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Open mike 12/08/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 12th, 2016 - 91 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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91 comments on “Open mike 12/08/2016 ”

  1. Paul 1

    Chris Trotter tries to argue that Clinton is ‘progressive’.
    Comments below show what most think of that.

    One says.

    Take up gardening, Mr Trotter. It’s getting embarrassing. Of course there are differences between Clinton and Trump, but both could lead us to war. Clinton would do it deliberately and Trump would blunder into it.



    • Sabine 1.1

      and for what it is worth, US American will not vote for their President on the ‘war’ issue.
      the US Americans have no issue going to war as long as the war is fought somewhere else. They will however vote for ‘progressive’ things such as health care, well funded schools, the much re-build of infrastructure etc, and on the other side of the aisle they will vote for ‘second amendment’, they will vote to outlaw abortion, they will vote to expel Obama Care (while flawed and still to expensive has provided insurance for several million of people).

      I don’t understand why people don’t get this. War in its abstract, overseas form is not something that a democrat or a republican will vote on. They will vote on domestic issues as much as the National Voter in NZ voted to keep is Capital Gains.

      Politics begins at home, so that notion that these guys are going to do something good for the world is just useless. They will vote for the one that will bring back jobs, bring back a bit of pride, bring back the bacon so to speak. They will do the same here.
      Nothing to do with progressive or conservative.

      and yes, much like here , they – the voters – individually care very little about how their vote will affect someone else far far away.

    • I don’t know, judging by the dogpile I got when I tried to argue that Clinton is a right-wing democrat, (which she evidently is if you look at how weak her “wins” against corporations are, and her stances on anything but healthcare, and even the details of what she supported and opposed during the healthcare reform) a lot of people here wouldn’t disagree too loudly with her being a progressive, because apparently she’s left-of-centre in their view, as opposed to someone right-of-centre who gets away with it due to her party ALSO being on average right-of-centre, despite being the leftmost option.

      • Puckish Rogue 1.2.1

        If she were in NZ she’d be considered to the right of John Key and not by a small margin either

        • See I wouldn’t go quite that far, she’s probably at about the same place economically as John Key, but is more commited to being a liberal than he is at the very least.

          That said, in a less corrupted political system, she would probably be more left-wing, so while she’s objectively right-wing, it is fair to say that she’s also typical for a Democrat in many ways.

          • Grumpy

            In many ways Trump is more left wing. What we are seeing is he disintegration of labels. The Republicans see themselves as the voice of the disenfranchised worker and middle classes,, while the Democrats fasten onto the bankster feed tube and embrace identity politics.

            • Matthew Whitehead

              Trump is a populist. He’s not very left-wing as a principle, but he supports some left-wing positions that Hillary doesn’t. (or more genuinely than she does such as on opposing TPP)

              But more than being left or right, the most relevant label for Trump is that he’s an authoritarian, and not just in the small way that conservative policians engage in authoritarianism by restricting small liberties here and there. Trump outright has no problem with banning media, inciting violence, and requiring proof of allegiance. He belongs in the garbage with the other dictators and would-be-dictators of the world.

      • Sabine 1.2.2

        Yes, she is a conservative as was her husband and now Obama. I think that US Americans still have ways to go before they would vote for a true progressive. They had Kucinic, heck look what happened to Carter and his Solar Cells on the White house …..

        But, she is still more to the left than anyone on the republican side in regards to gender (especially the right to choose, the right to control ones fertility etc), education, infrastructure, race and yes even poverty.

        Is she a lefty, nope and I don’t think she ever sold herself as one, but she is in the US american sense a progressive.

        • Anne

          Exactly Sabine.

        • Grumpy

          And another one bites the dust! Still think the Clintons are wonderful?

          • Sabine


            “In a statement to Business Insider on Wednesday, Rich family spokesperson Brad Bauman thanked investigators and implored high-profile figures to stop attempting to “politicize” Rich’s death by perpetuating unfounded theories about the shooting.

