Open mike 08/12/2012

118 comments on “Open mike 08/12/2012 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. Descendant Of Smith 1

   8 December 2012 at 6:57 am

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/8054196/Nurse-who-took-Middleton-prank-call-found-dead

   Very sad. Wanky media think it’s funny duping ordinary workers. I’ve had to deal with a few incidents of media (sometimes via politicians, employers and sadly a time or two by other benefit advocates) putting everyday people in unnecessary spotlight and seen terrible consequences there as well – not far away from this.

   That whole notion that came through in the 80’s that staff were simply a resource and no longer people is one of the reasons this sort of crap happens.

   People don’t even think about the consequences of humiliating a resource.

   Bastards.
   • Neoleftie maybe CV maybe not 1.1

     8 December 2012 at 7:01 am

     Terrible terribly sad poor poor woman.
     • Logie97 1.1.1

       8 December 2012 at 8:05 am

       Perhaps this tragedy will begin the demise of the tabloid culture in broadcasting that has gone unbridled since the advent of “pirate radio” – where disc jockeys have masqueraded as commentators with opinions of some worth. Ratings driven please-the-advertisers-justification drivel.
       It’s all a symptom of the Murdoch type world.
       And we have a government here who would like to commercialise RNZ. Just the way they have stuffed Television New Zealand.
       • karol 1.1.1.1

         8 December 2012 at 8:11 am

         It is sad.  But it’s sad because, this nurse, doing one of the most important jobs for society, only became known to us because of her association with royals.

         It’s sad that the royal pregnancy has got saturation coverage in the NZ media, while the MSM largely ignore a far more important event going on right under their noses: the international TPPA negotiations going on this week at Sky City in Auckland.

          From the above linked article:

         The nurse, Jacintha Saldanha, was a 46-year-old mother of two.

         I hope Jacintha is now at peace. She made an important contribution to this world as a nurse and parent.
       • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 1.1.1.2

         8 December 2012 at 8:15 am

         Simply a symptom of the break down of society, the dumbing down of the masses.
         The sensationalism and tabloid culture the entertainment factor of journalism these days is simple in response to this.
       • VindowViper 1.1.1.3

         8 December 2012 at 9:46 am

         Not only tragic and appalling for all the individuals involved; but serves crystal clear notice to the media industry that it’s long past time for a complete cleanout of all the venal, slimy, craven lack of professional journalistic standards that have become the accepted norm.

         If journalism wants to survive as a profession it needs to take a very long hard look at itself. Self-righteous defensiveness and posturing no longer cuts mustard.
       • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.4

         8 December 2012 at 10:19 am

         Perhaps this tragedy will begin the demise of the tabloid culture in broadcasting that has gone unbridled since the advent of “pirate radio” – where disc jockeys have masqueraded as commentators with opinions of some worth. Ratings driven please-the-advertisers-justification drivel.
         It’s all a symptom of the Murdoch type world.

         Such will only happen if the particular station gets done for causing the death.

         And we have a government here who would like to commercialise RNZ. Just the way they have stuffed Television New Zealand.

         That’s National and Act and UF to the core. Sell everything into private ownership so that the private owners get to control everything. Capitalism is just another form of dictatorship.
         • alwyn 1.1.1.4.1

           8 December 2012 at 11:45 am

           Commercialising Radio New Zealand isn’t going to make things worse. The National program is pretty well down in the dregs already.
           I was listening to Jim Mora’s program on Thursday with his “panel” of Jock Anderson and Josie McNaught. A chunk of the fake call was played and the three of them certainly didn’t see anything wrong with doing it. If anything they appeared to regard it as funny and certainly nothing to worry about. There was mild sympathy with the nurse who was fooled but certainly no concern for the invasion of Kate’s privacy.
           • aerobubble 1.1.1.4.1.1

             8 December 2012 at 2:37 pm

             Its called bullying, and when the whole world is watching it should be a crime.

             Just what happens when she has a miscarriage, am I to be blasted by news about
             how great Moro and the Media in bringing us more vomit?
           • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 1.1.1.4.1.2

             8 December 2012 at 4:06 pm

             alwyn
             That’s silly. Public National Radio is important. Complain if there is some program you want to change or improve but don’t talk about throwing it away in favour of commercialisation.

             (I see I have to give up my? pseudonym Vindow Viper – some clever clogs always has thought of it first!)
             • alwyn …

               8 December 2012 at 5:37 pm

               If you re-read what I said, I didn’t actually call for National Radio to be commercialised, or privatised.
               What I said was that they were just as appalling in their approach to this story as most of the commercial radio stations probably were (I didn’t hear anything they were playing so I can’t say).
               I think we are entitled to rather better behaviour from National Radio than the juvenile giggling they did turn on. It was a gross invasion of privacy and it should NOT have been repeated in their broadcasts.
               • NoseViper (The Nose knows) …

                 8 December 2012 at 9:13 pm

                 alwyn
                 I find the responses from Jim Mora’s guests very variable.
                 And that some of them would find the prank amusing is not surprising, they can be pretty vapid.
                 Of course it was not foreseen then that this poor lady would be soon dead.
                 • aerobubble …

                   9 December 2012 at 1:03 pm

                   Yes, well, when has the media ever concerned itself with going to far.
               • Viper Anne …

                 8 December 2012 at 10:05 pm

                 Yes alwyn I agree with you. I turned the radio off in disgust because of the flippant attitude they were exhibiting. We are entitled to much better behaviour from the only non commercial radio station we have in NZ.

                 As someone who was a victim of a number of vicious hoaxes in the distant past (not from the media in my case) I know the feeling of embarrassment, humiliation, fear and most of all… the violation of one’s privacy.

