Open mike 12/04/2015

142 comments on “Open mike 12/04/2015 ”

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1. philj 1

   12 April 2015 at 7:33 am

   Visiting Auckland. Its really smokin’. Construction sites, motorways and trucks everywhere …. and the traffic…. Its a beautiful place if only we got the public transport and housing issues sorted. And so cosmopolitan…. I just hope the juggernaut doesn’t crash. Glad to be leaving.
2. Skinny 2

   12 April 2015 at 8:56 am

   Blue/Green or Red/Green the male Co Leader contest should reveal all says Hide;

   http://m.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11431240

   I actually think Hughes has campaigned well during the contest. Good luck to the Left contenders and pull ya heads in to the new breed.
   • felix 2.1

     12 April 2015 at 9:06 am

     And in his second sentence, Rodney demonstrates that he doesn’t understand the very first thing about Green philosophies.

     “Question: are the Greens green or red? If green, they will open up the possibility of supporting National “

     I’m not going to read the rest of it, if it’s based on such a false premise it’s worthless.
     • tc 2.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 9:35 am

       Just another shill looking to get back into more troughs like the good old yellow jacketed tuna tin car days.
       • Skinny 2.1.1.1

         12 April 2015 at 9:48 am

         +1 Haha that old yellow jacket which reminds me of last week.

         My partner dropped off some clothes to the SPCA store. I went for a look, sure Hides old crap yellow jacket was there on a rack ‘special price $1’
     • weka 2.1.2

       12 April 2015 at 10:00 am

       +1 Felix. Hide’s views on the GP are worth about the same as Hooton’s opinions on Labour.
3. Jamie 3

   12 April 2015 at 10:01 am

   All you commies dreaming of a revolution might just get one…

   https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2015/03/15/bracken-switzerland-america-and-new-zealand-the-kiwi-is-low-hanging-fruit/

   Whether it’s quite the workers paradise y’all dreaming of is another matter

   In other news Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble said that armed citizens in open societies need to be able to defend themselves and others against terrorist attacks.

   “Societies have to think about how they’re going to approach the problem (of terrorism),” Noble told ABC. “One is to say we want an armed citizenry”

   Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/11/interpol-chief-citizens-need-guns/
   • Stephanie Rodgers 3.1

     12 April 2015 at 10:53 am

     A 2013 article from WorldNetDaily? You must be joking.
     • Jamie 3.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 11:34 am

       Did ya bother to read them Steph
       • te reo putake 3.1.1.1

         12 April 2015 at 11:42 am

         What would be the point, Jamie? More guns is not the answer.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.1

           12 April 2015 at 11:46 am

           Jamie wants to kill people, so turns to a violent website for validation.
           • Lindsey 3.1.1.1.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 11:55 am

             Never anything useful in WorldNutDaily – except prhaps a few laughs.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               12 April 2015 at 11:58 am

               There’s plenty there if you’re looking for violent fantasies to feed your violent urges. It’s easy to laugh at it, and all history shows that James et al are more than serious.
           • Jamie 3.1.1.1.1.2

             12 April 2015 at 12:03 pm

             Some anonymous bloke doesn’t like the link I provided. Fair enough

             http://www.infowars.com/interpol-chief-arm-citizens-globally-to-prevent-terror-attacks/

             http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-westgate-interpol-chief-ponders-armed-citizenry/story?id=20637341

             http://beforeitsnews.com/survival/2014/04/interpol-backs-second-amendment-best-defense-against-terrorism-armed-citizens-2516734.html

             I can keep going if you like

             My point being this

             If y’all think the Yanks, the ANZUS Treaty, or the NZ Defence Force will be able to protect y’all you would be thinking wrong.

             Kiwis are gonna have to do it themselves

             Best to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best – us Kiwis only got that half right
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               12 April 2015 at 12:14 pm

               Get a grip. The most likely victim of a firearm stored in your own home is yourself or a family member.
               • Jamie …

                 12 April 2015 at 12:32 pm

                 “Kumbaya” – Colonial Rawshark

                 Guess these people didn’t get the memo

                 Most of the 147 victims of a terror attack on a Kenyan university on Thursday died execution-style as they lined up waiting for their turn to be shot, a senior Kenyan government source has told The Telegraph.

                 Some students were killed as they spoke to their parents on the telephone.

                 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11427881
                 • Colonial Rawshark …

                   12 April 2015 at 1:06 pm

                   I get it. You’re a fucking genius. Apart from military instability in Kenya that has nothing the fuck to do with NZ, tell me, in the western world, what has the general result of having students carrying fire arms into schools and university campus been? Virginia Tech ring a bell?
                   • Jamie …

                     12 April 2015 at 2:04 pm

                     Maureen Manyengo, a 21-year-old Christian from western Kenyan who was training to be a teacher, described how she hid inside her wardrobe after seeing several friends killed.

                     “I could hear the attackers telling my friends, ‘Do not worry, we will kill you, but we will die too’,” she said.

                     She said the terrorists also told the cowering students: “We are not bad guys, we are just here to make your Easter Holiday better.”

                     Reuben Nyaora, an aid worker who was among the first to enter the university after the terrorists’ final clash with Kenyan special forces late on Thursday afternoon, described seeing women rise from among the corpses covered in blood but unscathed.

                     “I have seen many things, but nothing like that,” said Mr Nyaora. “There were bodies everywhere in execution lines, we saw people whose heads had been blown off, bullet wounds everywhere. It was a grisly mess.”
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 2:23 pm

                     Using fear as a tool, that’s all you have.

                     Just read up on the school shooting incidents at Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, the militarisation of US schools, school staff and teachers, and just have a think about why you are advocating for NZ to go down this deadly and dangerous road.
                   • Jamie …

                     12 April 2015 at 2:43 pm

                     I am afraid….Afraid for New Zealand and it’s people future.

                     If you ain’t afraid you’re either lying or an ignorant fool.

                     I note nothing from you about our defence policy in the event of WW3.

                     The Yanks and the Aussies will not be able to protect NZ when Pearl Harbour gets nuked(don’t tell me it can’t happen, they said Singapore couldn’t fall and that got rolled in a month)

                     -on a side note there goes that traitor John Keys mansion in Hawaii

                     -on another side note if you bothered to read the first report you will see it says we should model our defence strategy on the Swiss where all male/female adult citizens are armed/trained in the use of firearms – not giving mentally unstable high school kids strung out on psychiatric drugs access to firearms

                     Any realistic suggestions on your part would be appreciated coz singing kumbaya just doesn’t cut it for this callsign
                   • McFlock …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:05 pm

                     ooo, Jamie, you’re ever so butch…
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:12 pm

                     Jamie, I understand very well the militaristic outlook of the Twelve Colonies of the Battlestar Galactica universe. I also understand that it fucked them over, and in the end, they decided to give up their weapons and their technology.

