No, Espiner has not. Espiner is reacting to the legitimate story of a strong pre-election coalition with the Greens. Cunliffe was quite unconvincing this morning.
I am surprised at the cack-handed handling of this by both Greens and Labour. Long before it came to the political surface, this proposal should have been shuttled by political messengers to test its feasibility. This is like proposing than Telecom and Vodafone, or Team New Zealand and Oracle, will merge. You would do it in incredible secrecy, and if it didn’t work mumble something to camera with a face-saving handshake.
Instead, the “Labour leadership team” (whoever they are because they ain’t caucus) have determined to slap the Greens down nice and public. So every other party gets to spray the paint about.
Instead of starting the election season around Budget, like you should so we can get to actual policy points of difference, we have a weeks worth of bullshit. Caused IMHO by amateur political management from both sides. Dorks.
Why do you assume it was Labour who leaked it? Got any proof for that? Labour (and specifically David Cunliffe) have been unequivocal about leaving coalition negotiations until after the election. There’s just as much chance that the Greens leaked it as part of a play.
Ad’s main point is the political testing which should have been done beforehand, far in advance of any thing getting to this stage. At this point, ‘who leaked it’ is an irrelevancy.
”70% of left leaning voters want a Labour/Green coalition”, i would suggest that is test enough,
Burning the candle at both ends for too long eventually will burn Labour’s fingers, my view as a Green Party member is that it looks increasingly like the best strategy for the Green Party is to sit on the cross benches offering Labour nothing unless they pay for every piece of Labour Legislation the Green Party helps pass into Law with the passing of a like piece of Green Party Legislation…
CV, Then why tar Labour with the same brush? It’s a bit of an ask to expect Labour to politically test a Green party play before the Greens actually execute it…
From the hooting and hollering around the traps about how the Greens are awesome and Labour are a bunch of dicks, I expect whatever they were planning had the desired outcome and it wasn’t a serious approach anyway – more of a slightly cynical piece of win/win political positioning by the Greens because there is no way Labour would go for it, and the Greens aren’t stupid.
According to Brent Edwards on RNZ this morning there has been political testing (presumably internal polling) that has shown centrist voters in the provinces are falling for NAct’s Labour/Greens coalition = extreme left in large numbers. These are people who voted Labour from 99 to 05 and Labour wants them back.
I think there is over-reaction to Cunliffe’s recent statement.There will be a Labour/Green coalition govt. and both parties know it. But Labour doesn’t want to scare the gullible small town horses which makes sense. They could be the difference between winning and losing. To rely solely on getting out the non vote is nowhere near enough to beat the Nats and their media lackeys. The Greens on the other hand are indulging in a little politicking to win over more of the so-called hard left vote and that’s an equally ‘sensible’ strategy to follow.
Good luck to them. I hope both parties succeed and then we’re all winners.
Bit quick off the mark freedom. Edited out that comment. I wasn’t talking about ALL small town residents – just those who have a propensity to fall for blatantly obvious Tory propaganda – and plenty did in 08 and 11.
Edit:
My my, that was a quick edit Anne.
It was already edited – having time consuming probs. Think its the mouse and a new one too.
Gotta friend popping in to sort out the bloody mouse (or whatever is wrong) over the weekend so it will be normal transmission by Monday. In the meantime gimme 5 mins. at least. 😀
maybe if you did the typing instead of the mouse then such silly word-strings would not appear 😉 then again, left as is, we might get some handy insights into why cheese is so favoured ?
+100 Anne ….agreed ” over-reaction to Cunliffe’s recent statement”…and bugger the polls…both Greens and Labour need to dis the polls and emphasise how well they work together despite not having a formal agreement before the Election
interesting article by Miriam Pierard from the Daily Blog on this issue and the absolute need for a united Left front!
“Labour MPs report National’s scaremongering is working among centrist voters, particularly in provincial New Zealand. Those voters worry a Labour-Green Government, as portrayed by National, would put a brake on economic growth, putting pressure on their jobs and incomes.
In the past two elections those voters have supported National. For there to be a change of government Labour needs to persuade at least some of them to change their vote. It does not believe that likely to happen if centrist voters believe they are voting for a Labour-Green Government.
The Greens dismiss that analysis and say National has been given great power by letting it dictate Labour’s political strategy.
They argue that National’s scaremongering has no merit and Labour should be prepared to counter it rather than run scared.
I particularly like the comment I have put in bold.
No mention in this analysis, however, of those who are right put off voting due to the belief that ‘the two main parties are too similar’. I posit that the way to deal with this group, also, is by supplying information that counters the misperceptions.
Labour are in a difficult position – having to appeal to a wide range of people. It would seem that clear, simple messages that are informative and dispel misperceptions repeated ad infinitum are what Labour need to be focussing on.
blue leopard
Well Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington Christchurch would have to be regarded as major urban areas where there is business growth. Tauranga might be regarded as part of the north powerhouse of business. It could be thought of as the cities that have the big jets and cheap air fares while the rest have to pay big to get their share of flights if at all.
I think then most of the rest of NZ is provincial as applied to NZ political thinking. Another way to define the areas being talked about as possibly fearing Labour-Greens would be those with big farming involvement. And particularly big dairying interests as irrigation and dairying go together more and more. They would be worried that Greens might try to prevent that and want money spent on cleaning up rivers and reducing nitrogen and even stop palm kernel waste importation.
How would they vote in Gisborne? Would they vote for National after having their rail withdrawn. Would Picton be grateful that the Seddon earthquakes have resulted in the dropping of Clifford Bay? I suppose Ashburton and surrounds will be National – with the propping up of their business ventures from government guarantees. In Nelson with a lot of retirees I can’t see Nick Smith being ousted if Labour is upping the pension age. Northland have trepidation about being amalgamated over a big area, though some South Island bodies have long boundaries.
“New Zealand is a predominantly urban country, with 86 percent of the population living in an urban area. About 72 percent of the population live in the 16 main urban areas (population of 30,000 or more) and 53 percent live in the four largest cities of Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington, and Hamilton.”
I realise that ‘urban’ doesn’t necessarily translate into ‘not provincial’ and am left wondering what ‘provincial’ actually means in relation to NZ towns and what sort of numbers we are dealing with? Is Hamilton still considered ‘provincial’? If not, then perhaps that last bit of data (‘53% live in the four largest cities’) is an indication of ‘non provincial’ areas – but then what about Dunedin? Tauranga? Perhaps even Whangarei and Nelson? Are they ‘provincial’?
I’m just a tad suspicious that this decision is based on a type of hearsay and not an accurate assessment of the pros and cons* of Labour making clear their relations with Greens. This is only a suspicion and you make a fair point as to the crux of why Labour might have refused to make a formal arrangement with Labour
*The other section of NZers that have to be addressed re the election is those that don’t vote because they think National and Labour are much of a muchness perhaps this group is smaller than those living in ‘provincial NZ’ and this is what I am trying to work out. It would appear that these two groups ‘provincial dwellers being sucked in by National party propaganda’ and the ‘Labour and National are much of a muchness’ group are mutually exclusive – to address one of these groups, switches the other group off.
Maybe we need to think about the actual pros for Labour of a potential campaign coalition? No one really seems to have outlined why this is such an awesome idea for them.
It looks like there is zilch in it for Labour beyond that which they can already achieve themselves, and from the reports of the what the proposal entailed it seems like it would have been all give to the Greens.
One pro would be the potential for getting an absolute majority as a unified team, thus robbing other potential coalition partners of the claim that they must support National as the party with the highest overall vote. I do not say there are no cons, only that this is one pro.
As I have said elsewhere, Labour could have countered the offer of Greens by stipulating what areas they were prepared to share on and what areas they weren’t. For an example, and an example only; as I understand it finance is one of the biggest fears people have about the Greens – Labour could have stated yes we agree but we are not sharing finance (- or another example – mining) in this way it would have worked well for Labour because they would send a clear message out to the voters of their boundaries between them and the Greens. To do this would have served to dispel fears in those that have them on what type of influence the Greens would have on the next government under Labour.
Had they done this and Greens rejected it, there would be a different story going on right now.
Additionally, an overall advantage for Labour in that coalition is one of transparency toward the public. The fact of the matter is Labour are going to work with Greens in one way or another unless something changes severely – to make some type of formal arrangement with the Greens would be a transparent move. They are going to be working with the Greens in some way, shape or form and making a coalition outlines that if people wish for a Greener government they need to vote Greens, if they wish for a less Green and more Labour government they vote Labour.
This business re who you vote for is going to shape the new government is the case anyway – yet a formal agreement would have highlighted this and Labour would not necessarily have lost votes to Greens under these conditions and had they included some stipulations – they would have addressed the ‘centrist green fear’.
In other words – when there is an attempt from Labour to deal with ‘those from the provinces”, does this mean Labour are attempting to appeal to those:
a. “having or showing the manners, viewpoints, etc., considered characteristic of unsophisticated inhabitants of a province; rustic; narrow or illiberal; parochial: a provincial point of view. ” (One of the definitions in Draco’s first link)
or
b. “from the provinces: the parts of a country outside of the capital or the largest cities.” (Draco’s second link)
Bring me your bumpkins, chawbacons, churls, clodhoppers, cornballs, hayseeds, hicks and rubes and you will see the ‘centrist voter’ and they shall and have always voted Bridges, Clarkson, Peters, Allen, Walsh, Doidge*
” According to Brent Edwards on RNZ this morning there has been political testing (presumably internal polling) that has shown centrist voters in the provinces are falling for NAct’s Labour/Greens coalition = extreme left in large numbers. These are people who voted Labour from 99 to 05 and Labour wants them back.”
I think this is spot on, many people I know who have voted National in the last 2 elections are scared shitless of the Greens, the fact is most people don’t follow politics closely and their views of the greens are wildly inaccurate, but, it still affects Labour negatively…so what Labour is doing here may not be popular amongst those of us who could swing between Labour or the Greens, but I reckon it will have the desired affect of swinging voters from National to Labour…which scores double points.
So the correct response to these people who are scared of the greens “so you’d rather have JK borrowing, putting it in his mate’s pocket’s and then get you to pay it back “
Looking ahead, it would be good for regular weekly or fortnightly meetings to be held at least at two levels beginning now and right through in the run-up to September: meetings among leaders of Mana-Greens-Labour, and among the Chiefs of Staff.
Strategic cooperation versus competition, policy differentiation or synergies, and the timing and pitch of policy announcements, as well as many tactical matters, can be raised and coordinated at such meetings.
Winston will be Winston, he will take care of himself, and he will attempt to soar as high as he can regardless of how strong or weak the right winds or left winds blow. So, at the same time, Labour and Greens should take charge and own the messaging/positioning possibilities and bargaining power that a so-called kingmaker can leverage upon, on this side of the election.
Too many words … it would be unsurprising if many listeners may have tuned out part way through the clip, as well as (rightly or wrongly) getting the impression Labour is not that well grounded.
A bit complex and sounded like different subtle signals were being sent through various frequences; if that is the modern day Delphic Oracle, then that should earn a well-deserved A+.
So Labour wants to retain the phrase used in the past, i.e. “Labour-led”, but why is there attachment to that phrase or concept? A LabourGreens-centred Government or another turn of phrase, signalling a new, alternative government (and not one relegating the Greens to the arrangement involving Jeanette Fitzsimmons a few years back*) would mark a change from the 1999-2008 Labour-led business as usual.
–> There’s room for Cunliffe and the Labour team to do better.
*Times have changed and the Greens’ party vote is significantly higher now – what was the percentage of the Greens then (also in comparison with NZF) as compared to the Greens support close to the mid-teens now (while NZF remains pretty much where it has been and has not increased substantially like the Greens)?
I had the same problem a while back re numbering and although I haven’t tried it out since, lprent told me this:
” When creating a list in a word processor and wanting to have extra space between items, it pays to use “shift-enter” rather than just “enter”. It distinguishes line feed from a paragraph end. ”
Maybe they want to keep Labour-led because he is the leader of the Labour party and his job is to maximise the Labour Party vote and it isn’t his job to campaign on behalf of the Green Party…
This surprised me. David Parker claimed in Parliament yesterday there was “rising inequality under National” while Minister of Finance Bill English claimed that inequality was “flat or slightly dropping”.
Parker quoted a Herald opinion poll, but English referred to the 2013 Household Incomes Report (revision, 27 February 2014, Ministry of Social Development) that uses statistics and the Gini measure (the OECD and others use the Gini as the main indicator for international comparisons).
1996 – 32.5
2007 – 32.5
2012 – 32.4
(there’s a blip in 2011, and a new report is due in June).
Yet, there’s this from Stats NZ, showing Parker is correct. The line is fairly flat, and the biggest rise in inequality was from the late 80s to the 1990s. But it did indeed start to come down under Labour, then rose again under National.
So there’s no way to comment on the fact check article on the politicheck site?
Gini includes more factors and is used internationally as an inequality measure.
In contrast to the percentile ratios the Gini coefficient takes the incomes of all individuals into account. It gives a summary of the income differences between each person in the population and every other person in the population. The OECD and others use the Gini as the main indicator for international comparisons.
English seems to have been referring to the Gini chart, that’s what he describes.
Parker didn’t support his claim with any data, he chose to use an opinion poll instead.
Perhaps we should add a column specifically for fact checking the factchecker site?
PG has spent the last few years criticising this site for what he perceives to be its failings. It isn’t something that we have particularly bothered doing in his obsessive systematic way.
I’m not adverse to spending some effort to facilitate an environment of open criticism. 😈
Politicheck is not being designed as a blog or forum for discussion, it’s a controlled dynamic library of issues. It’s aimed at complementing social media forums.
So a fact checking column here would be welcome, it would be great for input both ways. The more facts that are added to the discussions the better, it’s not always easy to find them so crowd sourcing facts is excellent way to do it.
If we think we have enough to post an issue on we’ll put it up as an interim finding and then look for more input from the MPs and from the public.
We will also have issues with insufficient facts, so if the facts can crowd sourced we’ll be able to build a case.
Scrutiny of what Politicheck does (fact checking the fact checker) is also welcome. We won’t always find all the facts and we won’t always get things right, so any additions or corrections are welcome. If we’re found to be wrong or lacking in facts we’ll put it right.
Financial commentator Bernard Hickey said the contrast between the median income and the sharp increase in those earning more than $70,000 suggested the gap between rich and poor was widening.
“The total number of people earning [$70,000 or more] is relatively few; their incomes have risen much faster than those at the bottom end … it appears people on higher incomes have done much better,” Mr Hickey said.
The report on household incomes, inequality and hardship prepared each year by the Ministry of Social Development was released this month. It showed that income inequality rose again in the year to June 2011, and is now at its highest level ever in New Zealand.
[…]
Nonetheless these latest studies demonstrate again the high and growing income inequality in New Zealand, the failure of the market to provide decent incomes for very many families and a majority of households, the continuing importance of the income tax system for redistribution of income, and the value of public services.
I’ll be interested to see if/what parker has to say about it. I’m not a great Parker fan. But, from what I’ve read about him, I doubt he would have made a statement based on just an opinion poll, without some significant stats to support his claim.
PG, for a fact checker, sticking toi the facts, you are headlining your fact checking with spin.
On Facebook you promote the politicheck article thus:
Income inequality is flat according to MSD/Gini and Bill English, and David Parker using an opinion poll to support his claim inequality is rising is very questionable.
The original politicheck article starts off OK as a coverage of the issue, kind of – accept you foreground it with reference to an opinion poll. The second sentence is fair enough:
A recent NZ Herald/Digipoll found that 74% of people think that inequality is rising with 44% thinking the income gap had got a lot bigger over the last six years.
In Parliament on Thursday Labour finance spokesperson David Parker claimed there was “rising inequality under National ” while Minister of Finance Bill English claimed that inequality was “flat or slightly dropping”.
The article later goes on to saying this:
David Parker: “The entrenched inequality that comes from long-term income inequality gets worse every year…”
David Cunliffe: “It’s borne out in all the data and there’s no hiding it…”
For the spokesperson for finance and deputy leader of the main opposition party, and the Labour Party leader and others in the party, to use an opinion poll to argue against an official annual report using a measure that “{C}{C}OECD and others use the Gini as the main indicator for international comparisons{C}{C}{C}{C}{C}{C}” is concerning.
Now this is starting to spin. Labour are claiming “all the data” shows it – the opinion poll is used to highlight that most Kiwis perceive something similar to “all the data”.
The article then goews on to focus on the GINI coeficient.
But Patker and Labour were ststing that there is evidence of a grwoing inequality gap well before above cited opinion poll was published.
“Inequality is on the rise in New Zealand and National’s policies simply make it worse. It is no use saying that workers would like to see a greater share of growth without offering any solutions.
“It is embarrassing that our Finance Minister will go to a Davos meeting that is focussed on inequality with his lamentable record at home,” David Parker says.
blockquote>Company profits are increasing much faster than the wage rates of working Kiwis, showing the gap between the haves and have-nots is increasing, said Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker.
“The vast majority of Kiwi families are just treading water. Wage rates have increased in the past year by just 1.6 per cent[1] which is exactly the same as the inflation rate. >blockquote>
For me, the most glaring thing shown by the stats is that income inequality grew by a big amount in the late 80s and 90s, and has not come down significantly since then. There is also the issue of the signifcance of wealth inequality (eg ownership of assets, etc), that are as important as income inequality.
I’d like to see some stats on thta.
But Politicheck is not doing itself any favours by spinning the results of the fact check by claiming Labour’s evidence of growingin inequality is an opinion poll – that is pure spin.
Well, I haven’t looked at what else they’ve written on. But, the inequality one is hardly showing them to be at the forefront of “fact checking”
I’ve found several sites and news articles that have stated the same – GINI coeifficient rose vastly in the 90s, and has pretty much flat lined since. Flip published an artilce on TS about the GINI and the argument for UBI – he included the GINI NZ flatline since the end of the 20th century.
And some have done a bit more in depth analysis, including some of the pros and cons of using the GINI coefficient. Also, some went further and stated the same stats still show a high or increased level of Kiwis living in “hardship”. There’s also the issue of the fact that inequalities have been lessened by redistributive policies like WFF. And rather than looking at just a mean/media/average of all incomes, to look more closely at those at the top and bottom levels of the income hierarchy – then there’s the issue of asset consolidation, and the issue of the impact of long term being at the bottom end…. and wealth vs income inequality.
