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Open mike 09/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 9th, 2022 - 361 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

361 comments on “Open mike 09/02/2022 ”

  1. Breakfast entertainment: check out #Dumbkirk and #Clownvoy

    These fools ran an open survey – Do you want to end the vaccine mandate – 98% No!

    Do you want Jacinda to resign – 96% No!

    Hackers spammed telegraph and zello (?) to give wrong directions etc.

    There's one hell of a lot good and proper in this country when it can ridicule these covidiots.

    It really is a good laugh.

    • Shanreagh 1.1

      I made a comment last night wondering if a meeting we had planned for tonight at a venue in Hill St Wellington near Lower Molesworth st would be cancelled, it has been.

      With the ignoring of mask rules en masse by this occupying group that I saw last night, it has the possibility of becoming an omicron super spreader event.

      Trevor Mallard has given them notice about tents, smoking and drinking in Parliament's grounds. Smoking by people so-called concerned about health? Parliament has different rules about gatherings from other public areas and protestors would be unwise to ignore them.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/trevor-mallard-orders-anti-mandate-protesters-to-remove-tents-or-face-trespass-from-parliament-grounds.html

      Sad really the copy catting from overseas by this anti vax, anti mandate crowd. Same silly signs such as those about natural immunity as overseas.

      • Anne 1.1.1

        …. it has the possibility of becoming an omicron super spreader event.

        Precisely what I have been thinking. I can imagine how Wellingtonians would feel if it comes to pass and there is every chance it could.

        Let my imagination run away with me over-night…

        What if a bunch of Standardistas collectively went off their trolleys (me included) and decided for some spurious reason to travel to Wellington en masse and put up tents on parliament grounds. Shanreagh would be the local organiser and Chris T her deputy. 😛

        Within five minutes the police would be there physically dragging us off (complete with pup tents) and prosecuting us in the process.

        These morons are still there causing havoc around parliament and elsewhere.

        When are the powers-that-be going to take off their kid gloves and start treating them the same way they are treating others.

        • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1.1

          'When are the powers-that-be going to take off their kid gloves and start treating them the same way they are treating others.'

          Thats the problem, they're not taking off the kid gloves in the first place

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.2

          Beau of the Fifth Column has a good take on dealing with these "Freedom for me, but not for Thee" protesters. Basically, restrict their practical logistics but let them be for a while. Screaming that "they" are taking away your freedom, for days on end, without anyone taking away your freedom, tends to make you look silly and you run out of puff.

      • Blade 1.1.2

        Yes, and now the mood has turn ugly today. A trespass notice has been issued. No doubt protesters will be texting for support.

        If I was the police commander, I would move now. However, I doubt police will move straight away – there are Maori in the crowd. Cuddles Costa will want to explore all options. I hope I'm wrong.

        Like I said yesterday, Jacinda and Luxon and all those other political wastes of space may have a lot to answer for for not addressing the crowd yesterday, should things turn violent.

        • joe90 1.1.2.1

          should things turn violent.

          Yeah, because they made us do it.

          //

          • Blade 1.1.2.1.1

            No, of course not.

            They were remiss in not addressing a part of NZ society. Many of whom would have voted for political parties in parliament.

            Parliament has without words told these people to fuck off. Thanks for your vote, but we’ll take it from here.

            Geez, a copy of Dale Carnegie's book can be picked up for a few dollars.

            • joe90 1.1.2.1.1.1

              A fan of Carnegie's bible for con artists.

              Who woulda thunk it!

              /

              • Blade

                ''A fan of Carnegie's bible for con artists.''

                We have psychic on this blog,

                What do you mean a bible for con artists?

                • McFlock

                  The satirical writer Sinclair Lewis waited a year to offer his scathing critique. He described Carnegie's method as teaching people to "smile and bob and pretend to be interested in other people's hobbies precisely so that you may screw things out of them."[20][21]

                  From wikipedia.

                  It's a bit unfair in some ways, but it's also true. I've seen it on people's shelves alongside books by Sam Walton, Bob Jones, and dolt45. They were very insincere people, too.

                  But I can also see how it can help some neuro-atypical folks, or how it might remove some of the fears of socialising that people can have.

                  I don't recall much in the book about dealing with an angry crowd of folks who have generalised cognitive impairment, though. I could probably write the book on that one, but the first chapter would be titled "don't" and ways to avoid being exposed to them. The cops probably know most of the other chapter titles. Except the ones like "be funny".

                  • Blade

                    As a matter of fact I don't entirely disagree with some criticisms of Carnegie's books. Same goes for: ''The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People'' and 'Your Erroneous Zones.'

                    We must also remember the times in which his books were written. Social mores were different. And he wasn't going after the intellectual set, more the average Joe.

                    That said, there is gold to be mined in his books. Using a persons name in conversation for example. Never telling a person they are wrong IF IT ISN'T necessary.

                    Things nobody thinks about nowadays.

                    Some have asked me what my secret is when dealing with people, given they know I have little time for people generally.

                    Having thought about the question, I said, 'I say Please and Thankyou.'' And if there's anything unusual about the person eg name, culture and what they are doing or wearing, I comment on it.

                    The things I have learnt from folks has been incredible.

                    I put that skill down to Dale Carnegie…and I am thankful.

                    But like you say, Carngie's book doesn't cover situations when things have gone off the reservation. That’s where my CQB training comes in handy. I'm also grateful for that.

                    • McFlock

                      There are many options after the point that self-help books don't help but before the point that butch fisticuffs become necessary.

                      Not turning up in the first place is one.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    "smile and bob and pretend to be interested in other people's hobbies precisely so that you may screw things out of them."

                    Blade?

                    Seems so…

                • joe90

                  What do you mean a bible for con artists?

                  Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People is about getting people to trust you. Begin with affirmative questioning to create shared values and experiences, never bag them, butter them up, create a feeling of familiarity and get afoot in the door.

                  All classic scam techniques and before you know it, your new best friend has picked your pocket.

                  But then you're probably easy meat, eh bro.

                  • Blade

                    A knife can cut food or kill.

                    Your mindset is on display.

                    • Blazer

                      Its also good for sticking in peoples…backs…'always be sincere,even when you don't..really…mean it'.

                    • Blade

                      What the hell is that meant to mean?.

                      Put it in plain language so I can understand.

                      Don't confuse ordinary life with blog life.

          • aj 1.1.2.1.2

            Blade infers they would be happy and merrily wander home if Adern, Luxon and others had come down to 'talk' to them.

            Not a dog's chance. They would shout them down and still dig in.

            I hope it rains, and rains heaps. Used to love camping out in the rain.

            snap Shanreagh bet me to it.

        • Shanreagh 1.1.2.2

          Like I said yesterday, Jacinda and Luxon and all those other political wastes of space may have a lot to answer for for not addressing the crowd yesterday, should things turn violent.

          Trev might come there with a microphone to read out the formal trespass notice…..would that do?

          Linking non attendance to later violence on the part of the protestors is drawing a long and illogical bow there Blade.

          So they come our say 'hi guys, we both support vaccines and mandates so nothing to see here' and the protestors would peacefully disperse thinking of rainbows, blue skies, flowers and lambs.

          I don't think so.

          • Blade 1.1.2.2.1

            ''Trev might come there with a microphone to read out the formal trespass notice…..would that do?''

            Not without heavy security. I would also have come out earlier in the peace, and taken police action sooner.

            ''Linking non attendance to later violence on the part of the protestors is drawing a long and illogical bow there Blade.''

            No, it's not. Given the times, given the demographic, given the issue and given the responsibility of parliament. However, there can be no justification for violence from protesters ( at present). They are now impinging on the rights of others to feel safe and go about their business.

            You may remember Labour had no problem trotting Parekura and Johhny out for the braying crowd during the foreshore protests. Geez, I felt sorry for those bros. The loss of mana was terrible. Aunt Helen watched on from the 9th floor. Jacinda can't even be bothered doing that.

            But I think everyone is missing my point. It's not about addressing the crowd. That won't happen. The crowd are not interested in what Jacinda has to say.

            It's about APPEARING in front of the crowd and doing your best for a few minutes as you are abused and just treated like crap.

            Having done that, Jacinda would have served the ball back into the court of anti vaxxers. Journalists could then clobber anti vaxxers who say the government isn't listening with – ''but Jacinda tried to listen, you lot shouted her down.''

            As it is now, Jainda and Luxon have shown contempt. And somewhere down the line they and this nation are going to pay.

            To be fair, if I was leading the PMs protection squad I would be advising the PM to preferably not face the crowd. And I would be advising her that for the safety of herself and her family she must leave NZ for good after her tenure as PM is up.

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.2.2.1.1

              As it is now, Jainda and Luxon have shown contempt

              Had that been their intent, I expect these experienced communicators would not have minced their words.

              Instead they charitably refrained from criticizing the dangerous fools who had gathered to demonstrate their gullibility to a nation that is, on the average, far less charitably disposed.

              And somewhere down the line they and this nation are going to pay.

              Channeling the Unabomber are we? It seems your ill-considered devotion to this cause has cost you a balanced perspective. This government's Covid response is remarkably popular. It is not the PM that is endangering herself, but the gratuitous fools compromising the Covid response who are accumulating a karmic burden faster than they can pay it off.

              Be careful, Blade, and tell your bloody fool mates to be careful – you are not within a bull's roar of representation, much less a majority. It won't be fools like you that sit in judgement should matters go south, but an impartial judiciary whose patience for fools is far from infinite.

              • Blade

                Two things.. and maybe some more.

                1- Your ignorance of real life is astounding.

                2- You don't read.

                3- You can't extrapolate future possibilities.

                ''Channelling the Unabomber are we?''

                No, yogi bear.

                • Stuart Munro

                  As usual you have nothing to offer but your breathtaking ignorance and arrogance.

                  Not only do I read extensively, but I work in the real world, alongside plenty of vaccine sceptics better informed than you.

                  The future possibility I extrapolate for you, troll, is a long overdue ban.

                • KJT

                  Over 95% of adult New Zealanders sensibly voted with their feet and got vaccinated.

                  A right wing propaganda TV show was shocked to find that over 90% still supported lockdown and mandates where necessary.

                  It is only a small percentage of delusional idiots, are opposed to necessary measures to fight a pandemic.

                  "Democracy is a bummer" Eh?

            • observer 1.1.2.2.1.2

              Blade says:

              I would be advising her that for the safety of herself and her family she must leave NZ for good after her tenure as PM is up.

              I usually ignore most of his waffle, not worth engaging with, but this is beyond the pale.

              Way beyond.

      • weka 1.1.3

        I made a comment last night wondering if a meeting we had planned for tonight at a venue in Hill St Wellington near Lower Molesworth st would be cancelled, it has been.

        What kind of meeting, and sorry, why was it cancelled?

        • Shanreagh 1.1.3.1

          A group of crafters! Very threatening!

          Actually cancelled by us as we cannot get access to the venue/car park by car (many are elderly) or bus. We are also aware of the almost total non observation of wearing masks or social distancing that would put us all at risk if we had to park or bus outside the blockade and walk in, masked and then through the anti crowds to get there.

          • Ross 1.1.3.1.1

            A meeting of crafters cancelled? That pales into insignificance when people have lost their jobs because they’ve made the entirely reasonable decision not to get vaccinated.

            The nearly 200-page pandemic plan from the Health Ministry makes no mention of lockdowns, vaccine passes or mandates. They are terrible policies. Hopefully more protests are to come!

            https://faculty.rx.umaryland.edu/pdoshi/files/2021/11/Doshi-MedChi-talk-script.pdf

            • McFlock 1.1.3.1.1.1

              "Entirely reasonable", huh.

              Good to know.

              • Shanreagh

                Of course Ross has not told about the reasonable decisions not to get vaccinated. I'd be really interested to listen to some that are not affected by the 'woo woo' that has been on the groups' call to action and social media.

                Are there any…I am sure there will be its just they have been a long time surfacing?

                By the way, I don't want to' does not seem to be a reasonable decision, cue an explanation ……

                But I am not holding my breath.

                • McFlock

                  Thing is, people with known contraindications still qualify for the vaccine pass and would have kept their jobs. Mostly because they're so few in number.

                  If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated for reasons that don't qualify them for the vaccine pass, even if there are one or two people with genuine concerns (but the literature hasn't yet picked them up to qualify them for the pass) the vast majority have not made an "entirely reasonable" decision. Maybe it's religion, or some weird belief that the vax pass isn't about preserving life in a pandemic, but there's something unreasonable there.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.3.1.1.2

              You just want to mock without reading the background.

              Those gathered there look as though they owed more to an intensive use of social media than an actual loss of a job because of the mandate.

              Of course people have a right to peaceful protest, no-one has said that just as others have a right to pass and repass on footpaths and roads to go about their own peaceful and law abiding lives. One right has been respected and the other has not. There will be workers and others trying to catch buses, walk to walk, shop, go to Dr's appointments that now cannot get through that area.