                     Now you originally spoke of arming ordinary citizens, you didn’t speak of compulsory national service or of beefing up the NZ defence forces to be better suited to different contingencies.

                     And to make your point that arming ordinary citizens was the way to go, you decided that a school shooting in Kenya was a good illustrative example.

                     Now please make yourself clear – are you intending a discussion where the NZ defence forces has to cope with a post WWIII nuclear war situation, or are you intending a discussion on a situation where terrorists might kill people in a school like in Kenya or in the Beslan school siege and having armed Kiwi citizens in that school might be of help.

                     Or do you just want to mix and match these scenarios randomly to suit.

                     NZ already has over 1M firearms floating around. What more do you want.

                     Any realistic suggestions on your part would be appreciated coz singing kumbaya just doesn’t cut it for this callsign

                     Don’t be a condescending little prick. I am not a pacifist, I do think NZ needs to overhaul its diplomatic and defence postures and capabilities, and I don’t know what the fuck “kumbaya” is supposed to mean.
                   • Jamie …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:29 pm

                     “I don’t know what the fuck “kumbaya” is supposed to mean.” C.R

                     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

                     “Are you intending a discussion where the NZ defence forces has to cope with a post WWIII nuclear war situation, or are you intending a discussion on a situation where terrorists might kill people in a school like in Kenya or in the Beslan school siege and having armed Kiwi citizens in that school might be of help.” C.R

                     We should be prepared for both scenarios although invasion/occupation by the Chinese communist would be the more serious of the two, don’t you think???

                     -Unlikely they would nuke us, they need our land to feed their population

                     I got to go unfortunately, maybe Iprent as a former soldier with a basic understanding of military affairs can comment???

                     I’ll leave y’all with something to think about…

                     “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” Alesksan Solzhenitsyn

                     I don’t know if stuff like that happened on battle star galactica

                     Of course it will never happen down here in Gods Own…right???
                   • ropata …

                     12 April 2015 at 6:29 pm

                     Jamie you delusional idiot, I hope you don’t own any firearms.

                     1. The US has far more gun deaths than any developed country
                     2. US police killed more civilians in March than the UK managed in 100 years
                     3. Deaths by firearms set to exceed US road toll this year
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 7:07 pm

                     Yeah in the US you are 55x more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist. And I suspect if you are unfortunate enough to be poor and black and young, the ratio is more like 250:1
       • Stephanie Rodgers 3.1.1.2

         12 April 2015 at 6:58 pm

         At the risk of repeating myself, “A 2013 article from WorldNetDaily? You must be joking.”

         And protip for future diversion commenting: it looks a liiiiiiittle hypocritical to accuse other people of being “anonymous” while commenting under a pseudonym. It’s also against site policy and puts you at risk of being banned:
         http://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#banning
         • Jamie 3.1.1.2.1

           13 April 2015 at 9:39 am

           If you scroll up I sent through other links Stephanie…Or you can try google if you think I’m lying

           “And protip for future diversion commenting: it looks a liiiiiiittle hypocritical to accuse other people of being “anonymous” while commenting under a pseudonym.”Stephanie

           Here’s a few of me doing my thing….

           https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/ttpa-read-my-lips-no/

           https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2014/12/06/baptism-of-fire-lifesavers-and-heartbreakers-pt1/

           Shoot the meesenger all y’all like but the reality is the world situation is deteriorating on every front, militarily, economically, environmentally, morally, socially. You only have to turn the telly on for 5 minutes to realise sh*t is outta hand and is gonna get a hell of a lot worse. US power is waning and they will not be able to protect us. You don’t have to be an expert to realise that

           If y’all read the initial report, it recommends modelling our defence on the Swiss system – not the US system ropata

           https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2015/03/15/bracken-switzerland-america-and-new-zealand-the-kiwi-is-low-hanging-fruit/

           Now I’m sure the politicians, the defence brass and the experts will say there’s nothing to worry about and y’all might share their optimism…..I do not
   • Pasupial 3.2

     12 April 2015 at 3:37 pm

     Jamie

     That is; word for word, (apart from some paragraphing breaks) the exact same comment you made 6 minutes previously on TDB’s Open Mic. I wonder where else you are spamming your delusive rant today?

     Macskasy had the best reponse to this bullshit:

     Lol! Love the satire.! 😀

     http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/04/12/the-daily-blog-open-mic-sunday-12th-april-2015/
4. The Chairman 4

   12 April 2015 at 10:19 am

   First they came for Campbell Live, next is the 6pm news

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/67699811/tv3-to-reduce-sunday-6pm-news-bulletin-to-30-minutes
   • Draco T Bastard 4.1

     12 April 2015 at 12:00 pm

     Just saw that on RNZ:

     TV3 is cutting its Sunday night news hour in half.
     From May the 24th the programme will run from 6:00pm to 6:30pm instead of to 7:00pm.
     The current-affairs programme 3D – formerly known as 3rd Degree – will fill the second 30 minutes.
     The head of news at MediaWorks, Mark Jennings, said people were increasingly time-poor and the network believed 30 minutes of news plus 30 minutes of current affairs was a winning formula.

     Just how much BS do these people think we’ll swallow?
     • Atiawa 4.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 2:16 pm

       The concept of something “newsworthy” for NZ free to view television is increasingly a sports news item leading the broadcast.
       “Former All Black incensed that his treasured rugby jerseys stolen. Blah blah blah…………..”
       Then they will likely replay the item during the sports news section.
       It seems that the average Joe Blow knows more about the All Blacks, the NBA, English & European football, whose not going to Andy Murray’s wedding, corrupt sports betting rings etc etc than they know about local & national events and concerns, whose killing, kidnapping and generally pissing or ripping us off.
       And maybe in our shallow little ponds its the way Mr & Mrs B like it.
     • tc 4.1.2

       12 April 2015 at 3:35 pm

       He’s right in a way, and this wouldn’t be an issue IF there were no commercials and a focus on actual newsworthy items in that hour.

       Works just fine elsewhere as a public broadcasting model and last time I looked media winks was not even a decent commercial one run by a smarmy banksta with no broadcasting experience.
     • mary_a 4.1.3

       12 April 2015 at 5:14 pm

       @ Draco T Bastard (4.1) Also heard it on RNZ today. And my first thought was I bet the reduced news we do get on Natsy manipulated TV3 will be sanitized in favour of the status quo. All for the good of the country of course … blah blah blah … We will tell you what you need to hear, see and know … !