            “The family welcomes any and all information that could lead to the identification of the individuals responsible, and certainly welcomes contributions that could lead to new avenues of investigation,” Bauman said in the statement.

            He added:

            “That said, some are attempting to politicize this horrible tragedy, and in their attempts to do so, are actually causing more harm that good and impeding on the ability for law enforcement to properly do their job. For the sake of finding Seth’s killer, and for the sake of giving the family the space they need at this terrible time, they are asking for the public to refrain from pushing unproven and harmful theories about Seth’s murder.””

    • Anne 1.3

      There is selective commenting going on over there. I posted a comment upholding Trotter’s line of thought… not because I’m a Clinton fan but because I detect the same sort of one-sided hysteria creeping in to the anti-Clinton rants as is happening in Britain with the anti-Corbyn rants. Comment never appeared. It’s happened before so don’t think I’ll bother to go there again.

  2. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster) 2

    Thom Hartmann explodes the myth of ‘free trade.’

    Now, the problem is: how can we force the entire National Party (and the Labour Party too) to watch this short 7 minute clip? It should be required viewing for all aspiring and incumbent members of parliament!

    • Bill 2.1

      That was a fairly reasonable run through of free trade.

      Not convinced that VAT acts as a de-facto tariff though. The example he gives (German made cars) means, as I understood it, that a German consumer will pay 19% VAT on any new car, no matter where it’s been manufactured…so no advantage to German car manufacturers on that front.

      That the 19% VAT is dropped if the car is exported doesn’t strike me as meaning that German car manufacturers get an advantage over US car manufacturers in the US market either.

      But maybe I missed a detail.

      I still think the clearest example to use for illustrating what free trade is and how it works, is that of the British – chopped off the thumbs of Indian weavers to ensure that Indian cotton was processed in Paisley, Manchester etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      He starts off using the words comparative advantage while describing absolute advantage. He ends by describing sales taxes (GST, VAT) as a tariff.

      Now, he’s absolutely right that the so called free-trade deals have made things worse after protectionist policies made things better. But by getting those two things completely wrong he’s undermining the entire argument.

  3. 44 south 3

    The latest post over at “Fred On Everything” re Trump/Clinton and Russia sums it up pretty well.

    • Garibaldi 3.1

      Thank you 44 South. That does sum it up well.
      There is a great doc. series called “The Unknown War” which details the Russian role in WW2. It is a real eye-opener to see what Russia endured and how they won the war for us all.
      Also I like watching Putin when he has press conferences – he has a great grasp of the issues and addresses them with sound reasoning.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1

        It is easy to regard countries as suprahuman beings that think and take decisions and do things. Practically speaking, countries consist of a small number of people, usually men, who make decisions for reasons often selfish, pathologically aggressive, pecuniary, delusional, misinformed, or actually psychopathic in the psychiatric sense.

        That sounds about right and what you end up with when only a few people are making the policy decisions rather than the entire nation.

  4. Puckish Rogue 4

    Well done Luuka, from being ranked 28th in the world and qualifying last to storming to silver is a fantastic effort


    Well done lads, doing what you need to do and doing better then anyone else


  5. ianmac 5

    Parata parades the achievement levels creeping forward but what are the kids loosing? This says it all for parents and grandparents and meddling politicians.

    “The truth—for this parent and so many others—is this: Her child has sacrificed her natural curiosity and love of learning at the altar of achievement, and it’s our fault. Marianna’s parents, her teachers, society at large—we are all implicated in this crime against learning.”

    • Draco T Bastard 5.1

      Above all else, we taught her to fear failure. That fear is what has destroyed her love of learning.

      And that is what our education system has been doing to a lot of people for a very long time. Not passing a course is seen as a failure and that brings persecution in various forms from all quarters. That persecution breeds fear.

