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Open mike 09/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 9th, 2020 - 200 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

200 comments on “Open mike 09/08/2020 ”

  1. Dennis!!??

    Where are you?

    • Sacha 1.1

      a fair question

      • lprent 1.1.1

        People can sleep in on Sundays. There is no requirement to be here. This is a voluntary participation.

        Quite why I am here is a question. I have code for work that isn't coming out and a partially written post.

        But my partner is about to do a international zoom next to me – and one sided conversations about writing are so tedious.

        I'm replaying Dungeon Siege 1 on steam on Ubuntu 20.04 when I have a spare half-hour. I think I might take a half hour with headphones and do some small group tactics rather than working.

        • Sacha

          Rust never sleeps 🙂

          • lprent

            Or just old age. I find I like some old games on newer machines. DS1 came out in 2002. Running it on wine in on a 16 core linux server with 64GB RAM and a AMD RX480 video may seem like overkill. Especially in 2560×1200 video mode (the original only went up to 1280px). But it is a pleasant change.

            Also way more stable on linux than playing it on windows XP.

    • millsy 1.2

      Having a life beyond this blog.

  2. The Chairman 2

    There seems to be a lot of talk about the use of face masks of late, hence I thought (being a Sunday an all) some here may want to have a look at this clip below.

    [lprent: You have provided no explanation about why you think it is worth anyone expending time to watch this.

    If you can’t be bothered to expend time to write a few sentences or paragraphs explaining why you think that others should give up their time, then you’re not expressing your opinion – you’re merely astro-turfing without putting your own skin in the game.

    Most people who read on this site won’t watch link spam without a explanation. All you will get are barbed comments about how much of a dickhead you are being. I don’t consider that fosters ‘robust debate’ – perhaps you’d like to disagree? To do so, you’re going to have to carefully explain your opinion and the reasons why you think we should put up with this kind of gutless crap behaviour.

    But in the meantime I’d strongly suggest that you don’t waste moderator this way ever again. Weka gave you a pretty clear direction about it yesterday. Your choice and I going to insist that you make it immediately. ]

    • Robert Guyton 2.1

      The Chair's here instead, touting for a dodgy-looking guy in a mask.

    • Andre 2.2

      *sigh* More random blathering from random dude posted by another random dude on da webz.

      For those that prefer to get factual evidence-based information from actual experts that takes a lot less than 25 minutes to get across:



      • Matiri 2.2.1

        Thanks Andre – those Ministry of Health guidelines are excellent – succinct and clear.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          …those Ministry of Health guidelines are excellent – succinct and clear.


          If you've been following the MOH Guidelines since this shit kicked off, they have been anything but.

          But of course…previous versions of The Guidelines disappear from their site so it makes it difficult to call them out on their inconsistencies.

          But…if it makes y'all feel cumfy-cosy and well looked after by the Misery..all good.

          • Hanswurst

            Not living in NZ, I haven't had cause to look at the MoH website with respect to that, but conflicting/changing guidelines on CoVid 19 from people in authority are certainly not restricted to ministries of health, nor to NZ.

          • McFlock

            Altering guidelines according to latest best-available information is a good thing.

            • Rosemary McDonald

              Altering guidelines according to latest best-available information is a good thing.

              And I have no issue with the Misery of Health changing their guidelines. What I did, and still do have a problem with is them failing to adopt a precautionary approach from Day 1 when it came to the use of PPE for front line health workers. Despite some experts recommending this.

              What I did, and still do have a problem with is the Mystery assuming(despite no evidence) that Te Virus could only be transmitted by people with symptoms. Quite possibly a significant error considering 40% of infected people are asymptomatic. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/08/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-covid/

              I have no problem with the asymptomatic Covid 19 infected free -ranging, such is the way of communities acquiring natural herd immunity. What I do have a problem with is the unnecessary risk that was taken with the health and lives of our most vulnerable by our Government choosing to follow the 'experts' who most supported the reality of our own dismal pandemic preparedness. https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/nz-35th-pandemic-preparedness

              What they could have, should have done early on was to be honest and transparent with us and admit stocks of kit were dangerously low. Admit that they had no idea whether asymptomatic people could pass on infection and advise all front line health workers to take all possible precautions until the science had been done. We would have made our own fucking masks. Oh, that's right. Some of us did.

              But they didn't. Did they? There have been deaths of vulnerable people and there have been cases of front line workers becoming infected. I know the precautions I took, and still take, and I know the same applied to others in the disability community. We are a resilient bunch, we've had to be, and without actually having made an OIA request for the data I suspect that many disabled people requiring care turned in number to their family bubbles. Which is why we're now being paid…somewhat ironic after a twenty year battle… to have a virus get us over the line.

              We will remember though. Again, the Ministry of Health abandoned those at the coalface with near callous disregard and again they claim to have been acting according to 'best advice.'

              They were caught short. They had failed to prepare for the inevitable. They denied. They obfuscated. They behaved exactly how those of us who have been unfortunate enough to have to have dealt with them expected.

              Pisses me off somewhat that some folks sing their praises.

              • McFlock

                The advice I've seen from the ministry over this period has always been couched in terms of "available evidence" or "no significant evidence", and prioritisation of resources.

                As for singing their praises, 100+ days of zero community transmission is pretty much the best result in the world so far. If the MoH were a sports team, they'd have a goddamned parade down Queen St. And deserve it.

      • The Chairman 2.2.2

        *sigh* More random blathering from random dude posted by another random dude on da webz.

        Would you prefer we discuss the video exposing Labour that is doing the rounds on youtube?

        • Muttonbird

          Go on then.

        • weka

          Would you prefer we discuss the video exposing Labour that is doing the rounds on youtube?

          We went through this yesterday. I don't want to get into bold mode, so let me spell it out. If *you want to post videos at the top of OM, you will need to explain what the video is about. If you don't I will consider it spam and remove it.

          If *you want to make claims about serious or controversial things (eg yesterday it was covid treatments, today it's exposing Labour), then you have to link to something useful to the debate. I explained what useful means yesterday.

