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Open mike 13/05/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 13th, 2020 - 209 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

209 comments on “Open mike 13/05/2020 ”

  1. adam 1

    Well in a world gone mad, a world committed to an economic model – which has set to the world up for no more human habitation. Why wouldn't you vote green?

    https://howiehawkins.us/about-angela-walker/

    https://howiehawkins.us/about-howie/

    But then again, you could just support a rapist and a lunatic who support unfettered capitalism – which just keeps handing more and more power to corporations.

    The choice is yours.

    • Dennis Frank 1.1

      Good one, Adam. That man has been on the right track as long as me, and contributed a lot more. Problem is, green politics never really caught on in the USA. The movement there was big – but mostly too alienated to want to get active in representative politics.

      Could that change now? Possibly, but Sanders voters will not be likely to support another socialist. Socialism is too tenuous a belief system to motivate them. Most will follow Sanders and vote Biden. Pragmatism defeats idealism usually.

      • KJT 1.1.1

        Socialism is not a belief system.

        It is how functional countries work.

        The USA has the worlds largest joint social enterprise, their military.

        Not intended for a social purpose, but that is what it does within the USA. It mops up unemployment, and keeps money in local parts of their economy. Without the economic stimulus, from maintaining a military for their endless wars, the US project would fail.

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1

          Socialism is not a belief system.

          "Socialism is a political, social and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management of enterprises." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

          Next question: is a philosophy a belief system? 🤔

          • Gabby 1.1.1.1.1

            No.

          • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.1.2

            Next question: is a philosophy a belief system?

            Political ideology is the only belief system that is worth really examining if how the western world actually operates is your interest, all other belief systems are now well and truly subservient to it.

            Of course this is not what Liberal thinkers (and believers) will tell you, they have been trying to tell (and teach) the world that liberalism is post ideology…or some such nonsense.

          • KJT 1.1.1.1.3

            You could argue that, everything is a belief system.

            A common climate denier argument. "It is just what you believe_.

            I'm a seafarer. The sea doesn't care about beliefs.

            I care about real world effects.

            Despite claims from the USA, about being primarily capitalist, they, at the period of their greatest prosperity, had the largest State/people controlled, if they are a democracy as they claim, "means of production"/ infrastructure on earth.

            More Socialist than the USSR, where the means of production were controlled, in reality, by a tiny, elite. The way the USA , has been heading for several decades, now. To their detriment.

            It doesn't matter what "Philosophy" or beliefs, they call it. It is how countries work, in reality.

            • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1.3.1

              For an ocean sailor, the interaction between the internal belief system and environmental circumstances encountered determines survival. Polynesians were successful in returning home after discovering new lands because of their shared navigational gnosis. How to read star configurations, etc.

              I agree re how societies operate in practice, but that is also consequent of the ruling paradigm (belief system) – currently neoliberalism.

              • KJT

                Polynesian Navigation is an example of empirical science.

                Direct observation. Wave patterns, celestial body positions, wildlife concentrations and direction of travel. (The same as Western navigation, we just had better materials for making instruments. A twig and shell star map is conceptually the same as an, almanack).

                Beliefs, interfered with the progress of Navigation.

                Neo-liberal economics, is a belief system. It has never been proven, by reality. Just as flat earthers and earth centric beliefs, interfered with progress in Navigation, economic belief systems, with no basis beyond theoretical fantasies, interfere with human progress.

                In ideas about Pacific Navigation. Thor Heyerdahl was a theorist. David Lewis and Heke Busby were, sailors.

                • Dennis Frank

                  Empirical science established that belief system. The sailor sets a course for a particular star or constellation if there is a shared societal belief that it will get them to their destination. The sailor trains an apprentice both by showing how to do it and explaining the belief system to them. That's how the transmission of knowledge happens.

                  • KJT

                    It is not a "belief".

                    They know for a "fact", that is how they got to a destination previously.

                    It is, not, a matter of opinion, a belief. It is a fact, confirmed by observation and experience.

                    Just as they knew if land birds headed in a direction, then it is worth looking for land in that direction.

                    Just as Westerners knew since before Af Chapman, look him up, that ships built to a certain standard of stability and strength, nearly always completed their voyages, intact.

                    It is common for self appointed experts to dress things up in mysticism and beliefs, to give them more credibility, hence, economists! but you can be sure that Polynesian, or any other, Navigators, that haven’t a good grasp on reality, don’t last long.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Not according to my reading of history. Islanders passed on their traditions via verbal instruction of younger generations (just like our educators), but when you read their account of that they seem more anecdotal than fact.

                      Anyway, as a physics graduate I have a sceptical view of facts, so I ought to own my bias. It is a fact that some experiments prove the electron is a particle while others prove it is a wave. Since those facts were established a century ago, physics students have been obliged to replicate those experiments to validate the non-zero-sum conclusion. Both explanations are correct (both/and logic). So the belief system resulting from the empirical science authorises physicists to conclude that facts depend on how you view them…

                    • KJT

                      Is that absence of facts, or absence of the knowledge, or instruments, to understand them?

                      We understand the world by what we observe. Though some understand it by making up their own personal, reality. Which makes them dangerous.

                      Newtonian physics is factual, in the terms of explaining what we could observe at the time. As we learn more, we find that they still work, I use it, and Galileo’s physics, every day, but not at the levels of observation, and scales we can now see, with more sensitive instruments.

                    • KJT

                      The accuracy and repeatability of traditional Polynesian Navigation.

                      Finding small islands in the Pacific was difficult, very often, even when I started navigating with Western instruments.

                      The fact, Polynesians managed to repeatedly find small dots in a vast ocean, proves much more than anecdotal, navigation skills.

                      To much of history seems to be an attempt to prove that modern “civilised” people are superior. In fact, as I studied past technology, and navigation in particular, I’m in awe of the sophistication of thought and abilities of so called, “primitive” people with little resources.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yep, I go along with all that. My focus on belief systems as operational entities coordinating large numbers of people was formed intuitively back at university long ago, but informed considerably further by mimetics & meme theory.

                      I've mentioned it before, but Mind Wars by Ian McFadyen articulated it well. When I read it I thought `all rather obvious really, no revelation' – but you know how sometimes there's a delayed reaction to gnosis? Around six months later I realised I was often reflecting on the thesis. It had considerable resonance in later years too. The gist is the colonising effect (via the mind/body interface).

                      Bit like a virus. The thing gets into your brain & takes over your thinking. That's the upside of postmodernism: you relativise beliefs, liberating yourself from control by any particular one. You then view them in terms of utility value, and apply them to suit a set of circumstances on the basis of merit: does this theory fit the facts better, or does this other one?

                    • Dukeofurl

                      "Finding small islands in the Pacific was difficult, very often, even when I started navigating with Western instruments. "

                      That issue was you were a beginner .

                      Meanwhile starting in 1565 a twice yearly galleon would travel twice yearly between Manila and Acapulco and return. It lasted till 1815 when Mexico became independent

                      The route was established by Basque navigator Andrés de Urdaneta using both empirical methods and instruments

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_de_Urdaneta

                      While the Polynesiam navigators could navigate between the islands something like this over the vast open spaces of the Northern Pacific was beyond them. The migration to Hawaii and NZ was an advanced form of island hopping. Being unable to reach Australia or South America showed the limitations of the navigation and the vessels they used.

                    • solkta

                      Polynesians definitely reached South America – study

                      https://www.newshub.co.nz/world/polynesians-definitely-reached-south-america—study-2014102406

                      Did early Polynesians sail to the Americas?

                      A mounting body of evidence suggests that Polynesian voyagers sailed to the distant shores of South America – but the idea remains controversial.

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ourchangingworld/audio/201827415/did-early-polynesians-sail-to-the-americas

                    • joe90

                      advanced form of island hopping.

                      Millennia spent carting mum, kids, livestock and the necessaries across the Polynesian triangle rates a little higher than island hopping.

                      How did the first inhabitants of Easter Island arrive? It is the most remote inhabited island on Earth. The coast of Chile lies 2,300 miles to the east, Tahiti 2,500 miles to the northwest, and the nearest island, with a total population of 54 people, is tiny Pitcairn, 1,400 miles to the west. The answer lies in the deeply rooted traditions of Polynesian culture.

                      https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/polynesia-genius-navigators/

                      Austronesian migrations

                      Map of expansion of Austronesian languages. Numbers represent approximate years when migrations occurred. Negative numbers are BCE, positive are CE.

                      http://nautil.us/blog/dragons-memory–navigating-the-globe-using-only-your-wits

                    • KJT

                      The people who navigated around the Pacific were doing much more than an "advanced form of island hopping".