       I think I might switch over to the cartoon network when the 6pm TV news is on now. Far more fun and much more believable than the tripe TVNZ and TV3 will be dishing up at that time!
   • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 4.2

     12 April 2015 at 2:27 pm

     Well, I did raise the question yesterday morning (http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11042015/#comment-998440).
5. Paul 5

   12 April 2015 at 10:21 am

   Climate Change

   1. Ocean acidification and Mass extinction

   Otago University’s Dr Matthew Clarkson says ocean acidification triggered massive species extinction: a wake up call to the perils of a changing climate today.
   http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20174405

   2. Gulf Stream is slowing down faster than ever

   Scientists believe that the huge volumes of freshwater flowing into the North Atlantic from the rapidly melting ice cap of Greenland have slowed down the ocean “engine” that drives the Gulf Stream from the Caribbean towards north-west Europe, bringing heat equivalent to the output of a million power stations.

   http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gulf-stream-is-slowing-down-faster-than-ever-scientists-say-10128700.html

   3. Californian drought
   Snow pack in California this year, which historically has renewed the state’s water reservoirs each spring, has been measured at just 8% of usual levels.

   http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/05/california-governor-drought-climate-change-dianne-feinstein

   4. Top hurricane expert: Climate change influenced Tropical Cyclone Pam

   http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/03/18/top-hurricane-expert-climate-change-influenced-tropical-cyclone-pam/

   5. Climate change forces Christchurch mussel plant to close

   http://www.3news.co.nz/business/climate-change-forces-christchurch-mussel-plant-to-close-2015040919#ixzz3X2f8oy8x

   And our New Zealand government is in denial.
   ‘NZ’s greenhouse gas emissions soar

   The numbers
   • 42% rise in net emissions of greenhouse gases between 1990 and 2013.
   • 21% rise in gross emissions which exclude carbon flows relating to forestry and land use change.
   • 5% Government’s target for reduction from 1990 levels by 2020.’

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11430894
   • marty mars 5.1

     12 April 2015 at 12:22 pm

     Thanks for pulling that together Paul – saw this the other day http://www.musther.net/nzslr/
     • dave brown 5.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 1:51 pm

       McPherson has been putting this stuff together and regularly updating it for years.
       Its a one stop shop on climate catastrophe and near term extinction.
       http://guymcpherson.com/2014/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/
6. Penny Bright 6

   12 April 2015 at 10:36 am

   Does the Labour Party have policy supporting the establishment of an Independent Commission Against Corruption?

   Anyone know?

   Penny Bright
   • te reo putake 6.1

     12 April 2015 at 10:44 am

     No. Not much call for one in a country currently ranked one of the least corrupt nations on earth.

     Mind you, I guess it depends on how you define corrupt. Some folk might say that accepting all the benefits of living in a large, modern city, with civic amenities, public facilities and social housing provided by the local council, but refusing to contribute a fair share personally could be seen as morally corrupt, but I can’t really comment.
     • les 6.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 11:04 am

       some might also say that accountability,tranparency and integrity are the reasonable expectation of any person contributing to sustain those benefits.
     • The Murphey 6.1.2

       12 April 2015 at 11:13 am

       Q. Are you serious ?
       • te reo putake 6.1.2.1

         12 April 2015 at 11:16 am

         A: Are you Sirius?
         • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.1.1

           12 April 2015 at 12:07 pm

           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBQalkIeE7s
   • Colonial Rawshark 6.2

     12 April 2015 at 11:05 am

     TRP misses the point of course – to him, you’d only bother with an “anti-corruption commission” only when corruption got bad.

     Of course, the point of an anti-corruption commission is actually to deny the practice of corruption a chance to get bedded in. It is there as a watch dog on those in power – which ever party them may be from.

     Everything from government contracts being awarded to family members of politicians, to the Sky City convention centre deal, to RMA reforms benefitting certain property developers or the PM’s office using Parliamentary Services staff to organise politically advantageous smear campaigns.
     • te reo putake 6.2.1

       12 April 2015 at 11:12 am

       Um, that’s not the role of anti-corruption commissions, CV. They’re investigative, not preventative. Maybe that misunderstanding is why you missed my point!

       As les points out, accountability,tranparency and integrity are the reasonable expectation of any person contributing to sustain those benefits. But if you are a person who doesn’t contribute and simply bludges off those who do, you’re not in a great moral position to call for such a commission.
       • The Chairman 6.2.1.1

         12 April 2015 at 11:41 am

         @ te reo putake

         Being investigative deters, thus helps prevent others taking the corrupt path.
         • te reo putake 6.2.1.1.1

           12 April 2015 at 11:52 am

           But that assumes there is corruption in the first place. I really doubt there is, at least using the usual definition of corruption. The occasional bent copper, or earthquake contractor, but that’s about it.

           And the deterrent factor is probably minor anyway, if it’s measurable at all. All those ICAC meetings in Oz didn’t do anything to stop further corruption in the Queensland and NSW Police forces. They exposed some of what had occurred and some of the individuals involved, but really, all they changed was the methods of the next generation of corrupt coppers.

           To go back to the definition, if we don’t correctly name the problem, we aren’t going to get a good outcome. It’s anti-democratic behaviour that needs to be highlighted or investigated.
           • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.1.1.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 12:00 pm

             But that assumes there is corruption in the first place. I really doubt there is,

             Why do you wish to avoid at all costs the further examination on and limitations to, the conduct of those in power?

             – The Sky City convention centre deal
             – the Media Works loan/Campbell Live cancellation
             – the gifting of government contracts to friends and relations of politicians
             – plum jobs for mates in key positions of power (GCSB etc)
             – High paying EQC jobs for unqualified friends and family
             – the list goes on

             Now you may wish to keep turning a blind eye to the kinds of shady deals which we have been discussing in depth on The Standard every day, but others will not.

             And the deterrent factor is probably minor anyway, if it’s measurable at all.

             I find it shocking that you are repeating old neoliberal tropes making the case for cutting red tape, implementing deregulation and the oxymoronic idea of ‘self regulation.’
           • The Chairman 6.2.1.1.1.2

             12 April 2015 at 12:11 pm

             @ te reo putake

             This (in the link below) makes a mockery of your assumption.

             http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11342429

             The deterrent factor is totally void when no authority is investigating and insuring people are held to account.

             Sentences also play a deterrent role.
           • The Fairy Godmother 6.2.1.1.1.3

             12 April 2015 at 1:07 pm

             I think that we need to define what corruption is. I believe that it is about missing the point or the purpose of our social services, ammenities etc. I believe they should be for the good of the community and everyone should be able to have a decent life, fed, watered sheltered etc. Neoliberalism corrupts all this and it becomes about the money, not the people. So agencies can’t help because its not in their budget. CEO’s etc want to turn a profit for shareholders. Auckland council cant’ be stuffed paying all its workers a living wage even though top earners in the organisations are on huge salaries. that is corruption
           • Macro 6.2.1.1.1.4

             12 April 2015 at 6:43 pm

             Good God! We currently have the most corrupt government in our history and you say there is no need to investigate! We just saw a Government try to buy an election. We have a Prime Minister, and his Cabinet Ministers lying left right and centre. We have Cabinet Ministers misusing their position for their own advantage, and the list goes on….
             Unbelievable.
             And you wonder why people have turned off Labour?
             • Draco T Bastard …

               12 April 2015 at 6:51 pm

               +1111
             • marty mars …

               12 April 2015 at 7:26 pm

               + 1 Good comment Macro
             • Chooky …

               12 April 2015 at 11:01 pm

               +100 Macro…and now they are trying to destroy any possible examination and reporting of their corruption by taking out the media…eg. news reporting and Campbell Live
       • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.1.2

         12 April 2015 at 11:54 am

         But if you are a person who doesn’t contribute and simply bludges off those who do, you’re not in a great moral position to call for such a commission.