          You've been here long enough to get how things work here, and when I spend my Saturday taking the time to explain things and then see them ignored on Sunday it irritates me. The closer we get to the election the more likely I am to just ban people who have form.

          You're good a provoking discussion here, I'd just like to see you make it more constructive and less flamey. Links and explanations would go a long way.

        • Rapunzel

          You Tube? Are you serious? I'm sure anything verifiable & of importance &interest would make into media somewhere. I've recently had a conversation getting their "information" from Youtube & Facebook they were seriously on another planet

      • joe90 2.2.3

        Pinnng! Pwang!

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.4

        …actual evidence-based information from actual experts…

        Dontcha actually mean today's actual evidence-based information from today's actual experts?

        Because, like, not so long ago we were told 'you don't need masks, or only if you have the symptoms of The Virus (because, like, only those with symptoms are infectious) or only if you have to get close to someone who has symptoms of the virus, and disabled people and their home based carers don't need masks..' et bleeding cetera…

        And then there was the 'wearing masks is DANGEROUS, because, like, non -scientists are too thick to don and doff them properly, and the latest…'we only said "NO MASKS!!!" because (despite claims to the contrary from the wonderfully efficient Ministry of Health) there were not enough of them in the country for everyone who needed them.

        A little white lie…no harm done. Right?

        So hard for we mere mortals to keep up.

    • Gabby 2.3

      I for one appreciate your public spiritedness and eagerness to share crucial information. Do you have views on the efficacy of prayer in the fighting of viral infection?

      • Robert Guyton 2.3.1

        Or any on the correct pronunciation of the modern-day name for Old Siam?

      • Andre 2.3.2

        Gabby, I think you're being a bit neglectful of the potential efficacy of thoughts as well as prayers.

        • Ad

          Thoughts and prayers, Andre, thoughts and prayers…

          • UncookedSelachimorpha

            That is a stunningly powerful ad!!

            • AB

              Yes. But remember the Lincoln Project are Republicans. And they know that intellectually, and in policy terms, Joe Biden is an empty vessel waiting to be filled. I imagine they will be right in the queue ready to do that filling via positions in his administration.

              • Ad

                Biden's team have cooperated very closely with the Sanders team and adopted a number of their positions.

                Biden has outsourced some policy formation to the Sanders' team – our own Labour party has done this even more strongly from the Greens.

                And you shouldn't expect a Biden victory to mean a cabinet full of Democrats. He will be seeking to isolate the extremes of Trump's Senate support, by including moderate Republicans.

                You get that sense easily here:

                The depth of the decay and disorder in Washington from the Trump regime will require a Biden team to focus on a few core areas for the first year. Spreading too thin is a recipe for major embarassment. Biden needs a very steady course in 2021 (should he win), in order that he sets up a smooth transition to the VP for the second term.

                • AB

                  We'll see. Or at least I hope we will. It seems that Biden will be open to influence, but to an extent that is constrained by what his donors will permit.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha

                Absolutely – I've been following the Lincoln project crowd and Biden. I would disagree with them on many things and am no fan of either, but I agree with them on the efficacy of the orange loon.

    • Incognito 2.4

      I prefer The Mask of Zorro.

    • lprent 2.5

      Please check my note on your comment about your behaviour.

    • The Chairman 2.6

      You have provided no explanation about why you think it is worth anyone expending time to watch this.

      But I did. As I stated, there has been a lot of talk about the use of face masks of late. And the clip is about the use of face masks.

      Whether people want to watch it is up to them. It's no big deal to me if they don't.

      It seems those that don't want to watch it, yet want to come on here and make barbed comments are the problem your attention should be focused on opposed to the person that put up a relevant and interesting clip. Don't you think?

      [6 month ban. For wasting moderator time after multiple warnings and basically ignoring what we are saying, also previous bans. You’re probably lucky I haven’t gone and looked up your ban history. The big thing for me here is that despite all your years here you still think you get to dictate how the site should operate instead of taking guidance from the mods including one of the people that owns the site. – weka]

      • Incognito 2.6.1

        FFS! Your opinion is this: ‘I post this 25-min video because in my opinion some people might be interested in watching it’.

        Whether people want to watch it is up to them. It's no big deal to me if they don't.

        In other words, you have no interest in debate and/or other opinions. In my opinion, that’s describes the behaviour of a cowardly astroturfing troll.

        So, here we are again, ‘discussing’ the same old same old behaviour of you here and you have now attracted the attention of three Moderators 🙁

        I think I have a solution for this 🙂

        • Pete George

          It's quite common in social media for people to post links to things they think may be of interest to others. I do it a lot to provide a variety of information and to promote discussion on various things.

          You can obviously demand what you like here, but it seems odd to me, unless perhaps you don't like the content at the link.

          O see that others have posted links with little or no comment without reprimand.

          • weka

            it's been a longstanding premise here to not spam the site. Not a hard guideline to follow. If you want to post youtubes at the top of OM esp, then introduce the vid. Likewise other content. You will notice that it's the people that post spam a lot and ignore what people are saying about it that get moderator attention.

            • weka

              and you know, I have no idea what the content of the video is. Seriously, none. We went through this yesterday and with some prompting TC provided some useful links that explained things (introduce the vid, back up claims of fact). If he'd done that today he wouldn't be on a six month ban now. In other words, it's zero to do with the content.

            • Pete George

              Posts of possible interest to others and conservation starters are spam?

              "irrelevant or unsolicited messages sent over the Internet, typically to a large number of users, for the purposes of advertising, phishing, spreading malware"


              • weka

                no, on this site, videos with no explanation of what they are about are spam when posted regularly by the same person who has been asked to provide explanations.

              • Sacha

                Posts of possible interest to others and conservation starters are spam?

                See the comment just below yours @ 2.6.2

                That's something you could have easily put in a sentence or two if you wanted to start an informative discussion.

                Trolling is probably a better description than spam: not behaving in ways that match intent to have an actual discussion. Destructive to any conversation space. Brings out the worst in others.

          • Robert Guyton

            Pete flies in, like an enraged hen, feathers flying, scaly legs akimbo, to defend The Chairman!

