Open mike 11/05/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 11th, 2013 - 158 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

158 comments on “Open mike 11/05/2013 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. kiwi_prometheus 1
    11 May 2013 at 6:23 am

    “A director of Dominion Finance, which lost investors more than $176 million, wants to serve home detention in her $6.8 million Remuera mansion.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10882946

    Stick bricks in her coat pockets and throw her in the swimming pool.

    • Ennui 1.1
      11 May 2013 at 6:50 am

      I am not sure I really care about “punishing” her on behalf of those who had the cash to invest. I no longer believe in ma and pa investors, garden faeries are more believable. Stuffed if I want taxes spent protecting the rich from the predations of other rich people: if they can afford to invest it they can afford to lose it, or be taxed.

      • rosy 1.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 6:57 am

        It surprises me that the home is apparently not in a trust, so she’ll lose it anyway. The quality of Directors these day eh? She should have at least known how to protect her own assets even if she didn’t have a clue about protecting the easy money of the investors looking for super returns.

      • kiwi_prometheus 1.1.2
        11 May 2013 at 7:01 am

        Great, if people save instead of consume and try to invest that capital to keep themselves out of poverty in old age they are according to Leftists like you “EVIL CAPITALIST SCUM WHO DESERVE TO GET FUCKED!!!”.

        Sigh.

        • Ennui 1.1.2.1
          11 May 2013 at 7:11 am

          You might wish to check out who the average investor was: it was not you and me. The small ones who saved and scrimped were pretty much a tiny minority. Look at SCF, the “Ma and Pa” investors got a guarantee and ripped the tax payer big time. Look at the “ma and pa” 2.5% of the NZ population who bought MRP shares…are they you and me? Fuck them, Let the buyer beware.

          On the other hand there are the savers who believe in banks for long term security. Think more about how their savings get rorted by tax / inflation / bank rip offs etc.

          • kiwi_prometheus 1.1.2.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 7:33 am

            “savings get rorted by tax / inflation / bank rip offs etc.”

            You aren’t telling me anything their I’m not already aware of.

            You are in la la land though if you think bank deposits are the only legitimate form of investment or will ever give good investment returns.

            Finance companies play an important role in the economy, too bad that poor regulation and inforcement have blown that sector up – NZ is poorer for it.

            But you are obviously too ideologically driven to realise the importance of investment for personal and national wealth creation.

            • Ennui 1.1.2.1.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 7:38 am

              Learn how to read and reason, Get the facts first. Idiot.

              • kiwi_prometheus …
                11 May 2013 at 7:45 am

                You are financially illiterate.

                • rosy …
                  11 May 2013 at 7:49 am

                  Financial integrity does not equal financial illiteracy.

                  • kiwi_prometheus …
                    11 May 2013 at 7:55 am

                    So you also believe that a savings bank deposit is the only “moral” wealth anyone is allowed to have?

                    Anything else brings suspicion and accusations of being a “Capitalist Enroader!”.

                    What about kiwisaver?

                    • rosy …
                      11 May 2013 at 8:07 am

                      Moral does not equal integrity either. An investor with integrity will be aware they’re getting pretty high interest for taking pretty high risks. They’ll check out the background of the Directors before they invest, weigh it up and wear it when they take a loss, not withstanding the criminal charges a Director, or ‘financial planners’ should get if they mislead.

                      This is also why it’s curious that this Director doesn’t have her home in a Trust. Finance company directors aren’t known for integrity nor for selling homes to pay back investors.

                      What about Kiwisaver?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:33 am

                      So you also believe that a savings bank deposit is the only “moral” wealth anyone is allowed to have?

                      Nope, that’s completely immoral. Or, to be more precise, expecting interest on it is.

                      What about kiwisaver?

                      Completely immoral as well as it seeks to prop up an immoral system. It can’t, of course, as the system depends upon ever increasing debt and use of oil neither of which is possible.

                    • weka …
                      11 May 2013 at 2:15 pm

                      “What about kiwisaver?

                      Completely immoral as well as it seeks to prop up an immoral system. It can’t, of course, as the system depends upon ever increasing debt and use of oil neither of which is possible.

                      Best investment – put excess money into things that will promote survival and resiliency in the future (that’s not accrual of money in case it’s not obvious).

                      Draco, what do you think about organisations like Prometheus?

                      http://www.prometheus.co.nz/

                    • Arfamo …
                      11 May 2013 at 2:22 pm

                      Isn’t the problem with under-investment in NZ that everyone now knows the market here is just dangerously risky for small players, and you don’t know which advisers you can trust when they are all probably more heavily attuned to taking their personal cut of transactions than worrying about your personal risk?

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 May 2013 at 6:21 pm

                      ” What about kiwisaver?
                      Completely immoral as well as it seeks to prop up an immoral system.”

                      Are you in the Kiwisaver scheme Draco, or did you opt out?

                    • millsy …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:09 pm

                      Saving bank deposits were the choices of our parents and grandparents generations. They seem to do pretty alright.

                      You seem to be speaking the same language of those who support the so-called MOM for SOE’s.

                • Ennui …
                  11 May 2013 at 10:21 am

                  Mr Turkey Brain aka KP. State your working credentials before you accuse me of that. Do you run companies? Do you understand the workings of general ledgers, P&Ls, tax accounting, finance, contracts etc? Is it something you have to apply to company operations, sales, profitability on a daily basis? Demonstrate that and I might consider your flippant charge of illiteracy worthy of debate.

                  PS The leftist anti capitalist bit…what the hell did I say that was necessarily leftist per se? Who are these “capitalists” of whom you speak?

          • weka 1.1.2.1.2
            11 May 2013 at 2:12 pm


            You might wish to check out who the average investor was: it was not you and me. The small ones who saved and scrimped were pretty much a tiny minority. Look at SCF, the “Ma and Pa” investors got a guarantee and ripped the tax payer big time. Look at the “ma and pa” 2.5% of the NZ population who bought MRP shares…are they you and me? Fuck them, Let the buyer beware.

            Ennui, do you have some figures on that? Leaving aside MRP, how many people who got burned in the finance company collapses were of what class and income bracket?