              Asking for respect for their views while camping on the cenotaph, a memorial to the dead NZers of WW1 & WW2 is most odd. Asking for respect while not masking to stop the spread is not respectful. Drinking and smoking on areas where this is forbidden is not respectful.

              I would suggest that the way to have influenced would have been to have sat silently and courteously, not smoking, not drinking, not camping on monuments to the dead and if you are in a campervan shitting above the same monument. To have handed out well thought out and printed pamphlets summarising what they were about. Unmoving. You know a peaceful protest may have encouraged leaders to come out.

              • Ross

                There will be workers and others trying to catch buses, walk to walk, shop, go to Dr's appointments that now cannot get through that area.

                Once again you miss the point. What you’ve described pales into insignificance compared to those affected by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes. Some anti-anti-vaxxers can be slow on the uptake.

                Meanwhile, surgical waiting lists continue to lengthen. Patience is a virtue lol

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/457060/surgery-waitlists-grow-on-west-coast

                https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/23/kiwis-with-postponed-elective-surgeries-now-face-long-wait/

                https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/126955421/christchurch-surgery-patients-turned-away-due-to-unmanageable-waitlist

                • Shanreagh

                  Sorry you are all over the place. We are talking here about the protestors at Parliament. Lockdowns fitted the purpose, they were enacted under legislation and regulation which was challenged in the courts and found to be OK.

                  We operate under the traffic light system now.

                  To be anti vax means to take responsibility for one's actions just as the consequences of decisions to have a vaccine are the responsibility of those who have taken the vaccine.

                  You seem to be advocating a 'let it rip' policy or every person for themselves. This is irresponsible in the face of a pandemic. We have a public health responsibility for the whole population that can transcend individual rights. At the moment despite Omicron worsening we are able to travel in NZ freely (how else did the protestors get here?)

                  If we let it rip the waiting lists for elective surgery will get longer and longer and ops further away as we cope with the worsening Omicron situation.

                  Slowing down the spread of all the variants had as one of its aims the protection against unmanageable covid surges so that our health sector could cope.

                  I have no problem with this. Why do you?

          • weka 1.1.3.1.2

            ah ok, thanks. The street names meant nothing to me.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.3.1.2.1

              Basically last night it was around parliament grounds on three sides…..happens also to be a major motorway access, access to rail and bus hubs – buses have been affected. There are businesses and residences just across the road from Parliament grounds.

              • weka

                is that not normal for protests at parliament?

                • mpledger

                  Usually there is a march to parliament then everyone meets on the grass and has a bit of a talk. If there is any impediment to traffic, it's usually because of congestion not overt attempts to block traffic. The exception was the X ralley that blocked Lambton Quay but they had such beautiful singing it was a pleasure to walk by them.

                  My collegues said yesterday there was an aggressive vibe but today it's more peaceful. I have to say there is some serious amount of money tied up the car/utes/caravans hanging around. They are blocking up a service way so they are pretty much a fire hazard – any emergency around our building would be a serious problem.

                  • weka

                    Hmm, what about hikoi? Or other marches that start somewhere else?

                    • Shanreagh

                      Unusual for them to camp at Parliament ….many would be hosted by marae around such as Ngati Poneke, out the Hutt, Porirua, various school camps or friends. The point is that these Hikoi march to Wellington. Assemble at Civic Square and then march (on foot) to Parliament.

                      Staying at Parliament is not part of the protest. This is a copy cat from the Canadian experience.

                    • weka

                      I was referring to the disruption to the surrounding area, roads, traffic etc.

                    • mpledger

                      Marches block up the traffic but once the march has arrived at parliament then it's usually no further impediment unless it's a problem with the number of people. The college kids climate strike rally was an issue but it was more because of numbers and herding cats rather than planned obnoxious behaviour.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "copy cat "

                      Operative phrase.

                • Shanreagh

                  No. Not long term, not lots of vehicles. not lots of people camping out.

                  mpledger has it about right.

                  Also the Foreshore and Seabed protest in 2004 along Lambton Quay was huge, walking, respectful and friendly. In fact it was amazing watching people duck out to the road to say hello to someone walking by, share a few hugs, (you could then) walk with them few metres and then duck back to the crowd. They had some gats and it was very calm and respectful.

                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hikoi-size-estimates-range-from-10000-to-30000/HUI2B3Y3BZOFXPOQBPBZGURIHI/

                  There have been tent occupations around parliament but mostly they get moved on pretty quickly. The precinct around parliament has its own special regs about disorder etc.

                  Usually have a few speeches and had a petition to someone, organised prior and away everyone goes. Most unusual to have people there for any lengths of time.

                  • weka

                    one of the things that interests me is that the reason why XR in the UK were so successful in shifting awareness of the climate/eco crisis is that they disrupted traffic. If people object to traffic disruption in Wellington this week, they're saying that it's not a legitimate form of protest or civil disobedience. That's precedent setting.

                    People are entitled to express how pissed off they are by the disruption, whatever the protest, but that's a different thing.

                    • Shanreagh

                      I don't think it is the disruption of traffic, after all with the on foot marches we have traffic disruption. We have disruption when we have festival marches, graduations, Santa parades that go the same route (leaving off the end bit in Parliament) etc

                      The ones I have spoken to are annoyed that this protest is camping out in Parliament and around the city. So being *disrespectful about places, littering, shitting yahooing, tooting.

                      Also the ones I have spoken to can't see the linking of this* to successful protest outcomes. The longer they stay the less respect.

                    • weka

                      ah, disrespect, that makes more sense. Maybe that's what people could object to then?

                • Shanreagh

                  No. If roads are blocked it is temporary as marchers walk past. Roads are opened up immediately afterwards. In fact it is funny as a bus or someone's work vehicle might get caught near the end of the protest marchers and they usually get a cheers from those along the streets.

                  No-one brings their cars or vans.

                  In fact as there are so few, people-wise, of them compared to other big Wellington protests it is the bringing of the vehicles that 'makes' their protest. Many are not fooled though.

                  Unusual for people coming to Wellington on big days (at the Stadium) to park to impede traffic or park over hydrants or exits from buildings. Usually if that happens they are towed very quickly, usually before the game is finished. .

                  • weka

                    We definitely blocked the motorway in Dunedin during the Anti-Tour protest in 1981, disruption was a key reason why the anti-Tour protests worked. Anti-Nat protests in the early 90s did too, less successfully. Everyone was tired by then.

                    Lightweights now I guess.

      • DukeEll 1.1.4

        Christ, those are huge pearls you're grabbing.

        Smoking? Drinking? Quelle Horreur!!

        Like most of these things, the coverage and protest against the protest is more useful to the protests cause than the protest.

        @anne 1.1.1 as well as this, imagine if your protest wasn't dragged away by the boys in blue within 5 minutes?

        • Shanreagh 1.1.4.1

          Duke Ell…….I actually think it is hypocritcal to advance a protest against the vaccines on health grounds while fagging away.

          As someone cruelly said on a tweet I saw there are quite a few people with obvious comorbidities at the protest that would do well with the protection of a vaccine.

          • DukeEll 1.1.4.1.1

            I don't disagree, but do we need the level of moral outrage that fatties are SMOKING and DRINKING on PARLIAMENT grounds? let it all hang out.

            this country would better all round if we all stopped disapproving of every lifestyle choice we don't agree with. let cafe's serve alcohol without a licence, want to eat that glorious cheeseburger with onion rings? enjoy my brother. Smoking? what are you smoking? not for me but you enjoy

            • weka 1.1.4.1.1.1

              fatties?

            • Shanreagh 1.1.4.1.1.2

              What? I mentioned cigarettes……so protesting about a vaccine/mandates that are an aid to good health while fagging away…hypocritcal to the max. Drinking, always a good way to lead to a rationale response, NOT.

              Mallard was warning that these things are not tolerated on Parliament's grounds for anybody…..not just a rule or two brought in for this group.

        • weka 1.1.4.2

          If I was organising a protest or being a marshal, I'd take a dim view of people drinking. That's just stupid shit and asking for trouble.

          • McFlock 1.1.4.2.1

            I'm not even a marshal, but I wonder where they're going to the toilet.

            • weka 1.1.4.2.1.1

              rofl. That's equal part 'thanks for that image' and 'jfc/facepalm' at them.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.4.2.1.2

              Railway station, bus terminal, under the trees around Parliament & the Old Wooden Buildings, in their camper vans with the on board toilets directly above the Cenotaph that they are parked on. Probably preparing food around the Cenotaph, that's what they were doing last night.

              More images..

  2. tsmithfield 2

    A rather sad comment from HDPA at (around 4.08 on Newstalk ZB on demand last night).

    She started by talking about a developer in Christchurch who says there is only about half the normal amount of housing stock available for rent in Christchurch at the moment.

    Then she talked about how she is moving down to Wellington to be with her husband with the birth of their baby not far away.

    She said she they decided to rent their house. But when they looked at all the hoops they had to jump through to meet the new government rules they decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and decided Airbnb it instead.

    She also talked of a friend who had a similar experience. Her friend was going to have to do things such as put gutterings over her windows. This, despite the fact that she had never had water intrusion through her windows all the time she was there. She too decided it wasn't worth the effort to rent it.

    So, both these houses are now in the pool of 200000 ghost houses in NZ.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/119636091/200k-empty-ghost-houses-why-and-what-would-get-them-into-the-market

    This is another example of well intentioned government plans to make things better for renters actually having the opposite effect.

    I am all for renters being able to live in housing of a reasonable standard. But if these standards are expected to be a lot higher than housing the average kiwi lives in, then I think many otherwise landlords are going to decide it isn't worth the trouble, thus reducing available housing for rent.

    • If you have a property you want to rent in Wellington and it needs a bit of gutter over a window that is hardly a high barrier-it would probably be covered by the first week's rent and I think would be tax allowable. And in these leaky building days, and with Wellywood's famous driving rain, this sounds reasonable.

      More anti-government spin from HDPA methinks.

    • dv 2.2

      But when they looked at all the hoops they had to jump through to meet the new government rules they decided it wasn't worth the trouble

      The house must have been crap then.

      No heating?, ventilation? leaky? no insulation? draughty?

      https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/healthy-homes/about-the-healthy-homes-standards/

      We have a friend with 3 1bm flats in wellington.
      The agent got a report for healthy homes. They had to put in a in a range hood, sort out some leaks around windows and sort some guttering.
      Relatively minor.

      • tc 2.2.1

        My thoughts exactly….can't be arsed bringing it up to scratch so takes the Airbnb option.

        Like her employer she's part of the problem, entitled with a soapbox and agenda.

    • Blazer 2.3

      Buying a house and leaving it empty is a stunning investment.

      It 'earns' more than a person working.

      Imagine buying a house in Aucks for $1mil in 2020…you would have made' $300,000 for the year leaving it empty=$6000 a week.

      Govt has no concerns with…that…very good.blush

      • Puckish Rogue 2.3.1

        Heres a chart from RBNZ charting house prices and values for the last 21 years.

        Some interesting stuff in there, if you're into that kind of thing.

        https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key-graphs/key-graph-house-price-values

      • mikesh 2.3.2

        The country badly needs a land tax. A capital gains tax wouldn't really cut it, at least not if the seller can pocket 67% of any gain.

        • Blazer 2.3.2.1

          This Govt is absolutely not…interested.

          Highest house prices in the world.

          Highest rents in the world.

          Over 23,000 people living in motels.

          'hey we are doing well with our response to…Covid'!

            • Blazer 2.3.2.1.1.1

              '-Mike Treen-'

              We must go beyond trying to fix a broken system. We need to take the economic power being kept in the hands of the 1% out of their hands. That means making all money and its creation a public service. That means the banks, pension funds, insurance companies have to be nationalised and placed under democratic control and planning. The 1% have to be expropriated and the economy made to meet human needs and not be forced to only serve private profit and greed.'

              The impossible…dream.

              • Gypsy

                Gee sound awfully like communism. And didn't end well?

                • Blazer

                  Stick any label you like on it.

                  Can't see how 1% of the population having the power in their hands to create and distribute money…to whoever they wish…is a good thing.

                  U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time (usdebtclock.org)

                  • Gypsy

                    Who is this 1% who can create and distribute money?

                    • Blazer

                      Start with the U.S Federal Reserve -private banking consortium who allocate 'money' to primary lenders…i.e the large financial institutions…JP.Morgan,Citibank,Goldman Sachs,Wells Fargo..et al.

                      They kindly offer the average hamster in the wheel, interest bearing mortgages and credit to ensure his obedience and docility for most of his…working life.

                  • Gypsy

                    "Start with the U.S Federal Reserve -private banking consortium who allocate 'money' to primary lenders…"
                    The Fed is not a 'private banking consortium'. It is the central bank of the US.

                • Blazer

                  'try dem apples.

