceutical companies and big tobacco….

                      ffs, this stuff aint rocket science…. every business in NZ would do better if the base of our society was actually strong. This is where the effort should go – into making the low income demographic wealthier..

                      .. it builds all the way up doesn’t it BM. Like any foundation.

                      .. which is why restricting foreign ownership in order to drive down all capital values will help

                      .. but we ALL know that lowering capital values is like speaking of the devil, such is the religious fervour of the right wing on these matters

                      … lower the capital values – high capital values are only damaging

                    • tracey …

                      8 October 2015 at 4:12 pm

                      vto, BM doesn’t understand that you don’t just want to make more and more money for yourself. His head might explode

                    • vto …

                      8 October 2015 at 4:24 pm

                      Yep I come across them types all the time in real life – they just cannot fathom other ways of going about life and business. They really are bamboozled by it. If it aint about money then they just glaze over….

                      Wayne’s world
                      Wayne’s world

                    • tracey …

                      8 October 2015 at 4:26 pm

                      good on ya vto for being the type of employer you are. I know a few who operate a similar way. It is possible.

                  • northshoredoc …

                    8 October 2015 at 3:16 pm

                    No you must have misread my comment.

                    I remarked that the question you asked was piffle.

                    • vto …

                      8 October 2015 at 3:26 pm

                      Oooohhh…..

                      Commentary on the extent of the gain (1% in 15 years) resulting from the TPP is considered piffle. Do you think we should just bend even further over and not comment on the outcome of the TPP?

                      Is a 1% economic gain in 15 years piffle?

                      I think it is.

                      After all that means at that level of achievement a 10% increase will take 150 years – ha ha, may as well pack the bags and head to the beach …

                      you are off the planet doc

            • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1.2.2

              8 October 2015 at 3:24 pm

              Increased trade is a good outcome

              Not necessarily. In fact, that just proves your position is ideological belief rather than a considered position.

              As I say, if there was a truly level field there would be only minimal trade as each country would produce for itself from its own resources. The added costs of trade would prevent trade.

        • Pat 14.1.1.2

          8 October 2015 at 3:15 pm

          would be a little concerned about filling one of your scripts if you consider there is no difference between 5 and 8.

          • northshoredoc 14.1.1.2.1

            8 October 2015 at 3:18 pm

            Sigh – Pat I’ve explained the difference between data exclusivity and patent term from a NZ medicines regulatory perspective a number of times, have a look at my previous comments on this using the Standard’s dinky search function.

            • KJT 14.1.1.2.1.1

              8 October 2015 at 4:21 pm

              Yes. You have now proved several times that you have no fucking idea what the TPPA says. Or don’t want us to know, like most of it’s supporters.

              • northshoredoc …

                8 October 2015 at 4:37 pm

                🙄 congratulations you have managed to add nothing to the discussion yet again.

            • Pat 14.1.1.2.1.2

              8 October 2015 at 7:40 pm

              I know its tiresome having to deal with mere mortals doc but humour me awhile and confirm a point or two for me if you would

              – it is your contention that due to the WTO 20 year drug patent period it has no impact on Pharmacs ability to purchase generics whether the data exclusivity period is 5 or 8 years as both fall well within the 20 years (leaving aside evergreening)

              – the additional costs to NZ under the TPP will be negligible and essentially for administration

              -Pharmaceutical companies need this period to recoup Rand D costs and to provide a return on investment, therefore the drivers are financial

              – the advocates for the increased data exclusivity period of 12 years in the TPP negotiation were the pharmaceutical companies and their lobbyists

              would that be a fair summary?

15. esoteric pineapples 15

    8 October 2015 at 3:55 pm

    There was an interesting conversation (if short lived when a ban was threatened) on whether retiring CTU president Helen Kelly, who has lung cancer, smoked (she doesn’t as far as I know). I’m a huge admirer of Helen and this post isn’t about her but about the fact that lung cancer sufferers, and to a lesser extent other cancer sufferers are often blamed for their illness (the first quote and link below touch on this subject.)

    In fact, one new set of research findings (see second link and quote) has found that in the majority of cases people who get cancer are simply unlucky. This raises an interesting question about how much responsibility we are placing on cancer sufferers for having the disease and why we are doing this. Has the health industry become over-zealous, for instance? Is it a result of society pushing all responsibility on to the individual. Or is it a great conceit we now have the power to control our health when in fact we often don’t.

    We have managed to demonise smokers but bowel cancer is the second most common form of cancer and we don’t have an easy target for that. If there was a lifestyle that society disapproved of that was known to contribute to bowel cancer, would people who participate in that also be demonised?

    “Unlike some cancers, which typically evoke sympathy and concern, lung cancer patients often experience stigma, isolation, and social judgment. In some instances, patients with lung cancer blame themselves and are filled with regret for having failed to take the advice (liberally meted out by doctors, family, friends, and strangers) to quit smoking. Patients who smoked (even those who had long ago quit) find themselves not only battling their disease, but also rebuke and self-recrimination.”

    http://www.nypcancerprevention.com/archive_newsletter/issue/10/pro/feature/blame-victim.shtml

    “The majority of cancers are the result of bad luck rather than unhealthy lifestyles or inherited genetic faults, scientists have discovered.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11320497/Most-cancers-are-caused-by-bad-luck-not-genes-or-lifestyle-say-scientists.html

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1

      8 October 2015 at 3:57 pm

      Thanks for posting this EP.

      I’ve been way, way too angry to respond to Infused’s vile insinuation on the HK tribute thread.

      • tracey 15.1.1

        8 October 2015 at 4:13 pm

        I wanted to stop him/her before it escalated to “Unions cause cancer”

    • tracey 15.2

      8 October 2015 at 4:15 pm

      pineapples

      yesterday my partner and were driving home from a funeral. We started talking about stress and so forth. She mentioned that from time to time mention is made of the impact of stress on illness. She mused “Has anyone studied terminal illness suffered by survivors of active duty since WWII? Cos” she continued” “you can’t get much more stressed than being shelled and shot at and freezing etc”.

    • McFlock 15.3

      8 October 2015 at 5:53 pm

      yep – just as we have the deserving and undeserving poor, now it’s going into the deserving and undeserving sick.

      Looking for an excuse to ascribe blame/inferiority is the first step towards looking for an excuse to let people die.

16. Nigel Gregory 16

    8 October 2015 at 4:31 pm

    Jacinda Ardern’s comments are most welcome. It’s good to see Labour committing to policies in the interests of the majority of our citizens.
    I’ll take her comments at face value, bravo.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/business/72752247/labour-to-carry-on-regardless-of-tppa–ardern

17. joe90 17

    8 October 2015 at 5:52 pm

    Congratulations LP and TS, your very own stalker blog.

    http://www.donotlink.com/gxfe

    • weka 17.1

      8 October 2015 at 6:28 pm

      Pretty poor content, we need better critics.

      Aren’t they on a ban currently?

      Someone did suggest a comment of the day feature recently, who was that?

      Edit, it was Pasupial,

      Standard Changes

    • One Anonymous Bloke 17.2

      8 October 2015 at 6:35 pm

      Nah, that George person had that niche covered a long time ago. Your link is more wannabe-beige than the authentic variety.

18. Smilin 18

    8 October 2015 at 11:53 pm

    Lasso the operative word on US foreign policy and trade

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