            • Ennui 1.1.2.1.2.1
              11 May 2013 at 4:02 pm

              I have seen a finance companies books but cannot comment on that publicly as it was in confidence. I will have a look around the public records however and report back what is there.

            • Ennui 1.1.2.1.2.2
              11 May 2013 at 4:17 pm

              Cut one was revealing, read this little beauty http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/research/econresearch/3198451.pdf does not give hard numbers but if you read between the lines pages 3 to 5 you get the flavour of huge under investment in finance because disposable income is too low and housing seen as safer with better returns.

        • North 1.1.2.2
          11 May 2013 at 7:49 am

          You’re vigorous for so early on a Saturday morning there KP. Triple-shot was it ?

          Rosy simply points-up that empathy for others doing it hard is an unknown quantity amongst many who have “done well”. The ones who cluck disgustedly, point judgmental fingers, then cheer Boss Hogg Bennett when she launches yet another dog-whistling salvo against beneficiaries and other “unworthy” types.

          The “done-well” become vaguely aware of the concept only when they themselves are reduced to the level of their “lessers”. Even then it’s not actually empathy. It’s essentially sympathy, for themselves.

          I support Rosy in making that point without you jamming your abusive words into her mouth.

          Hope your day improves. Im sure it can. Just summon up some humility, offer it up to your own petard, and ask politely that you be hoisted down a little.

          • kiwi_prometheus 1.1.2.2.1
            11 May 2013 at 8:00 am

            You got yourself all confused North, if you check the thread I wasn’t replying to Rosy, at that point I didn’t notice she had posted.

            Synthetic marijuana was it, North?

            • North 1.1.2.2.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 8:19 am

              Not needed in the North, dickhead.

              Doesn’t matter who you “thought” you were replying to – given the “ideologially driven” screech you’re broadly into your reply can be taken up by many.

              Disingenuous is what you are.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.3
          11 May 2013 at 9:29 am

          Um, that’s the whole basis of capitalism. What you’re actually demanding is that people don’t have to pay the costs of the risks that they take.

          And, yes, every capitalist out there is scum who wants money for nothing. That too is part and parcel of capitalism.

          • TheContrarian 1.1.2.3.1
            11 May 2013 at 9:54 am

            Shorter Draco:
            “And, yes, every person who doesn’t believe as I do is scum who want money for nothing.”

            You have an extremely binary view of the world, Draco.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.3.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 1:32 pm

              Got nothing to do with belief – just the facts of what actually happens in a capitalist society. A few get very rich and well off while everyone else becomes poorer.

              • TheContrarian …
                11 May 2013 at 6:30 pm

                “Got nothing to do with belief”

                Well, actually it does Draco, because you have made a blanket statement that every capitalist (without defining what ‘capitalist’ means to you) is ‘scum’.
                You seem to believe and hold the opinion that ‘capitalist’ is a single entity where, in actual fact, there are sharp degrees of capitalism.

                “just the facts of what actually happens in a capitalist society. A few get very rich and well off while everyone else becomes poorer.”

                That has happened, and can always happen, under any ideology. The best we can do is mitigate the bad while trying to exemplify the good.

                I think capitalism can work just fine. Does that me a ‘capitalist’ because you need to define your terms here. We touched on this on The Daily Blog where you suggested that capitalism = Right Wing but used neo-liberalism as an example. Neo-liberalism is a type of capitalism, not capitalism in itself. I am not a neo-liberal, but I am a proponent Social-market economy capitalism. They are different beasts.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  11 May 2013 at 7:20 pm

                  Well, actually it does Draco, because you have made a blanket statement that every capitalist (without defining what ‘capitalist’ means to you) is ‘scum’.

                  They’re the biggest bludgers in the world. Seemingly their sole purpose in life is to have an income from other peoples work. That’s what investment means in our society and what having money in the bank is. To have an income generated by the work of others.

                  It’s what our entire society is geared for but it only works for the few as to produce a high income from it it needs to clip the ticket of as many people as possible. It’s why globalisation happens – to increase the number of people that the rich can steal from.

                  We don’t need foreign investment as we have all the resources we need right here in NZ – the actual physical resources, the education and the people – and yet the governments keep saying that we do and making it possible for foreigners to buy up NZ. The only reason for foreign investment to happen is for the rich of other countries to steal from us as well as their own people because they’ve reached the limits of their own economy (a firm in a local economy can only grow so much but a global firm can grow so much bigger – the limits are still there though).

                  I am not a neo-liberal, but I am a proponent Social-market economy capitalism. They are different beasts.

                  No, not really.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

                  Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, with the goal of making a profit.

                  It’s always centred around private ownership and the dead weight loss of profit and it is that which makes capitalism, any variant of it, right wing.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 May 2013 at 9:32 pm

                    What a crock of shit, Draco. It is hard to find a starting point in order to address your bizarre uttering so I’ll just address the relevant points here.

                    “They’re the biggest bludgers in the world. Seemingly their sole purpose in life is to have an income from other peoples work.”

                    Who is ‘they’? Are ‘they’ the ‘capitalists’? You’ll have to define your term here. Are ‘they’ those whose actively seek to use capitalism as an economic system to benefit themselves at the expense of others? Or those who benefit from the capitalist system without ever considering it as the ruling economic paradigm? Your use of ‘they’ and ‘the capitalists’ is so ill defined as to be useless.

                    “No, not really.”

                    Yes, really. You understand there is a difference between laissez faire neo-liberalism and Social-Market Economy, right? One promotes privatisation of everything from the police to healthcare while the other supports and fund social welfare, education and health (to name but a few). This is your problem Draco, you have an extremely binary view of the world. Black, white, On, off. Which, to be frank, is a conservative, right-wing view. One that you cloak in left-wing rhetoric but it is a ‘us/them’ mentality all the same which reeks of no true scotsman fallacy.

                    “It’s always centred around private ownership and the dead weight loss of profit and it is that which makes capitalism, any variant of it, right wing.”

                    False.
                    Private ownership of goods =/= right-wing. Capitalism =/= right-wing.

