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Open Mike 12/09/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 12th, 2016 - 183 comments
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183 comments on “Open Mike 12/09/2016 ”

  1. Paul 1

    Brilliant cartoon.
    ‘A problem that is bigger than The Chiefs – In fact bigger than NZ rugby.’


  2. Ad 2

    I enjoyed this one, which was put up as weekend reading on TransportBlog:


    LPrent has commented on similar patterns before.

    • ianmac 2.1

      Ad. A decline in population numbers would be a good thing for humanity, though the Economists demand growth to feed the Economy.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Quoting article:

      19th and 20th century growth and development was so transformative that it now constitutes our only available inventory of intellectual history, and (understandably) dominates our expectations. When will interest rates return to normal? Why are central banks not letting interest rates rise? And, look at all these awful policy decisions preventing growth? These sentiments are artifacts; signatures of recency bias and the availability heuristic. In an excellent post last year by Neil Irwin at the New York Time’s Upshot blog, Why Very Low Interest Rates May Stick Around, it’s gently pointed out that high interest rates, not low interest rates, are history’s anomaly.

      Low to no interest rates and growth are the norm. The high interest rates and high growth that we’ve had for the last couple of centuries is an anomaly. We’re now heading back to the norm and, shortly after that, we’ll be in de-growth as population declines.

    • joe90 3.1

      On a close to 30°C August day a woman wearing body armour feels crook – RWNJ noise machine goes nuts.

      • Lanthanide 3.1.1

        Yes, the noise machine at work, but she wasn’t wearing body armour.

        I think questions about her health are warranted, but of course the campaign is going to downplay any event as being inconsequential – which only eggs on their opponents who think they’re trying to cover things up. Most likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.

      • RedLogix 3.1.2

        Personally this still sits in the ‘not enough information’ category; but regardless these ‘incidents’ are starting to pile up. One more and I’d suggest serious questions will have to be answered.

        The fact of the MSM running with this is a new development as well. Even if it does turn out to be nothing more than right wing ‘noise’ the only reason why it’s getting traction the deep underlying lack of trust in anything that comes out of the ‘establishment’ these days. Which is exactly the reason why Trump has more than two supporters.

        It has to be hoped Clinton is ok. It would be an appalling turn of events at this stage for her to be forced out for this reason.

        And for a woman of her age there may well be a simple and very understandable reason. Just no-one wants to say it out loud.

        • joe90

          Yeah, these ‘incidents’ are starting to pile up.

          Revealed last 2 days: Trump laundered donations, lied to IRS, lied about helping at Ground Zero But bad wk for HC https://t.co/mRWvdRWRlj— Scott Gilmore (@Scott_Gilmore) September 11, 2016

          • Colonial Viper

            On the upside, Clinton’s staffer who wiped the last copy of her emails AFTER a Congressional evidence preservation subpoena has been given immunity by the Department of Justice.

          • RedLogix

            You know full well that questions about a candidates health strike directly at their eligibility to run for office.

            The Guardian reports:

            The temperature in New York City on Sunday morning was in the low 80s fahrenheit, around 28C, with relatively low humidity of around 46% .

            That is warmish by kiwi standards, but certainly not unusual or at all extreme. Clearly something has happened here. No-one but you is denying it. What none of us know yet is whether this has any physical significance for Clinton herself. It may be something trivial, or not.

            Certainly given that the RW machine has already attacked her on her health, it’s a damned unfortunate coincidence that this acknowledged “medical incident’ lends credence. And as we know in politics, perception is all.

            • joe90

              No-one but you is denying it.

              Saying a woman felt crook and noting that the noise machine is cranking up is a denial, really?.

              On a close to 30°C August day a woman wearing body armour feels crook – RWNJ noise machine goes nuts.

              • RedLogix

                OK so ‘denial’ was the wrong word. How about ‘defensive’?

                • joe90

                  Nah, sickened.

                  Sickened to the back teeth by the way supposedly decent left leaning folk are cheering for a dishonest racist hate-mongering narcissist.

                  • Karen

                    + 1 joe90.

                  • RedLogix

                    I’ve always solidly and vigorusly cheered for Sanders … I’m surprised you’ve concluded that even he is a ” dishonest racist hate-mongering narcissist”.

                    • joe90

                      I’m surprised you’ve concluded

                      That’s you being willfully disingenuous, dude….

                    • RedLogix

                      I’m happy to stand on my record here as being a consistent Sanders supporter. And at no point have I ever expressed any explicit support for Trump whatsoever. None. Zero.Zip.

                      Feel free to search this site for any comment by me explicitly and positively backing your contention. Simply being critical of Clinton does not count as being supportive of Trump by implication.

                      Otherwise you owe me an apology. And you can stop being sickened if it will make you feel better.

                      If Clinton really does have a significant health issue (and that possibility can no longer be ruled out) … then it is very much in the Democrats interests to come clean now.

                    • joe90

                      Otherwise you owe me an apology.