                      Like the Acapulco galleons they were able to repeat the same voyages consistently. Unlike the Acapulco galleons, who had their share of misses, btw, they had much smaller and lower targets to hit.
                      The people who think that are theorists, Not Navigators.
                      And, guilty of cultural arrogance.
                      It is manifestly false..

                      And. Not just beginners, which I was a long way from, had trouble with finding Pacific islands, pre GPS.

                    • Dukeofurl

                      Ask Cook about trouble finding his way back to NZ with limited instruments.

                      I dont know what your navigation issues were , but centuries of exploration suggest you were a beginner…I bet you read a book or something and hoped your sailing skills would improve along the way.

                      The regular galleons, which you could buy tickets for show it worked for them. It worked for them.

                      Clearly Maori lost the empirical skills as here they were only coastal navigators , not to different to the Romans

                    • KJT

                      Bollocks. Dukefurl.

                      As I was getting paid for my Navigation skills, I can assure you they were a long way from, amateur.

                      And. There has been a lot of culturally dismissive crap written about Polynesian Navigation skills.

                      Which can easily be proven wrong. You don't find islands in the Pacific, over and over again, by blind luck, or island hopping.

    • McFlock 1.2

      Because the green candidate isn't going to get anywhere, so it's essentially a vote for dolt45?

      • weka 1.2.1

        Only in areas where voting Dem makes a difference. In areas where it doesn't, voting Green is really good tactics.

        It’s the Greens in NZ that changed the electoral system to MMP.

        • McFlock 1.2.1.1

          So in those areas it will be a good reason to not vote Green or write in "Captain Kangaroo". And one would need to be pretty damned sure their vote wouldn't count in that area (in which case I'd probably stay home because covid19).

          Not sure what your comment about MMP has to do with the US presidential election.

          • weka 1.2.1.1.1

            The general idea is that the only way to break the duopoly (and things like money in politics) is electoral reform, and the Greens are the ones that will do that. Somewhat possible in the UK, prob not in the US (because it's a shit show, and because the population is the way it is).

            The reason to grow the Green vote despite them not being able to win, is to build an alternative politics. Then change can happen. Pretty much what happened here.

            • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.1

              The Greens were part of the change to MMP, but they didn't get into parliament until the first MMP election.

              In the US, the presidential elections a duopoly because the system is incredibly resource-intense with a win-or-complete-loss outcome. A third party won't break that up.

              I suspect the only way to have a Green party president would be for the green party to largely supplant one of the mainstream parties in the mational legislature, providing both the permanent party inftrastructure and political credibility a presidential candidate needs.

              The trouble with a US 3rd party candidate is that there's a long window where their popularity serves only to take electoral college members from their most closely-aligned main party but not have a chance of winning themselves.

              • weka

                The Greens were part of the change to MMP, but they didn't get into parliament until the first MMP election.

                Right, and them standing before that and having people vote for them was part of the change to MMP (not least because it again showed how daft FPP was). Voting can effect change even where the person/party doesn't win at the time.

                The point of voting Green in the US at the moment isn't to try and get a Green president, it's to raise the profile of green politics and thus change the culture. There are also the other elections that run alongside the presidential ones.

                • McFlock

                  Well, there are lots of reasons to vote Green for potus. A reason not to is if there is a tiny chance one's vote might actually matter.

                  Adam asked why one wouldn't vote Green. That's a reason why.

  2. Good morning, I am just going to sleep now as I've been playing Civilization VI all night. Finally conquered the world by nuking my enemies!

    Losing the meta-game however, by making poor life choices 😛

    • Sanctuary 2.1

      I always end up using the nukes as well. The secret is to foster good relations with your neighbours and building up a mighty first strike capacity before BAM! you slug them with the nukes and occupy all their key cities.

      • mac1 2.1.1

        The game is called "Civilisation"?

        Tacitus comes to mind. "They created desolation and called it peace."

        • KJT 2.1.1.1

          "We napalmed the village, to save it".

          • mac1 2.1.1.1.1

            KJT, I thought the very same words when I wrote my comment, wrote them down and then deleted them before publishing the comment. I was thinking of Hué city in 1968 as being the subject of that quote but you are right, KJT.

            Wikepedia said this of Hué. " In the end, although the Allies declared a military victory, the city of Huế was virtually destroyed, and more than 5,000 civilians were killed (2,800 of them executed by the PAVN and VC), while South Vietnamese forces killed a further 1,000–2,000 people after the battle. The PAVN-VC lost an estimated 5,133 killed, while Allied forces lost 668 dead and 3,707 wounded. The losses negatively affected the American public's perception of the war, and political support for the war began to wane."

            As some are playing war games in lockdown, in the world soldiers are still fighting and civilians are dying along with them. It is as if we are afflicted with another covert virus deep within us that allows, as do some governments, massive casualties among innocent civilians.

            A compassionate society with strong leadership pointing the correct way, using empathy and appeals to our better natures, making use of the best of scientific and bureaucratic practice, is far preferable to the divisive and selfish society that America has become far too much.

            In essence, some people are saying that we need thousands of innocent citizens to risk severe illness and death in order to save the economy. Is there a parallel here?

            • KJT 2.1.1.1.1.1

              I think there is.

              The disregard for human life that characterised Vietnam. "Bombing them into Democracy", though they have found that economic warfare is more politically palatable, even if it kills more than bombing, continues today in Venezuela, Israel, Brazil and, probably soon, Iran.

              And, as someone once said, "regimes that treat foreigners with callous disregard, eventually extend it to their own people".

              I think our Government, faults and all, has proven better than that.

              • mac1

                KJT quoted ""regimes that treat foreigners with callous disregard, eventually extend it to their own people".

                No argument with that. It's in the nature of regimes to be callous, in the modern usage of the word 'regime' anyway. Finally, as Pastor Niemoller said, they come for us.

        • roblogic 2.1.1.2

          There are other victory conditions, I was very close to a Science victory by creating a Mars colony. You can also win a pinko victory by Cultural or Religious dominance, but that's boring.

          PS: I played as the USA but found the Communist form of government to be most efficient 😛

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Spinoff gives platform to minor parties: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/13-05-2020/the-minor-parties-on-how-they-would-have-responded-to-the-covid-19-crisis/

    "The NZ Outdoors Party seeks to empower New Zealanders and our communities to become more self-sufficient. Let’s grow community vegetable gardens and fruit trees. Let’s encourage people to stay physically, emotionally and spiritually well. Let’s reconnect people with each other and with nature. Let’s support local businesses. Let’s create a culture where small and local are beautiful. Let’s give power back to local communities."

    Social Credit: "we would push for the first $20,000 of income to be tax free, for the cost of visits to doctors and dentists to be capped at $30, and for trips on urban public transport to be made free. All these measures could be paid for with direct funding from the Reserve Bank without incurring additional government debt. This would require a commensurate decrease in the amount of money creation by the commercial banks to ensure that there was no overall increase in the money supply and therefore no risk of inflation."

    Sustainable NZ: "This week we are releasing an integrated suite of programmes to create a world-leading and enduring “Innovation Ecosystem”."

    TOP: "A Universal Basic Income (UBI). $250 per week for all Kiwis, no questions asked. Covid-19 has shown us the future; a weak and disrupted job market. A UBI and 33% flat tax would put cash in everyone’s pockets, simplify the tax and welfare system, and stimulate the economy. A UBI also honours the unpaid work of parents, carers, and volunteers. Kiwis could retrain, start new businesses, or take time to care for whānau without going under. It means entrepreneurs can start new ventures to create more jobs. A UBI is our best shot at future-proofing our society."

    • Sanctuary 3.1

      Interesting how TOP – the vanity project of an old neo-liberal millionaire white guy – is the only party left proposing the Utopian neoliberal policies last championed by middle aged neoliberal millionaire white guys 25 years ago.

      • Dukeofurl 3.1.1

        Sheep in wolfs clothing….. did you not notice the flat tax proposal.. Roger Douglas still pushes that

        Trump talked up the working class before the election and in office gave the 1% the biggest benefits

        • RedLogix 3.1.1.1

          Both you and Sanctuary make the very common mistake of treating a UBI and a flat tax separately, and reaching false conclusions based on this.

          You see the words 'flat tax' and leap to the conclusion that it's a right wing trojan horse. You see the term UBI and think of it as some kind of miserly targeted welfare.

          It's the necessary combination of the two that changes everything. Because it's universal it's helpful to think of a UBI as a kind of negative tax, and that it's the sum of both the "positive PAYE (or other income source) tax' and the 'negative UBI tax' and the which is what actually matters.