                    Do you own anything, Draco? Have you ever benefited from interest, investment or Kiwisaver?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:36 pm

                      Thanks for the clarification.

                      Capitalism is the major problem. People making a habit of using their existing wealth to garner additional unearned wealth, while the labour utilised on the way gets fuck all.

                    • freedom …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:51 pm

                      hey Contrarian, have you heard about the trickle down theory?
                      it’s going to be a great economic boon for everybody.
                      It’s so exciting,
                      i can’t wait

          • dumrse 1.1.2.3.2
            11 May 2013 at 9:55 am

            I fail to understand why you remain in NZ. The country does not have a communist party in power nor is it likely to have in the near future. You are so far left you should wear a harness to arrest your fall.

            • Jackal 1.1.2.3.2.1
              11 May 2013 at 11:17 am

              That’s a bit unfair. I wouldn’t say Draco T Bastard is hard left for thinking every capitalist is a scumbag! Most capitalists have attained their wealth from the suffering of the poor after all. If you recognize or have been a victim of a corrupted system, then viewing those who have benefited from that corruption as being scum is entirely justified.

              It might not be strictly correct in terms of all rich people aren’t capitalist scum, but it is entirely justified to have formed such beliefs because of the failures inherent within capitalism, namely that it increases inequality. Such a view as Draco has expressed is therefore not extreme at all, unless you’re arguing that inequality is somehow justified?

              • freedom …
                11 May 2013 at 12:03 pm

                “unless you’re arguing that inequality is somehow justified?”

                no, i doubt they would go so far as ‘justified’, they would turn off at ‘necessary’ and take the link road back to Imperialism via the scenic vistas of ‘entitlement’ 😎

            • North 1.1.2.3.2.2
              11 May 2013 at 6:48 pm

              Oh so you now accept that we’re not overrun by North Korean answers do you Dunmbarse. Jesus you’re an egg. Piss off to Slater Porn.

    • Jenny 1.2
      11 May 2013 at 6:54 am

      Here’s a better idea.
      How about we release a number of women serving time in Arohata or Wiri for minor property crimes equal to the total amount that this woman ripped off. And let them serve out the rest of their sentences in this Remuera Mansion. I am sure they won’t mind. And it would be a big saving on the tax payer.

  2. Morrissey 2
    11 May 2013 at 6:45 am

    May 10, 2013
    Assange speech about to read by Daniel Ellsberg in San Francisco for Global Exchange Human Rights Award tonight
    (Noam Chomsky and Jacob Appelbaum also present)

    Thank you for this honor.

    I am very happy to be sharing it with Noam Chomsky whose generosity and strength of character I have felt personally. Noam, you are the sea–relentless and enduring. You have crashed wave after wave of understanding into towering cliffs of lies, eroding them at their base. If the rotten foreshore of empire collapses it will be for this reason. You have inspired and continue to inspire many, including me.

    Thank you to the people in this room for supporting this award. I’m going to thank you and Dan in the best way I know. By keeping this speech short. Then you can go and do the important thing. Make alliances to fight for WikiLeaks, Bradley Manning and me. Don’t think you can escape just because I am not there. We have a lot more spies in this room than the FBI.

    San Francisco and the Bay Area is important to us. We fought our first big court case in the San Francisco federal courts in 2008; That was no coincidence. If we were going to have a fight, anywhere in the world, then I wanted it to be in San Francisco. I structured WikiLeaks to encourage attacks on us to be drawn to San Francisco (sorry about that). The Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Freedom of the Press Foundation and many of our other defenders are based here. If any state of the Union is going to save the United States from itself, it will be California. Washington sees that too–that’s why we’re being prosecuted in Virginia and Maryland.

    Noam’s presence in this room –useful, even though he’s from Massachusetts– reflects something very special. Cross generational solidarity. From Dan and Noam to Michael Ratner, from Kiki to me, from Jacob to Bradley Manning. The issues of each demi-generation are being understood as a continuation into the present. My fight is right now. But so is Bradley Manning’s. So is Jacob’s. I want Dan, Noam and Jacob–all of you here–together with me in this fight because I know you understand. Our conflict tests every aspect of character, but it has also shown it in many and I am proud of them.

    Remember that Bradley Manning’s trial starts on June 3. It is scheduled to run for twelve to sixteen weeks. The prosecution is bringing 141 witnesses. That is a show trial. A twelve-week off-Broadway extravaganza being performed at Fort Mead. Its legal and political result will directly feed into the larger prosecution of WikiLeaks.

    What is to be done? The answer is easy. It has always been easy. Stop saying “not in my name” and start saying “over my dead body”. That’s what we did. It works. Do it.

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rk78hl

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Assange

    https://www.eff.org/

    http://somersetbean.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/new-ts-for-launch-of-fpf.html

    • kiwi_prometheus 2.1
      11 May 2013 at 6:53 am

      Sorry, haven’t you heard, he is a Feminist pariah? Assange is a white guy with CIA backed false rape allegations made against him which the feminasties have swallowed hook, sinker and line.

      You will accused of “rape culture” supporter in a political necklacing, Morrissey, if you are not careful.

      • Ennui 2.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 7:03 am

        KP, Who knows? But the comment does not help because right now we need EVERY believer in justice and fair play to put their support very publicly behind Bradley Manning.

        • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1.1
          11 May 2013 at 7:14 am

          “right now we need EVERY believer in justice and fair play”

          [Deleted]

          [lprent: So you took that as an opportunity to offensively insulting my half of my relatives again. Cretinous misogynistic drivel. And I too believe in delivering justice and fair play. I delete the ravings of bigoted fuckwits. ]

          • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 7:41 am

            That’s right lprent, censor anything that doesn’t concur with your feminist dogma.

            What’s wrong lprent, that it enrages you when I point out crazy feminist propaganda like the “E=mc2 is a sexed equation” nonsense.

            You are no better than a fundamentalist Christian.

          • karol 2.1.1.1.2
            11 May 2013 at 7:44 am

            *sigh* more of your dogma, k_p, throwing out some obscure points that most feminists have never heard of.