                      I suppose had I referred explicitly to you cheering, you’d have a point. But I didn’t.

                      btw, here’s the doctors note

                      Statement from Hillary Clinton's doctor says Clinton was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday pic.twitter.com/xfEy9wloaz— Bradd Jaffy (@BraddJaffy) September 11, 2016

                    • RedLogix

                      And now you want to tell me Hillary Clinton is perfectly healthy, but she’s just had pneumonia?

                      At her age that can be pretty serious. Why the hell is she working at all?

                      And just to be clear … you really were not implying I’m a Trump supporter in any shape or form?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      She was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday and was out standing in the open for an hour plus on Sunday??? Normally pneumonia (i.e. a lung infection) in an older person would require several days bed rest as a precaution.

                    • joe90

                      you really were not implying I’m a Trump supporter in any shape or form?


                    • RedLogix

                      @ joe

                      It’s worth expanding on this a bit. I completely agree that Trump is exactly what you describe him as; a ” dishonest racist hate-mongering narcissist”. The ONLY good thing I can think to say about him is that he possibly less vile than all the other candidates the Repugs stood up in their primary.

                      But it’s a mistake to think this is ALL he is. I’ve loathed John Key from the moment I clapped eyes on his corporate shark, fake social smile. But equally I’ve also consistently argued here the left makes a serious mistake to underestimate him.

                      And we also make a serious mistake when we ignore the reasons WHY so many Amercan’s will support and vote for Trump. And the complementary set of reasons why so many are suspicious of Clinton. Or as the educated and professional young American I met some weeks back said, “It’s no longer a case of the lessor of two evils, but a choice of two frank evils”.

                      Trump is a vile person, but he says things that resonate with many Americans who deeply distrust their political establishment. By contrast Clinton is a way more decent human being, but she solidly represents an establishment that is far from decent.

                      If someone put the rhetorical Colt 45 to my head and told me to vote, I’d pick Clinton in a heartbeat or less. But equally I can understand how someone else may well come to the opposite conclusion. And I believe trying to shame and bully them into silence for making that choice probably doesn’t help.

                    • McFlock

                      Normally pneumonia (i.e. a lung infection) in an older person would require several days bed rest as a precaution.

                      Normally, people aren’t running for President.

                      You would have been printing up her death certificate if she’d missed turning up to commemorate 9/11, and Trump would have said she was in mourning for bin laden.

                      btw – 28C usually stuffs me completely.

                  • + 1 they arent decent joe they are fake fakes

                  • Gabby

                    She’s not that bad.

        • mosa

          If she is forced out by an” appalling turn of events” would Kaine step in or will they talk to Bernie ?

        • Sanctuary

          “…The fact of the MSM running with this is a new development…”

          Except it isn’t. The “swift boating” noise machine has been hammering at the big lie since forever. All this does is legitimise the MSM jumping on board the rumour mill, and laundering it into mainstream fact.

          The United States is completely fucked as long as it remains in a state of polarised political fantasy. The US right is the complete rejection of the enlightenment. It is very much a mirror of ISIS. If you think that is a bit strong, imagine what sort of country the USA will be if Trump wins. Mass arrests, ethnic cleansing, openly cosying up to lawless kleptocrats like Putin and the butchers of Beijing, it will all be on the table straight away, and logic of extremism would see a whole lot more as well before long.

          Here is a bold prediction: If Trump wins, and he carries on like he has on campaign, the US military (as the last functioning bi-partisan organ of the US federal government) will act to remove him. It wouldn’t have to be a rebellion – the merest hint of refusing to obey orders will see him forced from office by an establishment with to much to lose in having the constitution – with it’s fat cat jobs and sinecures – shredded.

      • James 3.1.3

        If (and there is no comment I have seen backing thecomment) that she was wearing body armour – so we’re the many police etc who were there. Didn’t see them being carried out and being dumped in a van.

        Any reasonable presidential hopeful with comments about here health would have gone to the hospital and been checked out and provided a “doctors note” as opposed to hiding at her daughters home and then a weak photo opportunity later walking down the street.

        This will cause more questions and she could have stopped it – but nope.

        • Psycho Milt

          Where do people get the idea that only a seriously ill person could faint from heatstroke after standing for a while at some ceremony in 30-degree heat? Have you never seen it happen yourself?

          • Colonial Viper

            28 deg C heat, low humidity (46%), a medium light crowd (it wasn’t a mosh pit).

            A healthy person should be able to regulate their own body temp pretty easily in those circumstances without staggering and falling to their knees.

          • RedLogix

            It was actually 28 degC, and the humidity a comfortable 46%. That is warm, but definitely not oppressive. Air temperature by itself is an insufficient measure of our ability to regulate body heat, you have to take into account humidity to obtain ‘wet bulb’ temperature.


            I can’t rule out that the weather did play some role in what happened, but certainly it cannot have been the dominant factor because presumably there were many other people at the same event and there are no reports of mass faintings or stumblings.

            • marty mars

              People faint, haven’t you watched clips of highly trained soldiers fainting, what is wrong with them?

              • Colonial Viper

                She didn’t faint, she didn’t lose consciousness.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    because you can’t walk to and climb into a van after you have lost consciousness

                    • There are many ways to faint including and up to collapsing.