          When you do the arithmetic it's obvious that the total tax outcome is quite nicely progressive. Indeed it works out for most less than median incomes the total tax rate is either zero or very close to it.

      • RedLogix 3.1.2

        the only party left proposing the Utopian neoliberal policies

        Any chance you care to back that assertion with facts?

        • Sanctuary 3.1.2.1

          UBI and flat tax are both libertarian/utopian right wing ideas. Because of the superficial attraction of free money for everyone leftists fail to grasp that UBI are originally a right wing idea. The individual gets a sum of money from the government. The quid pro quo is that money is meant to then absolve the state and society of all responsibility. You use your money as you see fit – but if you decide to go on a holiday and can't afford health care, then you die like a dog in the street and that is that. Bad choices, bro. The net effect of a UBI will eventually be those best at managing it – the advantaged middle class – will love it, and they’ll love working in jobs that separate all the fools from their UBI. people with bad money skills or mental health or addiction issues will end up dying in third world squalor.

          Flat tax proposals are routinely peddled by the likes of ACT and other far right market parties.

          • RedLogix 3.1.2.1.1

            UBI and flat tax are both libertarian/utopian right wing ideas.

            Flat tax proposals are routinely peddled by the likes of ACT and other far right market parties.

            The combination of a UBI and a flat tax is inherently progressive; the arithmetic absolutely makes it so; exactly how progressive depends on the settings. This is a common mistake people make when they treat each component separately.

            You use your money as you see fit – but if you decide to go on a holiday and can't afford health care, then you die like a dog in the street and that is that.

            Can you link to the TOP policy specifying this?

            people with bad money skills or mental health or addiction issues will end up dying in third world squalor.

            All the trials of a UBI so far have pointed in the exact opposite direction. Do you have any evidence to support this rather grim contention?

            • Sanctuary 3.1.2.1.1.1

              Trials of UBI have been conducted in the context of a welfare state. The idea that once a left wing party introduces a UBI the other lot will never win an election and then start tinkering with the provision of social, health and education services because people now have free money to buy their own is naive.

              • RedLogix

                Can you link to TOP's policies to privatise our health, education and social services? Because I just did a quick check to see if I missed this the first time, and still didn’t spot it. Maybe it’s buried in some secret code I’m too stupid to understand.

                But maybe you are correct, maybe I am naive and Geoff Simmons is secretly planning to sacrifice and eat all our first born,

                • Sanctuary

                  Geoff Simmons has more chance of playing bass guitar for Kiss than he does of ever getting into parliament. In is the likes of Goldsmith and Seymour fucking us over once we have a UBI that worries me.

                  • RedLogix

                    I just cannot see the causal connection, or even a historic correlation, between a UBI and the kind of neo-liberal privatisation you are using as a bogeyman here.

                    And first up you tell us that 'TOP is the only neo-liberal party left in Parliament', and now you've shifted to telling us ACT and National are the real threat. Now I'm not just naive, but confused as well. blush

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      RL, you're not the only one that's confused.

                      And first up you tell us that 'TOP is the only neo-liberal party left in Parliament'

                      You may be able to point me to that counter-factual statement, but it's much more likely that you're just putting words in Sanctuary's comments. Why do you do this – stretched thin?

                    • RedLogix

                      Maybe it was back at 7:13am where Sanctuary wrote this:

                      Interesting how TOP – the vanity project of an old neo-liberal millionaire white guy – is the only party left proposing the Utopian neoliberal policies

                      OK so I'm guilty of paraphrasing a bit. Bite me.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Guilty of questioning whether that Logix comment @11:50 am was factual – bite me!

      • KJT 3.1.3

        Don't think TOP, is inherently Neo-liberal.

        In fact their other policy goals, such as reducing house price inflation, which makes a liveable UBI, more affordable, are the opposite.

        I think they have been too influenced by Gareth Morgan's, narrow conventionally educated economists, financial view of the world, but I think their aims are fine.

        A UBI/negative income tax, combined with a flat tax, is progressive. As is their ideas on broadening the tax base, to wealth taxes on top.

        I share sanctuaries concern, about what a right wing Government may do with a UBI, however.

    • KJT 3.2

      TOP's UBI , is too little, to have the effects intended.

      Though, I agree with the intention.

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    "The letter went on to say that Bridges' claim that the Official Information Act had been "suspended" was wrong. "The Ministry of Health has not received any direction that the Official Information Act 1982 has been suspended and we continue to respond to OIA requests," it said." https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12331443

    The Herald political reporter didn't investigate whether the OIA was suspended or not, apparently. Since Bridges asserted that it was a week ago, apart from TVNZ reporting his statement, the media seems to have ignored it. The truth is out there somewhere, but all our media professionals have apparently developed a consensus that it's too hard to find. People will assume Bloomfield is right, and the Leader of the Opposition wrong, but will we ever know who to believe really?? Perhaps there's has been a mass conversion to postmodernism, and the truth no longer matters…

    • gsays 4.1

      With that in mind.. grab a first-aid kit and the transistor, The Tauranga Express is about to derail on RNZ.

      • Dukeofurl 4.1.1

        I heard it repeated by two political commentators on ZB while in the car on Sunday Afternoon… not something I would normally listen too

        Weekend Collective was the show.

    • aj 4.2

      People will assume Bloomfield is right, and the Leader of the Opposition wrong, but will we ever know who to believe really??

      Do you really think Bridges will let it go if he is right? Not a snowflake's chance in hell.

    • ianmac 4.3

      Marlborough Express has an item headed "Bridges insists no questions Unanswered." Whatever that means??

      "Bridges yesterday said he stood by his assertion saying it took two to two and a half weeks for the Ministry to respond to the committee."

      " In fact of the eve of that committee, we received answers that I hadn't received through no fault, because they were literally on the eve. We had a right as Parliament to be getting timely answers, and that certainly did not happen.” (???)

      The column writer makes no comment on Bloomfield's statement that the OIA was not "suspended."

      Just thinking how much fuss there is on every word spoken by Jacinda where the rather wobbly words of Simon get a free pass.

      Can't find this item online. No by-line

      • Dennis Frank 4.3.1

        Thanks Ian. Seems like a consistent pattern of evasion by the media. I wonder if they are so induced by his prior dodgy utterances that they automatically file everything he says into the `loopy' category as if fact-checking him is a waste of time.

        However his assertion that the OIA had been suspended is classic fake news, and their consistent collective failure to identify it as such is clear evidence that journalism has become a joke (rather than a profession).

      • McFlock 4.3.2

        pressreader app seems to have a similar article bottom page three of Taranaki Daily news.

        It's not Bloomfield's fault that Bridges can't check his own emails in the morning.

  5. Molly 5

    A report from the New Economics Foundation, on how the UK can offset the damage to renters/landlords/homeowners from Covid-19. (Muttonbird, given our previous conversations it may be of interest to you.)

    I like the premise because it follows through the whole system in order to solve the issue, which is primarily about people losing their homes. As I have mentioned before, I would extend this solution to our government creating a NZ Housing loan that allowed current mortgage holders to switch to low or non-interest loans, that would both save homeowners and renters from loss of housing. Given that we are heading towards negative interest rates, this solution is not as unimaginable as it would have been even five years ago.

    The money created by the government for this purpose, could then be reabsorbed as mortgage payments are received.

    • greywarshark 5.1

      Good, sensible, practical, doable policy Molly. Thanks. Can everyone talk about it more until it gets loud enough to reach to the top level who get the message – everyone's talking about this.

      If the masses want it, they should get it – that's nelib econ101 isn't it?

    • KJT 5.2

      Rather than a "mortgage holiday" bank style, which simply makes more money for the bank, just later, as they charge the earlier forgone interest, and cumulative interest on that also.

      A real mortgage/rent/interest holiday? which simply halts all payments for the period of the lockdown. Restarting on the same basis as before, at the end of it.

      May have saved some otherwise viable small businesses, as well as tenancies.

  6. Anyone know the most direct route to complain to Newshub about misleading and factually incorrect reporting?

    I'm referring Tova O'Brien's allegation that the MOH has been lying about the number of hospitalisations due to Covid

    • aj 6.1

      She could have asked that question in a different way and not insulted the MoH at all.

      "How can we reconcile the difference between numbers you are telling us and number published in other areas?" (gives example.)

      But no, I think it was deliberately framed to be confrontational and feed into the right wing agenda.

      • francesca 6.1.1

        And I find it unbelievable that she could not remember Ashley explaining on the April 21presser that the people transferred to hospital from nursing homes due to staffing shortages would not be counted in the hospitalisation statistics

        Even I retained that info.How is it an experienced political editor could not?