                  As Wall Street On Parade, two trial lawyers, the U.S. Department of Justice, the Senate’s Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and one of the bank’s former lawyers have suggested, the largest bank in the United States, JPMorgan Chase, has enshrined crime as a business model.

                  The man ultimately responsible for this business model is Jamie Dimon, the bank’s Chairman and CEO since December 31, 2006. Since 2014, JPMorgan Chase has the unprecedented distinction of admitting to five felony counts brought by the U.S. Department of Justice. In each case, it was given a deferred prosecution agreement and put on probation. (See a sampling of its Rap Sheet here.)

                • joe90

                  And didn't end well?

                  TBF, the end of unchecked capitalism and it's cousin labour theft is going to be so much more fun.

                  [deleted]

                  • Gypsy

                    Ah the French revolution replaced a feudalistic system with a liberal democracy. And it undid a lot of the economic constraints, including high taxation.

                    • KJT

                      The high taxation was on the poor.

                      The aristocracy collected the tax but didn't pay any themselves. . While also charging those they taxed, land rents, keeping them in poverty..

                      Ring a bell?

                    • McFlock

                      Ah the French revolution replaced a feudalistic system with a liberal democracy.

                      um – what?

                      The French Revolution replaced a feudalistic system with massacres, war, and then Napoleon.

                      When was the liberal democracy?

                    • Gypsy

                      "When was the liberal democracy?"

                      Yes, my bad. I was talking about a fairly long paradigm.

                    • Gypsy

                      "The aristocracy collected the tax but didn't pay any themselves. . While also charging those they taxed, land rents, keeping them in poverty. Ring a bell?"

                      Sounds like the soviet union.

                  • weka

                    You cannot advocate violence on this site. It’s a bannable offence. Gif deleted.

  3. pat 3

    "Should the alternatives of fixing the current arrangements with urgency be at least evaluated? What could these look like?"

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/some-questions-about-income-insurance

  4. observer 4

    Luxon on the Breakfast TV cuddle show … confirms that National will scrap Auckland fuel tax and also, scrap the new rules on property investors' deductability (loophole).

    So that's billions of dollars in revenue, gone.

    He gets away with this every day. Casually promising more money out ("invest"), and casually promising less money in. Of course he knows that's BS, and it's high time he was challenged on his fake maths.

    • Blade 4.1

      ''So that's billions of dollars in revenue, gone.''

      I think a persons political views will colour what they think of the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax.

      But I'm wondering should the tax be scrapped, where will those billions of dollars the government previously collected go?

      Back in the pockets of consumers?

      • observer 4.1.1

        And of course he can argue for that, no problem. Honest right wing message: less tax, less spending on public services.

        What he can't do is pretend he'll still have the money and will be able to spend it.

      • tsmithfield 4.1.2

        Nothing in comparison to Labour promising 100000 houses prior to being elected that they never had a snowballs chance in hell of building.

      • Obtrectator 4.1.3

        "Back in the pockets of consumers?" Yes, but only briefly, subsequent to exiting via payments for services the government used to provide – whether to private contractors or local bodies, makes no difference.

      • lprent 4.1.4

        ….where will those billions of dollars the government previously collected go?

        Not on the roads and transport that they have been collected for.

        Time to double or triple the RUC, either that or boot high axle weight trucks off Auckland roads.

        Personally the latter is what I am favour of. The number of trucks destroying Auckland roads is pretty extreme.

        If you look at the councils costs, fixing roads is one of the major ones. Most of which is caused by high axle weight vehicles.

    • Observer-Luxon needs that deductibility for his 7 houses. Have some compassion. smiley

      But Luxon also said that he preferred a congestion charge to the local fuel tax. He is right about this, and the fact that it has worked overseas. Technology makes it much easier to implement now too.

      • Blazer 4.2.1

        'luxury' Luxon would do well to refrain from housing policy statements given his mega landlord position.

      • Belladonna 4.2.2

        The regional fuel tax is a very large hammer, and ends up impacting many of the lowest paid, rather than the wealthy. And people who aren't contributing to the traffic congestion (for example, driving at non-peak times, or in the opposite direction), pay the same price as those who are sitting in the traffic jams.

        I'd like to see some form of congestion charging into and out of the CBD.
        I'd also like to see a very heavy carpark tax on all CBD carparks rented out for all-day parking (i.e. not paid for those used by shoppers- for up to 3 hours, but paid on all parks hired out for 3 hours+ – and typically 8 hours+) – between 6 am to 6 pm M-F. Perversely, all-day parking is considerably cheaper than hour-by-hour parking.

        It won't stop the highly-paid managers and lawyers taking their cars to work (and getting their employers to pay for the privilege) – but will make them subsidise public transport.

      • lprent 4.2.3

        …preferred a congestion charge to the local fuel tax…

        It isn't a replacement for the fuel tax because the only roads you could do it easily on are the state highways. ie run by Land Transport and the state.

        Most of the maintenance money spent on roads in Auckland is on local roads – not state highways. That along with congestion reduction on local roads using public transport is done by the local council, to whom the fuel tax goes to. That was the reason for it in the first place.

        Most of the cities you're basing your ideas on are probably more like Singapore – where transport is run by a single authority – not the split crap that Auckland has to put up with.

        The simplest way for Auckland to operate would be to lick trucks off Auckland roads. That would reduce the road maintenance by something like 80% immediately, and would free up the local road congestion as well.

        • Bearded Git 4.2.3.1

          Yes…agreed….little known fact is that trucks can cause up to 1000 times the road wear of a family sedan per journey.

          Trucking companies/trucks in general do not pay anywhere near enough for this privilege.

        • PsyclingLeft.always 4.2.3.2

          Hello lprent. Can only agree. And this heavy truck road damage is a NZ wide problem ! However the heavy truck lobby group has both major Input to some Political parties and VERY deep pockets.

          Oh also I had replied to Drowsy M. Kram and it was lost due to Net problems?

          Was re "Transition Engineering " By Susan Krumdieck. An awesome Solution Focused Book…and Person !

    • mikesh 4.3

      Allowing interest to be deducted for tax purposes is illogical, but I don't know whether that logic had any part in Robertson's decision. He probably just wanted to place landlords and other homeowners on an equal footing. To do that, however, he should perhaps make rental income non taxable, and other expenses relating to the property non deductible as well as interest.

      A universal land tax, offset by suitable income tax reductions in the case of own-your-owners would then be the way to go.

      • Gypsy 4.3.1

        "Allowing interest to be deducted for tax purposes is illogical"
        No it isn't. Interest is real cost of being a provider of housing. The removal of the interest deduction was another (failed) knee jerk reaction by a government who is failing in it's commitment to address the housing problems this country has had for decades.

      • Jimmy 4.3.2

        "Allowing interest to be deducted for tax purposes is illogical," – How is that? If I borrow $500k and purchase earth moving machinery, and then rent out the earth moving machinery, the rent is taxable income and the interest is a tax deductible expense.

        I borrow $500k and purchase a property and rent it out, the rent is taxable income but the interest is not deductible?

    • I think he was making a fair point, in that the government take is increasing with the fuel price rises. Therefore, the government can afford to cut back some of the tax.

      I would be in favour of a flat tax rate applied to fuel so that the amount of tax stays the same independent of fuel prices and only can be changed by government intervention.

  5. Blade 5

    HDPA with Sir Ian Taylor.

    Business is running scared of this vengeful government.

    I thought this government were just a bunch of incompetents. I was wrong.

    But should anyone be surprised? Of course not.

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/sir-ian-taylor-businesses-fear-consequences-if-they-speak-up/

    • Sanctuary 5.1

      So this is what the standard has become. Two right wing bubble heads quoting a far right radio host.

      • Blade 5.1.1

        Have some coffee and wake up. The subject matter is comments by Sir Ian Taylor.

        No one quoted HDPA.

        In fact it's your post that should bear scrutiny.

        • mpledger 5.1.1.1

          I heard him on RNZ last night and he spent the whole time saying nothing. The "I have three emails in front of me" may work to scare the bejesus out of his poor employees who have no means of defence but it just sounds like an incompetent manager making stuff up as he goes along. The guy is totally ignorant of probability if he things RAT tests are a useful tool in business at this point in time or any time in the last two years.

          • aj 5.1.1.1.1

            The subject matter is comments by Sir Ian Taylor.

            The guy has no self awareness at all, nor any sense of shame. As Observer pointed out yesterday he has never apologised for dishonestly quoting only part of Adern's speech in December. Grant Roberston wrote an open letter in the Herald in response to his comments, which I feel needs to be reproduced in full because it is relevant to Taylor's attitudes towards the government both before and since December.

            I'm surprised the govt included him in any further discussions on anything to do with the covid response, considering his duplicitous actions in these matters.

            In his column for the Herald, Sir Ian Taylor claimed the Government was going on holiday at a dangerous time in the fight against Covid-19. Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson responds.

            Dear Ian,

            As you know, I have long admired your work. You are a world leader in your field, and have taken a small Dunedin-based company to incredible heights. That is why the emotion I feel on reading your article on the weekend is simply great sadness.

            Let's start at the beginning. You have taken the final words of the Prime Minister's speech during the Parliamentary adjournment debate totally out of context. You write that she is telling politicians and decision-makers that they should take a break. That is not what she said. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not see or hear what she actually said.

            So, let's take a look at the final paragraph of her speech: "But let me finish where I started, and it is by thanking Kiwis. It's been hard. People have been weary, but Kiwis have done what it takes to put us in the best possible position to keep moving, to take on whatever comes next. And I, for one, will never underestimate New Zealanders. So to everyone, I wish you a wonderful break. You bloody deserve it!"

            The Prime Minister is thanking all New Zealanders for the sacrifice and commitment they have made on getting us through 2021. A year that we finish with 90 per cent of our eligible population vaccinated, putting us in the top 20 countries in the world for vaccination rates.

            As you note yourself, this has not been without costs. There are no costless decisions with Covid, but we finish the year with the lowest death rate from Covid in the developed world. We have approximately one death per 100,000 people. This compares to eight in Australia, 52 in Denmark, 118 in Ireland, 220 in the UK, and 245 in the USA. Is that not worth some celebration? Some consideration that perhaps, despite all your criticisms, the Government must have done something right?

            Back to your leading accusation. Parliament has finished sitting for the year, but that does not mean the end of work for the Government. The Prime Minister, myself and other senior ministers will be working through the summer, as will countless officials. While I accept it's fair to criticise some of the decisions that we have made, I will not accept an accusation of lack of hard work.

            Everyone has put energy into fighting Covid – frontline health and border workers, business owners, MPs from all political parties, ministers, officials and everyday New Zealanders. That is exactly the point the PM was making – everyone has worked hard.

            Ian, I know you are frustrated that what you say with respect to Covid does not automatically happen. There are a lot of reasons for that – some legitimate and some you may well be right to be frustrated about. We should continue to work together to find solutions to the problems Covid throws at us.

            What I do know is that at the end of this year New Zealanders can be proud of an economy that has coped better than most. As a Government, we invested in our businesses and our people and as a result, New Zealand's economy has been resilient and robust through this global economic crisis. We have low unemployment, solid economic growth across the year (notwithstanding the last quarter) and prospects for a strong recovery.

            We are as well-positioned as anyone to take on Omicron, in part because of the MIQ that you deride so much as well as the health system that continues to roll out our vaccination programme.

            I have reflected often over the last two years on what matters the most when we are faced with a global pandemic that is killing millions across the globe. And I can just cope with the enormous stress of this situation by knowing that we have done everything we can to keep New Zealanders alive. That is the basic duty of Government, and we have not wavered for one moment from that.

            Take care,
            Grant

            • Patricia Bremner 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Thank you aj. I can clearly see why Ad rates Grant Robertson. I think the discussions between Jacinda and Grant must have great clarity of purpose. We are very fortunate they are good people as well as great leaders.yes

              • Blazer

                Yes Patricia.

                I wouldn't be surprised for the Real Estate industry and the aussie banks to come up with a special award for them both.

                They have done a fantastic job in ramping property prices and enriching the few.

            • Blade 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Yes, and in another interview, that take by Robbo was discussed with Sir Ian. I think with HDPA.

              And why is Sir Ian even involved in this issue?

              ''In his column for the Herald, Sir Ian Taylor claimed the Government was going on holiday at a dangerous time in the fight against Covid-19. Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson responds.''

              They were on roster. That ain't a gummint.

              You can try and spin things anyway you want. The fact of the matter is this government is incompetent as shown by the RATS debacle.

              • joe90

                The fact of the matter is this government is incompetent as shown by the RATS debacle.

                We should follow Australia's lead and allow employers to manage workplace testing?

                That'll work.

                /

                A big issue with rapid antigen tests has been exposed by a worrying spread of cases in a Melbourne aged care facility — as Australia’s health watchdog looks into a number of complaints about the kits from across the nation.