      • ianmac 5.1.1

        DTB. A science friend never answered the questions posed by his kids. Instead he would muse seriously the question, and add another question. The kids are both seriously curious enquiring adults now.
        Surveys of NZ classrooms show that kids do not ask questions. They just answer the teacher’s ones. No time they say but…

  6. Ad 6

    Silver Fern Farms is having its special shareholder meeting about its takeover by Shanghai Maling today. Apparently, control of the Board and of appointing the Chief Executive from New Zealand interests to Shanghai Maling doesn’t constitute a “major transaction” under the Companies Act 1993, so a special resolution of shareholders is not required.

    The Companies Act says a company must not enter into a major transaction unless the transaction is approved by special resolution.

    NZFirst has been leading the political charge to oppose this sale.

    Separate but related, NZFirst’s Land Transfer (Foreign Ownership of Land Register) Amendment Bill has been pulled on the Parliamentary ballot yesterday. United Future and the Maori Party are likely to have the deciding vote.

    Silver Fern Farms is by a fair shake the largest meat processor in New Zealand, and dominates the South Island. It’s one of New Zealand’s largest exporters. They have 19 processing sites across the country. At peak season they employ around 7,000 workers. Those 16,000 farmers are also shareholders.

    I am pretty pissed off that this has even got this far.

    We took over a century to gradually pull back control of processing from colonials like Borthwicks. Silver Fern Farms are now most of the way to giving over our a major chunk of our farming economic sovereignty to Chinese foreign commercial interests. I wouldn’t care what country they were: selling out something this important representing so many farmers is utterly wrong and should be stopped.

    • Gangnam Style 6.1

      SIlverfern says it doesn’t matter what gets decided today, the deal is going ahead regardless.

    • Macro 6.2

      ^^^^ THIS
      Totally agree Ad.

      We took over a century to gradually pull back control of processing from colonials like Borthwicks. Silver Fern Farms are now most of the way to giving over our a major chunk of our farming economic sovereignty to Chinese foreign commercial interests. I wouldn’t care what country they were: selling out something this important representing so many farmers is utterly wrong and should be stopped.


      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1

        Yep, it seems the only people who can see the damage to our society that foreign ownership produces is everybody except economists, politicians and RWNJs. Unfortunately, it’s the politicians making the decisions often in corruption with the RWNJs.

  7. Molly 7

    Gordon Copeland has an article in the Herald today: ARC’s urban boundary to blame for evil of land banking.

    I attended that meeting – and a few others like it – as a member of the community.

    He lays the blame on ARC and the 2008 Parliament for the MUL.

    It’s a redirection at best, and misdirection at its worst.

    While attending the Unitary Plan workshops, I came across a hard copy of proposals that would offset the likelihood of land banking. This was produced by Auckland Council, and I only picked up the single copy that was there alongside the rest. My attempts to find an online copy that afternoon – for posting to the community – failed.

    Included in this document was reference to a number of mechanisms that could be employed by Auckland Council. One was “capital value uplift” tax. ie. if your property was rezoned, then you would pay a tax on the increased capital equity when you resold (at increased value) or developed.

    This alongside an increased land tax on undeveloped residential land, would have mitigated some of the issues he points out in his article.

    I raised these choices in a few subsequent meetings, most particularly memorable with John Duguid, Head Planner in charge of the Unitary Plan. He dismissed it immediately, as having been discounted as an option. By who – he didn’t say.

    I now wonder if I picked up a document that was not available to the public for discussion. It was a very small turnout in Freeman’s Bay, and I spent a few minutes talking to a very tired but personable Len Brown.

    I wonder if it was a document inadvertently left on the public consultation table.

    The Unitary Plan consultation did appear to start off with the best of intentions, but the process – from my perspective – is now controlled by the usual suspects and short-term thinkers.

  8. Wayne 8


    I would imagine the main reason why it was rejected is that the Auckland City has no legal power to impose such a tax.

    The city, or any local govt, can only impose rates and charges for services delivered.

    Taxes, and such a thing as a “capital value uplift’ tax would certainly be a tax, are the domain of central government. There is no way it could have been characterized as a rate.

    And taxes should definitely remain the domain of central govt, they are accountable in a much more direct way for any taxes they impose. Any new tax or increased tax requires an act of parliament.