  7. ScottGN 7

    Broadcasting Standards Authority

    https://www.bsa.govt.nz/

    • francesca 7.1

      Thanks Scott

      I've just registered my complaint with Newshub and will also go the BSA way, though my experience with it in the past was pretty frustrating

      I tend to think Tova is hanging herself with her own rope

  8. Here's a wise old owl (Dr Geoff Bertram)

    "These signs of disconnection between what the elected Government wants to do and its ability to deliver on the ground suggest it is time to take a deep and serious look at two of the key pillars of the state sector reforms pushed in 1987………..":

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/05/13/1167622/the-future-of-the-new-zealand-state-sector

    Transformation and kindness might have been an easier task had state sector reform been high on the agenda too.

    • KJT 8.1

      Echoing what I've often said about the idea of "generic managers" parachuted in, with little knowledge or ability in the area they manage.

      MNZ was/is a prime example, I’ve had dealings with..
      Competent and knowledgeable people, within the organisation, having to keep their heads down so as not to embarrass barely competent “Managers”.

      It usually fails in the private sector, so why the hell did we copy it for Government departments.

      “Jobs for the boys”??

      • Dukeofurl 8.1.1

        The MSD senior manager just below the CEO in charge of Service delivery..effectively the whole benefit system and public offices and call centres is …. Viv Rickard a deputy Commissioner of Police ( seconded)

        • OnceWasTim 8.1.1.1

          Yep for a while there (months ago now) I wondered if it could possibly be the same guy – and it is. ffs!

          But if it wasn't going to be him, it'd have been something similar – along the lines of what I described on OM on the 10th. (beginning at Sacha's '2' but specifically at 2.1.1.2 )

      • RedLogix 8.1.2

        Echoing what I've often said about the idea of "generic managers" parachuted in, with little knowledge or ability in the area they manage.

        Indeed, I think we've probably both expressed our dismay at this many times. Looking back over my working life, the really good managers were without exception also highly experienced in the industry.

        Middle management is a shit of a job usually, caught between C-level managers or owners who are being driven by financial or political goals, and the realities on the ground floor. Lacking the authority to say no to their managers, and often lacking the skill and authority to make much difference on the work front … it's a stressful, lonely and thankless task many capable people don't want to do. (And here in Aus it's well known they have high suicide rate, known as 'middle management syndrome').

      • greywarshark 8.1.3

        Treasury and gummint bought into USA methods and policies, because the leading managers were told to be change agents and business does it better was the mantra.

        Policies were sold like a fictional screenplay that would be an exciting and new theme ie 'Nobody Does It Better' with Roger Moore etc. Public servants wear cardigans, new business-oriented types are sharp, sexy, and adorable!

        (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7__rt0hRm8s

      • RedBaronCV 8.1.4

        Frequently senior managers who have never been outside their own personal socio-economic bubble or even out of Auckland for that matter. The private sector is awash with this. I have sat listening to presentations where you can just hear everyone thinking"they don't even have broadband out there so this won't work". More seriously though there is pressure , a lot of it, in a deniable way to skip over the rules and laws that govern business so that someone further up can earn the bonus.

        So yes the public service does need some serious repurposing but the trick will be to keep it repurposed (& state assets in state hands) when the next RW government turns up. Otherwise everything will be sold and the proceeds distributed in high end tax cuts. Nobody really wanted the power companies sold but sold they were. We need to be able to put brakes on this. Perhaps by having state owned companies holding the assets with company rules that designate every one of us as shareholders so there needs to be a nationwide vote (referendum) for this type of sale to occur- to line it up with the corporate provisions for non state companies

    • Janet 8.2

      When Dr Geoff Bertram says there are signs of disconnection – deliberate or otherwise- between what the elected Government wants to do and its ability to deliver, I have to agree. Some government departments seem quite incestuous to deal with now, no doubt the networking system and the high number of "academically qualified "that fill those departments now.. or as KIT says jobs for the boys.

      Having family members who have received very unfair and unresolved outcomes with ACC and the education department in recent years, I fully understand that :1/ the buck no longer stops somewhere these days 2/ politicians have less influence than in the past and in fact seem to be held at arms-length by government departments unless they are parroting government department policy perfectly eg Eugenie Sage is a good example with her repetitive echoing of DOC,s “there is no alternative to aerial 1080”, when in fact there is,:enviroMate 100TM for all areas man can walk.

      • OnceWasTim 8.2.1

        Yep. Good responses above following '8'

        There are more serious problems with things the way they are too – such as the complete contempt for the OIA, and some of these senior PS and CEO's thinking it OK to use T & C for various little 'projects'. Really that should disqualify them from ever holding a PS position again.

        But there's another thing too. While JA and CO have handled the COVID19 situation spectacularly, I doubt it would have gone nearly so smoothly had we not been in a state of national emergency.

        Again, PS reform should have been one of the first things the coalition should have AT LEAST made a start on

        • Janet 8.2.1.1

          Did you know that all the pest control tenders that DOC placed on GETS since 2017 require an aerial 1080 capability ( whether or not it would be needed) It is their way of effectively cutting out all ground operators. So highhanded and unfair and not ensuring the NZ tax payer gets the best deal for their money. Heads must roll .

      • Treetop 8.2.2

        Having a robust no cost review process and legal advice can make a difference. Also I feel it is up to the government to take note of review decisions and to amended the law so a person does not need to take on a huge government ministry to win their case.

  9. Ad 9

    He's delivering a talk sponsored by the PSA on this theme shortly.

    First for the chopping block should be eradicating DHB's completely. They have been nothing but an accountability nightmare, and a stumbling block during this crisis.

    • bill 9.1

      Was that meant to be a reply to OnceWasTim?

      Anyway. Yes. Get the market out of the health system and be done with business orientated fiefdoms.

      Adrian Thornton posted a lengthy interview with Corbyn the other day on the steady privatisation of the NHS. Many parallels with NZ with regards outcomes from what I can grasp.

      That no private hospitals or providers do A&E because "profit"…I'm guessing that's the same here. Get rid of the fucks.

      • roblogic 9.1.1

        I broke my arm in Northland earlier this year, needed surgery to screw the bone back together. Couldn't even book an *appointment* with orthopaedics at Whangarei hospital. Came back home to Auckland, got an appointment to see orth surgeon in a few days. He took one look at the X-rays and said "oops why wasn't this done days ago!?" and I got surgery the next day.

        That was 11 days of fucking around with different DHBs & fighting bureaucracy while my arm was smashed in 5 places, before finally getting surgery

        • bill 9.1.1.1

          Aye well, before NZ, I'd never been to a doctor and been asked "Do you have insurance?"

          Then – I recall some minor 'scandal' over a surgeon leveraging the DHB down this way for an exorbitant salary – I can't remember the exact details, but essentially it was a surgeon playing one DHB off against another in an environment of supply and demand.

          And my back's unneccesarily and permanently fucked, meaning I won't have a job again, because the fragmented health service in NZ doesn't know its arse from its elbow.

          And teeth. The USA aside – is there another so-called developed nation in the world where poor people can be identified by their teeth?

          I could go on (as I'm sure most people could).

          • roblogic 9.1.1.1.1

            I could go on

            Side effect of getting older is a collection of dramas. Every day above ground is a good day 👍🏼

            • Grafton Gully 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Every day above ground for me is being taxed to pay people with self inflicted injuries and hidden disabilities to stay out of the workforce.

              • I Feel Love

                All I heard GG was "wah wah wah".

              • McFlock

                So much to unpack… the likelihood of some implication of lack of deservingness from "self inflicted", equating an undeserving injury with a hidden disability, the hope that maybe a visible disability would be viewed as deserving, and the idea that if that comment is indicative of GG's current go-to state of mind, maybe they currently have depression, which is often a hidden disability.

                Bless.

              • Tricledrown

                GG you can't be earning enough money to worry so much.Without ACC you would have many lawsuits bankrupting employers US style.

                • Incognito

                  Good evening.

                  Would you please be so kind to acknowledge that you have seen and understood your recent moderation?

                  If yes, I will release you from Pre-Moderation.

                  If no or nothing, you will be banned for a while.

                  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

                  • Tricledrown

                    Yes

                    • Incognito

                      Thank you 🙂

                    • I Feel Love []

                      Maybe that butcher had a "hidden disability", ie depression, stress, ptsd who knows, but it's comments like GGs which add to that pressure. But we've also seen the Tax Payers Union ask for some public relief, so if needed I'm sure GG will also be lining up for welfare too. Hypocrite.

