Open mike 09/10/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 9th, 2023 - 67 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

67 comments on “Open mike 09/10/2023 ”

  1. pat 1

    Politicians being politicians….

    “They were robbing resources from symptomatic patients in order to do the screening.”

    Could this problem get worse because of the promises by Chrises Luxon and Hipkins?

    Otago Daily Times columnist Elspeth McLean wrote last week: “It would be unethical to expand the programme to 50-year-olds if the system could not cope in a timely manner with the extra lab testing, colonoscopies, surgery and other treatments which might be needed.”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/why-cancer-pledge-will-be-hard-to-keep

  2. Tiger Mountain 2

    Labour where are you? this is positive messaging–grab the narrative–week in light of Baldrick’s “second Election” scaremongering.

    As Mike the Lefty said here yesterday…
    “Labour needs to seize on this to show that there will be no such problems if you vote centre-left, WE get along well enough to lead the country, the rabble on the right don't so why would you vote for them?”

    Chris Hipkins, Carmel Sepuloni, James Shaw, Marama Davidson, Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa Packer one way or another need to present and project–We can work together! on various media channels, and quickly.

  3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

    Chris Bishflap Bishop sounds the Nat alarm : aooooer…aooooer !

    National's campaign chairperson Chris Bishop spoke over the weekend of a "very real and growing possibility" of a hung Parliament either as a result of National, ACT and New Zealand First being unable to agree on a deal for a coalition government, or an even a split of seats between the left and right.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499718/live-election-2023-updates-all-the-latest-developments-on-9-october

    The Man himself..responds

    Winston Peters has hit back at National’s latest advertising campaign aimed at scaring people off voting for his New Zealand First party.

    At a campaign meeting in Masterton today, he said suggestions in a story – quoting National’s campaign manager Chris Bishop – that there could be a second election were "a lie".

    Winston….Its also the Media ! Gonna have another Inquiry (along with the Covid one )

    He railed against the news media, with specific references made to Herald on Sunday columnist Liam Dann, his brother and RNZ Morning Report host Corin Dann, RNZ political editor Jane Patterson, Q&A host Jack Tame, Newshub Nation host Rebecca Wright, Stuff journalist Andrea Vance and Post editor Tracy Watkins.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/its-lie-peters-rails-against-national-ads-and-news-media

    Anyone think this coalition of chaos…can run NZ ? (apart from to destruction..)

    We must Vote Left !

    • Tiger Mountain 3.1

      That Winston meeting sounds a good one to have missed going by the ODT report.

      Do the Nats have figures the rest of us don’t–Grant Robertson was quite good on RNZ saying Mr Luxon’s political inexperience is showing and the Natzos are panicking.

      Cap’n Chippy needs to get on board with a unity message pronto–Labour/Green/TPM can work together. Though he probably won’t.

      • alwyn 3.1.1

        It really isn't whether Labour, the Greens and TPM can work together. To get a majority it would have to be those 3 plus Winston's lot. Just imagine what they would have to offer Winnie. Deputy PM, plus Finance and Foreign Affairs?

        • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1

          Lab 29 Gr 15 TPM 4 would avoid that Alwyn.

          We would get a stable and compassionate government.

          • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1.1.1

            yes

          • mikesh 3.1.1.1.2

            On those figures (presumed to be percentages) it would be a hung parliament.

            • alwyn 3.1.1.1.2.1

              I would assume he meant seats. If they are percentages I would have to say that I think he is over-egging things by about 4 for Labour, 3 for the Green party and 2 for TPM.

              Still, dreams are free.

        • observer 3.1.1.2

          Luxon hasn't ruled out offering Winston any of those jobs. He's far closer to handing out the bribes and baubles than Hipkins.

          Of course Luxon could make it clear at any time that won't happen, that a "deal" could mean confidence and supply, but not Cabinet. He could rule that out, today. He could show leadership, a spine. If only he had one.

          Winston has got the message. He can name his price, because Luxon's prepared to pay it.

        • gsays 3.1.1.3

          Winston for Speaker!

          • Anne 3.1.1.3.1

            Well now, that would make life interesting.surprise

            • Mike the Lefty 3.1.1.3.1.1

              The Speaker has to be someone that (most) members at least respect, if not like.