         Ah yes, the lefty middle class buying into the neoliberal framing of bludgers and parasites on society. Great.
         • te reo putake 6.2.1.2.1

           12 April 2015 at 12:27 pm

           You do know what (who) I’m referring to, right?
           • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.1.2.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 12:31 pm

             I believe there’s a term for attacking the person carrying the message.
             • weka …

               12 April 2015 at 12:40 pm

               +1 Hard to see how your antipathy towards Penny is relevant to the topic TRP.
     • Skinny 6.2.2

       12 April 2015 at 11:17 am

       +1 a rather strange comment from him indeed.
       Plenty of corrupt practices going on here I suggest TRP read Dirty Politics for starters.
       • te reo putake 6.2.2.1

         12 April 2015 at 11:36 am

         Not strange in the least, skinny. We are the second least corrupt country in the world according to Transparency International. We do not routinely bribe public officials, pay backhanders to get things done, award Government contracts in the expectation of personal gain etc.

         To be blunt, the reason the DP book is fascinating is because it exposes unusual behaviour. The unprecedented nature of what has occurred under this Government is the exception that proves the rule. Which is, that generally, we are an ethical and bribe free country. So a corruption commission would be a waste of time. It wouldn’t find any actual corruption, because money hasn’t changed hands (WO/The PM’s Office possibly excepted).

         An Ethical Behaviour in Politics Commission, on the other hand …
         • The Chairman 6.2.2.1.1

           12 April 2015 at 11:45 am

           @ te reo putake

           We won’t find any such corruption if we have no one investigating it.
           • te reo putake 6.2.2.1.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 11:57 am

             But we do, TC. The Police, Fisheries, the SFO, the IRD, MBIE, and a host of other agencies, even Parliament itself, can investigate allegations of corruption.

             What would a Corruption Commission actually investigate? The vibe?
             • The Chairman …

               12 April 2015 at 12:16 pm

               @ te reo putake

               The case linked above for a start. Who is investigating that?
           • Visubversaviper 6.2.2.1.1.2

             12 April 2015 at 11:58 am

             Penny Bright has had 7 years of “investigation” and turned up a big fat Zero.
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               12 April 2015 at 12:07 pm

               And that proves that John Key hasn’t cut deals with Hollywood industry on Kim Dotcom? Or that the Sky City convention centre deal was exactly as it was presented to us? Or that there was no quid pro quo for loaning Media Works $43M? Or that the Sabin/Osborne/Key situation was all above board.

               You may not like Penny Bright, but don’t let that blind you to what else may be going on.
               • te reo putake …

                 12 April 2015 at 12:34 pm

                 Again, unless there is an allegation of actual corruption in those cases, what’s the point of a commission?
                 • Colonial Rawshark …

                   12 April 2015 at 2:29 pm

                   Hey with people like you who defend the powerful from having the microscope put on them on even their most dodgy dealings, why bother indeed.
             • Chooky …

               12 April 2015 at 12:09 pm

               she has had 7 years advocating for an “investigation”…she doesnt have the resources to conduct it herself….quite a difference
         • DoublePlusGood 6.2.2.1.2

           12 April 2015 at 12:19 pm

           Just give it a year or so for that international organisation to catch up with goings on over the past few years. Watch us tumble a number of places on that list.
           • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.2.1.2.1

             12 April 2015 at 12:22 pm

             It’s absurd that TRP can make a statement implying that in his mind, National and its friends have clean hands when it comes to cronyism and corruption. Or if they don’t, nothing extra can be put in place to combat it.

             Again, this is nothing more than siding with those with power who make the big decisions.
             • te reo putake …

               12 April 2015 at 12:35 pm

               Hey, impressive set of strawmen, CV. You grow up on a farm?
     • Chooky 6.2.3

       12 April 2015 at 12:00 pm

       +100 CR…and The Chairman …and The Murphey…and Penny , of course!…who started the question:

       “Does the Labour Party have policy supporting the establishment of an Independent Commission Against Corruption?”…they should have!…the cupboards need cleaning out to find what is lurking there left by the Nacts…or is Labour scared?

       …and what about the Greens and NZF and Mana/Int?….what is their policy?
       • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.3.1

         12 April 2015 at 12:09 pm

         It seems to me that TRP is protesting rather loudly that those in power making big money decisions don’t need the microscope put on them. Mainly by using the unbelievable argument that there isn’t a need to do so, and even if you did, it would make no real difference to anything.

         Just absurd.
         • te reo putake 6.2.3.1.1

           12 April 2015 at 2:58 pm

           Nope. I’ll try and use small words and short sentences for ya, CV.

           1. There isn’t actual corruption on NZ. At least, none that can be proved.

           2. If there is actual corruption, it needs to be provable to a legal standard.

           3. Key and his ilk grow stronger every time an allegation that is overblown or unprovable is thrown at them and use that vindication to do worse things. (cf DP, Dotcom’s Judgement Day flop etc.)

           4. There is no point calling for a corruption enquiry when there is no provable evidence of corruption. It will fail and strengthen the bad guys.

           5. Er,

           6 That’s it.
           • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.3.1.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 3:22 pm

             Fine, no corrupt practices amongst the power elite establishment of NZ then, what was I thinking.

             Thanks TRP you made it real clear in your typical condescending way: let’s carry on business as usual, it’s simply too difficult to challenge the power elite because they are so smart and capable.
             • te reo putake …

               12 April 2015 at 3:36 pm

               Nope, don’t take on fights that can’t be won. ‘It’s the vibe’ doesn’t work in real life, just the movies.
               • Colonial Rawshark …

                 12 April 2015 at 3:49 pm

                 Nope, you’re just disinterested in taking on the power establishment because they are too clever and too smart for the rest of us.
                 • Chooky …

                   12 April 2015 at 11:04 pm

                   or maybe he is one of them?
               • McFlock …

                 12 April 2015 at 3:50 pm

                 Actually, it didn’t work in the movie, either.

                 But your claim that “there isn’t actual corruption on NZ” is a bit odd, given a recent report by Deloitte. Yes, that’s Australia and NZ combined, and Aus was settled by criminals, but do you believe that all the corruption identified by Deloitte occurred in Aus and none in NZ?