  10. Macro 10

    How to Obamagatehate.

    • Brigid 10.1

      She's soo hilarious. I couldn't work out where she was at the end. She's standing in the wardrobe!!

  11. Molly 11

    Kind of appalling to make this the lead article on the online Herald: Butcher's death after lockdown struggles: Family's plea to PM to lift lockdown rule.

    Series of editorial decisions made here:

    1. To run the article in the first place, although many people have lost friends and family in the last month.

    2. To put it in prominent homepage position.

    3. "Butcher's death after lockdown struggles…" is the (current) tagline on the homepage, click through and the article is titled "Covid 19 coronavirus: Family of Mad Butcher store owner Roy Green make heartfelt plea to allow them to attend his funeral", allowing the initial tagline to be changed – usual practice – when enough people have seen the tagline and absorbed the implied criticism.

    4. The first line promotes the idea that the liquidation is the most important factor in his death. Other factors are reported, but as an addition to a reiteration of the business line. Someone well versed in grammar, could perhaps explain the paragraphing here.

    "Roy Green, 38, died at the weekend after his business went into liquidation a week ago.

    The father-of-two owned the store in Pukekohe, South Auckland, and had run it for about five years. The Herald understands Green had also been struggling with other personal issues not related to the business."

    5. The tagline strongly implies the lockdown struggles are the reason for the butcher's death.

    6. The tagline also reduces the restrictions on Level 2 to a whim or arbitrary decision on the part of the PM, not a nationwide protocol.

    7. The article itself is completely unvetted. Quoting someone who while saying there should be no exceptions, seems to think they warrant it. There is also a bit of a sedgway in there, regarding the negative impact to business in general.

    8. All of which allows a statement be inserted in:

    "..the National Party says the limits are not only unkind, but "inhumane"."

    The National Party going anywhere near a discussion about humanity, is a novel experience.

    The reality is: a funeral is a time when physical expressions of sympathy, love and support are a fundamental part of the process. Social distancing during this time, will be harder to adhere to than any other gathering. This article is a good example of ill-considered and malignant editorial decision making, that will influence the goodwill of the Herald reading public unfortunately, and gives prominence to the Exceptional Me school of thought.

    • Sabine 11.1

      I understand the need for social distancing. I think most people do.

      but to reconcile the need for no more then 10 people at a funeral while at the same time allowing Malls to re-open, cafes to accept parties of no more then ten people but several there of makes no sense to me.

      We are debating how to go into level two atm and to be honest it is confusing. I have to have a registar for every person staying longer then 15 min, but everyone else can come into the shop? Lol. So if someone comes in – asymptomatic but infected – and stays less then 15 min its all good, no tracing required.

      It is confusing, and it makes little sense.

      But to pretend that the Heralds writers – many whom are in a class to profit of a National No Mates Party government – would not write National No Mates Party positive is also a bit naive. The Herald writers with the nice income know where their tax cuts and tax deductions come from, and it ain’t the Labur Party.editorial.

      However, the question stands, why can Malls be open with potentially hundreds of people showing up to get in, while a Tangi can only have ten people.

      And to be honest, butchers should have been considered essential services, as bakers and green grocers. Standing in line for several hours at a Supermarket can also a bea detriment to ones health.

      Meh, is all i got to say.

      • francesca 11.1.1

        I think you will find Sabine that attendance at a tangi is a way more emotional experience with a great deal of kissing and hugging and tender closeness than you would ever find at the average mall

        I'm glad however after all your angst that you have survived and are opening the shop again

        All the best

        • Sabine 11.1.1.1

          As a person how has lost both parents and a good amount of friends believe me, I have been at a Tangi and also at other funerals, and generally yes, they are emotional and generally they are also full of people. But thanks for educating me in the ways of the humans.

          As for your concern for my well being, thanks. But there is not one small business owner that has survived this, some just have an option of getting out earlier and hopefully with less damage then the butcher from Pukekohe. RIP.

          And if you think that at a Mall, jam packed with consumers, or people who just come to browse, eat, drink, kids running around playing etc are not emotional i must conclude that you have not been in a Mall for a while. And above all you have very little idea about humans in general.

          And lastly, maybe you care to actually address the points that i raised in good faith, rather then just go and be snarky with very little to say.

          Because by tomorrow, Cafes can allow groups of max 10 people each to come for emotional gathering, drinking and eating,

          But you can not have several groups of 10 people attend a tangi at the same time. And that is the difference that makes no fucking sense.

          And you can get the illness in a line at the supermarket (of which there have been many) but you can't online order and have a no contact pick up or delivery with your local butcher/green grocer/bakery, and that too makes no sense.

          bye now. 🙂

          • Dukeofurl 11.1.1.1.1

            You dont seem to understand the details of the rules nor the obvious differences between a mall and a funeral/tangi

            At level 2 before lockdown they were largely empty., not jam packed and as with supermarkets now numbers are still restricted.

            Wild claims like "And you can get the illness in a line at the supermarket (of which there have been many)" show the inherent implausibility of all your arguments.

            All Mad Butcher shops struggled before the Coronavirus and there seems to be other pre-existing personal issues for this person

          • SPC 11.1.1.1.2

            Supermarkets (food) were an essential, dairies are all there are in some areas. And in person shopping – not enough on-line ordering let alone delivery capacity, was required.

            For their competitors, any expanded risk of infection beyond minimalist operation of a food service.

            One issue was safe entry.

            By their nature some shops – butchers and greengrocers keep doors closed (unlike dairies) and flies out – and unlike supermarkets do not have electronic doors. This requires door handle entry, hands and all that.

            While I supported these shops being open, I (now realising the risk) would have required the retailer to open and close doors for one in and one out customers.

            Method of Payment – eftpos cards

            Supermarkets and dairies either have paywave, or they do not.

            For others the capacity to provide contactless service – on-line payment and delivery or contactless collect.

            They could have allowed butchers and greengrocers to operate if they had paywave instore, not just on-line payment delivery or collect – as many did at level 3.

            The positive for many butchers and greengrocers is that they will now be using the on-line order and delivery serivce to expand their customer base.

            And for the rest of us – paywave will become commonplace and thus community infection spread will reduce for more than just coronavirus.

        • aj 11.1.1.2

          I agree with francesca, and the the rules are quite rational. It's because of these apparent contradictions that it becomes easy to pick holes. But if you look at the overall intent of the rules, and apply them to every situation, then they become quite reasonable.
          Another story in today’s newspaper repeated that churches are only allow congregations of 10. That is incorrect, up to 100 with social distancing.

          • KJT 11.1.1.2.1

            Just seeing a whole lot of Facebook posts from PI and Māori agreeing with the Government about Tangi.

            Saying "hard as it is, we don't want more people dying after a Tangi".

            And, that it is impossible to attend a Tangi, and "distance".

            • aj 11.1.1.2.1.1

              Someone needs to ask Bridges and other national MP's a simple yes/no question. If health advice was to limit the attendance at funerals to 10, would they have ignored it. Yes or no. Quite simple.

      • Molly 11.1.2

        Didn't expect the Herald to be pro-Labour, but at present have been in close proximity to people who loudly, and aggressively have resisted any restrictions on their behaviour, even during Alert 4. I do think the consequences of this kind of reporting have real world impacts on individuals, and those they interact with in the community.

        Regarding the opening of malls, etc. That is going to be an interesting study in the behaviour patterns of people. Given the mobile and dynamic nature of shopping in malls, there is quite a bit of movement. Maintaining social distancing is going to be a ballet performance, with a few incidents of two left feet I would think. It will also be interesting to see if people do flock back to the malls, just because they can, or whether those that feel vulnerable, or have concerns still about transmission reduce the patronage numbers. (Along with the large number of people who may have lost any disposable income).

        I hope it will be easier for you in your cafe. With seated patrons, protocols are easier to define and implement. Our local bakery has marked positions on the pavement outside, and customers go in one at a time to order and purchase. My partner has spent quite a lot of time in the last few weeks writing up new SoP's and induction processes for his workplace to go back to work.

        I don't think the restriction on funerals – at this stage – is onerous, although I do feel for those who have lost loved ones, or will lose loved ones – at this time. I agree with francesca that the ability to social distance from others who are grieving, is a much harder task than to distance yourself from strangers in a shopping environment.

        My point about the article about butcher from Pukekohe, is that the article was framed that it was the loss of business that caused his death. It is apparent, however, that no-one knows what it was. Regarding your comment about butchers being essential, AFAIK, butchers have been able to operate on-line and contactless delivery in Alert 3. Our regular butcher has been able to do so. It also contained a lot of expectation for exceptionalism, which is in contradiction to what is needed.