                    • McFlock

                      Really, CV? At what level of consciousness is this impossible? How do you know this? What duration of this reduced consciousness is required to meet your non-medical threshold of “fainted”? How are you able to diagnose this level and duration of reduced consciousness from an obstructed shot of the back of her head?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Hey McFlock, impressed with your attempts to liken Clinton’s loss of motor control, lower body strength and balance over several seconds to some kind of non-insidious fainting spell; maybe that’s all it is.

                    • McFlock

                      Nice deflection from the questions about your diagnostic process.

                      I guess if it ducks like a quack…

                      Hey, how do you know she experienced loss of motor control and balance issues and lower body strength? Any one of those could be functionally indistinguishable to someone observing from a distance with an obstructed view.

                      You’re just making shit up.

              • RedLogix

                Usually because they’ve been required to stand rigidly at attention for hours, virtually motionless. Thermal stress is only part of it.

                As I said above, if the conditions at the event were the dominant and root cause of what has happened to Clinton here, then logically we would have reports of many. many other people fainting as well.

                But we don’t do we?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  People faint for all sorts of reasons, medical and situational. These reasons include:

                  …fasting long hours, taking in too little food and fluids, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, high g-force, emotional distress, and lack of sleep. Wikipedia.

                  None of this can be diagnosed by video.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    How is it even a “faint”? She was walking, though staggering, and was able to step up into a van with help.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Marty already answered this question. So did McFlock. I suggest you try Wikipedia or a search for syncope at Google Scholar.

                      Nah, ask your gut, your gut has more nerve endings than your brain.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I personally have no doubt that there will be more health incidents over the next 2 months as her public schedule intensifies significantly.

                      Nah, ask your gut, your gut has more nerve endings than your brain.

                      Not quite true, but not entirely false either. The enteric nervous system has a massive neuronal network.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke



            • Psycho Milt

              It was actually 28 degC, and the humidity a comfortable 46%. That is warm, but definitely not oppressive.

              Not in Australia, maybe. Here in Palmerston North, where we’re used to a somewhat more reasonable climate, when it hits 28 degrees I turn on the air conditioning and lie on the couch.

            • Poission

              In NYC you only collapse from heat if an aeroplane hits you.

        • joe90

          The birther nonsense started when folk who were just asking questions demanded that Obama release his birth certificate.

          How did that work out for him?

          • Colonial Viper

            Sanders was always the stronger candidate, and the Democratic hierarchy should have picked him.

    • ianmac 3.2

      Remember that Reagan was suffering dementia in his 2nd term and carried on being President. Crazy that he could?

      • Colonial Viper 3.2.1

        Not really, he just did what he was told.

      • seeker 3.2.2

        John key has suffered a couple of ‘pass outs’ and still carries on. ( sorry can’t find sources as in a rush.)

        • chris73

          I think its because people realise how hard he works and as such are more forgiving

          • Siobhan

            Well back in 2013 he fainted at some restaurant, due to jet lag after a holiday in Hawaii..poor man. Interestingly I think he may have been treated at a public hospital, you would think he’d go private, but I guess he’s always up for a freebie from the taxpayer.

            • Lanthanide

              “but I guess he’s always up for a freebie from the taxpayer.”

              John Key does pay a fair amount of tax, so he’s no more or less deserving of public healthcare than any other member of society.

              Also, public hospitals deal with all emergency care; private only deal with non-emergency stuff.

              • Siobhan

                Actually its not that I don’t think the wealthy should have free healthcare…it’s that, in the case of Key, they are willing to let whole sectors of Health care go to the dogs, safe in the knowledge that should they require serious health care they will go private.

                I think all politicians should receive free health care.
                I think they should stand by their work and not have Private Health care.

                • Lanthanide

                  1. Funding healthcare at a level that could get everyone seen-to for whatever their condition, within 7 days, would be prohibitively expensive for the country
                  2. So offer an affordable public service, that does a very good job, even if it can’t administer initial treatment to all patients within 7 days
                  3. Allow those who have the money, to pay the extra money to get faster treatment

                  Also, politicians are on the public purse. If they’re sitting around sick for 4 months off-work, then they’re not working for the public, wasting public money. Alternatively if they pay extra for the private healthcare they need, they can be on their feet quicker and back to serving the country.

                  This latter point suggests that Parliamentary Services should be paying for private health insurance for all MPs. Unsure if they do or not.

                  • Siobhan

                    This latter point suggests that Parliamentary Services should be paying for private health insurance for all MPs….Politicians aren’t the only people ‘serving’ the country, so how about police, teachers, health professionals, rubbish collectors, army, etc etc.
                    Infact any person out of the loop of work is a hindrance to the economy…so how about, oh, I know this will sound ‘out there’, but how about Fully Publicly Funded Health care.

                    By the by, I’m not sure where the seven days come into it…I just mean care in a timely manner, with conditions being treated early rather than latter…which would have so many economic advantages it’s hard to know where to begin.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Politicians aren’t the only people ‘serving’ the country, so how about police, teachers, health professionals, rubbish collectors, army, etc etc.

