Open mike 12/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 12th, 2022 - 68 comments
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68 comments on “Open mike 12/10/2022 ”

  1. SPC 1

    Belated moves to supply air defence systems to Ukraine (presumably to protect its energy infrastructure).

    Leaders of the G7 group of rich nations have said they will back Ukraine for "as long as it takes" in the wake of Monday's major Russian missile strikes.

    The group, which met for emergency virtual talks, said it would keep on giving military and humanitarian aid.

    Nato also said it would stand with Ukraine for as long as necessary.

    "We will continue to provide financial, humanitarian, military, diplomatic and legal support and will stand firmly with Ukraine for as long as it takes," the group said in a statement.

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky asked the G7 for further air defence capabilities.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63217558

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEUx0f2gu9g

  2. Jenny are we there yet 2

    '

    The Following cities in Ukraine hit by Russian missiles

    [deleted unattributed copypasta]

    Do I need to name all the idiots on this site who claim that Ukraine and its supporters are the aggressor?

    [the only sources I can find via google for that list are a meme website and a pro-putin twitter account that has no reference. Neither of those are acceptable sources for claims of fact. You also failed to link to where you copied from. You absolutely know that all quotes have to be linked, and I’m sick of having to chase this up. Stop treating TS as if it’s FB. Two week ban (double your last ban) – weka]

    • SPC 2.1

      The air bombardment came with the appointment of Surovikin, known for the bombing of Aleppo (when commander of their aerospace forces) and atrocities in Idlib in Syria (when in army command). He later became a General with command of the 5th southern district.

      His combat roles were in Afghanistan 1980’s Moscow 1991 and Chechnya 2004.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2-5It_PJv0

    • mikesh 2.2

      One has to wonder why they continue fighting Are they lunatics? Their buildings are being turned to rubble, their civilian populations are being either killed or forced to seek refuge in neighboring countries What is it all for? To regain territory whose inhabitants have made it pretty clear, since 2014, that they do not want to be part of Ukraine?

      Russia's interests seem pretty clear. They need to hold Crimea, which seems to be an important defensive outpost for Russia. They also probably need to re-establish land access to Crimea. They had that access, via Ukraine, when the latter was friendly to Russia, but that seems to have changed, since 2014, with Ukraine looking Westward and seeking to join NATO.

      I look at the situation much the same way as I would look at a chess game, and I see that the Ukrainians are doing rather well. I see also that the Russians have refrained from playing the nuclear gambit – up until now anyway.

      • Peter 2.2.1

        Hold Crimea because it's an important defensive outpost? Defence against what and whom? Ukraine attacking Russia seeking to annex it?

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.2.2

        To regain territory whose inhabitants have made it pretty clear, since 2014, that they do not want to be part of Ukraine?

        The 1991 referendum to leave the USSR was as below. Post that leaving Russia started moving more Russians into the area – similar in approach to Israel and China. Take over the space with your own people then say it is yours.

        The 2014 referendum was as dodgy as hell.

        The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine. It is not recognized by most countries, mainly due to the presence of Russian forces. Thirteen members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, but Russia vetoed it and China abstained. A United Nations General Assembly resolution was later adopted, by a vote of 100 in favor vs. 11 against with 58 abstentions, which declared the referendum invalid and affirmed Ukraine's territorial integrity. As the plebiscite was proclaimed, the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People called for a boycott of the referendum.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

      • Barfly 2.2.3

        "One has to wonder why they continue fighting Are they lunatics? Their buildings are being turned to rubble, their civilian populations are being either killed or…."

        Britain V Nazi Germany 1940 just as well they didn't listen to defeatists then either

      • joe90 2.2.4

        One has to wonder why they continue fighting Are they lunatics?

        Yup, they should let Putin annex Ukrainian territory without a fight like they did in 2014 because that will placate him and he won't invade and annex more Ukrainian territory and attack Ukrainian cities and kill even more Ukrainians like he did in 2022.

        ffs //

      • Gabby 2.2.5

        The nuclear gambit is the one where you throw away all chances of winning by throwing the board over, right? I can't imagine why they haven't tried that.