          • Incognito

            You can obviously demand what you like here …

            No Pete, I cannot, and you should know this. So, please stop making BS assertions about Moderation and particularly my Moderation here. FYI, Moderation is rarely about contents, rather lack of content/opinion and behaviour are the most common triggers.

      • Andre 2.6.2

        Right now, there's already around 30 comments in the thread and no-one's the wiser as to whether video dude argues for masks being a good thing or a hoax, nor any of the reasons why.

        That's something you could have easily put in a sentence or two if you wanted to start an informative discussion. And may have given people a reason to actually watch the video. Maybe.

    • JohnSelway 2.7

      God you’re a self involved, pompous, arrogant dick LPrent. Why are you such a wanker all the time? A little self reflection might do you some good.

      [lprent: I do that all of the time. It is part of doing the work of a moderator. And I’d get hell at the back end from the other moderators if I do it in such a way that made their lives harder.

      But from your comment, I have no idea what exactly you’re getting wound up about unless it is The Chairman ignoring previous warnings.

      However I don’t really need a fool incoherently trying to advise me of my responsibilities and especially when they manage to

      1. Not tell me what they are indignant about.
      2. Not saying why they are indignant about it.
      3. Not say what course of action that they’d prefer instead.
      4. And therefore are clearly only interested in simple abuse rather than any real desire to change anything.
      5. And are clearly just too damn lazy to do the work to change anything.

      Perhaps you should reflect on the fact that you read like a complete self-entitled dimwit who couldn’t put together anything apart from a spluttering and completely meaningless indignation. Perhaps you should model yourself on Pete George. I might disagree with his indignation, but at least he is capable of framing an objection that is coherent. Clearly you’ve never been personally reflective enough to even achieve that. ]

      • JohnSelway 2.7.1

        Heh. A cock to the end you are

        [lprent: As I implied above – you really are a stupid lazy and bumbling idiot – you somehow neglected to make the effort to deal with any of the points that I listed. I’m presuming that you’re just trying for the troll equivalent of death by cop. But so far all you’re managing to do is to look as stupid as the machines that service you. ]

        • JohnSelway

          You’re so utterly up your own ass. Tell us again about your MBA, earth sciences degree And how great you are at coding.

          Just a pompous old git dripping with self importance.

          • Muttonbird

            John, you seem desperate for a holiday, but are being left hanging.

            Can't be comfortable.

            • JohnSelway

              I’m just amazed at what little insight LPrent into himself. And I’m fine with copping a ban. I have great insight into my failings and success. LPrent struts around with such and unearned self importance – throwing his belief into his own masterful intellect as if he were the first person in the world to get an MBA.

              its really pathetic

              • Muttonbird

                Ok, then. But rather than being fine with a ban you seem hell-bent on one.

                It is churlish and ignorant for you to claim LPrent has 'unearned' anything regarding this forum. As far as I can tell he funds and operates the entire show for our benefit with little or no recompense for time and hardware.

                For a long time I have thought you are a complete and utter toss-pot. You apparently agree.

              • Incognito

                Well, he does run this site quite successfully and has done so for years and it comes with certain bragging rights that only small troll egos cannot handle. I’ve a little more insight in what goes on behind the scenes and I’m impressed and grateful for his efforts.

                Many people read this site for free and those who like to comment or even write Guest Posts get support from Lprent and other volunteers. Yet there are a few who seem to think that because this is a free platform they have a natural right to whinge and whine about how things are done here and criticise the people who (help) run this site with indemnity. Their attitude is wrong at so many levels and it is extremely frustrating having to listen to and deal with those misguided self-entitled and ungrateful small minds.

                John, I’m sure you’re a decent kind of bloke, but if you cannot stand this site and/or its SYSOP, I’d suggest you leave and don’t come back.

                • JohnSelway

                  I’m a very decent person. But I can’t stand arrogance of which LPrent is dripping it. He injects his “expertise” into nearly every post and comment. “Oh, I code”, “something something my MBA”, “earth science degree”. Well done you’ve succeeded…. like many many other people.

                  then the constant use of the term “dick heads”. Jesus man, get the fuck over yourself. I know I’m a nobody but I’ve carved a happy life for myself and wanks like Prent hey no truck from me. I can’t believe no one else sees it

                  • Andre

                    I can’t believe no one else sees it

                    Perhaps it's more a case of seeing merit in not pissing on the shoes of one of the people, actually the person most responsible for providing this playground that the rest of us get to use for free.

                  • Incognito

                    Of the thousands of comments and Posts, you tend to focus on Lprent’s knowing full well that it winds you up and it shows. Please get a grip and if you cannot get over it, please leave; you’re spoiling it for others and only thinking about your own feelings and even asking (for) others to ‘see it’. Please stop it now and please don’t do this ever again, thank you.

                  • lprent

                    If you're concerned about language, then I am sure that I can find a few other languages to say the same thing in – octal perhaps. But frankly if you don't like the way that I express myself, then perhaps you should look at the way that you use it. A couple of your comments further up for instance.

                    Most people on the site simply don't care that much. They're interested in debate rather than paragraph punctuation.

                    I, like most people here, talk about things we have experience with, that includes family, work experience, education, dealings with WINZ, the material read, and sometimes things that we research. Most will usually state how confident they are with whatever they're saying and provide a reason for that or a link or a source.

                    I realise that you don't do that kind of typically just make bald assertions of usually challenged 'fact'. I can understand that the comparison between makes you uncomfortable. But I really don't care.

                    Personally I'm writing for the people whose opinion I actually care about – those who can tell me that I'm wrong, why they think that, and where they got that piece of shit idea from. This is robust debate – ideas get challenged. Assertions get destroyed. And long held beliefs may need a bit of quiet adjustment.

                    Robust debate is what the site was started for. It is in the first paragraph of our policy. Defending that basic principle for the site is the most common reason for moderation. If you want to have something different, then I suggest that you follow the advise in the last part of the About. Find another site or start your own

                    But you've been bitching about the same thing for most of a decade under one name or another. Perhaps you should get off the fence again and try it.

                    • Anne

                      Ok, I'm going to put my spoke in too.