Labour and Parker and the CTU have been on about the rise in inequality for some time, using various measures and, the CTU provides some in depth analysis.
Inequality has become an election issue. The politcheck article works to undermine claims of inequality, and especially to discredit Parker/Labour’s use of stats.
It remains to be seen whether politicheck will cherry pick the data they focus on to descredit some parties and not others.
The check was not on the history of inequality, it was on the exchange in Question 2 in Parliament yesterday with some background on the poll.
Parker said:
Hon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Minister of Finance: Does he believe that the Government’s policies have reduced income inequality; if so, does he agree with the IMF that rising inequality slows economic growth?
An odd double question. English responded:
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) :The evidence shows that inequality in New Zealand has been flat or slightly declining since the mid-2000s.
That description matches the MSD Gini.
Hon David Parker: Is he so out of touch that he thinks that inequality is not getting worse, when 74 percent of New Zealanders believe that the gap between rich and poor has increased under his Government, or does he side with the 3 percent who think that the gap has narrowed?
That proposes that English is out of touch if he thinks the gap has not increased, using a poll as evidence.
Parker tries to push the poll point:
Hon David Parker: I seek leave to table the results of the Herald-DigiPoll, which showed that 74 percent of New Zealand…
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The point has been made.
Then he said:
Hon David Parker: Why can the Minister not see that rising inequality under National goes against the egalitarian values that New Zealanders hold dear, is making educational outcomes worse, and is holding back economic growth?
That’s a clear suggestion of “rising inequality under National” following his use of the poll several times to suggest that inequality was rising and that English was out of touch if he didn’t agree that it was rising.
Parker used an opinion poll to try and argue against English, Gini and the MSD statistics.
Anything that shows up the Left as being iffy will be used as proof as bias against the left and completely disregarded, anything that shows up the Right as being iffy will be praised and lauded
Surely the fact being checked is simple whether or not the data supports English’s assertion that inequality is “flat or slightly declining”. To do so you should look at a range of measures, including the Gini coefficient, but not EXCLUSIVELY the Gini coefficient. From the above discussion (Karol’s comments), it appears that some measures do support Parker’s point.
The part about Parker citing an opinion poll is largely irrelevant. You are nitpicking about a small aspect of the inequality argument (a particular exchange during question time) rather than looking at the issue as a whole. If some other data support Parker’s point, than these data are obviously a lot more relevant to the “fact” in question, rather than what Parker might have said during that exchange in question time.
Parker used an opinion poll to try and argue against English, Gini and the MSD statistics.
Nope. The poll was used to point out that English is out of touch. Parker didn’t argue about gini or MSD stats (most of the latter agree with parker, but what the hey).
Basically, You’re arguing that because Gini is fairly flat, inequality is not increasing under national. What about after-tax Gini? Or other, more precise, measures of income distribution? International measures are chosen because they are internationally-comparable, not necessarily because they are the best national or sub-national measure.
I’m not arguing about whether Gini is the best measure of inequality or whether inequality is increasing, flat or decreasing – I expect statistics can be found that apply to all possibilities. I said that Gini is an accepted international comparison.
English looks to have based his claim on the MSD Gini, which would base his argument on official published statistics.
Parker seems to be trying to argue against English/MSD/Gini and promotes public opinion as more pertinent and more in touch.
I’d be worried if our Minister of Finance based his position on a single opinion poll rather than on official statistics complied over decades – that would be seriously out of touch with reality.
lol
So you’re checking the facts without actually checking the facts?
You seem to be missing the point about why Parker used the poll.
Parker’s position seems to have been that inequality is rising, and most people know it.
If most people can see it, but English can’t, then English is out of touch with most NZers.
The only way for English to counter this is to argue that inequality is flat or decreasing, i.e. that he knows something that most NZers do not.
BTW, why is “international comparison” needed when we’re only looking at conditions within NZ? That’s like arguing that PISA scores are the only valid evaluation of education in NZ.
You seem to be missing the point, and reinforce the folly of using an opinion poll to make an argument.
English indicated he accepts that people can have the opinion that inequality has increased but he says the accepted measure says otherwise.
Hon David Parker: Is he so out of touch that he thinks that inequality is not getting worse, when 74 percent of New Zealanders believe that the gap between rich and poor has increased under his Government, or does he side with the 3 percent who think that the gap has narrowed?
Hon BILL ENGLISH: That member may be a stranger to the facts, but I am not. The measuring system of the previous Government, which, I understand, was a Labour Government, was such that regular reporting on inequality was carried out by highly qualified professionals. That is the information on which we relied for the statement that inequality in New Zealand has not got worse in the last few years.
Grant Robertson: Everyone else is wrong.
Hon BILL ENGLISH: I accept that some people believe that. The fact is it is not correct.
The last Labour Government’s system of measurement (Parker was in that Government) and the National Government’s system of measurement says that inequality has flat lined since 1998.
Taking the side of the majority in one poll, whose opinions are contradicted by the official system of measurement over many years, seems out of touch for an MP doesn’t it?
Can someone ask David Parker if he intends running the country’s finances by opinion poll?
Can someone ask David Parker if he intends running the country’s finances by opinion poll?
This is being disingenuous to an extreme. You are taking a single example of an argument by Parker and extrapolating it to mean that Parker ALWAYS and ONLY uses such arguments to guide his reasoning. He NEVER said that the opinion poll was the ideal basis for running the country’s finance. He simply used the opinion poll as EXAMPLE of where English was wrong. It might not have been an ideal argument but it is only an EXAMPLE, and nothing more.
You seem to be missing the point, and reinforce the folly of using an opinion poll to make an argument.
It’s not a folly if the argument is that English is out of touch.
The last Labour Government’s system of measurement (Parker was in that Government) and the National Government’s system of measurement says that inequality has flat lined since 1998.
One measure says inequality has flatlined.
Several other measures of inequality have not, e.g. the <50/60% median, BHC/AHC.
Taking the side of the majority in one poll, whose opinions are contradicted by the official system of measurement over many years, seems out of touch for an MP doesn’t it?
If there were only one perfect measure of inequality, you might have a point. It’s not, you don’t, and most New Zealanders know it (as demonstrated by parker’s poll).
Can someone ask David Parker if he intends running the country’s finances by opinion poll?
Can someone ask politicheck if they’ll keep a tory propagandist as editor?
Yes but it wa a ridiculous and invalid example and indicative of an approach to reasoning that should be scrutinised by the public.
There is no problem with inequality in New Zealand that is not being aggressively addressed by the current government. What do you want? Higher taxes and more welfare? Because that works brilliantly.
We need efficient markets, better education and better parenting.
What do you want to “fix” inequality? There will always be inequality. It is a good thing. If the plan from the left is higher taxes, a baby bonus, and a living wage (sic) we will simply go down the Argentinian road. Some Government regulator will decide what wages should be instead of the market!!
If we want a prosperous future there really is no alternative to the current policy settings. My suggestion would be to deepen them much further.
Mcfluck – I suggest for your next holiday you take a world tout encompassing Argentina, the USA, the UK, Greece, Singapore, Shanghai, and Sweden. It will be time well spent. You seriously have no clue about economics, life, poverty, or anything except poisonous envy.
SSpylands, if inequality is “being aggressively addressed by the current government”, why is English’s own most favourable estimate of it that it’s static?
They’ve had almost 6 years to address it.
What do you want? Higher taxes and more welfare? Because that works brilliantly.
yes, yes it does. Alongside more education, healthcare, and other social services.
As for the TINA bullshit, that’s just more religious dogma from our resident retard.
I’d be worried if our Minister of Finance based his position on a single opinion poll rather than on official statistics complied over decades – that would be seriously out of touch with reality.
I too would be worried. But Parker has not done so. He simply used the opinion poll during a question in parliament. Perhaps he didn’t have the facts at hand to counter English’s statement (e.g. those pointed out earlier in this thread). Perhaps he did have the facts but chose a different approach and decided to use the opinion poll instead, rightly or wrongly. But he has not said that his position is ENTIRELY based on a single poll, he simply cited the poll as one piece of evidence in support of his position.
You seem to be “fact checking” the quality of English’s and Parker’s debating skills, rather than “fact checking” the facts themselves. Here is a simple question for you:
Is the Herald digipoll (cited by Parker) the only piece of evidence that supports the assertion that inequality in NZ is growing?
I’m not arguing about whether Gini is the best measure of inequality or whether inequality is increasing, flat or decreasing – I expect statistics can be found that apply to all possibilities. I said that Gini is an accepted international comparison.
This is an extremely troubling assertion to be coming from a “fact checker”. You seem to be saying that statistics can be found to support any position. But instead of reviewing a large number of statistics to determine their relative pros and cons and citing a number of such statistics to present a balanced view on the topic, you will simply pick one in a semi-arbitrary way and base your whole argument on this single “fact”.
It shouldn’t be troubling if you understand statistics, They’re not facts. You can say different things with different sets of statistics.
If you compare the 1978 Gini with the 2012 Gini it can show that inequality is flat (on those two years down 0.1),
If you compare the 1985 Gini with the 2011 Gini it suggests inequality has risen significantly.
And that’s using one measure, when you measure and index something as complex as income variations across a country’s population there are many factors that can effect different outcomes.
I had no intention of doing an in depth analysis of different ways of measuring inequality. If someone wants to attempt that then go for it. It’s not for me to say if one measure is better or worse than another.
The point on this issue is that I haven’t picked one “in a semi-arbitrary way”, I picked the one the past Labour Government, the OECD and many countries use, the one that uses decades of data, and deduced that was the one Bill English used.
And I pointed out that David Parker picked a one off opinion poll and seemed to be using that to argue against it.
Don’t you think one official measure, any credible statistical measure, would be more sensible for a finance spokesperson to use than a one off opinion poll?
How many times will you attempt to get this lie to stick, Petty George? Parker used the opinion poll as a measure of whether English is in touch with the electorate. If you’re going to tell lies in public this will reflect poorly on your employer, as though the choice to employ you wasn’t enough of a pratfall.
It shouldn’t be troubling if you understand statistics, They’re not facts. You can say different things with different sets of statistics.
No, it is very troubling and I do understand statistics. They are facts, insofar as you are aware of the limitations imposed by the way they are measured. If you really think statistics are completely subjective, as you seem to be implying, you have no business being a “fact checker” of any kind.
If you compare the 1978 Gini with the 2012 Gini it can show that inequality is flat (on those two years down 0.1),
No, it shows that the 1978 Gini is similar to the 2012 Gini. It says nothing about the trend for the years in between.
If you compare the 1985 Gini with the 2011 Gini it suggests inequality has risen significantly.
Yes, it shows that the 1985 Gini is lower than the 2012 Gini. But it says nothing about the trend for the years in between.
And that’s using one measure, when you measure and index something as complex as income variations across a country’s population there are many factors that can effect different outcomes.
Yes, which is why it is important that one understands the way the statistics were measured and their likely flaws and benefits when interpreting them.
I had no intention of doing an in depth analysis of different ways of measuring inequality. If someone wants to attempt that then go for it. It’s not for me to say if one measure is better or worse than another.
Isn’t this the role of a fact checker?
The point on this issue is that I haven’t picked one “in a semi-arbitrary way”, I picked the one the past Labour Government, the OECD and many countries use, the one that uses decades of data, and deduced that was the one Bill English used.
Yes, exactly. Semi-arbitrary. Other people have used it so you used it as well, without evaluating whether or not it is the best measure. Doing the latter would be non-arbitrary.
…deduced that was the one Bill English used.
So when you went looking for “facts”, you decided to pick the piece of evidence that agrees with Bill English’s view?
And I pointed out that David Parker picked a one off opinion poll and seemed to be using that to argue against it.
Don’t you think one official measure, any credible statistical measure, would be more sensible for a finance spokesperson to use than a one off opinion poll?
Yes, I agree that other measures would have been more appropriate than an opinion poll. David Parker’s argument was not a solid one. I did not say otherwise. To be clear, I have no issue with you deciding that an opinion poll is not a reliable source of evidence for this issue. But I do have an issue with you focusing on the opinion poll as the only piece of evidence that supports Parker’s position. It is not the only fact that supports his view. I do not agree that he is basing his position solely on that opinion poll. To suggest he is doing so is extremely disingenuine. And you refuse to even look at any evidence to prove that English might be wrong.
I honestly cannot believe what I am reading from you. Are your colleagues aware of these views? If I was one of your researchers, I would quit if I heard this from you.
I think you’re trying to make much more of this than it warrants.
There was no need to evaluate whether the measure English uses is ‘the best’ or not. That’s a pointless exercise in fact checking, in fact it’s impossible. It involves judgement, balancing many factors and coordination with other countries if it’s to be any use.
If you think it would be a good thing to ‘fact check’ then do it. Let us decide what we want to check.
In my opinion the measure English should use is the one chosen by our Governments to use in conjunction with other countries. For him to base his argument on something that he personally thinks is ‘best’ or you tell him might be better is ludicrous.
Parker only used the poll in his argument in Parliament yesterday, and as that question in Parliament is the issue we covered then of course we should focus on that.
I also emailed Parker and asked:
Do you think an opinion poll is valid evidence?
Do you have anything else to support your claims?
So he has the opportunity to widen it to other factors if he wishes. That’s up to him. Otherwise I have no idea what he was thinking about when he ran his line of questioning yesterday.
“If you compare the 1978 Gini with the 2012 Gini it can show that inequality is flat (on those two years down 0.1),
If you compare the 1985 Gini with the 2011 Gini it suggests inequality has risen significantly.”
That’s not saying different things with different sets of statistics, that’s arbitrarily choosing datapoints and claiming that the difference between them is somehow meaningful.
I’m not sure you’re the right guy for this fact checking stuff.
“I didn’t explain that example very well, but it was a comment on a blog, it wasn’t a fact check.”
And yet, you appear to be claiming that misrepresenting the facts by reference to a misleading use of statistics is the same as “say[ing] different things with different sets of statistics.”
If the above is what you believe (and I can only take your word for it), you don’t know the difference between “fact” and “spin.” This must make it very difficult for you perform the role of “fact checker.”
but Pete, you based the entire Politicheck article* on the premise the data Bill English used is accurate.
to quote weizguy
“that’s arbitrarily choosing datapoints and claiming that the difference between them is somehow meaningful.”
Your entire argument is based on ignoring this premise, this reality, this FACT. Politicheck is running out of credibility faster than you can post apologist blather. And then you have the temerity to bitch about having to do it. These are comments you would not have to post here if comments were allowed on your new blog, but then you couldn’t romp around posting replies on everyone else’s blog thus creating the very distraction that I suspect Politicheck was set up to be. Not to mention artifically creating interest in Politicheck by appropriating readerships built up by the hard work of others.
p.s.
is there an explanation coming to explain the difference between a “pending” verdict and an “interim” verdict, because I admit I am a bit confused there.
*Is there some special name are we meant to call them?
I thought engaging might work. If it’s going to end up in pointless nitpicking and irrelevant criticism here then maybe not but it was worth a try. If it’s going to be be overtaken by negativity then I’ll direct my efforts elsewhere.
In politics there are always some who, if they don’t like an outcome, will do anything to discredit. I knew that before deciding to give this a go.
Why the Gini? Why not the decile dispersal ratio? I mean, if you’re fact checking you don’t want to rely on something just because it’s popular when something else might actually uncover the facts?
As for Parker – Fact Check – it was pretty clear he was making a statement about English being out of touch with the general public, with an opinion poll to illustrate that, not making a statement about inequality based on an opinion poll.
In politics there are always some who, if they don’t like an outcome, will do anything to discredit. I knew that before deciding to give this a go.
That’s where “facts” are supposed to come in.
What claims were made, and are they true?
Claim:Most people think inequality is getting worse.
True/false: Parker cited a survey that suggests this is true
Claim: English does not think inequality is getting worse.
True/false: True – he cited Gini to suggest that inequality is static or slightly improving.
Claim: English is out of touch from most people because he disagrees with most people about current trends in inequality.
True/false: English disagrees with most people about current trends in inequality.
If inequality is getting worse, then “out of touch” is a reasonable description of having opinions that diverge from fact and common perception.
If inequality is improving, then he’s just smarter than most people.
Is inequality improving?
Most official measures listed here suggest that inequality is getting worse. Before-tax Gini is trending flat. Conclusion: Bill English is probably out of touch
” pointless nitpicking” ??
I have seen a string of very valid questions about process, research methods and integrity of data. What did you expect in your little engagement fantasy?
As for my own nit picking…Asking for clarity of the site’s vernacular is not pointless when the site is a FACT CHECKING SITE. Don’t you want people to be able to discuss accurately what is posted there?
So sorry you feel that the list of valid questions raised these past two days is not what your cunning plan imagined.
As for the “don’t like an outcome” drivel. I believe, based on comments these past 48 hours, that what people don’t like is the lack of difference between what is happening on Politicheck and what you do everywhere else.
Hope next week goes better and I look forward to your budget for poor people too.
The graph illustrates that the gap has been widening.
The source is cited as from Treasury (although this might have been before the correction to their numbers were made, therefore the situation might be worse than this chart indicates)
Also, it’s not hard to look back at some of the things Dabvid Cunliffe and Davide Parker have said, to find the kind of statistics they have been referring to re- their statements about increases in inequality.
Hon David Parker: Does the decline in homeownership to the lowest level in six decades demonstrate rising inequality in New Zealand; if not, why not?
On 30 January:
3. Hon DAVID PARKER (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree that asset and income inequality have increased over the past 30 years; if not, why not?
[…]
Hon David Parker: Does he agree that existing income inequality leads to ever-increasing asset inequality; if not, why not?
[…]
Hon David Parker: Thank you. Does the measure of income inequality that he relies upon include all capital income?
In their respective state of the nation speeches, Prime Minister John Key said income inequality in this country was declining while Labour leader David Cunliffe yesterday said there was an increasing gap between the haves and have-nots as the wealthiest continued to do well, those in the middle struggled to stay there and those at the bottom went backwards.
Analysis from the Ministry of Social Development, which Mr Key’s comment was based on, does little to support either claim.
[…]
With no clear trend, the ministry analysis doesn’t support Labour’s view that inequality is increasing but Labour argues that work doesn’t tell the full story. It argues the data it is based on doesn’t include much of the income more well-off New Zealanders get from realising assets. It is exactly that income Labour would target with its capital gains tax.