            Tell that to the 1000+ people (mainly women) who died in the Bangladesh garment factory collapse.

            The western garment industry exploits the vulnerable, largely women, in poor countries, so they can make exorbitant profits, and try to buy off our resistance with relatively cheap clothing.

            • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1.1.2.1
              11 May 2013 at 7:52 am

              “throwing out some obscure points that most feminists have never heard of.”

              The examples I give are of ideas central to Feminist ideology – Critical Theory, Feminist “Theory”, “Queer Theory” – all psuedo intellectual drivel that has wrecked the Humanities.

              That’s your feminist contribution to knowledge.

              [lprent: enough bullshit. bye. ]

              • karol …
                11 May 2013 at 8:02 am

                Please explain how that “E=mc2 is a sexed equation” is central to Critical Theory, Feminist “Theory”, “Queer Theory”?

                • felix …
                  11 May 2013 at 9:28 am

                  k_p has been given enormous leeway in recent days with multiple warnings for his horrible bigotry and false accusations. It doesn’t seem to be working. Again and again he spouts nonsense about the views of others, as he always has.

                  I wonder if he ought to be given some sort of penance to perform. Perhaps the severity of the penance could be determined by the quality of his answer to your question above.

                  • karol …
                    11 May 2013 at 7:56 pm

                    k_p drops in and repeats a cherry-picked one liner, making accusations about feminism. He brandishes it like a weapon, jumps up and down claiming victory, then runs away without seriously engaging.

                    • Rhinocrates …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:39 pm

                      Yes, we know that, but perhaps it’s time to pull the plug? He’s derailing at best, but his intention is to intimidate and his method is stalking. Maybe no single post has violated any rule, but perhaps his pattern has to be considered?

                      He’s definitely a misogynist and he’s clearly trying to bully specific women he’s very obsessively targeted, and he consistently tries to derail threads to shut down discussion.

                      Moreover, he ignores repeated warnings about appropriate conduct.

                      It’s all very well if Karol and The Queen of Thorns have thick skins, but I worry that he’s driving off other potential contributors – as he intends to.

                    • freedom …
                      11 May 2013 at 9:53 pm

                      reminds me of our PM on any old day in the House

              • QoT …
                11 May 2013 at 12:00 pm

                The examples I give are of ideas central to Feminist ideology

                Citation needed. As usual. 🙄

        • karol 2.1.1.2
          11 May 2013 at 7:20 am

          Indeed. Manning too often gets neglected and he is suffering a the result of his brave act in passing over the damning information about the US military.

          • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1.2.1
            11 May 2013 at 7:38 am

            “Manning too often gets neglected”

            By you maybe, not by me.

            You went to Uni right karol? What did you study?

            • karol 2.1.1.2.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 8:05 am

              My first tertiary education was in education, especially education of those with disabilities. I learned things about biology, neurology, and how people learn, and child development. This learning formed the basis of much of my later learning inside and outside the uni.

              The human brain is a wondrous thing. I learn more about it every day, but some people’s brain functioning remains curiously obscure.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead …
                11 May 2013 at 9:35 am

                We’re learning more and more about bigotry. Things will get interesting when someone invents a cure.

                • freedom …
                  11 May 2013 at 9:52 am

                  there is a great new adventure sport called chuteless base jumping he could try,

          • Populuxe1 2.1.1.2.2
            11 May 2013 at 1:32 pm

            I’m appalled at Manning’s treatment, but the fact of the matter is that he committed treason in the eyes of the law. It is inconceivable that he wouldn’t be punnished in some way, but torture is unacceptable.

            • freedom 2.1.1.2.2.1
              11 May 2013 at 1:59 pm

              “he committed treason” or the equally strong footed view :

              He was upholding the Constitution of the Republic that he was serving.

              • Populuxe1 …
                11 May 2013 at 2:21 pm

                Perhaps you would like to point out which bit of said Constitution he was upholding when he comitted treason against it?

                • freedom …
                  11 May 2013 at 4:36 pm

                  ‘We the People’ is a pretty good place to start.

                  It is often overlooked. The entire document is a flow on from those three simple words. It was the People he was defending, but I do have my doubts you even grasp what that means.

                  He swore the U.S. Armed Forces Oath of Enlistment
                  This includes the propagandized ‘against all enemies foreign and domestic’ line.
                  He concentrated this time on the domestic bit.

                  but you knew that already

                  http://www.theartnewspaper.com/imgart/frny13-d1-diary-metrpolitan-punk-02.jpg
                  “This is what punk was all about—about truth and justice and making a better world,”

                  • Morrissey …
                    11 May 2013 at 5:04 pm

                    Freedom, I presume that you do realize you’re trying to argue in good faith with the Kiwi equivalent of a Soviet commissar.

                    If you’re engaging in that futile exercise as an intellectual workout, that’s fine. As long as you don’t expect anything like enlightened or serious debate.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      11 May 2013 at 5:51 pm

                      Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

                    • freedom …
                      11 May 2013 at 7:10 pm

                      that is an insult to the integrity and resourcefulness of a Soviet commissar. 🙂

                      Populuxe1 is more like the boot buckle worn by the Soviet commissar.
                      Rigid, functional but largely ineffectual to the goings on around him.

                      (i’ma gonna pay for that one i bet)

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 May 2013 at 7:12 pm

                      Well, a decent political commissar will keep his boot buckle pretty and polished up

                  • Populuxe1 …
                    11 May 2013 at 5:50 pm

                    So basically you’ve got nothing except handwaving and fantasy. Typical.

            • Morrissey 2.1.1.2.2.2
              11 May 2013 at 3:39 pm

              …the fact of the matter is that he committed treason in the eyes of the law.

              What a disgusting, Wieselian hypocrite you are. As those of us who do not share your Maoist/Stalinist view of the world know, is not treason to bring war crimes to the attention of the world.

              And spare us the bombast about being “appalled” by mistreatment of which you have repeatedly endorsed on this forum.

              It is inconceivable that he wouldn’t be punnished [sic] in some way…

              It is conceivable that he would be lauded and honoured in a state that valued human rights and the rule of law.