    • Molly 8.1

      Many cities around the world, London included, have such a tax.

      If you are stating that legislation cannot be changed regarding local government, then I disagree.

      In the last few years there have been many changes to the local government acts at national level. (Including the capping of development charges that are then subsidised by the ratepayers.) A government is in place to make changes to benefit citizens and residents long term – or it is not. An act of parliament to invoke this tax around the country is a good outcome. And that tax can be returned to the council’s for specific community uses, I have no problem with that.

      Your opinion that tax should remain the domain of central government ignores the rates (if not the GST on those rates) paid to local governments.

      The issues of unfettered or badly designed development is felt at local level.

      And mitigation or considered planning has to be at that level, else disconnected communities result.

      Examples of this is apparent in the consolidated Auckland Council, and could be noticed even in some of the larger district councils, where the smaller communities were neglected or disregarded.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2

      And taxes should definitely remain the domain of central govt, they are accountable in a much more direct way for any taxes they impose.

      I disagree with that for four reasons:
      1. A city/region should have control of the land within it’s borders and be able to make decisions for the betterment of the city including adding taxes to alter behaviour in regards to that land
      2. The central government should only be setting broad policy that the city/region then make local laws to uphold
      3. The central government is not accountable to the rate payers at all
      4. Central government doesn’t have the information or the flexibility to govern the regions as well as the country whereas the local councils do. It’s actually why we have local councils and not just central government

  9. Anne 9

    What a load of discombobulated crap from Andrea Vance.


    She describes Andrew Little as waxing desperate with imagination. She’s the one waxing desperate…

    And how about this:

    In an astonishing and undignified episode, he tongue-lashed Wellington mayoral candidate Nick Leggett and left-wing commentator Phil Quin, and humiliated his Napier MP Stuart Nash.

    Left wing commentator Phil Quin? Who is she trying to kid? He’s the one who resigned publicly and dramatically over the “Chinese sounding names debacle” she claims later in the article. Yeah… Phil Twyford as been fully vindicated since.

    Have always suspected Ms Vance is a two-faced journo. Now I know.

    • Anne 9.1

      Further excerpt:

      And some on the centre-right are daydreaming about what a new party would look like: a front bench with (electable) talent like Shane Jones, Josie Pagani, Leggett, Nash and Davis.

      Davis excepted (I have a lot of time for him), what’s in her drinking water that’s fried her brain?

      • Bearded Git 9.1.1

        Pagani on the Labour front bench…aaaarrrrghhh my day ruined….

        • Draco T Bastard

          Apparently that would be the front bench of a new party. One that, like Act, will have to make deals with National to even get into parliament.

      • Karen 9.1.2

        I used to have some respect for Andrea Vance but this opinion piece looks like it was written by Matthew Hooton. What absolute nonsense!

        Davis is NOT part of that rightwing cabal, despite all attempts by some to claim otherwise. Most of us were relieved when Andrew Little exposed Leggott as a rightwinger with Act support, and were also pleased to see Nash brought into line.

        Leggott, Pagani, and Quinn have been plotting to move Labour rightwards for years but it is clear that they no longer have any influence within the party. Cosgrove and Goff are on their way out and they are obviously panicking. That Vance bought their spin is deeply disappointing.

        • Gangnam Style

          Recall we had trolls smearing Vance as a Labour stooge, well maybe half true (right wing Labour stooge?), no matter, I was always weary of her opinions as she was always a ‘Labour did it too’ repeater. Pal of Pagani maybe?

        • Anne

          Davis is NOT part of that rightwing cabal.

          I’m picking she threw his name into the ring to give the ‘cabal’ some respectability.

          Bear in mind where Vance learned her trade… The News of the World. She’s brought their trademark underhand tactics with her. I should not be surprised if she wasn’t doing a bit of a counter-spin job for the govt. because they are under a lot of pressure at the moment.

          • Roflcopter

            You need your own episode on X-Files.

          • Karen

            I actually think Vance is one of the better journalists we have in that she does usually do research.