    • Jenny are we there yet 2.3

      Russia launches biggest air strikes since start of Ukraine war

      https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-ria-state-agency-reports-fuel-tank-fire-kerch-bridge-crimea-2022-10-08/

      Ukrainians express their defiance

      "We are not scared, we are just very very angry" – Ukrainians respond to major missile attacks on Kyiv

      So far, 10 people have been reported killed in the missile and drone attacks, whilst 60 have been injured. The strikes hit civilian areas as well as key infrastructure like Kyiv’s thermal power plant (TPP). But Kyiv’s war-hardened citizens are not going anywhere.

      “We are not scared; we are just very very angry. These are fucking terrorists. This is not normal,” Kris, a humanitarian worker, told her more than 21,000 Instagram followers…..

      ……Queues formed outside the shops as people cancelled their plans for the following days. Despite the sombre mood, Kyiv’s unity and community spirit constantly exceed the pressure of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s attacks.

      “We had a little party during the air siren,” Kris jokes. “I was chatting in the queue with grannies and teenagers at the coffee shop. We were all talking about what an arsehole Putin is.”……

      …..“Not even a nuke will kick me out of Kyiv,” she says.

      This sentiment is shared by Nikita and his girlfriend Anna, who also refuse to leave Kyiv, despite the threat of more strikes in the future. “They can shell everything. Why leave for nothing when we can stay and do something,” Nikita told bne IntelliNews.

      “Be Ukrainian, be brave,” Anna exclaims.

      https://www.intellinews.com/we-are-not-scared-we-are-just-very-very-angry-ukrainians-respond-to-major-missile-attacks-on-kyiv-258894/?source=russia

      With spirit like this Russia’s defeat is guaranteed.

    • Karl Sinclair 2.4

      Hi Zero,

      You said

      “Do I need to name all the idiots on this site who claim that Ukraine and its supporters are the aggressor?”

      I think you have oversimplified my friend, Russia is not the only aggressor. I’d almost say you have Zero understanding.

      Take sometime out and review these idiots then.

      “Chomsky’s position on Russia-Ukraine relations is surprisingly similar to International Relations (IR) scholar John Mearsheimer’s (and to a lesser extent, Henry Kissinger’s). According to Professor Mearsheimer, the U.S. is to blame for Russia invading the Ukraine. By pressuring Ukraine to join NATO, the U.S. intensified an already tense situation. It provoked Putin to defend Russia’s security interest in keeping Ukraine out of NATO. (For more, see “Mearsheimer on Ukraine.”)”

      Noam Chomsky: article https://medium.com/statecraft-and-global-affairs/chomsky-on-ukraine-america-is-manufacturing-monsters-f136e7b217a9I’m

      Prof Jeffrey Sachs: https://youtu.be/wmOePNsNFw0

      Prof John Mearsheimer: https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM

      Col Douglas Macgregor: https://youtu.be/gaHa59_daGo

      Kissinger: https://youtu.be/WOZw0zGFvzI

      Alexander Mercouris: https://youtu.be/GYCNkjJ5m9k

      Chris Hedges: see example of his work – Chris Hedges Report: Ukraine and Crisis of Media Censorship

      Throughout the Ukraine war, Western news outlets have mindlessly parroted the opinions of a ruling elite and overseen a public discourse that is often unhinged from the real world. 

      https://youtu.be/N0H7PIJcEP0

      John Pilger – This Is a War of Propaganda’: John Pilger on Ukraine and Assange https://youtu.be/u9pEotvlW-s

      • Ad 2.4.1

        If it was a war about joining NATO, Russia would have invaded Finland by now.

        This isn't a war about propaganda.

        Belarus and Russia to deploy joint regional military group | News | DW | 10.10.2

        This is a war of murder and torture by Russian people against Ukrainian people.

        And now Belarus joining its military into Russia's. This puts Poland a NATO member fully in the frame.

