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Open mike 10/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 10th, 2019 - 77 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

77 comments on “Open mike 10/12/2019 ”

  1. Jenny How to get there 1

    Thunberg says 'our voices' being heard but not translating into action

    Teenage activist Greta Thunberg says although the voices of young climate strikers are being heard — politicians are still not taking action.


    Case in point:

    “The Zero Carbon Act does not introduce any policies to actually cut emissions but rather sets a framework”


    • Peter chch 1.1

      Well maybe she should lead by example and cease her constant Twitter and Facebook posts. Social media has now been identified as a significant factor in climate change. Apart from the power consumed, the heat of the servers used worldwide is a significant factor.

      Human made climate change is real, but screaming crazy hypocrits abusing people without offering solutions just turns people away from the crisis.

      • weka 1.1.1

        "screaming crazy hypocrits abusing people without offering solutions"

        Who are you referring to there?

        If using the internet causes CC and stopping using it is a valid solution, then presumably your posting here means you don't want to stop CC?

        • Peter chch

          My social media footprint is tiny, unlike prolific professional users like Thurnberg, who is obviously who I was referring to.

          Additionally, I dont make a career out of telling others what to do and throw tantrums to get attention.

          • weka

            You appear to be quite the idiot then. For one, Thunberg does offer solutions, they're central to her whole position. The other is that reducing GHG emissions has to happen across the board. NZ is well into overshoot for its ecological footprint. Nothing to do with Thunberg, everything to do with you and me.

            The crazy slur is sign of someone who is ignorant of neurodiversity but also who can't formulate an argument and so seeks to undermine the credibility of the person they are critiquing. I'm being rude here because I'm sick of the low level of political argument from some.

    • McFlock 1.2

      I reckon she's underestimating her effect. According to Clarkson, she has managed to "kill the car show" and stopped young people being interested in cars.

      I think the phrase most suited to his claim is "ok, boomer" lol

  2. Sacha 2

    No signs of life, 8 people still on Whakaari White Island, volcanic activity at level 3. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/405170/white-island-eruption-eight-still-missing-police-believe-there-are-no-survivors

  3. Sanctuary 3

    NZ Helicopter pilots – Kiwi sangfroid, daring do and flying skill at its best.

    • Or maybe just crazy…..

      "…based on figures from 2011 to 2017, the fatality rate for commercial helicopter pilots per 1000 workers on an annual basis was 75 times the national average for all workplaces, compared with 44 times the average for forestry, which was the next worst workplace."

      • Sanctuary 3.1.1

        Sometimes it helps to be a little crazy, like when putting your slick onto a literally hot LZ to rescue people…

        I have an in-law who was a chopper deer shooter back in the days of the good ol’ boys down south, and while they not as crazy these days as back then I believe the spirit lives on in NZ helicopter pilots.

      • James 3.1.2

        Depends on the industry. A lot of commercial pilots are using little under powered ones chasing cattle or spraying which have a far higher crash rate.

        eurocopters etc that are used in higher end tourism have a very low crash rate.

        which is why I chose never to fly in the small helicopters and never let the kids do so either.

        most of them don’t want to die – so are far from crazy.

  4. pat 4

    "The authors warn this vast water tower – a term they use to describe the role of water storage and supply that mountain ranges play to sustain environmental and human water demands downstream – is unlikely to sustain growing pressure by the middle of the century when temperatures are projected to rise by 1.9C (35.4F), rainfall to increase by less than 2%, but the population to grow by 50% and generate eight times more GDP."


    "Citing recent research by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Davies said 75% of high-altitude snow and ice would be retained if global warming could be kept within 1.5C. However, 80% would be lost by 2100 if the world continued on a path of business as usual."

    Where will the world place 1.9 billion migrants?

  5. Cricklewood 5

    Unfortuantly the real elephant in the room is that many areas of the planet are over populated, such over population has only been made possible by cheap energy in the form of oil and we all know what that is doing to the climate.

    • Peter chch 5.1

      Agree effect of population growth but that has not been enabled by cheap oil, but eradication of many diseases through better hygiene and science. And what is the solution? China tried one child policy and it failed miserably. Roman Catholicism and its anti birth control stance being banned would be effective but not going to happen anytime soon.

      • Cricklewood 5.1.1

        Sure hygiene has played a role, but without oil and industrialization there is no way you could feed cities of millions or support populations in the millions on a relativly small landmass.

        In essence oil has allowed vast areas of the planet to support populations far greater than local resources would otherwise allow.