                 “The most common types of corruption in the Deloitte report were undisclosed conflicts of interest, supplier kickbacks and personal favours.”: some of those sound pretty familiar based on one particular manager I encountered. And there was another instance of uncovered locally when audit practises changed – ended badly for the responsible manager, but all his friends who got cheap goods got away scot free. Oh, and a couple of other managers done for embezzlement, seperately, in a large organisation I’m involved with…

                 No corruption in NZ, though. Good to know.
                 • felix …

                   12 April 2015 at 4:19 pm

                   “…and Aus was settled by criminals…”

                   Aus was settled by criminals who got caught 😉
           • Incognito 6.2.3.1.1.2

             12 April 2015 at 3:44 pm

             Phillip Field has 11 convictions for corruption and bribery as a Member of Parliament.

             Malcolm Mason, a former ACC national property manager, got 3 convictions for corruption and bribery.

             Over the years there are loads of bribery convictions of public officials and closed cases of nepotism and fraud.
     • Draco T Bastard 6.2.4

       12 April 2015 at 12:09 pm

       TRP misses the point of course – to him, you’d only bother with an “anti-corruption commission” only when corruption got bad.

       Nope, not even that. Apparently he’d only bother with an anti-corruption commission if corruption was perceived to be bad.
       • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.4.1

         12 April 2015 at 12:11 pm

         So if the corruption is done just right and it is all kept quiet in the back rooms, deniable, and out of the media then things are sweet? Just great.
       • te reo putake 6.2.4.2

         12 April 2015 at 12:40 pm

         Nope. I’d want one if there was credible evidence of corruption. Like it or not, corruption is word with a reasonably precise meaning in law. If there are actual cases of corruption, where the is evidence of money changing hands, in contravention of NZ law, then lets have a look. But mistaking legal but dodgy for corrupt would mean nothing gets achieved. Remember, Key and his ilk are adept at the precise meaning of words, especially the legal definitions.
         • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.4.2.1

           12 April 2015 at 12:44 pm

           Nope. I’d want one if there was credible evidence of corruption.

           Sure let’s wait around until that happens and then throw something together ad hoc and Claytons like at the last moment. Frankly, if you don’t want extra eyes and ears examining the conduct of those in power, just say so.
           • weka 6.2.4.2.1.1

             12 April 2015 at 12:57 pm

             I can see TRP’s point re the legals. Plus, if such a commission were set up during this term, would we be able to trust it? I think not.

             edited.
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               12 April 2015 at 1:01 pm

               In the US, friendly amenable senior government officials, even military Generals, are given their cushy million dollar corporate jobs AFTER they have left office. Is this “corruption” in the narrow legalistic sense that TRP mentions? Nope. Is it actual corruption in practice? Yes.

               And with Sky City, Media Works, Dong Hua Liu, etc. Any corrupt practices there worth bothering about?
               • weka …

                 12 April 2015 at 1:19 pm

                 Not sure how that’s relevant to what I said.
                 • Colonial Rawshark …

                   12 April 2015 at 2:34 pm

                   TRP’s line is bullshit. He says that he’d want a commission on corruption if there was definite evidence of corruption. But let’s not bother looking for that evidence until we have it, even if some of the dealings already stink to high heaven. Because until we have definite “evidence of money changing hands,” there’s nothing to look into. Pfft.

                   My example simply illustrates that “corruption” has moved well beyond the phase of exchanging $100 bills in a brown paper bag. TRP knows this but he’s deliberately acting dumb on it, and who knows for what reason.
                   • te reo putake …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:09 pm

                     Nope. You’re just having a bad hear day, CV… you’re not listening to what I’m saying ;).

                     Which, is that in the absence of proof, there will only be negative outcomes for such a commission. We are dealing with clever bastards who have the finest lawyers, accountants and spinners to advise them. Every time we have a go at them and fail they get stronger. Hfee, Tranzrail, DP, Dotcom. All promised a smoking gun and all were firing blanks.

                     CV, if you have proof of actual corruption, then put it up. Not ‘shit you don’t like’, but actual crime. Otherwise, meh.
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:20 pm

                     Oh fuck off TRP, you’re using the worst and most clumsy right wing debating tactics now; why don’t you empower me with statutory powers and an investigating team and I’ll sort some evidence out for you. Until then I’m just another online commmentator saying that it would be worthwhile to bring additional focus on corrupt activities by the rich and powerful in NZ.

                     You may not think its worthwhile and you may not think there is a problem amongst the establishment worth tackling, but as always you are welcome to your own views.
                   • te reo putake …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:29 pm

                     Fair enough. You’ve got nothing. Nobody does. Kinda the point I was making right at the start, eh.
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 3:34 pm

                     Yeah the establishment power elite are so smart and so capable, let’s just leave them to it.
                   • weka …

                     12 April 2015 at 5:05 pm

                     “He says that he’d want a commission on corruption if there was definite evidence of corruption.”

                     No, he didn’t say that. Go back and read it and you’ll see there is one word that is different, and it’s key.

                     This is a very odd conversation. TRP disagrees with what’s presented, and this means he supports Key Inc? That’s fairly ridiculous.
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     12 April 2015 at 6:16 pm

                     So you’re sharpshooting the semantic difference between “credible evidence of corruption” and “definite evidence of corruption”???
           • Murray Rawshark 6.2.4.2.1.2

             12 April 2015 at 4:48 pm

             Not very hard to see where the Gulag came from, really.
             • rawshark-yeshe …

               12 April 2015 at 5:59 pm

               Hey @Murray Rawshark .. kia kaha! so good to see your name again … maybe I will come back too. Hope you have enjoyed your break .. I’ve made the very best of mine 😀
               • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …

                 12 April 2015 at 7:34 pm

                 Hi MR and r-y!
               • Murray Rawshark …

                 13 April 2015 at 12:26 am

                 Thanks. I had a holiday with family and caught heaps of undersized fish. They all went back.
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               12 April 2015 at 6:17 pm

               Welcome back to TS, Murray Rawshark.
             • Chooky …

               12 April 2015 at 7:05 pm

               +100 MR…and rawshark -yes!
               • Murray Rawshark …

                 13 April 2015 at 12:30 am

                 Thanks, CR and Chooky, and Kiwiri too. I’m not as enthusiastic about commenting as I was. Some people might be happy about that. In any case, I think some issues are just too important to remain silent on.
         • Skinny 6.2.4.2.2

           12 April 2015 at 1:10 pm

           You need to ponder the lack/stripping of regulatory authorities under this outfit in power. By the lack of wachdogs (checks & balances) pretty much everything in NZ society today, an anti corruption commission would be uncovering all sorts of dodginess.

           Put the shovel back in the garden shed the hole is deep enough cobbah.
           • Chooky 6.2.4.2.2.1

             12 April 2015 at 11:07 pm

             +100 Skinny
         • Draco T Bastard 6.2.4.2.3

           12 April 2015 at 1:16 pm

           Nope. I’d want one if there was credible evidence of corruption.

