Open mike 11/01/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 11th, 2013 - 195 comments
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195 comments on “Open mike 11/01/2013 ”

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  1. Matthew Hooton 1
    11 January 2013 at 7:21 am

    Interesting piece by Chris Trotter at http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2013/01/behind-mask-whos-backing-david-shearer.html?m=1

    I disagree, though, when he says Cunliffe is capable of forging a new political, economic and social consensus. I think he had three years to do that as Labour finance spokesman and failed to make any impact. Some might say he didn’t have support but Ruth Richardson managed to completely transform National as opposition finance spokesperson between 1987 and 1990 and that was against the wishes of the party hierarchy. I also don’t really think Cunliffe is genuinely as left as he tells activists. I think that’s just to give them a bit of a thrill.

    • mickysavage 1.1
      11 January 2013 at 7:25 am

      Thanks for your considered and helpful views Matthew.

      I am sure they are motivated by the best of intentions and the desire to make the next Government more left wing and sensitive to the environmental issues that we face, particularly in relation to climate change.

      EDIT

      I am also interested in your response to this passage in Trotter’s post:

      “Hence the near unanimous hatred directed at Cunliffe by the mouthpieces of the neoliberal establishment. Fran O’Sullivan, Jane Clifton and Matthew Hooton have gone to extraordinary lengths to besmirch Cunliffe’s character and ridicule his ideas. In a pincer movement with Shearer’s caucus allies they have attempted to cast the Member for New Lynn as a sly, egomaniacal (if ultimately inept) Cassius, plotting constantly to bring down Labour’s sensible Caesar.”

      • Matthew Hooton 1.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 7:54 am

        Not sure what “extraordinary lengths” I have gone to. I have always thought he is a nice enough fellow. It’s the people at MFAT and in Labour who I know who have worked with him to seem to hate him for his pomposity and laziness – but I don’t know him well enough to have personally observed these traits.

        • mickysavage 1.1.1.1
          11 January 2013 at 7:59 am

          So are you saying that you went to some lengths to besmirch Cunliffe’s character but they were not extraordinary lengths?

          • Matthew Hooton 1.1.1.1.1
            11 January 2013 at 8:03 am

            No, I’m saying I haven’t besmirched his character at all.

            • Rhinoviper 1.1.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2013 at 8:08 am

              I know who have worked with him to seem to hate him for his pomposity and laziness – but I don’t know him well enough to have personally observed these traits.

              Christ – disingenuous or what? “I’m not going to say bad things about him, but wait – I’m going to pass on nasty gossip about him from other people”.

              Could you be just a bit less obvious?

              • bad12 …
                11 January 2013 at 8:29 am

                It’s obvious what’s got Hooten miffed at David Cunliffe, it’s in the ‘words i don’t know him well enough’,

                Obviously Cunliffe treats Hooten as He should be treated, like LEPERS where treated prior to enlightened medical treatments…

              • Colonial Viper …
                11 January 2013 at 8:43 am

                Hey Hoots…despite what you have written, Trotter’s piece wasn’t about Cunliffe. It was about Shearer. Stop prancing around the point.

              • QoT …
                11 January 2013 at 5:10 pm

                If Hooton were in Parliament, he’d set all-new records for getting thrown out of the House for constant “I personally wouldn’t call the Member a Nazi because it’s unparliamentary, but …” shenanigans.

              • Tim …
                11 January 2013 at 10:15 pm

                Pointless Rhino. Shit. Hill. Pushing.
                I hope I’m still around when little piggies start squeeling. (Who MOI?????, M-O-I????)

            • mickysavage 1.1.1.1.1.2
              11 January 2013 at 8:11 am

              So just so I can understand things Matthew you have said today:

              “I think he had three years to do that as Labour finance spokesman and failed to make any impact.”

              “I also don’t really think Cunliffe is genuinely as left as he tells activists. I think that’s just to give them a bit of a thrill.”

              “It’s the people at MFAT and in Labour who I know who have worked with him to seem to hate him for his pomposity and laziness ”

              “He can’t be much of a politician if he can be “censored” for four years”

              AND

              “I’m saying I haven’t besmirched his character at all.”

              Please reconcile these statements.

              • Matthew Hooton …
                11 January 2013 at 8:26 am

                All just statements of fact

                • mickysavage …
                  11 January 2013 at 8:38 am

                  So you repeating gossip leaked to you by ABC is a statement of fact?

                  I fear Matthew that you are reinforcing Trotter’s statement about you by your comments.

                  Is this intended?

                  Or is this a sly double play where you besmirch Cunliffe and Shearer at the same time?

                • Tim …
                  11 January 2013 at 10:40 pm

                  And if ya don’t believe me – listen to Rinnie Ryan! She’ll set you str8

            • felixviper 1.1.1.1.1.3
              11 January 2013 at 8:26 am

              Hahaha, I guess it makes sense that you don’t remember anything you say on radiolive or nine to noon.

              If you did, you’d never walk into a studio again.

              • David H …
                11 January 2013 at 10:45 am

                Hootens got Keys disease. It’s the memory that goes first, and the bullshit just runs down their chins!

              • Tim …
                11 January 2013 at 10:53 pm

                TIM!!!! (@ Karol and the womderfuly like=moded) /…….I thought you said you wern’t gunna comment nemor…….
                True. It’s just that stating the bleeid ng obvious is SO hard – worse than giving up smoking.
                When is it that Spin Doctores like Hooten and others are not actually as clever as most would have you believe -I’ll wager most think the guy is actually irrelevant and the past participle of te spent brigade (“going fprward”).
                The real problem is a defunct MSM. ………being challenged daily

            • bad12 1.1.1.1.1.4
              11 January 2013 at 8:38 am

              Oh so you don’t think that, ‘not knowing Cunliffe well enough to observe these traits’ while at the same time claiming that that you ‘think’ that Cunliffe is not as ‘left’ as what He tells activists isn’t besmirching Cunliffe’s character,

              It’s just a series of unfounded pieces of Bullshit dredged up from the mind of someone that when the high priests of Torydom were dishing out the silver spoons shoved your one a long way into the wrong orifice where it’s obviously still lodged…

            • David H 1.1.1.1.1.5
              11 January 2013 at 10:42 am

              Jesus Hooten Can you even lie straight in bed???

              • Rhinoviper …
                11 January 2013 at 10:42 pm

                Nah, he’s so twisted, he needs two assistants to help him screw his pants on in the morning.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  11 January 2013 at 10:47 pm

                  Eeeew.

                  • Rhinoviper …
                    11 January 2013 at 11:13 pm

                    >:)

                    Seriously tho’, his associations with neonazis and racists is something far less funny and something that needs exposure to sunlight.

                    I personally don’t think that Hooton is a neo-nazi… I just see that he’s a completely amoral money-grubber who has no qualms about shilling for work amongst them until the media spotlight shows just how evil they are and how that’s not a “good look” for Effluvium.

        • Jenny Kirk 1.1.1.2
          11 January 2013 at 8:28 am

          Hooten says he doesn’t know him (Cunliffe) well enough to have personally observed these traits (pomposity and laziness).

          Well I have observed totally different traits in Cunliffe, and I do not believe he is what the MSM and others are making him out to be – lazy, traitorous, unlikeable etc etc etc.

          As an example :
          We had an extraordinary public meeting in Whangarei during the last (2011) election campaign.
          We held it in a school hall in the middle of a Decile 1, low income, state housing area with a population predominantly Maori., and had a large audience.

          Cunliffe gave a clear and convincing presentation on economics – world economics, NZ trade , and what could be done to fix our tattered economy. He didn’t “talk down” to his audience, he put in a few jokes every so often, he answered questions with facts/figures in such a way that everyone understood him.

          The feedback after that public meeting was – no-one had ever told them these details in such an easy to understand manner before, could he come again, and what a great informative evening it had been for them all.

          You cannot tell me that a man who is able to deliver such a presentation to such an audience and get such a response is either pompous or lazy. He would have had to work hard to put such a presentation together. He would have had to change the presentation to suit that particular audience. He was friendly, affable, and articulate.

          • Jane 1.1.1.2.1
            11 January 2013 at 8:35 am

            Maybe, but there is that disturbing rant he had at the Otara market during the last election campaign that’s on YouTube. Will have put some middle ground voters off and being on the web in will never go away.