      • greywarshark 5.1.2

        If one looks at death notices with all the family descendants named, do family history searches with all the family descendants named down generations, look at local histories, the descendants still alive, from two people – back to the great-great-grandparents, is massive.

        It goes relatively slowly – say two having six living to adulthood who become the great grandparents, three of them having families (three didn't, killed in war, never married). We now have better medical care so babies don't die, and old people can live till 80+ and not late 70's as previously. Parents of the present generation can become great-(great?) grandparents while still living.

        Say if the original parents, now elderly, had had four children who went on to reproduce, but limited their families to the extent that each generation had only two living children. Which would be reasonable one would think. I can't work it out in my head – so have attempted below to see the multiplying numbers.

        Year 1 – Originating 2 people both aged 20,
        By years 11-21 have 4 children (6 in current family),

        Years 21 to 31- 4 young adults average 1 child = 4 (10 in current family; 4 reproducing and 4children/2adults),

        Years 31-41 four young adults repeat x one = 4 (14 in current family; 4 reproducing and 8children/2adults ),

        (Four young adults have had average of only 2 children each).

        Years 41 – 51 children of young adults start having babies at 20 years still averaging two babies. In first decade (20 in current family; 8 reproducing and 8 children/4 adults),
        Years 51 – 61 repeat (28 in current family; 8 reproducing with 16 children/4adults)

        Year 62 the elders die at an old age of around 80, leaving a family of 26, plus the partners of their children who fathered and mothered the additional babies for each generation.

        • alwyn

          You have to do the calculation properly. You can't just talk about 2 becoming 26 or whatever. You gave to count in all the partners parents, gran parents etc as being the founding stock.

          If we use your method for a case where a couple has 2 children. They marry and each has 2 children. The a third generation does the same. You would say that the family grew from 2 to 4 to 8 to 16. What has really happened is that the final generation of 16 actually have 16 parents, and 16 grandparents and 16 great grandparents. The number of people in each generation is not increasing at all.

        • Ad

          A quick trawl through the NZStats site will give you accurate tracking of the relative strength of replacement cohorts.

          No need to guess this stuff.

          • greywarshark

            It is interesting that no one wants to think for themselves. You have to follow a set formula that the state has set up. How do you know they have done that correctly – they want to blind the unknowing with science. And to get put down by the ones who have the training and who are in the know, that stops the ordinary person from trying to think for themselves, and many don't try.

            I wasn't guessing Ad I followed a process based on stated factors and showed how even a modestly fertile family proliferates.

            As to Alwyn, fluff around, find fault, as you want. I couldn't care less about your opinions.

            • Ad

              Which bits of the NZStats population forecast methodology do you disagree with and why?

              The ones you are looking for were released in March this year called the "New Zealand Cohort Life Tables".There are pretty well-rehearsed statistical pathways about replacement in there.

      • Gabby 5.1.3

        Cos of the rocketing birthrate in Italy right Peetee.

  6. ianmac 6

    For those interested in the Matthews Auditor General issue yesterday, Kim Hill had an interview with him this morning.

    The critical thing is that fraud was never raised with Mathews until he was tipped about the previous fraud conviction which had been withheld by court and Joanne Harrison had changed her name. He then acted in accordance with the rules and she was "uncovered." So the "whistle blowers" were actually complaining about non-compliance of invoicing, and not fraud.


    • gsays 6.1

      Isn't invoice non-compliance a white collar euphemism for fraud?

      In the preamble to the interview, it was said that the legal eagle at NZTA got the whistle blowers to pipe down.

      • ianmac 6.1.1

        "sn't invoice non-compliance a white collar euphemism for fraud?"

        Not necessarily. Can be sloppy accounting. Matthews said he addressed that and she promised to do better. Out of thousands of invoices I bet it is not unusual to slip up.

  7. joe90 7

    A Nativity story.


    • greywarshark 7.1

      I thought that the innkeeper told the enquiring, needy couple something like this below. The innkeeper apparently did what he could for the pair.

      1 There is no room in the inn – it is full of paying guests.

      2 I do have stables where you can have a roof over your heads, and a place to sleep. Basic, but with straw the animals have, to sleep in but you should be okay.

      This is a following of events around the birth of Jesus looking at Mary's history. http://kingjamesbibledictionary.com/Dictionary/Mary

      Soon after this the decree of Augustus (Luke 2:1) required that they should proceed to Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), some 80 or 90 miles from Nazareth; and while they were there they found shelter in the inn or khan provided for strangers (Luke 2:6, 7). But as the inn was crowded, Mary had to retire to a place among the cattle, and there she brought forth her son, who was called Jesus (Matthew 1:21),

      To say that the innkeeper was at fault so Herod can't be blamed is a bit of a 'strawman' isn't it.