              Apart from his own party, how many MPs could HONESTLY say they respect him?

        • Barfly 3.1.1.4

          Policy Alwyn, policy – in case you haven''t noticed while NZF is very socially conservative their economic policy has always been much further left than National let alone ACT.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.2

        Yes, it's true that Luxon's unprecendented lack of parliamentary experience as Nat leader would be even more cruelly exposed if he became PM. In 3 years time he will have doubled his stint in the house and so could be ready to take Winston on board.

        It's not that there won't be points of disagreement between Labour, TPM and the Greens – rather that these would pale into insignificance compared to a NAct-NZF "lots of moving parts" "limbo land" "hung parliament" "second election" fiasco.

  4. Ad 4

    If Matt Gaetz and Jordan are quite prepared to take out the Speaker, and remain in lock step with Trump right throughout his trials and convictions, we have the start of a new party that breaks away from the Republicans whether it's official or not.

    I can't think of a splitter outcome that isn't good for the Democratic Party.

    • SPC 4.1

      Jordan as Speaker means that they have taken control of the GOP, the question then is, will a Democratic Republican Party be formed or not?

      The Desi watching Fox News Expose

      The GOP adopted a southern strategy (Nixon-Hoover line) and it worked, now the GOP is the walking dead version of its former self, court of Saint James Crow has manifestly risen (build a wall and they shall not come).

  5. SapphireGem 5

    This article about Shane Reti making unauthorised emergency department visits sounds interesting, but I can't open it as it's paywalled. Might be of interest to some:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/how-health-nz-responded-to-dr-shane-retis-19-unauthorised-ed-visits/DZJLGETFWNF3TCWKO6LQMEJ6EU/

    • AB 5.1

      Yeah – paywalled. Hope another media outlet follows up. Although Reti occasionally talks sense, I have always found something uncomfortable in his manner – a sort of condescending paternalism perhaps. He has always stuck the "Dr" on his billboards – prompting much hilarity and derision in our car when we drive past.

      • Tiger Mountain 5.1.1

        A classic Māori raised in Mormonism, who seems only dimly aware of his heritage as it might relate to 2023 society.

        In Whangārei when the 37 dwelling Puriri Park state house development (since completed) was proposed he instinctively sided with the nearby predominantly middle class pākehā Maunu property owners actively opposing it, rather than the people needing housing.

      • Belladonna 5.1.2

        Hmm. But a good bit more relevant to his professed area of expertise (Health) than 'Dr' David Clark, previous Labour Health Minister (whose doctorate is in theology)

        • AB 5.1.2.1

          It's not the relevance or irrelevance that matters – it's the self-importance of sticking it on the billboard.

          • Belladonna 5.1.2.1.1

            Clearly you find it cringy. But you are not the target market.
            No doubt we'll see whether he's re-elected in Whangarei or not.

            I find it more cringy to have MPs who are not medical doctors referred to as ‘Dr’ in Parliament and in official press statements. It always seems disingenuous to me.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.2.1.1.1

              I find it more cringy to have MPs who are not medical doctors referred to as ‘Dr’ in Parliament and in official press statements. It always seems disingenuous to me.

              Cringy maybe, but also a matter of fact, so not disingenuous, imho, unless the title is used to falsely assert some clinical expertise.

              Women, Own Your ‘Dr.’ Titles [28 June 2018]
              For many years, I was not sure whether it was worth it. But nonetheless, I remain proud of my Ph.D. because I persisted and completed it.

              So I was fascinated to discover that some viewed the degree not as a sign of expertise but as a provocation, a pretension.

              It’s not just about women: The disturbing tendency to dismiss academic and especially scientific expertise as bias, or elitism, is at high tide, and climbing.

              For centuries, the voices of women have been muted, discounted and minimized. Our right to speak has been questioned, our power undermined, our authority mocked. The cultural underpinnings of this run deep in church and state and still erupt grotesquely online. We are regularly told to apologize, to shrink, to shut up.

              So don’t. You don’t need a title to speak. But if you do have one, use it. Find your voice, and raise it. Stake your authority, and state it. Don’t recoil. Don’t back down.

              Sometimes authority should be worn lightly. But sometimes it should be brandished like a torch.