                      So, John Selway – the fellow who claims he's decent – has been commenting here for years under different names? That's enough to ring alarm bells for me. If you're a decent person you don't use different names. You stick with the same name and people can get to know you and choose to trust you or otherwise.

                      And I might add it is only the trolls, trouble makers and the really stupid who feel the lash of the lprent tongue. He's remarkably kind to the rest of us. 😎

                    • JohnSelway

                      It's cute you think what you do is 'robust debate'.

                      You don't debate, you use this forum as your fiefdom to show how much better than everyone you think you are.

                      People with different opinions or politics to you are dick heads (jesus man, get a better insult – it's always dick heads), you like to feel better and more important than other people and have no problem making sure everyone knows what an amazingly smart and well educated person you are compared to everyone else.

                      Fuck sake man, get some perspective.

            • Incognito

              I think John needs self-isolation more than anything.

              • McFlock

                Or has had a bit much, and wants to receive a virtual spanking just for the variation in sensation.

          • xanthe


  3. ScottGN 3

    Not for the first time a politic journo assumes that what they want is what we all want.

    “At some point we could all use a little less triangulation and bit more of an ideological clash.“


    • Cooke has an agenda. He asked a loaded question during the stand up. Jacinda said she knew where that was going and answered briefly. He was plainly miffed.

  4. Pat 4

    “There is only one logical conclusion given where we are now: we have no alternative but to commit to more radical political action. To get as many people as possible involved in campaigning activities just as often as possible. To bring such pressure to bear on our political systems, while we still have time, to shift from today’s wholly inadequate incrementalism to full-on emergency response. The case for civil disobedience is now overwhelming.”


    Is anyone listening?…..it appears that perhaps 5 or 6% of kiwis may have half an ear attuned.

    • Robert Guyton 4.1

      This local body politician is and I've emailed the article to my fellow regional councillors. Yesterday, I did a video-interview on the topic of climate change that will be broadcast somewhere later this year. Some of the questions were around the issue of conservative thinking and the response from the agricultural sector.

      • Pat 4.1.1

        It astounds me that although there is quite some amount of coverage via media, public speaking events, academic research/statements the apparent impact on public opinion when it comes time for political action is just not there. Labour (or any broadly supported political party) will not move on meaningful action on CC policy until such time as they see their support disappearing to the likes of the Greens.

        Homo Sapiens my arse.

        • Incognito

          Agreed. They will cherry-pick suitable policies and massage and water them down to make them more palatable for the not-so-radical middle. In doing this, they will remove the vital oxygen and lifeline from other minor parties. Labour is just window dressing CC because of: Covid now, something else next. In the near future, we’re likely to experience more natural disasters and pandemics and they’re going to become more and more costly to our society and economy. Short-termism kills in the long-term, just look at smoking, poor diet, or alcohol and other substance abuse: a slow wearing and grinding down of one’s health and immune system till the body (and mind) can no longer cope and shit hits the fan, literally.

          • Sacha

            The real shame is seeing way too many politicians and party officials across the spectrum prepared to squander decades of future funding right now propping up yesterdays' priorities in the face of increasing threats (the 2022 global financial crash, 2023 foot and mouth outbreak, 2024 drought, Covid-25, the 2027 algal bloom..) – rather than on the fundamental changes to reduce the harm of climate change and severe economic and social dislocation.

            Representing cowardly voters and lobbyists can't be a satisfying career. Yet here we are.

        • Draco T Bastard

          It astounds me that although there is quite some amount of coverage via media, public speaking events, academic research/statements the apparent impact on public opinion when it comes time for political action is just not there.

          “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

          Upton Sinclair

          Why do you think that politicians, from both National and Labour, are always going on about jobs?

          People don't have the time or energy to get riled up about the damage the present system is causing and they're dependent upon the system continuing to 'work'.

          Even when politicians do go on about transformation they're not talking about changing the system. They're there to keep the same failed system in place for the rich.

  5. dv 5

    Oops NZF

    Jones on 15%!!!


    A 1 News Colmar Brunton poll has Jones on just 15 per cent support, with National's Matt King, the incumbent, on 46 per cent and Labour candidate Willow Jean-Prime on 31 per cent.

    And Peters wants the elderly to get out and work

    That sounds like a winner!!!

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      Massive vote splitting:

      King 46% National 35%

      Prime 31% Labour 41%

      You could assume this will be repeated in safe blue seats all over the country.

    • Treetop 5.2

      I thought I heard the figure on Q&A that approx 400 people were called on a landline.

  6. Peter 6

    So a Stuff political journalist thinks voters deserve a contest of ideas.

    Well, a Stuff journalist thinks the people deserve something substantial to challenge their minds and promote considered discussion?

    Excuse me? This is 2020, this is New Zealand. They've moved us on to other ways of operating. We don't do that any more. They want to turn on the 'serious' tap when they took out all the plumbing for it years ago.

    • Muttonbird 6.1

      Nice analogy. The media made politics about personality over policy. Bit late for them to be crying foul now.

  7. joe90 7

    this guy

    • McFlock 7.1

      What I love is that the repugs are acting like the shitgibbon habitually uses Australian-English pronunciations, rather than Jersey Thuggese.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.1

      Considering the reports of their abuse of others we should probably be jailing them.

    • RedBaronCV 8.2

      That's pretty scary. I assume this is a civil case and to issue a no notice warrant ( instead of discovery?) or in the case of reputation concerns – external evidence – I would have though the potential financial losses would have to be pretty high and pretty certain because reputation damage loss relies on external spread so can be otherwise proved.

      To go further and run it over a dwelling which may contain other people who may be absolutely unrelated to the issue in question is appalling. I see the court appointed a lawyer so at some level they were not happy but still – at that level it's treating it more like a criminal offence. Would be interesting to hear from a few lawyers on this.

      I mean could you see say whaleoil or kiwi blog or here being issued with a no notice warrant.

      • lprent 8.2.1

        I mean could you see say whaleoil or kiwi blog or here being issued with a no notice warrant.