      • Sabine 7.1.1

        the innkeeper was at fault for not providing a save space for a women in labour to give birth.

        giving birth in a shit infested cow/sheep stall at the time would have been a good chance to die of birthing.

        essentially it was greed that won and not compassion and humanity.

  8. Gosman 8

    Please name me a country on the planet with a more vibrant and diverse media than the UK?

    FFS the UK has a massive public service media organisation that many lefties in NZ have been demanding we have in NZ yet apparently that isn't good enough for some.

    I think the real problem is some lefties don't like the fact that many people don't like either hard left policies, or certain hard left political leaders, or both.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Bill 8.1

      You're not pulling that shit on my post. You want to talk about media diversity? Okay. Show me the plethora of diverse takes from UK pop media on…Syria, Russia, Corbyn, Trump, US elections…etc, etc, etc.

      • Gosman 8.1.1

        I asked you to name me a more diverse media environment than the UK. I bet you can't.

        • Bill

          In terms of a "diverse media environment", the USA is probably ahead of the UK because there's more 'independent' media of all spots and stripes using internet platforms in the US than in the UK (or elsewhere).

          • Gosman

            Except the UK also has a plethora of those sorts of outlets. What the real issue seems to me is you don't like Right wing media full stop. You seemingly would prefer all your media came from a narrow band of views. In my mind you are a prime example why the hard left is dangerous to a open and pluralistic society. You want to control the message and how it is delivered rather than work within the constructs of a complex media environment.

            • Bill

              It really is a stretch to suggest that the number and diversity of political youtube channels in the UK stacks up against the situation in the US. Same goes for podcasts and web based news sites.

              My bug bear with pop media is precisely the issue you claim I'm supportive of. Pop media is basically homogenised – it's far too bound/narrow – some of the reasons being that they're keen to maintain government access for their easy stories and are dependent on revenue streams from advertisers(who are anything but neutral in their politics)

              Meanwhile, if you care to cast your mind back to the whole Laura Southern/Molenyeux debacle, you can read, right here on this site, how I vociferously opposed efforts to shut them down. Hardly indicative of this assertion you make about me wanting to 'control the message'.

              Anyway. If there's a breeze up by your way, you might not suffocate in any fug being generated by your endlessly farting brain Gosman. Talking of fresh air….I'm off.

        • Grafton Gully

          What do you mean by "vibrant media" ?

        • Gabby

          Germany, gozzeroni.

  9. joe90 9

    Pentagon Papers 2.0

    A confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.


    Several of those interviewed described explicit and sustained efforts by the U.S. government to deliberately mislead the public. They said it was common at military headquarters in Kabul — and at the White House — to distort statistics to make it appear the United States was winning the war when that was not the case.


    Year after year, U.S. generals have said in public they are making steady progress on the central plank of their strategy: to train a robust Afghan army and national police force that can defend the country without foreign help.

    In the Lessons Learned interviews, however, U.S. military trainers described the Afghan security forces as incompetent, unmotivated and rife with deserters. They also accused Afghan commanders of pocketing salaries — paid by U.S. taxpayers — for tens of thousands of “ghost soldiers.”

    None expressed confidence that the Afghan army and police could ever fend off, much less defeat, the Taliban on their own. More than 60,000 members of Afghan security forces have been killed, a casualty rate that U.S. commanders have called unsustainable.



    • ianmac 9.1

      During the Vietnam War the US Military were notorious for vastly exaggerating the number of enemy killed and softening their own casualty numbers. Strangely the Iraq war figures minimised the number of Iraq casualties, I suppose because 100s of thousands were civilians.

      Think of our Army minimising the number of dead during the current enquiry.

    • Jenny How to get there 9.2


      10 December 2019 at 10:43 am
      Pentagon Papers 2.0

      ……The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.

      Obfuscation and denial from the people in positions of responsibility.

      Watching Chernobyl on Prime. The same massive denial and downplaying of that disaster by the authorities there.

      Vietnam, Chernobyl, Iraq, Afghanistan.

      “making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false”

      It forms a distinct pattern.

      A pattern that helps us comprehend the downplaying by establishment authorities of the climate disaster.

  10. weka 10

  11. Incognito 11

    The Al1en, apologies.