            • bad12 1.1.1.2.1.1
              11 January 2013 at 8:40 am

              Could you provide a link to this disturbing rant please???…

              • Colonial Viper …
                11 January 2013 at 8:44 am

                It was a film of Cunliffe kicking the Right Wing’s ass. So yeah, they’d be disturbed haha

                • Olwyn …
                  11 January 2013 at 8:52 am

                  I looked for it but now can’t find it. However, I have seen it and it is nothing to be disturbed about. I think the claim at the time was “it will not appeal to the middle class.” I took it to mean that wing of the middle class who are presently on the gravy train and do not want to see the flow of gravy disrupted.

                • bad12 …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:00 am

                  LOLZ, perhaps i should send the above commenter a tape of some of the ‘discussion’ that goes on in this house,

                  She would then fully ‘appreciate’ what a ‘disturbing rant’ really sounds like…

                • Chris …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:04 am

                  To be fair it was neither disturbing or really kicking the right wing’s ass. He just ran through Labour’s slogans and normal accusations that were repeated all the time through the election. It was passionate and reasonably good but nothing too special – Whaleoil etc picked it up and ran with it because he put on a polynesian accent and that basically makes him the ku klux klan. Here is the link:

              • felixviper …
                11 January 2013 at 8:56 am

                It was one of those whale-oil type “scandals” where only the most twisted right-wing hacks can work out what’s scandalous about it.

                To anyone else it was just a video of David campaigning. Oh the horror. It’s also not at the Otara market, that’s just right-wing shorthand for brown people in Auckland.

              • Matthew Hooton …
                11 January 2013 at 9:03 am

                It’s here: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=qvenqcfX1j8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqvenqcfX1j8&gl=GB

                He uses a faux Polynesian accent ‘cos he’s talking to brown people

                • The Al1en …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:13 am

                  You use a faux political commentator accent, so what’s your point, here?

                • bad12 …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:34 am

                  If you think that that is a ‘faux Polynesian’ accent then your obviously not as intelligent as what you think you are,(but then we all know that except you),

                  What Cunliffe is doing there is slowing down His speech and over-emphasizing some words in an effort to give as much understanding as possible to what was obviously an audience of mixed race where presumably many would have English as a second language,

                  If you want ‘faux Polynesia’ check out Seone’s Wedding or any of the other stuff done by that particular crew for TV,

                  That particular tape of Cunliffe makes your radio voice of ‘large plum in the mouth as you talk down to the peasants’ sound like the rantings of an old English Lord inescapably addicted to Heroin pontificating on the sins of the hired help when all the time your nothing but a over-paid leach at the trough paid to goose the ego’s of the major suckers of the States teat by telling them that every thing they do is just fine…

                  • Rogue Trooper …
                    11 January 2013 at 8:09 pm

                    thats funny bad

                    • bad12 …
                      11 January 2013 at 11:20 pm

                      LOLZ, the turd i was addressing the comment at doesn’t seem to think so, really needs His sense of humor updated as well as a few of His other personal traits like His propensity to talk s**t….

                  • Rhinoviper …
                    11 January 2013 at 11:26 pm

                    ,(but then we all know that except you),

                    “Thick and full of himself” as even his own clients say according to The Hollow Men

                    I wonder how it feels to have the people whose club he aspires to join snigger at him…

                • David H …
                  11 January 2013 at 10:50 am

                  I would rather listen to Cunliffe’s truths, than Hootons LIES!

                • fatty …
                  11 January 2013 at 1:14 pm

                  He uses a faux Polynesian accent ‘cos he’s talking to brown people

                  What a racist thing to assume Matthew, you should be ashamed of yourself…
                  As bad12 has pointed out, Cunliffe was speaking to a crowd of people that may have had English as their second language, he was using a loudspeaker, and the crowd were dispersed so the talking was slowed down.
                  Its a racist observation Matthew…hang your head in shame

                • Cactus Kate …
                  11 January 2013 at 7:30 pm

                  Come on Matthew, DC is adaptable.
                  As are you when you want $ off the pinkos to hawk their silly ideas.

                • Saarbo …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:41 pm

                  Cunliffe went to Pukenui School in Te Kuiti, bro he’s probably been putting on a pakeha accent and the maori accent comes pretty naturally!

                  Matthew, what a wanky thing to bring up, sort yourself out!

                • North …
                  12 January 2013 at 5:42 am

                  And you Matty screech just a bit in a distinctly effete way when someone’s got ya.

                  Cathryn Ryan on Nine to Noon repeatedly has to chide you for the entitled wee schoolboy you are with your overtalking and cat-fighty style. Never heard it myself but that’s…

                  …What…I’m…Told…By…The…Connected…People…I…Know…Smirk…Smirk.

              • higherstandard …
                11 January 2013 at 9:04 am

                15 sec search on google will do it every time.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvenqcfX1j8

                Not sure what is disturbing about it – pretty standard political rhetoric.

                • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                  11 January 2013 at 9:12 am

                  It is the faux maori accent, and I would call it revealing, rather than disturbing.

                  • felixviper …
                    11 January 2013 at 9:23 am

                    lolz. That sneaky left wing bastard, trying to pass as polynesian.

                    I think it’s revealing too, but not of Cunliffe.

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:27 am

                      Yes. It is so important, when one is talking to the fuzzy wuzzies to talk in language they understand. Come down to their level, and such. One must refer to “da rich fullas” rather than “the rich” otherwise they will simply not understand what one is saying. And if they do not understand what one is saying one will not be able to protect them.

                    • rosy …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:35 am

                      Bolger used to ape accents all the time. I sort of thought it was a subconsciously empathetic thing.

                      Although I couldn’t stand Bolger as PM, he was surprisingly egalitarian in some ways. Just not smart enough to realise his government policies were trashing the poor.

                    • felixviper …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:43 am

                      Ole, the conclusions you jump to are exactly what I meant by “revealing”.

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:58 am

                      OK. I am thick, I get it. I wonder what accent Cunliffe would employ when talking to me.

                    • lprent []
                      11 January 2013 at 12:34 pm

                      I’m not sure that anyone else can descend to that level. Interpreting and understanding “Ook” is a hell of a lot easier than expressing a simple sentence in it. It is a “subtle” language you have mastered and it has been quite apparent for some time that you don’t understand English.

                      (my apologies to Pratchett – but that one just begged for it :twisted:)

                    • McFlock …
                      11 January 2013 at 12:21 pm

                      no accent, just very small words.

                    • QoT …
                      11 January 2013 at 5:16 pm

                      I’m reminded of a WWII doco that I had to switch off because it was so overwrought about Hitler’s evilness (yes, the man was evil, but I think we don’t need that repeated every thirty seconds).

                      One of their arguments was (read it in a conspiracy-theory American accent): “He would change the way he spoke to appeal to different audiences!!!!!”

                      If you’re criticising Cunliffe for using “fellas” in one context when he may well say “folks” or “people” or “wankers” in another, I sure hope you speak to your dear old granny at morning tea the way you talk to your mates at the pub after a few. Because otherwise you’d be terrible hypocrites, and also linguistic freaks.

                    • Lanthanide …
                      12 January 2013 at 12:05 am

                      lol QoT.

                  • weka …
                    11 January 2013 at 9:29 am

                    What Maori or Polynesian accent? He uses some Maori words, is that what you mean?

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:31 am

                      Like “fulla”?

                    • bad12 …
                      11 January 2013 at 9:44 am

                      Gormless,(obviously), it’s fella not fulla, your the only one round here thats fulla and i will leave you with the easy task of inserting what comes after the fulla…

                    • weka …
                      11 January 2013 at 10:05 am

                      Gormless, are you objecting to Cunliffe using the word, or how he said it? I couldn’t detect any obvious accent other than a Noo Zeelund one. And why object to fella/fulla? Why not object to his using the words Maori words like tamariki etc? You’re grasping at some pretty insubstantial straws if you think the use of one word, however it is said, means anything.

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      11 January 2013 at 10:30 am

                      I am not objecting to anything. He is putting on an accent to appeal to his audience. It says something about how he views them. That is all.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 January 2013 at 10:36 am

                      Yeah it was brilliant off the cuff oratory work. Did you mistake Cunliffe for someone of Pasifika origin?

                    • higherstandard …
                      11 January 2013 at 10:39 am

                      “brilliant off the cuff oratory work”

                      I hope you’re joking, Cunliffe like all our current crop of politicians is a pretty hopeless orator, the most recent good orator in NZ politics was David Lange in my opinion.