What the ministry’s analysis does point out is that wealth is distributed more unequally than income.
From your quotes it looks very clear to me that Parker was not using the poll to provide evidence of inequality (that comes from many other sources, as I’m sure your research will confirm) but, rather, to provide evidence that Bill English is “out of touch” with what most New Zealanders think.
That is the obvious meaning of Parker’s second question that you cite (and that mentions the poll). It is not a difficult meaning to parse Pete George, so why did you miss it?
It’s OK for our national hero and government subsidy recipient Sir Peter Jackson to own Nazi memorabilia, but Kim Dotcom’s own collection has caused a massive general outrage. Racist much?
You give every appearance of being supremely unaware of a hell of a lot of stuff, DotCom was not running a political party when He purchased the investtment either…
Rob, sorry to see you join the coalition of the brainless, If the plane in question is a world war one fighter plane why then does the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre with Peter Jackson as the Chairman choose to display it with a Nazi Swastika on the tail…
Draco, you are indeed correct, my apologies to Sir(spit)Peter Jackson for any illusion created toward Him for owning Nazi war memorabilia,
Sir Peter(spit)Jackson being a Knight of the British realm and chairman of the Omaka Aviation Heritage Center seemed perfectly happy to have on display a Swastika bearing Nazi era air-plane for both the public and He and she who would be King and Queen of that British realm,
it appears that another member of the Omaka Aviation Heritage center may own the plane that bares the Nazi Swastika on its tail…
British war museums frequently have German equipment on display. It’s important historical context for a museum. I know the RAF museum in Kent has a German plane or two.
And nor is the private owner of the swastika emblazoned world war 2 German fighter plane ”a museum”, the fact is that it is displayed at a museum which Jackson is the Chairman of with a gratuitous and unnecessary display of the Nazi emblem flashed across the world by the press contingent following the Woyal spongers…
God your a form of bottom feeding swamp amoeba who having run out of argument resorts to insult as the currency of discourse and then whines like a beaten dog when the insults are returned in kind…
lol, so in some ways the swastika /sauwastika orientation is a graphical Hindu/Buddhist thing similar to pronouncing “H” as “aitch” or “haitch” depending on whether you’re a Belfast Catholic or Protestant?
What we must fear now is not “Nazism” or even violence from radical right wing skinhead types (a la Ukraine) unpleasant as that is; it is corporate-surveillance state totalitarianism which is going to shape the next 10 years of global government. And it is something which we can see already morphing into it’s final form – a kind of anonymous corporate run neo-feudalism where 5% of the population get very special privileges and the other 95% are serfs and proles.
Project Satan (2019 to 3001) was built by humans in the past, as a military project to create the most evil car possible. Project Satan, the original were-car, was built from parts of other evil cars, of which the following was identified:
The steering wheel from Adolf Hitler’s staff car
The left turn signal from Charles Manson’s Volkswagen
The windshield wipers from KITT, the car in Knight Rider
The electric motor from Ed Begley Junior’s car
I honestly don’t have the time to continue arguing your straw-men, so yeah, I just kind of just gave up. I don’t argue with small children either and they seem more coherent than you.
I like The Standard. There’s a lot of insightful opinions here. Yours isn’t one of them and I feel like I just get sucked in trying to educate you. So from now, I’ll just be ignoring your comments.
Thinking about history. lprent commented yesterday on the difficulty of introducing worthy policies incrementally when there is no spur of disaster or tragedy or threat to provide impetus. At least that’s my interpretation of his thinking.
I thought about the quote of politics and what is possible so looked up Wikipedia and got German political history and Otto von Bismarck. Which has something to say to us here and now I think.
Good stuff to note. Goodreads gives quote –
Otto von Bismarck
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”
(Other quotes stop halfway at possible – which doesn’t offer the fully rounded thought.)
Looking at Wikipedia.
Interesting man von Bismarck. He formed a unified Germany after a series of short , sharp wars then everything settled down between 1870-1880 and one historian says “Bismarck was an honest broker of peace; and his system of alliances compelled every Power, whatever its will, to follow a peaceful course. ”
So he became an honest broker of peace. Maybe his path can teach us something about the difficulty of playing politics. Sort of like chess with ten side games all at the same time.
“He was the master of complex politics at home. He created a new bureaucratic, efficiency-oriented nation-state. He created the first welfare state in the modern world, with the goal of gaining working class support that might otherwise go to the Socialists he opposed.
He allied himself first with the Liberals (who were anti-Catholic) and fought the Catholic Church in a culture war (the Kulturkampf). He lost that battle as the Catholics responded by forming a powerful Center party and using universal male suffrage to gain a bloc of seats.
Bismarck then reversed himself, ended the culture war, broke with the Liberals, and formed a political alliance with the Center party.
A devout Lutheran, he was loyal to his king, who in turn gave Bismarck his full support, against the advice of his wife and his heir.
While Germany’s parliament was elected by universal male suffrage, it did not have real control of the government. Bismarck distrusted democracy and ruled through a strong, well-trained bureaucracy with power in the hands of a Junker elite that represented the landed aristocracy of the east.
Bismarck, an aristocratic Junker himself, had an extremely aggressive and domineering personality. He displayed a violent temper and kept his power by threatening to resign time and again.
He didn’t do all possible though. He was a monarchist and did not take steps to strengthen constitutional control over the Emperor. The Emperor in the end did not reward him with the lands and standing that he felt he deserved and had earned.
And his attributes were built into a myth of him as an uncompromising powerful figure ‘the man of blood and iron’ that influenced people’s thinking between 1918 and 1933.
Gerwarth (2007) shows that the Bismarck myth, built up predominantly during his years of retirement and even more stridently after his death, proved a powerful rhetorical and ideological tool.
The myth made him out to be a dogmatic ideologue and ardent nationalist when, in fact, he was ideologically flexible. This myth proved to be a weapon against the Weimar Republic, and exercised a destructive influence on the political culture of the first German democracy. Frankel (2005) shows the Bismarck cult fostered and legitimized a new style of right-wing politics, and made possible the post-Bismarckian crisis of leadership, both real and perceived, that had Germans seeking the strongest possible leader and asking, “What Would Bismarck Do?”
So I think that people who don’t really understand what is going on and have no vision of what they want and how to get there, are clearly vulnerable to propaganda which goes against their best interests and prevents their otherwise proper, sensible behaviour.
That I think seems to fit NZ’s position and direction at present.
The comments of amirite and Bad12 are being directed at Jackson’s own Nazi memorabilia. Which is bizarre because:
A: It’s a museum. Nowhere does it say Jackson own the museum (and if he does… it’s still a museum).
B: The article specifically mentioned he owns WWI memorabilia. Which predates Nazism.
Let me help you out here: Sir Peter Jackson = Bad and KDC = Good therefore any mud flung at Sir Peter Jackson is good because hes bad especially if it can take the heat of KDC who is good
Lolz if you Google ”planes owned by Sir Peter Jackson” there is a link to a page full of pictures including one of Sir Perter(spit) Himself with the swastika emblazoned fighter plane as the backdrop,(about three quarters of the way down the page),
There is no indication that Jackson owns the plane but as Chariman of the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre seems happy enough to display said plane complete with swastika to the Woyals,the world press and the public…
It would be a better use of said peasant’s time and energy than sitting writing much of the dross that is seen on here. Some people have too much time on their hands. They would be better to have a rag in their fingers and be cleaning something.
Comment of the day Greywarbler, it actually saddens me when people cant even have enough respect for themselves, the people they are referring to or the readers here to correctly use someones name without the bullshit name calling
Mainlander
We aren’t playing cricket here. More beach rounders. And even if it were cricket there are always the unfair moves, the underarm bowling, the nose-breaking fast-ball bowling. Now that’s not cricket! That’s not playing the game fairly.
We actually are quite good natured towards those we basically respect even if they are lacking in some important features, and offer relatively mild expletives in discussing those. We don’t respect those who don’t give a stuff about anyone but themselves and their own interests. They get the message that they are vicious low lives. From me anyway.
So we can all agree your earlier comment, “Can we expect Blubber boy over at ‘wail oil’ to start screeching any moment alluding to Jackson’s Nazi sympathies” was a waste of pixels?
If the plane bearing the Nazi insignia was as you say a world war 1 fighter then it is an even more utterly gratuitous and unnecessary display of the Swastika by an organization headed by Sir(spit)Peter Jackson…
just to clarify, according to the report the toff was touring PJ’s aircraft collection.
Toff sat in a british WW1 fighter.
Toff declined to sit in german WW1 fighter (no swastika).
Toff photographed walking past WW2 german plane, tail swastika in frame.
Take-home message: PJ, a rich NZer, buys lots of war shit. Because his collection is so large he can open it to the public, tories think it is defensible because it’s a “museum”.
KDC, a rich NZ resident, buys a lot of war shit. Because it’s not a collection of planes, tories think it’s indicative of a character failing.
I reckon both are indicative of someone having more money than impulse control.
If KDC only had a signed copy of the book then fine but its not just the book, its the helmet and the flag plus the comments by his friend and the rumours are swirling theres more to come
Sir Peter Jackson may have a plane with a swastika on it.
Theres quite a bit of difference but being from the left you’re probably thinking (wishing, hoping) that KDC can “get” John Key
If a National MP owned a signed copy of Mein Kampf would you lot on the left let it go or defend it?
I’m not sure they are using either book. I don’t think being able to read is a requirement for being a Nact MP or supporter. Would also help to explain some of those terrible ministerial gaffs. Unread briefing papers.
It’s somewhat amusing that the deluded right is harping on about somebody owning a book. Perhaps they might be happy if every copy of Mein Kampf was put in a pile and burnt?
If that knowledge was destroyed, how exactly would people learn about the mindset of one of the most dangerous men to ever live in order to hopefully prevent history from repeating itself?
Let me copy my post to someone else who said the same thing a few days ago:
“Oh for crying out loud. This is the argument that most frustrates me. It’s like we lose all concepts of subtleness when this type of conversation comes up.
No one is saying that Kim Dotcom can’t own the book. We’re not saying that it should be burned. We’re not saying that people who own Mein Kampf should be thrown into prison.
All that is being said is that people should perhaps judge a person who decide to buy a signed copy of it for something besides being a historical researcher. Just as Dotcom has the right to buy it, we have the right to judge him for it.
But no, there’s a lot of crows flying around in the sky, you keep building that straw-man.”
The only WW2 plane there, a Fw190 in the colours of Nazi Germany’s Luftwaffe, does not belong to Peter Jackson. Jackson collects WW1 aircraft. In WW1, the royal families of England and Germany were very closely related, so Wills could have hopped into a Fokker Triplane that flew in the service of great uncle Wilhelm.
I have no time for the royal family, the smelly bearded hobbit called Jackson, or Key, but in the absence of real fact checkers in this thread, I thought I should point this out.
xox I never considered that a trade deal with China would have ended up with NZ being corrupted. Reminds me of when I witnessed a recent Chinese migrant scraping out his wok in the tennis club car park!
I never considered that a trade deal with China would have ended up with NZ being corrupted.
I did. In fact, I thought it was inevitable that it would and that we should be questioning the effects of other trade deals including relationship with the WTO.
What a nonsensical comment – the article has nought to do with “welfare dependency” and everything to do with a doctor going completely off the reservation.
“going off the reservation” is a term that imo shouldn’t be used because of the historical weight behind what happened to the people on and off the reservation.
and as importantly, education and contraception needs to better delivered to those who are potentially sexually active, therefore reducing the demand for abortion.
The Greens knew what the response would be. It was a bullshit approach to smear Labour. Norman and his white middle class NIMBY party are worried that LABOUR will regain the social democrats that drifted away under Goff n Shearer/ Robertson. It was a drliberate attempt to put Cunliffe in a negative light.
At local level some Greens operate with a sense of entitlement toward Labour, expecting Labour to collaborate with them in one way relationships. Good on them if they get away with it. Labour people should be a lot sharper in dealing with the Greens.
After this effort by Norman to damage Labour we should appoint stronger spokespersons in the environmental and transport portfolios. We should never leave such critical areas to the Greens.
Cunliffe could have skittled this dastardly plot by saying:
“Yep sure; it’s obvious that Greens and Labour will have to work together to form the next government, and fair enough that the executive reflect the support each party has. If voters porefer that the next party be more Labour than green, then that’s how they should vote.”
But no, his brains trust advised him that the best thing to do was to hint to the 70% of his own voters who prefer a green partner to a NZF one, that he kinda disagrees, and is more concerned about what tories think than what his own voters prefer.
Everyone who can count to 50 knows G and L will have to work together. Pretending otherwise makes Labour look like they aren’t ready to do that and that the relationship won’t really work. That leaves centrists who just want competant government voting National, and Green leaning labour voters moving to the Greens to force labour’s hand.
But, but……..
Bradbury thinks Cunliffe is doing the right thing in pinning his hopes on Winston and should cuddle up even more. Whether this is happening or not, I have no idea, but I know I’ll save at least an hour a day not reading the Daily Bog. Lately, it seems to be a mixture of Bomber’s latest nonsense and a dozen or so hard working right wing trolls. At least here I get some good articles, a wider variety of rubbbish, and fewer right wing trolls. I have never really understood why anyone on the left has ever aligned themselves with Bradbury, and time has not been enlightening.
“At local level some Greens operate with a sense of entitlement toward Labour, expecting Labour to collaborate with them in one way relationships.”
Examples please?
Seems odd because at a national level it’s traditionally been NZFirst (and Dunne) who have insisted on having a relationship with Labour that excludes the Greens.
NO WONDER David Cameron has been slow to follow President Obama’s call for economic sanctions “imposing a cost on Russia” over Ukraine: not only does he have to worry about the City’s enthusiasm for Russian money, but Putin-friendly businessmen are among his party’s biggest donors.
Ian Taylor, boss of giant oil-trading firm Vitol, gave the Tories £134,000 last year, a sum which buys him private meetings with the prime minister. His donations since 2006 total more than £600,000.
that’s half the story; the other half is that the workers and peoples movements who had the leverage to force politicians to act in the interests of the many have all been systematically undermined or co-opted.
Like the unions who gave the OK to the Labour caucus to raise the retirement age if the MPs wanted to. Good one, guys.
I’m going to stick with Labour; the party needs an active and radical left wing element to stir up it’s overly centrist, short time horizon and Thorndon focussed outlook.
I just read this article on how drought and disease is destroying major agriculture producing areas of the USA and Brazil. Change is coming, and NZ must be ready for it. This endless talk of “growth” and “balancing the budgets” is utter bullshit and someone at the top needs to start saying so ASAP.
A shame because perhaps your energies might be better spent on parties that have more focus on issues and less focus on capturing the centrist vote. (?)
BL, thank you. In truth I suspect the genuine shame is in working with any political parties whatsoever. There is a strong case that our personal energies should be diverted away from Thorndon bubble hunger games and back into building constructive initiatives right in ones own local community.
That’s actually a concern. Under the present free-market ideology that would push up prices for food produced here which means more would be exported which would increase food poverty here. We’d probably see an increase in deaths from malnourishment unless the government stepped in to stop exports.
A good article on why we should take care of our world and put tariffs back on imports:
This means we have a moral duty to adopt the golden rules. Fouling one’s nest is a ‘race to the bottom’ type of behaviour. Further, we have a moral duty to maintain the integrity of our capitalist system to ensure that the costs associated with market activities are paid by the parties to those activities. Taxes (or other ‘cost internalising’ mechanisms) should be used to both compensate third party victims and to disincentivise fouling activities.
This morning’s Radionz news. Deja vu all over again. Piss stories and David drawing back from the taint of future thinking, goodbye hopes for Labour moving forward. He is settling into sensible Helen mode. I suggest that any young people eschew the names David and Richard and John. Look for more inspiring and attractive names. It’s into the bin with these ones.
Helen saved Labour till it was ready to move on up but now it lacks the map, it’s groping in the dark with the old walls gone that you could follow to guide your way. We now need someone bold like Sir Edmund Hillary, like Shackleton able to hold his team together, his talented men with skills to overcome odds and the internal fortitude to keep going in difficult and dangerous times to reach a defined goal, able to adapt to overcome obstacles.
But Labour is flopping like a beached whale coming back on who knows which directional signal, but ending up in the same place no matter what effort helpers exert to set it free. But then why should we be different than other country’s left Labour lack-of-movements. Oz right, UK right. The dingy dinghy bobs along behind the big boys. Keep bailing you down there, we red pollies want to keep our perches and sit and jabber the lines we have learned but we don’t understand.
Yes it does weigh me down on both shoulders, the sadness that we are faced with in our pathetic political party poltroons. A little alliteration lightens the load temporarily. But it is no joke, and not to be dealt with by smart comments, a quick slur or sneer from NotaPsStaffer.
Russell Norman committed the stupid sin of going like a supplicant to KimDotComs Mansion in Coatesville. See the posts on the 13th -15th February.
This latest play by Norman is not just stupid. It is a deliberate attempt to embarrass Cunliffe.
Precious Norman had a free run in Parliament when Shearer/Robertson failed miserably to make Labour a strong voice of opposition to the government.
Cunliffe is the Official Leader of the Opposition. That is his title. Now Labour has a leader who is also the leading voice of opposition in Parliament. Norman can’t hack it and is paying games.
I hope Cunliffe has a witness and a note-taker with him any time he meets with Russel Norman. Norman has shown the capacity to be stupid and nasty, a dangerous mix for a party leader.
A key audience for such amateur House of Cards behaviour is the Governor General, who will have his choice of an unstable amalgam with 80% chance of exploding in a term, or a massive single party supported (probably) by Confidence and Supply.
It would be tricky, but I could see him offering first bid at forming government to Key in that situation. The GG in fact implied as much. – see old Bowalley Rd post on his speech last year.
Hopefully Cunliffe and Norman know they must learn lessons from this week.
Since Easter slides us into May, it’s 5 months to go.
I do not disagree with you (Not a PS Staffer) here but, there is a but, the Official Leader of the Opposition (as you say) and his team still have their own options of responding in a way that sidesteps, confronts or diffuses any potential embarrassment (whether intentional embarrassment, or unintentional as the case may well be, and whatever the good intention or sinister motivation might possibly be). How difficult would it be for that OLotO to say something such as has been suggested by PB @ 6.1?