              Should female doctors hide their title? Why #immodestwomen say no [18 June 2018]
              Doctors on Twitter have been speaking out about the pressure they face to be coy about their academic status – and this has provoked yet more calls for them to be modest

              My title is Dr. Fern Riddell, not Ms. or Miss Riddell. I have it because I am an expert, and my life and career consist of being that expert in as many different ways as possible. I worked hard to earn my authority, and I will not give it up to anyone.

    • Belladonna 5.2

      Here it is archived

      https://archive.ph/qpAQB

      Easy enough to go to https://archive.ph/ and paste in the URL of the initial article.

      • SapphireGem 5.2.1

        Thanks very much Belladona for sharing this – didn't realise I could get it through this pathway. It's good to know this.

    • Belladonna 5.3

      TBH, I don't really have an issue with this kind of 'unauthorized' visit.
      If you want to know what's actually going on, you don't announce your visit in advance, and allow all problems to be artificially smoothed away – just for that event. And Reiti is a practicing GP – who thoroughly understands patient confidentiality; as well as being able to assess what is 'normal' business, and what is crisis.

      The objections from Health NZ seem to be bureaucratic (they feel they are going to look bad, because there are obvious problems), with a fig-leaf thrown to patient confidentiality (I can flat-out guarantee there is no patient confidentiality in an open ED area – and Reti has never released any information which would identify any specific patient). Their almost blatant threats to the ambulance service "As a funder, we must have confidence you have robust processes in place to ensure integrity and political neutrality in your operations." – are even worse.

      The question should be.

      • What harm arose from Reti's visits? None.
      • Did he as an MP (and possible future Health Minister) gain valuable information on the real operational crunch that hospital EDs are facing? Yes.
      • Was there any breach of patient confidentiality? None.

      Given the very poor reporting of health statistical measures since Health NZ has been formed – a much greater issue that the Health NZ bosses should spend their time on resolving – it may be that this is the only effective way he had of determining how bad the problems are (albeit in a snapshot format)

      The good news is – that since Reti has done it – the way is open for Labour/Green MPs (with appropriate qualifications) to do the same thing, the next time they are in opposition.

  6. Peter 6

    He is an awkward individual in the environment but his skin colour and medical background give him essential collateral in the environment.

    Of course part of that, like National’s transport history in Northland, is allowing them to be as hypocritical as they like and blithely ignore their appalling record in the North.

  7. Drowsy M. Kram 7

    Ending Poverty Together – Party Vote Green

    https://www.greens.org.nz/ending_poverty_together

    Get Our Country Unearned Income Back on Track – Party Vote National

    Potential Opportunities for Property Investors [6 October 2023]
    A change in government could see more opportunities open up for property investors in New Zealand, with adjustments to the Brightline Test, removal of the foreign buyer ban, and a reinstatement of interest deductibility just some of the policies being considered. Find out how these possible changes could reshape the property market landscape and what the overall impact would be for property investors.

    Election 2023 has been fought in the shadow of a pandemic which continues to define so many policy issues [8 October 2023]

    Capitalist Parties Promise Sweeping Attacks On Working Class In New Zealand Election [8 October 2023]
    On the domestic front, Labour and National are downplaying the extreme social crisis, highlighted by deepening poverty and inequality.

  8. Corey 8

    Isn't it hilarious how the "sensible" people in Labour always think the best mmp strategy is to abandon and attack its left flank in order to fight national for the center and shrug it's shoulders

    BUT everytime Labour has tried this strategy, the left go to the greens and Labour drops below 30% and the centerist voters write it off and vote for National.

    Labour is a coalition that needs to excite the left base as well as go after the center, without the left base onside you don't have the polling support to win over the center and you don't have the volunteers to get the message out.

    Ardern got this, after 96 Clark also got this, Goff, Shearer, Little and Hipkins tried the center only strategy and all got Labour in the 20s.

    The amount of times "sensible" Labour politicians have torpedoed popular social democratic policies for unpopular nothings is insane, who did hipkins and Co think they were gonna win brownie points with by torpedoing the budget reforms? Certainly wasn't anyone Labour could have won over.

    I'm not expecting or wanting corbynism just basic soc dem reforms, Labour should be throwing everything and the kitchen sink instead its offering pathetic nothings that voters would have to wait 2-3 years to actually see.