        The chances of Ukraine continuing to exist without a full defence pact with NATO are now zero.

        If Putin wanted to avoid a proxy war with NATO, what he's done is get one.

        Ukraine submitted its request for full NATO membership on 22 September 2022. Turkey will veto it. A future Ukraine will join the EU, and have a defence pact with NATO without full membership.

        • SPC 2.4.1.1

          Yep, a NATO security guarantee to all EU members. It could well be

          1. the building block for EU defence force (not USA/UK) personnel stationed in Ukraine.
          2. lead to a separation of NATO (USA/Canada/UK/Norway) and the EU – united via a defence pact.

          The second part could co-exist with an EU-Russia defence pact post the Putin/Duginite era.

      • Jenny are we there yet 2.4.2

        Hi Karl, I didn't know your list of 'idiots' commented here.

        But apart from that. I am familiar with most of these names, as supporters and apologists for the disgusting genocide in Syria.

        (While these intellectuals and writers may not be idiots, their one eyed hatred of US imperialism, has obscured their vision).

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQni3qn6GIU&t=2s

      • Jenny are we there yet 2.4.3

        I might add here Karl. The intellectuals in your list of impassioned writers and commentators have made a historic mistake. These illustrious individuals mistake is in thinking that US/Western imperialism is the only evil in the world. This mistaken viewpoint is not unprecedented.

        The mistake was made by writers in commentators in Germany before the war, who considered British Imperialism to be the only evil in the world

        So convinced were leading German intellectuals of the genocidal and racist nature of the British Empire, (and they weren't wrong about that), That they gave their support to the German National Socialists and their newly envisioned Nazi empire.

        But the solution to the evil of imperialism is not another imperialism.

        Because all empires are genocidal, racist and avaricious.

        Racism, genocide and the driving motive of greed at the core, is the nature of all imperialisms.

        Russia took control of $12.4 trillion fields in Ukraine

        Friday, 3:30 AM | August 12, 2022 by admin

        ……Referring to data from the Canadian analytical company SecDev, the publication claims that Russian control now includes 63 Ukrainian coal deposits, 11% of oil reserves, a fifth of natural gas, 42% of metals, and a third of deposits of rare earth elements, including lithium necessary for the production of batteries. Among other things, Ukraine has lost large deposits of uranium, gold and limestone. All in all, Kyiv could lose access to two-thirds of its energy and mineral reserves.

        All these deposits are needed for the production of high-tech products from microelectronics to components for aviation, which, according to the authors of WP, will make it difficult for the West to find alternatives to imports from Russia and China…..

        https://scooptrade.com/wp-russia-took-control-of-12-4-trillion-fields-in-ukraine/

        • Karl Sinclair 2.4.3.1

          Hi, Jenny are we there yet

          You said

          But apart from that. I am familiar with most of these names, as supporters and apologists for the disgusting genocide in Syria.” …………”While these intellectuals and writers may not be idiots, their one eyed hatred of US imperialism, has obscured their vision”

          So Chomsky, Hedges, Prof Jeffrey Sachs, Prof John Mearsheimer, Col Douglas Macgregor are all genocide supporters?

          Love to see those references

          Cant really speak on their behalf but they appear to be American and suspect they love the freedoms of speech and Americas core values. I suspect the imperialism side they’re not to fond of. They’re not exactly one eyed. Again if you can show this “hatred” they supposedly exhibit, please provide references….

          cheers

          • Jenny are we there yet 2.4.3.1.1

            So Chomsky, Hedges, Prof Jeffrey Sachs, Prof John Mearsheimer, Col Douglas Macgregor are all genocide supporters?

            Love to see those references. Karl Sinclair

            Since you asked:

            I don't know all of the intellectuals and commentators on your list, Karl. So I will admit that I can't make a judgement on all of them. But I do know for a fact, that those names on your list, that I do recognise have supported, or at the very least denied the ongoing grisly genocide being carried out right now in Syria by the Assad regime and their Russian allies.

            https://www.aa.com.tr/en/anadolu-post/assad-regime-hanged-13-000-opponents-amnesty/742944

            For Noam Chomsky, the first person on your list, (and probably the most recognised and feted among this group of intellectuals), this is not his first outing as a genocide denier. As well as supporting/denying the genocide in Syria committed by the regime of Bashar Al Assad, Chomsky has supported/denied genocide in Cambodia committed by the Pol Pot regime.