                      I was answering your point when you said politicians should be banned from using private healthcare.

                      I know this will sound ‘out there’, but how about Fully Publicly Funded Health care.

                      Well, what do you mean by that? What metrics are you going to use to decide when it is Fully Funded or not? How much are you willing to spend? If that means the current mid-level rate has to go up from 17.5% to 30% to afford it, would you still support that?

                      By the by, I’m not sure where the seven days come into it…I just mean care in a timely manner, with conditions being treated early rather than latter…which would have so many economic advantages it’s hard to know where to begin.

                      I had to come up with some sort of concrete term beyond “treat people who are sick” because it could be argued that our current system does that. It’s pretty much impossible to argue that our current system will give initial treatment to anyone with any condition within 7 days of presenting, hence why I used that as a benchmark.

                    • Siobhan

                      This is a reply to Lanthanide’s comment,
                      “It’s pretty much impossible to argue that our current system will give initial treatment to anyone with any condition within 7 days of presenting”, it’s hard to know where to start, but how about this article http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/73956930/hip-and-knee-patients-asked-to-endure-more-pain-before-surgery–labour

                      or this

                      You will no doubt tell me these are ‘elective surgery’, but if you have a medical condition that means you cannot work it is hardly something you are selfishly ‘electing’ to do. It is necessary.

                      And yes, up the spending. If all companies and corporations paid their fair share of tax we could afford it.

                      Having people sitting at home on benefits while they magically disappear from waiting lists is not the cheap alternative.

                    • Lanthanide

                      “And yes, up the spending. If all companies and corporations paid their fair share of tax we could afford it.”

                      That money has to come from somewhere. Where are you proposing the money will come from?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Most of those brand new US dollars are issued by the Federal Reserve to the tune of hundreds of millions a month.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Why? We all pay for the medical training and infrastructure that enable the system to function. How does diverting our resources to monied queue-jumpers improve matters?

                    • Lanthanide

                      Sorry, not sure what you’re talking about.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Are the private hospitals going to set up their own medical schools, fully funded by their investors and clients? Or will they wait for the taxpayer to educate their staff for them?

                    • Lanthanide

                      How many doctors do you think would attend our public medical schools (for which they pay big student loans, don’t forget), if there was no private medical work available in NZ?

                      How many of our trained doctors do you think would fly off overseas, if we had 0 private practice available?

                      Most surgeons and other specialists in NZ work in both the public and private system.

                      As usual, it’s a complex situation, there is no single “right” answer.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      In our health system as it stands today? Moot point.

                    • Red []

                      OAB answer is Cuba, just don’t let them leave OAB has numerous examples and studies to show there are no unintended consequences to socialist policy, any such discussion to highlight as such will result in accusation of lies, bigotry parroting and questioning your ancestoral lineage, so don’t bother

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Red, no, you can’t conceive of my opinion so don’t try. I’m not sure being subject to overt super-power bullying is a great position for any country to be in so no, I wouldn’t go the Cuban route.

                      Right now, the privatisation disease is rife in our health system. Cut it out, then burn it. Show Compass the door.

                      As the largest domestic player in the economy, we (the government, on our behalf) have every right to establish and maintain a health care system that makes private provision a very specialised market indeed. Not banned, just struggling to hold onto its market-share in the face of excellent public service provision.

                      The National Party has shown itself to be utterly incompetent to build houses, let alone hospitals.

                    • Red []

                      Why not private and public side by side forcing each other to compete and be efficient

                    • One Anonymous Bloke


                      That’s what I’m proposing: greedy troughers who just happen to be members of Cabinet Club can compete on the open market for a change.

                      If privatisation worked, it would have done so by now. It doesn’t work and if you believe it does you really need to stop lying to yourself because I got the message before the failed experiment even began.

  3. Garibaldi 4

    I heard on RNZ this morning that NZ is going to give ten million dollars (from memory) to the Pacific Islands to encourage more people to play sport. Surely there are greater problems than bloody professional sport? Unbloodybelievable!

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      Sounds like a soft, unaccountable bribe

    • It’s a National thing – the thinking is that PIs are thickos who can’t be educated, so the only way any of them will get a well-paid job is as a professional sportsman (what the women are supposed to beats me – cook, clean, raise kids and go to church, I guess). So this is like philanthropy. And also what CV said.

    • Red 4.3

      Not when PI countries biggest forgein exchange earnings comes from overseas remittances, and a big and growing chunk of that been professional sportsmen. therefore it is an investment in the unique sporting capability of PIs

      • Colonial Viper 4.3.1

        Not when PI countries biggest forgein exchange earnings comes from overseas remittances, and a big and growing chunk of that been professional sportsmen.

        What a weird and unlikely rationale.

        • Red

          Why, if we help train professional sportsmen that can make millions who then support their families at home why is this different from any other investment in people

          • Red

            Note also CV not my rationale but Samoan primeminster on announcement of investment with Jk this morning on One

            • Colonial Viper

              I guess his people didn’t need that money for water treatment or cyclone defences

              • Red

                I do not think giving people opportunity is a bad thing, I also don’t think it’s an argument it is one or the other, this is not the only aid that goes to the islands so it’s on top of that so can’t be a bad thing

  4. BlueSky 5

    Anyone else see the correlation between Apples money in the bank and the fact they do not pay taxes fairly. I wonder how many other multinational buying sprees are funded from money that would have otherwise been paid in tax to provide the environment which enable them to make there money.