                  • Olwyn …
                    11 January 2013 at 9:36 am

                    Revealing of what? You and Matthew Hooton are grasping at straws here, as was Whale oil in the first place. I draw your attention to a comment made earlier this week by Max Moss, who is on Cunliffe’s LEC. This is a person who actually knows Cunliffe, and certainly runs counter to the claims of pomposity and laziness, as well as the suggestion of inauthenticity.

                    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07012013/#comment-570340

                    One thing I do know about Cunliffe is that you can actually chat with him as a regular man in a room, without the vulgar sense of his “working the room” or trying to “win them over.”

                    • David H …
                      11 January 2013 at 10:55 am

                      And when he had the ‘chat’ on the Herald as did other politicians. I found that he was the easiest to understand, because he does not over explain things, he keeps it simple.

            • Murray Olsen 1.1.1.2.1.2
              11 January 2013 at 4:40 pm

              It disturbs me that anyone not in the WhaleSpew Army could be disturbed by Cunliffe’s Otara speech. He’s on top of a vehicle with a megaphone and speaks clearly and slowly in his own voice. If you want to hear a fake accent, just listen to Key being a regla blok prendin to be prumster of Noozillid.

              • blue leopard …
                11 January 2013 at 5:40 pm

                @ Murray Olsen

                hmm, don’t think Mr Key is pretending….he just can’t speak very well….lacks ability to enunciate…just thought I’d mention that….I agree with your comment apart from that….

              • North …
                12 January 2013 at 6:01 am

                Well done Olsen except you miss the times when Key dumps the bloke impersonation in favour of the dude persona……to wit his use of the word “munted” when he gets on some rubbish guffawing laughter every 6 seconds radio show.

                How’s that for sham ? Trying to paint himself up as an out there dude tradey or something.

                Bloody embarrassing. Cringey stuff. And for you Oleo…..must you scrape the bottom of your own barrel so ?

            • Jenny Kirk 1.1.1.2.1.3
              12 January 2013 at 8:10 am

              Goodness Jane – (and Hooten et al) that wasn’t a “disturbing rant” Cunliffe gave at the Otara market (I’ve just watched/listened to it on U-Tube Sat 12 Jan). That was a basic street corner speech which is typical of any election campaign. And I didn’t hear Cunliffe say “da rich fullas” as a putdown of bro language. I heard him say “the rich fellas” which is typical NZ (Pakeha) talk. You guys are imagining or making up things about Cunliffe without any foundation whatsoever.

        • Dr Terry 1.1.1.3
          11 January 2013 at 9:49 am

          MH – I would say that your first comment above comes as close as possible to uninformed “character assassination”. Oh, yes, indeed, you sure do go to “extraordinary lengths” to revile him, and then have the gall to confess “I don’t know him well enough to have personally observed these traits” (of your imagination). There are few more condescending “put-downs” than to describe Cunliffe as “a nice enough fellow” (with the implied BUT). Exactly how many people at MFAT and in Labour do you actually know – or who would want to know you? Name the people who “seem” (N.B.) to hate him (what kind of people indulge in any kind of “hatred”?)

          Please take care to check facts against delusions.

    • bad12 1.2
      11 January 2013 at 7:32 am

      Do you really, think that is, for instance what ‘impact’ has David Parker had as Labour Finance spokesperson,

      I think that if a person of your ilk supports David Shearer as the Labour Party leader then the members of Labour are right in having a really close look at just where His sentiments lie in the left/right paradigm of politics,

      I doubt whether you have actually even met a genuine ‘member of the left’ so as to give you the perspective to judge who genuinely holds left-wing views,

      I think you should crawl back into the dark spaces of the smelly, slime encrusted sewers which is your normal habitat and desist from provoking the likes of me to amounts of anger that at the least are bad for my health…

      • higherstandard 1.2.1
        11 January 2013 at 7:39 am

        I’m always interested what people think is a “genuine member” of the left or right, as one who is generally accused of being a RWNJ on this site could you enlighten me.

        • bad12 1.2.1.1
          11 January 2013 at 7:57 am

          F off over to the sewer, there is that enough ‘enlightenment’ for you…

          • higherstandard 1.2.1.1.1
            11 January 2013 at 8:21 am

            Very enlightening.

            • bad12 1.2.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2013 at 8:47 am

              Here, this might help, STFU, F off over to the Sewer where you will be aquainted with the definition of any number of Right Wing Nut Jobs,

              Read the pages of the Standard and you will be aquainted with the wide ranging views of ‘genuine lefty’s plus the views of the odd Right Wing Nut Job, even a 5 year old could spot the difference…

        • felixviper 1.2.1.2
          11 January 2013 at 8:35 am

          hs, do you really not understand that Matthyawn isn’t a genuine lefty, and that everything he says or writes is paid for, and that he’s just here to disrupt and sow confusion?

          • higherstandard 1.2.1.2.1
            11 January 2013 at 8:43 am

            Felix

            1. Yes I do know that
            2. I doubt that very much
            3. There’s no doubt he enjoys coming here for a bit of sport.

            I’d still like a genuine reply to my question to Mr bad12

            • bad12 1.2.1.2.1.1
              11 January 2013 at 8:49 am

              Try the answer at 8.47am, that genuine enough for you…

              • higherstandard …
                11 January 2013 at 8:58 am

                No just another mindless rant.

                In case you hadn’t noticed there’s some fairly diverse views among the mix at this site, although sometimes it does resemble a rather vitriolic echo chamber when the locals choose to attack someone.

                For example the site sysop is a lefty voter with a self proclaimed ‘right’ lean in economics, then you have the likes of DTB who would suggest that most ‘lefties’ on this site are rampantly to the ‘right’.

                Hence my request for you to define your view of ‘left’ and ‘right’.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  11 January 2013 at 5:21 pm

                  For example the site sysop is a lefty voter with a self proclaimed ‘right’ lean in economics, then you have the likes of DTB who would suggest that most ‘lefties’ on this site are rampantly to the ‘right’.

                  Actually, I don’t. I happen to think that most of those on the left here are actually on the left I just happen to think that the Labour Party is on the right.

            • felixviper 1.2.1.2.1.2
              11 January 2013 at 9:09 am

              lolz hs, I’m sure you know that Hoots is a paid lobbyist and spin merchant. I’m sure you know that when he’s paid to appear in the media and talk politics he’s also being paid by his clients to do so in their interests. I find it inconceivable that you think he switches off the machine just for the standard.

            • higherstandard 1.2.1.2.1.3
              11 January 2013 at 10:10 am

              I find it inconceivable that anyone would be paid to post or comment at this site.

              • Colonial Viper …
                11 January 2013 at 10:21 am

                I find it inconceivable that anyone would be paid to impart PR spin, but they say the world is a mysterious place.

                • higherstandard …
                  11 January 2013 at 10:26 am

                  Indeed, but apparently government and councils are full of them funded by the tax and ratepayer ?

                  • McFlock …
                    11 January 2013 at 12:26 pm

                    until they make their bones enough to go work for National party HQ.

                    It’s the only form of publicly-funded education that national actually support.

                    • higherstandard …
                      11 January 2013 at 12:38 pm

                      I certainly don’t believe there were as many PR hacks in councils and government twenty or even ten years ago – it’s like HR departments they seen to have proliferated during the last couple of decades and are overflowing with weasels.

                      Things seem to have got along OK before they all came along……. grumpy old man rant over and out !

              • QoT …
                11 January 2013 at 5:18 pm

                And that’s probably true, hs … but do you really think Matthew either

                (a) completely believes everything he says when being paid for it, which is why he says exactly the same stuff when commenting in a personal capacity or

                (b) isn’t smart enough to protect his paid-for “unbiased pundit” brand by continuing to say the same shit he’s paid for out-of-hours?

                • Rhinoviper …
                  11 January 2013 at 10:09 pm

                  “Astroturfing”

                  Trouble is, he’s shit at it. I get the impression that he does it just to show his equally ignorant clients that he’s delivering value for money.

    • Another Viper 1.3
      11 January 2013 at 7:38 am

      Jaysus Matthew, for someone who makes a living out of political commentary you are woefully poorly informed. You are a shocking dunderhead. Go to the corner.
      The dogs on the street knew that Cunliffe was censored throughout the Goff era. He did all the work and had to leave the speeches for Phil Goff to try to build his leader ratings. The same shite continued under Shearer.