              ….but torture is unacceptable.

              But you endorse the torturers and say that the person who exposed them “committed treason”. If I did not know better, I would think you were merely another bewildered mouth-breathing NewstalkZB listener.

              For anyone with a shred of commonsense or common decency, here’s a reminder of why the full vengeance of the state is being unleashed on Manning and Assange….
              http://www.collateralmurder.com/

              • Populuxe1 …
                11 May 2013 at 5:53 pm

                Maoist? Hahahahaahahaha
                What colour is the sky in your little fantasy world?

                • Morrissey …
                  11 May 2013 at 6:57 pm

                  Your blind and rabid reiteration of government propaganda is comparable to the sort of comical craziness that came out of Red China in the 1960s.

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  11 May 2013 at 7:39 pm

                  I didn’t recognise the first blush when I read it this morning

      • Morrissey 2.1.2
        11 May 2013 at 8:23 am

        …which the feminasties have swallowed hook, sinker and line.

        Some nasty and politically aligned women have chosen to accept the British government’s black propaganda, but Swedish Rape Crisis has, like anyone honest, condemned the British-U.S. government campaign.

    • Jim Nald 2.2
      11 May 2013 at 10:14 am

      “We have a lot more spies in this room than the FBI”

      And the likes of Ian Fletchers are planted into Key spying positions while the “rotten foreshore of empire collapses”.

    • Populuxe1 2.3
      11 May 2013 at 2:09 pm

      Well well, another gold star for an arrogant, mysogynist narcissist and a mendacious, hypocritical old fart.

  3. cardassian 3
    11 May 2013 at 6:48 am

    “”Why do they assume that we have to change our standards, our values, to accommodate behaviour that is sodomy?””

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8659922/Guesthouse-refuses-to-let-gay-couple-sleep-together

    Seems bigotry is perfectly fine though.

    • Ennui 3.1
      11 May 2013 at 6:58 am

      I think the ladies did the right thing: go public. Let the court of public opinion judge the hoteliers with their cash. Conversely if you legislate you only force legal acceptance, which is worth nothing compared to mind share.

    • kiwi_prometheus 3.2
      11 May 2013 at 7:04 am

      LOL, they look like twins!

      • David H 3.2.1
        11 May 2013 at 7:16 am

        Who??? John Key and Aaron Gilmore ? Why they even dress the same. Maybe secretly separated Siamese twins?

    • rosy 3.3
      11 May 2013 at 8:36 am

      “”Why do they assume that we have to change our standards, our values, to accommodate behaviour that is sodomy?”

      So lesbians practice sodomy over and above any other sexual pairing? Riiight.

      • Te Reo Putake 3.3.1
        11 May 2013 at 8:55 am

        Don’t tell the heteros or they’ll be wanting to do the sodomy too.

        • Morrissey 3.3.1.1
          11 May 2013 at 8:59 am

          What’s this about lesbians? Can you be more specific please?

          • locus 3.3.1.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 9:15 am

            hey Morrissey … rtfm 😈

          • rosy 3.3.1.1.2
            11 May 2013 at 9:16 am

            “Can you be more specific please?”

            Just observing that the guesthouse proprietor refused to allow a lesbian couple to share a bed because they would be accommodating “behaviour that is sodomy.”

      • North 3.3.2
        11 May 2013 at 8:58 am

        Well, you know Rosy………just generally………Sodom and Gonorrh(oe)a.

        It’s all in the same GPS ballpark.

        • Morrissey 3.3.2.1
          11 May 2013 at 9:00 am

          As in Hillary Sodom Clinton?

          • Te Reo Putake 3.3.2.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 9:05 am

            As in Morrisodomy?

            • Morrissey 3.3.2.1.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 9:14 am

              That doesn’t go quite so well as Hillary Sodom Clinton—which I am sure, by the way, is actually used by the legion of extreme right wing “Christian” Hillary-haters—but it is not bad, I suppose.

              Keep it up, Te Reo!

              • North …
                11 May 2013 at 1:39 pm

                TRP……..(apologies Morrissey – I’m a fan of yours)……..shouldn’t it be MorrisOddomy ? OK, not as good as either of yours’ but I’m a little hobbled today.

                Consequent upon Kiwi Promethium alleging I’m on synthetic cannabis and Bowel Motion counselling that I should lay off the drink in the mornings. Have a good day folks. Must back to ma Twelve Steps.

    • NickS 3.4
      11 May 2013 at 1:24 pm

      Ironically – sodomy is anything that isn’t straight missionary position (hard right fundy def.) and given the Ruskin’s love of prying into other consenting adults sex-lives, methinks then it’s fair to speculate that the Ruskin’s hath done much sodomy themselves 👿

      Ergo, they should kick themselves out of their dwelling since apparently “no sodomites allowed” is the golden rule thou shalth not break.

      But owner Karen Ruskin said she and husband Michael could dictate what went on at the property: “Homosexuals have a whole industry of hotels that they can go to,” she said.

      Legally a business cannot discriminate on the basis of stuff that falls under the Human Rights Act iirc and you can bet these two muppets would scream blue murder along that line if they suddenly got booted from a business due to being fundamentalist christians.

      Bring on the rainbow cluebat of bad PR and legal challenges!

      • ghostrider888 3.4.1
        11 May 2013 at 1:33 pm

        as noted in the corresponding thread; we all know about sublimation, delusional projection, distortion, superiority complexes and repression do we not.

  4. Harriet 4
    11 May 2013 at 7:02 am

    “No one becomes equal by the killing of another innocent life. That’s not equality, that’s enmity.” – Ryan Bomberger

    Supporting mothers in having the ‘right’ to work from 9-3 tax free, in ‘most’ jobs, if they choose to do so, means that children will be feed before school.Amongst other things.

    Now doesn’t all that bring new meaning to the words ‘productivity gains’ now, and in the next generations! 😎

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1
      11 May 2013 at 9:40 am

      No, it just sounds like more uninformed ideological crap from you.