  5. Anne 6

    So Frank Bainimarama and his police thugs have arrested Opposition leaders and thrown them into prison. Some have been released but others are still there. Their crime? They organised a forum and talked with one one another. But its ok folks. John Key says it is a democratically elected government (yeah? I thought it was more like the voters didn’t dare vote any other way) and its quite common for governments to have a reshuffle from time to time. In other words he’s not concerned.


    • ianmac 6.1

      What the MPs fear is that under the Constitution, if any charges are laid then they cannot stand for Parliament. And under Frank’s rule charges can be laid about anything real or trumped up.

  6. rhinocrates 7


    Nearly 20% of Trump supporters consider the abolition of slavery a mistake:




    A YouGov/Economist poll in January asked respondents if they approved or disapproved of “the executive order that freed all slaves in the states that were in rebellion against the federal government.

    That’s alongside the Holocaust deniers (or supporters!) and the KKK all actively endorsing Trump and Andrew Shannon, head of Breitbart, which has direct Neo-N— links and is now running Trump’s campaign.

    Pro-slavery, pro-N—, pro genocide. That increasingly describes a large portion of Trump’s support and he’s knowingly capitalising on it.

    • joe90 7.1

      Ta-Nehisi Coates weighs in.

      Hillary Clinton Was Politically Incorrect, but She Wasn’t Wrong About Trump’s Supporters

      Clinton said half of Donald Trump’s supporters were prejudiced. If anything, her numbers are too low.


      Much like Trump’s alleged opposition to the Iraq War, this not an impossible claim to investigate. We know, for instance, some nearly 60 percent of Trump’s supporters hold “unfavorable views” of Islam, and 76 percent support a ban on Muslims entering the United States. We know that some 40 percent of Trump’s supporters believe blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites. Two-thirds of Trump’s supporters believe the first black president in this country’s history is not American. These claim are not ancillary to Donald Trump’s candidacy, they are a driving force behind it.


      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        I’m sure Clinton’s comment on half of Trump’s supporters being an irredeemable basket of deplorables is going to be a big hit with the liberal left 10% in the USA.

      • ianmac 7.1.2

        And more than 50% of all Americans believe in Ghosts, Heaven and Hell.

    • Colonial Viper 7.2

      But it was the Democrats – Bill Clnton in fact, who signed the Omnibus Bill which criminalised Blacks for what had been minor crimes and put an extra 2M blacks into the for-profit prison system.

      That’s the new Jim Crow, thanks to Clinton and the Democrats.

      • rhinocrates 7.2.1

        The Omnibus Bill and NAFTA were both terrible and should be repealed immediately.

        However, every time a criticism of Trump is made or there is yet another revelation about the of his evil support base, you divert with a weird version of “But Laaaaaabour…”

        So let’s be direct. Suppose the YouGov/Economist poll were being conducted.

        Do you:

        (A) Support slavery
        (B) Think the Holocaust never happened
        (C) Think the Holocaust was cool
        (D) A and B
        (E) A and C
        (F) Shrug, don’t mind being associated with the above
        (G) Dread the resurgence in support for N—sm and slavery

        Unless I’m mistaken, you’ve indicated F already.

        • Colonial Viper

          I gave up on the Left’s internal social qualification scheme of needing to jump up and down in outrage over this and that irrelevancy at every opportunity, or else you are a bad bad person.

          And I’ve been opposing the West’s billion dollar support of the unconstitutional neo-Nzi far right Banderist backed junta in Kiev for a couple of years now while most Standardistas just let it sail by without remark because you know, anti-Russia.

          • rhinocrates

            Concern about active support in the Trump campaign for N–sm, genocide and slavery is “Irrelevant” and worthy of a “Shrug” and yet another disingenuous diversion.

            Sickening. Probably sick.

            • Colonial Viper

              As I said, I’ve given up on the left’s internal social qualification scheme of outrage at this, condemning that, etc.

              Clinton is backed by neocon banksters, corporations and weapon manufacturers who impoverish, kill, maim and poison millions of people in the developing world, implode entire countries and are intent on escalating nuclear military tensions with China and Russia.

              Ahead of this, I pick Trump any day of the week.

            • Garibaldi

              Rhinocrates….I think that we who can’t back Hillary know that Trump is a bloody loud-mouthed idiot and makes the most ridiculous comments etc….. but we also believe he won’t get to carry them out, through a variety of reasons . The small glimmer of hope for him is that he wants to stick it to the Establishment (and I’ll admit that’s not enough to hang on to).
              The problem with that ” oh so genuine ” Hillary is that she is more than capable of covertly being worse than Trump and, basically, is such a warmongering bitch that she will set off nuclear obliteration. It is very hard to see any glimmer of hope of Hillary being a good President.
              The only hope we had was Sanders.
              So ,imo, neither Clinton nor Trump are acceptable. If I had to pick the lesser of two evils ( which is still evil) I would probably opt for stupid bloody Trump in the feint hope he will stick it to Wall St et al.