Friday today and with the weekend coming up, it is quite questionable what has been achieved the past week and particularly where things the recent few days have put Labour especially for Labour’s 70%, how much has been done to bring out the so-called million M.I.A. (missing in action) from the previous election, and to what extent the pronouncements of recent days have chipped away at Nats support. If it feels like Labour is still treading water, being in a state that feels like there have been some motion but with little distance being made, why are people not surprised?
I have a lot more to say but will have to address my work-weblife balance in favour of the former this afternoon.
Looking forward to posting and sharing some curry recipes on Weekend Social that I indicated I was going to do a few weeks ago.
edit: and yes, Ad adds very important points that I agree.
At the very least, people can presently say: imagine what the OLotO might be like now if the Membership did not have the opportunity to have a voice and DC’s predecessor had not ‘predeceased’?
In my considered opinion, Minister of Justice Judith Collins is CORRUPT and should be sacked forthwith.
What training , knowledge and understanding of CORRUPTION has the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff, Wayne Eagleson?
What training , knowledge and understanding of CORRUPTION have the (anonymous) Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC) staff purportedly dealing with CORRUPT conflicts of interest?
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the (in my considered opinion) CORRUPT Auditor-General, Lyn Provost, whom apparently wouldn’t know a corrupt ‘conflict of interest’ if it leapt up and bit her on the backside?
Petition of Penelope Mary Bright and 13 others
That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into why New Zealand Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City Entertainment Group Ltd at the time she declined to conduct an urgent investigation into the failure of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand to carry out ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre (Bill) 2013.
Petition number: 2011/101
Presented by: Denis O’Rourke
Date presented: 12 March 2014
Referred to: Finance and Expenditure Committee
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the NZ Serious Fraud Office, who deal with bribery and corruption complaints as ‘serious and complex fraud’ complaints – and then do nothing, as they did with a bribery and corruption complaint against Auckland Mayor Len Brown?
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the (in my considered opinion) hopelessly conflicted and compromised Transparency International NZ?
Transparency International New Zealand (TINZ) is the recognised New Zealand representative of Transparency International, the global civil society organisation against corruption. We are a not-for-profit incorporated society with charitable status. We are non-political and non-partisan.
Our Vision
A world in which the institutions of government, politics, business and civil society are built on strong integrity systems and the daily lives of people are free from corruption.
We Are
A caretaker of New Zealand’s high trust, high integrity society
Author of the “2013 New Zealand Integrity Plus National Integrity System Assessment”
The local chapter of Transparency International, the world leading anti-corruption agency and publisher of the Corruption Perceptions Index ”
Note – who is their Cornerstone Platinum ‘sponsor’?
Oh dear – The Office of the Auditor General ……………………….
Seriously – you couldn’t make this sh*t up!
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference
Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate (polling 4th with 11,723 votes, campaigning against CORRUPT corporate control of the Auckland region)
Just got told that there is a fundraiser on tonight in the Ellen Melville Hall.
I know nothing about it apart from it starts at 6pm (and there are tickets at the door?)
“It may make them look financially responsible but there’s no point if they’re not being socially responsible at the same time.” – NZ First Spokesperson for Social Policy, Le’aufa’amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor.
A nicely put thought from Mrs Lole-Taylor today on the subject of the National Government’s blind obsession, a budget surplus.
Haven’t heard about the latest from MH370 what with all the carryon from South Africa.
This from CNN 11/Apr/2014
As planes and boats scoured the Indian Ocean for more signals and signs of wreckage, a senior Malaysian government official and another source involved in the investigation divulged details about the flight to CNN on Thursday, including new information about what radar detected, the last words from the cockpit and how high the plane was flying after it went off the grid. So yet new information being revealed at this late stage. Why the delay?
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared from military radar for about 120 nautical miles after it crossed back over the Malay Peninsula, sources say. Based on available data, this means the plane must have dipped in altitude to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet, a senior Malaysian government official and a source involved in the investigation tell CNN….
“The real issue here is it looks like — more and more — somebody in the cockpit was directing this plane and directing it away from land,” said CNN aviation analyst and former National Transportation Safety Board Managing Director Peter Goelz. “And it looks as though they were doing it to avoid any kind of detection.” More paranoia from the USA. It wuz hijackers, the pilot etc. It sounds as if it is a response that reflects the person’s Safety Board job, rather than an opinion considering the facts. Then in contrast, what sounds like a voice of reason from former US Dept of Transportation Inspector who offers a theory that has some reasoning behind it.
But former U.S. Department of Transportation Inspector General Mary Schiavo was not convinced. She said the reported dip could have occurred in response to a loss of pressure, to reach a level where pressurization was not needed and those aboard the plane would have been able to breathe without oxygen, or to get out of the way of commercial traffic, which typically flies at higher altitudes.,,,,
The sources also told CNN that Malaysian air force search aircraft were scrambled about 8 a.m. March 8 to the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca, soon after Malaysia Airlines reported that its plane was missing. The aircraft took off before authorities corroborated data indicating that the plane turned back westward, a senior Malaysian government official told CNN.
But the air force did not inform the Department of Civil Aviation or search and rescue operations until three days later, March 11, [Tuesday] a source involved in the investigation told CNN. Can a country’s armed forces be trusted to tell the truth about their activities? First they didn’t tell their own Civil Aviation for 3 days. Then two days later another government entity denied it happened.
Later Thursday, communications officials from Malaysia’s Transportation Ministry denied that jets had scrambled shortly after the plane went missing, calling that claim a “false allegation.”
And Abbott today is gurgling on about a fifth ping that he says is definitely of value, while other sources say not. We can all be sure that the international airline system has reached its highest level on the Peter Principle.
Back in 2016, the Portuguese government announced plans to stop burning coal by 2030. But progress has come much quicker, and they're now scheduled to close their last coal plant by the end of this year: The Sines coal plant in Portugal went offline at midnight yesterday evening (14 ...
The Sincerest Form Of Flattery: As anybody with the intestinal fortitude to brave the commentary threads of local news-sites, large and small, will attest, the number of Trump-supporting New Zealanders is really quite astounding. IT’S SO DIFFICULT to resist the temptation to be smug. From the distant perspective of New Zealand, ...
RNZ reports on continued arbitrariness on decisions at the border. British comedian Russell Howard is about to tour New Zealand and other acts allowed in through managed isolation this summer include drag queen RuPaul and musicians at Northern Bass in Mangawhai and the Bay Dreams festival. The vice-president of the ...
As families around the world mourn more than two million people dead from Covid-19, the Plan B academics and their PR industry collaborator continue to argue that the New Zealand government should stop focusing on our managed isolation and quarantine system and instead protect the elderly so that they can ...
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 10, 2021 through Sat, Jan 16, 2021Editor's ChoiceNASA says 2020 tied for hottest year on record — here’s what you can do to helpPhoto by Michael Held on Unsplash ...
Health authorities in Norway are reporting some concerns about deaths in frail elderly after receiving their COVID-19 vaccine. Is this causally related to the vaccine? Probably not but here are the things to consider. According to the news there have been 23 deaths in Norway shortly after vaccine administration and ...
Happy New Year! No, experts are not concerned that “…one of New Zealand’s COIVD-1( vaccines will fail to protect the country” Here is why. But first I wish to issue an expletive about this journalism (First in Australia and then in NZ). It exhibits utter failure to actually truly consult ...
All nations have shadows; some acknowledge them. For others they shape their image in uncomfortable ways.The staunch Labour supporter was in despair at what her Rogernomics Government was doing. But she finished ‘at least, we got rid of Muldoon’, a response which tells us that then, and today, one’s views ...
Grigori GuitchountsIn November, Springer Nature, one of the world’s largest publishers of scientific journals, made an attention-grabbing announcement: More than 30 of its most prestigious journals, including the flagship Nature, will now allow authors to pay a fee of US$11,390 to make their papers freely available for anyone to read ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Gary Yohe, Henry Jacoby, Richard Richels, and Benjamin Santer Imagine a major climate change law passing the U.S. Congress unanimously? Don’t bother. It turns out that you don’t need to imagine it. Get this: The Global Change Research Act of 1990 was passed ...
“They’re here already! You’re next! You’re next! You’re next!”WHO CAN FORGET the penultimate scene of the 1956 movie classic, Invasion of the Body Snatchers? The wild-eyed doctor, stumbling down the highway, trying desperately to warn his fellow citizens: “They’re here already! You’re next! You’re next! You’re next!”Ostensibly science-fiction, the movie ...
TheOneRing.Net has got its paws on the official synopsis of the upcoming Amazon Tolkien TV series. It’s a development that brings to mind the line about Sauron deliberately releasing Gollum from the dungeons of Barad-dûr. Amazon knew exactly what they were doing here, in terms of drumming up publicity: ...
Since Dwight Eisenhower’s inauguration in 1953, US presidents have joined an informal club intended to provide support - and occasionally rivalry - between those few who have been ‘leaders of the free world’. Donald Trump, elected on a promise to ‘drain the swamp’ and a constant mocker of his predecessors, ...
For over a decade commentators have noted the rise of a new brand of explicitly ideological politics throughout the world. By this they usually refer to the re-emergence of national populism and avowedly illiberal approaches to governance throughout the “advanced” democratic community, but they also extend the thought to the ...
The US House of Representatives has just impeached Donald Trump, giving him the dubious honour of being the only US President to be impeached twice. Ten Republicans voted for impeachement, making it the most bipartisan impeachment ever. The question now is whether the Senate will rise to the occasion, and ...
Kieren Mitchell; Alice Mouton, Université de Liège; Angela Perri, Durham University, and Laurent Frantz, Ludwig Maximilian University of MunichThanks to the hit television series Game of Thrones, the dire wolf has gained a near-mythical status. But it was a real animal that roamed the Americas for at least 250,000 ...
Tide of tidal data rises Having cast our own fate to include rising sea level, there's a degree of urgency in learning the history of mean sea level in any given spot, beyond idle curiosity. Sea level rise (SLR) isn't equal from one place to another and even at a particular ...
Well, some of those chickens sure came home bigly, didn’t they… and proceeded to shit all over the nice carpet in the Capitol. What we were seeing here are societal forces that have long had difficulty trying to reconcile people to the “idea” of America and the reality of ...
In the wake of Donald Trump's incitement of an assault on the US capitol, Twitter finally enforced its terms of service and suspended his account. They've since followed that up with action against prominent QAnon accounts and Trumpers, including in New Zealand. I'm not unhappy with this: Trump regularly violated ...
Peter S. Ross, University of British ColumbiaThe Arctic has long proven to be a barometer of the health of our planet. This remote part of the world faces unprecedented environmental assaults, as climate change and industrial chemicals threaten a way of life for Inuit and other Indigenous and northern ...
Susan St John makes the case for taxing a deemed rate of return on excessive real estate holdings (after a family home exemption), to redirect scarce housing resources to where they are needed most. Read the full article here ...
I’m less than convinced by arguments that platforms like Twitter should be subject to common carrier regulation preventing them from being able to decide who to keep on as clients of their free services, and who they would not like to serve. It’s much easier to create competition for the ...
The hypocritical actions of political leaders throughout the global Covid pandemic have damaged public faith in institutions and governance. Liam Hehir chronicles the way in which contemporary politicians have let down the public, and explains how real leadership means walking the talk. During the Blitz, when German bombs were ...
Over the years, we've published many rebuttals, blog posts and graphics which came about due to direct interactions with the scientists actually carrying out the underlying research or being knowledgable about a topic in general. We'll highlight some of these interactions in this blog post. We'll start with two memorable ...
Yesterday we had the unseemly sight of a landleech threatening to keep his houses empty in response to better tenancy laws. Meanwhile in Catalonia they have a solution for that: nationalisation: Barcelona is deploying a new weapon in its quest to increase the city’s available rental housing: the power ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Jeff Masters, PhD The 2020 global wildfire season brought extreme fire activity to the western U.S., Australia, the Arctic, and Brazil, making it the fifth most expensive year for wildfire losses on record. The year began with an unprecedented fire event ...
NOTE: This is an excerpt from a digital story – read the full story here.Tess TuxfordKo te Kauri Ko Au, Ko te Au ko Kauri I am the kauri, the kauri is me Te Roroa proverb In Waipoua Forest, at the top of the North Island, New ...
Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Poster of the Week... SkS Week in Review... Story of the Week... Coming attraction: IPCC's upcoming major climate assessmentLook for more emphasis on 'solutions,' efforts by cities, climate equity ... and outlook for emissions cuts in ...
Ringing A Clear Historical Bell: The extraordinary images captured in and around the US Capitol Building on 6 January 2021 mirror some of the worst images of America's past.THERE IS A SCENE in the 1982 movie Missing which has remained with me for nearly 40 years. Directed by the Greek-French ...
To impact or not to impeach? I understand why some of those who are justifiably aghast at Trump’s behaviour over recent days might still counsel against impeaching him for a second time. To impeach him, they argue, would run the risk of making him a martyr in the eyes of ...
The Capitol Building, Washington DC, Wednesday, 6 January 2021. Oh come, my little one, come.The day is almost done.Be at my side, behold the sightOf evening on the land.The life, my love, is hardAnd heavy is my heart.How should I live if you should leaveAnd we should be apart?Come, let me ...
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 3, 2021 through Sat, Jan 9, 2021Editor's ChoiceAfter the Insurrection: Accountability, Reform, and the Science of Democracy The poisonous lies and enablers of sedition--including Senator Hawley, pictured ...
This article, guest authored by Prof. Angela Gallego-Sala & Dr. Julie Loisel, was originally published on the Carbon Brief website on Dec 21, 2020. It is reposted below in its entirety. Click here to access the original article and comments. Peatlands Peatlands are ecosystems unlike any other. Perpetually saturated, their ...
The assault on the US Capitol and constitutional crisis that it has caused was telegraphed, predictable and yet unexpected and confusing. There are several subplots involved: whether the occupation of the Michigan State House in May was a trial run for the attacks on Congress; whether people involved in the ...
On Christmas Eve, child number 1 spotted a crack in a window. It’s a double-glazed window, and inspection showed that the small, horizontal crack was in the outermost pane. It was perpendicular to the frame, about three-quarters of the way up one side. The origins are a mystery. It MIGHT ...
Anne-Marie Broudehoux, Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM)Will the COVID-19 pandemic prompt a shift to healthier cities that focus on wellness rather than functional and economic concerns? This is a hypothesis that seems to be supported by several researchers around the world. In many ways, containment and physical distancing ...
Does the US need to strike a grand bargain with like-minded countries to pool their efforts? What does this tell us about today’s global politics? Perhaps the most remarkable editorial of last year was the cover leader of the London Economist on 19 November 2020. Shortly after Joe Biden was ...
Alexander Gillespie, University of Waikato and Valmaine Toki, University of WaikatoAotearoa New Zealand likes to think it punches above its weight internationally, but there is one area where we are conspicuously falling behind — the number of sites recognised by the UNESCO World Heritage Convention. Globally, there are 1,121 ...
An event organised by the Auckland PhilippinesSolidarity group Have a three-course lunch at Nanam Eatery with us! Help support the organic farming of our Lumad communities through the Mindanao Community School Agricultural Foundation. Each ticket is $50. Food will be served on shared plates. To purchase, please email phsolidarity@gmail.com or ...
"Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." Prisons are places of unceasing emotional and physical violence, unrelieved despair and unforgivable human waste.IT WAS NATIONAL’S Bill English who accurately described New Zealand’s prisons as “fiscal and moral failures”. On the same subject, Labour’s Dr Martyn Findlay memorably suggested that no prison ...
This is a re-post from Inside Climate News by Ilana Cohen. Inside Climate News is a nonprofit, independent news organization that covers climate, energy and the environment. Sign up for the ICN newsletter here. Whether or not people accept the science on Covid-19 and climate change, both global crises will have lasting impacts on health and ...
. . American Burlesque As I write this (Wednesday evening, 6 January), the US Presidential election is all but resolved, confirming Joe Biden as the next President of the (Dis-)United State of America. Trump’s turbulent political career has lasted just four years – one of the few single-term US presidents ...
The session started off so well. Annalax – suitably chastised – spent a pleasant morning with his new girlfriend (he would say paramour, of course, but for our purposes, girlfriend is easier*). He told her about Waking World Drow, and their worship of Her Ladyship. And he started ...
In a recent column I wrote for local newspapers, I ventured to suggest that Donald Trump – in addition to being a liar and a cheat, and sexist and racist – was a fascist in the making and would probably try, if he were to lose the election, to defy ...
When I was preparing for my School C English exam I knew I needed some quotes to splash through my essays. But remembering lines was never my strong point, so I tended to look for the low-hanging fruit. We’d studied Shakespeare’s King Lear that year and perhaps the lowest hanging ...
When I went to bed last night, I was expecting today to be eventful. A lot of pouting in Congress as last-ditch Trumpers staged bad-faith "objections" to a democratic election, maybe some rioting on the streets of Washington DC from angry Trump supporters. But I wasn't expecting anything like an ...
Melted ice of the past answers question today? Kate Ashley and a large crew of coauthors wind back the clock to look at Antarctic sea ice behavior in times gone by, in Mid-Holocene Antarctic sea-ice increase driven by marine ice sheet retreat. For armchair scientists following the Antarctic sea ice situation, something jumps out in ...
Christina SzalinskiWhen Martha Field became pregnant in 2005, a singular fear weighed on her mind. Not long before, as a Cornell University graduate student researching how genes and nutrients interact to cause disease, she had seen images of unborn mouse pups smaller than her pinkie nail, some with ...
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, the Democratic candidates for President and Vice President respectively for the US 2020 Election, may have dispensed with the erstwhile nemesis, Trump the candidate – but there are numerous critical openings through which much, much worse many out there may yet see fit to ...
I don’t know Taupō well. Even though I stop off there from time to time, I’m always on the way to somewhere else. Usually Taupō means making a hot water puddle in the gritty sand followed by a swim in the lake, noticing with bemusement and resignation the traffic, the ...
Frances Williams, King’s College LondonFor most people, infection with SARS-CoV-2 – the virus that causes COVID-19 – leads to mild, short-term symptoms, acute respiratory illness, or possibly no symptoms at all. But some people have long-lasting symptoms after their infection – this has been dubbed “long COVID”. Scientists are ...