                 When malice and violation of privacy is involved, it should automatically become a criminal offence. The police approached my complaints with such a cavalier attitude, they might as well have told me what they were clearly thinking: ” Oh, you must have asked for it”. I still have a low opinion of the NZ Police as a result of that experience and probably always will have.
           • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 1.1.1.4.1.3

             9 December 2012 at 12:15 am

             If you listen to RNZ often you will know there’s often a right-wing panel one day and a left-wing panel the next. I think they should be commended for trying to be fair and balanced, but I’ll always be down on them for banning Bomber when all he did was tell the truth.
             • aerobubble …

               9 December 2012 at 1:11 pm

               While I agree with the theory, the plain simple reality is the right wing manufacturing of slogan should have seen a much more balanced Moro being able to counter them.
               Take the kid in the corner, he basically allowed one of his guests to say it was all okay, because civics taught by religion classes was a social good. Have these people not been anywhere in the last 500 years, religion is death – to culture, to learning, to people, its prescriptivist nature has long been the enemy of the people.
       • prism 1.1.1.5

         8 December 2012 at 3:34 pm

         It’s all part of the me generation that seeks pleasure and amusement and to hell with other considerations. Paul Holmes, Paul Henry, fun-loving types playing merry japes from Oz or NZ. Sociopathic at base. A proud hardworking ambitious medico may have felt her reputation and future had been fatally marked as she was being censured.
         • Jenny 1.1.1.5.1

           9 December 2012 at 2:10 am

           In the wake of these very sad events, hopefully we will witness the passing of the age of the boorish insensitive media shock jock?

           Maybe the coarse laddish cheap and nasty reactionary humour of the John Tamiheres’ and Paul Henrys’ of this world, with behaviour previously excused, as “Ladish Fun” will no longer be considered acceptable behaviour for media broadcasters?

           We can only hope that this is the case.

           Boorish and reactionary, often misogynist and racist, radio and TV announcers are no longer funny, if they ever were.
   • Populuxe1 1.2

     8 December 2012 at 11:57 pm

     Tedious Australian shock jocks are hardly “media”.
     • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 1.2.1

       9 December 2012 at 11:56 am

       Populuxe1 1.2
       Tedious shock jocks not media? If they are broadcasting from a position of employment then every comment they distribute is part of their media presentation, including tweets and facebook.
     • One Tāne Viper 1.2.2

       9 December 2012 at 12:07 pm

       They aren’t “tedious Australian shock jocks” – they’re victims.

       We’re seriously concerned about their welfare and we’re doing whatever we can to help them…This is a tragic event that could not have been reasonably foreseen and we’re deeply saddened by it.

       You seem to be implying they should be held responsible for their behaviour this tragic event or something.
       • aerobubble 1.2.2.1

         9 December 2012 at 1:21 pm

         Yes, like we should hound them, like they were royalty…
2. karol 2

   8 December 2012 at 7:25 am

   All hail the Menz Party!  Not impressed with the retrograde leadership of this party from a by-gone era.

   Hope you’re having a good weekend Mr Viper & regathering your energy for future struggles to democratise this lost caucus. 
   • Te Reo Putake 2.1

     8 December 2012 at 8:14 am

     Despite similar polling problems, the Aussie Labor party is actually growing its membership. There may be some lessons to be learned for NZ Labour.
     • Morrissey 2.1.1

       8 December 2012 at 9:19 am

       There may be some lessons to be learned for NZ Labour.

       Such as total and utter subjugation to the diktats of the Imperial Master….

       http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/backbench-revolt-overturns-pm-on-un-palestine-vote/story-fn59nm2j-1226524953437
   • bad12 2.2

     8 December 2012 at 8:26 am

     Bwana Dave Shearer attempting to brush a few Labour crumbs off of the table in the Greens direction,

     I see nothing to be gained by the Greens in accepting a ‘nothing’ position such as Deputy Prime Minister, the position in terms of coalition politics is simply ‘a bauble’ of office which would leave the incumbent powerless but tarred with the brush of having to accept the policies of the larger partner in the coalition while also being held to account for policy not of it’s own making by the electorate,

     I would hope that the Greens are giving some thought this far out from 2014 to some bottom lines in policy where they can show the electorate specific gains to be made from soiling themselves in any coalition Government,

     There may be far more to gain in terms of electoral support for the Greens to allow Labour as a minority Government with Green confidence and supply votes while extracting from Labour a specific set of goals via legislation within a stated time-frame…
     • Dr Terry 2.2.1

       8 December 2012 at 9:48 am

       bad 12 I agree with you.
       • bad12 2.2.1.1

         8 December 2012 at 10:14 am

         Aha, the worry here is that the Greens could wind up in coalition with Labour while holding specific portfolio’s such as Conservation and then find their Ministries hamstrung by a Labour strangle-hold on the Finance Ministry,

         I am sure that the Green Party is well up with this concern and would seek iron-clad budget guarantees as part of any coalition negotiations,

         There is nothing i would like to see more in politics than a strong Green presence in a New Zealand Government, the codicil to that of course would have to be the careful balancing of the gains to be made by having that Cabinet representation as opposed to being able to extract the same gains from a confidence and supply agreement without the negative political effects that most junior coalition party’s suffer…
         • Jenny 2.2.1.1.1

           9 December 2012 at 1:18 pm

           Did the fledgling Labour Party seek coalition with the Liberals?

           No they stood their ground and refused to water down their principles.

           What happened. As the Labour Party vote grew the ersatz enemies of the Country Party and the Liberals collapsed together to form National.
     • prism 2.2.2

       8 December 2012 at 3:40 pm

       bad12 +1
       Old Labour could be a lame duck party and Greens could get a reputation of being a bunch of quacks if joined at the hip to Old Labour.
   • RedBaronCV 2.3

     8 December 2012 at 9:05 am

     FFS I’m with Karol on this one.
     Memo to the Left. Women vote for you in large quantites. Women have taken a pounding under Nact [along with young people, children, those on social assistance etc etc].Most voters aren’t rich white males.
     There is no need for tokenism you have plenty of competent women, use them.
     Why isn’t the greens other co leader being considered for deputy PM? Maybe even a shared deputy PM.
   • Draco T Bastard 2.4

     8 December 2012 at 11:28 am

     “Finance is obviously the most important role in a government and that would go to the party with the greatest proportion of votes, and that’s what people in New Zealand would expect,” Mr Shearer said.

     No Mr Shearer, I’d expect it to go to the person most suited to the role within the ruling coalition.

     He would like Labour to be above 40 per cent, but whatever the Greens scored “we’ll work it out from there”.