              • rhinocrates

                Garibaldi, you won’t see any defence of Hillary from me and I think that Sanders should have been the nominee. I don’t see Clinton doing anything better than kicking problems further down the road – at best.

                OK, I want to have a look at a couple of points you make here:

                but we also believe he won’t get to carry them out, through a variety of reasons

                I don’t know what these reasons are, but evil and stupid can be as dangerous as evil and competent.

                However, even assuming Trump is ineffectual, as I’ve repeatedly said, he’s riding a wave of outright, unashamed f*scism. If he were to be abducted by aliens tomorrow, the forces that he have sponsored have already been unleashed. There are plenty now, some even worse, who see themselves legitimised already.

                The small glimmer of hope for him is that he wants to stick it to the Establishment (and I’ll admit that’s not enough to hang on to).

                All very well, but there will inevitably be collateral damage. Bloody collateral damage. Unfortunately the elites have got where they are by ensuring that damage is always diverted to those who have the least resources and who make the most convenient scapegoats. Jews for example have been the historical favourite.

                If President Trump fails in his plans and finds his support slipping, his hounds will go hunting. They’re already howling.

                Also, really do not overfocus on particular personalities, either Clinton as the Wicked Witch of the West or Trump as knight in gilded armour or useful battering ram. We know what’s behind Clinton, but what’s behind Trump is far greater than him too. Take either of them away and others will fill their place and those scarecrows will be worshipped as idols too, and they too will be replaceable. Look instead at the forces behind both of them.

                The American f*scist/”alt-right” is a diverse rabble, running from Silicon Valley trolls to Christian Dominionists and in their apocalyptic fantasies, nuclear war is a necessity. You’ll just see worse capitalism and cronyism if the first side dominates and if the other does, well… they think that God will take them away to Heaven if it all turns to radioactive custard. Pity about everyone else.

              • rhinocrates

                There’s an old proverb: If you desire vengeance, first dig two graves.

                If Trump is an instrument of vengeance against evil, don’t assume that there won’t be evil consequences.

                However, it’s quite clear that CV’s resentment has turned to obsessive nihilism.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Nihilism? You’re clever but don’t outsmart yourself. Clinton is the warmonger neocon who will keep ratcheting up tensions with Russia in Eastern Europe and China in the South China Sea to the nth degree simply to sell more weapons, even at the risk of starting a nuclear exchange.

                  That’s nihilism.

                  • McFlock

                    Whereas Trump’s attempt at international diplomacy went so well that the minister who invited him to Mexico had to resign.

                    And this is the guy you want to negotiate with the Russians, Chinese and North Koreans. What can possibly go wrong /sarc

                    • rhinocrates

                      Trump’s been saying for a while that NATO partners should be paying more for their defence. That’s sure to please Lockheed Martin’s shareholders. They won’t be spending money on local programmes – America used its muscle to kill local programmes like Canada’s Avro Arrow and Britain’s TSR 2 so they could sell American weapons. Even now Britain’s Queen Elizabeth class carriers will have F-35s, not navalised Eurofighters or second generation Harriers.

                      Meanwhile one interpretation of Japan’s Mitsubishi X-2 programme is that it’s to demonstrate a command of stealth technology so they can be trusted with F-22s sold or built under license (as the F-15J was) The USAF has been asking about reopening the F-22 production line. Again, an escalation of Japanese military presence is within Trump’s declared intention.

                      Clinton won’t be any better than her predecessors, but Trump’s the one who said that they should buy more… and that means American.

                    • rhinocrates

                      In short, Trump wouldn’t put a stop to weapons proliferation, indeed his policy entails the opposite.

    • save nz 7.3

      @ rhino crates – Nearly 20% of Trump supporters consider the abolition of slavery a mistake:

      30 years of Charter schools in the US. That’s what happens when you allow ‘special schools’ teaching their own curriculum with no oversights to be allowed to flourish. i.e. Poorly educated population who want to bring back slavery.

      Although some might argue that neoliberalism has bought back slavery anyway, just not in plain sight.

  7. The Chairman 8

    Which candidate in the Auckland mayoralty race do you think most aligns with the desires of the left?

    • The Chairman 8.1

      Penny Bright?

    • DoublePlusGood 8.2

      Probably (sigh) Penny Bright.

      • The Chairman 8.2.1

        Yet, City Vision (the coalition of Labour, Greens and community independents) are endorsing Goff. Go figure?

        • DoublePlusGood

          Of course they are. Bright aligns best with what the left broadly want to achieve in Auckland. But people aren’t ever going to get behind her since she mostly just grandstands and refuses to even pay her rates.

          • The Chairman

            “Bright aligns best with what the left broadly want to achieve in Auckland. But people aren’t ever going to get behind her…”

            Which tends to be the problem with the left. If we aren’t prepared to support those standing for us, we’ll never get the outcomes we desire.