Last night, a British court ruled that Julian Assange cannot be extradited to the US. Unfortunately, its not because all he is "guilty" of is journalism, or because the offence the US wants to charge him with - espionage - is of an inherently political nature; instead the judge accepted ...
Is the Gender Identity Movement a movement for human liberation, or is it a regressive movement which undermines women’s liberation and promotes sexist stereotypes? Should biological males be allowed to play in women’s sport, use women-only spaces (public toilets, changing rooms, other facilities), be able to have access to everything ...
Ian Whittaker, Nottingham Trent University and Gareth Dorrian, University of BirminghamSpace exploration achieved several notable firsts in 2020 despite the COVID-19 pandemic, including commercial human spaceflight and returning samples of an asteroid to Earth. The coming year is shaping up to be just as interesting. Here are some of ...
Michael Head, University of SouthamptonThe UK has become the first country to authorise the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine for public use, with roll-out to start in the first week of 2021. This vaccine is the second to be authorised in the UK – following the Pfizer vaccine. The British government ...
So, Boris Johnson has been footering about in hospitals again. We should be grateful, perhaps, that on this occasion the Clown-in-Chief is only (probably) getting in the way and causing distractions, rather than taking up a bed, vital equipment and resources and adding more strain and danger to exhausted staff.Look at ...
Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... SkS in the News... Coming Soon on SkS... Poster of the Week... SkS Week in Review... Story of the Week... Many Scientists Now Say Global Warming Could Stop Relatively Quickly After Emissions Go to ZeroThat’s one of several recent ...
The situation in the UK is looking catastrophic.Cases: over *70,000* people who were tested in England on 29th December tested positive. This is *not* because there were more tests on that day. It *is* 4 days after Christmas though, around when people who caught Covid on Christmas Day might start ...
by Don Franks For five days over New Year weekend, sixteen prisoners in the archaic pre WW1 block of Waikeria Prison defied authorities by setting fires and occupying the building’s roof. They eventually agreed to surrender after intervention from Maori party co-leader Rawiri Waititi. A message from the protesting men had stated: ...
Lost Opportunity: The powerful political metaphor of the Maori Party leading the despised and marginalised from danger to safety, is one Labour could have pre-empted by taking the uprising at Waikeria Prison much more seriously. AS WORD OF Rawiri Waititi’s successful intervention in the Waikeria Prison stand-off spreads, the Maori ...
As we welcome in the new year, our focus is on continuing to keep New Zealanders safe and moving forward with our economic recovery. There’s a lot to get on with, but before we say a final goodbye to 2020, here’s a quick look back at some of the milestones ...
Bay Conservation Cadets launched with first intake Supported with $3.5 million grant Part of $1.245b Jobs for Nature programme to accelerate recover from Covid Cadets will learn skills to protect and enhance environment Environment Minister David Parker today welcomed the first intake of cadets at the launch of the Bay ...
The Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and the Prime Minister of the Cook Islands Mark Brown have announced passengers from the Cook Islands can resume quarantine-free travel into New Zealand from 21 January, enabling access to essential services such as health. “Following confirmation of the Cook Islands’ COVID ...
Jobs for Nature funding is being made available to conservation groups and landowners to employ staff and contractors in a move aimed at boosting local biodiversity-focused projects, Conservation Minister Kiritapu Allan has announced. It is estimated some 400-plus jobs will be created with employment opportunities in ecology, restoration, trapping, ...
The Government has approved an exception class for 1000 international tertiary students, degree level and above, who began their study in New Zealand but were caught offshore when border restrictions began. The exception will allow students to return to New Zealand in stages from April 2021. “Our top priority continues ...
Today’s deal between Meridian and Rio Tinto for the Tiwai smelter to remain open another four years provides time for a managed transition for Southland. “The deal provides welcome certainty to the Southland community by protecting jobs and incomes as the region plans for the future. The Government is committed ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has appointed Anna Curzon to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). The leader of each APEC economy appoints three private sector representatives to ABAC. ABAC provides advice to leaders annually on business priorities. “ABAC helps ensure that APEC’s work programme is informed by business community perspectives ...
The Government’s prudent fiscal management and strong policy programme in the face of the COVID-19 global pandemic have been acknowledged by the credit rating agency Fitch. Fitch has today affirmed New Zealand’s local currency rating at AA+ with a stable outlook and foreign currency rating at AA with a positive ...
The Government is putting in place a suite of additional actions to protect New Zealand from COVID-19, including new emerging variants, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “Given the high rates of infection in many countries and evidence of the global spread of more transmissible variants, it’s clear that ...
$36 million of Government funding alongside councils and others for 19 projects Investment will clean up and protect waterways and create local jobs Boots on the ground expected in Q2 of 2021 Funding part of the Jobs for Nature policy package A package of 19 projects will help clean up ...
The commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the Battle of Ruapekapeka represents an opportunity for all New Zealanders to reflect on the role these conflicts have had in creating our modern nation, says Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Kiri Allan. “The Battle at Te Ruapekapeka Pā, which took ...
Babies born with tongue-tie will be assessed and treated consistently under new guidelines released by the Ministry of Health, Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Around 5% to 10% of babies are born with a tongue-tie, or ankyloglossia, in New Zealand each year. At least half can ...
The prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison is over, with all remaining prisoners now safely and securely detained, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis says. The majority of those involved in the event are members of the Mongols and Comancheros. Five of the men are deportees from Australia, with three subject to ...
Travellers from the United Kingdom or the United States bound for New Zealand will be required to get a negative test result for COVID-19 before departing, and work is underway to extend the requirement to other long haul flights to New Zealand, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today. “The new PCR test requirement, foreshadowed last ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has added her warm congratulations to the New Zealanders recognised for their contributions to their communities and the country in the New Year 2021 Honours List. “The past year has been one that few of us could have imagined. In spite of all the things that ...
Attorney-General and Minister for the Environment David Parker has congratulated two retired judges who have had their contributions to the country and their communities recognised in the New Year 2021 Honours list. The Hon Tony Randerson QC has been appointed a Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit for ...
Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the New Year’s Honours List 2021 highlights again the outstanding contribution made by Pacific people across Aotearoa. “We are acknowledging the work of 13 Pacific leaders in the New Year’s Honours, representing a number of sectors including health, education, community, sports, the ...
The Government’s investment in digital literacy training for seniors has led to more than 250 people participating so far, helping them stay connected. “COVID-19 has meant older New Zealanders are showing more interest in learning how to use technology like Zoom and Skype so they can to keep in touch ...
Dairy prices increased by 3.9% across the board at the latest Fonterra global auction. The lift followed rises of 1.3% and 4.3% in the December auctions which took dairy prices to their highest level in 11 months, defying those analysts who believed Covid-19 had disrupted dairy markets. In the latest ...
America's Cup team American Magic has spoken publicly after their boat Patriot capsized when on its way to their first win of the Challenger Selection Series yesterday. Patriot dramatically capsized yesterday, becoming temporarily airborne before crashing back into the water and tipping. The boat, helmed by New Zealander Dean Barker, could not be ...
It’s a seemingly age old question: why do Auckland’s beaches become unswimmable after every single downpour? Stewart Sowman-Lund investigates.Ah, the beach. A staple of the New Zealand summer. Unless, of course, you’re based in Auckland and it’s raining. The start of 2021 has been a lot like every other New ...
We have opened a book, among members of the Point of Order team, on how long it will be before the PM offers to sort out the land dispute at Wellington’s Shelly Bay and (to win the double) how much the settlement will cost taxpayers. Just a few weeks ago ...
Breakfast TV news is back for 2021, and Tara Ward got up early to watch. “Thank god it’s almost Christmas,” John Campbell said during the opening minutes of Breakfast’s premiere episode of the year. “2021’s been rough so far. I’m buggered”. We’re all buggered, to be fair, but I’m worried that ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Pearson, Professor of Journalism and Social Media, Griffith Centre for Social and Cultural Research, Griffith University, Griffith University The blame for the recent assault on the US Capitol and President Donald Trump’s broader dismantling of democratic institutions and norms can be ...
Despite a popular and unifying leader of the governing party, divisions both in policy and culture will test the progressive movement, writes Peter McKenzie.‘I think we’re confused.” Marlon Drake is an organiser for the Living Wage Movement. His job takes him all over Wellington, trying to convince businesses to increase ...
Covid-19 Recovery Minister Chris Hipkins says vaccinations should be available to the public by the middle of the year, but other countries are prioritised. ...
It’s as true now as it ever has been: nowhere else offers an education experience like that of Dunedin. But rather than resting on their laurels, the University of Otago and Otago Polytechnic have plans to make the city an even more inspiring place for students.From high in the summit ...
Haggis, neeps and tatties and whisky may not be a traditional spread for a summer gathering in NZ, but trust Auckland city councillor and Kiwi-Scot Cathy Casey on this one. Gie it laldy! Rule one: Hold it on (or near) January 25Robert Burns was born on January 25, 1759. Since the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Tuffley, Senior Lecturer in Applied Ethics & CyberSecurity, Griffith University It could be argued artificial intelligence (AI) is already the indispensable tool of the 21st century. From helping doctors diagnose and treat patients to rapidly advancing new drug discoveries, it’s our ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Kenny, Professor, Australian Studies Institute, Australian National University Through recent natural disasters, global upheavals and a pandemic, Australia’s political centre has largely held. Australians may have disagreed at times, but they have also kept faith with governmental norms, eschewing the false ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Holly Seale, Associate professor, UNSW Health workers are at higher risk of COVID infection and illness. They can also act as extremely efficient transmitters of viruses to others in medical and aged care facilities. That’s why health workers have been prioritised to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jim Orchard, Adjunct Lecturer, Monash University Last week, somewhat overshadowed by the events in Washington, the Democrats took control of the US Senate. The Democrats now hold a small majority in both the House and the Senate until 2022, giving President-elect Joe ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mittul Vahanvati, Lecturer, School of Global, Urban and Social Studies, RMIT University Heatwaves, floods, bushfires: disaster season is upon us again. We can’t prevent hazards or climate change-related extreme weather events but we can prepare for them — not just as individuals ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mandie Shean, Lecturer, School of Education, Edith Cowan University Starting school is an important event for children and a positive experience can set the tone for the rest of their school experience. Some children are excited to attend school for the first ...
Some families in emergency housing are reporting their children are becoming emotionally distressed because of their living conditions. Demand for emergency accommodation has escalated this past year with the number of emergency housing grants increasing by half. Data showed nearly 10,000 people were given an Emergency Housing Special Needs Grant between ...
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It sounds like Espiner has brought with him the Galleries obsession with coalition deals…Boring bloody sheep.
Why has it taken this long for Espiner to interview DC?
DC very sharp and spot on the mark on RNZ this morning.
Yes but I don’t feel RNZ plays that big a part, he needs to get this into granny and tv appearances.
Short snappy slogans at the start and end of each answer book ending the solid logic and message within.
No, Espiner has not. Espiner is reacting to the legitimate story of a strong pre-election coalition with the Greens. Cunliffe was quite unconvincing this morning.
I am surprised at the cack-handed handling of this by both Greens and Labour. Long before it came to the political surface, this proposal should have been shuttled by political messengers to test its feasibility. This is like proposing than Telecom and Vodafone, or Team New Zealand and Oracle, will merge. You would do it in incredible secrecy, and if it didn’t work mumble something to camera with a face-saving handshake.
Instead, the “Labour leadership team” (whoever they are because they ain’t caucus) have determined to slap the Greens down nice and public. So every other party gets to spray the paint about.
Instead of starting the election season around Budget, like you should so we can get to actual policy points of difference, we have a weeks worth of bullshit. Caused IMHO by amateur political management from both sides. Dorks.
Why do you assume it was Labour who leaked it? Got any proof for that? Labour (and specifically David Cunliffe) have been unequivocal about leaving coalition negotiations until after the election. There’s just as much chance that the Greens leaked it as part of a play.
Ad’s main point is the political testing which should have been done beforehand, far in advance of any thing getting to this stage. At this point, ‘who leaked it’ is an irrelevancy.
I agree, CV. The Greens should have tested this proposal ages ago. Bloody amateurs.
”70% of left leaning voters want a Labour/Green coalition”, i would suggest that is test enough,
Burning the candle at both ends for too long eventually will burn Labour’s fingers, my view as a Green Party member is that it looks increasingly like the best strategy for the Green Party is to sit on the cross benches offering Labour nothing unless they pay for every piece of Labour Legislation the Green Party helps pass into Law with the passing of a like piece of Green Party Legislation…
CV, Then why tar Labour with the same brush? It’s a bit of an ask to expect Labour to politically test a Green party play before the Greens actually execute it…
From the hooting and hollering around the traps about how the Greens are awesome and Labour are a bunch of dicks, I expect whatever they were planning had the desired outcome and it wasn’t a serious approach anyway – more of a slightly cynical piece of win/win political positioning by the Greens because there is no way Labour would go for it, and the Greens aren’t stupid.
According to Brent Edwards on RNZ this morning there has been political testing (presumably internal polling) that has shown centrist voters in the provinces are falling for NAct’s Labour/Greens coalition = extreme left in large numbers. These are people who voted Labour from 99 to 05 and Labour wants them back.
I think there is over-reaction to Cunliffe’s recent statement.There will be a Labour/Green coalition govt. and both parties know it. But Labour doesn’t want to scare the gullible small town horses which makes sense. They could be the difference between winning and losing. To rely solely on getting out the non vote is nowhere near enough to beat the Nats and their media lackeys. The Greens on the other hand are indulging in a little politicking to win over more of the so-called hard left vote and that’s an equally ‘sensible’ strategy to follow.
Good luck to them. I hope both parties succeed and then we’re all winners.
“Its these ignorant, gullible idiots who live in small town NZ who should take the blame.”
Are you being serious, or is it just a bit early in your day to notice how insulting that comment is?
My my, that was a quick edit Anne
Bit quick off the mark freedom. Edited out that comment. I wasn’t talking about ALL small town residents – just those who have a propensity to fall for blatantly obvious Tory propaganda – and plenty did in 08 and 11.
Edit:
It was already edited – having time consuming probs. Think its the mouse and a new one too.
Just so we all know, how long should people wait before replying to your comments?
Gotta friend popping in to sort out the bloody mouse (or whatever is wrong) over the weekend so it will be normal transmission by Monday. In the meantime gimme 5 mins. at least. 😀
maybe if you did the typing instead of the mouse then such silly word-strings would not appear 😉 then again, left as is, we might get some handy insights into why cheese is so favoured ?
It’s a myth, propagated by Big Dairy through their New-World-Order pals Big Animation.
isn’t the edit countdown 8 minutes?
+100 Anne ….agreed ” over-reaction to Cunliffe’s recent statement”…and bugger the polls…both Greens and Labour need to dis the polls and emphasise how well they work together despite not having a formal agreement before the Election
interesting article by Miriam Pierard from the Daily Blog on this issue and the absolute need for a united Left front!
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/04/11/guest-blog-miriam-pierard-cunliffe-coalition-deal-no-deal/
Good summing up by Brent Edwards:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/241340/power-play,-with-brent-edwards
Yes, particularly this bit:
I particularly like the comment I have put in bold.
No mention in this analysis, however, of those who are right put off voting due to the belief that ‘the two main parties are too similar’. I posit that the way to deal with this group, also, is by supplying information that counters the misperceptions.
Labour are in a difficult position – having to appeal to a wide range of people. It would seem that clear, simple messages that are informative and dispel misperceptions repeated ad infinitum are what Labour need to be focussing on.
blue leopard
Well Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington Christchurch would have to be regarded as major urban areas where there is business growth. Tauranga might be regarded as part of the north powerhouse of business. It could be thought of as the cities that have the big jets and cheap air fares while the rest have to pay big to get their share of flights if at all.
I think then most of the rest of NZ is provincial as applied to NZ political thinking. Another way to define the areas being talked about as possibly fearing Labour-Greens would be those with big farming involvement. And particularly big dairying interests as irrigation and dairying go together more and more. They would be worried that Greens might try to prevent that and want money spent on cleaning up rivers and reducing nitrogen and even stop palm kernel waste importation.
How would they vote in Gisborne? Would they vote for National after having their rail withdrawn. Would Picton be grateful that the Seddon earthquakes have resulted in the dropping of Clifford Bay? I suppose Ashburton and surrounds will be National – with the propping up of their business ventures from government guarantees. In Nelson with a lot of retirees I can’t see Nick Smith being ousted if Labour is upping the pension age. Northland have trepidation about being amalgamated over a big area, though some South Island bodies have long boundaries.
@ Anne,
Your comment is the most informative in explaining where Labour was coming from when rejecting Greens coalition proposal, thank you.
Brent’s information leads me to wonder, however, what ‘provincial’ means?
This Wikipedia link on NZ demographics citing the 2013 census data says this:
I realise that ‘urban’ doesn’t necessarily translate into ‘not provincial’ and am left wondering what ‘provincial’ actually means in relation to NZ towns and what sort of numbers we are dealing with? Is Hamilton still considered ‘provincial’? If not, then perhaps that last bit of data (‘53% live in the four largest cities’) is an indication of ‘non provincial’ areas – but then what about Dunedin? Tauranga? Perhaps even Whangarei and Nelson? Are they ‘provincial’?
I’m just a tad suspicious that this decision is based on a type of hearsay and not an accurate assessment of the pros and cons* of Labour making clear their relations with Greens. This is only a suspicion and you make a fair point as to the crux of why Labour might have refused to make a formal arrangement with Labour
*The other section of NZers that have to be addressed re the election is those that don’t vote because they think National and Labour are much of a muchness perhaps this group is smaller than those living in ‘provincial NZ’ and this is what I am trying to work out. It would appear that these two groups ‘provincial dwellers being sucked in by National party propaganda’ and the ‘Labour and National are much of a muchness’ group are mutually exclusive – to address one of these groups, switches the other group off.
Maybe we need to think about the actual pros for Labour of a potential campaign coalition? No one really seems to have outlined why this is such an awesome idea for them.
It looks like there is zilch in it for Labour beyond that which they can already achieve themselves, and from the reports of the what the proposal entailed it seems like it would have been all give to the Greens.
One pro would be the potential for getting an absolute majority as a unified team, thus robbing other potential coalition partners of the claim that they must support National as the party with the highest overall vote. I do not say there are no cons, only that this is one pro.
Now there is a good point that I completely missed.