     /snigger
   • Jenny 2.5

     9 December 2012 at 3:21 am

     Will Russel Norman become the Nick Clegg of New Zealand

     And destroy his party in the process?

     David Shearer appears to be weighing up his options for deputy prime minister between Green co-leader Russel Norman and NZ First leader Winston Peters as he looks for ways to reward support partners without letting go of the key finance portfolio.

     Vernon Small Fairfax News

     For Russel Norman to accept a high cabinet position while Labour oversees a huge expansion in coal mining and oil drilling, would be to take a poisoned chalice for the Green Party. While Russel Norman may personally profit, like Nick Clegg in the the UK his party would be destroyed. Especially as looks likely the Labour Party will be committed to the strip mining of coal of West coast coal at Denniston and deep sea oil drilling and fracking all of which the Greens oppose.

     Under the last Labour administration environmentalists were getting illegally spied on and arrested for protesting such things. No doubt under Shearer this will continue and Russel Norman will be seen to be a party to it.

     Far better for the Greens to stay out of formal coalition with Labour and be captured. As happened with the Alliance, as happened to the Maori Party with National, as happened to the British Liberal Democrats with the Conservatives. And all see their votes collapse. Better to keep fighting for
     your principles rather than trade them away.
3. Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 3

   8 December 2012 at 8:24 am

   Started work friday at 8am finished at 11pm so a very very long day for me.
   Weekend will be groceries, gardening weeding veg garden, looking after baby naps and then back to work on Monday.
4. Morrissey 4

   8 December 2012 at 8:52 am

   Banksy’s Christmas card

   That’s Banksy the brilliant artist, not the corrupt politician….

   https://twitter.com/johncusack/status/276448960099528707/photo/1
   • Dv 4.1

     8 December 2012 at 9:30 am

     AND I see “I have nothing to hide” Banks, wants to send his lawyer to court!!

     http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8051774/Banks-seeks-Dotcom-court-excuse

     ACT leader John Banks wants to be excused from appearing in court over the Dotcom donations saga.

     A judge summoned the Epsom MP to appear in Wellington District Court next week, after retired accountant Graham McCready launched a rare private prosecution on a charge of knowingly filing a false election return

     Jones is asking if Banks can be excused and instead represented by a lawyer.
     • Morrissey 4.1.1

       8 December 2012 at 11:00 am

       I bet Bill Clinton’s weekly whoring budget that Banks will not appear in court.
       • prism 4.1.1.1

         8 December 2012 at 3:43 pm

         Poor Morrissey – Sexual problems? You’re just jealous of smoothy Bill Clinton. There’s too much interest in the ordinary sex habits of pollies. Leave them alone until they do it in the street and frighten the horses.
         • Morrissey 4.1.1.1.1

           8 December 2012 at 7:28 pm

           You’re just jealous of smoothy Bill Clinton.

           You could not be more wrong. Clinton has a history of foolish and reckless sexual behaviour, but then so do many politicians.

           And, take my word for it, he’s welcome to his ghastly wife—and to the pathetic matrons who threw themselves at him in Queenstown and Auckland when he was here in 1999.
5. Bill 5

   8 December 2012 at 8:54 am

   7.3 magnitude quake off the coast of Miyagi prefecture yesterday. Miyagi prefecture is right next to Fukushima prefecture. So, no tsunami or what not. But haven’t seen any reports about Fukushima-Daiichi Unit 4. Anyone?

   And if you’re reading this but are unaware of the importance of Unit 4, then….last I heard (from the fairewinds website some months back), its walls were bulging due to quake damage and the fear was that a good sized aftershock could cause it to split or collapse.

   And if Unit 4 loses its water and the cooling rods are exposed to air they will, apparently, ignite and it will not be possible to extinquish the resulting highly radioactive fire. And the release of radiation would exceed the culmutive radiation from all nuclear tests.

   So, given the potential for an absolutely unprecedented disaster scenario if Unit 4 is compromised, I’ve have expected news reports of a major aftershock to carry specific info on the integrity of that cooling pool. (ie, something more detailed or focussed than some Tepco mouthpiece issuing a blanket – ‘It’s all A-OK at all of our plants’ – type statement.)

   But hey. Maybe my expectations are just too high?
   • muzza 5.1

     8 December 2012 at 9:26 am

     5.8 in NZ

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852726

     The only real certainty about Unit 4 Bill, like the entire episode at Fukishima, is that the wall of lies are thick.

     This should be front page news every day of the bloody week!
   • prism 5.2

     8 December 2012 at 3:44 pm

     Bill
     I heard a mention of a 1 metre tsunami up there.
6. Another Viper 6

   8 December 2012 at 9:09 am

   I’d like to buy a badge to wear to all Labour Party meetings with the words:

   “I am Colonial Viper!”

   This would be a great fund raiser for the Dunedin South Labour party. I’d pay $10 for one (incl P&P and GST).
   They could use half the proceeds for the Hillside families and the other half to fund a better election campaign in 2014.
   • rosy viper 6.1

     8 December 2012 at 9:27 am

     Yep, the members now have the power. A concerted effort is required to take the party back from these autocratic bullies.
   • Olwyn 6.2

     8 December 2012 at 9:27 am

     How do you change the name you post under? Do you re-register or something?
     • Just viping 6.2.1

       8 December 2012 at 9:35 am

       If you don’t log-in, you can comment under any name you like.
       • Olsviper 6.2.1.1

         8 December 2012 at 9:54 am

         Thanks. Here goes!
         • Viper Anne 6.2.1.1.1

           8 December 2012 at 3:45 pm

           Aha, just clocked-in to TS on another post and was wondering… who the hell is Olsviper? 🙂
           • Olsviper 6.2.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2012 at 3:51 pm

             🙂
   • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 6.3

     8 December 2012 at 9:39 am

     Brilliant ….tshirt are getting printed as we speak lol
     Long live CV
     • Viperghazi 6.3.1

       8 December 2012 at 6:43 pm

       Please send a link so we can purchase t-shirts as soon as they are available. Will be great for the summer BBQ season.
   • KhandallaMan-an Absolutely Fabulous Viper 6.4

     8 December 2012 at 9:41 am

     Perhaps the Wellington head office could run the the “I’m Colonial Viper” fund raiser.  