    People vote for the left when the left is energetic and hopeful and makes them think things will get better, this entire campaign has been Labour saying change is impossible and things are only going to get worse. Not a vote winner.

    Without both the left and center flank working together Labour always finds it self in the 20's.

    Labour can blame National and it's donors all it wants, the fact is kiwis gave the left 60% three years ago and Labour 50.3% and is polling at 26% today, a party that loses that much support has to do some soul searching because it's not just the right, a lot of it is labour's failure to read the mood of the country three years ago and deliver on what the country wanted.

    Id like to be hopeful that Labour would be able to do some serious soul searching about where Labour went wrong following Saturday, but it's impossible because you cannot speak freely or even constructively criticize Labour because from the grassroots up half the party fancies themselves a future pm.

    When everyone thinks they are a poli in waiting it's impossible to have a serious critical conversation about the party's failure when every second member is sucking up and kissing arse and towing the party line in hopes of being on a community board or getting a low list ranking, anyone critical of policies, candidates or stances is to be shunned.

    Unless the party changes. Labour will learn nothing.

    If you look at the 65 people on the 2020s list next to none are regular people, they are all academics, lawyers, technocrats, civil servents and party hacks who climbed the ladder.

    Only a few of these people are from a working class background and even fewer are able to communicate with the working class, middle class or just regular people.

    Labour needs less lawyers, academics and technocrats and more builders, tech professionals, bogans and factory workers as candidates and less robots.

    If Labour wants to be the party of regular people it needs to have regular people as candidates, not robots or professional politicians.

    Again it tells you all you need to know about who the caucus of a party is when given unprecedented nation building support during a health crisis, a housing crisis and an inequality and poverty crisis, the party spent it's entire political capital on internal bureaucratic restructures of govt agencies.

    If that's the priority then who do this lot think they were governing for?

    Thanks for reading

    No more long rants from me.

    • Craig H 8.1

      Very good points.

    • Tiger Mountain 8.2

      Very well written and analysed Corey. I like your point about where the political capital went particularly, and it really illustrates the grip of neo liberal administrative culture.

      The first few months of COVID when public health was gloriously put before private profit showed what can be achieved when the political will is there.

      Re this election, essentially if the PM had not made his Cap’n’s calls, imo NZ Labour would have stayed well into the 30s with good will from many working class people for a wealth and capital gains tax, incremental free dental, Basic Income, and the rest of the list many of us support. Robbo and David Parker are hardly radicals and for them to not be happy shows the fractures in Caucus/NZ Labour HQ. Mr Hipkins was anointed not elected by members and affiliates. The rules allowed similar with the Jacinda Ardern and Andrew Little switch due to the time period involved prior to the 2017 General Election.

      Various polls and surveys showed the support for wealth tax.
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979367/new-survey-shows-widespread-support-for-taxes-on-capital-gains-and-windfall-profits

      Some points, having been around the Labour Party for years via unions and various left parties.
      –Caucus, or the “Parliamentary Wing” in reality has precedence over ordinary members
      –A number of left leaning members were purged in the 1980s leaving the party short on ideologues of a social democratic world view
      –Neo Blairism rules because of the main Parliamentary party monetarist/neo lib consensus, whom ever wins, the Reserve Bank Act, State Sector Act and so on survive. We need a circuit breaker, and grass roots organisation for 2026.

      And, I acknowledge the literally hundreds of incremental and other useful reforms made by this Labour Govt.–but what they missed was the key strategic point–what is the strategic goal?–alright, I will tell you–preventing a NActFirst Govt.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.2.1

        who is the main enemy?–alright, I will tell you–a NActFirst Govt.

        How about we save the leg chewing till after eh?

    • SPC 8.3

      The Greens have become a social democratic party because their environment policy required such a party to exist to enact it and Labour stopped being a social democratic party in 1984.

      Anderton realised it, all Clark and Ardern did was inherit power after 9 years of National government – by which time Labour centrism appeared to be social democratic light.

      Even Hipkins mark 2 would appear a social democrat after 9 years of NACT.