            This article suggests to me she is friendly with Josie Pagani who often appears on TVNZ to represent the left (even though she is not at all left) and Vance has all too easily swallowed the Pagani/Leggott spin. Poor effort from someone who should know better.

            • Anne

              You could be right Karen. After all Vance is new to NZ. Doesn’t have the background of knowledge and understanding of NZ politics (no doubt thinks she does) so could be easily mislead by the likes of the Paganis/Quins or Leggotts of this world. It suggests to me she needs to do more research and start talking to the people who actually know what they’re talking about. Eg. Andrew Little.

              • Chuck

                Wow…are you suggesting that Vance cannot think for herself?

                Easily mislead…why? because Vance is female? that’s how you sound Anne.

                Could you not accept that maybe Vance wrote the article based on “her considered opinion”? instead of getting nasty…

                • Anne

                  Pffft… reading what’s not there. Anyone can do that. I take it you are a typical misogynist male trying to project your failings on to a female? 😎

                  • Chuck

                    “Doesn’t have the background of knowledge and understanding of NZ politics”

                    “so could be easily mislead”

                    “It suggests to me she needs to do more research and start talking to the people who actually know what they’re talking about”

                    No, I am on solid ground here Anne…you don’t like what Vance has said so you play the “poor wee thing” BS…

                    From what I can see, Vance says what she thinks…if it critical of the left or right I don’t care.

                • Rodel

                  Chuck-Now that’s a real troll attempt at diversion. Unconvincing though.
                  Anne..add a Pffft from me too.

      • Rodel 9.1.3

        “And some on the centre-right are daydreaming about what a new party would look like: a front bench with (electable) talent like Shane Jones, Josie Pagani, Leggett, Nash and Davis.”
        Vance should be ashamed to think she’s any sort of journalist to invent such deliberate fabrication. It’s reminiscent of The News of the World semi- criminal rubbish.

    • whateva next? 9.2

      Vance is cooking up drama for ratings….Andrew was absolutely correct to explain to Stuart Nash it is “not a good look”…What about Vance asking Nash what his game is? If Hekia was doing a speaking engagement with Justin Lester, would Key have something to say?? We can’t even imagine it as it would not happen, cheers Stu, managed to divide people again.

      • b waghorn 9.2.1

        It made Mr Little look like a strong leader imo , minions need chipping into line occasionally , ( I know because I ‘ve had the odd boss chip me when needed)

      • Cinny 9.2.2

        she used to work for “News of the World” for sure she is cooking up drama for ratings. Good call

    • Chuck 9.3

      Andrew Little made it very easy for Vance to write that piece.

      And as for Phil Twyford…39.5% of houses are sold to people with Chinese sounding names…yeh right “Phil has fully vindicated” NOT!!

      • Anne 9.3.1

        Where have you been in the last few weeks? Estate agents, financiers, journos (the real ones), various other expert commentators have been publicly condemning the govt. for not reining in the foreign based speculators who are the main driver of the escalating house prices and ALL of them are conceding that the most significant group are from China. The only people NOT conceding this fact is the govt. who are manipulating the figures in an effort to conceal the truth. Everyone knows it except Chuck – and his little band of fellow rwnj cohorts.

        • Chuck

          Sorry Anne but foreign based speculators are NOT the main driver of escalating house prices.

          Twyford took a leaf out of Winston’s bag of tricks and ran with it.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Sorry Anne but foreign based speculators are NOT the main driver of escalating house prices.

            Ah, more lies from a RWNJ – as expected.

            The evidence is that foreign speculators are pushing up house prices here in NZ, in Canada and other places around the world.

            But, of course, you knew that.

            • Chuck

              “Sorry Anne but foreign based speculators are NOT the main driver of escalating house prices.”

              Draco please read again…”NOT the main driver”.

              Any buyer in the market (when supply is limited) can be said to have an effect on escalating house prices.

              So to be clear – are you saying that foreign based speculators are THE main driver of escalating house prices in Auckland?

              • Poission

                46% of residential house sales in AK are to investors.

