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Open mike 12/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 12th, 2022 - 86 comments
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86 comments on “Open mike 12/11/2022 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Victory for the Ukrainians in Kherson. Amazing scenes as the population celebrates liberation.

    Take that Putin fan bois.

    • tsmithfield 1.1

      Yes. It makes a really great start to the day.

      A CNN reporter reporting from Kherson as Ukrainian troops march in for those of us who want to BIRG a bit.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.1.1

        This is obviously the beginning of the end for the Russian Imperialist invasion and occupation of Ukraine.

        Amazing, and joyous.

        The Russians have long signaled a false flag atrocity in Kherson that they can blame on Ukraine, with the purpose of inflaming Russian public opinion against Ukraine to shore up flagging support for this war

        The worry must be:

        Will the Russian imperialists, accept this defeat?
        The realisation of which will be the acceptance of the fact that this is the start of their inevitable total route from all of the occupied territories.
        Or will the Russian Federation imperialists try and rob this hard won victory of any celebration, with a false flag attack, and continue the war?

        • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1

          I guess that is a worry.

          There was some talk about the Russians blowing the Kakhovka dam. But they probably would have done that by now if they were going to, and it really isn't in their interests to do that anyway.

          The Russians could set up their artillery on the other side of the river and start pounding away at Kherson and its regions. But Ukraine now has longer range and more precise artillery, so could probably eliminate that threat fairly quickly.

          The biggest worry at the moment is that the Russians might be getting Iranian ballistic missiles (having used up most of their own). This would allow them to target Ukrainian power infrastructure again, and would be difficult to stop.

          Hence why the US really needs to start sending longer range ATACMs missiles to Ukraine so Ukraine can target the launch sites, and Russian airfields in the region.

            • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes, that is old news, from September. I have seen reports to indicate that things may have changed in that respect.

            • Jenny are we there yet 1.1.1.1.1.2

              As well as not supplying Ukraine with the long range Himars that Ukraine requested, The US vetoed Poland supplying Ukraine with MIG fighter jets.

              https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/us-rejects-poland-offer-to-send-mig-29-fighter-jets-to-ukraine

              I find it intriguing, that maybe you are starting to realise that Ukraine is not getting all the support from the US they would have got, if Ukraine was simply a Yankee puppet state, acting in America's interests, against Ukraine's own best interests.

              Sort of makes a lie of pro war trolls lie that this is a proxy war between the US and Russia. And not a war for national independence from a foreign invader.

              For goodness sake even Russia let the Vietnamese have MIG fighter jets to fight their invader.

              https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917

              And even though that war too was accused of being a proxy war between the super powers it too was a war for national independence from a foreign invader

              Sure the super powers like to see their rivals getting a black eye from one of the countries subject to their imperial expansion, and so will back their effort to liberate themselves. But that alone does not make it a proxy war.

              • mikesh

                The US has always refused to set up a "fly zone", presumably because they wanted to avoid a direct confrontation with Russia for fear of setting off a nuclear war. However they could have sent planes for the Ukrainians themselves to use. Why didn't they? Is it because the Russians would have no way of ascertaining who would have been flying them if the the did?

                And why does Poland need US permission to send planes anyway?

                • Barfly

                  Standard contract of weapons suppliers is that any on selling has to be approved by the country of the weapons manufacturer. We needed USA permission to sell our old Skyhawks (I think the deal fell through)

                  • joe90

                    Complicated by Poland's NATO membership.

                    But Western officials worry that if Ukrainian pilots go to a NATO country to pick up fighter jets and then fly them back into contested Ukrainian airspace, where they might have to engage with Russian fighters, Moscow will view the country they left from as a combatant and therefore fair game.

                    And NATO’s core tenet, spelled out in Article 5 of its charter, is that an attack on any member country is an attack on all, meaning all 30 member states would be obligated to join the fight.

                    “The intelligence community has assessed the transfer of MiG-29s to Ukraine may be mistaken as escalatory and could result in Russian reaction that could increase the prospects of a military escalation with NATO,” Pentagon spokesman John Kirby told reporters Wednesday.

                    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-reject-polands-plan-give-ukraine-soviet-era-fighter-jets-rcna19396

    • mauī 1.2

      Victory due to a Russian planned withdrawal, not bad ay. Just waiting for the imminent Russian army collapse like it was supposed to do after Kharkov.. right?