      • Rhinoviper 1.3.1
        11 January 2013 at 7:50 am

        for someone who makes a living out of political commentary you are woefully poorly informed

        No, Hooton doesn’t make his living from commentary – that just helps his media profile. He’s a professional spin doctor and lobbyist – a free-market Goebbels if you like. You can be sure that his company, “Effluvium” or whatever it’s called is not woefully poorly informed. You can be sure that it – and he – is very well paid. Hooton doesn’t shit without someone being sent an invoice.

        • David H 1.3.1.1
          11 January 2013 at 12:10 pm

          “Effluvium” Or Effluent? Oh well it’s all shit to me.

          • Rhinoviper 1.3.1.1.1
            11 January 2013 at 10:07 pm

            Actually, he called it “Excelsium”, which is something someone who lives in his mum’s basement would call his avatar in World of Warcraft. “He’s Excelsium, and he’s a fifth-level mage and he… he, he has a magical sword, and he shoots acid from his fingers! He’s, like TOTALLY AWESOME!”

            Hooton is really just a frustrated teenager at heart.

        • Rogue Trooper 1.3.1.2
          11 January 2013 at 8:14 pm

          🙂

      • Matthew Hooton 1.3.2
        11 January 2013 at 7:50 am

        He can’t be much of a politician if he can be “censored” for four years. There were plenty in the National hierarchy trying to “censor” Richardson but she found ways around that. That’s how you achieve political, economic and social change. Change agents let alone revolutionaries don’t wait for permission from the existing order.

        • mickysavage 1.3.2.1
          11 January 2013 at 7:55 am

          Interested in your response Matthew to Trotter’s claim that you are attempting to besmirch Cunliffe and this represents an unholy alliance between the mouthpieces of the neoliberal establishment and ABC.

          • Matthew Hooton 1.3.2.1.1
            11 January 2013 at 7:58 am

            I think that’s nonsense

            • bad12 1.3.2.1.1.1
              11 January 2013 at 8:11 am

              Has the pay-check from RadioNZ National dried up over the summer break and you are now bored so have to drag your pompous ‘silver spoon’ banality into the Standard,

              The ‘smooch-fest’ between you and Williams on that piece of pathetic puffery makes you sound like you have something hard lodged within the rear of your anatomy and are in dire need of an urgent flushing,

              Your support of Shearer as Labour leader on it’s own should be enough for the caucus to trigger the Party wide vote on the issue of leadership…

            • Bill 1.3.2.1.1.2
              11 January 2013 at 8:23 am

              I think that’s nonsense.

              So is trying to set the tone of the ‘ts’s’ discussion around a piece that was already linked to yesterday by diong a 7:21 am link to it. (ie top of the open mike).

              I could be wrong Mathew. But I don’t recall you instigating discussion on topics here before. Don’t you normally just respond with a view to obscufate and derail? I think you do.

              But not this time. Which could be an indication of how much ‘nonsense’ it is to suggest you and your ilk are desperate to elevate Shearer and (by extension) an ongoing neo-liberal trajectory.

              ‘Shearer is a good guy. Labour’s sleepwalking plan is a fine plan. Cunliffe is dead in the water. Cunliffe is allegedly incompetant and lazy and arrogant – Cunliffe isn’t liked’ – and I (Mathew Hooten) am more than happy to keep on referencing those allegations and opinions in one way or another ie, to besmirch without actually besmirching in a direct fashion.

              Oh. Apart from the wee nuggets, like in your above comments, where you directly suggest that Cunliffe is a crap politician.

              And, of course, mustn’t forget the obvious fact that Rhinoviper points out (again) – this time around at 1.3.1. on this thread.

        • The Al1en 1.3.2.2
          11 January 2013 at 9:01 am

          “That’s how you achieve political, economic and social change.”

          As opposed to donations in plain brown envelopes, swipe cards to parliament, policy for cash, and dodgy in-house agenda driven focus/polling groups like we have now.
          Care to declare/deny any emails, texts, call logs or meetings?

          “Change agents let alone revolutionaries don’t wait for permission from the existing order.”

          I’m suspecting you know as much about change agents and revolutionaries as you do about David Cunliffe.
          When real change comes, and it will, if you’re not on the first plane out with the other smug rich pricks, I’m sure they’ll be a spot up against the proverbial wall for your efforts.

        • Dr Terry 1.3.2.3
          11 January 2013 at 9:55 am

          Some politicians being “censored” indicates that they are, in fact, doing a bloody good job! You are (even now!) an admirer of Richardson? Enough said!

        • vivaciousviper 1.3.2.4
          11 January 2013 at 10:05 am

          Hooton, you give Richardson as an example of being ‘censorsed’ the truth being more like
          some nats thought her policies were detrimental to the health and wellbeing of those
          it would affect,(although it would be a first in the right thinking of the people) indeed
          her policies caused difficulties for a huge number of people,
          when you remove $50pw off beneficiaries of course stress will follow,it shows
          that Shipley/Richardson women could not give a continental about peoples lives and as it turns out they didn’t,but Shipley/Richardson could claim tens of thousands a year in perks and tax payer paid benefits, spot the difference.
          While i am at it Shipley and Richardson left a $20 billion debt, is that good financial
          management of tax payer dollars ?
          Incidently,a peice of good journalism would be to find out what ex politicians are
          still recieving tax payer funded air travel and remuneration, i understand it continues
          to get paid until the leave this mortal coil.
          This while beneficiaries are being targeted by your idol Shearer re: painter on the roof
          Shearer’s credentials for the leadership of Labour are lacking and wanting.
          The defence of Shearer by the right of politics and media raises questions about
          his true allegiance, please, tell us more about ‘that’ barbie.
          Cunliffe has been ‘censored’ by the Right clique inside caucus, even though he
          won 9 out of the 10 meetings in a membership vote for the leadership, his shackles
          are still on tightly and he cannot be seen to be doing anything unless the ‘clique’ give
          him permission.

          • aerobubble 1.3.2.4.1
            11 January 2013 at 3:29 pm

            A manager in ChCh was bemoaning the quality of staff available, she wanted government to do something about people like the lady who took a break and never came back.

            Now objectively, not something you’ll find in a third market (one on the edge of the world). Surely a manager is expected to know her customers and her employees, and that if an employee walk off the job she should have some idea why. Like Shearer, why doesn’t he know why the roofer was up there while on sicky?

            Aging population, and better pay conditions in OZ mean there are fewer young people entering the work market and those that are around want to be skilled up so they can fly the ditch (only way they will own their own home). Scarcity means managers like her have to offer more, have to be aware of her employees needs, to get skills and move on to better jobs. Instead we have this blame culture from the rich, that somehow its the poor who created the economic malaise, the young who have the expertise to run the country, the sick who shouldn’t be fixing their damn roof since their TB stopped them working.

            I think what passes as informed debate on TV and radio is bunkum, neoliberal talking points selected to keep wages down, keep bonuses up and power to change the econmic out of the hands of those who would change it (to serve the needs of the people).

    • Saarbo 1.4
      11 January 2013 at 8:56 am

      Thanks Matthew. I subscribe to Murray Ball’s quote.

    • weka 1.5
      11 January 2013 at 9:41 am

      Nice little distraction by Hooten there. However, I’m still trying to figure out why Richardson ignoring the party she belonged to, and setting her own agenda, is considered a good thing. Of all the attempts at misdirection in this thread by Hooten, that’s the one that stands out for me. It’s the idea that an individual can go against the party’s wishes and take in a different direction, and that that is not only acceptable but desirable. That idea isn’t about Cunliffe, it’s about Shearer.

  2. KhandallaViper 2
    11 January 2013 at 7:29 am

    The New Zealand Labour Party must find a way to achieve reform and renewal through it’s members and affiliates. Only then will we have a strong Labour victory in 2014 that will enable the execution major changes: changes that will take the country on a new path to health and prosperity.

    A year ago the launch of the Constitutional Review was greeted enthusiastically by the members. Members, branches, LECs, Sector groups and NZ Councillors all worked hard to get a number of significant proposals to the Conference.

    The Conference was memorable for two reasons:

    -the delegates passionately debated the key items and the balance of power shifted to the membership and affiliates…….on paper.