            From wikipedia:

            …..Many scholars of Cambodia and intellectuals opposed to the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War denied or minimized the human rights abuses of the Khmer Rouge, characterizing contrary reports as "tales told by refugees" and U.S. propaganda.[1]

            ……On 6 June 1977, Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman published an article in The Nation …..

            Their conclusion was:[14]

            ….. What filters through to the American public is a seriously distorted version of the evidence available…..

            ….Cambodia correspondent Nate Thayer said of Chomsky and Herman's Nation article that they "denied the credibility of information leaking out of Cambodia of a bloodbath underway and viciously attacked the authors of reportage suggesting many were suffering under the Khmer Rouge."[29]

            ….Chomsky, he said, questioned "refugee testimony," believing that "their stories were exaggerations or fabrications, designed for a western media involved in a 'vast and unprecedented propaganda campaign' against the Khmer Rouge government, 'including systematic distortion of the truth.'"[30]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial

    • weka 2.5

      mod note.

  3. adam 3

    Wow 20 years today.

    Feels like it just happened yesterday.

    • Bearded Git 3.1

      Adam-can you say what you are talking about-the subject of your post-rather than turn us into clickbate.

      • Barfly 3.1.1

        mouse over link = Bali bombing no need to click

        • Macro 3.1.1.1

          It depends on the browser being used, whether the nature of the link shows up.

          Thank you for enlightening the rest of us who aren't using your browser.

  4. SPC 4

    The Oxfam international inequality index ranks governments on policies and actions that have major impacts on reducing inequality, like public service spend, taxes and labour rights. Overall, New Zealand was 8th.

    136th out of 161 when it comes to fair wealth distribution, and little better on tax at 91st and labour rights, 74th.

    It looks like we need a government from 2023 that includes a party with a plan in these areas.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/exclusive-new-zealand-ranked-136th-in-world-on-fair-wealth-distribution-leading-to-call-for-new-tax.html

    • Ad 4.1

      So you will remember just last month when the entire banking and Kiwisaver industry strapped on a 24 kilo enema bomb just for proposing a marginal tax on fees?

      What the media are looking for now and until the 2023 election is tax cuts.

      And that's likely to be the only dice throw they have left.

      • SPC 4.1.1

        Labour should

        1. adopt the simple Greens wealth tax (the smart land tax applied at over $1M only) – other nations do the more complicated things like CGT and inheritance taxes.

        Use the money raised to adjust income tax thresholds. More people on higher incomes would gain than lose from this approach (let those people fight each other over it).

        2. collect 1% from employees and employers to fund the contribution to the Cullen Fund (frees up money for health and capital input to kainga ora) – if they do not National will stop future contributions (as per 2008-2017).

        3. as part of an income support package – WFF tax credits and AS – some change at the bottom of the tax system. My preference would be a low rate 10 cents up towards $20,000 (something across the board) and a low income earner rebate for individuals and couples on two incomes without children.

        • Ad 4.1.1.1

          Only point 3 has a chance Budget next year.

          Personally I'd wipe tax on all benefits including NZSuper and a really low tax for any income under $20k. Stop taxing the poor.

          • SPC 4.1.1.1.1

            Sure, it's about the 2023 election policy.

            Benefits are tax paid, Super is based on an assessment of net tax (is impacted by rising incomes and tax changes).

            PS. The USA is set to soon have one of the the largest increases in Social Security ever (nothing like it since the 70's) – we don't hear so much about affordability projections since the GFC and the pandemic though (QE …).