        It has been requested for here at least once (by Dermot aka Dimwit Nottingham in 2015) on what was technically a criminal charge. He’d run a private prosecution against APN NZ, ODT, Pete George and me. His claim was that ODT had reprinted, and that PG and myself had quoted from a court report article by the NZ Herald. He claimed that the original NZH article had caused contempt of court by violating the court orders on identity suppression (they hadn’t in my view).

        The judge turned down the search warrant request and I only found that it’d be requested with a published judicial decision made against Dimwit complaining about the judge turning it down amongst other matters.

        Needless to say, Dimwit lost the case because he managed a number of days in court as a private prosecution without establishing that APN NZ owned the NZ Herald (they didn’t directly – it is directly owned by NZME). He also managed to somehow not establish that I had anything to do with this site. I subsequently helped bankrupt him for unpaid court ordered costs from both the original trial and the appeal.

        However since 2009, this site has always encrypted the entirety of the site including its logs and backups. While I could eventually be forced to divulge access in a criminal trial, I’d really need to establish in a court that I’d actually need to as well – since it’d also open up access to other confidential information.

        • RedBaronCV

          Not good for you.

          I'd have thought judges would be pretty careful about issuing warrants without notice when it may be no more than civilian vigilantism. It also is likely to involve the party being ambushed having to pay legal fees which can multiply at the rate of … without any opportunity to answer in a less expensive situation or to get their costs and damages. It would be really interesting to see the judicial reasoning- otherwise they are facilitating some pretty extreme bullying

  8. joe90 9

    Mask V No Mask.

    The 15 counties where masks are mandatory have had new infections drop by 40%; the 90 counties where masks are optional had no fall.


    • dv 9.1

      That is a telling graph.

    • Incognito 9.2

      Deceiving graph. Mask-wearing counties (n=15) have cases drop from ca. 20 to 16 cases per 100,000 and in non-mask-wearing counties (n=90) cases stay around 9 per 100,000.

      “The no mask counties are flat,” Norman said. “There’s no activities that are going on — masks or otherwise — that account for or causing any improvement.”

      • Andre 9.2.1

        Incognito, any chance you could edit the image ref so that the second y-axis scale on the right for the blue line shows up?

        It's also worth noting the mask-mandate counties are the high-population counties, so the higher population density could well account for the higher initial infection rate:

        “The 15 counties that have mask mandates represent two-thirds of the population of the state of Kansas,” he said. “So yes, there’s 90 counties that account for the no mask mandate that reflect the other one-third.”

        • Incognito

          I’ve adjusted the image size; it did show up fine in the back-end, you see, and I rarely visit the front-end.

          I think the graph is tantalising but without knowing anything about confounding factors, I would not take it at face value. It reminds me of early comparisons between lock-down and non-lock-down regions/states/countries. The non-lock-down places looked they were doing quite well but this was largely because people were self-isolating at home. Mask-wearing may be an easy metric but it is likely to be a surrogate of a whole raft of behavioural differences and changes. That said, Dr Norman might genuinely believe that data.

          • Andre

            Thank you.

            Yeah, taken alone that data is just a whisper of a hint. But it is still something that's useful to help fill in a bigger picture.

      • joe90 9.2.2

        Urban V rural; the denser the population, the higher the transmission rate.

        “The 15 counties that have mask mandates represent two-thirds of the population of the state of Kansas,” he said. “So yes, there’s 90 counties that account for the no mask mandate that reflect the other one-third.”

        It shouldn’t take much convincing that the slope of the red line represents an improvement of the per capita COVID-19 cases over a four-week period, Norman said.

        “The no mask counties are flat,” Norman said. “There’s no activities that are going on — masks or otherwise — that account for or causing any improvement.”

        The 90 counties representing the blue line could see a dramatic downward slope in their case numbers if they required masks, Norman said.

  9. Cinny 10

    yes An excellent episode of The Listening Post last night. enlightened

    Murdoch's misinformation: COVID-19, China and climate change

    Manipulation via murdoch's media outlets in Aussie (Sky News etc) and the USA (FOX etc).

    But what's really interesting is Richard Gizbert's interview with Malcolm Turnball. The ex Aussie PM is now condemning the Murdoch's, even though malcolm was happy to rise to power on the coat tails of murdochs narratives. True to form turnball attempts to turn it around at the end and blame the murdochs control on Labour

    Opinions drive media sales far more than facts. Murdoch's so called news outlets should be labeled as opinion outlets.

  10. ScottGN 11

    Victoria’s Chief Medical Officer has reported today that the state’s Reproduction Rate of the virus has dropped below 1 for the first time since June, signs that the lockdown and mask wearing is working.

  11. Byd0nz 12

    I have been wonderin', especially after seeing plum in the mouth Bolger on Q +A, just when are they going to dig up the bones of (another plum in the mouth) Holyoake, wire them together and put him on TV to lend a hand to the National cause.

  12. Burying themselves in plums?
    At least Bolger wasn’t insisting on opening the borders. He seemed to disagree with Key and co.

  13. Sacha 14

    Louisa Wall profiled by Andrea Vance: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122339382/why-labour-mp-louisa-wall-refuses-to-know-her-place

    “I'm definitely aware that people don't like me. But I don't care about being liked. I just want to be respected.

    “Life is all about priorities… a lot of the areas that I choose to involve myself in I'm a disrupter. And at the end of the day, are people going to find me hard or not like what I say? Are they going to be oppositional to what I think?

    “Well, I'm very clear about the things I believe in, I'm principled. I'm not very political, to be honest.”

    • Goodgrief 14.1

      None of Louisa Wall's beliefs match any of mine so I won't be voting for her or, I suspect, any Party that has her in their fold.

    • Dennis Frank 14.2

      I wonder why you chose not to quote her abuse story? Inasmuch as it reflects negatively on Labour's credibility, it is more relevant to the election campaign.

      He burst into my room… he'd heard me on the radio, talking about marriage, equality, my role, and the fact that the party had endorsed it. For me, who the f… do you think you are, said I haven't got any authority, don't know my place. It’s quite layered, a senior male MP, and that is what he chose to do.

      As the chair of Labour's rainbow caucus… that was my responsibility. We'd said this was a priority for us. It was my actual job.”