As I have said elsewhere, Labour could have countered the offer of Greens by stipulating what areas they were prepared to share on and what areas they weren’t. For an example, and an example only; as I understand it finance is one of the biggest fears people have about the Greens – Labour could have stated yes we agree but we are not sharing finance (- or another example – mining) in this way it would have worked well for Labour because they would send a clear message out to the voters of their boundaries between them and the Greens. To do this would have served to dispel fears in those that have them on what type of influence the Greens would have on the next government under Labour.
Had they done this and Greens rejected it, there would be a different story going on right now.
Additionally, an overall advantage for Labour in that coalition is one of transparency toward the public. The fact of the matter is Labour are going to work with Greens in one way or another unless something changes severely – to make some type of formal arrangement with the Greens would be a transparent move. They are going to be working with the Greens in some way, shape or form and making a coalition outlines that if people wish for a Greener government they need to vote Greens, if they wish for a less Green and more Labour government they vote Labour.
This business re who you vote for is going to shape the new government is the case anyway – yet a formal agreement would have highlighted this and Labour would not necessarily have lost votes to Greens under these conditions and had they included some stipulations – they would have addressed the ‘centrist green fear’.
Apparently but that could be wrong.
Oh dear lol
In other words – when there is an attempt from Labour to deal with ‘those from the provinces”, does this mean Labour are attempting to appeal to those:
a. “having or showing the manners, viewpoints, etc., considered characteristic of unsophisticated inhabitants of a province; rustic; narrow or illiberal; parochial: a provincial point of view. ” (One of the definitions in Draco’s first link)
or
b. “from the provinces: the parts of a country outside of the capital or the largest cities.” (Draco’s second link)
Bring me your bumpkins, chawbacons, churls, clodhoppers, cornballs, hayseeds, hicks and rubes and you will see the ‘centrist voter’ and they shall and have always voted Bridges, Clarkson, Peters, Allen, Walsh, Doidge*
regards from the provinces.
*or similar, contents may vary.
(1935 excluded)
” According to Brent Edwards on RNZ this morning there has been political testing (presumably internal polling) that has shown centrist voters in the provinces are falling for NAct’s Labour/Greens coalition = extreme left in large numbers. These are people who voted Labour from 99 to 05 and Labour wants them back.”
I think this is spot on, many people I know who have voted National in the last 2 elections are scared shitless of the Greens, the fact is most people don’t follow politics closely and their views of the greens are wildly inaccurate, but, it still affects Labour negatively…so what Labour is doing here may not be popular amongst those of us who could swing between Labour or the Greens, but I reckon it will have the desired affect of swinging voters from National to Labour…which scores double points.
So the correct response to these people who are scared of the greens “so you’d rather have JK borrowing, putting it in his mate’s pocket’s and then get you to pay it back “
Looking ahead, it would be good for regular weekly or fortnightly meetings to be held at least at two levels beginning now and right through in the run-up to September: meetings among leaders of Mana-Greens-Labour, and among the Chiefs of Staff.
Strategic cooperation versus competition, policy differentiation or synergies, and the timing and pitch of policy announcements, as well as many tactical matters, can be raised and coordinated at such meetings.
Winston will be Winston, he will take care of himself, and he will attempt to soar as high as he can regardless of how strong or weak the right winds or left winds blow. So, at the same time, Labour and Greens should take charge and own the messaging/positioning possibilities and bargaining power that a so-called kingmaker can leverage upon, on this side of the election.
+100
Especially over get the vote out strategies.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2592234
for the Cunliffe interview
What can be taken from that:
Too many words … it would be unsurprising if many listeners may have tuned out part way through the clip, as well as (rightly or wrongly) getting the impression Labour is not that well grounded.
A bit complex and sounded like different subtle signals were being sent through various frequences; if that is the modern day Delphic Oracle, then that should earn a well-deserved A+.
So Labour wants to retain the phrase used in the past, i.e. “Labour-led”, but why is there attachment to that phrase or concept? A LabourGreens-centred Government or another turn of phrase, signalling a new, alternative government (and not one relegating the Greens to the arrangement involving Jeanette Fitzsimmons a few years back*) would mark a change from the 1999-2008 Labour-led business as usual.
–> There’s room for Cunliffe and the Labour team to do better.
*Times have changed and the Greens’ party vote is significantly higher now – what was the percentage of the Greens then (also in comparison with NZF) as compared to the Greens support close to the mid-teens now (while NZF remains pretty much where it has been and has not increased substantially like the Greens)?
hmm, there were three numbered points in that paragraph but the numbering has not come through.
I had the same problem a while back re numbering and although I haven’t tried it out since, lprent told me this:
” When creating a list in a word processor and wanting to have extra space between items, it pays to use “shift-enter” rather than just “enter”. It distinguishes line feed from a paragraph end. ”
Link to that comment
Maybe they want to keep Labour-led because he is the leader of the Labour party and his job is to maximise the Labour Party vote and it isn’t his job to campaign on behalf of the Green Party…
This surprised me. David Parker claimed in Parliament yesterday there was “rising inequality under National” while Minister of Finance Bill English claimed that inequality was “flat or slightly dropping”.
Parker quoted a Herald opinion poll, but English referred to the 2013 Household Incomes Report (revision, 27 February 2014, Ministry of Social Development) that uses statistics and the Gini measure (the OECD and others use the Gini as the main indicator for international comparisons).
1996 – 32.5
2007 – 32.5
2012 – 32.4
(there’s a blip in 2011, and a new report is due in June).
http://www.politicheck.org.nz/factchecks/2014/4/10/is-inequality-increasing
Yet, there’s this from Stats NZ, showing Parker is correct. The line is fairly flat, and the biggest rise in inequality was from the late 80s to the 1990s. But it did indeed start to come down under Labour, then rose again under National.
So there’s no way to comment on the fact check article on the politicheck site?
What you’re referring to is one of a series of charts using “BHC income inequality in New Zealand: percentile ratios, 1982 to 2012, total population”.
It immediately precedes the Gini chart in 2013 Household Incomes Report (revision, 27 February 2014, Ministry of Social Development .DOC):
https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/monitoring/household-income-report/revised-tables-and-graphs.doc
Gini includes more factors and is used internationally as an inequality measure.
English seems to have been referring to the Gini chart, that’s what he describes.
Parker didn’t support his claim with any data, he chose to use an opinion poll instead.
lol
So one indicator out of several is flat, therefore Parker is wrong, according to PG.
For pete’s next trick, he’ll be Carter’s stand-in as speaker…
His offer of publishing all of his posts here as articles for The Civilian was turned down. What makes you think he can manage standing in for Carter?
That doesn’t make sense. Has someone made an “offer of publishing all of his posts here as articles for The Civilian”?
Odd suggestion about Speaker, as far as I know the Speaker has to be an MP so that rules out everyone who is not an MP.
Oh Pete, you’re so one-dimenional.
lol
Perhaps we should add a column specifically for fact checking the factchecker site?
PG has spent the last few years criticising this site for what he perceives to be its failings. It isn’t something that we have particularly bothered doing in his
obsessivesystematic way.I’m not adverse to spending some effort to facilitate an environment of open criticism. 😈
I’ve also praised this site’s strengths lprent.
Politicheck is not being designed as a blog or forum for discussion, it’s a controlled dynamic library of issues. It’s aimed at complementing social media forums.
So a fact checking column here would be welcome, it would be great for input both ways. The more facts that are added to the discussions the better, it’s not always easy to find them so crowd sourcing facts is excellent way to do it.
If we think we have enough to post an issue on we’ll put it up as an interim finding and then look for more input from the MPs and from the public.
We will also have issues with insufficient facts, so if the facts can crowd sourced we’ll be able to build a case.
Scrutiny of what Politicheck does (fact checking the fact checker) is also welcome. We won’t always find all the facts and we won’t always get things right, so any additions or corrections are welcome. If we’re found to be wrong or lacking in facts we’ll put it right.
There’s some discussion of the inequality measures re GINI coefficient here.
It is a response to this NZ Herald article about the latest Census, in which Bernard Hickey claims that the income gap in NZ is widening.
No, articles are closed for comments.
David Parker and David Cunliffe have been advised and have been invited to comment.
I’ve posted here (and elsewhere) to get feedback and discussion.
Anyone can submit to Politicheck by email or here: http://www.politicheck.org.nz/factchecks/2014/4/9/submission-of-issues
All posts will be linked on Facebook where comments can be made:
Not all of us use Facebook.
Then there’s this paper of 2012 by the CTU which disputes some aspects of the GINI coefficient claiming that:
I’ll be interested to see if/what parker has to say about it. I’m not a great Parker fan. But, from what I’ve read about him, I doubt he would have made a statement based on just an opinion poll, without some significant stats to support his claim.
PG, for a fact checker, sticking toi the facts, you are headlining your fact checking with spin.
On Facebook you promote the politicheck article thus:
The original politicheck article starts off OK as a coverage of the issue, kind of – accept you foreground it with reference to an opinion poll. The second sentence is fair enough:
The article later goes on to saying this:
Now this is starting to spin. Labour are claiming “all the data” shows it – the opinion poll is used to highlight that most Kiwis perceive something similar to “all the data”.
The article then goews on to focus on the GINI coeficient.
But Patker and Labour were ststing that there is evidence of a grwoing inequality gap well before above cited opinion poll was published.
For instance, in Jan 2014:
And on 6 March 2014:
<
blockquote>Company profits are increasing much faster than the wage rates of working Kiwis, showing the gap between the haves and have-nots is increasing, said Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker.
“The vast majority of Kiwi families are just treading water. Wage rates have increased in the past year by just 1.6 per cent[1] which is exactly the same as the inflation rate. >blockquote>
For me, the most glaring thing shown by the stats is that income inequality grew by a big amount in the late 80s and 90s, and has not come down significantly since then. There is also the issue of the signifcance of wealth inequality (eg ownership of assets, etc), that are as important as income inequality.
I’d like to see some stats on thta.
But Politicheck is not doing itself any favours by spinning the results of the fact check by claiming Labour’s evidence of growingin inequality is an opinion poll – that is pure spin.
Can’t say that I’m surprised to find that the fact check site led by Pete George is just another spin machine to support National.
Well, I haven’t looked at what else they’ve written on. But, the inequality one is hardly showing them to be at the forefront of “fact checking”
I’ve found several sites and news articles that have stated the same – GINI coeifficient rose vastly in the 90s, and has pretty much flat lined since. Flip published an artilce on TS about the GINI and the argument for UBI – he included the GINI NZ flatline since the end of the 20th century.
And some have done a bit more in depth analysis, including some of the pros and cons of using the GINI coefficient. Also, some went further and stated the same stats still show a high or increased level of Kiwis living in “hardship”. There’s also the issue of the fact that inequalities have been lessened by redistributive policies like WFF. And rather than looking at just a mean/media/average of all incomes, to look more closely at those at the top and bottom levels of the income hierarchy – then there’s the issue of asset consolidation, and the issue of the impact of long term being at the bottom end…. and wealth vs income inequality.
Labour and Parker and the CTU have been on about the rise in inequality for some time, using various measures and, the CTU provides some in depth analysis.
Inequality has become an election issue. The politcheck article works to undermine claims of inequality, and especially to discredit Parker/Labour’s use of stats.
It remains to be seen whether politicheck will cherry pick the data they focus on to descredit some parties and not others.
By all means argue the case for growing inequality, but I think using an opinion poll against statistics in Parliament is not wise.
We were much more harsh on Simon Bridges yesterday: Simon Bridges guilty of blatant bull
There were some complaints and suggestions that might have been too strong.
The check was not on the history of inequality, it was on the exchange in Question 2 in Parliament yesterday with some background on the poll.
Parker said:
An odd double question. English responded:
That description matches the MSD Gini.
That proposes that English is out of touch if he thinks the gap has not increased, using a poll as evidence.
Parker tries to push the poll point:
Then he said:
That’s a clear suggestion of “rising inequality under National” following his use of the poll several times to suggest that inequality was rising and that English was out of touch if he didn’t agree that it was rising.
Parker used an opinion poll to try and argue against English, Gini and the MSD statistics.
Anything that shows up the Left as being iffy will be used as proof as bias against the left and completely disregarded, anything that shows up the Right as being iffy will be praised and lauded
Hope that helps you in your posting here
Must admit using a Herald Digi poll against MSD stats is pretty pathetic
Surely the fact being checked is simple whether or not the data supports English’s assertion that inequality is “flat or slightly declining”. To do so you should look at a range of measures, including the Gini coefficient, but not EXCLUSIVELY the Gini coefficient. From the above discussion (Karol’s comments), it appears that some measures do support Parker’s point.
The part about Parker citing an opinion poll is largely irrelevant. You are nitpicking about a small aspect of the inequality argument (a particular exchange during question time) rather than looking at the issue as a whole. If some other data support Parker’s point, than these data are obviously a lot more relevant to the “fact” in question, rather than what Parker might have said during that exchange in question time.
Nope. The poll was used to point out that English is out of touch. Parker didn’t argue about gini or MSD stats (most of the latter agree with parker, but what the hey).
Basically, You’re arguing that because Gini is fairly flat, inequality is not increasing under national. What about after-tax Gini? Or other, more precise, measures of income distribution? International measures are chosen because they are internationally-comparable, not necessarily because they are the best national or sub-national measure.
I’m not arguing about whether Gini is the best measure of inequality or whether inequality is increasing, flat or decreasing – I expect statistics can be found that apply to all possibilities. I said that Gini is an accepted international comparison.
English looks to have based his claim on the MSD Gini, which would base his argument on official published statistics.
Parker seems to be trying to argue against English/MSD/Gini and promotes public opinion as more pertinent and more in touch.
I’d be worried if our Minister of Finance based his position on a single opinion poll rather than on official statistics complied over decades – that would be seriously out of touch with reality.
lol
So you’re checking the facts without actually checking the facts?
You seem to be missing the point about why Parker used the poll.
Parker’s position seems to have been that inequality is rising, and most people know it.
If most people can see it, but English can’t, then English is out of touch with most NZers.
The only way for English to counter this is to argue that inequality is flat or decreasing, i.e. that he knows something that most NZers do not.
BTW, why is “international comparison” needed when we’re only looking at conditions within NZ? That’s like arguing that PISA scores are the only valid evaluation of education in NZ.
You seem to be missing the point, and reinforce the folly of using an opinion poll to make an argument.
English indicated he accepts that people can have the opinion that inequality has increased but he says the accepted measure says otherwise.
The last Labour Government’s system of measurement (Parker was in that Government) and the National Government’s system of measurement says that inequality has flat lined since 1998.
Taking the side of the majority in one poll, whose opinions are contradicted by the official system of measurement over many years, seems out of touch for an MP doesn’t it?
Can someone ask David Parker if he intends running the country’s finances by opinion poll?
This is being disingenuous to an extreme. You are taking a single example of an argument by Parker and extrapolating it to mean that Parker ALWAYS and ONLY uses such arguments to guide his reasoning. He NEVER said that the opinion poll was the ideal basis for running the country’s finance. He simply used the opinion poll as EXAMPLE of where English was wrong. It might not have been an ideal argument but it is only an EXAMPLE, and nothing more.
See also my comment below.
It’s not a folly if the argument is that English is out of touch.
One measure says inequality has flatlined.
Several other measures of inequality have not, e.g. the <50/60% median, BHC/AHC.
If there were only one perfect measure of inequality, you might have a point. It’s not, you don’t, and most New Zealanders know it (as demonstrated by parker’s poll).
Can someone ask politicheck if they’ll keep a tory propagandist as editor?
Yes but it wa a ridiculous and invalid example and indicative of an approach to reasoning that should be scrutinised by the public.
There is no problem with inequality in New Zealand that is not being aggressively addressed by the current government. What do you want? Higher taxes and more welfare? Because that works brilliantly.
We need efficient markets, better education and better parenting.
What do you want to “fix” inequality? There will always be inequality. It is a good thing. If the plan from the left is higher taxes, a baby bonus, and a living wage (sic) we will simply go down the Argentinian road. Some Government regulator will decide what wages should be instead of the market!!
If we want a prosperous future there really is no alternative to the current policy settings. My suggestion would be to deepen them much further.
Mcfluck – I suggest for your next holiday you take a world tout encompassing Argentina, the USA, the UK, Greece, Singapore, Shanghai, and Sweden. It will be time well spent. You seriously have no clue about economics, life, poverty, or anything except poisonous envy.
SSpylands, if inequality is “being aggressively addressed by the current government”, why is English’s own most favourable estimate of it that it’s static?
They’ve had almost 6 years to address it.
yes, yes it does. Alongside more education, healthcare, and other social services.
As for the TINA bullshit, that’s just more religious dogma from our resident retard.
I too would be worried. But Parker has not done so. He simply used the opinion poll during a question in parliament. Perhaps he didn’t have the facts at hand to counter English’s statement (e.g. those pointed out earlier in this thread). Perhaps he did have the facts but chose a different approach and decided to use the opinion poll instead, rightly or wrongly. But he has not said that his position is ENTIRELY based on a single poll, he simply cited the poll as one piece of evidence in support of his position.
You seem to be “fact checking” the quality of English’s and Parker’s debating skills, rather than “fact checking” the facts themselves. Here is a simple question for you:
Is the Herald digipoll (cited by Parker) the only piece of evidence that supports the assertion that inequality in NZ is growing?
This is an extremely troubling assertion to be coming from a “fact checker”. You seem to be saying that statistics can be found to support any position. But instead of reviewing a large number of statistics to determine their relative pros and cons and citing a number of such statistics to present a balanced view on the topic, you will simply pick one in a semi-arbitrary way and base your whole argument on this single “fact”.
It shouldn’t be troubling if you understand statistics, They’re not facts. You can say different things with different sets of statistics.
If you compare the 1978 Gini with the 2012 Gini it can show that inequality is flat (on those two years down 0.1),
If you compare the 1985 Gini with the 2011 Gini it suggests inequality has risen significantly.
And that’s using one measure, when you measure and index something as complex as income variations across a country’s population there are many factors that can effect different outcomes.
I had no intention of doing an in depth analysis of different ways of measuring inequality. If someone wants to attempt that then go for it. It’s not for me to say if one measure is better or worse than another.
The point on this issue is that I haven’t picked one “in a semi-arbitrary way”, I picked the one the past Labour Government, the OECD and many countries use, the one that uses decades of data, and deduced that was the one Bill English used.