      • Editractor 11.1.3

        Perhaps it is also because funerals and weddings are more likely to draw in people from far and wide, making tracking and containment of any spread more difficult.

    • I Feel Love 11.2

      Stuff still running the headline. So now the mans story is made public, a weapon for the opposition and gutter press.

      • Treetop 11.2.1

        It is important for the media to not add to the families distress.

        Have the media set up a give a little page?

        Words are cheap sincere action is not.

    • ianmac 11.3

      The father-of-two owned the store in Pukekohe, South Auckland, and had run it for about five years. The Herald understands Green had also been struggling with other personal issues not related to the business."

      That should have been the main idea because one might guess it was the main reason for his death. But it should not have been published it at all as it is written should have been a compassionate decision. Must be very trying for Mr Green's family.

      • Molly 11.3.1

        " But it should not have been published it at all as it is written should have been a compassionate decision. ". I agree, my long-winded meandering comment corrected down to the most salient point. Thanks, ianmac.

    • SPC 11.4

      The headline about the family's call to lift the lockdown rule was about the funeral, not the operation of the business under levels 4 and 3.

      The Herald first reported last Friday about the liquidation of the buisness a week earlier. (the story noted how many other Mad Butcher franchises had closed in the past year – pre pandemic. Some during the term of the franchiose some when these ended. Because the franchise model had low profits pre pandemic). He died on the Sunday – the story was about the funeral.

  12. Kay 12

    Inter city bus/rail travel around a nation should a NECESSARY part of the infrastructure, not a 'nice to have'. Just another example of the mass privatisations of the 1990s catching up with us. Hopefully the government will realise that a subsidy for the duration to keep this vital service running is necessary.

    https://www.intercity.co.nz/travel-info/network-status/level-2

  13. Adrian Thornton 13

    New Zealand exports over 800 Million dollars of goods to Indonesia, while our "kindness" govt remain silent over the genocide of the indigenous people of West Papua….I guess this kindness is only valid if it doesn't get in the way of their free trade ideology…as I keep banging on about, no morals or ethics can be found in the Liberal ideology.

    The battle for West Papuan independence from Indonesia has intensified with deadly results

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-12/west-papua-secret-war-with-indonesia-for-independence/12227966

  14. Dennis Frank 14

    "The French economist Thomas Piketty is the bestselling author of Capital in the Twenty-First Century (2013) and its follow-up, Capital and Ideology (2019), a sweep through 1,000 years of the history of inequality. Speaking to the Guardian, he said he had been thinking about the opportunities this pandemic may present to build fairer, more equal societies." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/12/will-coronavirus-lead-to-fairer-societies-thomas-piketty-explores-the-prospect

    He says “powerful shocks like pandemics, wars or financial crashes have an impact on society, but the nature of that impact depends on the theories people hold about history, society, the balance of power – in a word, ideology – which varies from place to place. It always takes major social and political mobilisation to move societies in the direction of equality.”

    So belief systems determine the outcome of those shocks: particularly those bonding the largest social groups.

    • bill 14.1

      Well – the largest social group has been taught there is no alternative, capitalism is natural, the clowns in charge know what they're doing and that everything must be paid for.

      Meanwhile, those in charge in the US have gifted corporations $US4 Trillion for a buying spree in an unfolding global depression.

      So between what people believe and the balance of power they perceive…

      • francesca 14.1.1

        We've still a way to run .

        Can you see attempts at reinstating business as usual being successful .We may have to wait a bit longer for that to be seen as futile

        • bill 14.1.1.1

          I'm thinking that the idea is to eat the US. Y'know, America can die, but the US corporation can rise triumphant and spread across the globe.

          There has been precious little for small businesses over there, and a single $1200 cheque for those who qualified.

          Meanwhile, the US has been leaning on the UK to allow it to veto any trade arrangements with China it may negotiate.

          Does Robertson and the other clowns think they can get NZ a slice of that $US 4+ Trillion US corporations have? Do they think it will come by way of neutral investment? Is that why the bullshit from the US songbook that Peter's splurted about Taiwan and the WHO?

          • Pat 14.1.1.1.1

            Think what our 'clowns' are more concerned with is maintaining access to the ability to purchase offshore in a world where others determine the rules.

            Like us they dont necessarily like or agree with the environment we find ourselves in but nevertheless must do the best they can within it.

            Peters playing his own games off to the side.

            • bill 14.1.1.1.1.1

              You saying "our" clowns want to keep playing the game? They've got a golden opportunity to lead the world, pivot and allow the laws of physics to determine sets of rules and strategies…

              I'm not suggesting that would be easy, but hey….

              • Pat

                I think our "clowns" (who in this instance I believe are not) are between a rock and a hard place and what Ive seen to date dosnt lead me to be so certain they want to keep the game being played the way it has been….whether that leads to the necessary (and gutsy) changes required is yet to be seen…im still hopeful but also mindful how easy it will be for any change to be unwound

  15. gsays 15

    Morena folks, I am seeking tips and tactics for dealing with a reasonably serious complaint about a landline service provider.

    How I see it, the company has changed its policy and doesn't accept cheques. My in-laws have paid their last two bills by cheque. The company disconnected them three days ago.

    They are elderly, diabetic (one with serious other health issues), no cell phone, no internet/computer. We were assured yesty morn the phone would be back on "in a few minutes".

    Later that arvo, still no phone. Another call and we find out that as the line is disconnected, it may take up to 5days to reconnect!

    Who is best to contact both in the company and perhaps outside of company?

    Any ideas on how to get things moving quicker?

    Cheers.

    • greywarshark 15.1

      gsays This will be interesting. I have been wondering about this cheque business. I hope someone can suggest something, cheques should still be legal tender and a refusal to accept them should put that business in the wrong. What does the Reserve Bank do about this? Hasn't it got any teeth to deal with our money system's wrongdoings and desires of businesses to make up their own rules?

      My bank SBS says it is not stopping having cheques because we customers want them to hold on to the system. Yet Kiwibank, supposedly close to the people has decided to cut them out. It shows the distance that the need to be seen as 'businesslike' by SOEs makes between their real purpose to serve the people, and shows in the mind that they are efficient according to the current mantra from technocrats etc.

    • Anne 15.2

      I'm not knocking your in-laws gsays because I'm an older person and had difficulty paying bills during lockdown. I don't do online banking due to an experience years ago and I tried communicating with the providers but with no success. In the end a relative paid the bills and I reimbursed by way of cash.

      And therein I think lies the source of the problem. None of these organisations are operating as per normal. Staff are working from home and many services have been seriously affected. I also recall major service organisations announcing they would no longer accept cheques – last year I think it was.

      With the start of level 2 tomorrow, they will be up and running close to normal again but it could take a day or two to happen. Your in-laws won't be the only ones adversely affected so there may eventually be an element of compensation but I wouldn't hazard a guess what form it would take.

      In the meantime, I don't think there's much you can do but keep trying to get through to them.

      • gsays 15.2.1

        Thanks Grey, Anne and Sabine.

        I get that companies are in a bit of turmoil at the moment. Not too busty to arrange a disconnect though. Their messaging has been inconsistent at best.

        The company has not communicated with the account holder about 'non-payment, although they claim to have sent a text!

        Part of the problem too is dealing with the person who answers the phone rather than, say, their team leader (or whatever they are called nowadays.
        One blessing is that they were unaware they had been cut off, otherwise they would have worried themselves sick.

    • Sabine 15.3

      Go to the news would be my best guess.

    • Bazza64 15.4

      gsays – we had huge problems with Vodafone last year with our Broadband package. Despite many assurances they would fix it after we called them a heap of times nothing was ever done. The only way we got it resolved was by posting on Vodafone's Facebook page saying how useless they were with customer service, if they didn't respond we kept posting again saying how many days they had dragged it on for. This eventually made them pull finger & get it sorted.

      That might be a help if you are willing to do that ?

      Nowdays nobody wants to talk to you – just useless chatbots

    • Treetop 15.5

      There should of been no disconnections during lockdown and for another week after lockdown level 2 starts.

      During lock down level 4 and 3 the person's bank needed to provide a service to set up a automatic payment. The wait time to get through was long and I opted to be called back. A separate number for high needs and those on NZ Super or a transfer would have helped. Also an option for do not disconnect would have helped.

      I am anti Internet banking. I find phone banking to be enough. I also will not use a personal teller ATM in a bank to deposit money.

      The level of control a bank has over me in what I am required to do to deposit money into a bank has gone too far.