      She took her complaint straight to the top. “My reaction was that I formally went to the leadership. I said that was unacceptable, I don't have to put up with us. I want it noted.

      “Nothing happened.” She now believes Parliament should appoint an independent commissioner to investigate bullying and harassment complaints against MPs, going against the grain of many of her colleagues.

      “There needs to be some accountability. We have to have something that protects those who don't have the power over those who do. Let’s put it to the vote, like we do legislation.”

      Goff would have been the leader when it happened. Perhaps the Labour patriarchs were in a post-Helen resurgent phase? Anyway, the moral of the story is that senior Labour male parliamentarians swearing at junior Labour female parliamentarians was okay nine years ago.

      • Sacha 14.2.1

        I found her comment about not being 'political' more revealing about why she may have run into trouble with her career choice. Someone else was bound to find allegations of abuse more appealing and here we are.

        • Dennis Frank

          Fair enough. Must be a generational perspective – it would never have occurred to me to use political in the narrow sense she apparently used it.

          I see her stance as admirable, moral and political in the wider sense. Someone who acts politically on the basis of principle is actually the ideal politician!

  14. joe90 15

    Anti-Netanyahu/corruption protests in Israel.

    Israelis despise Yair Netanyahu.

    • Red 16.1

      This Jacinda worship is getting a bit childish, scary and ridiculous. I doubt whoever was in charge would really have responded differently, likewise who ever wins I doubt Covid strategy will be much different going forward, hence an election on Covid only does nz a disservice

      • Andre 16.1.1

        Soimun was going to cut taxes and have a bonfire of regulations as the response. Don't you remember that?

        Since then we've had all kinds of stories about opening the border sooner and quicker for students and other various and sundries. So yeah, nah, National have persuaded me their Covid strategy would be quite different to the current strategy.

        • Red

          What one does and says in opposition and what one does in power are 2 different things. Labour are surly an example of that over the last 3 years Ignoring who would have done Covid better, I hope this election is not just a contest and swinging purses at 20 paces on Covid

          • Andre

            What one does and says in opposition and what one does in power are 2 different things.

            Well, yeah, but the usual pattern of that is to promise really difficult stuff that most people want, and then actually do at best half-assed renditions of something not quite what was promised that hardly anyone is happy with.

            The Nats went straight into promising half-assed renditions of obvious fuckups that hardly anyone wants right from the get-go.

          • Patricia Bremner

            surly is right!! Surely!!

      • Grafton Gully 16.1.2

        Jacinda worship gives power to Jacinda and if Labour wins the election her power will continue until something in the media that worshipers believe undermines it. As for what she will do with the power apart from controlling caucus and drugging the populace with kindness and compassion who knows ? I hope I live to see the corruption her power is leading to, as in the days of Muldoon and Lange. And the sequel.

      • Fireblade 16.1.3

        The National Party would have implemented limited restrictions instead of a full lockdown. They would have put business and wealth creation above everything else. Yes those things are important, but not at the expense of sickness and death. If National had power when Covid-19 hit, NZ would now be like Melbourne or worse. National were pushing for travel bubbles and the return of international students months ago and that would have been a total disaster. Looking to the future, I simply don't trust the National Party to manage the borders and keep NZ safe from Covid-19.

        The Labour-led government has worked through the complex issues of managed isolation and reacted quickly to address problems. Now is not the time to give that crucial responsibility to an inexperienced National/ACT government. The majority of voters understand this.

        The MOH and WHO give advice and recommendations, but the government makes the decisions and implements the heath response. Our PM and government made the correct decisions, protected people from Covid-19 and saved lives. They continue to do so. I trust Jacinda Ardern to keep us safe.

      • McFlock 16.1.4

        I mean, the proportion of world leadership that went hard at it from the get-go is close to fuckall, so good on you for assuming that NZ had not one but two main political parties prepared to do the hard yards early on and go for elimination.

        We need more optimists in the world.

        • observer

          It was stated National policy to bring in international students and open a bubble to Australia, months ago. National called for level 4 to be less strict, to move to level 3 earlier, and level 2 earlier. All well documented. It was even – crazy, but it's true – the view of National's current front bench that we should be out panic buying (see David Bennett). So … if we’re going to pretend they would have done the same, let's not rewrite history so soon, give it a year or two before we play that game.

          • McFlock

            Yup. But I like Red's optimism that they was only politicking, and that if the nats had been in government the NZ covid response would have been as good as what we actually did. No shortcuts on lockdown, no loosening of the borders, none of that.

            lol the world needs naive dreamers sometimes 🙂

      • Try Trump's USA. Bridges?
        You don’t mention Bloomfield’s admiration group?

    • mauī 16.2

      The wonderful, wonderful Elizabeth Ardern.

  15. Muttonbird 17

    Blimey, might have to vote Green this time. There's some great stuff in here targeting what I believe is the most fixable part of the intergenerational inequality spiral. It will reduce crime and increase NZ’s productivity.

    • deliver enough affordable rental homes to clear the social housing waiting list within five years
    • stimulate a sustainable non-profit rental sector by offering Crown financial guarantees for community providers to build new rental properties
    • remove funding and regulatory barriers to encourage community housing projects
    • expand the current Progressive Home Ownership and Warmer Kiwi Homes programmes
    • make renting fairer through regulating property managers, and introducing a rental Warrant of Fitness
    • overhaul the building code.

    You'd never see Twyford doing this sort of work for low-income and vulnerable communities.


    • Sacha 17.1

      Impressive stuff. Well thought out and totally achievable.


      The goal is to clear the social housing list – currently about 18,000 – within five years.

      The party wants to create a non-profit rental sector by offering Crown guarantees for Community Housing Providers, including iwi, to build new properties which can be rented out long-term.

      That would include $250 million in seed funding for "newly built community non-profit rental homes".

      The waiting list for social housing is at a record high, and in response, the Greens want government agencies to gear up and for Kāinga Ora's borrowing limit to be increased from $7.1 billion to $12b over the next five years "to allow it to scale up the Crown build programme to 5000 new homes a year".

      "This funding will be available to support Kāinga Ora to build homes directly, and to contract building to community housing providers."