      • AB 4.1.2

        What the media are looking for now and until the 2023 election is tax cuts

        Yep. But as a differentiation from the Nats, call it "tax cuts for the many, not the few". So start lowering GST in a series of planned and phased reductions (12.5%, 10%), and introduce a tax-free threshold on initial earnings with a series of phased increases to that threshold (initial $10k, $15k, etc.).

        Propaganda-wise, steal the Tory, Laffer curve bullshit of saying that the increased growth that results from these cuts will (ahem) over time actually increase tax receipts. With tax cuts for the many it might actually prove partially correct – though also with a demand-driven inflationary risk. Paying for it – increase tax on higher incomes so that from about $90k the effect is neutral and then turns net-negative somewhere in the lower-mid 100's. Almost certainly, this wouldn't be enough, so debt would have to increase, but there is some room for that.

  5. It looks like we need a government from 2023 that includes a party with a plan in these areas.

    Why wait until 2023? Why not address things now?

  6. Mr Nobody 6

    @Jenny are we there yet

    Do you mind sharing the source for the above target list? I'm trying to find a bit more details and the only google search results I get are for images containing this information.

    Thanks in advance.

    • weka 6.1

      Jenny's comment has now been edited, because it's against site policy to copy material here without attribution. I found stupid memes and a pro-Putin twitter account as sources, none of them seemed useful for information.

  7. Molly 7

    One selection from Auckland Libraries teenage books:

    Welcome to St. Hell : my trans teen misadventure / Lewis Hancox

    Before the tired old "pearl clutching" accusations emerge, I am not suggesting any banning or removal, but questioning the presentation of bad information, and the influence this lack of quality may have on teenage readers.

    Particularly those girls who struggle with the developments of puberty.

    To think we critiqued publications like Cosmo for increasing body issues in teenage girls, and this celebration of bodily judgement and disconnection is feted.

    https://twitter.com/FamEdTrust/status/1579784233320869888?s=20&t=jaO04L1uUH5LDCRMqLjSRw

  8. Thanks SPC for keeping the debate/query going. Recognising the in built inertia in Govt implementation, which can be a good things as well as a bad one, it does seem that we could be working on aspects and signalling that we are. Otherwise the way the media seem to work is that

    'can't see anything,

    no Govt comment on this

    therefore they (Govt) are not doing anything'

    More and more…'they are not doing anything' feeds into opinion polls that reflect 'they are not doing anything, I am being ignored' If we/Labour want a third term they will need to do more than sleepwalk or 'trust us'.

  9. AB 9

    I've heard the argument in the last day or two that reducing NZ's agricultural production will see that gap filled internationally by overseas farmers who have a higher GG emissions. Meaning higher aggregate global emissions. National's agriculture spokesperson Barbara Kuriger made it here as did Andrew Hoggard on RNZ. I'm informed secondhand that Luxy also did it as part of the media round this morning.

    So a superficially appealing talking point. But what does it mean in practice?

    Is some non-existent global referee going to set target emissions for industry sectors and require those countries who exceed them by the greatest margin to act first, while stellar performers like our NZ farmers can change more slowly?

    Or is National's emissions policy for agriculture to actually produce a whole lot more, achieve worldwide market domination and displace all high-emitters with our clean-green products, thus saving the rest of planet – who will be eternally grateful and never be alarmed by the resulting rural decay and loss of food security in their own countries?

    But neither of these will happen – so it must be just an obfuscation to justify more can kicking.

    • Was front page (I understand – I read it online, so can't actually confirm) of the Herald this morning

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-front-page-why-farmers-are-opposed-to-govts-emission-plan/N36PQMAXVP62EAUEUQQ6OMJFRU/?c_id=1&objectid=12558072&ref=rss

      So, you're right, being widely discussed. I have no doubt the discussion is being driven by interest groups, but still needs to be responded to, forcefully.

      Or, the EP is going to suffer from the same loss in public confidence and support that 3 waters has experienced.