                More than 20 aged care residents tested positive in the Twin Parks Aged Care Centre in Reservoir — where staff have highlighted inaccurate results from the highly sought-after tests.

                The outbreak comes amid an explosion in cases in aged care homes nationally.

                https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/cases-tear-through-melbourne-aged-care-facility-after-dodgy-rats-results/news-story/c9e187b571b9043fafdf910d2b18d978

                • Blade

                  The reliability or otherwise of RAT tests is well known. Several NZ firms have said they had very liable test kits and were prepared to put their reputation on the line.

                  The government wasn't interested.

                  ''We should follow Australia's lead and allow employers to manage workplace testing?''

                  That was the sad thing – we didn't have to follow anyone. New Zealand firms knocked on the governments door.

                  The sooner the dozy middleclass wake up ( see News Hub survey), the sooner we can can show this government the door.

                  • joe90

                    If only the dozy middleclass had your special discernment, things would be as peachy AF.

                  • mpledger

                    How reliable were they?

                    When the number of people in the general population is so low (very roughly 0.016%) then a positive RAT test is most likely wrong.

                    • mpledger

                      Should be …

                      When the number of people with covid in the general population is so low (very roughly 0.016%) then a positive RAT test is most likely wrong.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.2

        The site does have a minor infestation, Sanctuary.

        Eroding confidence through constant nay-saying and presentation and re-presentation of issues that cast the Government in a negative light is the favoured method of discouragement. I don't believe many/any people would do this of their own volition, but hey, they may.

        • tsmithfield 5.1.2.1

          You should welcome our presence here. It frames issues from a different perspective which hopefully challenges our thinking. Otherwise we end up in a self-reinforcing echo-chamber.

          I certainly welcome having my thinking challenged which is why I contribute here.

        • Patricia Bremner 5.1.2.2

          yes Agreed Robert. They are here to undermine and present their particular values and concerns. However they are probably the middle of the road Nats as the others are on kb.

          I did point out they were trying to lead the discourse. It has been good to have our own authors bring up discussion points and topics.

          Each person interprets Government actions through their own window, and we get glimpses of other perspectives, which is interesting, leading to discussion and exploration or rebuttal in equal measures.

          The trolling qualities get tiresome. Inferring failure, slowness cruelty autocracy and attributing an underlying agenda which would mean we are like North Korea is just so much hyperbole it is laughable.

          Real criticism is welcome, political dirty tricks and constant lying themes are not imo.

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.2.2.1

            Nicely observed, Patricia.

            Loved their back-slapping today – "warm glow".

          • Corey Humm 5.1.2.2.2

            Im a lefty angry about the rampant classism in this country perpetuated by a party that dolls itself up in faux Michael Joseph Savage and Norman Kirk attire to shit on the bottom. This govt made the rich billions richer while making the poor billions poorer.

            Lbours traditional role is coming in and fixing capitalism, for decades now it just perpetuates the status quo and tinkers.

            We're a tale of two cities in NZ.

            Education is now for the rich, case in point my old high school , Aranui high that both national and labour have turned into a Frankenstein neoliberal experiment with 100 people classrooms, no structure and 27% ncea success rate. All the poor schools in damaged areas got closed down and merged into one drop in center while a rich areas public school with a few dozen students got rebuilt.

            Housing is for the rich, motels and shacks for the poor. Rents skyrocket, new builds get rented out for unaffordable rates or sit empty and the govt shrugs while refusing to tax wealth, capital gains or rent income because they hate their own voters.

            Welfare for the poor , employment insurance for the rich justified by the minister of finance saying welfare standdowns are too long and benefits too low, well if only he was in a govt with a majority to fix it

            But na entrench a two tier system so civil servants and welathy pricks don't have to deal with winz, and then labours allies in blue can privatize welfare and just have insurance.

            Call me a right wing concern troll, I'm a working class lefty who actually believes a labour govt should be enriching the many not pumping tens of billions of dollars into making rich people richer and the poor poor.

            I'm a lefty I believe in free speech, a decent standard of living for all and that housing is a human right.

            Labour is sadly a center right party that has no interest in fixing capitalism.

            If this were a national govt presiding over this level of hardship, housing inequality the left would be out on the streets.

            Poverty is about as bad now as it was when Ruth Richardson was around, but all I hear is statistics about how everything is wonderful and this govt is the greatest labour govt of all time.

            I think it's an insult to even call this a labour govt.

            It pisses on its own people.

            They act like because they grew up in the 80s and 90s that they know what it's like as if things aren't just as bad

            Politicians should get $50 k a year and have to do their own groceries. He'll give em minimum wage.

            They have no idea what it's like and I don't believe they even care, they just want the peasents to shut their mouths so they can tell the upper middle class how great everything is

    • observer 5.2

      Well, you've rather thrown Taylor under the bus there.

      Yesterday the party line was "Ian Taylor only wants to help, in good faith, he's totally not political, why not embrace him?"

      But now it's "the government are vengeful bastards". A partisan attack is possibly not the best way to demonstrate that good faith.

      Mask, slipped.

      • Blade 5.2.1

        All grist for debate.

      • Sabine 5.2.2

        How about both comments are true?

        The dude wanted to 'help' government because that would help him and others, and the government was 'helped' by businesses, requesitioning their orders, and is now vengeful that that has come to light and makes the government look like some people who don't play nice at best, forgot to order at worst. And please remember it took them till July 2021 to start with the Jabbery of NZ because that too they left until Jan 2021 to order. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/covid-19-response-minister-chris-hipkins-defends-ordering-first-batch-of-pfizer-vaccines-on-january-29.html

        Official testing will either be underwhelmend – because people will not get tested due to the isolation requests, or overwhelmed because too many people will get tested at once and it will take again days for tests to come back. My bet would be on 'underwhelmed'.
        Take your pick.

        And if all you have is to call people right wingers, you will find yourself again in the position of David Cunliffe who inspired 27.48% of the population to vote for them, or worse Andrew Little who could not even inspire hard died in the wool Laborites to vote for him at all, and that at a time where Labour will have no Jacinda Ardern – and looking at the current crew, actually have no Talent at all to fall back on too. So keep that in mind.

        People still have the right to not like this government, not like the PM, not like what they are doing, and they still have the right to voice that. And there are many out there who are over that grandstanding that is based on very little, but mainly on NZ very compliant public. And once your government looses public support all bets are off.

        • Patricia Bremner 5.2.2.1

          Well Sabine you use hyperbole regularly but that piece of writing is quite reasonable.

          However, many of us think Taylor is a fair weather friend who has an over developed sense of entitlement. We are also entitled to an opinion.

          You often make good points on topics but lose us with the bitterness that comes through about the Government.

          Ad pointed out what has been happening but it just washed over some here as "to little" and "not what I think is important" imo.

    • joe90 5.3

      Dude with more money than dog and [self] appointed spokesman for the top end of town uses a national platform to have a wee blub about how the top end of town has been cowed into silence.

      Do fuck off.

  6. Red Blooded One 6

    yes

  7. Robert Guyton 7

    "‘So many children have died, save our children’,”"

    Anti-vaxxer holds sign at protest outside of primary school.

    "Anti-vaxxers target primary schools with 'extreme' messages"

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127695199/antivaxxers-target-primary-schools-with-extreme-messages

    • Sabine 7.1

      The Green Party wants Teachers to teach children in school that you can change your biological sex via a radical double masectomy and a vagina ectomy and a hysterectomy for girls and for boys it be via a breast implants, and an inverted penis to create a neo vagina. Plus 'reversible' puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones. And if it don't work, well doh!

      Seriously, maybe people alltogether have lost the plot on what is science and what is just frankenstein culture?

      • Blazer 7.1.1

        Be very interested to hear what Weka…has to say about that!

        • weka 7.1.1.1

          why?

          • Blazer 7.1.1.1.1

            Because you always seem to be a font of knowledge about the GP…and the topic is quite controversial.Thats…why!

            • weka 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Sabine is overegging that pudding. I'm not aware that the GP has in their education policy the claims that Sabine is making.

              They are however committed to gender identity ideology, and I don't support them in that.

      • weka 7.1.2

        What's the source for that claim about the Green Party Sabine?

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.3

        Is that your considered response to anti-vaxx scaremongery of primary school children, Sabine, "The Green Party wants…"?

        • Sabine 7.1.3.1

          Well Robert,

          I don't consider the Anti Mandaters that harmful, considering that the country is 90+% vaccinated. I don't even consider them having an impact.

          The kids however will be sterilised, castrated, dependend on wrong sex hormones for the rest of their lifes, will maybe wake up one day to see that they went the wrong path (affirmation only) and yes, that will be on the count of the Green Party in particular the Gender Fairy Mx KereKere – she who surely believes that trans-lesbians have penises. 🙂

          And yes, the Green Party wants this. So badly they made a mockery out of the submission process, and that is public record, there are plenty of youtube videos of them out there, you can watch it if you have the guts to do so. Own it, its your Party.

          Btw, how was the debate about these things within the green Party and are you looking forward to your first Co – Leader Male and Co -Leader 'Self ID' women' also a man? Cause I seriously can't wait for that glorious day. Who do you think will be that Self ID'd women? And did you know that in the German Green Party two Men are now on the 'women list'? And do you really believe that this can not happen here? Heck i, could for laughs, run for the male co-leadership of the Green Party simply by declaring myself a Man. Would that not be a hoot?

          But then, some science is government approved, and other science is full of bigotry – that would be biology and the sexing of human beings.

          • Robert Guyton 7.1.3.1.1

            You don't consider the effects of an adult with a placard, outside of a primary school, claiming "so many children have died…” to be "that harmful"?

            I see.

            • Sabine 7.1.3.1.1.1

              Then i expect you to also write a letter to your Green party asking for the right of Parents to not have their child 'affirmed ' only as trans, and you will also do your utmost to protect any trained medical staff that might think that a child is not trans and should not be affirmed – which as per the legislation that the greens are so proud of is no longer possible – affirmation only in as young a kid as possible, because that too is traumatising to young people when they wake up and want have children and realise that they don't have their reproductive sexual organs anymore.
              Get a grip Robert, these dudes with the Signs are no more offensive then any other dudes with Signs.

              • Robert Guyton

                I'm sensing you have nothing at all meaningful to say about the "so many children have died.." placard, Sabine.

                Why didn't you just say so?

            • Anker 7.1.3.1.1.2

              Hi Robert, I know you asked Sabine, but I would like to reply too.

              I care about kids too. I think having those placcards outside the school will invoke fear in children at a time when we need a very straighforward calm approach. It is very unfortunate that these protestors are doing this and they should be asked to stop.

              But far more harmful is the information being given to very young children that they might be born in the wrong body and that they can identify as the opposite sex, i.e. go from being a girl to a boy and visa versa. And that you can socially transition and then medically transition so you sex lines up with your gender identity. Children who are too young to consent start medically transitioning and their bodies undergo irreversable changes. We are talking kids as young as 16 years having double masectomies and then as young as 18 years having hysterectomies. The drugs alone can cause fertility issues and if you watch any of the detransitioners clips (there are now 25,000 of these kids on reddit) you will see the results of this trajectory.

              This is an absolute scandal and I fully expect that at some point there will be a Royal Commission of Enquiry into why this was allowed to happen. IMO it is as scandelous as what happened to kids in state care at Lake Alice. Personally I wouldn't be able to live with myself, knowing what is happening and not speaking up, even though it isn't easy to do.

              • Molly

                Well, let's also have a look at what is being taught to those children inside their classrooms, for children aged 5 – 13 courtesy of TKI – as shown below:

                In science, ākonga can:

                • consider how biological sex has been constructed and measured over time and what this means in relation to people who have variations in sex characteristics

                • consider variations in puberty, including the role of hormone blockers

                • explore the role of genetics in constructing debates about gender and sexuality

                • challenge gender stereotypes about careers in science • identify famous male and female scientists and their contributions

                • explore what “male” and “female” mean in relation to various living things, for example, plants, sea creatures, and fungi.

                Biological sex is no longer an observable fact, it has been constructed and measured over time. Who knows what this means in relation to people who have variations in sex characteristics, because in this science curriculum you have left reality behind, and I doubt these people are limited to those with DSD". There is a definite lack of guidance on the sexed bodies that children inhabit, but an possible inclusion – maybe not – of a medical condition that affects perhaps 0.02% – 1.8% of the population.

                "…consider variations in puberty, including the role of hormone blockers".

                Before even experiencing the often disconcerting, and sometimes traumatic experience of puberty, and the physical and social changes that process entails, children are introduced to the idea of avoiding that process with medical interventions. Medical intervention provided off-label, and without evidence of long-term safety.

                "…explore the role of genetics in constructing debates about gender and sexuality."

                This is an interesting one. Anyone here know what the role of genetics has in constructing debates about gender and sexuality?