     Use the money to pay for additional staff to process the flood of membership renewals.   There seems to be some delays at present…….
     • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 6.4.1

       8 December 2012 at 10:17 am

       Maybe they are vetting the applications for left wing bloggers hence the time delays.
       How about CV for Dunedin South. Replace a twit tweeter with a Activist blogger.
7. Just viping 7

   8 December 2012 at 9:26 am

   Reply to Lenore at 41 in the ‘Just how wrong…’ thread.

   I instinctively wanted to argue with your comment.
   But it reminded me of a blog-post of Chris Trotter’s from way back, in which he lamented that gatherings of the left seem more rancorous, cliquey, unfriendly, and sometimes downright nasty, on a personal level, than similar groups on the right. And sadly, that has largely been my experience of left-wing activism too.

   Even allowing for my own ineptness in group settings, memories of being quite outrageously patronised, feeling deliberately excluded much more often than I felt included, of cliquiness not otherwise seen outside of adolescence, and of personalised belittling, backstabbing, and malicious gossip completely unrelated to any idealogical differences, do tend to predominate.

   I don’t see activism as a social outlet, or expect “fun”, and I think I understand that the left is diversity by definition, and solidarity in diversity is much harder work than I imagine a National Party fundraising dinner would be. Fighting oppression will never be a smooth ride, and so in that respect I do understand and share your trepidation at rejoining the fray.

   But hey, the Labour Party isn’t particularly left-wing, so you might be pleasantly surprised….
   • VindowViper 7.1

     8 December 2012 at 10:03 am

     I’d suggest that this lack of sociability among left-wing activists has it’s roots in the idea that most of us are fundamentally introverted personalities. In a world that largely values and celebrates extroversion it’s very difficult for us to learn constructive ways to assert ourselves, because for much of our lives we experience exclusion and marginalisation everywhere.

     Put a bunch of us face to face in a room we find it all a bit intense, hard work, and it’s not so very surprising that it’s a more than a little dysfunctional. It’s also why if you let us remove ourselves back to the privacy of our own homes … we can often connect quite successfully with each other on the net.
     • rosy viper 7.1.1

       8 December 2012 at 10:16 am

       +1 good point.

       VindowViper … hehe.
     • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 7.1.2

       8 December 2012 at 10:29 am

       I was active for a while in the dim dark past but well my local party was geared up as anti newbie and very very focused on power plays and knife tossing. Little real activity and organisational skills. Now ten years on all focused around the sitting MP support core from the culled woman’s branch.
       I remember my first LEC meeting after doing a review of the leaflet drop zones, the red neck affiliate rep judged me as ” great another fucking homo”, the feminist urban renewal supporter sniffed and exclaimed “I don’t need a man to accompany me doing canvassing”, the regional rep mumbled and stumbled shyly stating ” I don’t do public speaking”, and th sitting MP hinted at dark economic tidings on the horizon.
       Anyway long live the revolution within the party and membership rights.
       • Just viping 7.1.2.1

         8 December 2012 at 11:03 am

         LOL
         I could tell a few funny stories of a similar ilk – but not without identifying myself and potentially offending fellow activists – who as individuals were good people. (I always imagined one particular group as a satirical tv show).

         And yes, shoot me right now and get it over with, identity cliques, including feminist cliques seem to naturally occur, gain powerbases, start playing power games….
         Understandable in many ways, and there can be an element of overcompensating once we “identities” find our voices.

         In reply to Bill, I think changes to the ways we organise ourselves could help ameliorate the problem, but I don’t think hierarchical structures are the only cause. There are a whole lot of factors at play I think.

         And Vindow Viper – I find it hard to believe that the majority of left-wingers can be introverted because introversion is a minority trait. We are probably disproportionately represented though. Another part of the jigsaw is differences in how the working classes are socialised (compared to the ruling classes). Unconsciously, many of our parents prepared us to be “good workers” – rather than the smooth social operators the ruling class tend to train their kids to be.

         I think the places like TS can help overcome the problem, not just because many of us are shy, but because conversations can develop over time. So often in real world setttings we can’t get past action and reaction, to actually listening to each other.
         • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2.1.1

           8 December 2012 at 12:06 pm

           Unconsciously, many of our parents prepared us to be “good workers” – rather than the smooth social operators the ruling class tend to train their kids to be.

           IMO there’s two parts. Socialisation needs to be taught but the majority of families fail to actually teach it and so children are left to pick up socialisation from the people around them which is, more often than not, other children in places such as school. So the majority of people grow up with failed socialisation.

           The part where you say prepared us to be “good workers” is exactly that – the parents, used to nothing other than working themselves, tell their children that they need to have a job. It’s all they’ve known. Other families teach their children how to be successful within the present hierarchical paradigm which really isn’t about having a job but about having the right social connections and having others work for them.
           • Just viping 7.1.2.1.1.1

             8 December 2012 at 1:39 pm

             Interesting idea Draco, that there can be an absence of teaching socialisation which sees kids scratching around picking up what they can from their peers who might also be largely untaught. That rings true to me.
           • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 7.1.2.1.1.2

             8 December 2012 at 1:48 pm

             Is it socialisation or rise of individualism or both maybe.
             • Just viping …

               8 December 2012 at 2:01 pm

               It’s certainly the rise of the individual, as taught to the kids of the elite. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
               • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV …

                 8 December 2012 at 2:18 pm

                 My whole group are what you call elites…take last new years one fly in by his own helicopter for the party but my point thru education and self or taught drive and determination either through group socialisation or individual drive etc we should all be elites. Further to this is that even the multi millionaire is a worker basically just more cleverer or more socialised connected or had a better start so therefore all workers given the right or left tools should be the same.
                 • Just viping …

                   8 December 2012 at 2:24 pm

                   We can’t all be elites. That is a contradiction in terms.
                   The idea that through hard work, and determination, blah blah blah……. is a prevalent right-wing meme which is not founded in reality.