    Do you have a copy of your comment posted @ 10:02 AM?

  12. I don't, but I kept it simple, so I'll have another go at it. Ta.

  13. UncookedSelachimorpha 13

    If child poverty is caused by neoliberal policies, and the one thing you refuse to change is your neoliberal policies, this is what happens:

    Ardern government fails to reduce child poverty in New Zealand

    The children’s commissioner, Andrew Becroft, released the annual child poverty monitor on Monday which has found 148,000 children live in homes experiencing material hardship in six or more areas, including lack of access to basics such as warm clothing, health care and food. The figures are unchanged since the first report into child poverty in 2012.

    “I want to see family incomes dramatically raised by increasing benefits and making the minimum wage a living wage,” Becroft said.

    • Adrian 13.1

      You have obviously missed ( deliberately ? )the full radio interview with Becroft when he stressed that the latest figures available predated the Ardern government and that he expected considerable improvement in the next lot with the things that have been done by the coalition.
      Eleanor Aige does have a tendency to selective reporting.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.1.1

        I did miss that, although not deliberately!

        Here's hoping things do improve – and yes, the last government made things worse. But "National did it" is a very poor excuse when you are now in the driving seat (with an NZF handbrake, to be sure) – we need things to become significantly better.

        Simply increasing benefit rates (plus scrapping the claw back when people start working) and lifting the minimum wage to the living wage – would give very rapid results. Only the barest minimum has been done by the coalition so far and I still hold they are hamstrung by being neoliberal at heart and believing that redistribution is a dirty word.

        Child poverty, welfare: government inaction frustrates advocacy groups

        The government has failed to take any immediate measures to fix child poverty, a member of an expert group set up to help reduce it says.

        ..nine months on from the report and its 120 detailed recommendations, just three would have been implemented.

        "It seems nothing has actually happened that's actually making a significant change in the welfare system to most people in the nine months since our report came out,"

  14. McFlock 14

    Greens scrapping the budgetary responsibility rules.

    Labour looking to loosen the rules.

    The BRR were all about spiking tory allegations of spending the country into bankruptcy. They were training wheels to prove the coalition won't fall over. Well, it looks like next term a left govt will be able to control its cash like grown ups.

    • weka 14.1

      Good news and good timing. Next year's budget should be interesting too.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 14.2

      Excellent news! Well done Greens!

      Hopefully we will now see a more mature discussion of the role of economics and the way economies actually work, instead of the right-wing bullshit and lies that underpinned the BRR commitment.

      National will keep to their debunked austerity / neoliberal / Chicago School ideology no doubt.

      • McFlock 14.2.1

        lol I reckon you're optimistic about a more mature discussion.

        But the big change is that now labgrn can say "our economy is going gangbusters, let's help normal people rather than overseas billionaires".

        • UncookedSelachimorpha

          You are right, unfortunately!

          The relaxation / abandonment of the BRR is based on the "economy doing well" (whatever that means), instead of the actual truth – that the whole rationale behind the BRR in the first place is bunkum.

          • McFlock

            It's a bit like dealing with small children – sometimes it's easier to use reasoning they understand, even if it's incorrect and irrelevant to your motives lol

  15. Eco maori 15

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    That's awesome putea to spend on making Hospitals heating environmentally friendly putea for Railways and renewable energy projects.

    I will be watching the British elections.

    The farmers milk will be covered by insurance.

    Ka kite Ano

  16. Eco maori 16

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That's is cool to see some technical buoys design to warm Aotearoa and our Pacific Cousin about Ngaru Ngaru Tsunami being setup in the Pacific Moana.

    That's the way get the tamariki into Maori sports and teach them their history at the same time.

    Ka kite Ano

  17. Eco maori 17

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    People with superiority complex can not admit they are at fault.??????????????.

    Art is like any Phenomenon that gets people attention.??????.

    Congratulations on your win Te Rapa see one doesn't need chemicals to grow food just natural products like worm casting.

    . Ka kite Ano

  18. Eco maori 19

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

  19. Eco maori 20

    The corupt new Zealand sis look like they are going to try and frame me again today what have I done to deserve this SHIT THEY are showing the world how corupt new Zealand is I have seen 5 marked police cars going past around me with their lights flashing the muppet

  20. Eco maori 22

    In the last week I had 2 of the SIS actors stop in front of my truck and step me out for a fight I know that is what they want to lock me in the jail and drug me and beat me and never bail me fucken wankers

  21. Eco maori 23

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    Keep up the good mahi Time will tell keep up the pressure as once it becomes economically insane to back carbon the pollies will come running.