                "explore what “male” and “female” mean in relation to various living things, for example, plants, sea creatures, and fungi."

                Now, only the truly informed will understand why this is here. During attempt at discussion, the reality of biological sex may be ignored, challenged, discredited and then reaffirmed to claim sex as a spectrum because – look at the clownfish, fungus, seaweed etc.

                In a guidance about human sexuality for children, the concepts of biological sex for humans is dissolved into social ideas of gender, and the reproductive capacities of other species.

              • Robert Guyton

                Anker – I know you are passionate about that issue, but like Sabine, you have hijacked my comment and bent it to suit your agenda – that's okay, only it doesn't speak to my concern at all – just saying.

                • Anker

                  Hi Robert, find for you to let me know this. But I did comment on your concern about protestors with some outrageous placcards outside schools.

                  I think it will terrify kids. And I think they should be asked to take the signs down. I think doing this is really low by the protesters. I think if the protesters don't take their signs down, then teachers would need to have a way that is best to deal with it. Probably by not making a big deal and saying you don't need to be scared of other peoples words. sometimes some adults say dumb things. We can trust our Drs and the big people to make good decisions.

                  Ok I didn't say all of this, but I did say some.

            • Ross 7.1.3.1.1.3

              You don't consider the effects of an adult with a placard, outside of a primary school, claiming "so many children have died…” to be "that harmful"?

              I see you are into double standards, Robert. I would have thought the mental health of children was quite important. One placard is likely to have little or no effect. Lockdowns on the other hand…

              https://www.smh.com.au/national/hidden-costs-lockdown-toll-on-mental-health-put-at-13-billion-20220123-p59qhr.html

              https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jpc.15736

      • Molly 7.1.4

        Labour Party as well:

        These read benignly, but the resources linked to from TKI come from one ideological stance – ie. gender: girls/feminine, boys/masculine.

        Sex education for children – Years 1-8 is predominantly about gender recognition and sexuality types. There is very brief mention of actual sexed bodies, the differences between and the changes that will take place. What there is, is related back to gender identities:

        In science, ākonga can:

        • consider how biological sex has been constructed and measured over time and what this means in relation to people who have variations in sex characteristics

        • consider variations in puberty, including the role of hormone blockers

        • explore the role of genetics in constructing debates about gender and sexuality

        • challenge gender stereotypes about careers in science • identify famous male and female scientists and their contributions

        • explore what “male” and “female” mean in relation to various living things, for example, plants, sea creatures, and fungi.

        For me, there are areas of concern in being unable to even teach the biological part of sex education without parsing it through the lens of gender ideology. You can view this guidance for Years 1-8, and Years 9-13 on the TKI website.

        Those looking for curriculum resources are directed to third party providers, such as Inside Out, Rainbow Youth and Gender Minorities. Links are numerous to other organisations within NZ, and from overseas. This topic would require a considered amount of time to research, and be able to discuss as teachers are able to choose curriculum from a wide range of sources, so what is presented at one school may not be the same as at another. What is apparent from the guidelines is that the notion of a gendered identity is taught as a given, and the impact of sexed bodies is sidelined.

        Create more inclusive school and work environments
        We will ensure schools apply guidance to create safe and inclusive school environments for all students, work with schools on providing gender neutral bathrooms and update New Zealand’s workplace gender and sexual diversity standards.

        Sounds good, but the devil will be in the details. And what is gender or sexual diversity? And will this retain single-sex spaces?

        "BANNING HARMFUL PRACTICES AND UPHOLDING DIGNITY

        We’re working to keep our Rainbow communities safe and supported. We’ve committed to banning harmful conversion practices by early next year. "

        To the dismay of Stonewall in the UK, the ECHR committee has issued a statement (link to .docx) regarding the proposed legislation for banning conversion therapy:

        Before addressing the specific consultation questions, we have some general comments about the Government’s proposals and the consultation approach. We are supportive of measures to end harmful conversion therapy practices, but the likely significant and wide-ranging implications of the Government’s proposals for a legislative ban for criminal and civil justice, clinicians and therapists, families and religious organisations require careful and detailed consideration. The consultation document contains no clear definition of what will amount to “conversion therapy” caught by its proposals, nor of the meaning of “transgender” – a term which has no clear legal meaning, is potentially wider than the concept of gender reassignment in current UK law, and is understood by different people in different ways.

        The full document goes into much more detail, but this paragraph is indicative of the concerns people had with the Ban Conversion therapy legislation here in NZ.

        SUPPORTING TRANSITION

        We’re helping trans people to access the care they need. To help reduce wait times for gender affirming surgery, we lifted the cap on the number of publicly funded surgeries and increased funding for the service, supporting the mental health of our trans whānau.

        Once again, details are necessary. If coming from the same perspective regarding any therapy as conversion therapy above, this additional fast tracking of medical transitions may not be the best outcome for many of our transgender youth.

        Who are already being medicalised in their teens, and may find it difficult to get support to detransition.

        • Anker 7.1.4.1

          Thanks for putting up Sashas story again Molly.

          I would urge everyone on this website to watch even five minutes of this tape. She is taking about her experience of going to a therapist when she is 13 saying she might be bi-sexual and the therapist asking her a very leading question "do you think you might be born in the wrong body". At the time Sasha thought she wasn't bt it started a train of thought questioning whether she might be. Now at 19 years old she has had body altering drugs and a double masectomy and she now knows she wasn't "born in the wrong body" (no one is we are all born in the bodies we get) and is deeply regretful and angry about this

          • Puckish Rogue 7.1.4.1.1

            Yeah its a bit mental really.

            Consent to having sex – No (and rightly so)

            legally get a tattoo – No

            Consent to transitioning including, but not limited to, drugs and surgery – Well thats ok then

            • Molly 7.1.4.1.1.1

              Being given a double mastectomy at such a young age is astonishing to me.

              Along with many other women who have had a mastectomy because of breast cancer, I have to try and persuade the health system to remove the other one – which I will be doing this year. Surgeons prefer to leave women lop-sided, rather than remove an "otherwise healthy breast".

              Removal of two healthy breasts during a known period of self-discovery, growth and exploration of personal expression however, is a different matter.

              Hormone suppressing drugs are no walk in the park either. I wonder if any of those promoting puberty blockers have any experience of taking these medications. I sometimes think the women on the cancer support groups will be a great resource for people considering medical transitioning drugs and surgeries. They have no particular stance, they are just relating the impacts of medical and surgical interventions. Interventions also offered to transitioning teenagers.

              • Puckish Rogue

                I'm getting to the point where if someone offered me the choice of continuing to live in this current reality or live in a loop of 1981 – 2000 I'd seriously consider living 1981 – 2000

                Even though it contains my teenage years (which were not good years), even though I drank more than I should have, even though I had less money, even before I met my wife to be

                • Molly

                  I remember a time when we disagreed more often than not, PR. And now…?

                  We do indeed find ourselves in a Brave New World. wink

                  • Anker

                    I agree Molly. Use to disagree with PR a lot. More often than not I agree with him and find him the voice of sanity in the current time we live in.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Its an interesting idea.

                      Have I moved left, have some of you moved right, has the left moved right, has the right moved left, has the left gone massively to the left, has the right gone massively to the right

                      Has watching more Fox News, The Daily Wire and Youtube content improved my viewpoint rather than make it worse

                      I find myself saying more and more often how things just don't make sense, how I don't understand whats going on in business, culture, politics

                      The other thing I've always thought though is that most posters on here probably have more things in common with each other, the values and expectations, than things we don't.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Lost, you are, from us…

                      🙂

        • Molly 7.1.4.2

          Apologies, correcting the link to TKI's Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum guide referenced above.

          The quote comes from the Years 1 – 8 guide that needs to be downloaded as a document to be read, Page 30. Learning intentions for science.

          • weka 7.1.4.2.1

            Ok, but that's not even the right link. The right link is this

            https://health.tki.org.nz/content/download/2956/26630/version/3/file/RSE+Guide+y1-8.pdf

            It's helpful to link to the source page that you did, but if you are going to quote, please link to the actual document, every time. Don't embed the link in a phrase, post it in the plain and then people can see if it's a webpage or PDF or other download.

            • weka 7.1.4.2.1.1

              anyway, important link, I didn't realise how bad it was already in NZ. Will try and find some time this week to read that, thanks.

              • Molly

                There's also some really good direction and guidance in the document too. It's not all dark and dreary, just a couple of places where it struck me as ideological, which is a concern.

            • Molly 7.1.4.2.1.2

              I don't know if it's my browser, but everytime I tried to link to that, I instead got a link to the local file on my computer where it downloaded.

              That's why I provided the link to the page and the title.

              Once again, I'm sorry for causing you extra work. It was sheer incompetence.

              • weka

                Sorry, it was late and lots of time on my phone yesterday making things more difficult. Yes, a link to the containing page with a description of which link to click on is also good. Thanks.

    • weka 7.2

      Complaints can also be made to the Advertising Standards Authority.

      Interesting.

      Good to see the various authorities saying that such protest is legal. We really need to get better at non-authoritarian responses. This is a very difficult situation, because the gap between protestors and the rest of society is very large now. Ridicule is absolutely the wrong approach as it just entrenches views. And the various movements are getting better organised and will learn better protest and political skills over time. They're still doing a lot of stupid shit, but this is a new protest landscape and the left ignores it at its peril.

      • Robert Guyton 7.2.1

        What do you suggest, weka?

        Disciplining the non-protesters will be as hopeless a task as disciplining the protesters – the antivaxx/mandate/Jacinda/1080/flouride/Biden/utetax/3Waters, sin throng can't control their own: it's a big ask of the vast majority to respond in a unified, measured manner (though I'd suggest that we are 🙂

        • Sabine 7.2.1.1

          It is a legal protest, and unless they do anything illegal nothing should be done.

          • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.1.1

            You mean, "nothing illegal" should be done, surely?

            • Sabine 7.2.1.1.1.1

              Unless they do something illegal, the police should spend its time doing nothing, maybe eat a donut or several. Or maybe go after some meth cookers, or weed growers, or dairy robbers, or wife bashers, or kiddies abusers.

              You know, go after people that actually do something illegal, rather then just do something that YOU personally don't approve of.

              • Puckish Rogue

                100% agreed

              • arkie

                You know, go after people that actually do something illegal, rather then(sic) just do something that YOU personally don't approve of.

                Like maybe not going after trans children and their supportive parents?

                • Molly

                  "Like maybe not going after trans children and their supportive parents?"

                  When have the police done that?

                  • arkie

                    I’m not talking about the police, I’m talking about things one may or may not personally approve of, that aren’t against the law.

                    • Molly

                      If you are making a comment about Sabine, make it clear.

                      There is enough obfuscation around the issue of gender ideology and its many impacts as it is. There will then be opportunity to respond directly and maybe start making some headway into how we support people into their best lives and self-expression, while not impacting on the rights of others, and the health and wellbeing of themselves.

                    • arkie

                      We are all unavoidably aware of the opinions of some around here regarding 'gender ideology'. IMHO it doesn't warrant further discussion, nor do I want to engage in it, but yet the subject is regularly shoehorned into unrelated comments and the language being used is unnecessarily hyperbolic to say the least.

                    • Molly

                      @arkie.

                      We are all unavoidably aware of the opinions of some around here regarding 'gender ideology'. IMHO it doesn't warrant further discussion, nor do I want to engage in it, but yet the subject is regularly shoehorned into unrelated comments and the language being used is unnecessarily hyperbolic to say the least.

                      What I am aware of is the various types of #NoDebate, repeatedly and consistently trotted out whenever someone tries to bring up the impact of unquestioned gender ideology.

                      And the impact is considerable, not just on the rights of women and children, but the material being taught in schools, the loss of single sex spaces, the inability to use concise language to discuss the topic, the deliberate conflation of existing terms and understandings to avoid public discussion, the long-term harm of the medical interventions for children and young people, impact on women's sports, scholarships and internships, the reintroduction of harmful gender stereotypes, the creation of a cohort of people who are groomed with advice that includes suicidal ideation and a hypervigilance for people or situations that make them 'unsafe', the possible infiltration of harmful sex positivity and acceptance of paraphilias under the umbrella of sexual diversity, the harassment and persecution of those who don't wholeheartedly agree – or at least publicly agree.

                      If you aren't aware of the pervasive nature of 'gender ideology' and it's impact within our society, you are not looking.

                      And, I will make it clear, this is not talking about the ability of people for self-expression or presentation in any form or manner.

                    • Anker

                      Question for your comment below Arkie.

                      Who specifically is going after trans kids and their supportive parents? What makes you think that is the case?

                    • arkie

                      All of that is your opinion. I do not share it.

                      @ Anker If you can’t see it I won’t point it out. It would only inflame this interminable ‘debate’.

                    • Molly

                      @arkie.

                      "If you can’t see it I won’t point it out. It would only inflame this interminable ‘debate’."