                   Similar to “we can all be winners”. If we were all winners there would be no winners because there can be no winning without others losing. Good for keeping us in aspirational la-la land though.
                   • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV …

                     8 December 2012 at 2:30 pm

                     It’s called a rule change if you don’t like the rules stand up and change them just don’t sit it out.
                     First step…power to the party i.e members
                     Two.. Plan and organise in the long term
                     Three. Promote key identifiers into position of change.
                     Four. Disseminate ideas of change to the masses.
                     Five. Systematically create change or await an event that fosters the right environment for change….big bang or crunch will do nicely.
   • Bill 7.2

     8 December 2012 at 10:09 am

     Hmm. Meetings. In not very democratic settings, all the nasty, cliquey, power tripping shit gets free reign. So quieter or shyer people get excluded, options or opinions sidelined if they are not ‘in tune’ with the dominant suggestion (which is usually framed as a yes/no, agree/disagree ‘decision’). Even the agenda for what is/isn’t to be discussed is set from ‘on high’…by ‘the committee members, the clique etc, ie those with more access to information and by extention, ability to excercise power.

     There are fairly simple ways around all of that. In a word: democracy.

     Level the environment where the decisions are going to be made. No permanently appointed or elected committees, chairpeople or whatever to preside over meetings. Revolving position of facilitators whose main task is identify what the group is actually saying, ensure or encourage input from those who are less dominant in group settings, see to it that all opinions are canvassed and not casually dismissed ‘just because’, deny the opportunity to dominate…etc, etc, etc.

     Facilitator = potentially poisoned chalice of being King/ Queen/dictator/ diplomat (depending on their approach/skill level)….for a few hours. And next time around they are just one of the unwashed like everyone else and somebody else gets to fill those shoes. Which aren’t very pleasant btw…it can be bloody hard work and usually involves a very steep learning curve. And is utterly disempowering on the level that the facilitator does not actually engage in terms of input to whatever decisions are up for consideration.

     Could LEC meetings run along those lines? I’d love to hear any excuses as to why they couldn’t or shouldn’t…or any arguments that would attempt to justify why such meetings should be considered as ‘special cases’ allowed to practice ‘less than democratic’ meeting procedures.
8. rosy viper 8

   8 December 2012 at 9:49 am

   So, vulture capitalists. I hadn’t paid much attention before, just another lot of financiers ripping people off with derivatives, bonds, currency trading an the like. But it’s worse than that when they can:

   – Impound a frigate of a sovereign state and get a court order from some country or another (in this case Ghana) to hold it until the State pays the vultures the debt they bought up for a song

   … A few months ago, the Argentine frigate Libertad, which ironically means freedom in Spanish, was seized in Ghana after a local judge ruled in favour of Elliott Capital Management. …

   …Elliott Capital Management, a vulture fund based in the tax haven Cayman Islands owned by conservative financier Paul Singer (a big donor to the Romney campaign), refused to accept the terms of the debt restructuring that was accepted by more than 92% of bondholders in 2005 and 2010. It has demanded payment in full, and has actively pursued its case in different courts across the world

   – Buy up debt from a defaulting sovereign state, get a court ruling from some country (in this case the U.S.) to force a country who had defaulted to pay billions, with interest – at the expense of debtors who agreed to take less to facilitate the default and without any concern whatsoever for the citizens of the country, or the economic recovery that has made the demand for payment viable.

   The ruling also contradicts US internal bankruptcy laws, which force minority creditors to confirm to deals accepted by 70% of creditors. If this ruling is supported in the higher courts (both Argentina and other creditors have already appealed) it will create an unviable situation for global bond markets. Creditors will only be making one-way bets if no possibility of restructuring is accepted, making the only options all (full payment) or nothing (complete default)…

   …Ironically, this may turn out to be counterproductive. It is not just that these recent moves are deeply unjust and anti-democratic – it is also that they threaten the global financial system itself. Allowing vulture funds to get precedence over other bondholders that accept restructuring undermines any possibility of renegotiating debts, without which no credit system can function.

   Big issues here for how the Greek, Spanish and Portugese debt is handled, and maybe something of the reason for the convoluted drawn out process in managing Greek debt.

   There must be something going on behind the scenes to get rid of these people. Surely even the eyes at the top of the financial tree can see there is a massive risk of it crashing to the ground.
   • locus viper 8.1

     8 December 2012 at 12:20 pm

     Yep this means the whole idea of partial write-downs of debt will be out of the window. But the finacial elite don’t care – they have their interests nicely protected

     What I find amazing is that while the super-rich have always been able to bend ‘justice’ to their will in the name of obscene profiteering, they now believe they have the power to take on an entire nation – impounding a frigate!

     Maybe the feisty Cristina Kirchner should consider formally declaring war on Paul Singer and all the interests of Elliot Capital Management
   • Draco T Bastard 8.2

     8 December 2012 at 12:26 pm

     So what explains all the downgrading and undermining of the country in financial markets and the media?

     The real reason may lie in the very success of the country’s economy after its default and forced debt restructuring process. After 2002, Argentina reversed the austerity measures promoted by the IMF, renationalised key productive sectors like aviation, pensions and most recently oil, increased social protection and income transfers to the poor, and reduced poverty substantially. Real wages have increased, and wage inequalities have been reduced.

     Yep, as far as the capitalists go it’s proof that their preferred financial method doesn’t actually work and they can’t have that as people will break the bonds that the capitalists have spent centuries putting in place.
9. r0b 9

   8 December 2012 at 10:10 am

   Calling all Vipers…

   Good on you, you’re making your point. Those who would censor take note.

   If you’re joining the viper army, however, a reminder that the first comment under a new name goes into moderation. Once the new name is cleared, away you go as usual. But in the weekend moderation can take a while sometimes…

   (I can see the headlines now – The Standard is a nest of vipers!)
   • muzza 9.1

     8 December 2012 at 10:19 am

     What is it that CV has actually been doing which would attract this kind of attention?