    -a potentially great Conference and subsequent passionate injection of positive activity was distorted by the damaging play to marginalise Cunliffe.

    We need to find the positives from the Conference and get past the destructive cr*p formulated by a few Machiavellians in the Caucus.

    • bad12 2.1
      11 January 2013 at 7:49 am

      My view of the constitutional changes is that if the Membership want the Parliamentary Labour MP’s to adhere to Labour Party policy,(especially while in Government), it is the membership at the annual Labour Party Conference who should vote whether or not to ‘trigger’ a Party wide vote on the issue,

      Further to that it is my view that the Party wide vote should also elect the Cabinet in Labour lead Governments…

  3. One Tāne Huna 3
    11 January 2013 at 8:07 am

    Interesting: Monbiot on violent crime and lead poisoning.

    • McFlock 3.1
      11 January 2013 at 12:37 pm

      intriguing.

      Normally I take such reports with a grain of salt, but then so does Monbiot. And it certainly seems to be the gist of the evidence.

  4. Jane 4
    11 January 2013 at 8:17 am

    There has been a lot of discussion about the wider member leader vote, the 40% + 1 threshold and how it might be triggered in February. If it does get triggered, how every it happens what is the process then? Is there a set timeline? A postal ballot will take time to setup, candidates will need time to decide if they want to stand, time for campaigning, the voting process may take a few weeks. What is the best case for it to be complete? I’d say at the minimum six weeks, most likely it will drag on for 12+ weeks.

    Who leads the party while all this is going on? Their is a reasonable chance it could all get toxic, DS, DC openly combatitive, caucus split, Patrick Gower asking everybody and anybody who’s side they are on every single night and earnestly analyzing every phrase, utterance or look. The Greens trying to stay out of it but getting more involved, Winston taking shots, backbenchers leaking and National sitting quietly and watching with glee.

    When it’s over and the winner announced then what? Will the vanquished need to resign? If DC wins will it have got so bad that Mallard, King and Hipkins all go? If DC loses how many may go? Byelections towards the end of the year? It could dominate all year!

    All looks very scary but then the alternative is DS stays.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      11 January 2013 at 9:04 am

      So many doubts Jane! Have some faith in the uncertainty of democracy!

      The only alternative is the certainty and comfort of AUTOCRACY and we wouldn’t want that now, would we. Would we?

    • David H 4.2
      11 January 2013 at 12:52 pm

      “Mallard, King and Hipkins all go” They should have gone last election. But no there they sit, actively fucking up the Labour party for their own ends. Fucking Parasites. The sooner they go the better for all, and they can take some of the other dead wood and dinosaurs with them! And as for Gower how can he report if he’s just told to fuck off in no uncertain terms, every time he asks a question??

    • David H 4.3
      11 January 2013 at 12:54 pm

      “Mallard, King and Hipkins all go” They should have gone last election. But no there they sit, actively fucking up the Labour party for their own ends. Fucking Parasites. The sooner they go the better for all, and they can take some of the other dead wood and dinosaurs with them! And as for Gower how can he report if he’s just told to fuck off in no uncertain terms, every time he asks a question??

      Damn Internal server error 500 rears it’s ugly head again.

  5. Te Reo Putake 5
    11 January 2013 at 8:34 am

    Never underestimate the stupidity of an american radio talk show host. If Alex Jones was slightly smarter, he could be a moron.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2013/jan/08/alex-jones-pro-gun-tirade-piers-morgan-video

    • muzza 5.1
      11 January 2013 at 8:57 am

      If I had to place a bet, it would be on that both Morgan and Jones are considerably more *informed/trained* and cogent of affairs than you could ever wish/pretend to be!

      Keep spinning bro, and watch out for actors!

      • felixviper 5.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 9:10 am

        Have you watched it? The dude’s a fucking idiot.

      • Te Reo Putake 5.1.2
        11 January 2013 at 9:16 am

        They’re both right wing commentators, muzza, so your support for them is curious (or is it?). Morgan has the moral highground on the gun question though and has gone up in my estimation just for having the guts to take on the NRA and its apologists.

        • Chris 5.1.2.1
          11 January 2013 at 9:35 am

          I don’t think Piers Morgan comes across as right wing – no idea how he votes or anything, but he has always seemed fairly centrist when interviewing.

          • The Al1en 5.1.2.1.1
            11 January 2013 at 9:48 am

            News of the world editor, appointed by murdoch.
            Say’s all I need to know about the bloke.

          • Te Reo Putake 5.1.2.1.2
            11 January 2013 at 9:51 am

            Well, the former Piers Stefan Pughe-Morgan may be the voice of reason in his American show, Chris, but his work history and personal morals strongly suggest a right wing orientation. And Rupert Murdoch isn’t known for picking Spartists to run his newspapers!

            edit: Snap, A1len.

          • Chris 5.1.2.1.3
            11 January 2013 at 12:58 pm

            I’ll have to remember next time my political affiliation is determined by old boss.

            • The Al1en 5.1.2.1.3.1
              11 January 2013 at 1:56 pm

              Point being if your old boss is rupert, the political affiliation is sort of a given.
              Happy for mr morgan to enlighten us all with his road to Damascus conversion from murdoch’s mouthpiece to voice of the people’s heavy hitter.

              Just dial 0000, piers.

        • muzza911 5.1.2.2
          11 January 2013 at 10:24 am

          If you read support for either of them in my response, you were very much mistaken. No need to have watched to know how it would have played out, with each character living up to their *expectation*, which is required to embed mind-sets.

          It’s theatre, they are both pawns/tools in a game which seeks to control the perceptions/minds, via controlling a fake, *debate*!

          The Allen – correct observation!

  6. TheContrarian 6
    11 January 2013 at 8:58 am

    Fascinating study on the link between leaded petrol and the high crime rates of the 1990’s

    http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

    • Populuxe1 6.1
      11 January 2013 at 6:28 pm

      Indeed. One is reminded of the Romans who lost the plot because they kept their wine in lead-lined containers, or a similar lead-related decline caused by drinking rice wine from bronze vessles in the late Chinese Shang dynasty.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 6:39 pm

        Although running out of rich lands to conquer and make vassal states feeding wealth to keep the imperial centre running didn’t help.

  7. KhandallaViper 7
    11 January 2013 at 9:06 am

    Let us not get waylaid by the MMS talking heads like Trotter and Hooton.
    Framing stories as battles between X and Y makes good press and TV sound bites.

    The changes required to get ths country out of the trough of inequality and underperformance is not about two personalities.
    As Laboutites we must focus on engaging with our family, friends, neighbours, communities, businesses and organisations to understand their needs and aspirations and to drive bottom up policy using our new Constitution.

    Focus on the real stuff, not the side-shows.

    The Trotter story is a matter for Shearer to sort.

  8. Barnsley Bill 8
    11 January 2013 at 9:39 am

    I find it amazing that you are all still flailing around and shadow boxing about the leadership.
    The battle is lost, the Feb vote is a formality. The caucus beat you. Move on.
    Cunliffe got pwned. Quite unfairly probably but it will not make a blind bit of difference to the outcome. Shearer is your leader. You will not change that before the next election.

    • Another Viper 8.1
      11 January 2013 at 10:58 am

      Barnsley, Hooton n the media are trying to make it a personality thing .

      This Trotter story is bad for all the Labour Party.

      True, members were beaten by the Caucus in November. Until the leadership has achieved legitimacy through endorsement from the members and affiliates there will be turmoil in the party.
      The issue is between the members and the leadership. If the February endorsement is a “formality” then many members n affiliates will loose interest in the party.
      Who will do the work for the Local Election layer this year?

  9. xtasy 9
    11 January 2013 at 10:25 am

    “Europeans, take note: The U.S. government has granted itself authority to secretly snoop on you.

    That’s according to a new report produced for the European Parliament, which has warned that a U.S. spy law renewed late last year authorizes “purely political surveillance on foreigners’ data” if it is stored using U.S. cloud services like those provided by Google, Microsoft and Facebook.”

    See the following link and story for details:

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/01/08/fisa_renewal_report_suggests_spy_law_allows_mass_surveillance_of_european.html

    This is something all of us should be very mindful of, when using US based service providers and cloud servers, and any traffic between the US and other countries falls into the same category as the article in “future tense” (from 08 Jan. 2013) should make clear.

    There are always certain risks to consider, and this is just one of them.