                      Alternatively, it may prove difficult because most attempted 'discussion' on here, does not do that.

                    • Anker

                      Arkie, you made the assertion that someone (unspecified) is going after trans kids and their parents. Whatever you think the outcome of you backing up the claim with evidence, I think it would be a good idea for you to do so.

                      You ofcourse are entitled not to participate in this issue on this site. But if you make a claim like the one you did "going after trans kids and their supportive parents" and then not back it up, it could look like you don't have anything to back it up with.

              • Robert Guyton

                The police should busy themselves elsewhere when an angry mob defends on the Beehive?

                Hmmm…

                Not a fan of pro-active policing then, Sabine?

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Hi Robert, knowing much you like to point out other peoples grammatical and spelling errors, in an effort to disparage their entire post, did you really mean to type defends or did you actually mean to type descends

                  • Jimmy

                    Touché!

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Rant warning, not specifically targeting any individual

                      It really is one of my, major, pet peeves.

                      Someone takes the time to post something and someone else points out spelling or grammatical errors in a clear effort to demean the post and make the poster look dumb

                      Its childish, in my opinion its a form of low-grade bullying and, quite frankly, its fucking pathetic.

                      You don't want to answer the post, fine, don't answer it but to point out someone said 'loose' instead of 'lose' or they didn't put a comma in just makes you look like you don't have an answer and are just trying to avoid the question.

                      Fuck you.

                      Maybe English is their second language, maybe they're typing on a phone, maybe while they're typing out a reply they have half a dozen things going on at the same.

                      Or maybe they weren't fortunate enough to have a decent educational experience but they come on here and just want to share what they think

                      Maybe they're dyslexic and its even harder for them to type but they type away and then some smug, arrogant tosspot points out an error in their post

                      Doesn't change the point they're making, doesn't make their point any less relevant than anyone elses yet someone has to take a couple of minutes out of their day just to try to make them feel worthless

                      Well done

                      Ok rant over

                      (I'm also aware I've probably done this in the past but I am trying to improve myself so this rant is as much towards me as it is to everyone else)

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Awesome, King-hit, Puckish Rogue and Jimmy! Boy, am I feeling foolish!

                      You've caught me on the hop, made a real duffer of me!

                      "Defends", where, "descends" is required!

                      What a dope!

                      Thanks SO much for caring!

                      Wow! you guys are like, my heroes (adoration emoji!)

                  • swordfish

                    .

                    some smug, arrogant tosspot

                    That's pretty much the affluent Woke in a nutshell. Attempting to transform the Left into an elitist little Vanity ProjectYear Zero Cultural Nihilists … with distinct anti-working class & anti-democratic tendencies.

                    In key respects, the antithesis of the traditional Left.

                    The genuinely privileged Woke aren't always the brightest sparks in the toolshed … but they've been told at boarding-school they're naturally destined to become the leaders in society … & having been horrendously over-indulged as tubby little children, find themselves nurturing a truly massive sense of self-entitlement [with all the glaring double-standards that that entails].

                    Recent research in Psychology suggests the core Authoritarian Woke (like the Alt-Right) disproportionately possess the Dark Triad personality traits … namely: (1. Machiavellianism, 2. Narcissism [esp very high Entitlement], 3. Psychopathy).

                    They're essentially Walking-Talking Personality Disorders (and I think we've all experienced these Titania McGrath types online & within the NZ Blogosphere).

                    I've seen 3 different pieces of research confirming this over recent years … here's one:

                    The Dark Triad traits predict authoritarian political correctness and alt-right attitudes – ScienceDirect

                    • Anker

                      Swordfish thanks so much for posting this. I look forward to reading it ie. The Dark triad…………

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Hey Swordfish I've always liked your posts on the polls and I hope everything is going well with you and if you're ever in Christchurch and you want to see some sights (and it ties in with my schedule) let me know and we'll set something up

                      Cheers

                    • Hetzer

                      " some smug arrogant tosspot " , perfect description. 🙂

                  • swordfish

                    Cheers, PR … I appreciate the offer.

                • Anker

                  Molly that is a brilliant summary of the issues around gender ideology.

                  Thank you so much.

        • weka 7.2.1.2

          Disciplining the non-protesters will be as hopeless a task as disciplining the protesters – the antivaxx/mandate/Jacinda/1080/flouride/Biden/utetax/3Waters, sin throng can't control their own: it's a big ask of the vast majority to respond in a unified, measured manner (though I'd suggest that we are

          I don't think we are. And I didn't even hint at disciplining. Mostly I make arguments for why something is or isn't useful, because I believe in the value of debate, but also the value of pushback.

          Seems to me atm that the main response from liberals and progressives towards the anti-crowds is anger and ridicule. I've said why I think this will fail as a strategy. Not that it's a conscious strategy so much as people who are understandably scared going off on one at something they have little control over.

          My suggestion is to seek more nuance. Instead of talking about this hivemind of prostestors, start breaking it down. The people in my community who are anti-vax and afraid of government overreach are still good people in my community. They're also not of low IQ. I think shaming, ostracisation, and ridicule will radicalise them further.

          The left is on a high because of the respective positions of Labour and National, but in five years that situation might be reversed and we then have a potent mix of people radicalised away from the left and voting Act or National because they hate the left so much. We never seem to learn. We are building the NZ version of the deplorables as we speak. It makes a mockery of any kindness speechmaking, and more and more people will be less inclined to believe the next round.

          The mandates are a necessarily evil currently, but there's no good reason we couldn't be looking after more people within that, and we're not. Knock, knock, that's the climate/eco crisis at the door reminding us of the long emergency.

          • weka 7.2.1.2.1

            I also think it’s a priority to understand why a not small number of people now believe that children have been killed by the vaccine.

            • Molly 7.2.1.2.1.1

              Not a researched study, but my own personal opinion FWIW.

              If your own authority is shown to be non-transparent in facts, or equivocates in such a way they can be shown up, sometimes trust is transferred to those who have pointed out the discrepancies – whether it should be or not.

              Once those 'actors' have the transferred trust, they are then given the authority and listened to on other aspects – whether they should be or not.

              I'm not suggesting this is a good thing. Just a possible explanation for the small percentage of people who seem to be struggling with the impacts of Covid and the vast amount of information coming from all sides.

              In terms of government response, the inability to acknowledge failure, or to reassess the use of vaccine passports even when we have such a high rate of compliance – feeds the beast.

              • weka

                If your own authority is shown to be non-transparent in facts, or equivocates in such a way they can be shown up, sometimes trust is transferred to those who have pointed out the discrepancies – whether it should be or not.

                Yes! And if concern about government overreach is stronger than concern about the pandemic, this cements this further.

                Once those 'actors' have the transferred trust, they are then given the authority and listened to on other aspects – whether they should be or not.

                I have wondered about this with youtuber Dr Campbell. He started out trustworthy, but during the pandemic went off piste intellectually and in terms of evidence, but people still find him reassuring.

                My own position is that I don't trust anyone, lol. Everything is up for critique, including my own views. By which I mean, there is a baseline around evidence that makes test most things I read/see/hear or think.

                Trust isn't transitive is a useful essay

                https://peternbiddle.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/trust-isnt-transitive-or-someone-fired-a-gun-in-an-airplane-cockpit-and-it-was-probably-the-pilot/

                Issues of trust and lack of trust seem really pertinent, thanks.

                • Molly

                  To be honest, and given the amount of public relations experts they have on hand, this government – if they wished – could look at what it could do to starve the beast.

                  Instead, they seem willing to allow the divide to continue and widen, as long as the majority showing scorn and ridiculing the other – and there are many – are on their side.

                  • weka

                    Starve the beast?

                    • weka

                      I see a lot of people jumping on the Groundswell, Freedom etc bandwagon. Some of their concerns are quite legitimate, and they feel poorly met by the political classes. Some are grifters and entitled arses, which makes the dynamics more complex, but I think Labour engaging PR to make the problem go away will feed the beast.

                    • Molly

                      Relates to my earlier comment:

                      In terms of government response, the inability to acknowledge failure, or to reassess the use of vaccine passports even when we have such a high rate of compliance – feeds the beast.

                    • Molly

                      @weka.

                      They already have public relations people. Most likely the focus is on getting as many people to approve of the government at any one time. That is a different focus to addressing the schisms forming in society.

                      I'm cynically suggesting this schism, and the increasingly disgruntled and abused people on the other side of it, for whatever reason, are not considered worth addressing in any way.

                      The crowds engaged in ridicule and contempt (on both sides) are being kept busy, and government continues on without the need to get their hands dirty.

                    • weka

                      well yes, lol. I don't think Labour doing more PR will improve that situation. We need solutions to the actual problems, not Labour's PR problem 😉

            • Nic the NZer 7.2.1.2.1.2

              Its an aspect of group psychology. If you don't accept that statement as valid then your not part of the group. Valid can have a number of meanings of course, from questioning if its possible that… to actually believing in a cover up of childrens deaths.

              Social media is quite good at instigating this as its basically about grouping people with similar beliefs, interests and ideas.

            • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.2.1.3

              I do too, weka. reportedly (as reported by antivaxxer placard-makers) there have been a horrifying number of deaths; children, jabbed to death, before our very eyes (but hidden from our very eyes, by you-know-who!!)

          • Anker 7.2.1.2.2

            100% Weka.

            I am very pro vacinne, boostered and all that. There will always be a small minority of people who are against medical interventions on offer. They don't ike "drugs".

            I am surprized the vacinne rates are. so high. Its great.

            This small minority have a right to protest. Unless they are doing anything illegal they should be allowed to protest. Its funny hearing people talk about protesters holding up traffice etc and yet I well remember protests like the against the TTPA that did this very thing.

            The guy with the sign is a problem, but teachers need to find the best way forward for their students on this.

            • Shanreagh 7.2.1.2.2.1

              I have gone from trying to face up and talk to people about their views that has been my lifetime modus operandi to ignoring them.

              Why?

              Many of the ones I have spoken to have arguments full of what I call 'woo woo'. The slogans and flags on the vehicles and the over passes over the Motorway are very anti vax and anti mandate.

              Surely if you have a protest movement you are seeking to engage others with facts and consequences or are showing support for others who have marshalled facts and alternative views.

              So my modus operandi now is to ignore them.

              I am hopeful that as time goes on they will find that it may have been better to have been vaccinated and that being taught, or nursed by people who don't believe in woo woo is a precious gift.

              My view is that I do not 'give' to racists. I don't 'give' to this group.

              I'd be sad if they caught Covid and sadder still if they died of something preventable

              I know by ignoring them I am not reaching out. I'm feeling that until their arguments are coherent, and coherence does not seem to be valued by them, I find I have no feelings let alone anything logical or coherent thoughts to respond.

              I feel sorry for them. Seeing all the wonky. illogical, mispelt placards and the strange flags just about made me cry yesterday as I travelled the length of the convoy. How have we bred this?

              Instead I satisfied myself with the thumbs down symbol (right hand out the window) whenever I was close enough and it was safe enough.

              I will always support the right to legal protest and admire those who do it well and always read the views expressed.

              • Molly

                "Surely if you have a protest movement you are seeking to engage others with facts and consequences or are showing support for others who have marshalled facts and alternative views."

                This may be one perspective, but it is not mine when I attend protests.

                I'm more of a 'standing to be counted' person, ie. being present to say I do not agree, even while knowing it is unlikely the government will change their actions. (I'm thinking of attending climate change or TPPA protests in recent years.)

                One thing that is always present, regardless of the cause of the protest, is the presence of those utilising the protest energy for their own personal schtick.

                The other thing I became aware of it the difference in mood and structure when the old leftie protestors like Minto were in charge, as opposed to those organised by younger people, mostly through social media. The former were more on point, and had focus. The latter often had a range of diverse messaging, and more feel-good focus and messaging, rather than outlining facts and demands for change.

                It occurs to me that many in the current protests also don't have that exposure to community organisation and protests. They are operating from individual outrage, not necessarily wider community concerns, so they are using dynamics that work for them in the rest of their life, being loud, being dogmatic etc.

                Media reporting of past peaceful protesters as ‘rabble-rousers’, disruptive and loud might also have fed some inexperienced protestors into thinking “This is how you do it”.

                • Shanreagh

                  Of course standing with and alongside is also why many protest. Standing in solidarity is powerful. To stand in solidarity means those standing can understand/understood the issues.

                  My point is to get those who might well stand in solidarity to be counted the issues need to be known.

                  I think since 1981 there has been a lessening of the rabble rouser idea.

                  I agree with this. And your post as a whole.

                  It occurs to me that many in the current protests also don't have that exposure to community organisation and protests. They are operating from individual outrage, not necessarily wider community concerns, so they are using dynamics that work for them in the rest of their life, being loud, being dogmatic etc.

              • Robert Guyton

                Coherent!

                Good luck!