     He’s not a regular author on the site, prolific poster sure, but thats not enough to cover it off…

     No specific details required, in generalistic terms it would be helpful to get some sort of context, otherwise this just all seems a little, dramatic!
     • Just viping 9.1.1

       8 December 2012 at 10:31 am

       Solidarity.
       Look it up.
       • muzza 9.1.1.1

         8 December 2012 at 10:41 am

         So making an enquiry is to go against “solidarity”!

         It doesn’t work like that….

         Grow up!
         • Just viping 9.1.1.1.1

           8 December 2012 at 11:13 am

           No, I was answering your question about why.
           The “look it up” was sarcastic (apologies) because I thought the reasons we “vipers” are trying to offer our support, were quite obvious. Did you read yesterday’s open mike?
           • muzza 9.1.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2012 at 11:27 am

             Hmmm, digital communications distortion..

             I did read the article, but it does not make sense from what has been discussed.

             I would have thought that as CV self proclaimed does not work, and apparantly does not have to, that he would be in an ideal position to really get stuck into the system, so to speak.

             Being a prolific poster on blogs is not enough to have to take cover from blogging, if it can have no blow back – Perhaps it about his family as opposed to him, which would be understandable.

             Looking for some more details, in a generalist sense as to what else could have triggered this, as it sounds like its overblown to me.

             Sure there might be more to it in the background, but the posts do not tell that.

             Solidarity is great, but so is some information, above what has been given.
             • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV …

               8 December 2012 at 12:26 pm

               Oh for olde petes sake….a song coched in old lost language.
               Old farmer will had a farm, sheep dogs and pigs and an old work horse called one left shoe. Now on that farm there was a mouse called Micky…..Micky mouse had a friend called pig man E N G O and that’s what his name is NGO NGO loud and shrill but solid and kind who walked and talked until he was red deep red in the face….poor old NGO.
     • bad12 9.1.2

       8 December 2012 at 10:39 am

       Me-thinks the latest attempt to muzzle internet comment on the Labour Party leadership is an attempt to silence those in the Party who support Cunliffe as leader,

       The intent of such would seem to be a view that a challenge can be fore-stalled in February if such activists within the Party can be silenced,

       To me Labour and the Shearer faction and supporters in the Party, (if there are in fact many, any ???), have gone about this all arse about face,

       Perhaps the Shearer faction ‘knows’ that should a vote be triggered in February they don’t have the numbers, but, putting that aside for now most of us, (an assumption), would have found it to be the mark of a real leader if the Shearer camp had of from the moment the Conference re-wrote the rules on leadership selection openly stated that it would be they, (the Shearer faction), who would trigger that vote by the wider party in February,

       Complaining about and threatening Party members for voicing their opinions on websites such as the Standard is at the least weak,

       Further to that i believe that Labour as a Party should not rest on it’s laurels as far as having added the ‘democratic’ element to it’s choice of leadership and the same voting system could anbd should be extended in the future to selecting future Labour Cabinets with the Parliamentary Leader allocating the relevant portfolios…
     • Viper Anne 9.1.3

       8 December 2012 at 4:01 pm

       CV has been bullied and threatened by a Labour MP who has apparently acquired (by one means or another) his actual identity.
       • Viper Anne 9.1.3.1

         8 December 2012 at 4:13 pm

         The above comment was meant to be in reply to Muzza at 9.1
       • muzza 9.1.3.2

         9 December 2012 at 7:45 am

         Hi Anne,

         Yes that much is clear, but is it more about the outing of the real identity as a way of trying to quiet the blogging community as a whole, or does CV have a specific role as member of the LP which would seem to make sense to the person alledged to be putting the heat on?

         Does CV have a blog site, or a role inside the membership which would explain this attention?
         • Viper Anne 9.1.3.2.1

           9 December 2012 at 8:20 am

           Does CV have a blog site, or a role inside the membership which would explain this attention?

           Not to my knowledge except he has shown himself to be a very effective communicator. I suspect that was the sin he committed.

           [Some details deleted. r0b] While there may be some other incidences of bullying going on, I don’t think its a campaign on the part of the Labour caucus to stamp out criticism or dissent. I hope not.
           • muzza 9.1.3.2.1.1

             9 December 2012 at 8:25 am

             Hi Anne,

             It doesn’t stack up for me at this stage, but something’s to look into in any case.
             • Viper Anne …

               9 December 2012 at 8:40 am

               I will give you an example that happened a few months ago. The MP in question ‘outed’ one of The Standard’s most well known (and highly regarded) commenters… on Red Alert. I doubt the person in question was too phased because he’s never made any attempt to hide his real identity anyway. What I’m saying is: she has a history of this kind of silly behaviour.
           • karol 9.1.3.2.1.2

             9 December 2012 at 8:33 am

             If it’s not an LP campaign, then it’s a further example of Shearer’s poor control over his caucus – he’s heavy handed with MPs he, or his leadership team see as a threat, but lets his supporters get away with actions that undermine the principles of a left wing party.

             PS: Is it possible that the repressive approach of the leadership team to MPs in the Labour caucus, is causing lone MPs to act pre-emptively against LP members, in order to preserve their own standing with the caucus leaders?
         • Just viping 9.1.3.2.2

           9 December 2012 at 9:07 am

           Muzza, you seem to be saying a) What’s so special about Colonial Viper?
           and b) you question the importance to CV of his pseudonymity, and believe you have a right to know his reasons and have the right to judge whether his reasons are “valid.”

           You do get that CV is a commenter on a blog, and you have no right to know anything about his “real” life? Any more than I have a right to any information about yours. That CV has been silenced (albeit temporarily I hope) by Labour management shows his right to privacy is very important to him. And CV is one of us.

           And we know, because it has been discussed here extensively, that some, maybe many, would not be able to participate at all, or would have their right to freedom of speech significantly curtailed without this protection.

           Labour management is silencing dissent by bullying its own members (who are, it’s worth noting, its (unpaid) workforce). If you don’t see this as important enough to warrant a rallying of support from this community, and/or don’t see CV as ‘important” enough, I’d be kind of interested in your criteria.

           Who would be important enough?
           What would be important enough?
           • muzza 9.1.3.2.2.1

             9 December 2012 at 10:12 am

             Muzza, you seem to be saying a) What’s so special about Colonial Viper?