           There is credible evidence – it’s not reflected in Transparency International’s survey which only measures people’s perception.

           If there are actual cases of corruption, where the is evidence of money changing hands, in contravention of NZ law, then lets have a look.

           /facepalm

           Corruption:

           Corruption may include many activities including bribery and embezzlement. Government, or ‘political’, corruption occurs when an office-holder or other governmental employee acts in an official capacity for personal gain.

           Corruption isn’t as narrow as your mind.

           But mistaking legal but dodgy for corrupt would mean nothing gets achieved.

           Legal but dodgy would indicate unethical behaviour at the very least and possibly corrupt. It also shows that the laws need to be changed so as to pick up that behaviour.
           • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.4.2.3.1

             12 April 2015 at 2:37 pm

             TRP is defending establishment players from having the magnifying glass put on them by ordinary folk. Usual story.
           • te reo putake 6.2.4.2.3.2

             12 April 2015 at 3:11 pm

             Cheers, Draco, that definition is exactly what I’m saying. And your last sentence confirms it!
             • Colonial Rawshark …

               12 April 2015 at 3:16 pm

               So lets retool and rescope the commission and the laws supporting it, and I’m sure we’ll have your support then eh TRP. Meh.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               12 April 2015 at 3:33 pm

               No, really, it’s not. Personal gain isn’t always monetary nor is it always handed over in brown paper bags.

               Laws needing to be changed would be in support of a anti-corruption commission which would be created by laws.
               • weka …

                 12 April 2015 at 5:03 pm

                 Are you suggesting a commission to investigate unethical but legal practice?
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   12 April 2015 at 5:38 pm

                   That’s probably a good idea as well. Laws are never perfect.

                   What I’d really like to see is a computer analysis of our laws. That would fairly rapidly show up all the present loopholes and contradictions in them.
                   • McFlock …

                     12 April 2015 at 11:29 pm

                     I’m not really sure whether computers would be particularly suitable to that job.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 April 2015 at 8:43 am

                     First mooted in 1975 and it’s been getting better ever since.

                     Computers can and do analyse quite a lot of stuff that most people would probably believe that they can’t do.
                   • McFlock …

                     13 April 2015 at 10:22 am

                     And similarly, they can’t do a lot of stuff that people assume they can do.

                     Identifying legal loopholes would be at the pretty far end of capabilities, given that it involves everything computers are bad at and a lot of things humans are adept at (pattern recognition, lateral thinking, innovation, and so on).
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 April 2015 at 2:26 pm

                     Actually, computers are awesome at pattern recognition. It’s their best feature and it would be patterns (connections and relationships) that the programmers would be looking for in laws. It’s this capability that makes Big Data work.
                   • McFlock …

                     13 April 2015 at 2:48 pm

                     Connections and relationships is network analysis.

                     My understanding of pattern recognition is, for example, determining whether photo X is me at the time of the photo in the database, me ten years after the reference photo was take (i.e. me, now, older, heavier and with more or less hair), or someone else. Or voice recognition.

                     But either way, a computer analysis to find loopholes is unlikely to come up with a dutch sandwich, for example.
                 • McFlock …

                   12 April 2015 at 11:24 pm

                   Given that some types of misconduct can bridge into corruption (thinking of the colleague of the cop who shot that guy in the back on camera in the states – filling in paperwork that doesn’t seem to match the recording) a combined Inspector General’s office might be an idea to investigate complaints against all government departments and arms. Police, defense, work&income, ird, everyone.

                   So the IG office would investigate complaints, but also ethical issues and advise on law or procedural changes that might be required. And give training in professional ethics, such as a traffic light assessment of different scenarios.
               • Incognito …

                 12 April 2015 at 5:05 pm

                 You may want to read this paper Clean and Green with Deepening Shadows? A Non-Complacent View of Corruption in New Zealand; in the Appendix is a list of 19 legal cases of bribery and fraud by public officials.

                 On page 15:

                 “There is no central clearing house for information about the prosecution and conviction of New Zealand public officials on corruption or fraud charges, but some casual research only between 2001 and 2005 uncovered a not insubstantial list (Gregory, Zirker and Scrimgeour, 2012: 14-15; Gregory, 2002, 2006. See Appendix.”

                 And on page 18:

                 “It is beyond the scope of this paper to list all of the recent corruption scandals that pose reputational risks to New Zealand. Suffice it to say that there has been a series of scandals of various kinds involving prison guards, police officers, and former and current officials (including a former Minister of Justice) involved with allegedly fraudulent investment schemes, and so on, some of which are listed in the Appendix.”
7. Paul 7

   12 April 2015 at 10:38 am

   Excellent programme on the NZ and South Korea ‘free trade’ agreement.
   With listening to, especially with the regard to the future possible signing of the TPP.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/20174229/insight-for-12-april-2015-sth-korea-and-the-nz-trade-deal
8. Draco T Bastard 8

   12 April 2015 at 10:45 am

   The privileged few:
   To those that have shall be given

   The hole in the middle
   As recently as the 1980s demand from employers in rich countries was most buoyant for workers with a college education, less so for those with fewer qualifications and least so for those who had at best attended high school. But from the early 1990s that pattern changed. Demand still grew fastest for skilled workers and more slowly for less-skilled workers, but the share of employment in the middle actually shrank. In the 2000s the change became more pronounced: employment among the least-skilled workers soared whereas the share of jobs held by middle- and high-skill workers declined. Work involving complex but manual tasks, like cleaning offices or driving trucks, became more plentiful. Both in America and in Europe, since 2000 low-skill, low-productivity and low-wage service occupations have gained ground.

   In other words, the rise in Bullshit Jobs which, unsurprisingly, The Economist says isn’t happening.

   Technology has created a growing reservoir of less-skilled labour while simultaneously expanding the range of tasks that can be automated. Most workers are therefore being forced into competition both against each other and against machines. No wonder their share of the economic pie has got smaller, in developing economies as well as in the rich world.

   And that is the real problem. The majority of the people competing with each other for the limited amount that the rich are willing to part with.

   We need to move to a cooperative society and get rid of the rich.
   • marty mars 8.1

     12 April 2015 at 12:44 pm

     I like your comments in this comment.

     “forced into competition both against each other and against machines”

     where’s John Connor when you need him
     • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1

       12 April 2015 at 1:19 pm

       That’s not my comment but part of the article.
       • marty mars 8.1.1.1

         12 April 2015 at 2:45 pm

         I know that that is why I said “I like your comments in this comment.” and put a full stop to end that particular part of my comment. I then quote a sentence from the article you commented on, and which i had commented on your commenting on it in a positive fashion, and proceeded to comment on the quoted comment in the article that, as mentioned, you had commented on and that I had commented on in regards to you commenting on it, my comment on that article, trying to be smart with a pop culture reference and, what I in my folly thought was shy wit when in fact it didn’t resemble it, that is wit, in any way. Still i awaited and your pithy comment surf-sails above my kayak of mediocrity.
9. veutoviper 9

   12 April 2015 at 11:34 am

   Another couple of excellent interviews/discussions on Sunday Morning on RNZ National this morning, well worth listening to.