      • lprent 7.2.2

        .. and the left ignores it at its peril.

        Personally I haven't seen anything worth even responding to amongst the statements and placards carried by this lot of protesters. I couldn't give a pigs arse about their feelings. I'm only really interested if they have any evidence.

        So far the only evidence they have shown is that they're pretty crap at driving and parking.

        But I also suspect that the majority of the people in the protests appear to be in that large percentage of the population who either don’t vote or vote for parties that can’t get over the threshold. I call them protest voters and they seem to persistently be be about 5-7% of the electorate. Certainly that is the impression that they seem to be trying to shed like a viral load.

        I don’t think that the ‘left’ (a fractious group itself) should be that worried. My bet is that this will wind up like the Judea Resistance groups in a Monty Python movie.

        • weka 7.2.2.1

          might be Pythonesque in the end, or might end up radicalising towards violence. Really don't want to end up with the NZ version of Trump's America. If that is a potential, now is the time to sort it out, by the time they get big enough to be affecting politics it will be too late.

          The thing that worries me is we've not seen this before, it's a really weird set of dynamics and a wide range of people and issues: anti-vaxxers, young/poor Māori, young mums concerned about new kid vaccines, the alt health sector, counter culture new agers, anti-govt a la the US, counter culture sovereignty, farmers and other rural people (think how small town people are feeling after 40 years of neoliberalism), anti-1080, anti-mandate, anti-covid response, shit stirrers, grifters, Tamaki et al, libertarians from both the left and the right. I mean, that is a really weird churn, and that’s not even a comprehensive list.

          That mixed with people that feeling marginalised and disenfranchised, mixed with people on high horses, mixed with high radicalisation, mixed with ongoing background stress (pandemic, climate), I think it's dangerous. Not this week, probably not this year. In five years it might have disappeared, or it might be entrenched.

        • Shanreagh 7.2.2.2

          Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara the commentator below always has a different take in things…..been looking at him off and on for a wee while.

    • aom 7.3

      Breaking news: 'Vultures prey on the weakest.'

      People must be really perverted and sick if they have to go after our children – the same ilk as child abusers but never likely to have to deal with the consequences of their arrogance and self-entitlement. One has to wonder how long it would take for the sick bastards to hold others to account if their child was emotionally compromised by the same sort of fuckwittery,

    • Peter 7.4

      The idiots should not be outside primary schools. They should be inside the schools, inside classrooms. With Year One teachers in front of them saying, "Right, the didn't work, let's go right back to the beginning and start again."

    • McFlock 7.5

      My first thought was some terrified 7yo asking mum if it's true they'll be killed by the vaccine.

      Then I realised mum would probably pre-empt it with "those people are silly. Don't be like them".

  8. Just Saying 8

    Matt Taibbi talking to Russell Brand about journalism and its contempt for everyday people. People journalists today have absolutely nothing to do with as they suck up to those with status and power. How Trump manipulated this contemptuous attitude. About the class divide playing out through so-called leftists wanting to show how clever they are by denigrating the ''dumb peasants''*** note these are my words, a NZ translation.

  9. Adrian 9

    Rapid Antigen tests are redundant and even the best of them are not fit for purpose. Omicron is infectious from the first 24 hours and they cannot pick up sufficient viral load to be even 30% accurate until about the fourth day. This is not Delta or even Alpha, the game has changed. RATs are Tiger Moths against Messsersmits.

  10. Jenny how to get there 10

    A failure of the Left, leads to a resurgence of the Right
    Antivaxxers have claimed that they have attempted to file complaints against the Prime Minister and Grant Robertson with the police for murdering children.
    As the antivax movement sinks deeper into the far right conspiracy cesspool to indulge their revenge fantasies.

    As we have seen with the anti 1080 movement, the danger is this;

    As the antivax movement becomes more and more removed from reality their behavior will become more extreme Not only will their behavior become more extreme they will attract extremists to their cause.

    Extreme far right acts of vandalism against medical clinics and threats against health workers have already occurred.

    Prime Minister Arden has just slapped down her Associate Minister of Housing for suggesting that rent control could be part of the solution to cruelly unaffordable rents.

    It is this sort of cruelty that feeds into the mistrust and anti-government protests of the anti-vaxxers.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/jacinda-ardern-says-government-not-considering-rent-controls-after-poto-williams-floated-idea.html

    • Puckish Rogue 10.1

      'Prime Minister Arden has just slapped down her Associate Minister of Housing for suggesting that rent control could be part of the solution to cruelly unaffordable rents.'

      Ardern was right to do so.

    • arkie 10.2

      The Opposition last week described rent controls as a "crazy" idea, with ACT saying it would leave property investors with fewer incentives to create new supply – something that's badly needed.

      We already know property investors don't create new supply. It's baffling that people think that buying up multiple properties is a positive for the country, it's hoarding houses, denying others the chance to have their own place and build equity.

    • Ad 10.3

      Like the anti-1080 crowd, the key organisers will be well tracked by the Police.

      Police response other than under repeated provocation like Brian Tamaki has been remarkably restrained. The small bitter core will continue, and get wiretapped.

      All those encamped on Parliament's grounds may as well look up and smile for their SIS files.

      • Robert Guyton 10.3.1

        But they've got secret, non-Facebook communication networks, that are secure!

        • lprent 10.3.1.1

          Yeah right. Bearing in mind that the average protest voter has the technical capabilities of the community of crime, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the police are providing their secure technology.

      • higherstandard 10.3.2

        • Ad 10.3.2.1

          Nothing – after all Ardern's reforms following the Christchurch massacre – will be unwatched.

          This government has gone through troughs of unpopularity with each COVID wave and emerged stronger than ever each time.

          Yesterday she reminded us using the Game of Throne phrase: Winter Is Coming. Prepare.

          • higherstandard 10.3.2.1.1

            Yes I an reminded of Orwell again –

            “There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always— do not forget this, Winston— always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless.
            If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever. ”

            • Patricia Bremner 10.3.2.1.1.1

              Personally the boot is aimed at the virus. What makes you so certain it is aimed at you? Oh and patterns can be broken.

        • Jenny how to get there 10.3.2.2

          The burning down of cell phone towers, the trashing of a medical centre, the death threats against health care providers, the attacks on the media.

          The two minutes of hate is happening.

          The antivaxxers are tapping into a vein of powerless and dissatisfaction felt at the bottom of society and channeling it into a direction that does not address that powerless or inequity felt by the majority in their daily lives.

      • joe90 10.3.3

        Same crowd in my burg.

  11. Pataua4life 11

    I will channel my inner Mickey S

    https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8892-nz-national-voting-intention-january-2022-202202072332

    Robbo will be sharpening the knife. Tickets to NY booked.

    Clarke texting his mates his new US number.

    Jessica then Tova with runny mascara

    Beautiful.

    • joe90 11.1

      Polls are like First-kicks footie comps, eventually everyone scores and gets a prize to take home.

    • alwyn 11.2

      I guess we can expect a Post from Micky Savage under the title of

      "Ardern under pressure after latest Morgan Poll".

      The first paragraph will then include "The latest Morgan poll shows a resounding level of support for the National Party and there are murmurs of discontent about Jacinda Ardern after support for the left plummets."

      There'll be a BBQ at Robbo's this weekend I suppose.

      • lprent 11.2.1

        It does seem to be out of step with the other new year polls.

        However I am sure that a Hootonesque right blog that MS parodied will have put one up.

  12. joe90 12

    Jonathon hits the big time.

  13. observer 13

    Luxon wants the protesters gone. He's had enough of them.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018829811/covid-19-luxon-no-fan-of-parliament-protesters

    Starting to like this guy …wink

  14. joe90 14

    Because threatening to lynch people is what democracy looks like.

    /

  15. Sabine 15

    Lol

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/08/80-returnees-in-rotorua-miq-held-up-by-late-test-results/

    A group of 80 returnees at a Rotorua MIQ hotel are unable to leave as results from their day eight tests are late.

    lol

    lol

    lol

  16. Whispering Kate 16

    Testing

  17. Sanctuary 17

    The anti-vax crowd have been treated with incredible restraint by the state, which is showing a sympathy for the plight of these manipulated losers that is a credit to our democracy.

    But many of these people constitute an incipient terrorist movement. The anti-1080/Vax crowd is full of lone wolves just looking for an excuse for a riot and violence. They are therefore entirely appropriate targets of surveillance by internal state organs such as the police, SIS and GCSB who will at least have something else to do other than infiltrate Greenpeace.

    • Peter 17.1

      If Tama Iti and friends were doing exactly the same the redneck tractor drivers would be offering to go in there and sort them out.

      If it was just the Mongrel Mob doing it the anti-vaxx mob would be hiding under their beds praying for the Government to save them and waxing eloquent about the limits of freedom.

      • joe90 17.1.1

        White people are different.

        In Ottawa, protesters were seen urinating on the National War Memorial, dancing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and carrying signs and flags with swastikas. A protest in Alberta turned violent, with police saying protesters tried to run down Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers.

        Now, First Nations leaders have stepped into the fray, speaking out against the ongoing occupation and blockades, the protesters’ anti-vaccination stance and their use of Indigenous ceremonies and cultural items on traditional lands.

        “The actions that are taking place on our traditional Ottawa, Ontario, territory is unacceptable for those who are participating in these actions,” according to a statement issued by the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan, the Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation Tribal Council and the Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg.

        […]

        “If this blockade had been organized by Indigenous people, we have no doubt that authorities would respond quickly to remove the blockade and utilize the law that has been created to do so,” Adam said in a statement released Feb. 2.

        The trucker convoy began as a protest of vaccine mandates for truckers and a requirement that unvaccinated truckers returning from the U.S. to Canada must go into quarantine. Nearly 85 percent of eligible Canadians have been vaccinated, and the protesters have drawn no support from the large trucking companies or unions.

        The Alberta blockade appears to be in violation of the Critical Infrastructure Defense Act, which was introduced into the Alberta Legislature in February 2020 when the Wet’suwet’en pipeline protest in British Columbia was at its height. It went into law four months later.

        https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/first-nations-speak-out-against-trucker-convoy

    • Robert Guyton 17.2

      How would it be, if the vast majority of New Zealanders, rose up against the simpering malcontents/antivaxxers, and said, "enough!"?

    • pat 17.3

      Apply that logic to a group you support…dosnt read too well does it?

  18. Whispering Kate 18

    Lprent we finally got the Amazon device cleared and somehow hubby managed to get the page up on today's date after much tweaking. Thanks for your help.

    May you and yours stay well with pandemic. Kia kaha

  19. Blade 19

    The reliability or otherwise of RAT tests is well known. Several NZ firms have said they had very liable test kits and were prepared to put their reputation on the line.

    The government wasn't interested.

    ''We should follow Australia's lead and allow employers to manage workplace testing?''

    That was the sad thing – we didn't have to follow anyone. New Zealand firms knocked on the governments door.

    The sooner the dozy middleclass wake up ( see News Hub survey), the sooner we can can show this government the door.

    meant for @Joe90 upstairs re Robbos letter and RATS.

    • lprent 19.1

      The government had already ordered to supply their critical employees.

      It appears that the companies just ordered later.

  20. Ah, choices, choices . . .

    NZ vs India Woman's T20 on TV1, or Question Time in Parliament on Ch 31.

    I fear the cricket will win!

  21. Jenny how to get there 21

    If people think you are an idiot it is best to say (or do), nothing and remove all doubt.

    All doubt is finally removed

    Trevor Mallard is an idiot

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-protest-protesters-react-angrily-when-police-trespass-them-from-parliament/6Q2F7SLIS3ZOMG236SEQSGUBIA/

    • Shanreagh 21.1

      Not sure he has actually issued a trespass just reminded them …unless you are linking to some thing quite recent. You link does not work for me.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/trevor-mallard-orders-anti-mandate-protesters-to-remove-tents-or-face-trespass-from-parliament-grounds.html

      • Nic the NZer 21.1.1

        The police handed over a tresspass notice. This is mostly down to pitching tents on parliament grounds. They would be more than welcome to just keep coming back each day but likely this was organised so as to run into a tresspass notice.

      • Jenny how to get there 21.1.2

        Hi Shanreagh,

        Sorry the link didn't work and you weren't able to read it.

        It is from the NZ Herald.

        I probably should have added some key sections from the Herald's report in the case that the link didn't work for some people.

        Covid 19 convoy protest: Protesters react angrily when police trespass them from Parliament

        9 Feb, 2022 12:00 PM

        Upon receiving the notice protest organisers responded angrily and threw the notice back at the officer in charge. Video / Supplied

        Protesters who camped at Parliament overnight show no signs of retreating despite a heavy police presence.

        Tensions have eased slightly since protesters reacted angrily to being issued a trespass notice by police earlier this morning.

        At least 100 officers greeted protesters today, many of whom had camped overnight at Parliament after travelling across the country in convoy to protest against vaccine mandates and the Government's response to the Covid-19 pandemic.