      • gsays 15.5.1

        I like yr healthy cynicism of the banksters.

        We are starting a complaint process with Telecommunications Dispute Resolution.

        They can investigate, advocate and, if it gets to it, make a judgement.

        Fingers crossed.

    • SPC 15.6

      Don't they have a credit/debit card they can make payments by landline phone with? Others can pay on their behalf by this method also.

      • gsays 15.6.1

        Yes, all that is possible once it is known that the cheques are not being accepted.

        Finding this out because you have been disconnected is a shitty way to do business, and a miserable way to treat long term customers. .

  16. A 16

    These are fucking creepy. Imagine going for a walk with these on patrol telling you what to do. Singapore has them, Australia is considering getting them "for public safety" to help enforce social distancing.

    Won’t be long before authorities find other uses for those dogs. Taxation, parking, policing…who knows.

    • I Feel Love 16.1

      Following dog walkers to make sure they pick up their dogs poo…

      • KJT 16.1.1

        I wish. And the buggers who leave broken glass where kids walk.

      • A 16.1.2

        Actually that would be quite helpful (!)

        I was walking behind someone with a really large dog a few days ago…unfortunately for her it was a triple bag day. I thought on the last stop she had run out but she was prepared.

    • Sabine 16.2

      but but ….robots are cool. 🙂 Creepy as fuck these things are.

    • indiana 16.3

      The humans are dead….

    • Treetop 16.4

      I'd like to see it malfunction. As well it would not stop every few minutes for a squat.

  17. greywarshark 17

    That's right Efficiency NZ – remove controls and precautionary measures on something else that the neolib lean, efficient bunch of clots have prevailed on you turning you into their lapdogs, you in leadership positions! Now the agency running the airport controls.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416493/proposal-to-remove-air-traffic-control-services-raises-safety-concerns-union

    ‘lapdogs’ and robot dogs above! Coincidence!

  18. Sanctuary 18

    Oh man, I broke the second most important rule after not getting involved in a land war in Asia – I got into an argument with an anti-vaxer on FB, who it turns out thinks 5G also causes autism and Jacinda Ardern is part of a Freemason plot.

    God almighty spare me.

    • gsays 18.1

      Have you come round to their way of thinking then?

      • Sanctuary 18.1.1

        I told her the reason the government was passing legislation to support going to level 2 under urgency was because it wanted to round up all the anti-vaxxers and inject them with a vaccine that give them autism when/if they are exposed to 5G radiation.

        I then posted a youtube video of a fairground merry-go-round and left the FB conversation and turned off notifications…

        • Barfly 18.1.1.1

          Love it ! cheeky

        • ianmac 18.1.1.2

          Great Sanctuary. A sort of If you can't beat 'em join 'em but with a touch of malice. angry

        • RedBaronCV 18.1.1.3

          Sanctuary mon hombre you will have entered the conspiracy hall of fame by now for that worthy effort…

          Anyone taking bets on how soon this gets face book tagged for incorrect news – 1 day 2 days goes viral …

          u devil u

    • Dennis Frank 18.2

      Look on the bright side – the British royal family are lizards from outer space theory wasn't included. 😵

    • Anne 18.3

      These nut-bars need to be banned from social media. Either that or agree to be treated for their bat-shit crazy notions. They are dangerous and they prey on vulnerable people.

    • joe90 18.4

      Jacinda Ardern is part of a Freemason plot

      It's working.

    • roblogic 18.5

      Problem is, there really *is* a conspiracy to screw over everybody and wreck the Earth, it's called Capitalism

  19. A 19

    [WARNING

    Before you consider experimenting on and with yourself through self-medicating, especially if it is suggested somewhere on-line by a non-authoritative or non-authorised source without a disclaimer and without any mention of potential risks to your health, you should always consult your GP or other health professional first – Incognito]

    Testing is flawed and the issue is not as bad as it is represented as. – Thank God.

    Aside from bad testing Covid 19 is a blood clotting issue, people aren't being treated properly so it's not surprising people are having a shit time with it. Current best evidence suggests additional vit C, zinc, quercetin, and vit D3/K2 will reduce symptoms and duration. Supplements work best taken early on. Anecdotal evidence suggests taking 3x 500 mg aspirins dissolved in lemon juice boiled with honey, taken hot will be a quick fix and sort of makes sense if dealing with a clotting issue – who knows? Worth a try.

    [You are free to believe your beliefs but when you post dangerous claptrap from some conspiracy nutter with a commercial interest in selling snake oil, I will push back hard and fast.

    None of what is in your comment is covered in the YouTube clip!?

    Current best evidence suggests additional vit C, zinc, quercetin, and vit D3/K2 will reduce symptoms and duration. Supplements work best taken early on.

    If this is “current best evidence” then you will have no trouble providing three links to independent, reputable, and verifiable sources.

    The “anecdotal evidence” looks right-out dangerous to me. One link to a reputable source will do.

    AFAIK, a dose of 3× 500 mg aspirin is much higher than any prophylactic dose, for adults! Nobody should take this without advice from a qualified health provider!

    … will be a quick fix and sort of makes sense if dealing with a clotting issue – who knows? Worth a try.

    This is dangerous lunacy layered over more lunacy, stupidity, and obvious ignorance!

    You are in Pre-Moderation until you provide those four links, with a decent commentary and explanation from you. If you fail to comply, you can withdraw your comment in full, but failing that, you will receive a ban – Incognito]

    • Dukeofurl 19.1

      Bizarre nonsense

      "3x 500 mg aspirins dissolved in lemon juice boiled with honey, taken hot will be a quick fix..

      Have you tried injecting it ?

    • mac1 19.3

      Now, what evidence is more trustworthy? "Anecdotal evidence" or the best evidence that scientists and medical experts using best scientific method produces? Anecdotal evidence that "sort of makes sense"?

      I want better than that, A.

    • Incognito 19.4

      See my Moderation note @ 12:42 PM.

      • Stunned Mullet 19.4.1

        Although very few people are likely to take health advice from such a post could you please remove it from the site.

        Apart from the quite large dose of an antiplatelet agent aspirin is contraindicated in children and teenagers due to risk of Reye's syndrome.

        • Incognito 19.4.1.1

          Thank you. In situations like this, we need (more) input and guidance from commenters who know what they’re talking about.

          We generally don’t delete anything and leave it for educational purposes so that others can read & learn, but I’ll add a strong warning at the top of the comment.

      • RedLogix 19.4.2

        In summary, the early use of aspirin in covid-19 patients, which has the effects of inhibiting virus replication, anti-platelet aggregation, anti-inflammatory and anti-lung injury, is expected to reduce the incidence of severe and critical patients, shorten the length of hospital duration and reduce the incidence of cardiovascular complications.

        https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04365309

        Given these lines of evidence, the purpose of the proposed multi-center, prospective, randomized controlled trial is to test the hypothesis that low-risk, early treatment with aspirin and vitamin D in COVID-19 (The LEAD COVID-19 Trial) can mitigate the prothrombotic state and reduce hospitalization rates.

        https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04363840

        I'm not endorsing the high dose of aspirin, and it's clear there are contraindications in young people … who are not likely to become seriously ill anyway. But neither does it seem a crazy dangerous notion either given the serious medical trials underway.

        Also the Vitamin D connection is quite well understood.

        And given I usually take a zinc supplement every day, I'm can't say I'm alarmed at that recommendation either.

        • swordfish 19.4.2.1

          EVMS Critical Care COVID-19 Management Protocol

          Eastern Virginia Medical School's recommended approach to COVID-19 based on "the best (and most recent) literature" (May 11)

          Covers Prophylaxis, Symptomatic patients (at home), mildly symptomatic patients (in hospital), … through to … severely symptomatic patients (hospital).

          Emphasis on immune-boosters, anti-virals, antioxidants early on: Vitamin C & D3, Zinc, Quercetin, Melatonin & possibly Aspirin, Hydroxychloroquine Ivermectin to prevent infection or at early symptomatic stage … then adding anti-inflammatories & immune suppressive treatments as the disease progresses in hospital.

          https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/internal_medicine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf

          And the MATH+ Treatment Protocol recommended by Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Working Group

          https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/MATHPressRelease.pdf

        • Incognito 19.4.2.2

          Thank you, but your comment highlights the hidden danger with health-related suggestions that sound innocuous and like ‘common sense’.

          You link to two clinical trials with aspirin that address the same medical problem of blood clots.

          There are a number of important differences between these trials, for example, and the crazy stuff dispensed by the snake oil salesman in the video clip @ 19, which had no bearing on the dangerous suggestions made in the comment @ 19.