  5. Paul 5
    11 May 2013 at 8:36 am

    From the Guardian online today……
    “Global carbon dioxide in atmosphere passes milestone level”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/may/10/carbon-dioxide-highest-level-greenhouse-gas

    From the Herald online today….
    “Do you know who I am now?”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10882882

    Four conclusions can be drawn from this.
    1) Our continued civilisation is under threat on this planet.
    2) More people in NZ know about Aaron Gilmore than details about climate change.
    3) The NZ Herald is a poor excuse for journalism.
    4) There is a link between 1,2 and 3.

  6. Te Reo Putake 6
    11 May 2013 at 8:47 am

    Happy 400 ppm day, folks. Gonna be a warm one.

    • Tiger Mountain 6.1
      11 May 2013 at 10:50 am

      Jeeez they are a fiesty lot today on open mike TRP, every day is still like Sunday for Morrissey and KP can’t get much higher. “Sodom Clinton” heh what next.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 10:59 am

        Must be something about the weekend that brings out the warrior in them! Sadly, I’m off to footy, so I’ll have to wait till tonight to catch up with various witterings. Have a good one, TM.

  7. Morrissey 7
    11 May 2013 at 8:57 am

    Just what is it that makes today’s Labour leaders so dithering, so unappealing?

    Let’s not beat about the bush: David Shearer is a terrible, ineffective, wishy-washy Labour leader.

    But as bad as Shearer might be, here’s one fellow who is even worse. Pity the good people of Great Britain if this is all they can put up against Dave Snooty and his Eton chums…

    • North 7.1
      11 May 2013 at 2:20 pm

      Those hurrah henrys got enough bucks to finish their collars properly, surely ?

  8. Paul 8
    11 May 2013 at 9:01 am

    The neoliberals captured the British Labour Party when Blair took over.
    There is no one for workers to vote for in the UK.
    People are that desperate for an alternative and the corporations are ensuring there is not one.

    • locus 8.1
      11 May 2013 at 9:23 am

      hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way…

    • North 8.2
      11 May 2013 at 1:59 pm

      They haven’t yet silenced Chunkymark “The Artist Taxi Driver” and his “BBC Sucks O Cocks News” on YouTube. Ya gotta watch this one – it’s hilarious.

  9. Morrissey 9
    11 May 2013 at 9:22 am

    Elie Wiesel: Break Your Silence and Come with Us to Gaza!

    When Elie Wiesel spoke at Saint Louis University on December 1, 2009, three women challenged him to break his silence about Gaza and to travel with them on the Gaza Freedom March to see for himself the devastation caused by Israel’s Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 and the ongoing siege.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4wkR1IUUE8

    Three years later, and the old hypocrite has still not gone to Gaza.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    11 May 2013 at 9:57 am

    The Stock Market Is a Debt-Fueled Bubble: Steve Keen

    Keen has his eye on margin debt. This is the money people borrow from their stockbrokers to expand their holdings of shares. Keen says the ratio is now 70%, meaning with $300,000 you can borrow $1 million worth of shares.
    Here’s where it gets interesting. Steve has found a relationship between the change in margin debt and the level of asset prices. Even more importantly, he points to a correlation between the acceleration in margin debt and the rise in asset prices.
    If his theory holds true, this means we’re relying on the acceleration of margin debt to drive rising share prices. And when that acceleration slows down, equity prices will fall.

    Thing is, it’s more borrowing that both National and Labour are after with their affordable homes. More people buying = more borrowing and thus we get an increase in money in the system raising GDP. It’s not sustainable and must crash but the politicians will just push some other barrow that achieves the same end – more borrowing.

    The only winners in such a system are the people who print the money with interest on it – the private banks.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1
      11 May 2013 at 1:46 pm

      No one has the stomach to reform our debt based money supply. It’s possibly the biggest no-no in the capitalist banking framework that we have locked ourselves into.

    • ianmac 11.1
      11 May 2013 at 11:47 am

      funny how it gets down to a very simple question. Great clip freedom.

      • freedom 11.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 11:59 am

        and it is one simple question every person can consider for themselves without having to wave a flag or sign a paper or anything. All they have to do is spend a moment of honest contemplation. Something many more should do, more often than we do. I am as guilty as any of that failing.

  12. freedom 12
    11 May 2013 at 11:45 am

    Here are ten facts you may wish to pop into tonight’s dinner conversations. I know, I know, facts are so infuriating when they completely contradict hysterical fantasies, but reality is like that, facts are facts and lies are just business.
    http://www.collective-evolution.com/2012/10/16/10-eye-opening-facts-about-hemp/

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1
      11 May 2013 at 1:48 pm

      Greens have been going on about that for awhile although I think that ALCP have more in depth policies on it.

    • freedom 12.2
      11 May 2013 at 8:19 pm

      Instead of building its future, New Zealand is disintergrating. An average house for a family should not cost $750,000. Things are out of control. A future requires a society to obtain levels of sustainability.
      (If you do not believe that, good luck to you and yours.)

      There is not one single reason hemp should not become a primary industry in NZ.
      Building. Medicines. Food. Textiles. Plastics. Fuel. It just goes on and on and on.

      We could be making milllions of dollars from hemp and hemp related industries if we wanted to, at the very least we could be saving billions if we chose to. The employment opportunities, the related economic growth, the social benefits, the sustainability bonuses, these are not things that should be dismissed lightly. But we all know the drill.

      We have a problem, we look for a solution.
      Whenever hemp is investigated as a viable solution, BAM ! straight into the wall !
      It does have a very bad habit of highlighting sustainability nightmares. Mostly though, there are good responsible reasons given why not to go forward and they usually hold water as strongly as a $2 bucket.

      However you spin it, money influence and engrained propaganda are difficult to overcome without forcing a fundamental breakthrough in how people comprehend the machine around them, and that’s not gonna happen anytime soon if some of the wanderers we meet here are anything to go by. I get that.
      To the reader, I ask you. Will ignoring it all, solve any of the issues?
      Shall we let blinkers crop the vista of our future?

      A future requires a society to obtain levels of sustainability.
      Building. Medicines. Food. Textiles. Plastics. Fuel.
      I cannot see a single reason hemp should not become a primary industry in NZ.

