Open Mike 11/01/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, January 11th, 2019 - 201 comments
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201 comments on “Open Mike 11/01/2019”

  1. WeTheBleeple 1
    11 January 2019 at 7:10 am

    Am I living under a rock or was this event poorly advertised?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503343&objectid=12188251

    The Jacksons, The Supremes, The Village People, all here, and I had no idea.

    Being a punk rocker of course it was stock standard position to hate disco, but reality is those tunes were so good I still remember a lot of them.

    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      11 January 2019 at 8:45 am

      Probably because those bands got big before the disco era, when tunes were the catchy hook that made them hits. The disco beat replaced tunes in ’76. Supremes hit #1 in ’64, Jackson 5 in ’67, Village People in ’73. From memory, which is becoming somewhat unreliable nowadays…

  2. Ad 2
    11 January 2019 at 8:05 am

    Kinda wondered why Sri Lanka were being such easy beats at cricket here.

    And now we know.

    A corruption probe so big the whole team is being offered amnesty.

    https://www.icc-cricket.com/media-releases/970385

    • gsays 2.1
      11 January 2019 at 8:20 am

      If you put a gun to my head, in the last two ODIs, NZs bowling attack looked like it had a wager or two.

      Not that I think that happened.

    • patricia bremner 2.2
      11 January 2019 at 12:25 pm

      Wow Ad, that is probably unlikely for the present series here, and diminishes the performances of our team in Pakistan. Granted India will be an acid test.

  3. dv 3
    11 January 2019 at 8:22 am

    A Southland farmer’s climate change letter to Minister James Shaw https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/109853971/a-southland-farmers-climate-change-letter-to-minister-james-shaw

    I was interested in the statement about methane,

    Methane can be stabilised. The science appears clear that this only needs to reduce and stabilise over time, not achieve net zero. So, lets believe in this science as it is the best knowledge that we have as we head off on this path into unchartered territory.


    There was no reference to support the statement.
    Can anyone point to the appropriate research?

    • Matiri 3.1
      11 January 2019 at 8:31 am

      That letter is barely literate, no wonder the scientific claims he makes are dubious.

    • Robert Guyton 3.2
      11 January 2019 at 8:33 am

      “All farmers need to look at what small changes they can make to reduce their emissions.”

    • Pat 3.3
      11 January 2019 at 8:58 am

      I suspect he is referencing this….

      “Earlier this year, Frame and six other scientists published a paper that argued short-lived gases, like methane, should be accounted for differently in emission budgets because of their lesser warming potential over time.

      Frame’s view – which he’s sticking to in the face of the IPCC report – is that cuts to methane can be made later, before global warming peaks. Carbon dioxide’s a “stock” pollutant while methane’s a “flow” pollutant – one builds up and the other dissipates. “I would wait on doing more on methane until you see that you’ve really got the CO2 under control.”

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/10/08/269361/ipcc-report-intensifies-methane-battle

      methane may well be able to be treated as a flow IF the atmospheric levels hadnt over doubled in the past 150 years or so (and are still increasing)….so logically before they can be treated as a flow the levels need to reduced.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1
        11 January 2019 at 12:18 pm

        Yeah, sounds like bollocks.

        All GHG gases can be treated as a flow as it actually is a flow.

        In to the atmosphere >> removed from atmosphere >> In to the atmosphere

        That’s happening even now.

        The problem is that the ‘In to the atmosphere’ far exceeds the ‘removed from atmosphere’ and so we end up with an increase of those gases in the atmosphere which then changes the climate.

        As it is, we need to radically reduce the amount of GHG emissions that we’re making and that’s going to require radical action. As far as farming goes – we need reduce the number of farms until we only produce enough food to support ourselves. Forget exporting of food – we just can’t afford it.

    • patricia bremner 3.4
      11 January 2019 at 2:11 pm

      The letter saying methane could be stabilised. Lincoln University appear to have done a study. Perhaps that is what he is referring to?
      His request for the Minister to give farming time to change was sad.
      Shaw, with the best will in the world can not hold back the damage, and 12 years is 12 years.
      To buy time, farming has to buy in big time, lower both carbon and methane , then they may get a little time relief.
      He keeps mentioning emotion, and how decisions need to be made without emotion.
      This letter is indicative of where sympathetic farmers are, and as Southland is so far right in politics, it is a step forward imo.
      It is certainly an amazing shift from that farmer holding up the sign “She’s a pretty little Communist” in Te Aroha.
      There are recognised stages of grief and some were evident in this letter.
      Quite a shift since Jacinda stood up and said “Climate Change is the most important challenge we face”

      • Robert Guyton 3.4.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:41 pm

        Methane “degrades” into C02, after a decade or so, but in the meantime warms like crazy! Shouldn’t we keep that stuff out of the atmosphere?

      • Sacha 3.4.2
        11 January 2019 at 7:11 pm

        “His request for the Minister to give farming time to change ”

        The selfish lazy feckers have had decades already. Successive govts have bent over backwards to coddle them. Time to pay the piper.

      • Morrissey 3.4.3
        11 January 2019 at 7:31 pm

        Farming—especially the enormous dairy farms—in alliance with irresponsible and corrupt politicians, is a menace to this country.

        JOHN KEY: Well that might be Mike Joy’s view, but I don’t share that view.

        STEPHEN SACKUR: But he is very well qualified, isn’t he? He’s looked, for example, at the number of species threatened with extinction in New Zealand, he’s looked at the fact that half your lakes, 90% of your lowland rivers, are now classed as polluted.

        KEY: Look, I’d hate to get into a flaming row with one of our academics, but he’s offering his view. I think any person that goes down to New Zealand …

        SACKUR: Yeah but he’s a scientist, it’s based on research, it’s not an opinion he’s plucked from the air.

        KEY: He’s one academic, and like lawyers, I can provide you with another one that will give you a counterview. Anybody who goes down to New Zealand and looks at our environmental credentials, and looks at New Zealand, then I think for the most part, in comparison with the rest of the world, we are 100% pure – in other words, our air quality is very high, our water quality is very high.

        http://www.noted.co.nz/archive/listener-nz-2011/john-keys-unhappy-week-at-the-bbc/

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/10/one-does-have-to-ask-should-they-get.html

        • greywarshark 3.4.3.1
          11 January 2019 at 7:34 pm

          Don’t start doing an Ed will you Morrissey – emphatic opinions about things we already know and have well-thought-out opinions about.

          • Morrissey 3.4.3.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 7:52 pm

            Crikey! Thanks for the heads up, Mr Shark.

            How IS Ed, by the way? Is he really banned FOR LIFE?

            • greywarshark 3.4.3.1.1.1
              12 January 2019 at 5:01 pm

              Probably only for your life – he will never wear out. In the future the situation will be that old bloggers never die; they will leave waiting algorithms to be triggered by particular words which will answer every reply drawing from a number of random sentences.

        • Tamati Tautuhi 3.4.3.2
          12 January 2019 at 4:01 am

          JK ain’t that smart even though a majority of New Zealanders thought he was at 3 x General Elections, 2008/2011/2014 ?

  4. Morrissey 4
    11 January 2019 at 8:39 am

    The “left wing” Argentine junta and the “fraud” Chomsky.
    Welcome to Kiwiblog!

    General Debate Jan. 10, 2019
    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/01/general_debate_10_january_2019.html#comments

    Yesterday was not exactly the Day of the Dumb Bastards. That infamous 24 hours occurred in September ’03. * No, yesterday was, as usual, just another Day of the Sad Gits.

    Starting at 8:01 a.m. (Keeping Stock: “Hooray; no moderation!”—22 upvotes) all, or nearly all, their obsessions were covered. Those obsessions are:

    1.) Māori privilege, Māori criminality, Māori culture; Māori identity. Paulus airs this carefully thought out thesis: “But of course the difference is that most Australian Aboriginals are 100%, whereas there are no pure 100% Maori.” A thinker called Tall Man joins in: “I’m ‘part aboriginal’. Just you wait when my ‘people’ get into the money I’ll be there tongue hanging out….. Yeah nah. What I have I made, what I will get is what I create. Why can’t maori think like that?”