      The specific points from the article

      • Job losses in small towns (due to the reduction in herd size)
      • Will dropping ag exports simply mean other countries will increase their ag exports to fill the market gap? (as you pointed out many of these will have much greater carbon costs than NZ farms)

      A third point which I heard in passing on Nat rad (so can't link, I'm sorry – maybe it was the same Hoggard piece you're referencing), was that reducing ag production will result in increased food prices.

      But here's a similar piece from Stuff (it's very much 'might' increase food prices – but take that with a grain of salt, if farmer's costs go up, and stocking rates go down, then prices will increase)

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/130135935/food-prices-will-go-up-when-farmers-start-paying-for-their-emissions

      • Barfly 9.1.1

        Well this frankly seems a little odd after all I have so many times the spiel that the price paid in New Zealand is the 'market' price and so because the 'market' price is set by the international market that we export to…In a shorter sentence we already pay the maximum they can get!

        • Descendant Of Smith 9.1.1.1

          Apples growers made it quite clear they don't sell their surplus apples to the local market so as to keep the price up. Oil, diamonds same thing – the market isn't a free market it is controlled left, right and centre.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.1

            And according to some would rather leave the produce rotting on the ground if they cannot ensure their prices remain high, though last season the excuse was lack of imported seasonal pickers.

            I remain very cynical/skeptical about much of what farmers or their reps say.

  10. pat 10

    Is there some issue with today's Daily Review that appears to have vanished into the ether?

  11. X Socialist 11

    Today I heard James Shaw and Damien O'Connor get hammered during their respective radio interviews regarding Labours Emission Scheme. What scares me was how vague some of their answers were. In my opinion Labour's fate was sealed today. The question that may be more important for the country is 'what policies, apart from the obvious, will National roll back once in government? Seems to me more damage may be done untangling the mess this country is in. That may encourage the Tories to leave things as they are. Given their propensity to hold the status quo, we may be jumping out of the fat and into the fire, if the so far weak National Party response to the emissions scheme is anything to go by.

    • Incognito 11.1

      What scares me is how sloppy some of the comments here are.

      What irks me is that some still refer to voices in their heads rather than providing simple links to the sources of those voices.

  12. joe90 12

    Nothing says courageous, independent truth-teller quite like taking an autocrat's cash to make a puff piece about him.

    /

    Released in 2021 as both an eight-hour miniseries and a feature film, Qazaq: History of the Golden Man turns a flattering lens on Nazarbayev as he reminisces about his years in power and shares thoughts about the country’s future.

    As it turns out, a charitable foundation named after and controlled by Nazarbayev paid at least $5 million for the production, a conflict of interest that was not disclosed. Last year, Stone and the film’s director, Igor Lopatonok, told the Guardian that the Kazakh government was not involved, but refused to discuss who had funded it.

    https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/sidebar/oliver-stone-documentary-about-kazakhstans-former-leader-nazarbayev-was-funded-by-a-nazarbayev-foundation

  13. joe90 13

    A new public health index.

    A new wave of Yankee Candle reviews on Amazon complains the products lack scent. Does that suggest another COVID-19 surge is imminent? It’s hard to say, but with official case reports increasingly an undercount, people are looking to other forms of information to gauge trends.

    Jorge Caballero, a San Francisco Bay-based anesthesiologist who has tracked coronavirus-related trends on his popular Twitter account, tweeted screenshots Sunday of recent one-star Amazon reviews for Yankee scented candles, and asserted, “Yankee Candle reviews indicate that COVID is about surge again.”

    https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/covid-scent-loss-yankee-candle-amazon-reviews-20221011.html

  14. KJT 15

    Dame Anne Salmond: Seeing the wood for the trees (msn.com)

    Given that this is a new category in the ETS; that the ETS is already largely dedicated to funding pine trees; and that it would allow many farmers to gain an income from native bush around waterways and eroding gullies, this made perfect sense. That is, until a group of carbon farming lobbyists got busy and changed Cabinet’s minds for them – quite how, no one is certain.

    So much for our brave talk of ‘kaitiakitanga’ for native plants and animals. Once again, New Zealand’s ‘clean green image’ is being trashed.

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  • Trade relationship with China remains strong
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  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
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