      For an area that voted to join Russia, my best guess would be that the populace is not celebrating as you depict it.

      • tsmithfield 1.2.1

        So, why did the Russians feel the need to withdraw in the first place.

        And, what was the referendum vote? Nearly 100% as I remember. So, if that result wasn't a complete fabrication as most countries believe, there should be huge protests greeting the Ukrainian arrival. I expect you will be able to post videos of that.

        • mauī 1.2.1.1

          Because their forces are consolidated on the eastern side of the river. Having a single outpost on the western side means its vulnerable. Makes sense to withdraw then right?

          I don't think the result was 100% in Kherson, but how would these countries know what an accurate result was if they're already anti-Russia to begin with. Also there is no doubt that the eastern and southern areas of Ukraine are generally pro Russian, this is backed up by their voting preference for Yanukovych pre-2014 when the situation there wasn't muddied by war and propaganda.

          • tsmithfield 1.2.1.1.1

            "I don't think the result was 100% in Kherson… "

            So you agree the result was bogus then? Voting at the point of a gun generally isn't very democratic.

            "Also there is no doubt that the eastern and southern areas of Ukraine are generally pro Russian,"

            Torturing and killing your "citizens" isn't usually great for patriotism.

            And, how long do you think the Russians will be able to hang there on the other side of the river, with the Ukrainians having longer range and more accurate artillery, especially HIMARS.

            • mauī 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Russia can hold on as long as it likes. They have a stable frontline, air superiority, drone superiority, tank superiority, artillery and missile superiority. They've been destroying NATO equipment en mass as they repel attacks, and each military aid package Ukraine receives from other countries just gets weaker and weaker.

      • Anne 1.2.2

        So, you don't understand what a rigged referendum is? I feel sorry for you. It really must hurt having a brain so easy to manipulate.

      • Tony Veitch 1.2.3

        I can't understand Russian reasoning (!!!) Kherson controls the canal which waters the Crimean Peninsula. If Ukraine cuts that off, Crimea must fall.

        What on earth is going on in Putin's head?

      • Sanctuary 1.2.4

        lol what part of "retreat" don't you understand?

  2. Francesca 2

    "Biden said he decided to deny U.S. aircraft to guarantee Ukraine’s skies because, “We’re not going to get into a third world war, taking on Russian aircraft and directly engage.” In a reference to Ukraine’s request for the longer-range Army Tactical Missile System, made by Lockheed Martin, Biden said he’s denied the Ukrainians such missiles, “because I’m not looking for them to start bombing Russian territory.”"

    https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2022/11/10/biden-ukraine-aid-will-keep-flowing-even-through-a-gop-led-house/

    • Jenny are we there yet 2.1

      – Biden said he’s denied the Ukrainians such missiles, “because I’m not looking for them to start bombing Russian territory.”" –

      Makes a lie of the Russian troll farm claim that this is a 'US/Natzo' proxy war to destroy Russia, Instead of what it is, a war for independence from an expansionist imperial power.

      • Jenny are we there yet 2.1.1

        Growth and expansion is innate to capitalism.

        Unfortunately for the Russian Federation, (and China), they have come late to the imperialist carve up of the world.

        And as their growth economies butt up against the established global powers, (which are having their own struggles with 'growth'), war is the inevitable result.

        Infinite growth on a finite planet is not possible War and biosphere collapse are the result.

    • tsmithfield 2.2

      You would be surprised how things change. A lot of stuff Ukraine is using now was denied them at the start of the war.

    • tsmithfield 2.3

      Either this is an old man moment, or Biden has let the cat out of the bag:

      https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-joe-bidens-claim-himars-given-ukraine-have-160-mile-range-1758739

      Biden said there are 600 mile range rockets for Himars and 160 mile rockets, and that they haven't given Ukraine the 600 mile versions.

    • Sanctuary 2.4

      I wpould bet dollars to donuts the US has provided a limited number of ATACMS to Ukraine.

  3. weston 3

    Funniest event of the week for me was Zelensky picking up the Oscar !!!!

    From the Evening Standard

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0Hh3RZJwuwo

  4. Adrian 4

    Yes its a funny old war.. it appears as though once again Russia has come to Ukraines aid by donating huge stockpiles of weaponry. Nice one Vlad.