             Thats not what I’m saying

             and b) you question the importance to CV of his pseudonymity, and believe you have a right to know his reasons and have the right to judge whether his reasons are “valid.”

             Everyone who wants to remain anonymous should be able to expect that is maintainable, whether or not that becomes maintainable will depend on how out there they put themselves, and the type of people they are putting themselves out there with/against. Politics is theatre, the media is theatre, and the people inside the political theatre are low quality, as we see by the state of NZ.
             Should people be outed, or threatened to be outed, no, but is that likely to happen, yes of course!

             If en masse people, following some vague details and a blogger saying he needs to check out for a while, want to show outward solidarity, thats great, and I understand the positions people are taking.

             So far as having a right to know, no, not at all, just the right to ask questions (answered ot not), and form my own opinions based on what makes sense from the little info available!

             You do get that CV is a commenter on a blog, and you have no right to know anything about his “real” life? Any more than I have a right to any information about yours. That CV has been silenced (albeit temporarily I hope) by Labour management shows his right to privacy is very important to him. And CV is one of us.

             Again, I do not want/expect/have rights to anything, and yes he is as far as I am aware, a commentator on a blog, and seemingly LP member. Would that in its own right be enough to attact that sort of attention, unless the MP involved has lost the plot, ot there ir more to the story than has come across the posts – I suspect much of both. –

             If CV has been silenced that is his choice to allow, or not, and if the threat of being outed has lead to the silencing, that is unfortunate, but again, its his choice. Do I agree with outing, absolutely not, but see my comment above about who/how much people involved themselves.

             And we know, because it has been discussed here extensively, that some, maybe many, would not be able to participate at all, or would have their right to freedom of speech significantly curtailed without this protection.

             Actually i think there may be a bigger agenda at play, in so far as the *freedom of the net/speech* is concerned, and perhaps this might be a trigger. Hard to say though as its all rather under the radar from what I can tell.

             Labour management is silencing dissent by bullying its own members (who are, it’s worth noting, its (unpaid) workforce). If you don’t see this as important enough to warrant a rallying of support from this community, and/or don’t see CV as ‘important” enough, I’d be kind of interested in your criteria.

             I see the LP having been taken over decades back, and woudl consider this alledged behaviour as another example of the takeover of politics, which has allowed the takeover of NZ, in case no one else noticed!

             Yes its important, but I’m not the blond support/cheer leader type – CV is one of the many commentators here which can be enjoyed, and if he is being harrassed, that is out of order.

             Support takes many forms, not always the outwardly obvious!
             • Just viping …

               9 December 2012 at 10:40 am

               a) Yeah, all the world is a stage. And?
               b)Are you familiar with the concept of victim-blaming?
               c)What, exactly, do you imagine is flying under what radar?
               d)Support and victim-blaming are mutually exclusive as far as I’m concerned.
             • colonial locus …

               9 December 2012 at 11:23 am

               Maintainable

               What the heck are you talking about. Threatening to expose someone when they’ve used a pseudonym to debate on blogs is bullying at best and blackmail at worst.
               This issue is not “political theatre”, nor is it just “harassment”, it is both a personal attack on an individual’s rights, and total contempt for the premise which gives bloggers the freedom to question the means and ends of those in power without having their livelihood threatened by bullies.

               Outed

               What kind of word is that? To me it suggests that you equate the threat of damaging someone by releasing their private information to an inevitable act of ‘bringing something out into the open’
               And do you really think CV would be receiving this degree of support if it were purely based on “Following vague details”
               Over the last two days reliable contributors have corroborated information that blackmail/bullying is happening. But keep on asking your questions…..and forming your opinions.

               I’m not the blond support/cheer leader type

               Except when it comes to conspiracy theories.
   • Bill 9.2

     8 December 2012 at 10:24 am

     Haven’t ‘vipered’ me name. But have quietly wondered what the effect would be if every person simply posted under the name ‘colonial viper’ instead of variously x,y or z viper. A lot of the discussion around psuedonyms was that it potentially gave more power to the idea being expressed rather than the person expressing it.

     Everyone under the same posting name = absence of recognisable personality. Just wonder what it could do for enhancing debate/discussion of ideas?

     Anyway…wasn’t here yesterday. And just want to say that I’m more than just a little pissed off and angry that a commentator of the quality of CV has been (temporarily?) silenced.
   • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 9.3

     8 December 2012 at 12:41 pm

     Red striped viper in the green green grass.
   • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 9.4

     8 December 2012 at 4:11 pm

     r0b
     😀
     • F**king grumpy viper 9.4.1

       8 December 2012 at 6:54 pm

       This is fun….
   • Visubversaviper 9.5

     8 December 2012 at 5:33 pm

     One more viper!
     • F**king grumpy viper 9.5.1

       8 December 2012 at 7:06 pm

       This could catch on…..
10. bad12 10

    8 December 2012 at 10:22 am

    Just about forgot, a small spot of praise from an unlikely quarter directed at a just as unlikely recipient,

    Fonterra have just celebrated it’s one year of ‘milk in schools’ program in low decile schools in the Far North, reports are that milk consumption, (apparently off of the back of the ‘milk in schools), has risen markedly in the North and reports from the education sector say that after the daily dose of the white stuff the kids are showing definite rises in levels of both happiness and concentration,

    Fonterra should (a), be congratulated for the ‘milk in schools’ initiative, and, urged to take the ‘trial’ further and roll it out across the country….
11. starlight 11

    8 December 2012 at 11:29 am

    Has Cunliffe been allowed back into the fold again? he was speaking in parliament the other
    day,also there was an economic meeting in Invercargill last night, from all media releases
    on it he was confirmed to attend,while the local MP, Roy, declined, there were others confirmed as well including Winston,Turei, i can’t find anything on the meeting at all today.
    CV, your fight is our fight for democracy,we stand together.
    • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 11.1

      8 December 2012 at 12:42 pm

      Nope Clayton crosgrove took the promised spot
      • starlight 11.1.1

        8 December 2012 at 12:47 pm

        Yes,just found it on the side ticker,by bsprout,the best man was missing.
12. Te Reo Viper 12