   First, a great inteview with Rochelle Rees (aka Rocky, also lprent’s niece, well known here on TS by those who have been here on TS for some years) on “When your boyfriend is a spy”.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20174411/rochelle-rees-when-your-boyfriend-is-a-spy

   Followed by a very interesting/revealing indepth half hour panel discussion on surveillance with:
   “Keith Locke is a former Green MP whose SIS file revealed that he had been under surveillance since he was 11 years old and attended a William Morris social evening; Rhys Ball is a former SIS intelligence officer turned Massey University academic; and Kathleen Kuehn is a Victoria University media studies lecturer and author of a forthcoming BWB text on surveillance in New Zealand.”

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20174410/spying-on-ourselves-a-panel-discussion
   • Anne 9.1

     12 April 2015 at 5:14 pm

     Thanks Veutoviper. It served to confirm what I already knew from my own former experiences.

     I found some of the comments of the former SIS intelligence officer, Rhys Ball contemptible. I refer especially to his comments about the collection of “human-related intelligence”. I wonder what tax payers of the day would have thought about the gathering of personal information including, it would seem from Keith Locke’s experiences, their romantic and sexual adventures – and at tax payers expense?

     I also took exception to his comment concerning what lead to his employment with the SIS in the first place. He came from a military family so therefore he had an understanding of “security, protection and responsibility.” Apparently the rest of us haven’t.

     Finally his attempt to equate the size of his own SIS file with that of Keith Locke was laughable. His file was would have been the standard Public Service personal file containing his regular progress reports, reports of work undertaken during the course of his employment etc. – a far cry from someone who had every aspect of his life spied on for 51 years?
10. Philip Ferguson 10

    12 April 2015 at 11:37 am

    The south of Ireland is about to vote for gay marriage in a referendum next month; this will be the first time gay marriage has been secured through a vote by the people:
    Indicative of the massively changed social attitudes in the south of Ireland over the past generation:
    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/irish-society-and-politics-and-the-referendum-on-gay-marriage/

    Indicative of how social attitudes have changed there over a generation.
    • joe90 10.1

      12 April 2015 at 12:40 pm

      The usual suspects are playing nasty distributing flyers that claim gay people have a greater risk of cancer or alcoholism and are more likely to harm any children they adopt.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/leaflet-distributed-in-dublin-claims-gay-people-contract-cancers-earlier-in-life-10062174.html
11. Ergo Robertina 11

    12 April 2015 at 11:43 am

    Interesting piece from Nick Cohen in the Guardian on mental health politics; language use and austerity.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/12/mentally-ill-people-easy-tory-target

    ”In Britain, the powerful can get away with any inhumane act as long as they cover themselves with the cloak of “appropriate” language…
    ”The covering of real suffering with euphemism suits an age of austerity well. For if people are not suffering, if patients are empowered “consumers”, why do they need public money spent on their treatment?”
12. Philip Ferguson 12

    12 April 2015 at 11:51 am

    As we approach Anzac Day:

    by Phil Duncan

    We’re fast approaching the 100th anniversary of Gallipoli, when New Zealand joined with Australia, France and Britain in 1915 in trying to invade and destroy the Ottoman Empire, which was ruled from what is now Istanbul.

    This gruesome and bloody episode of imperialism has always been celebrated by reactionaries in New Zealand, but now the new dominant liberal establishment have made it their own too. Liberals and reactionaries alike have been rewriting history to present Gallipoli as a defining moment in the emergence of modern New Zealand and this country’s national identity.

    What was it about?

    They talk about an “Anzac spirit” which is defined as “sticking it out no matter the odds” (or whether the cause is right or wrong, for that matter). This doggedness is supposed to be a defining characteristic of New Zealand and Australian national identity and people, with Anzac Day being a time to reflect on this.

    The new liberal nationalism continues to be accompanied by a load of rubbish about Gallipoli and World War I having something to do with freedom.

    The harsh reality, however, is that. . . . full article at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/gallipoli-invasion-a-dirty-and-bloody-business/
13. aerobubble 13

    12 April 2015 at 12:48 pm

    God knows everything, which no doubt let some funny Christian to self-confirm themselves to have a small mind, or rather us all. In response, an athiest countered, no they were not so small minded as that. Moro chat on the subject, allowing a Christian to refute the smalled perception of some Christians only confused matters more.

    Small mind is anyone who runs to a dogmatic book for answers since reality has far more in it that can be fitted in any book. Stupid Moro
14. The Murphey 14

    12 April 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Get stuffed, apologists and liars: we won the vaccination debate, you lost

    An insight into the mindset of editors at the Murdoch press in Australia and an indicator of the track Australia is on as a nation

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/claire-harvey-anti-vaxers-you-are-baby-killers/story-fni0cwl5-1227272923247

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/claire-harvey-the-sunday-telegraph-has-scored-a-massive-victory-in-our-vaccination-campaign/story-fni0cwl5-1227300007357?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=DailyTelegraph&utm_medium=Facebook#social-comments

    Persecuting a sector of society which will not provide for the stated vaccination target of 95%

    Labor leader Bill Shorten is also offering bipartisan support for tougher provisions, writing to the Prime Minister on Friday urging him to close the conscientious objector loophole. His support is vital because the changes will ­require Senate support to ­become law

    “The science is settled, the experts agree and strengthening these requirements is a common-sense measure that will benefit all children,’’ Mr Shorten said.

    Conclusion: Scope to be widened should this ‘social stress test’ become ‘law’
    • Pasupial 14.1

      12 April 2015 at 4:00 pm

      TM

      I saw that over on The Guardian, which did note some exemptions:

      The policy, to take effect early next year, will continue to leave open exemptions on medical or religious grounds…
      A religion’s governing body would have to formally register its objection with the government, which would have to approve it…

      The change flows from the Productivity Commission report on childcare, which said: “As an inducement to families to fully immunise their child, and to protect the children and the workers … immunisation should be required for children to be eligible for child-based subsidies unless they are being cared for in their own home.”

      http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/12/parents-who-refuse-to-vaccinate-children-to-be-denied-childcare-rebates-reports

      I believe that the medical benefits of vaccination are clear, but there is certainly reason for concern regarding your point; “Scope to be widened should this ‘social stress test’ become ‘law’”. “The Productivity Commission” does have an ominous ring to it, and you don’t have to look very far to find criticism of their methods (mostly in regard to the childcare recommendations):

      …the proposed withdrawal of any government funding for non-disadvantaged children, whose primary carer has no workforce needs, makes it clear that public childcare funding is available only for economic, not social, needs. If there is no increased GDP output, there is no need for care.