  5. I agree with Jan Logie on this one. If it's too dangerous for Fisheries observers to work on these small ships – because they drift with no active watch, and are at risk of collision; then those vessels should not be eligible for or be granted NZ fisheries quota.

    Maritime NZ says that watchkeeping is a requirement, but FNZ has no capacity to enforce it. Yanking the fishing quota would be a fine enforcement method.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/130411297/fisheries-observers-removed-over-health-and-safety-fears

    • Stuart Munro 5.1

      Maritime NZ should be deticketing anyone failing to keep a watch.

      But they're useless – only good for prosecuting the survivors of things like White Island.

      They're a disgrace to the profession.

    • Terrible for those small business owners (it's in the neighbourhood for me – so I know the businesses concerned). Many of them (e.g. the Malaysian cafe or Subway) won't have anything significantly 'saleable' on the premises, or any cash – so it's pure love of destruction driving these criminals.

      Not excusing them when they do target shops to steal to order – but at least it's understandable.

  6. Anker 7

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/aut-nursing-students-cared-for-convicts-put-in-dangerous-situations-on-placement-student/BYW4KOTVVREKTCW464KVUMZKP4/

    Something is going very wrong with nursing training. We will lose these trainees nurses before they even are registered nurses.

    Student nurses to be paid well for placements, petrol money, car parking would be a good start.

    Dumping them in potential unsafe situations not o.k.

  7. Sanctuary 8

    China has peaked, Russia is being routed, Trump is finished – there is hope in the world.

  8. Joe90 9

    When you appoint a profiteer to run your wars.

    How General Surovikin helped Putin and oligarch Gennady Timchenko enrich themselves in Syria.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1590740802116145154.html

    (English subtitles)

    • joe90 9.1

      When you lose Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin…

    • tsmithfield 9.2

      That Russian general looks like something straight out of an Austin Powers movie. I expect to see a mini-me show up before long. LOL.

  9. Poission 10

    Semper Augustus harvest as Crypto economy shrinks to small economy.

    FBX in Chapter 11 bankruptcy as associated Zombies,fall over.

    • Grey Area 11.1

      A bit cryptic.

      • Stuart Munro 11.1.1

        Needs to be – he means rolling over to give Vlad a last quarter win.

        • adam 11.1.1.1

          Say's Stuart Munro, your one of the worst spreading pro war propaganda.

          But like all warmongering trolls, your only defence is to smear anyone who is anti- war, as putin puppet.

          Sad man, just fucking sad.

          • Stuart Munro 11.1.1.1.1

            No need to smear you – you chose that hill to die on.

            Thinking folk aren't too keen to get behind murderous despots – why are you?

            • adam 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Think you better put up where I supported a despot, or shut the fuck up with you bullshit lies and trolling.

              • Stuart Munro

                Do you deny supporting Putin, or do you deny that he's a despot?

                • adam

                  But wait, you double down with your lies and bullshit.

                  You really are a total fucking loser.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Oh, you're offended? After calling everyone else warmongers?

                    Wow solipsism – so hypocrisy.

                    But of course you didn’t answer the question. What are you trying to hide Adam? Do you deny an uncritical admiration for Putin, even after all his crimes?

                    • adam

                      You just can't stop can you. Lies, misdirection and making shit up.

                      Is the president of Indonesia a Putin puppet, or uncritical of his admiration of Putin now as well? In that he is calling for what I'm calling for. In your world obviously that must be the case.

                      Can't think that the war is wasteful, otherwise your a Putin supporter in Stuart Munro's small little world.

                      So let me ask once again, prove I support a despot, just once, anywhere on this site. One example. You must have something with which to back your claims?

                      No, nothing, then may I suggest, you're full of shit.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You know, if your constant ad homs did not demonstrate what a shriveled husk of a human being you were, I might be offended.

                    Answer the question, Putin poppet.

                    Do you deny you support him, or do you deny he's a despot?

                    Come clean – speak your truth as you see it and stop slinking away like some cowardly postmodern poseur.

                    • adam

                      Now your back to calling me a putin puppet – how very droll.

                      Can you read? Obviously via your comments, comprehension is a major problem for you.

                      Let me make it simpler for you – your boy Zelenskyy is a dick representing a corrupt and fubar oligarchy. On the other side is another dick representing a corrupt and fubar oligarchy. Both of which are war warmongers getting civilians killed to boost their egos.