      • Muttonbird 17.1.1

        Do you think Labour are deliberately allowing the Greens to fill this policy space?

        Both for the benefit of the Greens vote, and because any housing policy by Labour runs the risk of being laughed at?

        • Sacha

          Don't know but that does make sense. Also keeps Lab focused on middle-class priorities for their new Nat voters; easier to communicate in campaign.

          • weka

            it's certainly a more attractive theory than Labour deciding to run centrist policy of its own sake.

            • Sacha

              Oh I'd say that's going on as well, along with careful positioning statements by the PM so as not to scare off the Nat voters who have come across seeking stability and continuity.

              • weka

                they seem contradictory, Labour wanting a centrist position because they value it, Labour wanting the Greens to pull NZ left.

                • lprent

                  It is a low risk strategy for Labour.

                • Muttonbird

                  It doesn't seem accidental to me.

                  If co-ordinated, Labour and the Greens are together wanting to span the space between full left and the dreaded centre or swing vote. A truely broad church of appeal.

                  If deliberate this marks a very sophisticated and powerful collaboration and use of the MMP environment.

                  • Anne

                    Don't forget James Shaw and Jacinda Ardern have a personal friendship that goes back a long way. They will be talking privately.

          • lprent

            I'd say that you're right overall.

            The core of getting a persistent re-electable vote in NZ is to occupy the centre. Centre-left or centre-right. It means that you have in a MMP environment, enough mass in the house to push policies through. It is hard to do that if you're (say) the Alliance or Act. All that happens is that the people voting against you.

            But National is pretty clearly moving further right and away from the centre and was all the way through the Key years. That was why they allowed social issues with low investment like housing and immigration related issues of infrastructure to pile up using the GFC as an excuse.

            However it has become more explicit now with Bridges, Collins, and shortly Luxton. More of a property owners party as the actual number of property owners diminish and housing becomes more affordable. The number of economic 'liberals' identifiable in the party are diminishing as their MPs resign and the conservative side are steadily gaining influence.

            But Labour get creamed when they start trying to do anything that is too different or too experimental. More radical change has to come from the coalition parties who can cop the blame if it all turns to custard. The Centre party will concentrate on pushing through policy that deals with extant problems like finishing the CRL, fixing the court system, shifting immigration policies, fixing hospitals, and paying for super.

            I suspect that if we lose NZF (populist and centrist) then that will become the pattern.

          • I Feel Love

            Yes yes yes yes, that is exactly what is happening, Labour = "extreme centrist" (according to the media, ha!!) & Greens get to be "left", ironically it's only the anti Greens who so far have seen this, everyone else is hassling Labour for being 'meh', the RW are voting Labour to oust Greens, & Green supporters (Like me!) are quite happy with it all. I've never seen Labour as Left, I've said before, they are the only 'centrist' party.

    • Red 17.2

      I actually want the Green Party to stay in parliament, albeit without any real influence. My reasoning more so for democracy, just as the rwnj need some where to go and deserve representation as do the lwnj to keep them off the streets. One day however I would like to see a new real Green Party ( not watermelons) unhindered by square dancing and SJWs go into coalition with a national government as mused by county Jim is his latest book

      • weka 17.2.1

        how insulting, it was Morris Dancing no Square Dancing.

      • Muttonbird 17.2.2

        Quite what value single issue parties are to government I will never understand. You and the other blue-greens seem to want a green party having absolutely no position on anything other than the environment.

        • Red

          Not at all, our beef is the high jacking of the green label to mean you must be a socialist and overly woke This does more harm than good as it keeps the green agenda at the margins

          • Muttonbird

            Not that I've been that close to the Green party since the start but I can't remember them without a social conscience alongside their environmental conscience. They say the two are not separable.

            Also, you said 'woke' which immediately raises alarm bells with me as to your agenda.

            • Red

              That’s the issue the argument that to have social conscience you must be a socialist and similarly to be green you must be socialist as though it is some self evident truth or axiom

              • I Feel Love

                Greens will never hook up with the Nats, forget about it. Labour are more likely to. For the Greens to hook up with Nats, they'd have to get their supporters support, & basically be a patsy party like what happened to MP & ACT. Nats still don't get MMP, & long may that continue. (Look at Bergen, their Green Party leader became PM, with the equivelants of Labour & National (the 2 biggest parties) negotiating portfolios (the RW take finance, the LW social stuff, & all co operate). Hard work of course! But maybe we will mature in time. & fuck your 'woke' bullshit, look where it's got Shane Jones, hyuck!!!

            • xanthe

              "Not that I've been that close to the Green party since the start"

              Well I have and red is correct IMHO. What the greens attempt to ram thru as social justice is along way away from just and is not founded on environmental wisdom. They have poisoned the brand and we all are paying the price of not having a coherent voice for the environment.

              I do not see a way forward for the Greens at this time

              • Muttonbird

                That's fine xanthe, social issues are not a priority for you, but they are for the Green Party and have been for some time.

                They are a stronger voice in parliament because of this.

                You view social issues as "poison". I have to say that is a real shame and it makes me wonder what this forum offers you if that is truely the case.

                • xanthe

                  dont be a wanker mutts

                  No where do i say or imply that social issues are not a priority to me!

                  Social issues are in fact very important to me. I am deeply offended when i see them leveraged in ignorance in a polarizing manner for political gain.

                  Anyone who goes into this area needs to do so in a careful, informed manner.

                  Your bullying response to me founded on misrepresentation fairly sums up where the greens went off the rails.

          • observer

            There is a non-left "green" party to vote for. They got a whole heap of publicity when they were launched. Their leader was all over the media. Remember?

            The only problem is that absolutely nobody wants to vote for them. They register zero in the polls. Not 1%. Absolute zero.

            So where are these mystery "green" voters?