    • Rogue Trooper 9.1
      11 January 2013 at 8:42 pm

      while I think of it; see Sue Kedgley’s analysis of the ongoing rent of Transmission Gully to the taxpayer, pulling clay uphill and all that motor-scraping

  10. Colonial Viper 10
    11 January 2013 at 10:43 am

    Heads up Standardistas: Hooten’s Methodology

    Is to distract from the real issue: giving Labour Party members a democratic say come February, confirming the Leader.

    Is to suggest that the Labour Leadership is a position which does not need or want democratic confirmation by the membership in 2013.

    Is to try and turn this into an irrelevant Cunliffe versus Shearer cage fight, instead of the true crux: bringing democracy to the Labour Party, as the membership clearly intended at Conference in Nov 2012.

    • karol 10.1
      11 January 2013 at 11:08 am

      Is the LP membership’s participation in choosing a leader more important than the memberships ability to influence the policy decisions of the caucus? How much say does the membership now have in the latter?

      • weka 10.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 1:44 pm

        Yeah, I’m hoping someone will do a post soon on how Labour works internally, with a focus on what options the membership has for action.

    • tc 10.2
      11 January 2013 at 1:14 pm

      Well it’s what he’s paid to do, and does it well. The smug trolling designed to undermine and distract and the cherry picking rather than responding when requested so he can keep on his message

      It’s like a modern version of Muldoon in some ways and boy haven’t the NACT made that look like the good old days the way they’ve sent the economy and living standards off down the hill with wilful negligence.

  11. The Al1en 11
    11 January 2013 at 11:22 am

    Heads up Standardistas: The Al1en’s Methodology

    They said the next revolution would be on TV, what they didn’t say was it will start on the internet.

    I’ve entered a song on the audience website, to win NZonAir funding, to record the single and make a video.
    I’ve chosen the protest song The faeces of the species, as a direct challenge to key’s constituency chairman who complained about the Inside child poverty documentary aired in the 2011 election campaign, and now has his feet firmly under the table.
    Way to go Sir, kids with third world diseases on their beautiful little faces, and you complain about unfair electioneering. Fuck off.

    Don’t care if you like the song (I do, I love it) or not, but a vote a day for the next couple of weeks and it’s win/win.
    I need the publicity to kick off my campaign, and a video on tv, or a refusal by NZonAir to follow through for political reasons would sort of do the trick.

    Please, bookmark the song page and vote as many times until it gets a top ten placing and thus eligible for the prize.
    Email to friends/colleagues, tell them it’s for food for kids and maximum embarrassment for the pm.
    I’m staying anonymous, not going to make a penny from it personally, and well up for the front line fight.
    Use the system to beat the system with a mouse click.

    http://www.theaudience.co.nz/the-al1en/the-faeces-of-the-species-1/

    Viva revolution.

  12. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 12
    11 January 2013 at 12:50 pm

    The subsconcious is amazing – Rosy mentions ape and lprent’s synapses go to the hairy Librarian at Ankh-Moorpork. What a tangled web our brains are. 😀

      • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 12.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 1:49 pm

        lprent
        She did – somewhere above 1 1 1 3
        Rosy – “Bolger used to ape accents all the time. I sort of thought it was a subconsciously empathetic thing.”
        And she mentioned ‘subconcious’ too which I am sure I didn’t read?

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    11 January 2013 at 1:11 pm

    RNZ
    -Law Society litigate a closer relationship with Lifeline; the demands of being a lawyer are greater than they have ever been 😉
    -longer hours
    -demanding clients
    -technological speed cracking the whip
    now,
    Down to Business
    -NZ TWI the highest in FIVE years, around 75.9
    -Japanese are about to begin printing rice paper money in a “fashion not seen before”
    -Cloudy forecast for mortgage interest rates in the latter half of this year and expected to be much higher over the coming 3-4 years-Shamubeel Eaqub, NZIER (I like that man)
    -Rural Exodus-property values dropping (has occurred already in central and southern HB)
    -Nov Trade Deficit widened, 4th consecutive month in a row
    -NZ $ 84.70 US; 85 coming
    yet,
    the NZX 50 Index is at a new FIVE year high; business as usual.

    Ching Ching

  14. Rogue Trooper 14
    11 January 2013 at 1:13 pm

    oi

  15. Rogue Trooper 15
    11 January 2013 at 1:16 pm

    test

  16. Rogue Trooper 16
    11 January 2013 at 1:24 pm

    test (server intermission )

  17. Rogue Trooper 17
    11 January 2013 at 1:59 pm

    sorry about the random graffiti (servers’ fault message) 🙂
    did you know that Zephaniah was familiar with court circles and current political issues?
    He announced to Judah God’s coming judgement, an immediate sign was the Scythian (fierce horse mounted peoples’) incursion into Canaan (from Southern Russia) in the 7th C BC.

    main theme, coming day of the Lord, God’s punishment of the nations including apostate Judah, with the pronouncement of Doom ending on a positive note with His merciful restoration.

    Baal was a common name for the chief male god amongst peoples, also
    -master and owner of a house
    -landowner
    -owner of cattle
    -son of “grain”
    -storm god Hadad

    Baal cult included, addiction, animal sacrifices, ritualistic meals, licentious dances. Human fertility was sacred and the High places had chambers for sacred prostitution;

    I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble (formidable obstacles), when I cut off man from the face of the earth, declares the Lord.
    (Zephaniah speaks of fire)

    I will stretch out my hand against Judah, I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagans and the idolatrous priests-those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who swear by the Lord and also by Molech (sometimes involved in child sacrifice).

    On that day, declares the Lord, a cry will go up from the Fish Gate (merchants who had grown rich through corrupt business practices would be destroyed.

    At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent. Their wealth will be plundered, their houses demolished. They will build houses but not live in them; they will plant vineyards but not drink the wine.

    (remember how the distributor / oil pump drive used to round off on the old V6? 🙂

    • David H 17.1
      11 January 2013 at 3:00 pm

      I had an old 1963 Ford Falcon 170 Super pursuit, and it had a bad habit of screwing them off inside the oil pump, so that if you didn’t have a long thin magnetic screwdriver, it was the sump off, then the oil pump removal to get it out. I got to be quite an expert at the removal of those bloody things on the side of the road and i kept a spare in the glove box at all times.

    • Colonial Viper 17.2
      11 January 2013 at 3:21 pm

      Nice bit of history there mate. Good to remind people that yes, there was much culture and civilisation way before the Romans.

  18. AmaKiwi 18
    11 January 2013 at 2:15 pm

    The World Economic Forum, hardly a hot bed of anti-capitalism, is warning that climate change, income inequality, and fiscal instability are THE issues which must be addressed IMMEDIATELY (at Davos).

    Between the lines the WEF is saying we are in a global economic meltdown. Captain Mumblefuck and ABC are in denial even as capitalists elsewhere are waking up and frightened.

    What the Captain Mumblefuck neo-liberals fail to see is that if we don’t get a moderate reformer like Cunliffe (comparable to FDR and Mickey Savage in the 1930’s), we are going to get a Hitler or Stalin.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jan/08/climate-change-debt-inequality-threat-financial-stability

  19. Rogue Trooper 19
    11 January 2013 at 2:17 pm

    One way of forcing meaning onto suffering, thereby making it more bearable, is to rename it sacrifice and believe it integral to the divine economy. We confront the the fears that threats to life arouse in us by claiming that destruction for our own, submitting to it or performing acts of violence ourself. It is not religious belief that makes us violent, violence turns us to the intense motifs of sacrifice that are particularly expressed in religion. Considering, however, the broader context of anthropogenic violence in Encyclopedia of Wars-Charles Philips and Alan Axelrod- found of 1,800 violent conflicts throughout history, only 23 of them were religious.

    “There isn’t much precedent in Islamic tradition for suicide terrorism. Modern suicide terrorism became a political force with the atheistic anarchist movement that began at the end of the 19th century”-Atran (see also If You’re Not Religious Is Nothing Sacred?)

    “Fictive Kinship”-living as if related-is served well by a belief in a (monotheistic) deity. Sacred values have an important functional hold over us.

  20. Matthew Hooton 20
    11 January 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Quite a passionate discussion above. Much will depend I guess on Mr Shearer’s big speech on 27 January that Chris Hipkins is hosting. The word is it will have another big policy announcement.