And I pointed out that David Parker picked a one off opinion poll and seemed to be using that to argue against it.
Don’t you think one official measure, any credible statistical measure, would be more sensible for a finance spokesperson to use than a one off opinion poll?
How many times will you attempt to get this lie to stick, Petty George? Parker used the opinion poll as a measure of whether English is in touch with the electorate. If you’re going to tell lies in public this will reflect poorly on your employer, as though the choice to employ you wasn’t enough of a pratfall.
No, it is very troubling and I do understand statistics. They are facts, insofar as you are aware of the limitations imposed by the way they are measured. If you really think statistics are completely subjective, as you seem to be implying, you have no business being a “fact checker” of any kind.
No, it shows that the 1978 Gini is similar to the 2012 Gini. It says nothing about the trend for the years in between.
Yes, it shows that the 1985 Gini is lower than the 2012 Gini. But it says nothing about the trend for the years in between.
Yes, which is why it is important that one understands the way the statistics were measured and their likely flaws and benefits when interpreting them.
Isn’t this the role of a fact checker?
Yes, exactly. Semi-arbitrary. Other people have used it so you used it as well, without evaluating whether or not it is the best measure. Doing the latter would be non-arbitrary.
So when you went looking for “facts”, you decided to pick the piece of evidence that agrees with Bill English’s view?
Yes, I agree that other measures would have been more appropriate than an opinion poll. David Parker’s argument was not a solid one. I did not say otherwise. To be clear, I have no issue with you deciding that an opinion poll is not a reliable source of evidence for this issue. But I do have an issue with you focusing on the opinion poll as the only piece of evidence that supports Parker’s position. It is not the only fact that supports his view. I do not agree that he is basing his position solely on that opinion poll. To suggest he is doing so is extremely disingenuine. And you refuse to even look at any evidence to prove that English might be wrong.
I honestly cannot believe what I am reading from you. Are your colleagues aware of these views? If I was one of your researchers, I would quit if I heard this from you.
I think you’re trying to make much more of this than it warrants.
There was no need to evaluate whether the measure English uses is ‘the best’ or not. That’s a pointless exercise in fact checking, in fact it’s impossible. It involves judgement, balancing many factors and coordination with other countries if it’s to be any use.
If you think it would be a good thing to ‘fact check’ then do it. Let us decide what we want to check.
In my opinion the measure English should use is the one chosen by our Governments to use in conjunction with other countries. For him to base his argument on something that he personally thinks is ‘best’ or you tell him might be better is ludicrous.
Parker only used the poll in his argument in Parliament yesterday, and as that question in Parliament is the issue we covered then of course we should focus on that.
I also emailed Parker and asked:
Do you think an opinion poll is valid evidence?
Do you have anything else to support your claims?
So he has the opportunity to widen it to other factors if he wishes. That’s up to him. Otherwise I have no idea what he was thinking about when he ran his line of questioning yesterday.
“If you compare the 1978 Gini with the 2012 Gini it can show that inequality is flat (on those two years down 0.1),
If you compare the 1985 Gini with the 2011 Gini it suggests inequality has risen significantly.”
That’s not saying different things with different sets of statistics, that’s arbitrarily choosing datapoints and claiming that the difference between them is somehow meaningful.
I’m not sure you’re the right guy for this fact checking stuff.
I didn’t explain that example very well, but it was a comment on a blog, it wasn’t a fact check.
“I didn’t explain that example very well, but it was a comment on a blog, it wasn’t a fact check.”
And yet, you appear to be claiming that misrepresenting the facts by reference to a misleading use of statistics is the same as “say[ing] different things with different sets of statistics.”
If the above is what you believe (and I can only take your word for it), you don’t know the difference between “fact” and “spin.” This must make it very difficult for you perform the role of “fact checker.”
but Pete, you based the entire Politicheck article* on the premise the data Bill English used is accurate.
to quote weizguy
“that’s arbitrarily choosing datapoints and claiming that the difference between them is somehow meaningful.”
Your entire argument is based on ignoring this premise, this reality, this FACT. Politicheck is running out of credibility faster than you can post apologist blather. And then you have the temerity to bitch about having to do it. These are comments you would not have to post here if comments were allowed on your new blog, but then you couldn’t romp around posting replies on everyone else’s blog thus creating the very distraction that I suspect Politicheck was set up to be. Not to mention artifically creating interest in Politicheck by appropriating readerships built up by the hard work of others.
p.s.
is there an explanation coming to explain the difference between a “pending” verdict and an “interim” verdict, because I admit I am a bit confused there.
*Is there some special name are we meant to call them?
I thought engaging might work. If it’s going to end up in pointless nitpicking and irrelevant criticism here then maybe not but it was worth a try. If it’s going to be be overtaken by negativity then I’ll direct my efforts elsewhere.
In politics there are always some who, if they don’t like an outcome, will do anything to discredit. I knew that before deciding to give this a go.
If you want it done differently then do your own.
Why the Gini? Why not the decile dispersal ratio? I mean, if you’re fact checking you don’t want to rely on something just because it’s popular when something else might actually uncover the facts?
Personally I’d like to see a distribution of wealth (not income) trend line for NZ.
As for Parker – Fact Check – it was pretty clear he was making a statement about English being out of touch with the general public, with an opinion poll to illustrate that, not making a statement about inequality based on an opinion poll.
That’s where “facts” are supposed to come in.
What claims were made, and are they true?
Claim:Most people think inequality is getting worse.
True/false: Parker cited a survey that suggests this is true
Claim: English does not think inequality is getting worse.
True/false: True – he cited Gini to suggest that inequality is static or slightly improving.
Claim: English is out of touch from most people because he disagrees with most people about current trends in inequality.
True/false: English disagrees with most people about current trends in inequality.
If inequality is getting worse, then “out of touch” is a reasonable description of having opinions that diverge from fact and common perception.
If inequality is improving, then he’s just smarter than most people.
Is inequality improving?
Most official measures listed here suggest that inequality is getting worse. Before-tax Gini is trending flat.
Conclusion: Bill English is probably out of touch
” pointless nitpicking” ??
I have seen a string of very valid questions about process, research methods and integrity of data. What did you expect in your little engagement fantasy?
As for my own nit picking…Asking for clarity of the site’s vernacular is not pointless when the site is a FACT CHECKING SITE. Don’t you want people to be able to discuss accurately what is posted there?
So sorry you feel that the list of valid questions raised these past two days is not what your cunning plan imagined.
As for the “don’t like an outcome” drivel. I believe, based on comments these past 48 hours, that what people don’t like is the lack of difference between what is happening on Politicheck and what you do everywhere else.
Hope next week goes better and I look forward to your budget for poor people too.
Hi Pete George,
Perhaps you might take a look at the graph in this article?
The graph illustrates that the gap has been widening.
The source is cited as from Treasury (although this might have been before the correction to their numbers were made, therefore the situation might be worse than this chart indicates)
Also, it’s not hard to look back at some of the things Dabvid Cunliffe and Davide Parker have said, to find the kind of statistics they have been referring to re- their statements about increases in inequality.
Parker has made several short press releases in which he talks about both income and asset inequality, as though they are related.
He referred to this in the House on 29th January:
On 30 January:
And the differences between Labour and National’s claims about inequality were addressed in this NZ Herald article of 28 January 2014:
Pete George,
From your quotes it looks very clear to me that Parker was not using the poll to provide evidence of inequality (that comes from many other sources, as I’m sure your research will confirm) but, rather, to provide evidence that Bill English is “out of touch” with what most New Zealanders think.
That is the obvious meaning of Parker’s second question that you cite (and that mentions the poll). It is not a difficult meaning to parse Pete George, so why did you miss it?
It’s OK for our national hero and government subsidy recipient Sir Peter Jackson to own Nazi memorabilia, but Kim Dotcom’s own collection has caused a massive general outrage. Racist much?
Scroll down the page to see the Nazi plane pic:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10756586/Royal-tour-Duke-of-Cambridge-plays-lead-role-in-own-Peter-Jackson-short-film.html
Of course Sir(spit)Peter Jackson wouldn’t have bought these pieces of memorabilia as an investment because He has a fascination with war now would He,
Can we expect Blubber boy over at ‘wail oil’ to start screeching any moment alluding to Jackson’s Nazi sympathies,
The politics of hypocrisy are rampant…
I wasn’t aware Jackson was running an ambiguous political party in the next election.
You give every appearance of being supremely unaware of a hell of a lot of stuff, DotCom was not running a political party when He purchased the investtment either…
National aren’t ambiguous Pop. Just flexible with our money and our laws.
Oh, hey. I can repeat my comment.
“The article also commented that Jackson collects WWI memorabilia. WWI predates the Nazis.
Do you know any history? Because that’s an appalling understanding of world history you have there.”
That is just classic, so Bad12 & Amiirite maybe you can elaborate on the ethics of collecting WW1 Nazi memorabilia, we are all eyes.
Rob, sorry to see you join the coalition of the brainless, If the plane in question is a world war one fighter plane why then does the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre with Peter Jackson as the Chairman choose to display it with a Nazi Swastika on the tail…
There’s no indication that that is Peter Jackson’s plane.
Draco, you are indeed correct, my apologies to Sir(spit)Peter Jackson for any illusion created toward Him for owning Nazi war memorabilia,
Sir Peter(spit)Jackson being a Knight of the British realm and chairman of the Omaka Aviation Heritage Center seemed perfectly happy to have on display a Swastika bearing Nazi era air-plane for both the public and He and she who would be King and Queen of that British realm,
it appears that another member of the Omaka Aviation Heritage center may own the plane that bares the Nazi Swastika on its tail…
British war museums frequently have German equipment on display. It’s important historical context for a museum. I know the RAF museum in Kent has a German plane or two.
As far as I’m aware Kim Dotcom is not a museum.
And nor is the private owner of the swastika emblazoned world war 2 German fighter plane ”a museum”, the fact is that it is displayed at a museum which Jackson is the Chairman of with a gratuitous and unnecessary display of the Nazi emblem flashed across the world by the press contingent following the Woyal spongers…
God, you’re hopeless.
+1
God your a form of bottom feeding swamp amoeba who having run out of argument resorts to insult as the currency of discourse and then whines like a beaten dog when the insults are returned in kind…
Hey, did you know that the swastika is an ancient symbol of good luck and good fortune?
not the way H had it pointing 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika
And the Third Reich had it pointing the normal way.
lol, so in some ways the swastika /sauwastika orientation is a graphical Hindu/Buddhist thing similar to pronouncing “H” as “aitch” or “haitch” depending on whether you’re a Belfast Catholic or Protestant?
I guess that’s my new thing learned today. 🙂
Nazism believes in purrity of the race. DotCom is not married to a blonde ayran. Hitler would be turning in his grave that Dotcom owns his book.
What we must fear now is not “Nazism” or even violence from radical right wing skinhead types (a la Ukraine) unpleasant as that is; it is corporate-surveillance state totalitarianism which is going to shape the next 10 years of global government. And it is something which we can see already morphing into it’s final form – a kind of anonymous corporate run neo-feudalism where 5% of the population get very special privileges and the other 95% are serfs and proles.
To lift the tone a Futurama reference, which coincidentally, P Jackson s.o.b also doesn’t own 🙂
http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Satan
Project Satan (2019 to 3001) was built by humans in the past, as a military project to create the most evil car possible. Project Satan, the original were-car, was built from parts of other evil cars, of which the following was identified:
The steering wheel from Adolf Hitler’s staff car
The left turn signal from Charles Manson’s Volkswagen
The windshield wipers from KITT, the car in Knight Rider
The electric motor from Ed Begley Junior’s car
I honestly don’t have the time to continue arguing your straw-men, so yeah, I just kind of just gave up. I don’t argue with small children either and they seem more coherent than you.
I like The Standard. There’s a lot of insightful opinions here. Yours isn’t one of them and I feel like I just get sucked in trying to educate you. So from now, I’ll just be ignoring your comments.
Lolz, what a toy toss, what’s this the second time in a month that you are going to just ignore my comments???,
Strawmen???that argument or is it simply a limp wristed attempted insult got tired years ago,
If you want a real ”strawman” have a look at your comment below claiming the plane in question is a world war one fighter plane,
If that were true it would be totally a gratuitous and unnecessary display of the Swastika to the world press…
I think you are simply being rude.
oh, are you back to being a delicate flower who demands politeness?
You stupid cow
Shut up and fuck off SSLands you stupid fool…
… it’s a museum.
Furthermore, it’s a plane that was used by the Germans in WWI. It wasn’t a Nazi plane at all.
The article also commented that Jackson collects WWI memorabilia. WWI predates the Nazis.
Do you know any history? Because that’s an appalling understanding of world history you have there.
Thinking about history. lprent commented yesterday on the difficulty of introducing worthy policies incrementally when there is no spur of disaster or tragedy or threat to provide impetus. At least that’s my interpretation of his thinking.
I thought about the quote of politics and what is possible so looked up Wikipedia and got German political history and Otto von Bismarck. Which has something to say to us here and now I think.
Good stuff to note. Goodreads gives quote –
Otto von Bismarck
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”
(Other quotes stop halfway at possible – which doesn’t offer the fully rounded thought.)
Looking at Wikipedia.
Interesting man von Bismarck. He formed a unified Germany after a series of short , sharp wars then everything settled down between 1870-1880 and one historian says “Bismarck was an honest broker of peace; and his system of alliances compelled every Power, whatever its will, to follow a peaceful course. ”
So he became an honest broker of peace. Maybe his path can teach us something about the difficulty of playing politics. Sort of like chess with ten side games all at the same time.
“He was the master of complex politics at home. He created a new bureaucratic, efficiency-oriented nation-state. He created the first welfare state in the modern world, with the goal of gaining working class support that might otherwise go to the Socialists he opposed.
He allied himself first with the Liberals (who were anti-Catholic) and fought the Catholic Church in a culture war (the Kulturkampf). He lost that battle as the Catholics responded by forming a powerful Center party and using universal male suffrage to gain a bloc of seats.
Bismarck then reversed himself, ended the culture war, broke with the Liberals, and formed a political alliance with the Center party.
A devout Lutheran, he was loyal to his king, who in turn gave Bismarck his full support, against the advice of his wife and his heir.
While Germany’s parliament was elected by universal male suffrage, it did not have real control of the government. Bismarck distrusted democracy and ruled through a strong, well-trained bureaucracy with power in the hands of a Junker elite that represented the landed aristocracy of the east.
Bismarck, an aristocratic Junker himself, had an extremely aggressive and domineering personality. He displayed a violent temper and kept his power by threatening to resign time and again.
He didn’t do all possible though. He was a monarchist and did not take steps to strengthen constitutional control over the Emperor. The Emperor in the end did not reward him with the lands and standing that he felt he deserved and had earned.
And his attributes were built into a myth of him as an uncompromising powerful figure ‘the man of blood and iron’ that influenced people’s thinking between 1918 and 1933.
Gerwarth (2007) shows that the Bismarck myth, built up predominantly during his years of retirement and even more stridently after his death, proved a powerful rhetorical and ideological tool.
The myth made him out to be a dogmatic ideologue and ardent nationalist when, in fact, he was ideologically flexible. This myth proved to be a weapon against the Weimar Republic, and exercised a destructive influence on the political culture of the first German democracy. Frankel (2005) shows the Bismarck cult fostered and legitimized a new style of right-wing politics, and made possible the post-Bismarckian crisis of leadership, both real and perceived, that had Germans seeking the strongest possible leader and asking, “What Would Bismarck Do?”
So I think that people who don’t really understand what is going on and have no vision of what they want and how to get there, are clearly vulnerable to propaganda which goes against their best interests and prevents their otherwise proper, sensible behaviour.
That I think seems to fit NZ’s position and direction at present.
There’s a nice big swastika here:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02877/royal-tour-swastic_2877891c.jpg
And apparently someone can’t spell “swastika”.
Yes, but that’s in the museum.
The comments of amirite and Bad12 are being directed at Jackson’s own Nazi memorabilia. Which is bizarre because:
A: It’s a museum. Nowhere does it say Jackson own the museum (and if he does… it’s still a museum).
B: The article specifically mentioned he owns WWI memorabilia. Which predates Nazism.
I’m just pointing out where the “Nazi” plane idea came from, not that it’s necessarily correct.
…and that’s some cheeky framing from the photographer.
Let me help you out here: Sir Peter Jackson = Bad and KDC = Good therefore any mud flung at Sir Peter Jackson is good because hes bad especially if it can take the heat of KDC who is good
Cleared that up?
Lolz if you Google ”planes owned by Sir Peter Jackson” there is a link to a page full of pictures including one of Sir Perter(spit) Himself with the swastika emblazoned fighter plane as the backdrop,(about three quarters of the way down the page),
There is no indication that Jackson owns the plane but as Chariman of the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre seems happy enough to display said plane complete with swastika to the Woyals,the world press and the public…
Jackson might take you on as a lackey bad 12 – you have so much spit available, you could spit and polish his planes and his boots as well.
Good to see you believe that people should ”spit and polish the boots of other’s” greywarbler,
Whats next??? a demand that You be provided with a peasant to lick your boots
It would be a better use of said peasant’s time and energy than sitting writing much of the dross that is seen on here. Some people have too much time on their hands. They would be better to have a rag in their fingers and be cleaning something.
Comment of the day Greywarbler, it actually saddens me when people cant even have enough respect for themselves, the people they are referring to or the readers here to correctly use someones name without the bullshit name calling
Mainlander
We aren’t playing cricket here. More beach rounders. And even if it were cricket there are always the unfair moves, the underarm bowling, the nose-breaking fast-ball bowling. Now that’s not cricket! That’s not playing the game fairly.
We actually are quite good natured towards those we basically respect even if they are lacking in some important features, and offer relatively mild expletives in discussing those. We don’t respect those who don’t give a stuff about anyone but themselves and their own interests. They get the message that they are vicious low lives. From me anyway.
It is obvious to me greywarbler which appendage of the Sir in question you would like to polish with your spittle…
I think you are very disrespectful to Sir Peter Jackson.
You are such a fail slylands – it is very disrespectful to greywarbler not jackson
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
That’s almost CHAOS backwards.
So we can all agree your earlier comment, “Can we expect Blubber boy over at ‘wail oil’ to start screeching any moment alluding to Jackson’s Nazi sympathies” was a waste of pixels?