    I think that Te Tai tokerau doesn't want a port built making a mess of their Taonga harbour.

    Ka kite Ano.

  22. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Samoa would be a great place for a holiday.

    I think TVNZ needs more Tangata Whenua Culture included in its profile after all we are 16 to 20 % of the population not 1 %. Some of

    My best memories is home at our Marae.

    Ka kite Ano

  23. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    That's good acting.

    Democracy is being tested.

    On the Big Farm we had a Bovine / Cow sauna to help Cows recover from paralysis caused by birth problems it worked. very well.

    I don't no why they cancelled School dental nurses.???????

    Ka kite Ano.

  24. Eco maori 26

    Mark our Coalition Government is going to save your mahi they believe in ballance media.

  25. Eco maori 27

    The public can see you sis actors driving right up the ass of my truck were ever i go sandflys muppets

  26. Eco maori 28

    Keep up the excellent mahi the pollies have to stop putting money before your futures.

    Youth climate activists have called for a global strike on Friday to protest that human rights and social justice have been sidelined at the UN climate talks in Madrid, where governments look set to wrap up two weeks of negotiations without a breakthrough on the pressing issue of greenhouse gas reduction

    Campaigners have been frustrated not only at the slow progress of the talks but also that groups representing women, indigenous people and poor people have struggled to have their voices heard within the conference halls where the official negotiations are taking place, even while 500,000 people took part in a mass protest in the streets outside last Friday

    “Human rights and gender equity are at the heart of what we are talking about on the climate,” said Mary Robinson, former UN high commissioner for human rights and president of Ireland. “This is about people and people’s livelihoods. Gender and social justice have an enormous impact on what people face from climate [breakdown]. If we don’t have these issues included we are going to make enormous mistakes.”

    She said progress had been made on a gender action plan that was promised as part of the 2015 Paris agreement, but that some countries were still reluctant to include the language of human rights in official UN outcomes from the talks.

    Fridays for Future, the movement that coalesced around the world after Greta Thunberg’s solo school strikes, said the summit “has failed us. On 13 December, local Fridays for Future groups will strike because the outcomes of COP25 [the name for the UN meeting] are not only insufficient, but a painful image of how little the politicians care about the planet.

    “We stand in solidarity with indigenous people, people from the global south, and people already suffering from the climate crises

    Ka kite Ano link below.


  27. Eco maori 29

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    That's is the logical thing to do Railways has the lowest transport carbon footprint this will take the huge pressure off our road that big trucks put on our roads.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco maori 30

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Its good to see respect of Maori Tikanga.

    Ka pai Winston for going to tau toko Samoa. The same to the Stars of Samoa going to tau toko Samoa.

    Mana Wahine.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco maori 31

    Thanks Jim I have stated that you are a great Kiwi leader. Our mokopuna need a clean and green environment to have a healthy prosperous life with all the beautiful creatures that the God's gave us not piles of putea.

    Former PM Jim Bolger challenges 'status quo' approach to climate change

    Jim Bolger gives a speech after receiving an honorary doctorate from Waikato University.

    Jim Bolger attended more than 130 graduation ceremonies during his stint as Waikato University chancellor, conferring degrees on thousands of students.

    In a role reversal of sorts, the 84-year-old stepped back into the spotlight at Tuesday's capping ceremony, this time to receive an honorary doctorate.

    And he was happy to admit to a few nerves.

    "If you don't get nervous, then you've lost your sense of occasion," Bolger said afterwards

    Ka kite Ano link below.


  30. Eco maori 32

    Condolences to Peter Whanau.

    Peter Snell winning the 800 metres at the 1960 Rome Olympics.

    New Zealand's greatest Olympian, Sir Peter Snell, has died, aged 80.

    Sports historian and friend Ron Palenski confirmed on Saturday morning that Snell had died at his home in Dallas.

    Snell, who first developed heart problems in 2010, passed out while driving and crashed into several parked vehicles last month

    Ka kite Ano link below.


  31. Eco maori 33

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

  32. Eco maori 34

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    Climate change is going to have a negative effect on our wildlife and as the temperatures rise any logical person knows that we will have more fires.

    I read that story of the Octopus and the Eagle locked in battle.

    Ka kite Ano

  33. Eco maori 35

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Awsome the Coalition government and council starting programs for screen to get Pacific tangata mahi on making TV and movies . Pacific tangata Mana shines on TV and Movie screens.

    Ka kite Ano

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