    • KhandallaViper 20.1
      11 January 2013 at 3:31 pm

      Thank you Matthew for the update from Party Central.

      This is at the Young Labour hosted Summer School. It is in Trevor’s electorate rather than Chris Hipkin’s, I suspect.

      Where: Brookfield Scout Camp, 562 Moores Valley Road, Wainuiomata
      (only 40mins from Khandallah)

      When: Friday 25 January – Sunday 27 January

      You can contact Young Labour at summerschool@younglabour.org.nz. Find out more and register now at younglabour.org.nz/summer-school.

      All paid up members are welcome. It will be a great time for all the Labour Party membership to build on the good work started at the November Conference.

      Book your Air NZ flights now if you are from the regions. Auckland -Wellington return under $200.

      Clare Curran will buy drinks for anyone who says they read The Standard regularly.

    • Olwyn 20.2
      11 January 2013 at 5:22 pm

      Matthew we have heard this “next big speech” talk for more than a year now, and the guy remains as opaque as he ever was. It is as if party central is taking its cues from North Korea.

    • Rhinoviper 20.3
      11 January 2013 at 10:20 pm

      Yeah, showing up there smooching the Rogernomes will be a better look than fishing for clients among the Neo-Nazis and racists at the Marlborough Sounds Symposia who inspired Anders Brevik, won’t it, Hoots?

      • Rhinoviper 20.3.1
        11 January 2013 at 10:32 pm

        Just an addendum, but I think that there’s a very interesting post that could be written on Matthew Hooton’s very dirty clients if someone could do the digging…

        No doubt there are some aspects he wants hidden very deeply indeed.

  21. Chris 21
    11 January 2013 at 5:02 pm

    Looking at all the above I am guessing that this will be keys GO TO place when he wants to feel good and confident about his chances of winning next election. I can see where he is gettin g his material from to stir up the Shearer/Cunliffe divide. Does’t even have to try,it’s all there ready and waiting.

  22. Draco T Bastard 22
    11 January 2013 at 5:26 pm

    NZ’s Incumbent Politicians Hell-bent on Encumbrance

    John Key has stated that overriding the Commission is needed to protect Chorus’s profit margins and its ability to deliver broadband and the UltraFast Broadband rollout. It would seem Chorus’s profit margins have been hamstringing the development of NZ’s internet to a larger extent than already thought.

    Insiders from Chorus subsidiary contractors have informed the Pirate Party that there has been massive issues with the UltraFast Broadband rollout with Chorus underpaying regional contracted businesses allowing them not enough time to complete jobs and payments being based on minimal possible time to complete jobs. Technicians are having issues and some regional contractors are finding the UFB contract is not the golden goose it once seemed.

    Gee, why am I not surprised? Perhaps it’s because NAct set up the whole lot as a wealth siphon that takes taxpayer money and gives it to their rich mates.

    The simple reality is that if we hadn’t sold off Telecom and went for competition we’d be a hell of a lot better off (~$17b worth), we’d already have FttH to most of the countries population and telecommunications would be a hell of a lot cheaper than they are.

    • Rogue Trooper 22.1
      11 January 2013 at 8:22 pm

      🙁 it’s all optic fibre from where I’m gazing

    • Fortran 22.2
      12 January 2013 at 1:44 pm

      If Chorus’s profits drop so does its share price which will allow an overseas buyer into the market in purchasing Chorus for a knock down price – then you will see what it costs to repair phone lines – payable in Yuan.

  23. Jenny 23
    11 January 2013 at 9:06 pm

    This country needs a climate change Churchill not a climate change Chamberlain.

    Te Reo Putake claims that there will be a unanimous caucus vote in support of David Shearer in February, which will prevent the membership from having their say.

    For this to happen even David Cunliffe would have to vote for David Shearer.

    Even if he is the only one to do so, Cunliffe should vote against him.

    If he does, he will eventually triumph.

  27. just saying 27
    11 January 2013 at 9:36 pm

    Plus the fact I seem to piss my money away.

    Mcflock,
    I just wanted to let you know that I tried out a few of the tobacco leaves that have been hanging under the house for about 8 and a half months, and it tastes just like a slightly harsher version of Camel. The reason I mention it is because you were saying that the tobacco variety I used was too bland. And it is if not cured for long enough. I may have to take it all down now. I’d hate to imagine how harsh it will be if I leave it for the entire 12 months.

    *disclaimer: tobacco is very unhealthy, and it goes without saying (but I will to salve my conscience) that you’d be better off quitting, and you may well have done so.

    • McFlock 27.1
      11 January 2013 at 10:07 pm

      I did quit – gardening 🙂

      Interesting. I might take up growing it again.
      The real fun I had was progressively destroying my crop trying different methods in a fruitless search for ideal pipe tobacco (in place of being too uncoordinated to roll a decent cigar :)). Sort of like organic alchemy.

      I would suggest taking it down and blending with this year’s crop, but I fear you have followed too much of my horticulture speculation already 🙂

    • bad12 27.2
      11 January 2013 at 11:34 pm

      i do a mix, well cured leaves that i grow are pretty much cigar material in terms of taste,but if you mix in the smaller leaves which seem to have less of the active ingredients in them and/or some of the half cured leaves you get a blend thats slightly harsh but still a nice smoke,

      i am hard out at the moment pulling plants that have basically done their dash and cutting bigger leaves, in my main garden fertilized for the rest of the year on my kitchen scraps i am getting some great 750cm-800cm leaves…

      • just saying 27.2.1
        12 January 2013 at 7:11 am

        Hi Bad12,

        I have one plant in my garden which is about 17 months old. I harvested the big leaves last year, but left a few plants in the vege garden expecting them to die. But it was a very mild winter. I pulled the rest out in spring, but thought I’d leave one to deter insects.

        It’s thriving, and now I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be easier (if it would work) to keep the plants for as long as possible – keep cutting the flowers off, and reharvest the leaves every autumn.

        I know that tobacco is usually grown as an annual. Have you ever kept them going and kept on harvesting? Easier than sowing seed every year. I find that the plants grow very slowly in the first few months. It would be good to be able to speed th process up a bit.

        • bad12 27.2.1.1
          12 January 2013 at 9:58 am

          JS, yeah they will grow all yeah round even in a harsh Wellington winter, but, the babies don’t like the cold and are best planted in the first week in November,

          I havn’t tried growing any as a multi year crop, just had a seed get away and germinate, but, the literature i have read says that the second time round the foliage gets smaller than the 8 sets of big leaves to be expected for the first crop,

          I grew 20 in the first year and that wasn’t enough for a years supply, 40 the next year and still not enough, 60 last year and run out in October, LOLZ insanity took over this year and i have grown a s**t-load,

          I start my seeds under lights in August/ September, separate them at about a inch high and use the lights on them untill they start blocking the light from one another and then put them on the windowsills untill it’s warm enough to plant them out, (November),

          So this years from planting to pulling the ones that are starting to yellow,(they have used all the food in the soil),and flower,(really only need a couple of plants for seeds),is a pretty fast 10 weeks, and, i think that the clever plants have subtracted the weeks they spent on the window sills as part of the life-span cos while this years are far more productive and better quality they haven’t grown as tall as last years,

          A really clever ‘tool’ for hanging them is to straighten out paper clips leaving the hook in one end and a V in the other, i’ve got my garden shed strung with strings across the roof inside and it can take a couple of hundred pairs of leaves at a time, the strings i set about 10cm, 4 inches apart, i am getting good smokable leaves after 3 weeks but not all of them dry out and brown up at the same time so there’s a constant sorting going on which isn’t hard work but is time consuming,(oh my kingdom for a sky-line),

          Another tip is to use thick paper sacks to store the cut leaves in, i use paper rubbish sacks cut in half and staple the bottom of the half that needs it, paper sacks keep the leaves from becoming too unstable and if you need to dry the cut stuff the hot water cupboard or the windowsills on a sunny day are good,

          If you want to dry cured leaves fast, in a paper bag on the dash board of a car in the sun works like an oven and you have to keep an eye on them coz the moisture gets sucked out of them real quick,

          LOLZ if you crispy critter them like i did to a bag full of slightly wet but cured leaf the other day they can be fixed by tossing in half a dozen wet leaves overnight, it’s amazing to see leaves so dry that they could turn to dust overnight become soft and able to be handled again…

          • just saying 27.2.1.1.1
            12 January 2013 at 12:10 pm

            Wow.
            Thanks for all this advice.
            I have mine hanging in a similar fashion, using the green wire gardening twine hooked through the thick stem into spaced loops in the wire across the shed.
            Do you have any tips for speeding up the looping/hooking/hanging process? Takes forever!
            Still with tobacco at $35 for 30 grams, it’s worth the effort.