            • Red

              They are in the centre , National and Labour, but can’t say they are green The Green Party should be ashamed of itself they have appropriated the word green with a hard left agenda, a big no no in this day and age. As a result green issue are pushed to the margin

              [Fixed another typo in your e-mail address. Please be more careful next time, thanks]

              • Incognito

                [Fixed another typo in your e-mail address. Please be more careful next time, thanks]

                • I Feel Love

                  "Hard Left", ha!!! Extreme Centre, eye roll. The RW may have a social conscience, they just don't wanna pay for it. Whereas the LW (hard or soft), want to socialise the cost, because we all pay in the long run. Nothing wrong with a bit of Morris Dancing or photos with unicorns, BFD.

              • observer

                That is completely false. National MPs have been rushing to call themselves "Blue-Green", and they signed up to the zero carbon bill. Now, they are nowhere near green enough for me personally, but that's beside the point: they claim to be green.


              • Stuart Munro

                I don't think I'd describe the Greens as hard anything, except perhaps hardworking – certainly not hard Left – perhaps Te Papa must run a sample gulag exhibit so that the ignorant may learn to distinguish truth from rhetorical excess.

          • solkta

            People are part of the environment. It is your idiotic reductionist thinking that is the problem here.

            • Incognito

              Nah, Red is just angling for another long/permanent ban; it didn’t take long at all.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.2.3

        I actually want the Green Party to stay in parliament, albeit without any real influence.

        While I want the Greens in parliament with power hence being a member.

        My reasoning more so for democracy

        No, its a denial of democracy. Having people without power is, ipso facto, preventing those people being able to engage in the democratic process.

        One day however I would like to see a new real Green Party

        No you don't. You want a Green Party that does as its told.

        We have a real green Party – one that's willing to stand on its principles. And a party that stands on its principles will never go into coalition with National because they have none.

      • Sacha 17.2.4

        I look forward to a party of the right that is worthy of a coalition with the Greens. Maybe liberal remnants of the Nats after they shed the rural rump.

    • mikesh 17.3

      With solar panels, perhaps?

  16. kester macfarlane 18


    Leighton Baker, New Conservative Leader

    © New Conservative, Authorised by Kevin Stitt, 35 Lenore Rd, Mangere

    During the early morning of Saturday 8th August 2020, two political billboards for your political party, New Conservative were illegally attached on our properties roadside fence.

    The fence is more than two metres inside our surveyed boundary.

    Landowner permission to display your election signage was not requested.

    You or your agents not only erected your party’s billboards illegally on our private property, you/they interfered with and then actually relocated existing signage on our fence to maximise your party billboards visibility and field of vision.

    We are taking legal action against the New Conservative Party on the following counts:

    New Conservative Party trespassed onto our property.

    New Conservative Party illegally attached two political billboards onto our fence.

    New Conservative Party by illegally attaching two political billboards onto our fence have insinuated by association that we are supportive of your Party’s philosophy.

    New Conservative Party by illegally attaching two political billboards onto our fence have embarrassed, tarnished and diminished our reputation and standing in our community.

    Your promotional material states that the New Conservative Party believes in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional family values and a strong national identity.

    By trespassing, erecting obnoxious political billboards, interfering and rearranging existing signage, insinuating our beliefs are similar to your party’s and embarrassing and blemishing our standing and reputation in our community hardly adheres to your claimed beliefs.

    In the last 24 hour period since the New Conservative Party illegally attached the two political billboards onto our fence, we have had numerous people who have aggressively enquired about our political and moral beliefs.

    We have a full range of photographic evidence which we will be supplying our legal council.

    We are taking legal action and will be suing New Conservative accordingly.

    170-174 Stafford Drive

    Ruby Bay, Mapua

    Nelson 7005

    [lprent: I’m letting this comment through despite our usual policy on open contact via the page. At least it doesn’t have any email addresses of phone numbers in it. If someone knows the the New Conservatives, I’d suggest letting them know this ASAP because the Electoral Commission will appreciate this about as much as the fence owners do. ]

    • Red 18.1

      I am on the fence on this one

      • Muttonbird 18.1.1

        The NCs billboards ask a question, then answer, "No Thanks". I'm looking for a way to easily change it to read:

        New Conservative?

        No Thanks!

      • bwaghorn 18.1.2

        New conservative, ain't that an oxymoron

    • Draco T Bastard 18.2

      Your promotional material states that the New Conservative Party believes in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional family values and a strong national identity.

      And the reason why conservatives like those things is because what they really don't like are rules that hold them to account, rules that prevent them doing whatever they like no matter how much damage it does to anything or anyone else.

      And the proof of that lies in their illegal and immoral actions as stated above.

  17. ScottGN 20

    Newshub is reporting that Brownlee claims the Nats are on ‘about’ 40%. Nothing to back the claim up of course. He also says he doesn’t trust polls anymore and then goes on to say that TVNZ’s poll in Northland is really bad news for NZFirst. You couldn’t make it up!


    • Robert Guyton 20.1

      Gerry spreads himself like lard across the bread political.

    • McFlock 20.2

      He started using "about" with that level of error as a teenage boy because he thought the six inch ruler was way too long.

    • Pingao 21.1

      … well if the unthinkable happened and the Nats got back in I guess it wouldn't be long before we'd need those masks …

    • lprent 21.2

      Evidently Gerry only looks at the local news and ignores the news from the outside of NZ. How else could you explain this…

      As New Zealand marks 100 days without community transmission of Covid-19, National Party deputy leader Gerry Brownlee says the Government’s warning of an approaching second wave is “very puzzling”.

      There are about 3 other statements he made just in that one article (several of which appeared to be repeats) that tend to indicate that he knows nothing about Auckland politics and has a possible symptoms of a disease of age.

      • ScottGN 21.2.1

        He certainly repeated Judith’s assertion that Ngaro will beat Twyford in Te Atatu. But along with that came a tacit admission that they are unlikely to get enough of a party vote to get their 30th ranked candidate into parliament?

  18. Stuart Munro 22

    From time to time the Atlantic has rather good long form articles – this one's on policing in America – though the observation on incremental change is not without merit. Where change is needed, it is often urgent for somebody.

  19. I Feel Love 23

    I been seeing little bits of this story popping up, protests in Labanon, call for early elections, pissed off people sick of inept leadership, a developing story I'd imagine


  20. Public and shared transport is the future. So glad this money isn’t going to More Lanes™️


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