                      Both swinging dicks around, rather than sorting out a settlement.

                      But then again, you might find that hard to comprehend. Someone who loathes all sides in this conflict.

                      Let me reiterate because of your inability to think, my position has not changed from day one of this war. This war is stupid, and should end before it spills out into something worse.

                      Leaving me with one conclusion, Stuart Munro you are just another tool for spreading hate and war.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Zelenskyy is a dick representing a corrupt and fubar oligarchy. On the other side is another dick representing a corrupt and fubar oligarchy.

                    Ah the old false equivalence – how original.

                    Invasion – everybody does it, right?

                    Except, my little cabbage, Ukraine does not.

                    It's difficult keeping international politics straight I suppose – we just expected too much of you.

                    • adam

                      Ah the old false equivalence – how original.

                      No prizes for seconds..

                      As I don't support rulers who use civilians as human shields, pass anti worker laws, arrest and detain people for trying to leave the country. I'm not shocked you give them a free pass.

                      The Ukraine Oligarchs are proving themselves to be far right Anti-worker assholes, so I see why you support them.

                      At this point I'm not surprised to see you cluching your pearls. It's all you got left.

                    • RedLogix

                      @Adam

                      Millions of ordinary Ukrainians are putting body and soul on the line to defend their nation; either on the front or in support. The astonishing morale and commitment of their military is well understood as one of the key reasons why they have outperformed all pre-war expectations this past year.

                      Your shameful false equivalence spits on their sacrifice.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    As I don't support rulers who use civilians as human shields, pass anti worker laws, arrest and detain people for trying to leave the country. I'm not shocked you give them a free pass.

                    Oh but you do – you consistently take the side of Putin like some soulless soviet aparatchik.

                    Putin's regime surpasses all your unsupported (as usual) allegations against Ukraine by orders of magnitude.

                    But you consistently ignore any evidence that does not support your inane prejudices, and thus you have become a Judas goat, a flagrant fascist supporter running agit prop against a Left site.

                    Shameless.

                    • adam

                      you consistently take the side of Putin like some soulless soviet aparatchik.

                      See your back to lies again, I don't take the side of Putin and if you read anything I said, rather than fall into know it all, fucktard mod. You'd comprehend that.

                      Your Bush like, your with us or you against us logic is fubar.

                      https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-labour-law-wrecks-workers-rights/

                      https://www.solidaritycenter.org/more-attacks-on-rights-of-ukrainian-workers/

                      https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/07/19/zrjy-j19.html

                      https://www.dw.com/en/how-ukrainian-men-try-to-get-around-the-ban-to-leave-the-country/a-62529639

                      Totally supported facts just to counter all the propaganda you have been spoon feed. .

                      How about you grow up Stuart Munro and realise this is probably the most propagandized war in history. And knowing the truth is quite difficult.

                      I'm calling for an end to the war, a negotiated settlement to stop the insanity. And what do I get from you and the other war monger fuck trads on this site – YOUR A FUCKING PUTIN PUPPET – shut the fuck up.

                      How about you go on line and read what the people who actually support putin are saying, it's very far from what I'm saying.

                      War never helps working people. It only enriches weapons makers and other war profiteering scum. They must be laughing their heads off at how simple it is to manipulate people like you.

                    • weka []

                      tone down the abuse please adam.

                    • weka

                      please stop the abuse and personal attacks. If the conversation has gotten to the point where this is all you can do, then maybe it's time to step away and focus on something else.

                    • adam

                      @ RedLogix

                      You can't call out bad leaders, because sacrifice….

                      You really are just an out and out jingoist these days Red.

                    • adam

                      Come on weka, I've been called a putin puppet over and over with no fucking evidence that I am. It's tiresome.

                      I'm sick to fucking death of everytime I argue for a settlement to this conflict, I'm attacked for supporting putin. Or some other bullshit.

                      I'll stop now, as you obviously can't support peace on this web site.

                    • weka []

                      Well I’ve also just told Stuart to pull his head in, so I’m not sure that is quite true.

                      I don’t read every comment on TS. I don’t like reading the war debate, because I find them tedious. You can always reply to me somewhere on site with a link pointing out that someone is lying about your views. You know me well enough that I have a very low tolerance for people making shit up about others and I will act if I see that happening.