    2.) empathy for the beleaguered rich and condemnation of the lazy poor;

    3.) hatred of “Cindy” (Jacinda Ardern) and murderous envy of “Jethro” (Clarke Gayford). calendar girl sneers at “our lightweight Ardern” and garners 21 upvotes. RW Capitalist chimes in: “Light weight … difficult to understand, how a mammal with so little brain function, could still be breathing. SLG may be a compliment.” (18 likes)

    4.) contempt for the underperforming Simon Bridges;

    5.) a Bob Jones level of disregard for rules and regulations. “The Herald is pushing the nonsense that it is unacceptable that to even have a wine with a meal,” fumes Chuck Bird, and slightlyrighty agrees: “I am observing high amounts of zealotry when it comes to alcohol and the enforcement of regulations.”

    6.) veneration of the late Margaret Thatcher. Simon comments, in apparent high seriousness, on the sinking of the General Belgrano: “Great stuff. Overall the Falklands war helped defeat the genocidal left.” (23 upvotes). mikenmildagain, one of the sane people on this site—yes, there are a few—contests that remarkable view: “That’s the first time I’ve seen the Argentinean junta described as the genocidal left.” (26 downvotes) This dissenting view is smartly shot down by Tall Man: “Probably a lot of “firsts” for you on this blog. After all, you do seem to occupy the ignorant left side of the political spectrum.”

    7.) clueless recycling of the most unhinged American fringe journals. harvey wilson and Maggy Wassilieff discuss, in tones of the most perfect seriousness, how Noam Chomsky is… (wait for it)…. a tool of the military.
    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/01/general_debate_10_january_2019.html/comment-page-1#comment-2399074



    8.) veneration of Trump and his henchmen. Scott writes: “Yesterday in a fiery exchange presidential spokesperson Kelly Anne Conway tore into CNN “reporter” Jim Acosta. She called him a smart arse to his face! I love it when Trump and his administration call out the press. The news media for years and years have got away with their leftist propaganda. Trump and his associates are the only ones who stand up to the out-of-control press. If we only had politicians here on the right who would do the same!” (39 likes)

    9.) “multiculturalism” —–> crime. Some taxi-drivers in Halifax, Ontario have been arrested on sex-assault charges. DigNap15 snarls: “The weak Canadians get what they deserve!” (20 likes) Then, eleven minutes later he has another thought and posts a follow-up: “And the weak Germans and Swedes and Poms” (19 likes.) kowtow agrees: “Yep , too many of them make a virtue of embracing “multiculturalism”. Now they can live with the consequences.” (16 likes)

    10.) marijuana (general consensus: bad); Ben Shapiro; bureaucracy; oral sex; Mark Lundy; the Mongrel Mob; Pete George; vegans; Jair Bolsonaro (a hero, of course), cricket…..

    ad absurdum….

    
* https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/day-of-dumb-bastards-sept-26-2003.html

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      11 January 2019 at 8:54 am

      Well, nobody can argue that rightist culture isn’t diverse. You’ve compiled overwhelming evidence against that. Too toxic for me. Wading through their swamp regularly in your thigh-high gumboots, eh? Preaching at the denizens within? Or just in the research spirit of the social ecologist, to learn what mass psychology motivates them? It would be better to draw some informative conclusions lest readers here see the listings as a form of cultural pollution…

    • Pete 4.2
      11 January 2019 at 10:53 am

      Kiwiblog’s like going into One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest meets The Living Dead meets the Mongrel Mob wannabes who missed out because their IQ’s didn’t reach 67. Directed by the Voice of the Establishment, David Farrar.

    • Maggy Wassilieff 4.3
      11 January 2019 at 11:43 am

      Morrissey,

      There you are, dear.
      Whatever are you doing over here?
      We’ve been searching for you for hours.
      Did you lose you way?
      Now come RIGHT back.

      • Morrissey 4.3.1
        11 January 2019 at 12:31 pm

        Thanks Maggy. I’ll be there, pronto. Give everyone a great big HUG for me, will you?

        Except for that old rapscallion and nun-botherer Captain Mainwaring, of course.

        • Tamati Tautuhi 4.3.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 5:25 pm

          Did you go to the Mental Asylum this morning for some entertainment, “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” is a good description Like +100%

          • Morrissey 4.3.1.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 6:23 pm

            Thanks very much, Tamati. I actually like the people over there. They’re not as bad as one might think on first contact. Yes, some of them say some shocking things, but I doubt they really believe most of the extreme things they say.

            Similarly, there are some pretty hair-raising opinions voiced on this site.

            • greywarshark 4.3.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 7:42 pm

              That’s the point Morrissey, you have fingered an outstanding point:
              some of them say some shocking things, but I doubt they really believe most of the extreme things they say.

              The are mostly blowhards who just want to pass an opinion, irritate, get superior. TS has a destiny to be a pretty serious discussion about our society, our environment, and what we can do about it. There isn’t time for too much fence sitting, and time-passing. Being on TS isn’t a replacement for a pub discussion.

              That’s the difference between the RW, who are either ascetic in pursuit of profit, or hedonistic at the core, and the LW who can be ascetic in pursuit of higher wages etc and hedonistic, but can be dragged back by the remaining values to the people that they have, so that the betterment of society and compassion can be inserted in Slot B; and sometimes up to A.

            • patricia bremner 4.3.1.1.1.2
              11 January 2019 at 8:14 pm

              They hope we read and feel disturbed by them.
              Throwing stones in the pond to see what rises.

              • greywarshark …
                12 January 2019 at 5:20 pm

                The Loch Mess monster? Or one of those aliens from the swamp.
                We might hope for a Yoda but i think it is the wrong swamp. We could learn good things from Yoda. He says use the Force. Then do, not say you’ll try. There is no try.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.4
      11 January 2019 at 2:43 pm

      2.) empathy for the beleaguered rich and condemnation of the lazy poor;

      Philosophers justifying slavery

      It’s clear that Aristotle thinks that slavery was good for those who were born natural slaves, as without masters they wouldn’t have known how to run their lives.

      The Greek philosopher Plato thought similarly that it was right for the ‘better’ to rule over the ‘inferior’.

      Thousands of years and the RWNJs haven’t changed their tune. They, of course, consider themselves the ‘betters’.

      • JohnSelway 4.4.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:13 pm

        Wow – are you actually applying left/right to Aristotle and Plato?

        I’ve done 3 years Classical Studies, 2 years Latin and over 5 years in political science and this is the very first time I have heard anyone apply left/right to BCE philosophers.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 3:35 pm

          Have you actually got an argument as to why I shouldn’t?

          The attitudes and philosophies are the same.

          • JohnSelway 4.4.1.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 3:53 pm

            I highly doubt you are actually qualified enough to make such a statement (you have such hubris?) when it is one that no one qualified has suggested so, you know, [citation needed]

            Secondly because the “attitudes and philosophies are the same” – what part of plato’s or Aristotles philosophy is/was right-wing? Which philosophers would you consider left-wing (from the same period please)

            So many [citation needed]. Otherwise you are just – https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

            • McFlock 4.4.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 5:03 pm

              Interesting. looking at Plato’s Gorgias, the comment about slaves used in Draco’s link appears to be very much out of context.

              Plato loved dialogues, where Socrates would debate with various archetypes of opponent and then masterfully (sometimes in a contrived way) demolishing naive philosophical positions or picking holes in categorical statements. The quote in the BBC link of DTB says Plato supported slavery, but the comment was actually made by one of Socrates’ foils (Callicas).

              Now, the caveat on this comment is that the last time I read Plato, I studied a paper on that book a few months later and realised I’d understood almost nothing even though I’d thought I had a handle on it. So maybe Socrates ended up demonstrating that slavery was a fine thing indeed. But it looks to me on the surface of it that he’s completely ripping shit out of the ‘might makes right’ doctrine. I especially liked the bit about the doctor apportioning food.

            • greywarshark 4.4.1.1.1.2
              11 January 2019 at 5:12 pm

              The RW always resort to this minute discussion of crossed t’s or spelling or what are your credentials. Aligning themselves with superior philosophers from millenia ago. Democratic tendencies R’Out.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1.1.1.3
              11 January 2019 at 7:31 pm

              I highly doubt you are actually qualified enough to make such a statement (you have such hubris?) when it is one that no one qualified has suggested so, you know,

              OMG, No on else has made the same comparison so you must be wrong.

              /sarc

              Yeah, I think the hubris lies with you.

          • JohnSelway 4.4.1.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 4:19 pm

            Also you fallacy is thus:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

            • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1.1.2.1
              11 January 2019 at 7:48 pm

              Nope.

              • JohnSelway …
                11 January 2019 at 8:25 pm

                Yes Draco, yes.
                From WP – “The false dilemma fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception. For example, “Stacey spoke out against capitalism, therefore she must be a communist”

                From Draco – “Plato spoke in favour of slavery therefore he’s Right-Wing”

                Also [citations needed]

        • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.2
          11 January 2019 at 10:51 pm

          I’ve seen it in books several times. Usually called aristocrat, meaning conservative. This from the relevant wiki implies a benign elitism hierarchy:

          “Plato lists three classes in his ideal society. Producers or Workers: The laborers who make the goods and services in the society. Auxiliaries/Soldiers: Those who keep order in the society and protect it from invaders. Guardians (Philosopher kings) — those who are the most intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, and well suited to make decisions for the community, and who promote the interests of the society as a whole.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_political_philosophy

          • JohnSelway 4.4.1.2.1
            11 January 2019 at 11:22 pm

            Applying modern ideas of left and right in a historical context dating back nearly 3000 years is stupid and you should feel stupid

            • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.2.1.1
              12 January 2019 at 7:34 am

              Since I was very careful not to do that, you should feel stupid for seeing something that isn’t there! To a hammer, everything looks like a nail…

          • McFlock 4.4.1.2.2
            11 January 2019 at 11:24 pm

            Pretty much every philosopher who envisioned an ideal society said that the most suited and capable people should rule, and they should rule for the benefit of society. That applies to everyone from monarchists to communists (where people suited to managing contribute according to their skillset). To flip it around, very few said “society should be ruled by a narcissist who serves only their own interests”. Ayn Rand, comes to mind, but with very little company. Hobbes and other monarchists of around that era asserted to some degree or other hereditary monarchy was a capable trade-off to prevent anarchy, and that the knowledge of imminent succession enabled training and a lifetime of preparation for the role – heavy on the implicit acceptance of noblesse oblige, and also that it was the work of God and therefore infallible (inbreeding politely ignored).

            Plato’s PK wasn’t hereditary, nor were there generally proxies of wealth or strength (e.g. “I am rich, therefore I will be the best ruler” or “I am ruthless and killed my competitors, therefore I deserve to rule”) included, if I recall broadly correctly. And the philosopher king certainly wasn’t supposed to follow the Right wing thinking of “what is good for me and my rich and/or powerful friends is what is good for the society”.

            Democracy is about the only one that allows some chance of periodically selecting an imbecile to rule, which is why its entire approach is to organise the transition away from particular rulers, rather than installing or justifying them. Even then, there’s usually some sort of faith in the ability of voters en masse to usually pick equivalently capable rulers, rather than focussing on the merits of a population simply being able to choose its own path to hell.

            • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.2.2.1
              12 January 2019 at 7:47 am

              Yeah, that’s mostly my view too. With the possible exception of this bit: “the philosopher king certainly wasn’t supposed to follow the Right wing thinking of “what is good for me and my rich and/or powerful friends is what is good for the society”.”

              Debatable, that. Historical evidence of such people is notable for the lack. Amongst Roman emperors, Marcus Aurelius is the obvious candidate. I doubt any examination of his rule would produce evidence of him serving anything other than the insitution of the patriarchy.

              One could also go for my tribe’s emperor, Charlemagne. A successful warrior who ruled as that rarest of creatures, a genuine christian, and established an education system for his subjects that became the prototype for all public education since. However power-sharing was never on his agenda. Quite the contrary!

              However, I do agree that the next king of England will fit the philosopher king description accurately. You only need to follow the money to see how he has implemented his philosophy, and in his book he explains why & how.

              • McFlock …
                12 January 2019 at 2:38 pm

                No, he won’t.

                It’s possible that both “philosopher” and “king” have lost something in the translation. Plato was talking about a merit-based ruler who considered situations rationally and in great depth. And Plato made clear the ruler should rule in the interests of society.

                Whether such an example has existed in history is irrelevant to whether Plato was even remotely “right wing”.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  12 January 2019 at 2:47 pm

                  Inasmuch as Charles will not rule as king, you’re technically correct, but I’m confident that he will be an exemplar in combining the philosopher role with the status of king.

                  Having read the book, I’m better-informed about that. I won’t argue about your final statement – I can’t see any relevance. How right-wing any aristocrat may have been is pure conjecture. Won’t stop many from seeing a correlation though, and jumping to the general conclusion.

                  • McFlock …
                    12 January 2019 at 3:12 pm

                    Read up the thread. The discussion is happening literally because Draco called Plato a RWNJ.

                    Kings, or any ruler, can be smart, dumb, cruel, kind, rational, impulsive, self-serving, or serve the public good. Then they die or are replaced in some other manner. The discussion was about whether a particular philosopher’s ideas constituted being “right wing”. I think most of Plato’s works could go either way – any right wing or left wing society could follow his political philosophy.

            • Morrissey 4.4.1.2.2.2
              12 January 2019 at 7:16 pm

              Pretty much every philosopher who envisioned an ideal society said that the most suited and capable people should rule, and they should rule for the benefit of society.

              That’s pretty much what we have with the ideal cabinet of Donald J. Trump, isn’t it? Who could be more suitable, capable and beneficial rulers of any country than the esteemed forementioned Trump, ably backed up by such stratospheric talents as Giuliani, De Vos, Pence, Pompeo, Mnuchin, Bolton, Carson, Perry, Nielsen….

              • McFlock …
                12 January 2019 at 8:08 pm

                wtf are you going on about now?

                • Morrissey …
                  12 January 2019 at 8:13 pm

                  Jesus H. Christ—another humour failure from this perpetually foul-tempered former thespian.

                  It’s been another long and unhappy day for you, clearly. Cold shower time?

                  • McFlock …
                    12 January 2019 at 8:37 pm

                    Actually it’s been pretty productive – did some reno, got a large item delivered and installed, did some chores. Then some jerk came along and talked about dolt45. for no reason whatsoever

                    • Morrissey …
                      12 January 2019 at 8:49 pm

                      “for no reason whatsoever”.

                      Really? You couldn’t see how the Trump cabinet might be the perfect illustration of what you called “the most suited and capable people”?

                      Or do I have to tag it like our friend Sacha wants, i.e., /sarc?

                    • McFlock …
                      12 January 2019 at 9:15 pm

                      I understand that dolt45 is an outstanding example of a bad ruler. Bringing him into a serious and actually quite interesting discussion of Plato and foundational political theory as a joke is like laughing about fatal haemorrhoid surgery at a keynote address on proctology. Timing is everything, and it’s one thing you don’t have in an asynchronous communication medium.

                    • Morrissey …
                      12 January 2019 at 9:31 pm

                      Fair point. My timing was about as good as my taste, I guess.

                      I’ll get my coat.

  5. marty mars 5
    11 January 2019 at 8:59 am

    A sensitive story for sensitive farmers and those supporting them. Up for a BAFTA this.

    https://www.shortoftheweek.com/2018/10/09/73-cows/

    Change can happen but it starts INSIDE.

  6. WeTheBleeple 6
    11 January 2019 at 9:07 am

    On the topic of climate change: I found this very interesting advertorial for Schneider Electric. It makes some good points about retrofitting:

    “retrofitting is […] often forgotten: Typically, examples of “sustainable living” feature new buildings, new cars, and new city designs. But by 2050, it will neither be feasible nor economically wise to rebuild what is already put in place.”

    “Dallas County, the ninth largest county in the U.S., government spent $600,000 on 54 buildings for improvements including mechanical system upgrades, water conservation controls and fixtures, and lighting with motion sensors. The project is expected to reduce utility bills by 31 percent, ultimately saving $73 million over 10 years.”

    How’s that for a return on investment.

    And this:

    “Schneider Electric is among the few companies who have a business case aligned with moving humanity out of ecological overshoot. With this, these companies have a baked-in economic advantage: On average they are aligned with the growing need of living within the means of our one planet. This exposes the companies to an expanding market, a feature that makes it much more likely for such companies to be successful in the long run compared to companies that are incompatible with one-planet prosperity and will inevitably face a shrinking demand.”

    Companies that retrofit and actively support retrofitting the planet will gain loyal consumer bases. Sounds great right!

    https://www.overshootday.org/energy-retrofit/

    But, it’s much more interesting than that…

    Schneider Electric have been naughty! There’s a 2016 $6.8M fine for breaching EPA standards, 16 bribery charges in 2014, and 2018 raids in France concerning alleged collusion and corruption.

    So this company is keen to retrofit the planet, at cartel prices, while it’s factories continue to pollute, and if there’s an issue a little bribery can fix it.

    And none of this comes as any surprise.

    We can take the good from the advertorial however. Retrofitting buildings can make a significant difference. Also, for business, a significant economic difference.

    Passive heating, passive cooling, natural lighting, sensor operated systems to minimize use… There’s a lot of good ideas out there to help turn your business or home into a more efficient space.

  7. Pat 7
    11 January 2019 at 9:12 am

    Desperately trying to continue a flawed model

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12188595

    Spot the 6 letter flaw.

    • Andre 7.1
      11 January 2019 at 9:49 am

      Even perpetual economic growth isn’t a fatal flaw in and of itself. It’s fully possible to envisage continuing growth from people providing services to each other accompanied by decreasing resource usage. Automation and efficiency improvements can do that if managed well.

      It’s growth in consumption of finite resources that’s the problem. In fact, it’s ongoing consumption of finite resources that’s a problem, until that consumption of finite resources goes to zero and we’re fully renewable.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 9:58 am

        Quite right. However this nuanced view has failed to get traction in politics. Growth is good being a powerful complex meme, and addiction psychology being beyond the mental grasp of media operatives.

        Russel Norman advocated Green growth when he was co-leader. I didn’t mind that, since he rationalised it as using tech to trend business towards sustainability. Biomimicry suggests using growth in nature as the new paradigm: businesses flourish like plants, then die in due course, while others emerge. Steady-state economics becoming the norm half a century after conception.

        • Pat 7.1.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 10:21 am

          what you both describe is not growth….its continued activity with a diminishing resource use….the antithesis of growth, named Degrowth, and is the only viable option and the need for its implementation is exceedingly time constrained.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 10:36 am

            Yes, but growth in nature is a thing. It comes & goes. So framing it on that basis is a way to bridge the gap between the enterprise dimension of capitalism (growth-producing) and the Green fundamentalist view (growth kills nature). The bluegreens, I thought, would do this. Their failure doesn’t just damage their credibility, it operates as a handicap for all.

            • Pat 7.1.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 10:53 am

              Growth in nature is indeed a thing….growth in the terms of a lifecycle which includes a natural limit , if those limits are exceeded what happens?….a forrest for example cannot continue to grow forever outside its environmental confines and the individual components of that environment require a balance that is controlled biologically……there is no endless growth in nature but our current economic model claims to have rewritten the laws of nature (physics)…..one hell of a marketing pitch but patently false as is increasingly evident.

              His views arnt widely popular but his book title is accurate, nature does indeed bat last

          • marty mars 7.1.1.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 10:41 am

            + 1 yep the law of diminishing returns seems to always clog the growth gears eventually and more often quite quickly nowadays.

      • Pat 7.1.2
        11 January 2019 at 10:00 am

        Youve invented perpetual motion?

        There is no output without input and ALL activity requires input…existing requires resources…never mind the desire for ease. It is IMPOSSIBLE to continue to grow (anything) ad infinitum in a finite environment…and we have passed that point.

        It would be worth considering that this finite environment dosnt need our existence , indeed it is in the process of ridding itself of us.

        • WeTheBleeple 7.1.2.1
          11 January 2019 at 11:12 am

          Bluegreen is just greenwashed blue.

          Sustainable growth – an oxymoron?

          Not at all. But you have to base your systems on natural ecology, that which grows in production and complexity. When the waste of one is the food/fuel of the next a whole raft of products can be realised within a single system.

          As systems develop biodiversity increases and more and more connections between species and processes become apparent.

          Industry could learn much from natural systems. We have a lot of disconnected competitive entities all jostling to make money and in the process throwing it away – advertising, competition, proprietary rights yadda yadda. Work in isolation pumping out dollars and waste you are not part of an ecosystem you are kind of parasitic.

          The waste of one industry feeds the next

          e.g. Brewery -> aquaculture -> market garden -> worm farm -> orchard -> brewery…

          e.g. Forestry -> Biochar and Mycology -> Market Gardens -> composters -> Forestry

          e.g. Seafood Processing -> Farming -> Aquaculture – > Seafood processing

          Treat every waste stream as potential income/input to another product and examine how to convert it.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.2.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 11:20 am

            Good permacultural systems thinking. Cycles are a hard concept for rightists to grasp, but I think it unwise to dismiss the bluegreen trend as merely greenwash. Up to around a decade ago I would have agreed, but since then they’ve been on a convergence trajectory.

          • Pat 7.1.2.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 11:23 am

            and there is one unavoidable outcome of sustainability….a reduction in human population…which need not be a big problem but will likely be so.

    • Gabby 7.2
      11 January 2019 at 10:36 am

      Who’s desperately trying to continue a flawed model?
      What is this flawed model?
      What is the flaw?
      Is this a typo hunt?

      • Pat 7.2.1
        11 January 2019 at 11:17 am

        -every country pursing a growth in economic activity….so pretty much every country in the world (19 with negative growth but not necessarily by choice)

        -growth

        -growth

        -no

        • greywarshark 7.2.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 11:58 am

          I realised that if you cut down ‘growth’ you might end up with ‘grot’. Here is a bit of Reggie Perrin in his store Grot, where you can get just the right thing to give to People you Hate.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3
      11 January 2019 at 6:54 pm

      But deficits still matter, they still invoke risks, and it matters a great deal what the public sector spends its borrowed money on.

      And that’s the only bit you need to read to understand that what he’s saying is just more of the same failed financial system as we already have.

      The public sector should never borrow money.

      All public sector spending should be government created money. No borrowed money and no interest to pay. Government bonds should not exist.

    • Siobhan 8.1
      11 January 2019 at 11:47 am

      Ikea, destroyers of the environment…
      “the key issue with IKEA from an environmentalist’s point of view is that the company encourages the mass-consumption of goods that generally need to be replaced after a few years, putting an increasing strain on the world’s natural resources. In her 2009 book, Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture, Ellen Ruppel Shell argues that IKEA – by some measures the world’s third-largest consumer of wood – sells products with a limited lifespan and that, by claiming its products are ‘sustainable’ and come from ‘renewable’ sources, effectively encourage consumers to replace like with like, rather than spending more on longer-lasting products.”

      https://theecologist.org/2011/oct/19/behind-brand-ikea

      ( a funny article, because its trying to be pro ikea while telling us how flawed and destructive the basic business model is…it can’t be easy being a environmentally aware Capitalist.)

      Ikea the tax dodgers..

      https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/18/eu-probes-ikea-after-dutch-deals-reduce-tax-bill-by-1bn

    • millsy 8.2
      11 January 2019 at 3:41 pm

      Cargo Cult mentality in full swing here. Most of what IKEA stocks can be found in The Warehouse anyway, just under a different brand name. But each to their own.

      • patricia bremner 8.2.1
        11 January 2019 at 8:48 pm

        Ikea who wants to assemble it? Can’t see the attraction myself and Aussies love it.

  9. Ad 9
    11 January 2019 at 10:56 am

    Tucker Carlson rails against US capitalism.

    OK Sure this is Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

    Now that you’ve got over that, have a watch as he rails against capitalism and rule by capitalists elites. It’s causing some stir over in Fox land.

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-mitt-romney-supports-the-status-quo-but-for-everyone-else-its-infuriating

    It’s like he’s ingested a fair amount of Elizabeth Warren’s book, and he expands a bit with the Vox people.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/1/10/18171912/tucker-carlson-fox-news-populism-conservatism-trump-gop

    You may well think this isn’t relevant to the converted on the left, but given Carlson’s massive influence on Fox and his massive conservative influence, it bodes very well for the populist messaging that Warren already has down.

    It also works surprisingly well read in a New Zealand context if you can mentally edit out the accent.

  10. Ad 10
    11 January 2019 at 10:59 am

    Ann Coulter
    @AnnCoulter

    Ocasio-Cortez wants a 70-80% income tax on the rich. I agree! Start with the Koch Bros. — and also make it WEALTH tax.

    • SaveNZ 10.1
      11 January 2019 at 11:11 am

      only income taxes don’t work anymore because there are so many loopholes to reduce it or use tax havens

      Better to have a tax like transaction taxes and get the money as it moves around the world

      Also taxes that use that model aka Robin Hood taxes rampant consumption which we need to nip in the bud before the planet is destroyed.

  11. SaveNZ 11
    11 January 2019 at 11:07 am

    Glasgow had the highest murder rate of any western European city: 63 victims per million. An innovative approach to gangs turned it into one of the safest cities in the UK.

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/glasgow-crime?utm_source=More%20Stories&utm_medium=internal

  12. greywarshark 12
    11 January 2019 at 11:53 am

    Real discrimination against women comes largely I think because men resent women being the gender that can give life to a new person, and therefore is unwittingly powerful over all. Self-made men are particularly pissed about this!

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/379893/nepal-woman-and-children-die-in-banned-menstruation-hut

    I understand that in the Jewish religion, menstruating women have to sit in
    a separate position in their religious space.
    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jewish-women-on-menstruation

    And after looking at that it will probably have penetrated the minds of all as to how bodily appearance, looking ‘good’ and right, are embedded in female’s sensibilities from a very early age.

    • WeTheBleeple 12.1
      11 January 2019 at 2:16 pm

      In ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ by Margaret Atwood there is a quote something like ‘Men are afraid that women will laugh at them; and women are afraid that men will kill them.’

      While the book/series is set in some Dystopian future, there are many parallels with the fundamentalist teachings and practices of today. Many christian women say nothing of their lot, for it is ‘not their place to’.

      I posit that a large proportion of today’s misogyny originated with, and remains with, religions.

      Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34

      He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 1 Kings 11:3

      If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.

      Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24.

      That’s the mob I’m familiar with. The Torah and other ‘gospels’ are no better.

      • millsy 12.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:44 pm

        Which is why we need to get rid of religion. Even Judaism. The sooner the better.

        Someone I know went back to the Jehovah’s Witnesses a while back and has gone from independent woman to totally buying into all that ‘women are inferior’ BS. Become a total prude too.

    • SHG 12.2
      11 January 2019 at 5:15 pm

      Real discrimination against women comes largely I think because men resent women being the gender that can give life to a new person, and therefore is unwittingly powerful over all. Self-made men are particularly pissed about this!

      It’s a dead giveaway with any religion. If the magical superhero arrived in the world through something other than normal birth nine months after normal sex between a man and a woman, it’s a religion predicated on fear and hate of women, with all their slimy biological yuckiness.

  13. cleangreen 13
    11 January 2019 at 12:03 pm

    So now also the “eco” plan now comes to grief as well here!!!!!!!!

    Apparently now it seems that “air tight homes’ are now deemed as “dangerous” to us all too.

    Time to open windows and let some ventilation in to expel the toxic VOC’s.

    It seems that for ‘every benefit’ comes some ‘unintended consequences’ now.

    Full marks to this NZ company ‘Tether’ and for their CEO Brandon Van Blerk for telling the truth about ‘sealed homes’ as not being fully safe, as they trap volatile organic chemicals (VOC’s) inside them, and dangerously poisoning the inside air and the residents.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1812/S00078/insulation-can-worsen-unhealthy-home-issues.htm

    Insulation can worsen unhealthy home issues
    Tuesday, 18 December 2018, 11:41 am
    Press Release: Tether
    PRESS RELEASE
    Tether Limited
    18 December 2018
    Kiwis cautioned that insulation can worsen unhealthy home issues
    An air tight home does not equal a healthy home and may even exacerbate the damp, stagnant conditions that lead to mould, mildew and respiratory problems likes asthma and pneumonia among children and older adults in New Zealand.
    CEO of healthy home monitoring technology company Tether, Brandon Van Blerk, said while Government making home insulation a priority is a good thing, over emphasis on insulation might actually make the problems worse.
    “Good insulation should go hand-in-hand with adequate ventilation and air exchange because good insulation alone makes a home airtight, and that will lead to moisture problems and a build up of noxious gases, harmful particles like dust and mould spores and volatile organic compounds (VOCs).”
    “A healthy home has the trinity of 1. Good insulation, 2. Adequate ventilation and 3. Efficient air exchange.”

    • WeTheBleeple 13.1
      11 January 2019 at 2:19 pm

      This has been known for so long. WTF is wrong with designers?

      Design college…

      • McFlock 13.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 2:34 pm

        lol look at who issued the press release – a company targeting their home monitoring devices at landlords so the they can “educate tenants”.

        It’s a bit like the research that said dishcloths can cross-contaminate – sponsored by a paper towel company.

        Beating up a known and manageable problem in order to sell their stuff – in the latest case, big brother monitoring of tenants for their landlords.

    • ianmac 13.2
      11 January 2019 at 2:42 pm

      Decades ago I remember it being argued that NZ homes were airy and uninsulated but that those who lived in them were healthier and had greater resistance to colds and flu, especially compared to those who lived in warm centrally heated airtight well-insulated homes. At the extremes I guess those who lived in tents would be healthier still. (Air conditioning can spread infections on warm humid air.)
      We do like to be comfortable though don’t we?

      • WeTheBleeple 13.2.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:16 pm

        Was just thinking on this yesterday, how climate change could put the air conditioning power demands really high, and the poor who can’t afford it.

        We certainly need passive cooling and heating in our designs. Whether we can afford power or not, if we know how to do this (we do) not doing it is a waste of power for the buildings lifetime.

        I have an air inlet for a cooling cupboard placed 5 feet up on a sun exposed brick wall – Just W.T.F…

        Drop that same opening to ground level and shade it out with shrubs – huge improvement. Put a new opening on the shaded side of the house, add shrubs, and an outlet up high on the opposite hot side of the house and I got a breeze through the house.

        I can’t afford a damn air conditioner. All buildings should have a breeze built in. See if you can fiddle round with windows on shaded and bright sides and get one running.

      • Draco T Bastard 13.2.2
        11 January 2019 at 3:30 pm

        Decades ago I remember it being argued that NZ homes were airy and uninsulated but that those who lived in them were healthier and had greater resistance to colds and flu, especially compared to those who lived in warm centrally heated airtight well-insulated homes.

        That sounds like bollocks put about to justify having cold, damp houses that were cheap to build and thus maximised profits for the developers.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.3
      11 January 2019 at 3:27 pm

      Ah, so good of a CEO to come out and justify us having cold, damp houses killing us.

      Everyone who’s done 3rd form science knows that we need to actually breath and so we don’t build airtight homes. That’d just be stupid.

  14. soddenleaf 14
    11 January 2019 at 1:17 pm

    If the UK has a problem with the new Eu border, while doesn’t Ireland? Why is Ireland choosing to scrap the peace agreement with the north and not even holding a referendum? Is Ireland waiting to see how the UK Eu agree the new relationship?
    I can’t see the Eu, any more than the UK, rushing to build customs border control.

    So why has May so successful put the eu off talking, it’s in the interest for the UK,Ireland, businesses all to continue working… ..only a hard brexit will work since nobody is accepting the reality that the UK is leaving. Until everyone affected is in tge room, the doors locked and not opened until its done.

    I can’t see the Eu wanting people let into the uk crossing the border in Ireland and entering the eu, or vis vevia, Syria’s buying tickets to Ireland… ..so where is the eu commitment to the peace agreement?

    • Sabine 14.1
      11 January 2019 at 2:25 pm

      Syria is buying tickets to Ireland?

      Got any links to confirm that statement?

    • McFlock 14.2
      11 January 2019 at 2:43 pm

      The UK needs Europe more than Europe needs the UK. Europe doesn’t need to renegotiate its trade network from scratch. Europe is more open to immigration than the UK wants to be, so illegal immigration from UK into Europe won’t be a huge problem. Europe has much higher GDP than UK.

      • soddenleaf 14.2.1
        15 January 2019 at 12:46 pm

        why then does the pound and eu buy roughly the same number of dollars.
        And yes sure a dysfunctional multipolar collective of foreign languages should by the virtue of its larger population dominate the relationship but there’s the assumption, Britain is also a part of a dysfunctional trading English speaking block, the commonwealth.Germany has Turks and now Syrians, Britian has south Asians and caribbians…

        The joke is that brexit exposes the Tories up for the incompetents they are. Instead of dealing with those left behind, it let itself believe the eu was the problem.

        • McFlock 14.2.1.1
          15 January 2019 at 1:04 pm

          I don’t get what you’re going for: what has the exchange rate got to do with GDP?

          And what do you mean by “dealing with those left behind”?

          • soddenleaf 14.2.1.1.1
            17 January 2019 at 4:26 pm

            UK has a large non European market. Comparing the UK singularly with the whole of EU is remarkable. Better to compare with Germany surely.

            • McFlock 14.2.1.1.1.1
              17 January 2019 at 8:04 pm

              Germany doesn’t negotiate its own export deals. Merkel had to explain this to dolt45 a wee while ago.

              around 54% of UK exports go to European trade partners.
              16% of EU exports go to the UK.
              EU has to renegotiate 16% of its export markets.
              UK has to renegotiate all of its export markets.
              Germany negotiates no export markets.

              UK gets only 7% of Germany’s exports. Germany gets 10.6% of UK exports.

              • soddenleaf …
                21 January 2019 at 3:29 pm

                Sorry.Parts from the world going into the UK, to build cars say, for the eu market… …or other goods going to the UK… look I jus don’t aged with comparisons of the UK and Eu. Also UK germany are more comparable, since a lot of what germany exports takes parts from the uk, and cars, or wharever.

                Everyone loses from Brexit, the Tories the most.

                • McFlock …
                  21 January 2019 at 6:34 pm

                  Even on a UK/germany comparison, as I pointed out before the UK is more reliant on exports to Germany than vice versa. And Germany can get parts from anywhere in the EU for cheaper than a trade deal with the UK.

                  So in the five years after a hard Brexit the UK will have barriers put on 10% of its export market. Germany can choose where else it buys from. British manufacturing gets bollocked unless the rest of the world suddenly open up to the UK – which it’s not going to do. Meanwhile, czech manufacturers supply the parts Germany wants. UK gets shut out of cooperative contracts like Typhoon and CERN. What will Europe or Germany weep over not getting from UK?

    • Dennis Frank 15.1
      11 January 2019 at 3:08 pm

      “The remarks drew online ridicule. Some say that if prayers work, the government should set up the Ministry of Magic and make Thailand a superpower. Others say that they also pray for the junta to leave politics but it did not work out.”

      Magical thinking hasn’t been flavour of the month in western civilisation since the 17th century. Science replaced it. In the counter-culture, it flourished briefly again but so many interesting things happened that the generation born in the fifties got weirded-out, and scooted back to moronic conservatism.

      The good news is that Lyall Watson books are still around, so anyone interested in the magical dimension of nature can get up to speed easily. As long as one becomes adept at not becoming captive to any delusion, Castenada still provides a model on the application side of things. Flawed, inasmuch as the guru thing ended up claiming him as victim. But we lack a useful model of how to apply shamanic practice in contemporary political contexts. When I raised this question at a political meeting of around 40 people around five or six years ago I got sustained applause, but no answer.

      • Robert Guyton 15.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:36 pm

        What, Dennis, was your question? I’m up for it (depending on what it was 🙂

        • Dennis Frank 15.1.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 4:37 pm

          You didn’t notice? It was the previous sentence: how to apply shamanic practice in contemporary political contexts. I have a few clues on the topic due to my personal history as change-maker, but I was hoping for more. I noticed long ago that being a fast learner & fast mover is a problematic path (peer group drops off the pace).

          • Robert Guyton 15.1.1.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 5:03 pm

            Hmmmm… okay, I did notice, but…I could have drawn that inference/inferred that, but you didn’t ask, or state a question…so, now that you’ve asked and I’m not applauding without answering, here goes…”how do we apply shamanic practice in contemporary political contexts” – that’s it, just to be clear? Effectively, is my answer; effectively if you mean to effect change. I’m very interested in this discussion; would you care to elaborate a little so that I can getafix on your intent, I’d like to bat ideas back and forward…

            • Dennis Frank 15.1.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 5:31 pm

              Can do but probably more suitable for the weekend topic of how to get there, but the already mentioned theme is more important. The one that Andre suggested.

              Changemaking involves catalysis. It involves shifting mass consciousness (which is where shamanic function comes in). It involves an orientation to the time axis, one that transcends passive acceptance of the current reality as predetermining the future by default.

              Science hasn’t even yet accepted that we actually have an innate orientation to the time axis. Psychology is a barren field populated by folks with small minds. Post Jung, I mean. Minimal progress. Political psychology, the key arena, is devoid of content.

      • greywarshark 15.1.2
        11 January 2019 at 5:07 pm

        Today shamanic thinking is saying grace before a meal.

        • Dennis Frank 15.1.2.1
          11 January 2019 at 5:34 pm

          I tried that. Everyone sat down to the meal, I said “grace”, and everyone laughed. I suppose you could argue that I shifted mass consciousness for the group…

          • greywarshark 15.1.2.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 6:02 pm

            Too right Dennis. I don’t do grace now. I thought recently; why? We and I have taken everything too casually. Post war – what could go wrong? Now I am a bit sharper prior to my senescence.

            • Robert Guyton 15.1.2.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 6:05 pm

              “Blessings on the blossoms,
              Blessings on the fruits;
              Blessings on the leaves and stems,
              And blessing on the roots.”

          • Anne 15.1.2.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 9:53 pm

            The only time I was ever asked to say “grace” I said:

            For what we are about to receive may the Lord be truly thankful.

            Everyone was too polite to laugh.

            • Dennis Frank 15.1.2.1.2.1
              11 January 2019 at 10:28 pm

              No doubt taking a while to process the cognitive dissonance. “Huh? What did she just say?” I presume you were a child at the time. Kids are often inadvertent subversives, in those years before convention and group-think tighten their grip. I hope the lord didn’t punish you for disrespect.

              • Anne …
                11 January 2019 at 10:58 pm

                I was about 18 yrs old. I think the lord gave up on me around that time. Mind you it was mutual separation.

    • Robert Guyton 15.2
      11 January 2019 at 3:38 pm

      I’ve heard you can “think” bumblebees out of your house through an open window.
      Bruce. Have you tried this (in order to debunk the idea?)

      • Andre 15.2.1
        11 January 2019 at 3:56 pm

        Never heard of humans thinking bumblebees out of a house. But several times I’ve observed bumblebees successfully thinking humans out of their houses. Including once through an open window.

        • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 5:05 pm

          Ha! Funny, but now that you have heard of thinking them out, will you apply the scientific principle and test my hypothesis/proposal/claim?
          Give it a go and get back to us with your findings.

          • McFlock 15.2.1.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 5:20 pm

            Dunno about bees, but flies are usually pretty easy if you know their behaviour. I open the bathroom door ajar, and the bathroom window fully. Fly gets attracted into bathroom, can’t get back into rest of house, flies out window. Flies that come in window don’t get into rest of house, fly out window again. They usually like to go from dark to light.

            Easier than trying to swat them.

            • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 5:23 pm

              Yes.

              • McFlock …
                11 January 2019 at 8:01 pm

                I wouldn’t go so far as to say that observing animal behaviour and using the knowledge to get rid of them is in the same ballpark as praying or thinking them away, though. If I do swat a sitting fly, I aim behind it to take advantage of its launch mechanism.

                My thinking doesn’t make it jump packwards, its reflexes do.

            • greywarshark 15.2.1.1.1.2
              11 January 2019 at 6:08 pm

              Owing to the stress and strain i haven’t wiped my cobwebs again. I have one at the base of a window that is near a corner, where the blowflies buzz over to. If they walk along the base of the window they will get caught in an arm of the web, buzz madly then I see some long legs arise and a mad dash for spider to get it while it’s hot. Watched a couple of flies go that way. Otherwise they get encouraged out. Swatting can knock them down and they may spill juveniles.

              • Tamati Tautuhi …
                12 January 2019 at 4:16 am

                I keep the house full of cobwebs through the summer to catch the flies, cheaper than toxic fly spray and use’s less energy than a fly swat.

          • Andre 15.2.1.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 5:50 pm

            Not gonna risk it. My self-esteem wouldn’t survive losing a brainpower battle with a bumblebee.

        • joe90 15.2.1.2
          11 January 2019 at 5:10 pm

          I once sat on a bumblebee that had overnighted in my pyjamas. Bugger bit me multiple times back side of my tenders but once the stinging subsided, I thought all would be well. Nope.
          I arrived home mid morning after an early surf with things below feeling rather tight, so I dropped my strides and there they were, the pair of ’em were the size of oranges, and growing.
          Eventually antihistamines calmed things down but oh dear, the pain and discomfort.

          • Macro 15.2.1.2.1
            11 January 2019 at 5:22 pm

            hehehe Reminds me of time I was riding my m’bike in a pair of shorts. A wasp went up the left leg. Ahhhhhhhhhh. I stood up on the foot rests and managed to bring the bike to a stop but ooooh I shall never forget that. Nor the time I sat on the sofa and there was a wasp sitting on it – I nearly hit the roof. lol
            Reminds me of a story our psychology lecturer told us to demonstrate the nature of a phenomena.
            A thistle – that is no phenomena
            A bee – that is no phenomena
            A horse – that is no phenomena
            But a horse, sitting on a bee, sitting on a thistle – that is a phenomena.

            • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.2.1.1
              11 January 2019 at 5:25 pm

              Have you read/watched “Ferdinand”?

            • Bruce 15.2.1.2.1.2
              11 January 2019 at 6:12 pm

              We had a morris 8 with a wind out windscreen on a trip to the beach wearing only a sarong i meet with a wasp in the worst of spots, i was very pleased to get into the ocean

              • Macro …
                11 January 2019 at 7:20 pm

                Oh yeah! I remember those. I had a Ford 10 and a mate and I shared a Standard when were at college. Used to drive it up the Akatarawas after school each day – until it ran its big end bearings. 🙁 His dad was a mechanic, and being wise to the after school drag racing up a very windy hill road decided that the best solution was that the car was unfixable. 😉 We sold it off as parts netting 15 quid which was 5 more than we paid for it! Paid for our petrol – which as I recall was around 2/6 a gallon in those days.

      • Dennis Frank 15.2.2
        11 January 2019 at 4:53 pm

        Probably works better when combined with action. I did this with a possum, after buying the old harbour-master’s villa, up on the hill overlooking the old jetty at Port Waikato.

        For those who don’t know, it was a port for the coastal trade until the sixties. I’ve got a 10×8 photocopy of an old photo taken from the air, showing a tanker in port at that jetty. Then the farmers stripped the Waikato river hillsides for more farmland, the silt was deposited at the river mouth, and tankers could no longer get in.

        Anyway a noise woke me one night, and I could tell it was in the kitchen area, so I came out cautiously, flicked on the light, and the biggest possum I’ve ever seen was sitting calmly on the middle of the dining table watching me. Size of a wallaby, in a similar stance. I thought for a few secs, then sidled carefully around it & opened the window on the far side, then sidled back again.

        It must have observed this just as carefully, as it immediately, in leisurely fashion, exited. So the technique works if the creature observes the exit.

        • Robert Guyton 15.2.2.1
          11 January 2019 at 5:08 pm

          Portals are vital. A possum can’t usually exit where there is no point of exit. Usually. Bats, I’m not so sure 🙂
          Animals sometimes have difficulty identifying open portals. I’ve noticed. I catch, in my hands, one or two blackbirds a day in my kitchen. They don’t seem to mind being exported.

        • Tamati Tautuhi 15.2.2.2
          12 January 2019 at 4:20 am

          Like potty training children ?

      • Bruce 15.2.3
        11 January 2019 at 6:08 pm

        I think that by our thoughts we create our own reality. I’ve never seen bumble bees as something to wish to move so have never tried.
        Away from NZ I see people with quite a different view on supernatural forces and more accepting of their impacts , my natural inbuilt western cynicism is something I’m yet to conquer but i find my perceptions continualy challenged.

        • Robert Guyton 15.2.3.1
          11 January 2019 at 7:45 pm

          Let’s talk more about these things…

          • Chris 15.2.3.1.1
            11 January 2019 at 9:19 pm

            The progressive left has traditionally viewed human interaction as being about language and choice and the dynamics of sociality. Whereas the right view the world as something to control via science and prediction of human behaviour, which is impossible to do, therefore provides the wrong analysis.

          • Bruce 15.2.3.1.2
            11 January 2019 at 9:42 pm

            Well ghosts or spirits, we have one in my NZ house ; my late wife far more open than me would talk about her, now I mix with mainly Thai people and all who visit mention her presence, without prompting. Hard to explain.
            Here in Thailand every house has a small house outside for spirits of past family we leave food, It doesn’t dissapper, but my wife will often wake with story from someone who visited in the night and usually the message is relevent.
            After a death and cremation about 90 days the family and friends gather, the ashes are collected from the crematorium and a bucket of water and the best clothes of the deceased are put by the gate, he washes himself and dresses and joins in the party, the amazing part is the water moves, who knows but I don’t think anyone can conjure earthquakes at will so I’m left believing it is the spirit that disturbs it.

        • One Two 15.2.3.2
          11 January 2019 at 8:49 pm

          That’s good stuff, Bruce…getting challenged…breaking it down…becoming open…

          Human senses operate within a narrow band…yet ego and hubris operate in broadband…

          Doubtless, there is copious activity going on outside our senses and egos capability to handle…

  16. NZJester 16
    11 January 2019 at 3:24 pm

    Another toymaker accidentally makes another offensive toy by mistake.
    They need to have people reality check these toys sometimes.

    Hateful surprise: Offensive toy found inside Kinder chocolate egg
    11 Jan, 2019 9:54am

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12188639

    • Robert Guyton 16.1
      11 January 2019 at 3:34 pm

      “accidentally”???
      The people who filter Kinder’s stuff – they’re charged with reality-checking, aren’t they??
      Who could miss that?
      No one.
      They’re going for outrage as a marketing tool.

      • greywarshark 16.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 5:02 pm

        They didn’t know? Why not just have an extra balloon making two, to show how Kinder offers that bit more. But three? How about a bit of paper with a joke (yolk) on it or an offer, that would be doing something about plstic rubbish. Which that toy was. Neither useful or ornamental.

  18. joe90 18
    11 January 2019 at 6:01 pm

    Career MAGA scammer scams MAGA fools, and swatts former employees, too.

    Brian Kolfage, the decorated Iraq War veteran spearheading the massive, viral fundraising campaign to build President Trump’s border wall, who has a history of peddling right-wing misinformation on Facebook, pushed the limits of misleading content in pursuit of online traffic and profits until he was ultimately banned from the platform, according to multiple former employees and a review of internal communications.

    The 37-year-old has spent more than a decade carefully crafting his public persona as an altruistic, conservative public figure, but people who have worked with the veteran told BuzzFeed News he can be vengeful and malicious, and that the pursuit of profits above all else fueled his behavior.

    The veteran has also spearheaded other crowdfunding ventures over the years, raising thousands of dollars on GoFundMe with the promise of helping mentor fellow vets at military hospitals, but spokespersons for the medical centers said they have no record of Kolfage working at their facilities or donating any money.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/veteran-trump-wall-brian-kolfage-immigration-facebook

    Previously on TS

    • Morrissey 19.1
      11 January 2019 at 6:47 pm

      Interesting piece, well written. However, the alarm bells should go off when you encounter a sentence like this:

      The rise of “populist movements”, Barack Obama said in a speech last summer,…

      Obama was not, and is not, a credible or serious commentator.

      • Pat 19.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 7:04 pm

        is anyone?….besides his contribution was only as an example

        • Morrissey 19.1.1.1
          11 January 2019 at 7:13 pm

          Someone as deeply involved in the suppression of democracy and free speech as Obama was has no business commenting about “populist movements” or anything else.

          Golf is what he should be doing—along with his equally irresponsible Kiwi financier chum.

  20. Morrissey 20
    11 January 2019 at 6:34 pm

    Springsteen Apologizes for B. Obama Collaboration
    Singer expresses “regret that I was not both more informed and more discerning” when he sang for B. Obama in 2012
    by Philip Lasmy and Mart Westhauss, chiPforkt, Jan. 11, 2019

    Bruce Springsteen has apologized for collaborating with B. Obama in 2012. “I am deeply horrified by the irrefutable stories of mass killing surrounding B. Obama,” the rock legend said in a statement, posted on his Twitter. “I regret that I was not both more informed and more discerning when I worked with him previously. I fully support all victims of extrajudicial killings, and it’s my hope that there will be a path to justice.”

    Springsteen sang to B. Obama worshippers in Wisconsin on the final day of campaigning in the 2012 US Election. The rock legend capped his appearance by playing the anthem “Land of Hope and Dreams.”

    Springsteen’s apology follows Lady Oprah’s, who also worked with Obama in 2012. In a statement posted to Twitter last night, Oprah said that she intends to remove all traces of her collaborations with Obama from her mind. The apologies arrive as people continue to speak out publicly about B. Obama’s history of extrajudicial killing and his relentless persecution of journalists and whistle-blowers.

    https://pitchfork.com/news/phoenix-apologize-for-r-kelly-collaboration/

    • Sacha 20.1
      11 January 2019 at 7:02 pm

      Can you please label fiction appropriately.

      • Morrissey 20.1.1
        11 January 2019 at 7:17 pm

        What was the fiction, Sacha? Are you trying to say that B. Obama was not involved in thousands of extrajudicial killings and did not relentlessly persecute journalists and whistle-blowers?

        Really? Come on now—get serious.

        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        Oh, I SEE-E-E-E-EEEE! You think the average reader here is so thick that he/she won’t appreciate that it’s SATIRE. You want me to FLAG it for them, do you? Just in case they can’t work it out for themselves?

        No, Sacha, that’s not going to happen. You can helpfully wave a flag marked “SATIRE” if you like, but I don’t think many people need such prompting.

  21. Dennis Frank 21
    11 January 2019 at 6:40 pm

    Just saw an excellent story of how two old guys spent 15 years building a walking track in to the Koropuka Falls in the Caitlins, so everyone can go & see it fairly easily. Reminds us of the role voluntarism will play in maintaining & regenerating community in the non-monetarised part of society. It was on TV1. They got DOC approval to do it.

  23. joe90 23
    11 January 2019 at 7:32 pm

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trackdown-trump-character-wall/

  24. ropata 24
    12 January 2019 at 12:25 am

    This one really pissed me off just now:

  25. Tamati Tautuhi 25
    12 January 2019 at 5:40 am

    We need to start a “Bring Back Ed Campaign” I am missing his sarcasim.

  26. Eco Maori 26
    12 January 2019 at 9:13 am

    I agree with Mere Berryman I have reshurched my Ngati Porou history and its totally diffrent to the storys I was told .I also see a lot of storys glorifying the english settlors and belittling Tangata whenua any true storys that show Maori mana are hidden. Everyone knows that this justice system is having a kaka on Eco Maori.
    Mere Berryman: it’s time we did better by Māori students
    From The Weekend, 9:05 am on 5 January 2019

    New Zealand’s education system is failing Māori students by continuing to marginalise their culture, says Waikato University professor Mere Berryman, a 2017 New Zealander of the Year finalist.
    The Treaty of Waitangi promised both Māori and non-Māori equal shares of all the benefits that the colonial government was going to provide, yet what we’ve found that education has provided is a very western perspective that is about one history rather than both our histories.”
    ‘[The teachers] ask the Chinese girl about her culture and they try and tell me about mine’, Berryman was told by one Māori student.
    This one-sided storytelling not only disadvantages Māori New Zealanders, she says.
    “Māori have missed out because their histories are not being told authentically, but so too have non-Māori because they haven’t learnt about Māori histories [alongside European colonial history]. They’ve learnt a particular version of those events.”
    Berryman says she was shocked when a 2001 government report revealed that the experience of many Māori students still hadn’t improved since she and her siblings were in primary school, but wasn’t surprised when a 2017 report confirmed the depth and continuation of the problem
    Racism is something that we’re not good at talking about in New Zealand, but we all need to acknowledge its existence … Until we all work to understand [racism], I don’t believe, as a society, we will be able to move forward.”
    Currently, about 70 percent of students are served “exceptionally well” by the education system, Berryman says.
    “But 20 percent are doing a lot less well with and many of them are Māori.”
    The other 10 percent – which Berryman believes is a growing group – are impoverished immigrant and Pakeha students “often living in really risky situations”, she says.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/the-weekend/audio/2018677651/mere-berryman-it-s-time-we-did-better-by-maori-students

    • ropata 26.1
      12 January 2019 at 10:43 am

      Yeah I heard part of that interview on RNZ, it was good stuff. This captured the heart of the issue:

      ‘[The teachers] ask the Chinese girl about her culture and they try and tell me about mine’, Berryman was told by one Māori student.

      Berryman also mentioned that 170 years of colonisation is a huge factor in Maori underperformance.

  27. Eco Maori 27
    12 January 2019 at 1:32 pm

    trumps clinging to his toy wall is putting millions of peoples lives at risk and the poor people who don’t have the money to bounce back from disaster are going to pay the price of this tantrum
    Beleaguered firefighters put on hold by government shutdown
    “If you don’t do the hiring on time, then you can’t do the training on time, then you are not ready for the next fire season,” a nonprofit leader said.
    Controlled burns have been put on hold. Fire training sessions have been canceled. The hiring of hundreds of seasonal firefighters has been delayed.
    The nation’s wildland fire service — trying to regroup this winter after two of the biggest and deadliest fire seasons on record — has instead been cast into a state of anxiety by the three-week-old partial government shutdown. That’s because some firefighters with the Forest Service, National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management are among the approximately 800,000 government employees either furloughed or working without a guarantee of pay.

    The shutdown has affected hundreds of regular fire and support personnel at those agencies, along with seasonal “hotshots” and others who swell the fire lines during the forest and brush fire emergencies that have swept through the West with increasing
    emergencies that have swept through the West with increasing intensity nearly every summer and fall, according to wildfire experts. A Senate Appropriations Committee report estimates that as many as 5,000 Forest Service firefighters may be working without pay.
    Analysts say the sidelining of some firefighters comes at a difficult time because of the increasing length and arduousness of the fire calendar. After battling what was then the largest fire in California history in 2017, the Thomas Fire, and the deadliest fire in California history in November, the Camp Fire, firefighters do not appreciate going untrained and unpaid.
    If you don’t do the hiring on time, then you can’t do the training on time, then you are not ready for the next fire season,” said Goulette of the Watershed Center, which is based in the Northern California town of Hayfork. “And with fire season expanding in California and across the West, you better be ready. Spring does not last as long as it used to.”
    Fire experts and climate scientists say warmer and drier weather has prolonged recent fire seasons, making winter recovery time even more precious for firefighters to regroup. “There can be a little over 300 days a year now that someone is fighting a fire somewhere,” said Whittington, “compared to 200 or 250 days in the past. So the time to get over the last fire year and prepare for the next one is incredibly short.”
    Ka kite ano links below

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/beleaguered-firefighters-put-hold-government-shutdown-n957456

    • greywarshark 27.1
      12 January 2019 at 7:33 pm

      Interesting eco maori naming problems brought on to firefighters by lack of funding, poor systems, things not being done in a timely fashion,

      A Senate Appropriations Committee report estimates that as many as 5,000 Forest Service firefighters may be working without pay.

      And this at a time when the USA i confronted by terrible fires. Fat cats in politics, career politicians. It doesn’t work, and they need to have a set limit and then on their way.

  28. Eco Maori 28
    12 January 2019 at 3:17 pm

    Just had a strange visit I smell some thing the cheats will bring bad waiura to there whole whano and I will be watching saying ana to kai.

  29. Eco Maori 29
    12 January 2019 at 3:29 pm

    A Eco Maori Video for the minute

  30. Eco Maori 30
    12 January 2019 at 3:57 pm

    A Eco Maori Video for the minute

  31. Eco Maori 31
    12 January 2019 at 4:54 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  32. Eco Maori 32
    12 January 2019 at 6:38 pm

    Kia ora Newshub its not on tamariki are getting beat up for there shoes and the offenders get away with it WTF.
    The scam of the deaf cards being sold as a charity te scam is the capitalist way no.
    Ka pai to China sending the world pictures of the far side of te Marama.
    Ka pai for the Winton rugby match for Blair Vining it was cool for Mils to play to for Blairs bucket list game all the best to Blair and his whano.
    Good on Sea Shepherd for stopping the poachers by pulling up there illegal drift nets there actions are causing the extintion of Mexico ‘s Vaquita porpoise there are only 30 left we must protect all of our creatures from over exploitation.
    There you go the Ice is melting very fast at the antartica Ross sea ice shelf the sea’s are warming and rising fast that will cause a lot of animals to die.
    That show me how famous the All Blacks are the Theatre show getting big views in Amercia some people need tissues as they are crying about the All Blacks Mana & fame I say they should be thanking them for making Papatuanuku Rugby so Great. Ka kite ano

  33. greywarshark 33
    12 January 2019 at 7:29 pm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
    e.g.
    Mixed-use skyscrapers
    Mixed-use skyscrapers were proposed and built by architect Ken Yeang.[6] Yeang proposes that instead of hermetically sealed mass-produced agriculture, plant life should be cultivated within open air, mixed-use skyscrapers for climate control and consumption. This version of vertical farming is based upon personal or community use rather than the wholesale production and distribution that aspires to feed an entire city.

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