            • DoublePlusGood

              People will support a strong candidate on the left, but Bright is not a strong candidate.

              • The Chairman

                Goff isn’t a strong candidate for the left, yet he’s getting the endorsement and is expected to win.

  8. James 9

    So now Hillary Clintons doctor is saying she has pneumonia.

    Her health will continue to be in the spotlight for the rest of the campaign.

  9. Tautoko Mangō Mata 10

    This is an interesting view written by Rob Howse (posted on the International Law and Policy Blog) of the possibility of TPP with US ISDS reservation being pushed through congress. It still leaves the dead rats of higher pharmaceutical prices, extended copyright and USA-written standards on food, no country of origin labels on beef, etc so is still a bad deal that we should continue to oppose.

    “Could the Critics of ISDS Save TPP? An opportunity for Hillary Clinton to strike a new national bargain on trade”

    Proposing to President Obama that he present TPP to Congress on the basis of an ISDS reservation would turn Hillary Clinton from a perceived insincere opponent of TPP into an authentic supporter of better, more progressive trade agreements. Being handed the opportunity to secure his legacy in Asia on such reasonable terms, President Obama would appear obstinate, inflexible and unaccommodating if he were to reject the reservation. ( In the case of the Iran deal, the administration was endlessly inventive in the way it adjusted the structure of the accord to address critics and get Congressional approval.)

    My own view is that I share many of the critics’ concerns with investor-state arbitration (lack of predictable jurisprudence, no arbitrator accountability and professional standards, weak conflict of interest and ethics rules, lack of diversity in the arbitrator pool etc.) but I would prefer an alternative that preserves international dispute settlement accessible to non-state actors including investors while addressing these problems. An ISDS reservation might well speed up and fortify efforts to find a different way of guaranteeing international norms of non-discrimination, due process and access to justice in the investment area. For me the problem is that an ISDS reservation is not enough to make TPP a meritorious agreement, in the sense of moving in a progressive direction on trade. But add a couple of additional reservations/declarations and I could be persuaded to regard TPP as a worthy compromise, the basis for a united Democratic front against Trump’s aggressive protectionist stance.


  10. Siobhan 11

    How about the massive silence in the Media generally about The Dakaota Pipeline protests, and now the arrest warrant for the journalist Amy Goodman who dared to film the whole incident. Oh yes, and an arrest warrant for Jill Stein, a candidate in the Gloriously Democratic American Elections. Though she is a tagger and I know how property owners feel about that.

    I’ve seen so many posts on Facebook crowing about how Obama is stepping up to the plate over this issue…yet the message here is ‘Journalists stand clear…DO NOT report the news that doesn’t fit the narrative’.
    And where is dear Hilary on this issue.
    Sure, I don’t expect to see her at the protest, the heat is more than enough to give her the vapours…but surely it’s an excellent issue for a apparent Liberal such as herself.

    Land of the Free…..unlike Fiji. But only by the slimmest of margins.


    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      The US has always been a dictatorship of the rich and the freedom that they espouse only applies to the rich. Everybody else is oppressed and cowed into submission.

      NZ is going the same way.

    • save nz 11.2

      @Siobhan +1

    • mauī 11.3

      This week our tv news thought footage of two American drug addicted parents comatosed in their car with their kid in the backseat was worth 6pm air time instead…

      I have to agree a US oil company deliberating bulldozing native indian sacred sites and unleashing dogs on protestors was much, much more important.

  11. joe90 12

    All class.

    @realDonaldTrump: I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.”— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 12, 2013

  12. weka 13

    All I can say is luckily Clinton wasn’t up on a roof painting. In case that’s a big obscure, all the speculation about Clinton’s health and ignoring of her doctor’s opinions is exactly the same shit that people on medical benefits face all the time and that has serious negative real world consequences for them. People feel entitled to diagnose others based on looking at them. That’s a form of discrimination, ableism and bigotry.

    If people want to talk about Clinton having pneumonia and how that might affect her ability to run for president, have at it. Clinton’s doctors have put that medical diagnosis into the public domain, presumably with her consent. But the online and MSM armchair diagnosing sets dangerous precedents and is yet another example of left wing debate throwing vulnerable people under the bus each time it suits them. The only people who know shit about Clinton’s health are Clinton, her doctors and the people she chooses to share with.

    btw Red, at 69 it’s most likely that Clinton is post-menopausal not menopausal. Unless she uses HRT (which is quite likely given it’s the US), in which case she suspended menopause. The issues raised above stand, as does pointing out that menopause is not an illness.

    • Colonial Viper 13.1

      If she’s not fit to be President she should just come forward and admit it.

      Being out at public events on the campaign trail just 2 days after being diagnosed with pneumonia (a serious lung infection) is nothing short of bad judgement about her own health.

      And people have a right to question this and question this hard.

      • joe90 13.1.1

        Speaking about not fit…….(yes, I know, I know, cheap shot)

        .@realDonaldTrump Donald Trump weighs over 300 pounds. #trump #makeamericagreatagain #UniteBlue pic.twitter.com/GIRwh7pp4Z— TKDMike (@tkdmike) September 11, 2016

      • adam 13.1.2

        Oh do leave off CV. I’m getting sick of your bashing disabled people.