      For decades the only country in the OECD without a CGT and or estate tax, and the middle class are considering voting in a government that wants to give the fingers to the rest of the world on UNDRIP and the Paris Accord – new white broderbond gated community of the South Pacific sans and plans for a Treaty referendum …fixing in a class system for their children to inherit along with the consequences of inaction (21st C infrastructure and GW action)

      • SPC 8.3.1

        new white broderbond gated community of the South Pacific sans Maori as a people and thus plans for a Treaty referendum

  9. Binders full of women 9

    Totally agree. I can't remember the last Labour worker. Mike Moore? Chippy, Grant, Jacinda, student union to PM's staffer. BTW has Nanaia given up? Is it true she's in Spain. Cunliffe pretended to be a worker with his Brotown accent, but he was more Goldman Sachs, or Harvard or something.

    • Belladonna 9.1

      From her FB posts, Mahuta seems to be campaigning hard in the Waikato – several 'on the road' shots between gigs. If she doesn't win the seat, she's out of Parliament – and I believe that the TPM candidate is pushing her hard.

  10. Roy Cartland 10

    Honestly, where do they dig these idiots up from? (It’s another ACT candidate.)

    ACT leader David Seymour says a social media post from one of his candidates was a "very stupid thing to do."

    Tim Newman, the party's Dunedin candidate, liked a comment on LinkedIn which said "extremist Maori might be getting expelled to the Moa Strip if they keep targeting New Zealand citizens", adding a comment himself that it was "hilarious."

    Live Election 2023 updates: All the latest developments on 9 October https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499718/live-election-2023-updates-all-the-latest-developments-on-9-october

  11. SapphireGem 11

    For those who use social media- I recommend changing your profile picture to reflect your voting choice (if you are comfortable doing so). I did this a few hours ago and have already had two private messages from people I know only peripherally, telling me that seeing the Labour logo has made them decide to vote Labour. It sounds silly but something tiny can sway people and at this point, every single vote matters. My two cents, for what it’s worth.

    • Roy Cartland 11.1

      Any idea on how this works? I just can't imagine voting because of a logo. I wonder if it's something to do with being enabled or emboldened once you see other people you respect doing it? The same with hoardings I guess, if it works, it works.

    • Belladonna 11.2

      If you don't feel comfortable announcing your party support to all and sundry – you could also change it to an "I have voted" icon.

  12. James Thrace 12

    Imagine Green/TPM/NZ1 as a minority govt with 35 seats and Labour impliedly offering C&S on budget, but not part of any formal coalition or agreement. On current numbers, total is about 67 seats… none of the aforementioned 3 parties have ruled out working with each other

    Under MMP there’s no reason why Lab/Nat have to be at the head of the table… 🤨

    • Roy Cartland 12.1

      Actually, I'd like to see that, just for the seething outrage from NACT! And Labour, presumably.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 12.1.1

        Are you and "others" wanting seething outrage from Labour?

        Fucks sake all through this Ive tried to keep with Left Solidarity. Some make me wonder…

  13. barry 13

    So no result will be registered for the electorate of Port Waikato and a by-election will be held at a later time.

    That means that the MMP proportionality will not include that electorate, and the party that wins it (presumably National) will get an extra seat.

    So the new MMP election strategy is to register terminally ill people as independent candidates for all your safe seats, in the hope that some of them die between the start of advance voting and election day?

    Surely voting can continue and if a dead candidate wins then a by-election is triggered (after MMP proportionality is allocated?

    • Cricklewood 13.1

      Yeah, basically its going to result in an extra mp for the Nats. Makes a big difference to the permatations and it makes it harder for the left to win

    • Westykev 13.2

      What an insensitive fuck you are. Have some fucken dignity.

      • Anne 13.2.1

        You've taken the comment the wrong way.
        It was purely a hypothetical to make a strong point and no-one imagines for a moment that any political party would entertain such a scenario.

    • Belladonna 13.3

      Surely voting can continue and if a dead candidate wins then a by-election is triggered (after MMP proportionality is allocated?

      Clearly, it legally can not. If you wish to propose a law change to make this the case – I suggest you contact your local MP.

      In the meantime – Good Lord! Some level of sensitivity to the friends, family and colleagues of the dead man would seem to be called for. Making up a conspiracy theory out of thin air, over someone's death, is deeply distasteful.

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