  13. freedom 13
    11 May 2013 at 12:23 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8661224/Like-China-Rens-still-a-wild-card

    This is quite a big deal, we get that, but ….
    Anyone know why he was here?
    What the event was?
    Who the other businessmen that are mentioned were?
    What this piece of US-focused dross is meant to be conveying?

  15. johnm 15
    11 May 2013 at 1:20 pm

    “How Class Works – Richard Wolff Examines Class ”
    Shows up the class war of selling our Power companies whose future profits will accrue to the wealthy instead of the commons.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGOA2WedIQo

    “Working for an employer is like rowing an oar as a galley slave. You can quit and jump overboard but you splash right into the great ocean of unemployment, exclusive professional guilds, multi-level marketing scams, lying temp agencies, credit card debt, college loan scams, a 90% self-employment failure rate due to competition and deficient government benefits. You are forced to swim to and board another galley. Now all the galley ships have robotic oarsmen and you sink beneath the waves.”

  16. prism 16
    11 May 2013 at 1:27 pm

    I’m gradually learning more about the Second World War. There is so much to know and it has always been in my background, occasionally coming to the fore. Now I am older and less hopeful about humanity I have been reading about Resistance fighters etc.

    This morning I am looking at The White Rose on wikepedia. That was the name that a group of protesting and defiant young people mostly students used as their symbol. When studying events in Germany between the wars it becomes obvious that the country had been occupied mentally internally by this authoritarian and brutal regime far before the 1939 declaration of war against Germany.

    The things that are so emotionally expressed in these students’ words have been applied to what is going on in NZ. Many of these young people died at Nazi hands. One group were beheaded in 1943 I think in a public square.
    So what happens every day to limit human rights and step up authoritarianism and fascism must be looked at carefully. Some quotes from the German group:

    If everyone waits until the other man makes a start, the messengers of avenging Nemesis will come steadily closer. (From Leaflet 1, urging immediate initiative by the reader. Nemesis of course punished those who had fallen to the temptation of hubris.)

    …why do you allow these men who are in power to rob you step by step, openly and in secret, of one domain of your rights after another, until one day nothing, nothing at all will be left but a mechanised state system presided over by criminals and drunks? Is your spirit already so crushed by abuse that you forget it is your right – or rather, your moral duty – to eliminate this system? (From Leaflet 3)

    Why do German people behave so apathetically in the face of all these abominable crimes, crimes so unworthy of the human race? … The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals….[The German] must evidence not only sympathy; no, much more: a sense of complicity in guilt….For through his apathetic behaviour he gives these evil men the opportunity to act as they do…. he himself is to blame for the fact that it came about at all! Each man wants to be exonerated ….But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!… now that we have recognized [the Nazis] for what they are, it must be the sole and first duty, the holiest duty of every German to destroy these beasts. (From Leaflet 2)

    • Colonial Viper 16.1
      11 May 2013 at 1:43 pm

      Excellent documentary series on WWII from the Soviet perspective:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A6UWkK2U4s

      One of the episodes is about the Soviet partisan war against the Germans.

      Also consider – 4 out of 5 German soldiers killed in WWII were killed on the Eastern Front.

      The D-Day landings at Normandy in 1944, although an important step in securing western europe, were not very relevant to Germany’s final defeat. Germany had already long lost the war in 1943, at the Battle of Kursk.

      • Populuxe1 16.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 2:26 pm

        The role of the ANZACs is not to be unterestimated. Had they not kept Rommel tied up in North Africa, the Soviets might not have had time to rearm after the Ribbentrop-Molotov fiasco.

        • lprent 16.1.1.1
          11 May 2013 at 2:40 pm

          Not to mention that if the Germans had secured fuel supplies from the middle east then their strategies in Russia wouldn’t have been so skewed by the need to secure oilfields during Barbarossa.

          Ultimately it was the inability of Germany to get a few essential strategic materials from outside of their conquered territories that lost them the battles. It forced them to make strategic mistakes.

          • Clockie 16.1.1.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 4:01 pm

            They made strategic errors, yes, but their big error was going into total war with Russia AND America. Either one could have out produced, outgunned and out fought Germany in the long run. By wars end Russia and the USA were just getting warmed up and Germany was a smoking ruin which had run out of manpower and the ability to re-arm. Also, the conventional war had just about run it’s course anyway. The US had the A bomb. They also had the means to deliver it anywhere in German territory. Germany were close to a bomb, but had lost air superiority and were a long way from having true ICBM’s.

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.2
            11 May 2013 at 8:28 pm

            I agree that North African action greatly limited German options. Further, the horrific two and a half year siege of Leningrad was a disaster for Germany – it tied down 20% of their eastern forces even as 500-1000 Leningrad citizens starved to death daily.

            As for forced mistakes…Hitler regarded himself as a military super-genius and things went down hill rapidly when he decided to put himself in charge of all military operations. Not letting his army withdraw from Stalingrad and deciding that a quarter million cut off German forces could be resupplied by air? Mad.

        • Murray Olsen 16.1.1.2
          12 May 2013 at 12:16 am

          The Afrika Korps wouldn’t have even been noticed on the Russian Front. It swallowed up whole Army Groups. Rommel fought against a few divisions which made up the 8th Army. Operation Barbarossa kicked off seventeen months before the second Battle of El Alamein, which was three years after Ribbentrop and Molotov divided up Poland.

          If anything, the Red Army saved Egypt for the British Empire, not the other way around.

      • millsy 16.1.2
        11 May 2013 at 9:07 pm

        It helped that Hitler made a few bad choices as well, peeling off elsewhere when he had a chance to press home his advantage. I think one of them was to push down into Ukraine when he could have taken Moscow before winter.

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.1
          11 May 2013 at 9:13 pm

          You would’ve thought that Germany would not want to make Napolean’s same mistakes in Russia.

          Hitler did need to capture the industrial centre of Kiev so there was a strategic purpose to that. However, delays to capturing Moscow created huge problems for the Germans, and it allowed the Soviets to ship in elite eastern divisions to bolster the Moscow front.