        Many USA presidents have had disabilities, one even won a pretty big damn war! Not to mention the New Deal, or other programs.

        Others too, have done really well, whist some able bodies presidents have been total idiots. James Buchanan comes to mind. He was of sound mind and body – that did stop him from being a dam fool when it came to the issues of slavery and states rights.

        h.r.c may be unlikable for a mutilated of reasons, and I have no problem listing them. Voting record and her association with Wall Street just too name two. BUT, and it’s a big BUT, her disability is not one of them.

        So leave off C.V. because this line of argument makes you look like a retard. (retard – def: an able body person who thinks its OK to abuse disabled people)

        Post script: joe90 same goes for your cheap shot.

        • Colonial Viper

          Oh do leave off CV. I’m getting sick of your bashing disabled people.

          Explain to me how Hillary Clinton is a disabled person just because she has pneumonia?

          Instead of resting after she is diagnosed with pneumonia she keeps pushing herself on the campaign trail and almost keels over, in public, at a 9/11 terrorist attack commemoration.

          That bad judgement is worth a bash.

          • weka

            Just like the painter on the roof. Bash away.

            • Colonial Viper

              how is it you believe that Hillary is somehow disabled or chronically sick like the painter on the roof?

              • weka

                If I thought you were genuinely interested CV, I’d explain the dynamic. But watcing you push this abelist shit from the place your politics sit currently doesn’t lead me to believe that explaining it would mean it would be comprehended.

  13. One Two 15

    ‘News’ is manufactured to create specific responses within the reader

    Some here are so invested in manufactured ‘news’ stories and then argue with others about which poison will kill less people

    Attachment and reaction are the objectives with divide and conquer being the outcome

    Look out, it’s a trap….

  14. Gangnam Style 16

    Now ‘Dirty Politics’ the book/emails are getting mentioned in the very bizzarre case of ‘moral’ Williams & ‘magic hands’ Craig. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11708048

    “Colin Craig trial: Jordan Williams breaks down in tears as mother takes stand”

    “(Jordans mum) also said that Hager’s book had not harmed her son’s reputation because the claims were false, but agreed he had not taken any legal action relating to those claims.”

    • Rodel 16.1

      Excerpt from the Herald- reminds me of some Trump-like TV soap I’ve seen but can’t recall the name of it.

      ‘Williams’ older sister, Catherine Murray.’….’an HR consultant and employment relations advocate also took the stand;
      “When I first heard that Mr Craig was suing my little brother I was like, ‘Oh my gosh who is this big mean guy with lots of money suing him?” ‘

      They do it so well…More popcorn anyone?

  15. Paul 17

    Guillain-Barrē Syndrome patient admitted to hospital.

    A Havelock North woman, in her forties, was admitted to Hawke’s Bay Fallen Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital on Friday, with symptoms that have been confirmed as Guillain-Barrē Syndrome.

    The patient is in a stable condition and is progressing well with the treatment she has received.

    Hawke’s Bay Hospital Physician Andrew Burns said the patient had diarrhoeal symptoms during the Havelock North campylobacter outbreak in August.


    Two thirds of people with Guillain–Barré syndrome have experienced an infection before the onset of the condition. Most commonly these are episodes of gastroenteritis or a respiratory tract infection. In many cases, the exact nature of the infection can be confirmed.Approximately 30% of cases are provoked by Campylobacter jejuni bacteria, which cause diarrhea. A further 10% are attributable to cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5). Despite this, only very few people with Campylobacter or CMV infections develop Guillain–Barré syndrome (0.25–0.65 per 1000 and 0.6–2.2 per 1000 episodes, respectively). The strain of Campylobacter involved may determine the risk of GBS; different forms of the bacteria have different lipopolysaccharides on their surface, and some may induce illness (see below) while others will not.


  16. Gangnam Style 18

    WTF? They take money off women who won’t identify the father of their child? I know it’s opening up a can of worms/right winger wet dream but here’s a petition for anyone interested.



    “These sections impose a weekly sanction of $22 or more on beneficiary sole mothers who have not identified the father of their child. This sanction (in its current form of Section 70A of the Social Security Act) is putting into further hardship families already struggling to survive.
    Currently there are approximately 17,000 children in Aotearoa New Zealand for which this sanction is imposed. Of the 13,616 parents, 13,298 are women, and only 318 are men. 52.8% are Māori. This policy severely disproportionately effects women and Māori. “

  17. Chuck 19

    Onenews poll just released has Andrew Little calling it a “rouge poll”.

    Poor guy…at 26% its as bad as it gets. Oh wait maybe we need to wait until 20% comes up 🙂

    It seems NZF are the winners. National steady as she goes…

    • Johan 19.1

      Have you started drinking already Chuck?

    • Rodel 19.2

      “rouge?” Colmar Brunton is usually more of a blue poll than ‘rouge’ I think.
      1000 people sampled with a a margin of error at …oh ..let’s say 100%

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