            • Colonial Viper 27.2.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2013 at 12:31 pm

              Do you have any tips for speeding up the looping/hooking/hanging process? Takes forever!

              Get a good mate to help you with it for a portion of the end result haha

              By the way, tobacco makes an excellent complementary community currency, bypassing the mainstream banker controlled economy.

            • bad12 27.2.1.1.1.2
              12 January 2013 at 12:52 pm

              Ummm, are you pairing the leaves together, the advice is to pair the leaves with the center stems facing each other,

              If you have bunches of leaves on one wire it might slow down the drying, i am lucky to have cleaned up what is quite a big area i have under the house,it’s about 4 times the area of a shed and i have that rigged with the same set up as the shed to be able to hook my pairs of leaves on,

              LOLZ, the disgusting wet muddy s**t i dug out of there is actually my main garden in a raised bed made from shipping pallets which both the Ware Whare and Bunning’s give away here,(for fire-wood snigger), i systematically work my way up and down the garden over the 9 months i am not growing anything feeding it the kitchen scraps, ash from the ashtray, and bits of paper like shopping receipts and rolly paper packets,

              Theres no effort in digging the garden that way as once a week i just dig a spade wide trench across it, dump in the scraps,add a small bucket of compost and hey presto utter crap soil is pumping my plants so hard out that everytime i look at it i have a bit of a giggle,

              But i digress, back to hanging leaves, when my shed is full, i first run my pairs of leaves through the basement area which isn’t quite warm enough to cure them but allows them to get to that stage where they fold in on themselves,

              While that happens i am checking in the shed for leaves that are near cured and moving them closest to the door, as i move them closer to the door and as space becomes available i rotate the rest of the leaves around the shed,

              It’s something i do about twice a week, i don’t know how your shed sits in relation to the Sun,mine has a warm side facing the sun, so when the leaves come out from the basement they go into the shed on the un-sunny side,(the roof of the shed gets full sun), and i then rotate them round the shed as i take the cured stuff out,

              Most of my cured stuff is still wet but brown when i take it out of the shed as it sucks in moisture from the less cured leaves that are constantly arriving in the shed, thats why i use the paper bag method of giving the leaves a final dry,

              To use the paper bag method i first strip out the center stem,(they get buried with the kitchen scraps), i then give the leaves a first cut by squeezing a bunch in one hand and cutting them as thin as possible with the scissors,

              It’s easy then to put a paper bag of cut but still damp stuff in the hot water cupboard, on a window sill in the sun, (with the curtains closed works best),or if some real heat is necessary, on the dash board of the car in a sunny spot, (gotta check them every half hour if you use the paper bag of cut stuff on the cars dashboard method tho, it doesn’t take em long to crispy critter,

              LOLZ, only 30 grams, my addiction is atrocious, i have been smoking 2, 50 gram packets for the past 40 odd years,

              The legal aspects as i understand them are that it is ILLEGAL to either sell or give what you have grown away, and, my reading of the law says that you can grow enough to provide YOU with 15KG of cut and smokable leaves in any year…

              • Colonial Viper …
                12 January 2013 at 1:03 pm

                The legal aspects as i understand them are that it is ILLEGAL to either sell or give what you have grown away, and, my reading of the law says that you can grow enough to provide YOU with 15KG of cut and smokable leaves in any year…

                Ahh didn’t know that. Nevertheless, unless they get the mainstream economy more inclusive, people will do what people will do to survive.

                • bad12 …
                  12 January 2013 at 1:21 pm

                  Aha, as the anti-smoking fanatics have all agreed, to make a smoke-free New Zealand via the current means would have a packet of tobacco costing 100 bucks by the time those fools have finished it’s pretty much a forgone conclusion that a black market will become established,

                  I can tell you now that tobacco as a bush crop has a greater range of growing areas than dope as tobacco doesn’t need a full sun enviroment to grow leaves, where-as dope does to grow heads,

                  From what i have been told the stuff,(tobacco), can be found growing wild all over the far North…

              • just saying …
                12 January 2013 at 1:23 pm

                Lol.

                What gave me the idea (which percolated as the price went steadily up) was the old man’s neighbour dug up his entire back quarter-acre section and grew tobacco, in South Auckland, about ten years ago. Must have been a heavy smoker:-D

                It broke down cultural barriers between neighbours, as my father was a keen gardener at the time, and was fascinated by watching the wholesale cropping of a back yard. I asked my father if it was legal to grow, and he said it was legal to grow – illegal to sell.

                I take a bit of comfort at the extent of your habit. Sometimes I feel guilty about smoking about 30 grams a week!

                Btw, I hang each leaf from a separate “hook” on a separate loop. One of the reasons it takes so damn long.

                You’ve given me lots of new ideas to experiment with.
                Thank you and bon apetit – or whatever the smoking equivalent is:-)

                • bad12 …
                  12 January 2013 at 3:21 pm

                  God don’t ever let anyone including yourself ‘guilt trip’ you over smoking, it’s an addiction and you were hooked after the first pack,

                  I am not so sure that hanging them separately would slow down the drying process, in theory it should speed it up, maybe my having a ‘mass’ of leaves in the shed at one time traps the heat of the Sun, does your shed get all day sun on at least it’s roof???,

                  I have found that leaving the door of the shed closed most of the time speeds the process a little bit and even when i leave the door open it’s only by 50 odd mm’s,

                  LOLZ, i have taken over a dead and weed infested piece of the HousingNZ estate and have a series of raised garden boxes down there as well, HousingNZ are planning on building on it at some stage but untill then i have done what all good colonizing white boys do and simply moved in on the basis of ‘they are not using it’, now where have i heard that before LOLZ,

                  Taking the cost out of the addiction leaves me with the money to provide a good diet across the whole range of foods where growing a vege garden would have left me with the cost of the addiction and little better off…

                  • just saying …
                    12 January 2013 at 10:21 pm

                    😀

                    Let’s face it – vegetable growing is a hobby which barely covers costs and in a bad season – not even that.

                    There is an untended reserve over the fence. I’ve been working on the soil which is horrendusly alkaline due to decades of home fire ash being chucked over….

    • felixviper 27.3
      12 January 2013 at 12:36 am

      Those looking for a milder smoke should favour the lower leaves on the plant.

  28. Colonial Viper 28
    11 January 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Advanced manufacturing: How to make a nuclear submarine

    Not that I am advocating that NZ does this, obviously. But this conveys how much knowledge and expertise is required to successfully do “high tech, high value” manufacturing. Bringing NZ to this point is a generational project, and our short term political outlook can’t achieve it.

    • Rhinoviper 28.1
      11 January 2013 at 10:02 pm

      Yep, seen it a while back and loved it… agree that we shouldn’t be/couldn’t be doing that, but it serves to show how much an industry is tied up with a town.

      These are real people, learning real skills in real trades and if that industry is shut down because some bean-counter decides to outsource it, then those people see their futures end and the community dies.

      So when we hear that a paper mill is shutting down a line, then look at this and see how an industry supports the real aspirations (not Key’s “ashperayshums”) and livelihoods of a community.

      All of Key’s and Shearer’s talk of “outsourcing” as a road to economy? Look at the real costs of “economy”.

      Watch this documentary, and if you’re uncomfortable thinking about warships, then think about towns dependent on paper mills, meat works and refrigerator manufacturers.

      • Colonial Viper 28.1.1
        11 January 2013 at 10:45 pm

        You got to hand it to the Brits, you can see how they managed to keep an Empire going for so long, and how – amazingly – they have kept going with some pride even after the end of their Empire. Not every post-Imperial power can boast such a feat.

        • kiwicommie 28.1.1.1
          12 January 2013 at 2:47 am

          Cameron is a nasty bit of work. His economic policies were even more destructive than John Keys, and those big riots were not accident; rather the result of his brutal austerity measures. The UK govt steals from the poor to give to the rich, kind of the reverse of Robin Hood.

          He is no friend of New Zealanders, his government introduced immigration measures that put an end to decades of OE’s.