          Trying to go after the caucuses and Stalingrad and Moscow at the same time was never going to work. Classic Art of War – if you try to be everywhere, everywhere you will be weak.

          • Arfamo 16.1.2.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 10:17 pm

            You also have to factor in the massive intelligence failures of the Nazis regarding the USSR. They completely underestimated the size of the soviet forces and their massive reserves. They underrated the intelligence and determination of the soviet soldiers and officers who, after initial mass surrenders, chose to thereafter fight on behind advancing German lines even after being encircled and were a constant threat to their rear and flanks, as well as to their fronts.

            They had no idea that the soviets even had the T34 and KV tanks, far superior to the panzer III and IV’s, nor that they had developed aircraft like the Mig 3, Yak 3, La 5 and 7’s, Il 2 and 10 shturmovics, and their katyushas etc. They never gave any consideration to the industrial capacity of the USSR and their ability to dismantle and reassemble their armaments factories well out of reach of German short-range bombers. Even though lend-lease provided them with allied war materiel, the USSR proved itself able to produce all manner of war materiel in such high volumes they were easily able to replace their losses as the war dragged on, when the Germans could not.

    • lprent 16.2
      11 May 2013 at 2:47 pm

      If you can get access to the War Memorial Museum library, then that’d be about the best source in NZ on some of the resistance movements.

      Not only did we have people scattered throughout europe and the pacific and they wrote stuff down, but we also got quite a lot of refugees and emigres pre and post war who did as well. It seems like most of the hardcopy wound up there.

      There was a year when I was a kid where I was attempting to soak up that library.

    • ianmac 16.3
      11 May 2013 at 4:37 pm

      The same steady withdrawl of rights is happening now in NZ, but the populance finds it hard to get a fix on it and react. Much easier to join in the scrum on Mr Gilmore’s flaws than that of democratic rights or security from spying etc. We need a serious focus to prevent the slide. Sympathise with the Germans of the 30’s because they by the time they realised the significance of what they had lost it was too late to resist.
      (Read about a butcher in Vienna who was anti-Nazi until the day the German army marched into Austria and declared the country to be part of the German Nazi empire. The next day the butcher marched down the road waving the German flag. “Survival,” he said.)

  17. Ugly Truth 17
    11 May 2013 at 1:27 pm

    A survivor of a high-level ring involving child sacrifice, torture and trafficking went public today in an exclusive disclosure and interview with Freedom Central’s Mel Ve and ITCCS Field Secretary Kevin Annett.

    Toos Nijenhuis, a fifty four year old physiotherapist and mother of five from Holland, was tortured, raped and used experimentally from the age of four years old by wealthy and powerful men around the world, including top officials of churches and governments.

    And, Nijenhuis claims, these crimes are continuing today, including the ritual sacrifice of children in rural Holland.

    http://itccs.org/2013/05/08/child-sacrifice-and-trafficking-in-holland-and-abroad-an-eyewitness-comes-forward-and-names-her-torturers/

    • Populuxe1 17.1
      11 May 2013 at 1:49 pm

      Is that tinfoil hat too tight again. Show me on the doll where the Illuminati touched you?
      Seriously? I’m not doubting she suffered terrible abuse, but she’s quite obviously projecting this elaborate fantasy onto it to try and give that horrible abuse some meaning. Another similar and widespread projection onto childhood sexual abuse is alien abduction. There is no global satanic conspiracy and this sort of nonsense just distracts from the horrible mundane reality of child abuse.

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1
        11 May 2013 at 2:20 pm

        Oh shucks another online spychology diagnosis.

        • Populuxe1 17.1.1.1
          11 May 2013 at 2:28 pm

          Well why should you have all the fun with your diagnoses of sociopathy for the entire NACT caucus and so forth? Or did the Illuminati touch you too?

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.1
            11 May 2013 at 2:36 pm

            So are online psych diagnoses credible or not? Or only credible when they come from you?

            • Populuxe1 17.1.1.1.1.1
              11 May 2013 at 5:57 pm

              Well either we can both be right or we can both be wrong. I’m fine either way, so take your pick.

            • TheContrarian 17.1.1.1.1.2
              11 May 2013 at 6:56 pm

              You’ll have to ask Dr. Prentice.

        • ghostrider888 17.1.1.2
          11 May 2013 at 2:28 pm

          cornell

      • Ugly Truth 17.1.2
        11 May 2013 at 7:18 pm

        “she’s quite obviously projecting this elaborate fantasy onto it to try and give that horrible abuse some meaning”

        Obviously, meaning in your deranged opinion.
        Institutional sexual abuse is nothing new.

  19. ghostrider888 19
    11 May 2013 at 2:18 pm

    To The Handlers;
    Risk is not necessary. Scientific development concept
    Bone-modern-marrow admirably sails, bracing
    the vigorous weight of the People while The Struggles
    with the Persians remaining indecisive, abundant Africa
    is being recovered from the vandal al1ens.

    You can pencil that in three places
    (Ray-guns are a fetish for steam-Punks,
    may be buried with Wessex culture) We all
    harden up with influence and Able instrumental guidance;
    Plumb the depths, clean out the pipes, dispose the waste.

    Quelle : Lectiones geometricae; pictures italicized
    (or a combination Friend rice, Edgar; #23 8)

    Eponymous / Mick Ronson Priestley (Whats My Name)
    contend more in written acts than words.

    The Shepherd’s crook, cuts right across the diagonal;
    “he came to minister, not to be ministered to”.

    “and let no-one attempt to reclaim (them) from the stigmata of their new master”.
    Let no-one trouble them for the record of their transaction is in the temple.

    Signs Of The End Of The Age, Watch!

  20. lprent 20
    11 May 2013 at 3:21 pm

    Damn. The weird crash of php5-fpm and then apache happened again.

    Reading the logs.

    I think I’ll pull the APC offline as whatever is happening seems to be too low level to get logged.

    Expect the odd outage for the next hour while I juggle the server.

  22. Rogue Trooper 22
    11 May 2013 at 7:46 pm

    Hollywood Irons another 15% out of the NZ Film Submission taxpayer.Man