      This exclusion of children currently entitled to support entirely removes the original social functions of local children’s services as part of a community that supports families’ other needs.

      Another economic absurdity that ignores children’s needs is the Productivity Commission’s critique of parents who fail to move children to cheaper services because of needs for relationship stability, thus undermining competition…

      http://theconversation.com/productivity-commission-childcare-report-shows-blind-faith-in-market-37849
      • Ergo Robertina 14.1.1

        12 April 2015 at 4:21 pm

        It won’t be straightforward on religious grounds though; the governing body of the church has to have registered their opposition to vaccine, which won’t be happening in any of the mainstream churches.
        And what about people who are not religious but have other objections (apart from medical issues like vaccine allergy)?
    • Ergo Robertina 14.2

      12 April 2015 at 4:07 pm

      Wow that’s ugly writing from Claire Harvey.
      Her twitter feed is mildly interesting; she’s miffed the SMH didn’t give her publication credit for the great leap forward.
      https://twitter.com/chmharvey/status/587016432493264896
      Incidentally Harvey used to be based in NZ as the Australian’s correspondent and made semi regular appearances on Mediawatch.
      I can’t see our media (apart from North and South, which goes bully boy on vaccines and homeopathy at times) running a campaign pushing such an authoritarian line and if they did I don’t think it would resonate with the NZ public.
    • NickS 14.3

      12 April 2015 at 4:17 pm

      Personally there’s better ways of doing this, like free vaccinations, more advertising, better public education, combating anti-vaccination stupidity and ending religious exemptions, while tightening medical exemptions to known, empirically solid conditions.

      Why? Because it’s far to easy to “interpret” even older religious texts to fit what ever bullshit you want to spread, and religious legitimacy is a function of what the religion is based off/split from and the amount of money to hand.

      As for medical exemptions, there’s only a handful of legitimate reasons for avoiding vaccines, but plenty of doctors who are willing to sign off on stuff that’s clearly bullshit. If you can afford their fees that is.

      Thus this is only going to affect the poor, who usually miss vaccinations due to time/money stresses and not the core anti-vaccination crowd who usually have the money, connections and arrogance derived from ignorance to fight this. And probably wont be affect anyhow if they’re already earning enough in the first place

      Typically Tory half-arsed bullshit in other words T_T
    • Murray Rawshark 14.4

      12 April 2015 at 4:58 pm

      1. I’m pro vaccination in most cases.

      2. Australians have not yet realised they are a free people. By and large, they act as if they are on conditional parole and need regulation in all areas of their lives. I couldn’t see a similar legal approach working in Aotearoa.
      • weka 14.4.1

        12 April 2015 at 6:26 pm

        We already do this shit to beneficiaries in NZ (not on vaccinations, but on other things).
    • The Murphey 14.5

      12 April 2015 at 6:46 pm

      https://julieleask.wordpress.com/

      Link to background and social commentary by the academic of which Claire Harvey states

      There’s an associate professor of public health at Sydney University, Julie Leask, who has specialised in criticising The Sunday Telegraph’s campaign.

      She was at it again on her blog yesterday, saying the ­financial penalty “amounts to a form of mandatory vaccination for lower income families, but without a no-fault vaccine injury compensation system implemented alongside. It almost certainly won’t shift entrenched vaccine rejectors.

      Get stuffed, apologists and liars: we won the vaccination debate, you lost

      What on earth is she on about? Vaccination is unquestionably, undoubtedly, a lifesaver. Getting people to vaccinate the kids: that’s the whole point, Julie.

      After I wrote a column a couple of weeks ago, Associate Professor Leask told The Sydney Morning Herald that I was wrong to say vaccine-refusers are responsible for the deaths of babies like poor Riley ­Hughes aged four weeks, who died of whooping cough when he was too young to be vaccinated.

      “Calling them things like ‘baby killers’ does nothing for this issue, and I think it further polarises people. I don’t see any good evidence that just shouting down opponents actually works,” Prof Leask said.

      Works to do what?

      To win over the tiny minority of “conscientious objectors” (actually, conscience has nothing to do with it)?

      I don’t want to win them over. I want them to feel ashamed of their own stupidity. I want them to know they are vastly outnumbered ­because they are wrong.

      And I want to give voice to the righteous fury of the rest of us that a small group of selfish people are jeopardising the health of all our children.

      Reading through the recent works of CH at the TDT she is either acting or deranged but either way her subject matter themes trends in being pro chemicals including open sneering at breast-feeders and those who prefer raw milk products using aggressive and at times violent language

      Hardly the style who should be taking part in subject matter which has the ability to tear society to shreds such is the combustive content

      Should Australia choose the path which indicators are it will do then I am certain the scope will be widened at which time we shall see the best and worst of humanity

      It is likely that the discussion will re-open in NZ having been shut down back in 2013

      Few issues have the capability to be as explosive divisive and destructive to society as forced vaccination
      • Chooky 14.5.1

        12 April 2015 at 7:11 pm

        +100 The Murphey….I am totally opposed to forced vaccinations!…one thing for certain is that should it occur there will be much more home schooling and far fewer visits to doctors….doctor -patient relationships will be wrecked….it is BIG PHARMA BIG BROTHER FASCISM…and there is no accountability for vaccinations which have adverse side effects

        wasnt Tony Abbott a Jesuit would be priest until they kicked him out?
        • The Murphey 14.5.1.1

          12 April 2015 at 7:41 pm

          Those who are proponents of ‘forced [name subject matter]’ have an agenda

          Be it consciously or not they are seeking to push that agenda onto others

          The vaccination discussion is so divisive because it pits the most primal of emotions into direct combat via a ‘threat’ against the offspring of either side of the debate

          The most primal of emotions is fear

          While at University, Tony Abbott was charged with indecent assault (the case was later dismissed by a Judge).

          He was also caught by the police vandalising a street sign, which also resulted in an appearance before a Judge who found him guilty but recorded no conviction.

          After returning to Australia, he entered the St Patrick’s Seminary in Manly where he studied to become a Catholic priest.

          While at the Seminary, he wrote articles for The Catholic Weekly and The Bulletin.

          In 1987, he quit the Seminary and started looking at a future in politics, although he continued writing for The Bulletin.

          His sister is in a gay relationship and would like to be married however The Abbott lead government is seeking to block any changes to legislature which would allow same sex marriages
          • Chooky 14.5.1.1.1

            12 April 2015 at 11:10 pm

            thanks…just about says it all…he is a moron

            ( sure someone said he was booted out of the seminary though…)
            • The Murphey 14.5.1.1.1.1

              13 April 2015 at 10:05 am

              Or was moved due to ‘interference’ towards a career in politics where he would be controllable due to the ‘indiscretions’

              The Anglo West has been taken over by clones of the same cloth

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