                Of that number 5% are to offshore domiciled foreign investors,and a further 15% to temporary visa holders aka foreign investors.

                remove 20% of the players from any market it will contract ie elasticity you do understand that part don’t you?

                • Anne

                  Regardless of the source, I guess they are the govt’s manipulated/massaged figures you are quoting. The govt’s lying through their teeth and anyone with any nous knows it. Hence the reason so many financial and real estate experts have been going public with the truth. Easy enough to disguise their foreign-based credentials by arranging for NZ based associates to ostensibly buy the properties while the money is coming from off-shore investors who remain incognito.

                  • Poission

                    Yes the delay in the second round of money laundering legislation in which nz is an outlier suggests incompetence,or a requirement to check with the governments corporate sponsors.

                • Chuck

                  There were 57,678 property transfers in total over the three months (second quarter). Only 1749 of them involved foreign buyers and 1560 foreign sellers, both including trusts and businesses.

              • Draco T Bastard

                So to be clear – are you saying that foreign based speculators are THE main driver of escalating house prices in Auckland?


                1. They’ve got far more money than the majority of people in NZ
                2. As Poission points out, even a small increase in demand will adversely affect house prices and 20% isn’t a small increase.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.3.2

        Ah, so you admit that it’s an attack piece.

    • Stuart Munro 9.4

      Quin is on a par with the Conservative’s Stringer. Even his friends don’t like him.

  10. joe90 10

    The man truly is a pig.

    Secret Service had to protect MSNBC’s Katy Tur after Donald Trump incited crowd against her https://t.co/VVLZBaoU95 via @dailynewsbin— mdtoorder (@mdtoorder) August 10, 2016

    • Grumpy 10.1

      You need to get out more…..as in don’t get all your information from the same sources.

    • Bearded Git 11.1

      That would be one of the leaders of the block that is level with National in the polls and rising.

    • TC 11.2

      Vance shows shes just another jonolist, like we needed proof.

    • whateva next? 11.3

      Vance responds to a tweet offering a more rational view of the feedback Nash got from Little:
      “the point I was trying to make is there should be room for more ideas and less nastiness!”
      Talk about “nasty” Andrea?

  11. joe90 12

    Better late than never – Zeynep Tufekci updated her article on the dumping of the details of female voters in Turkey.


  12. joe90 13

    Bolton, huh.

    Trump: 'We Are Seriously Thinking About' Picking John Bolton as Secretary of State – @BreitbartNews https://t.co/WhAjcQMBtR— Indira Lakshmanan (@Indira_L) August 11, 2016


  13. Dickhead alan duff gets some learning from Leonie Pihama

    “Each column written by Alan Duff is yet another repetitive Once Were Warriors theme. We continually get themes of: Once Were Losers, Once Were Whingers, Once Were Drop Outs… the list goes on and within it the themes continue to reflect what is in fact Alan Duff’s inability to grasp the fundamental underpinning issues of the impact of colonisation, and how that has specific and particular consequences for Indigenous Nations. This is somewhat ironic, given that the position Duff takes in virtually every column is a reflection of those impacts, and are reflected constantly as the justification for Māori people being bashed by him on regular basis. Perhaps it is because Mr Duff has never taken to the time to seek out pathways for understanding his own self hatred and the hegemony of that. Hegemony, being the internalisation of self hatred, and the internalisation of the belief that to be successful in this society is to act, write, speak and live as the reflection of your coloniser (The definition is provided here as the column indicates that Mr Duff has difficulty with such terms as hegemony, colonisation and imperialist arrogance – all of which are states of being that are reflected in Mr Duffs column).”


    Hat tip – Kim

  14. ianmac 15

    @ No Right Turn:
    “(Clinton on TPPA) I oppose it now, I’ll oppose it after the election and I’ll oppose it as President,” the Democratic nominee told supporters at a factory in Michigan.”

    Wow! Hope it works out that way. Meanwhile Key is going ahead with a rushed omnibus Bill to change our laws to fit TPPA.

    Ps. Forgot to post this this morning. Too late?

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