                      I do have limits on my time, so getting my attention is a better bet than taking the chance that I will read something off my own bat.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You are called a Putin dupe repeatedly because you repeat his propaganda, and link his propaganda sites ad nauseum.

                    There is no sign of balance, or thought, or anything resembling morality – but you seem to imagine that your ill-founded reckons are not merely worthy of our attention, but are more persuasive and informed than those of the people on the ground.

                    The people on the ground are in this instance the Ukrainians. They want self-determination – but your version of political morality is so empty that you appear to believe that they must instead suffer the oppressive rule of Russian kleptocracy.

                    As a apologist for that regime, and a consistent and untiring enemy of Ukraine, you have no claim to enlightened values, nor to any pretention to the Left.

                    You're just a latter day Jean Brodie who's swapped Putin for Mussolini.

        • joe90 11.1.1.2

          Eric Blair had pacifism's number.

          Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist.

          https://archive.ph/XxZj#selection-59.0-65.129

          • RedLogix 11.1.1.2.1

            From your link:

            Pacifism. Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with. In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.

            I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force. But though not much interested in the ‘theory’ of pacifism, I am interested in the psychological processes by which pacifists who have started out with an alleged horror of violence end up with a marked tendency to be fascinated by the success and power of Nazism. Even pacifists who wouldn’t own to any such fascination are beginning to claim that a Nazi victory is desirable in itself.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.1.2.2

            If you judge a man by the company he keeps, then Blair was all over the place.

            A Brief History of Cranks
            On bearded fruit juice drinkers, nudists, and sandal-wearers

            Socialism,” George Orwell famously wrote in The Road to Wigan Pier (1936), draws towards it ”with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist and feminist in England.” His tirade against such “cranks” is memorably extended in other passages of the book to include “vegetarians with wilting beards,” the “outer-suburban creeping Jesus” eager to begin his yoga exercises, and ”that dreary tribe of high-minded women and sandal-wearers and bearded fruit-juice drinkers who come flocking towards the smell of ‘progress’ like bluebottles to a dead cat.

            Pacifists get a bad rap in wartime, but they're not all quaking in their sandals.

            Quakers
            Though a small religious movement, the Society of Friends (Quakers) organized relief and advocated rescue in Europe before, during, and after the Holocaust. The American Friends Service Committee became an important part of a rescue network helping refugees. The group worked in French internment camps, hid Jewish children, and assisted thousands of Jewish and non-Jewish refugees with immigration and resettlement to the United States.

            Early Quakers were among the leaders of the anti-slavery movement in the United States. Quakers are also pacifists, responding to wartime calls for service seeking out non-combat roles such driving ambulances or serving in conscientious objector work camps.

            For their relief efforts, their work with refugees, and for their overall promotion of peace, the American Friends Service Committee and their British counterparts, the Friends Service Council, were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1947.

            Beating the peace drum isn't always a pointless / thankless task – takes all kinds.

            https://quaker.org/legacy/minnfm/peace/integrity_of_german_friends_duri.htm

            • Belladonna 11.1.1.2.2.1

              Family story. My grandfather went to WW1 and served in the trenches. Family history is (he'd died before I was born) that he and his mates had the utmost respect for the Quaker ambulance drivers and medics on the front lines – 'they risked their lives every day to save others – without even the means to protect themselves'.

              OTOH, they had nothing but contempt for the 'Conshies' – regarding them as cowards.

            • millsy 11.1.1.2.2.2

              If Orwell was alive today, he would be regarded as 'anti-woke'.

          • adam 11.1.1.2.3

            So if you don't kill Russians, and support the killing of Russians, your a fascist now.

            Your arguments are getting desperate joe90

            And sound somewhat like those who support Putin and co. Which I think the word I’m look for is…..

        • Grey Area 11.1.1.3

          I guessed as much. The huge waste of human life and destruction of infrastructure profoundly saddens me but there is one way to end this – for the Russians leave to Ukraine. The negotiations about reparations to rebuild Ukraine can begin then.

  10. Grey Area 12

    Looks like we're seeing the return of plague ships. Why in the age of Covid do people think going on a cruise is a good idea? Humans I guess.

    Cruise ship with 800 cases docks in Sydney.

  11. Poission 13

    FTX after filing chapter 11 bankruptcy, freezing accounts,and freezing transactions,has now been hacked with a substantive number of irregularities ( 260-600m$ into the ether)

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