        Upon receiving the trespass notice at about 10.30am protest organisers reacted angrily, throwing it at the police officer in charge….

        ……Speaker Trevor Mallard had earlier threatened to trespass the protesters.

        At 1.30pm the protesters still showed no intention of leaving, with tents erected and many sitting on picnic blankets or camping chairs…..

        …..When questioned about options for towing away illegally parked vehicles, Wellington City Council spokesman Richard MacLean said they were aware the end of Lambton Quay by the bus terminal was blocked.

        "We are working with police on our options regarding illegally parked vehicles, taking into account our desire not to put our staff in danger," he said.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-convoy-protest-protesters-react-angrily-when-police-trespass-them-from-parliament/6Q2F7SLIS3ZOMG236SEQSGUBIA/

        Mallard seems to be hell bent on a confrontation, which is exactly what these nutters want.

        Best to let them fade away.

        Trevor Mallard, instead of trying to be a GI Joe action figure and bully boy, hell bent on confrontation. Order the Council to do their lawful duty and start towing away all the illegally parked SUVs on Lambton Quay.

        See how long this occupation lasts then.

        Not long is my guess.

        Indications are that if Mallard wants to give these nutters war they are prepared for it.

        The following is an unsolicited email from this scum that arrived in my inbox just now.

        [deleted]

        Mallard is an idiot with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop

        [I deleted the long copypasta email. You can repost the politically relevant stuff, minus all the unnecessary stuff. Next time I see you expecting moderators to spend time doiong to do your job I will probably just dump the whole comment in trash. – weka]

        • weka 21.1.2.1

          mod note.

        • Jenny how to get there 21.1.2.2

          I know what you mean.

          It is all irrelevant. The aggressive arrogant tone, is what is conveyed in the long unsolicited unhinged rant.
          My eyeballs are burning.

          I admit that nothing would give me more pleasure than to see this awful rabble hosed off the steps of parliament with fire hose. (which I feel is what it would take if we followed Mallard's prescription).

          Better to let them stew in their own juices.

          Think of it as an experiment, a control group if you will, of non-mask wearing antivaxxers gathered altogether on the national stage all in one spot in a tent village on the forecourt of parliament, under the full glare of the media.

          I wonder what will happen after their first outbreak of omicron rips through their makeshift unvaccinated tent village.

          Will their tearful heartfelt regrets be broadcast to the nation?

          Before they leave for hospital, will they be begging others not to follow their example?

          Let them stay I reckon.

  22. weka 22

    Hahaha, bookmarking for the next time someone tries this shit about the Greens.

    • Sabine 22.1

      Have Act gone out to state that they only will work with National? I can't find anything to that extend, while the Greens have in the past refused to entertain the idea of a Coaltion with National.

      And in saying that this article is from 2008, so dated. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2008/86464/greens-rule-out-coalition-with-national

      Personally my believe is that any third party that wants to be in government should keep an open mind and try to form a coalition with any party that would have them.

      See the current Red/Green/Yellow configuration in Germany, also called the Ampel Regierung (aka traffic light government). Yellow – the FDP being ACT.

      • weka 22.1.1

        The Green Party ruled out supporting formation of a National government because there is no shared values or policy upon which to do that. This is supported by the members. The Greens will work with any party on policy.

        Act don't need to rule out supporting a Labour government, because they're not interested and because the MSM have no interested in stirring that pot, probably because no-one on the left is trying to. Unlike the right.

      • Robert Guyton 22.1.2

        ACT have indicated/declared/intimated they'll coalesce with labour?

        Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

        Nice one, Sabine!

    • Robert Guyton 22.2

      That's well observed, weka: ACT are achieving…nothing (barring piss and wind).

  23. Ad 23

    I've been waiting for a very, very long time to see a dystopian dairy thriller comedy set in New Zealand , so here it is:

    CREAMERIE Trailer (2022) Thriller Series – YouTube

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 23.1

      Thanks and good to know! Loved the first series.

      Wellness just makes me SICK – hilarious

  24. Joe90 24

    Counterspin media muppets have announced their intent to storm Parliament at 3pm.

    • McFlock 24.1

      Mild drizzle at parliament: scuffles, calls for executions, but Stuff is reporting only 3 arrests and the first line of cops held.

      So the crowd sung the national anthem, then Slice of Heaven.

      • Matiri 24.1.1

        One of protestors has just been arrested and photographed on Stuff wearing an ANZCO shirt (meat processing company). ANZCO will not be at all happy with him!

      • Drowsy M. Kram 24.1.2

        So the crowd sung the national anthem, then Slice of Heaven.

        Slice of HeavenAnchor MeWe Don't Know How Lucky We Are spoilt for choice.

        Her love shines over my horizon, she's a slice of heaven, yeah

    • Peter 24.2

      Are they part of the group that says Ardern is a cross between Hitler Stalin Yong-un Lenin and Pol Pot?

      And that her tyrannical rule and politicising the police force are destroying the country for foreign masters?

      You know the sort of nutcase stuff they say about her at protests like this.

      Let me get it right, if things were as they claim wouldn't there be bodies all over the steps of Parliament? Probably not today after trying to break through the barrier but yesterday. The area would have been cleared well before morning if she was the beast they have her as. Thing is, the deranged mob know how lucky they are to be in a civilised country.

  25. Adrian 25

    Get your tickets here !,!. Think you had a sore head after a night on the P and piss..brace yourselves boofheads. I presume any future brain damage lawsuits will fail on the ol’ Pre Existing Condition hurdle.

  26. Blade 26

    What the hell…Nashy is gone. Resigned live on air.

    Did he get the hard word from his boss? Or did Nashy do it on his own volition?

    He was someone in Labour who actually still has a foot in reality.

    We will miss you, son. The best of Tory luck.

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/video/labour-mp-stuart-nash-quits-mike-hoskings-radio-show-live-on-air/

    • Muttonbird 26.1

      Hoskings chews up another one. If you take this to its logical conclusion, eventually there will be no-one for him to talk to.

      • Puckish Rogue 26.1.1

        There'll always be a politician wanting some free publicity

        • Blade 26.1.1.1

          Any guesses who will step up, PR? If no one does, then we could guess Labour are putting down the shutters as our situation becomes worse – eg Covid and the economy?

      • Peter 26.1.2

        Brilliant, then he can be our leader all by himself! For years he's made out that he has the answers to everything.

      • Robert Guyton 26.1.3

        But he, himself, always ready to chatter, Hoski! The chamber that echoes!

    • Stuart Munro 26.2

      Nash has come to his senses at last.

      Mike is not to be taken seriously.

      He will never give this government remotely balanced treatment, and his reckons are as profoundly and consistently wrong as Treasury's.

      Key used him to suck up to the oiks, but no remotely credible government should ever have had anything to do with him.

    • Blazer 26.3

      AFAIC it would be good if Nash resigned from the LP too….he belongs with the…Natz..

      'I've been doing the show now for five years. I think people know and I get this feedback that Mitch and I are great mates and believe it or not I actually consider you a good mate too," the MP told Hosking. no

      • pat 26.3.1

        Look at the History of the Napier electorate and ask yourself if Nash is likely to resign from Labour anytime soon

        • Blazer 26.3.1.1

          Well wannabe mayor Leo Molloy has challenged him to a 'fight for life'…maybe he can punch him in the face…..then again maybe that diminutive loudmouth isn't …capable of..that.

          • pat 26.3.1.1.1

            Politicians beating each other in a ring….sounds like a more productive use of their energies.

  27. DS 27

    Well, well. Turns out that the public does not want border reopening after all:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/newshub-reid-research-poll-majority-of-kiwis-support-keeping-border-closed-to-keep-out-omicron.html

    Remind me again why the Government is folding like a wet paper bag in the face of media pressure?

  28. Blade 28

    I'm always told I'm full of crap when I say the agenda of pan Maori elite is full control of New Zealand at best, or their own Maori government with legislative power and access to taxpayer dollars in perpetuity, at worst.

    These gormless wonders are making news across the globe.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/07/new-zealand-maori-party-calls-for-a-divorce-from-britains-royal-family

    • arkie 28.1

      The Waitangi Tribunal found in 2014 that:

      The rangatira who signed te Tiriti o Waitangi in February 1840 did not cede sovereignty to the British Crown (from MLR)

      If you want to you can read the whole report here

  29. Blade 29

    Winston smells blood in the water. National need him to mop up undecided votes.

    ''@winstonpeters

    First we were told covid would overrun our hospitals. We were told to vaccinate – so we did. Many made that sacrifice. We were told that 90% vax gave herd immunity. So why is govt still forcing crushingly inconsistent thoughtless mandates attacking freedoms, businesses, & jobs?''

    • McFlock 29.1

      oh, anyone swallowing that crap has already decided how they'll vote.

      • Blade 29.1.1

        Well, I wouldn't be so sure.

        But if you know – I guess you know.

        • McFlock 29.1.1.1

          As if any of them were considering voting for the government, anyway. If ACT and NZ1 and a couple of nats want to fight amongst themselves for the 3%, alienating the voters who are not extremists… please, I hope they do.

  30. Jenny how to get there 30

    The stupid it hurts.
    We would be better off just leaving them alone. Let the crazies run their inane protest into the ground, while we all watch.

    The anti-vaccine mandate protest at Parliament turned ugly on Wednesday afternoon as parts of the crowd skirmished with police, with some being taken into custody.

    Some in the crowd crossed the picket line which separated protesters and police, resulting in a melee. At least three people who were involved in the skirmish were seen being taken away by police.

    Not long after the incident, a Stuff visual journalist was targeted by a protester for wearing a mask.

    The protester shouted obscenities at him for wearing a mask before riding a child’s BMX at him.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127718747/protesters-taken-into-custody-after-clash-with-police

    The 'ugly' has only just begun.
    ​​​​​​​

  31. Blade 31

    My message to Cuddles Costa:

    Sir,

    I'm guessing you MAY have been subject to political guidance re the present protests outside parliament.

    However, you should be reminded of your duty as Commissioner. You may hold the lives of people and the fate of our nation in your hands.

    Your troops cannot sustain their presence outside parliament in the long term.

    I need not remind you the weekend is approaching. That' means more people with free time on their hands, and a boozed up night life looking for trouble. And of course the possibility of new protesters from all over the country converging over the weekend.

    Do the right thing. Forget about looking good for the cameras, or having worries about the ethnicities of protesters. Move them on.

    Regards

    Blade

    Tory exiled in the Hive.

  32. Anne 32

    Do the right thing. Forget about looking good for the cameras, or having worries about the ethnicities of protesters. Move them on.

    yes

    Studying some of the live footage… Pakeha still outnumber Maori.

  33. georgecom 33

    So here is my opinion on at least some of the reasons why the anti-vax/anti-lockdown/pro trump/anti mask wearing/mentally deficient & simple minded/gullible or ignorant/conspiracy theorist etc protest to parliament will not successful. No one can argue about the anti-whatever groups passion and their ability to be a nuisance and create some chaos. However, where is their plan?

    What is the outcome they want, what does the 'win look like'. State a clear outcome and work backward in order to ascertain what you need to do to win. I haven't heard anyone clearly articulate to the media or NZ public what the intended win is.

    What is the key core message. Figure out the core message and stick to it. be disciplined. I am not sure if this is a covid denier group, anti masks, anti lock downs, god will protect you, anti vaxer, pro trump, white power, trust maori herbalists etc movement. every little fringe group has brought their own issues and agenda.

    Once you have the key message figured out, stick to it and have well prepped people to speak to the media, the public, politicans etc. Have resources available to articulate that message. Don't abuse the media, don't tell them they will be executed, don't hassle and abuse members of the public, don't abuse and jostle passers by. In other words, do not alienate those whose support you want.

    Be inventive, think a bit outside the box, have some gimmicks and publicity stunts to draw attention to your issue. Street theatre has long been used, the Unite union use a large blow up rat, Iranians and their applies love burning US flags, Lockwood Smith was dubbed Lockwood Myth. Issuing arrest warrants and search warrants was a potential very good publicity stunt/gimmick. The problem was that the ant-whatever movement actually think they have the authority to enforce the warrants. They didn't use such to get publicity, they think it is a legal tool they can actually use successfully..

    To me that last issue smacks of the fringe lunatic US anon movement who thought trump was about to clean up us politics rather than just desperately trying to cling to power by whatever perversions and lies he could conjure up. That is probably the biggest hurdle this anti-whatever hikoi has, the lunatic fringe elements within it's ranks. Even if there was a clear idea of what the win is and a core set of key messages, the unhinged fringes in their various causes quickly becomes the colour with which the entire lot are painted. The media have gone to some lengths to report the threats made to them and the accusations of being liars and hiding the truth.

    Only thing yet to be revealed perhaps, when will Harete Hipango go out to get some selfies with the crowd.

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