    8 December 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Here’s one for CV:
     
    “The internet, our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen”
     
    A new interview with Julian Assange in the Grauniad.
13. Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 13

    8 December 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Hmmmm Internet is simple words and words have power. More likely it’s who control the flow of words and there meaning that have the power…or not as words are free
14. Rhinoviper 14

    8 December 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Interesting interview by Kim Hill of Rebecca Watson, sceptic and feminist on, among other things, attempts at censorship of women by intimidation and cyberbullying:

    http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/sat/sat-20121208-1105-rebecca_watson_girls_and_shopping-048.mp3

    About 26 minutes, 9.4 MB
15. Morrissey 15

    8 December 2012 at 3:10 pm

    LEST WE FORGET
    Why the U.K./U.S. axis is determined to get Julian Assange

    http://www.collateralmurder.com/
16. VindowViper (sees more clearly) 16

    8 December 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Quite a shaky eq this morning here in NZ – 5.something. Felt it rocking in Nelson at 7.25 a.m.
17. Draco T Bastard 17

    8 December 2012 at 3:48 pm

    After extensive mathematical modeling, scientist declares “Earth is F**ked”

    “What happens is not too surprising: the economy very fast chews up the environmental resources, depletes those reservoirs, resulting in a significant amount of environmental damage,” Werner said during his talk. He is still finishing up the model, so no details on the inputs and the final simulations are available. Still, I asked him afterward to clarify if his model had answered his baseline question. Is Earth fucked? “More or less,” he said.

    It’s the stupid economy. It’s very nature must result in all resources being used up as fast as possible which must result in the collapse of the environment.
    • kiwi_prometheus 17.1

      8 December 2012 at 9:47 pm

      Hard to take seriously some guy who dresses like he rides a unicycle around the big tent.

      Actually he looks like he fire dances to Goa trance on ‘rooms till dawn and has those uber ketch psuedo mystical psychedelic posters plastered all over his bedroom wall ( his mum won’t let him put them up in the TV room )

      Predictably, he blames everything on Capitalism and wants us to shift to some notion he has about an anarchic never-never-land, Romantic pre industrial society – which was oh so full of loving kindness and harmony with nature.

      Is it really practical or even possible for the 30 million + inhabitants of Tokyo to just walk away from their skyscrapers back into the forests and fields, picking wild berries and digging up roots?

      Typical marxist derivative Leftie nonsense.
      • VindowViper(RL) 17.1.1

        8 December 2012 at 11:33 pm

        Hard to take seriously some guy who dresses like he rides a unicycle around the big tent.

        Only old white guys in suits get taken seriously.

        Predictably, he blames everything on Capitalism

        And how do you think that’s working out? Social, economic and environmental collapse starting to unravel before your eyes … and you will not see.

        which was oh so full of loving kindness and harmony with nature.

        Human beings are neither angels nor devils, but adapt their behaviour to their environment.

        Typical marxist derivative Leftie nonsense.

        How about saying something interesting for once?
        • kiwi_prometheus 17.1.1.1

          9 December 2012 at 3:36 am

          “And how do you think that’s working out? Social, economic and environmental collapse starting to unravel before your eyes … and you will not see.”

          I’m not claiming that Capitalism is perfect. But I’m not some extreme anti capitalist pushing some Rousseau Romantic “civilisation is decadent lets take all our clothes off and go back to nature” la la land nonsense either.

          You would be wise to remember that the Left help build a balance between Democracy, social rights and Capitalism.
        • kiwi_prometheus 17.1.1.2

          9 December 2012 at 3:52 am

          “Only old white guys in suits get taken seriously.”

          You forgot to be heterophobic and chuck “straight” into that too. At least you got ageist, sexist and racist covered, 3 out of 4, not bad.

          No doubt like all the rest of the little PC foot soldiers around here, you believe being sexist, racist, heterophobic and ageist is all ok when the target is the sworn enemy.
          • mike e 17.1.1.2.1

            9 December 2012 at 2:19 pm

            kp go back to your closet
      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.2

        8 December 2012 at 11:47 pm

        k_p, you just proved that you’re a fucken idiot. Given the data and the argument you then attacked the person rather than the data and the argument, i.e, you advanced a typical ad hominem attack characteristic of the terminally stupid.
        • kiwi_prometheus 17.1.2.1

          9 December 2012 at 3:30 am

          The bloody article itself tries to make something out of his techno stoner pink hair, so I don’t see why I’m not allowed.
          • Draco T Bastard 17.1.2.1.1

            9 December 2012 at 11:19 am

            I didn’t say you weren’t allowed, I just said you showed your stupidity by doing so. And yes, I thought the same about the article for doing so as it had nothing to do with his point.
18. Colonial Weka 18

    8 December 2012 at 7:52 pm

    Some good laughs today, courtesy of CV… Vindow Viper, and the Standard as a nest of vipers 😀
     
     
19. Tazireviper 19

    8 December 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Just joining the nest of
20. Vipers colon 20

    8 December 2012 at 9:14 pm

    I’m going to have to stop this………please come back CV. Just tell the bastards to get f**cked.
21. Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21

    9 December 2012 at 8:47 am

    It’s one thing for an MP and one presume on behalf of the leadership clique, to have a private chat regarding some kind of perceived dissent but surely one is allowed to be vocal in expressing opinion.
    To go further and give a stop or expulsion order is borderline dictatorial and surely runs counter to the very principles of Labour. The double standard vs CV and JT is staggering…and the crux ban ban ban lets ban blogging.
    David ” stalin” Shearer lived by his action and deeds now he must back off or fall come feb.

    I think time for the real leader in the pack to step up,.
    Grant Robertson this is your time, early but necessary and please please take cunliffe with you, not as finance but economic development and policy. Dull Parker can host out treasury.
    • karol 21.1

      9 December 2012 at 8:55 am

      As far as I can see Robertson is part of the current leadership team that is causing all the divisions and ruthless repression.  The LP needs another leadership team to step up.  An Cunliffe would be the best person for finance.
      • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21.1.1

        9 December 2012 at 10:31 am

        Wheels within wheels

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS