Open mike 11/12/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 11th, 2020 - 84 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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84 comments on “Open mike 11/12/2020 ”

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  1. Jester 1
    11 December 2020 at 6:54 am

    Looks like the guy behind the "cash drop" has a bit of history behind him. Doesn't seem like the type of guy you want to go in to business with. I think the company will be receiving a fine of some sort.

    The man behind Safety Warehouse's fake cash stunt: Who is Andrew Thorn? | Stuff.co.nz

    • RosieLee 1.1
      11 December 2020 at 6:59 am

      Agreed. But where was the Auckland city council in all this? How could such a stunt have been sanctioned for Aotea square?

      • greywarshark 1.1.1
        11 December 2020 at 10:12 am

        He is only 28 that Thorn in our side! The image of him shows him to be a good looking, sleek, well dressed young man – looks self-possessed, and self-centred and apparently keen to push into profitable ventures.

        Not much precautionary consideration for him I would say. His background indicates the recklessness and callousness that some business people adopt and succeed with. Sounds like Trump, looks like a Trumpian figure. There will be many decades of all sorts of clever moves to enrich himself; he might live as long as Trump.

  2. Stuart Munro 2
    11 December 2020 at 8:17 am

    “Silencing ‘disharmonious speech’ will not be golden” Paul Moon

    One take on the issue of regulating hate speech, but I think a myopic one. Countries have usually managed to criminalize sedition without altogether outlawing dissent for example – imperfectly perhaps, but law is an imperfect instrument. It suffices to go after the frank instances of hate speech, the ones that have proven problematic – and some have.

    Our country would not have been enriched by the contribution of the Southerns, and the sky did not fall, nor were many oppressed by discouraging them – their material being perfectly accessible online to anyone who cared. If that is what it takes to discourage Trumpism, it's a price I'm glad to pay.

    • Chris T 2.1
      11 December 2020 at 8:26 am

      If that is what it takes to discourage Trumpism, it's a price I'm glad to pay……….

      You missed a bit

      …………as long as I get to decide who can talk.

      • Stuart Munro 2.1.1
        11 December 2020 at 9:19 am

        But it isn't me that gets to decide – it's a judge.

        I expect the use of the rule will be reasonably conservative – but if that cramps the style of US bought redneck gun nuts like Nicole McKee, so much the better – they contribute nothing of value to NZ.

        • Chris T 2.1.1.1
          11 December 2020 at 9:45 am

          Again.

          In your opinion.

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.1.1
            11 December 2020 at 12:37 pm

            Feel free to trot out any evidence you might have that validates a contrary position.

            • left for dead 2.1.1.1.1.1
              11 December 2020 at 3:16 pm

              Stuart Munro,,, How about you trot out evidence re: Nicole McKee.

              You sadden me you creep.

              • greywarshark …
                11 December 2020 at 3:35 pm

                Nicole McKee – a little info.https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nicole-mckee-firearms-freedom-and-family

                The winds changed for ACT when David Seymour stood as the sole MP against legislation to outlaw military-style semi-automatic weapons in the wake of the 2019 Christchurch mosque attack…

                New Zealand First, as well as New Conservatives, continue to court the gun vote (Ron Mark even went so far as to tell a Masterton audience his party didn’t agree with some of the law changes it recently signed off). But the support of the community looks set to go to ACT – a party that’s now polling consistently between 7 and 8 percent.

                Given how much the party owes to its firearms family, it was no surprise to see Nicole McKee on the party’s list of candidates for this year’s election.
                What might have been surprising, was how much ACT has leaned into the gun vote.
                A June press release from ACT president Tim Jago, pointed out not once, but twice, that the party’s 2020 list included seven licensed firearms owners…

                Over the past year, McKee has become synonymous with the pro-gun lobby. The prominent advocate also runs her own firearms safety training business and is a New Zealand shooting champion.
                She is a mother of four and until recently, was the spokesperson for the Council of Licenced Firearms Owners (COLFO).

                https://www.act.org.nz/nicole-mckee

                “I believe that emotive and rushed legislation adversely affects those it is intended to support. The ACT Party principles not only promote freedom to live within the law but also efficient policies while treating everyone as equal. Our laws should be rooted in policies that recognise our democratic rights to think, to speak and to behave in a legal and unobstructed way.”

              • Stuart Munro …
                11 December 2020 at 5:10 pm

                From the few media appearances that she has made, McCree has established herself as a ranting fool. And you would seem to be one of her disciples – it would be sad, if it weren't so funny.

                And this is the party that pretends to libertarianism?

                A shameless shill for a foreign gun lobby – her disgrace is bottomless.

          • Tricledrown 2.1.1.1.2
            11 December 2020 at 1:04 pm

            Chris T Southern was one of the enablers of the ChCh terror attack

            Modern technology has made it easier to radicalise fringe mentally inadequate loners.

            There has to be a line drawn somewhere to minimise the spread of terrorism of any type.

            To allow free reign would be to you let the Taliban radicalise yet every democratic govt is shutting down their free speech so no rules for white supremacists and a complete ban on all other races and religions.

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1.3
            11 December 2020 at 7:02 pm

            Obviously. We all get that. Self evident (ie use of 'I', no links) so why are you commenting?

            • Chris T 2.1.1.1.3.1
              11 December 2020 at 7:11 pm

              Because someone is making a wild claim without any evidence to justify it.

              Or "doing a Mallard"

              • Shanreagh …
                11 December 2020 at 7:58 pm

                ……..or expressing an opinion.

                If we had to always link to what someone else says when putting our opinion forward it would not be our opinion. Hopefully people would put views supported by something/someone that can be unpicked or acknowledge as justifying….

                But then sometimes they don't quote chapter and verse and that is Ok too.

                The points made by Stuart Munro are valid to my mind. Another point of view.

    • Pataua4life 2.2
      11 December 2020 at 8:29 am

      Question for the people at the Standard.

      Do you think what Israel Folau said should de fined as "hate" speech. ?

      • Red Blooded One 2.2.1
        11 December 2020 at 8:53 am

        YES

      • Stuart Munro 2.2.2
        11 December 2020 at 9:24 am

        It was, because it was rephrased as a threat.

        Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (Conventional translation)

        https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1-corinthians/6/9-10#footnote2

        [deleted quote due to lack of link]

        • Chris T 2.2.2.1
          11 December 2020 at 9:47 am

          That isn't a threat.

          Unless you think the church should be done for hate speech.

          • Stuart Munro 2.2.2.1.1
            11 December 2020 at 10:33 am

            The difference between the text, and the Folau meme version of the text, is that one is directed at the reader, and the other is directed at an audience the meme maker wishes to intimidate.

            Intimidation is often accomplished by threats, or accompanied by implicit threats. The substitution of losing a desirable goal, for being consigned to punishment changes the focus of the text substantially.

            • Chris T 2.2.2.1.1.1
              11 December 2020 at 11:27 am

              It is not even a threat.

              If people are sheep enough to believe there is a Hell, then they are into it enough to know Folau doesn't get to decide who goes there.

              • Stuart Munro …
                11 December 2020 at 11:44 am

                It certainly is a threat – and encouragement to the kind of self-righteous morons that shoot up pizza parlours.

                But whether it meets the standard a careful judge might rule actionable is something else again. As it stands, Folau's employer distanced themselves from his statements, which covered the matter amply.

                A degree of deterrence to the sort of epic redneck stupidity that has done so much harm in the US is becoming necessary here. But one would have to be right out on the fringe to meet much more than a formal warning.

              • greywarshark …
                11 December 2020 at 12:48 pm

                Chris T I find that your pseudonym is intimidating. It appears to be Christ but coming apart which worries me deeply. I also find your frequent comments are an attempt to dominate this blog with your peculiar pronouncements according to your vision of the world, and how it should be. It appears to me that you are attempting to interfere with free, reasoned thought and speech. Could you glance over Gloriavale and others, instead, they need your pastoral care.

            • greywarshark 2.2.2.1.1.2
              11 December 2020 at 11:39 am

              Surely the fact that he was trying to stir up people's negative feelings towards some people who had done him no harm, or no great harm to him or anyone else, should be referred to. The desire to hurt people, to upset and harass them is an unpleasant thing when it only happens once in private. He disagrees with something himself, strongly and might feel he has to say so in church or in an interview.

              But he announced his opinion loudly and defiantly at a sports meeting, where he was because of his sporting ability which was being paid for by his club. His words were conveyed to a great crowd, the private hurt he caused became multiplied by the number in the crowd and those who heard or read the words and understood their meaning at the time, and later. It was an offence in my opinion, and illegal and irresponsible when his club was considered. Its intention was to denounce people with different ideas to him, and to damn them to the world. I think the term hate speech is being thrown around as a generic term, and another word found to replace it.

          • Red Blooded One 2.2.2.1.2
            11 December 2020 at 10:36 am

            At times "the church" should be done for hate speech depending on their preachings. Being told on the phone, during Lockdown by a church group that people who aren't abominations, like me, will be saved. Would you call that love speech?

            • Chris T 2.2.2.1.2.1
              11 December 2020 at 11:25 am

              No. It is just the church being their stupid selves.

              But I don't think there should be some law topping people from doing it.

              • Red Blooded One …
                11 December 2020 at 2:30 pm

                Just like the stupid people who told Rosa Parks she had to sit at the back of the bus, or the systemic racism or bigotry that has afflicted this country's history? (ie women or non-land owning Maori not being allowed to vote) I'm sure you will cry false equivalence, well I would disagree with you on that too. Sometimes it takes Laws to be brought in to stop bigotry or dominance of one group over another so while you may say you do not think laws should be brought in to protect citizens, I do. THAT is the beauty of free speech, not allowing "stupid selves" to preach Hate Speech. In my opinion.

              • greywarshark …
                11 December 2020 at 2:46 pm

                A law topping people? We may yet see that for those who are always shooting their mouths off. That is why we try here to elucidate reasonable ways forward. Good if you could think out something in joined up sentences which would require at least 4-5 lines explaining the whys of your wisdom.

        • Nic the NZer 2.2.2.2
          11 December 2020 at 7:29 pm

          Chris, You can hardly be very serious in your opinion that the Falau quote is hate speech. (Noteing this has since been moderated away).

          If you really believed that you wouldn't then say such a thing yourself.

          The thing about regulating speech is its about what is being said and not what those who say such things believe. If you say it its equally as harmful as if Falau says it.

      • aom 2.2.3
        11 December 2020 at 10:09 am

        Folau had his arse and paycheck kicked to touch for being a dick anyway, after he compromised his employer and sports code in contravention of his agreements.

        The more serious problem is the 'under the radar' bigots and self-entitled agitators of the unthinking followers (like Billy TK). Sometimes the State needs to provide guidelines with consequences for the recidivist recalcitrants in the hope they will begin to respect otherds, and to protect the many, not the few. To say there is a difference between that and driving offences as Moon posits, only proves that some academics and the legislative system lacks the ability to formulate sound law. What an indictment.

    • greywarshark 2.3
      11 December 2020 at 11:24 am

      edit

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53330105

      JK Rowling joins 150 public figures warning over free speech

      Law lecturer at Open University – https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/scottish-law-lecturer-hits-out-after-gagging-university-over-trans-comments-3059356
      The academic, who has been studying English literature with the OU, was expressing his thoughts on planned hate crime laws in Scotland that would allow men to self-identify as women as well as the furore around author JK Rowling’s views on gender.
      He wrote the SNP’s new Bill “would make it a crime for anybody to deny that a ‘trans’ woman (i.e. a man) was a real woman”.

      Where comes this hysteria about young people uncertain about who they are that has taken over our world? The young have always had to find their way in the world, try to understand their nature, their strengths and weaknesses.

      Unfortunately the business world has interfered in the running of society. There is not the definite pathway to a job and adulthood that there once was. Once you left school, got a job and did that for a while, might have then gained more skills, found a life partner, saved and bought a house and that was a learning experience just getting that far.

      What is the scene now, an imposition by government and authorities of disruption as a way of life; everything might change in a few years. How can you settle in and do something and build a life worth living? And the psychology broadcast by neolib – that people not in jobs are lacking in some way, NZrs are lazy, the constant chant about NZ's lack of productivity, the negative stuff is published and broadcast often. There is much of mealy-mouthed prejudices and conformist truths that speak the words of the anti-human cult; it talks about freedom and free speech, but what is it – the contents of an empty paper bag.

      That emptiness is what drives the frantic uncertainty of young people searching for identity and reacting to attempts to reveal the reality of this climate of voyeurism about humanity. What are we, and where are we going? We had better not talk about it, it is too scary, and wouldn't show the authorities in a good light. Soon it will be illegal to discuss child poverty and the degradation of society.

      The UK is trying to squash references to anti-capitalism in schools*; the Scots have a bill making it illegal to deny that a trans man is a woman. Our very bones and guts and minds are under attack from this mindless surge of disestablishment of society by the wealthy and predatory. Behind their facades they are valueless, and there are those who don't live by a concept of respect, kindness, and trying to be steadfast in values of fairness and honesty, in regard to themselves as well as the rest of the world, and the confused.

      *https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/01/ban-anti-capitalist-resources-schools-stifle-dissent-orban-hungary

      • Stuart Munro 2.3.1
        11 December 2020 at 11:50 am

        It's an interesting case – but I think it would be unwise to make the law a vehicle for Trans or Terf agitation. Anti racial and/or religious messages of the kind linked to criminal behaviours should be the priority – making the focus of the new law keeping the peace, not gagging inoffensive fools or encouraging skirmishing by fringe groups.

        • greywarshark 2.3.1.1
          11 December 2020 at 12:25 pm

          I think that is right – keep balance. These are unbalanced individuals anyway – it's a mistake to tip them over the edge of reason.

  3. Sanctuary 3
    11 December 2020 at 8:47 am

    Chris Trotter, who lives in a fantasy New Zealand circa 1987, really does seem to like to spend his decline into irrelevance fretting about an imaginary mass movement of Trumpian rural gun owners, doesn't he?

    I mean, they never seem to happen but he is convinced there is an army of good 'ol boy street thugs just waiting for the order from crusher to assemble for a torch lit parade and sweep to power….

    • AB 3.1
      11 December 2020 at 9:01 am

      Chris lets his lyricism get in the way of his ideas. He might simply have the demographic wrong.

    • tc 3.2
      11 December 2020 at 11:20 am

      Trotter's as relevant as a uni lecturer stuck in the 80's, waffling on forgetting the points then looking chuffed with themselves at the end with the verbosity they've unleashed.

      That's why the msm keep going to him as their 'lefty' for the illusion of balance and not spooking the horses.

      • greywarshark 3.2.1
        11 December 2020 at 12:29 pm

        He isn't so narrow and blinkered as some of you commenters here and makes for interesting reading and an opportunity to create different scenarios and get more perspectives on whatever.

        As a kid my mother made me stay at the table till I'd eaten my fish dinner, and I'd sit on and on with a ball of dry stuff in my mouth. I'd sucked out the sauce and now it was too hard to swallow. A certain amount of stuff here brings memory back to those good old days.

        • tc 3.2.1.1
          11 December 2020 at 1:06 pm

          Think you're confusing the actual person with how they make a living in this media environment i.e. provide acceptable copy rather than express their true opinions which possibly wouldn’t be published.

          We all gotta serve somebody as Mr Dylan sang.

          • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1
            11 December 2020 at 1:22 pm

            That is a point tc – he does have to make a living and supplies comment to a number of outlets. One could say though that getting different ideas about politics and society into many people's heads in this country is doing god's work. And because he changes tack, people have to keep reading him to see what he says today. I don't know who you think he serves, but presume you think it isn't Labour. But which part of Labour is so wholly perfect that it shouldn't be tackled, have its jersey pulled, tripped over etc. as it makes its run for a try At The Wrong End of the field.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    11 December 2020 at 8:55 am

    Ah yes, the NZ Initiative. Such lovely fellows, true heirs to the Business Round Table…

    "…In posts on his personal blog, New Zealand Initiative chief editor Nathan Smith attacks Muslims and Jews and espouses incel ideology, Marc Daalder reports

    The chief editor of the prominent New Zealand Initiative think tank runs a far-right blog on the side, where he bashes Muslims, says Jews invite anti-Semitism on themselves and falsely claims that the death toll from the Covid-19 pandemic has been artificially inflated…."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/think-tank-editor-runs-far-right-blog

    • ianmac 4.1
      11 December 2020 at 9:03 am

      "espouses incel ideology" "means "involuntary celibates", are members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one." -Wikipedia

      So they use violence against women.

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.1
        11 December 2020 at 9:15 am

        So they use violence against women.

        Perhaps part of what makes them unattractive in the first place is their barely concealed violence? The violence was in them before they were rejected.

        I've met a few chaps like this…you can just about smell the aggression on them.

        • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1
          11 December 2020 at 12:47 pm

          These right wing extremists have trouble forming relationships with women.So they blame women .

          There are many of these men NZ.

          I know of a least a dozen they all have no children all support conspiracy theories all believe in racial superiority all bar one haven't had any longterm relationships with women.

          Most are trump supporters and antivaxxers.

          They all vehemently hate strong women leaders.

          David Seymour has been courting these extremists with subtle hints dog whistles ,ACT is a product of the business round table.The NZ initiative pushes ACT policy word for word.

      • greywarshark 4.1.2
        11 December 2020 at 1:01 pm

        edit
        Cheapskates, those men could go to prostitutes and build a relationship with one they liked but they don't want to pay for it. So they whine and hate, which is their natural outlook. A saying is that you can't buy love. But it may be the only way they will ever get sex, and romance happens when people find each other lovable, so they will always have difficulty with that aspect. Get real, this is a society that monetises everything so go out and buy whatever you want. Don't expect to get something for nothing.

        There is an interesting aspect though. What woman, or women did they get to know when they were growing up? Our childhood makes the man or woman. My contention once again is if society wants to be better, it needs to give parents the opportunity to show love to their children, and the authorities show love to the parents by helping them, with frequent workshops on parenting tied to weekly child allowance payments, goods when needed, a family holiday once a year with workshops for the parents on how to handle their problems and enjoy successful outcomes with their kids. Women being good mothers and happy in themselves would eventually see happy, capable young men go off into the world. Not these sad types who hate everyone because they dislike themselves, and no-one has ever shown them they are likable.

    • Ad 4.2
      11 December 2020 at 9:14 am

      Why it takes Newsroom to do the job of the SIS outing these guys is beyond me.

      • AB 4.2.1
        11 December 2020 at 10:59 am

        It would be justifiable common-sense to assume that the SIS has a bias in favour of surveilling people who present a credible threat to current accumulations of wealth/power or to the mechanisms for continuing that accumulation. Such as environmentalists, anti-free trade campaigners, anti-povery activists etc, – not racist nutters.

      • tc 4.2.2
        11 December 2020 at 11:27 am

        Same question could be asked of TVNZ/RNZ and should be but don't hold your breath with club member Kris and his former employer.

      • Tricledrown 4.2.3
        11 December 2020 at 2:06 pm

        The SIS is an extension of the CIA and the NZ govt doesn't have much input into its operations.

        That's why they are more interested in left wing greens and environmental activists .As opposed to right wing terrorists who they have deliberately overlooked.

        [ Oh, please!

        The SIS is an extension of the CIA and the NZ govt doesn’t have much input into its operations.

        You assert that as matter of fact. I usually reply with [Link required] but you have completely ignored the last four ones 🙁

        Political neutrality

        The NZSIS is a politically neutral agency. The Intelligence and Security Act 2017, explicitly states that activities will not be carried out for the purpose of promoting or harming the interests of any political party or candidate. The Director-General of Security regularly meets with the Leader of the Opposition to keep them informed about matters of national security.

        The Director-General reports to the Intelligence and Security Committee. Both Government and Opposition parties are represented on this body, whose membership is endorsed by Parliament.

        https://www.nzsis.govt.nz/about-us/

        You are in Pre-Moderation until you provide an adequate response to this Moderation note or you can take an extended Summer break – Incognito]

    • Tricledrown 4.3
      11 December 2020 at 11:51 am

      The business round table / NZ initiative /tax payers union.push a lot of untruths through their media releases.

      When the business roundtable became unpopular they changed their name to try and get back in the public's good books and pretend they are independent.

      They seem to use unsavory characters to push their agenda.

  5. Anne 5
    11 December 2020 at 11:47 am

    If you want to know what really has been been occurring inside NZ's security intelligence network – particularly in relation to the Commission of Inquiry report just released – and Paul Buchanan's overall assessment, then this podcast is a must view:

  6. greywarshark 6
    11 December 2020 at 1:58 pm

    I have enjoyed for a long time the flash mob in 2012 celebrating the city and the Banco Sabadell playing Ode to Joy. To hearten themselves during Covid and all the travails it has caused in 2020 they are promising another public performance.

    It is an advertisement for the bank, for the city, and for their way of life which seems so much more gracious than ours. I am disturbed by the way our education is going, there seems less music, in the universities less Humanities, and in the streets less humanity and limited portions of joy.

    But this is their 2020 promise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tHrpJxinP8

    And this is the former flashmob presentation, a great one and a great advertisement for the bank, well presented, great images and sound etc. and no-one had to cry 'Remember the children'!

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBaHPND2QJg

  7. gsays 7
    11 December 2020 at 2:28 pm

    Hi folks, I was talking to a mate yesty, he is an ambo. He is "not racist" but resents getting "Te Reo rammed down his throat". He was talking about getting a 'Not Guilty' t-shirt that seems to be popular in talk back circles.

    There was a conversation round these parts, a few months back, along why it was inappropriate to be talking about All Lives Matter when The States was dealing with another cop that had murdered an unarmed black man.

    There was a great link provided by a Standardista that summed it all up.

    I am hoping someone can recall and point me in the right (no pun intended) direction.

    • greywarshark 7.1
      11 December 2020 at 2:42 pm

      gsays You could put the keywords in the search line at the top and see what comes up. Then under International in the Archives would be another place to search. Sometimes something is so apt that it should be framed!

  8. greywarshark 8
    11 December 2020 at 2:53 pm

    edit
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/432641/temperatures-drop-to-freezing-levels-in-otago-southland

    Linked news items today – we're in this climate thing together.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/432635/pacific-islands-forum-leaders-urged-to-target-worst-greenhouse-gas-emitters-for-climate-action
    Samoan-born, New Zealand-based climate scientist Penehuro Lefale said the world's reliance on oil, gas and coal and its inability to find alternatives for "clean fuel" was the problem to the climate crisis.

    Forum chair and Tuvalu Prime Minister Kausea Natano called today's virtual summit, and said Pacific leaders had a duty to encourage the world into purposeful action.
    The region's low-lying islands are among the worst affected by the climate crisis with threats of rising seas and increasing cyclones.

    Natano said with islands on the front-line of the climate emergency, the forum's global leadership and advocacy was critical.
    The forum also aimed to put pressure on world leaders.

    and
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/432611/potential-black-sand-mining-operation-in-png-may-threaten-communities-endangered-leatherback-turtles
    Thirty-eight kilometres of black sand beaches north of the town of Madang in Papua New Guinea could be about to be mined, threatening communities and the environment, including nesting grounds for endangered leatherback turtles.

    • greywarshark 9.1
      11 December 2020 at 3:19 pm

      [deleted]

      • greywarshark 9.1.1
        11 December 2020 at 3:57 pm

        [deleted]

        [please don’t post people’s personal details like that have no relevance to the political issue – weka]

        • The Al1en 9.1.1.1
          11 December 2020 at 4:53 pm

          Why are you posting names and addresses?

          • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1
            11 December 2020 at 5:14 pm

            yeah, doxxing (especially on the basis of one line in a newspaper) is a dick move.

            • greywarshark 9.1.1.1.1.1
              11 December 2020 at 5:56 pm

              It's public information. Of interest to thinkers about business in NZ. You people find fault about everything. A big tendency to nitpick. I don’t know what you think you achieve by it.

              [Ignoring the obstinacy of your comment for the moment, posting e-mail addresses here lures bots that trawl through the internet and scrape sites for e-mail addresses. This is a problem because it slows down traffic to and from the site. So, please be a good member of the TS community and help keeping the place tidy and the site running smoothly, thanks – Incognito]

              • weka …
                11 December 2020 at 6:03 pm

                Naming the relevant people involved and posting their publicly available email addresses, along with a political objective (eg emailing the directors involved to lobby them to do right) is ok. Posting individual's personal addresses, and with no clear suggestion of intent, is not ok. Doubly so in situation like this where feelings are already high.

                edited.

                [seeing Incog’s mod note above, a better idea would be to link to email addresses for political action purposes rather than posting on site – weka]

                • greywarshark …
                  11 December 2020 at 8:56 pm

                  I posted them because they were public information. I stated that I was looking at where the directors came from, two were from Bahrain, one from London, and the others all from Invercargill and involved in fertiliser and fishing. It would interest those who follow business behaviour in NZ. I guess that seeing it wan't involving close personal relationships it would fall outside the box for many. This is a strange situation where freedom of information is frowned on. What are feelings high about for goodness sake? I'm talking about ouvea, waste from aluminium manufacturing that is going to cost NZ money to dispose of, after a lot of expensive legal work which the companies involved will wiggle out of paying as with other matters. I'm not involved in the feelings about Trevor Mallard using words that have not been passed by society's censors.

                  [it’s up to you grey. You’ve got the attention of moderators, and you can either do the work to understand where the boundaries are, or you can ignore the boundaries and get escalating moderations. I’m happy to explain more why the boundaries are important, but I’m not going to engage with someone who is clearly wanting an argument with moderators about moderation. See this post for why https://thestandard.org.nz/a-bit-about-how-the-standard-works/ – weka]

                  • The Al1en …
                    11 December 2020 at 9:01 pm

                    I stated that I was looking at where the directors came from, two were from Bahrain, one from London, and the others all from Invercargill

                    If that's all you said I don't think there would have been a problem.

                    Just admit you done wrong, learn, and move on from it.

                  • weka …
                    12 December 2020 at 9:51 am

                    mod note.

              • McFlock …
                11 December 2020 at 6:51 pm

                Why is someone's exact personal address of interest to anyone else – unless you want them to pay a visit?

                Public information is public, but that doesn't mean you have to collate it into a handy list for any idiot looking for fame.

                • greywarshark …
                  11 December 2020 at 8:59 pm

                  Get lost McFlock and The Alien you must be running out of hot air and haughty self-righteousness now at the end of this busy year creating dominance over everybody writing here.

              • Incognito …
                11 December 2020 at 10:05 pm

                See my Moderation note @ 5:56 PM.

          • arkie 9.1.1.1.2
            11 December 2020 at 5:17 pm

            • The Al1en 9.1.1.1.2.1
              11 December 2020 at 5:23 pm

              Reads like an incitement to violence.

              • weka …
                11 December 2020 at 6:12 pm

                Utah Phillips was a pacifist, but I agree that the meme is ambiguous in this context. I'm leaving it now that the personal info is gone.

                • The Al1en …
                  11 December 2020 at 6:18 pm

                  In context with the deleted dox, I drew a similar conclusion as McFlock, but good to know you're on to it

                  • arkie …
                    11 December 2020 at 6:58 pm

                    Less than two weeks before the start of Amazon's annual Prime Day sales promotion is set to start, protestors rallied outside CEO Jeff Bezos' Beverly Hills home to call for higher pay for Amazon warehouse workers and higher taxes on wealthy Americans.

                    Nearly a hundred protesters marched on Sunday, according to organizers of the rally. Former and current Amazon workers were joined by groups including United Teachers Los Angeles, Sunrise LA and Extinction Rebellion, which lobbies for action to combat climate change.

                    "The richest man in the world made $88 billion in the course of the pandemic. It's time to fight back," Chris Smalls, one of the protest's leaders, told CBS MoneyWatch.

                    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-workers-protest-jeff-bezos-house/

                    This is the kind of direct action that Utah Phillips was advocating for, and what I assumed was clear, apologies for the confusion. I don't mind if it is removed.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      11 December 2020 at 7:39 pm

                      I think he is also getting at the 'things' that do not just happen – that those who are killing earth are mostly people not 'things' and these people have names and addresses and through these can be called to account. 'Earth is dying' leaves out that the causes of death are mostly due to people and is likely to invoke a reaction of woe, there is nothing we can do.

                      I don't find it a call to violent action. It is written in active voice to encourage thought – the usual passive sentence construction does not encourage this.

                      People could write letters or peacefully picket.

                      Imagine if the famous speech by Winston Churchill after Dunkirk has been written in passive voice….

                      'We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets……'

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.2.2
              11 December 2020 at 5:23 pm

              And in the days of the long-tail of the internet, empty rhetoric can become action.

    • Shanreagh 9.2
      11 December 2020 at 7:47 pm

      A better bet might be that that before this stuff is finally removed the mighty Mataura will reach flood levels that will again threaten the storage.