If the plane bearing the Nazi insignia was as you say a world war 1 fighter then it is an even more utterly gratuitous and unnecessary display of the Swastika by an organization headed by Sir(spit)Peter Jackson…
just to clarify, according to the report the toff was touring PJ’s aircraft collection.
Toff sat in a british WW1 fighter.
Toff declined to sit in german WW1 fighter (no swastika).
Toff photographed walking past WW2 german plane, tail swastika in frame.
Take-home message: PJ, a rich NZer, buys lots of war shit. Because his collection is so large he can open it to the public, tories think it is defensible because it’s a “museum”.
KDC, a rich NZ resident, buys a lot of war shit. Because it’s not a collection of planes, tories think it’s indicative of a character failing.
I reckon both are indicative of someone having more money than impulse control.
If KDC only had a signed copy of the book then fine but its not just the book, its the helmet and the flag plus the comments by his friend and the rumours are swirling theres more to come
Sir Peter Jackson may have a plane with a swastika on it.
Theres quite a bit of difference but being from the left you’re probably thinking (wishing, hoping) that KDC can “get” John Key
If a National MP owned a signed copy of Mein Kampf would you lot on the left let it go or defend it?
Yeah right…
What about churchill’s cigar holder?
Actually, what I’m mostly doing is laughing at how desperate you tories are to discredit the guy.
I suppose it depends on how much it looks like the national mp is using it as a policy template. At the moment they’re just using Rand.
I’m not sure they are using either book. I don’t think being able to read is a requirement for being a Nact MP or supporter. Would also help to explain some of those terrible ministerial gaffs. Unread briefing papers.
That’s just them boldly claiming what they want, without listening to the bleating of the weak.
Have read on line that John key’s paternal grandmother bought Herman Goering’s bedroom suite at an antique sale. Wonder if it is still in the family.
It’s somewhat amusing that the deluded right is harping on about somebody owning a book. Perhaps they might be happy if every copy of Mein Kampf was put in a pile and burnt?
If that knowledge was destroyed, how exactly would people learn about the mindset of one of the most dangerous men to ever live in order to hopefully prevent history from repeating itself?
Let me copy my post to someone else who said the same thing a few days ago:
“Oh for crying out loud. This is the argument that most frustrates me. It’s like we lose all concepts of subtleness when this type of conversation comes up.
No one is saying that Kim Dotcom can’t own the book. We’re not saying that it should be burned. We’re not saying that people who own Mein Kampf should be thrown into prison.
All that is being said is that people should perhaps judge a person who decide to buy a signed copy of it for something besides being a historical researcher. Just as Dotcom has the right to buy it, we have the right to judge him for it.
But no, there’s a lot of crows flying around in the sky, you keep building that straw-man.”
Yes! Let’s all judge people for what books they have in their libraries…you’re onto a real winner there Disraeli Gladstone /sarc.
As a lot of surveys have found, most people will judge a person’s bookshelf. From friends to dating prospects to strangers.
I don’t see why politicians get a free ride (and Kim Dotcom now is in that arena).
The only WW2 plane there, a Fw190 in the colours of Nazi Germany’s Luftwaffe, does not belong to Peter Jackson. Jackson collects WW1 aircraft. In WW1, the royal families of England and Germany were very closely related, so Wills could have hopped into a Fokker Triplane that flew in the service of great uncle Wilhelm.
I have no time for the royal family, the smelly bearded hobbit called Jackson, or Key, but in the absence of real fact checkers in this thread, I thought I should point this out.
xox I never considered that a trade deal with China would have ended up with NZ being corrupted. Reminds me of when I witnessed a recent Chinese migrant scraping out his wok in the tennis club car park!
What has what you claim to have witnessed got to do with corruption or the trade deal with China…
I did. In fact, I thought it was inevitable that it would and that we should be questioning the effects of other trade deals including relationship with the WTO.
I really think it is time to revisit abortion laws, particularly with regard to welfare dependency.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11236119
What a nonsensical comment – the article has nought to do with “welfare dependency” and everything to do with a doctor going completely off the reservation.
She broke the law (a law that happens to be wrong) but I don’t think it could be described as going completely off the reservation.
“going off the reservation” is a term that imo shouldn’t be used because of the historical weight behind what happened to the people on and off the reservation.
Our abortion laws do need to be improved so that a) abortion is no longer a crime and b) so that it’s easier to get.
damned straight.
This is a bit further along the wedge into DIY abortion territory, and all the harm that involves.
I agree
and as importantly, education and contraception needs to better delivered to those who are potentially sexually active, therefore reducing the demand for abortion.
all at a price rural women with limted menas of travel and income can afford
The Greens knew what the response would be. It was a bullshit approach to smear Labour. Norman and his white middle class NIMBY party are worried that LABOUR will regain the social democrats that drifted away under Goff n Shearer/ Robertson. It was a drliberate attempt to put Cunliffe in a negative light.
At local level some Greens operate with a sense of entitlement toward Labour, expecting Labour to collaborate with them in one way relationships. Good on them if they get away with it. Labour people should be a lot sharper in dealing with the Greens.
After this effort by Norman to damage Labour we should appoint stronger spokespersons in the environmental and transport portfolios. We should never leave such critical areas to the Greens.
Laugh.
Cunliffe could have skittled this dastardly plot by saying:
“Yep sure; it’s obvious that Greens and Labour will have to work together to form the next government, and fair enough that the executive reflect the support each party has. If voters porefer that the next party be more Labour than green, then that’s how they should vote.”
But no, his brains trust advised him that the best thing to do was to hint to the 70% of his own voters who prefer a green partner to a NZF one, that he kinda disagrees, and is more concerned about what tories think than what his own voters prefer.
Everyone who can count to 50 knows G and L will have to work together. Pretending otherwise makes Labour look like they aren’t ready to do that and that the relationship won’t really work. That leaves centrists who just want competant government voting National, and Green leaning labour voters moving to the Greens to force labour’s hand.
Nice work morans.
+1
Exactly!
Cunliffe has pretty much said that at every opportunity, but carry on…
Didn’t say it yesterday or this morning though, which is what we are talking about.
But, but……..
Bradbury thinks Cunliffe is doing the right thing in pinning his hopes on Winston and should cuddle up even more. Whether this is happening or not, I have no idea, but I know I’ll save at least an hour a day not reading the Daily Bog. Lately, it seems to be a mixture of Bomber’s latest nonsense and a dozen or so hard working right wing trolls. At least here I get some good articles, a wider variety of rubbbish, and fewer right wing trolls. I have never really understood why anyone on the left has ever aligned themselves with Bradbury, and time has not been enlightening.
“At local level some Greens operate with a sense of entitlement toward Labour, expecting Labour to collaborate with them in one way relationships.”
Examples please?
Seems odd because at a national level it’s traditionally been NZFirst (and Dunne) who have insisted on having a relationship with Labour that excludes the Greens.
Not the other way around, chum.
Read this and this and then wonder just who the people at NZTA are actually working for.
It’s not who you know – it’s who you own.
NO WONDER David Cameron has been slow to follow President Obama’s call for economic sanctions “imposing a cost on Russia” over Ukraine: not only does he have to worry about the City’s enthusiasm for Russian money, but Putin-friendly businessmen are among his party’s biggest donors.
Ian Taylor, boss of giant oil-trading firm Vitol, gave the Tories £134,000 last year, a sum which buys him private meetings with the prime minister. His donations since 2006 total more than £600,000.
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=hp_sauce&
And that is the real problem with representative democracy – it’s far too easy for the rich to buy the representatives.
that’s half the story; the other half is that the workers and peoples movements who had the leverage to force politicians to act in the interests of the many have all been systematically undermined or co-opted.
Like the unions who gave the OK to the Labour caucus to raise the retirement age if the MPs wanted to. Good one, guys.
@ CV
Are you moving away from Labour or going to keep persevering?
(Obviously you don’t have to answer that)
Can you make sense of this latest refusal of Labour to make a formal agreement with the Greens?
I’m going to stick with Labour; the party needs an active and radical left wing element to stir up it’s overly centrist, short time horizon and Thorndon focussed outlook.
I just read this article on how drought and disease is destroying major agriculture producing areas of the USA and Brazil. Change is coming, and NZ must be ready for it. This endless talk of “growth” and “balancing the budgets” is utter bullshit and someone at the top needs to start saying so ASAP.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-10/why-meat-prices-are-going-continue-soaring-foreseeable-future
That is both good, yet a shame.
Good that you persevere.
A shame because perhaps your energies might be better spent on parties that have more focus on issues and less focus on capturing the centrist vote. (?)
BL, thank you. In truth I suspect the genuine shame is in working with any political parties whatsoever. There is a strong case that our personal energies should be diverted away from Thorndon bubble hunger games and back into building constructive initiatives right in ones own local community.
That really is an interesting thought.
We need decent people doing both types of political work, though.
That’s actually a concern. Under the present free-market ideology that would push up prices for food produced here which means more would be exported which would increase food poverty here. We’d probably see an increase in deaths from malnourishment unless the government stepped in to stop exports.
A good article on why we should take care of our world and put tariffs back on imports:
Even srylands should be able to agree with it.
This morning’s Radionz news. Deja vu all over again. Piss stories and David drawing back from the taint of future thinking, goodbye hopes for Labour moving forward. He is settling into sensible Helen mode. I suggest that any young people eschew the names David and Richard and John. Look for more inspiring and attractive names. It’s into the bin with these ones.
Helen saved Labour till it was ready to move on up but now it lacks the map, it’s groping in the dark with the old walls gone that you could follow to guide your way. We now need someone bold like Sir Edmund Hillary, like Shackleton able to hold his team together, his talented men with skills to overcome odds and the internal fortitude to keep going in difficult and dangerous times to reach a defined goal, able to adapt to overcome obstacles.
But Labour is flopping like a beached whale coming back on who knows which directional signal, but ending up in the same place no matter what effort helpers exert to set it free. But then why should we be different than other country’s left Labour lack-of-movements. Oz right, UK right. The dingy dinghy bobs along behind the big boys. Keep bailing you down there, we red pollies want to keep our perches and sit and jabber the lines we have learned but we don’t understand.
+111
Well balanced greywarbler: a chip on both shoulders.
Yes it does weigh me down on both shoulders, the sadness that we are faced with in our pathetic political party poltroons. A little alliteration lightens the load temporarily. But it is no joke, and not to be dealt with by smart comments, a quick slur or sneer from NotaPsStaffer.
I’m feeling remorseful greywarbler. Your writing is beautiful and your heart is good.
Good men are gruff and grumpy, cranky, crabbed, and cross.
I suspect it’s no accident that the beached whale is blue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA
Bill’s doppelganger.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/04/maria-millers-great-hypocrisy-representing-people
Russell Norman committed the stupid sin of going like a supplicant to KimDotComs Mansion in Coatesville. See the posts on the 13th -15th February.
This latest play by Norman is not just stupid. It is a deliberate attempt to embarrass Cunliffe.
Precious Norman had a free run in Parliament when Shearer/Robertson failed miserably to make Labour a strong voice of opposition to the government.
Cunliffe is the Official Leader of the Opposition. That is his title. Now Labour has a leader who is also the leading voice of opposition in Parliament. Norman can’t hack it and is paying games.
I hope Cunliffe has a witness and a note-taker with him any time he meets with Russel Norman. Norman has shown the capacity to be stupid and nasty, a dangerous mix for a party leader.
A key audience for such amateur House of Cards behaviour is the Governor General, who will have his choice of an unstable amalgam with 80% chance of exploding in a term, or a massive single party supported (probably) by Confidence and Supply.
It would be tricky, but I could see him offering first bid at forming government to Key in that situation. The GG in fact implied as much. – see old Bowalley Rd post on his speech last year.
Hopefully Cunliffe and Norman know they must learn lessons from this week.
Since Easter slides us into May, it’s 5 months to go.
I do not disagree with you (Not a PS Staffer) here but, there is a but, the Official Leader of the Opposition (as you say) and his team still have their own options of responding in a way that sidesteps, confronts or diffuses any potential embarrassment (whether intentional embarrassment, or unintentional as the case may well be, and whatever the good intention or sinister motivation might possibly be). How difficult would it be for that OLotO to say something such as has been suggested by PB @ 6.1?
Friday today and with the weekend coming up, it is quite questionable what has been achieved the past week and particularly where things the recent few days have put Labour especially for Labour’s 70%, how much has been done to bring out the so-called million M.I.A. (missing in action) from the previous election, and to what extent the pronouncements of recent days have chipped away at Nats support. If it feels like Labour is still treading water, being in a state that feels like there have been some motion but with little distance being made, why are people not surprised?
I have a lot more to say but will have to address my work-weblife balance in favour of the former this afternoon.
Looking forward to posting and sharing some curry recipes on Weekend Social that I indicated I was going to do a few weeks ago.
edit: and yes, Ad adds very important points that I agree.
Then perhaps he should start acting like one.
At the very least, people can presently say: imagine what the OLotO might be like now if the Membership did not have the opportunity to have a voice and DC’s predecessor had not ‘predeceased’?
Collins’ defiance over Oravida upsets Speaker
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11236079
John Armstrong: Labour keeps heat on Collins over companion
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11235636
In my considered opinion, Minister of Justice Judith Collins is CORRUPT and should be sacked forthwith.
What training , knowledge and understanding of CORRUPTION has the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff, Wayne Eagleson?
What training , knowledge and understanding of CORRUPTION have the (anonymous) Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC) staff purportedly dealing with CORRUPT conflicts of interest?
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the (in my considered opinion) CORRUPT Auditor-General, Lyn Provost, whom apparently wouldn’t know a corrupt ‘conflict of interest’ if it leapt up and bit her on the backside?
Petition of Penelope Mary Bright and 13 others
That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into why New Zealand Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City Entertainment Group Ltd at the time she declined to conduct an urgent investigation into the failure of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand to carry out ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre (Bill) 2013.
Petition number: 2011/101
Presented by: Denis O’Rourke
Date presented: 12 March 2014
Referred to: Finance and Expenditure Committee
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the NZ Serious Fraud Office, who deal with bribery and corruption complaints as ‘serious and complex fraud’ complaints – and then do nothing, as they did with a bribery and corruption complaint against Auckland Mayor Len Brown?
Have they received anti-CORRUPTION training from the (in my considered opinion) hopelessly conflicted and compromised Transparency International NZ?
http://www.transparency.org.nz/
“Transparency International New Zealand
Transparency International New Zealand (TINZ) is the recognised New Zealand representative of Transparency International, the global civil society organisation against corruption. We are a not-for-profit incorporated society with charitable status. We are non-political and non-partisan.
Our Vision
A world in which the institutions of government, politics, business and civil society are built on strong integrity systems and the daily lives of people are free from corruption.
We Are
A caretaker of New Zealand’s high trust, high integrity society
Author of the “2013 New Zealand Integrity Plus National Integrity System Assessment”
The local chapter of Transparency International, the world leading anti-corruption agency and publisher of the Corruption Perceptions Index ”
Check out their ‘sponsors’!
http://www.transparency.org.nz/Partners-and-Sponsors
Note – who is their Cornerstone Platinum ‘sponsor’?
Oh dear – The Office of the Auditor General ……………………….
Seriously – you couldn’t make this sh*t up!
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference
Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate (polling 4th with 11,723 votes, campaigning against CORRUPT corporate control of the Auckland region)
http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
Not sure what to do with your Friday evening?
Just got told that there is a fundraiser on tonight in the Ellen Melville Hall.
I know nothing about it apart from it starts at 6pm (and there are tickets at the door?)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31.0-8/p320x320/1278985_10151845028641706_753386732_o.jpg
“It may make them look financially responsible but there’s no point if they’re not being socially responsible at the same time.” – NZ First Spokesperson for Social Policy, Le’aufa’amulia Asenati Lole-Taylor.
A nicely put thought from Mrs Lole-Taylor today on the subject of the National Government’s blind obsession, a budget surplus.
Haven’t heard about the latest from MH370 what with all the carryon from South Africa.
This from CNN 11/Apr/2014
As planes and boats scoured the Indian Ocean for more signals and signs of wreckage, a senior Malaysian government official and another source involved in the investigation divulged details about the flight to CNN on Thursday, including new information about what radar detected, the last words from the cockpit and how high the plane was flying after it went off the grid.
So yet new information being revealed at this late stage. Why the delay?
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared from military radar for about 120 nautical miles after it crossed back over the Malay Peninsula, sources say. Based on available data, this means the plane must have dipped in altitude to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet, a senior Malaysian government official and a source involved in the investigation tell CNN….
“The real issue here is it looks like — more and more — somebody in the cockpit was directing this plane and directing it away from land,” said CNN aviation analyst and former National Transportation Safety Board Managing Director Peter Goelz. “And it looks as though they were doing it to avoid any kind of detection.”
More paranoia from the USA. It wuz hijackers, the pilot etc. It sounds as if it is a response that reflects the person’s Safety Board job, rather than an opinion considering the facts. Then in contrast, what sounds like a voice of reason from former US Dept of Transportation Inspector who offers a theory that has some reasoning behind it.
But former U.S. Department of Transportation Inspector General Mary Schiavo was not convinced. She said the reported dip could have occurred in response to a loss of pressure, to reach a level where pressurization was not needed and those aboard the plane would have been able to breathe without oxygen, or to get out of the way of commercial traffic, which typically flies at higher altitudes.,,,,
The sources also told CNN that Malaysian air force search aircraft were scrambled about 8 a.m. March 8 to the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca, soon after Malaysia Airlines reported that its plane was missing. The aircraft took off before authorities corroborated data indicating that the plane turned back westward, a senior Malaysian government official told CNN.
But the air force did not inform the Department of Civil Aviation or search and rescue operations until three days later, March 11, [Tuesday] a source involved in the investigation told CNN.
Can a country’s armed forces be trusted to tell the truth about their activities? First they didn’t tell their own Civil Aviation for 3 days. Then two days later another government entity denied it happened.
Later Thursday, communications officials from Malaysia’s Transportation Ministry denied that jets had scrambled shortly after the plane went missing, calling that claim a “false allegation.”
And Abbott today is gurgling on about a fifth ping that he says is definitely of value, while other sources say not. We can all be sure that the international airline system has reached its highest level on the Peter Principle.