          There is no evidence presented @ 19 that this “[c]urrent best evidence” and there is, of course, nothing to back-up the so-called “[a]necdotal evidence”.

          These two trials use much lower doses of aspirin of 100 and 81 mg, respectively, compared to 1,500 mg in the comment @ 19! When “dissolved in lemon juice boiled with honey” it might actually taste quite nice and why not have second one later in the day? “Worth a try.” Yeah, nah!

          The patients participating in these trials are tested beforehand for known contraindications and selected based on the inclusion criteria, which you can find in these links. You will also find the exclusion criteria in these links and you should have a read.

          The patients are carefully and regularly monitored for any side effects and adverse events caused by aspirin.

          This is very different from experimenting on yourself at home without any (prior) knowledge of the health risks and without any guidance or advice from a health professional whilst using a much higher dose of aspirin.

          The comment @ 19 gave no link to check, no warnings of any potential dangerous side effects, and was a concoction of dangerous quackery and harmful ignorance. In my view, it is as bad as Trump’s suggestion to inject disinfectant, which has led to poisoning cases in the US, I believe. In fact, I think it is worse because it sounds so harmless and reasonable to take aspirin. Doesn’t it just?

      • RedLogix 19.4.3

        I'm fully aware of how difficult moderation can be Incognito; in no sense is my comment above intended to attack or discourage in any fashion. I'm 100% certain you were moderating A's post in good faith.

        Cheers

  20. ScottGN 20

    Latest death in NSW is an 80 year old plus woman, a passenger on the Ruby Princess who first showed symptoms in mid-March and has been fighting Covid for 2 months. Poor woman, what an awful outcome.

  21. joe90 21

    South Korea's covid containment strategy in action.

  22. Ffloyd 22

    Tova should go and work for Fox News. She’s a shocker. Always first up and always with the personal questions/attacks on Jacinda and Ashley. They have my utmost admiration for staying so calm and reasonable with her even though they know she’s not going to listen to a word they say. She’s like a bleedin dag that won’t drop off no matter how much the sheep rattles them. A political reporter she ain’t. Attack dog maybe. Chihuahua!?

    • observer 22.1

      I have no problem with journos asking tough Qs (and I don't like seeing them abused on social media). But a minimum professional requirement is to ask those Qs in good faith.

      Tova O'Brien fails that test. It is certainly fair to ask if the max 10 limit is justified. But not to accuse people of being heartless, as if that was the real motivation for the decision.

      In fact, she's doing the opposite of holding to account. She's so gratuitously offensive that people switch off – literally or metaphorically. So any serious raising of the issue is lost.

      I agree that Ardern and Bloomfield handle this very well. I know I wouldn't.

      • I Feel Love 22.1.1

        Her style of questioning is counter productive & easy to bat away, "are we being heartless? I don't think so, next."

    • KJT 22.2

      Given up listening past the initial statements from Adern and Blomfield.

      Anything past that, is mostly random noise.

      Any other information, including business requirements, is available on Government Covid websites, and the remains of decent media online.

  23. Ad 23

    Zero cases again today!

    • bwaghorn 23.1

      Awesome .

      What is the government to do if in 1 year time we are fully clear of covid but no vaccine is coming and this bastard bug is still roaming the planet, can we survive being a little fortress and the bottom of the planet or will we have to open at some point?

      • Barfly 23.1.1

        " can we survive being a little fortress at the bottom of the planet"

        Yep

  24. Peter 24

    Simon Bridges in a number of utterances he's made in recent days, including today, shows he doesn't want future generations to pay for debts arising out of the Covid-19 situation.

    When I've got more freedom in the next short while I'm going to go to the local cemetery to ask generations gone by if they want to pay for them. I'm not confident of their support for the notion.

  25. Poission 25

    NZ increases trade surplus since 1 Feb.

    2.5b vs 1.1 B (2019)year on year.

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/effects-of-covid-19-on-trade-1-february-6-may-2020-provisional

    we might be on track to reduce our current account deficit substantially for the first time in a generation.

  26. Biden campaign lets rip

    (via DailyKos)

  27. observer 27

    Here is the news. Today, yesterday and tomorrow. Every day.

    "In a post that has since been deleted, Idiot X has ranted at Jacinda Ardern …"

    Today it's Leo Molloy, other times it's a Nat MP, or some other Angry Man (sic).

    Happens every single time. It's not just the rants, it's that they are so stupid they try and undo what can't be undone.

    Just put the phone down, lads. Breathe before Send. Share your hate with a pillow, not the world. So much easier than trying to make a time machine that never works.

  28. joe90 28

    Aww..

    Mark Davies is used to flying around the world, typically visiting Geneva and Monaco every month in his work as a tax adviser for the super-wealthy.

    Now he’s sequestered at home in southwest London because of the coronavirus pandemic, which is wreaking havoc on his business and the tax plans of his clients similarly accustomed to globetrotting.

    “The pandemic means we’ve now got people stuck in the U.K. who didn’t intend to be here, and people who did want to be here that couldn’t,” he said. “It’s gone both ways.”

    As nations have closed borders, some individuals are confronting unexpectedly complex tax situations. These include the prospect of higher levies from spending too many days in a foreign locale, or having to shelve plans to obtain tax breaks by moving abroad.

    It’s not just international travel that poses tax risks. The question of tax complications also looms for the thousands of people in the U.S. who’ve crossed state lines to hunker down in vacation homes or with in-laws.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-12/stranded-super-rich-confront-tax-chaos-after-pandemic-lockdowns?

    • RedBaronCV 28.1

      …..shucks

      I wonder if we managed to trap any here that we can subsequently domesticate?

    • Gabby 28.2

      Just watch how quick HM Gov is to arrange exemptions for the paw widdle nondoms.

  29. Herodotus 29

    No one needs to be concerned … We have a Labour/Green/NZ1 government, and what powers is parliament pushing thru currently regarding increasing police powers. And only a wee peep by one Left leaning organisation/blogs etc. UNBELIEVABLE

    🙈🙉🙊

    https://twitter.com/NZGreens

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12331487

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/05/13/why-on-earth-are-the-nz-police-trailing-mass-surveillance-face-recognition-tech-without-any-clearance/

      • mac1 29.1.1

        The powers in the bill passed today are limited to 90 days currency. The government would have to return for an extension to the House if it felt the situation then warranted it.

        A month after that, we have an election!

        Not really the modus operandi of an aspiring authoritarian régime.

        • KJT 29.1.1.1

          Not so concerned about this Government, at present.

          The police, on the whole, have taken the direction to , “be kind” on board, and seem to have taken a common sense approach.

          At some stage though, we will return to a National Government, that turns a blind eye or even encourages abuse of police and spy agency powers. Tacitly supporting police overreach. They don't need any precedents for that.

          It is hypocritical that National criticises this bill, after their previous extensions to legislation, giving police, spooks and customs powers we associate with police States.

          • mac1 29.1.1.1.1

            Sorry, KJT, my comment was directed at Herodotus' fears. I do like what you write, though. 🙂

            I have noticed for many years a fear expressed by some, as laws are enacted, that although the present government might be OK, the legislation they are introducing may be misused by some future bunch of rogues.

            Many years have passed……. Smith's Dream is still just that.

            Rogues will either act ultra vires if they need to, or will enact their own legislation to give themselves a fiat. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. (Having referred to that quote, I have just realised that it could be taken to mean that eternal vigilance by the state over its citizens is the price of freedom, rather than the vigilance of the citizen to prevent that.) Some further investigation found some great examples in US history of the power of eternal vigilance. https://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2017/07/notes-on-eternal-vigilance-is-price-of.html

            This includes an action to oppose and eventually have repealed a land grab in Georgia by speculators who bribed their way to the enactment of a law to allow the alienation to their speculative companies of millions of acres of public land in the 1790s. Fascinating stuff and a testimony to one man who saw the wrong and brought about its repeal.

    • I Feel Love 29.2

      Media too busy stalking David Clark or looking for suicides. When we first went into lockdown I was terrified the cops were gonna be over the top, but they weren't. In the UK & Aus they have been, so it's a credible fear (but the Herald suddenly concerned about police going onto marae? Pfft.)

      • Anne 29.2.1

        When we first went into lockdown I was terrified the cops were gonna be over the top, but they weren't.

        Yep. I did too. Pleasantly surprised they acted with common sense and discretion. Whether it has anything to do with the new Commissioner of Police (whose name currently escapes me but that’s normal for me 🙁 ), I don’t know.

        I have had good reason to be cynical of the NZ Police in the past but maybe things have changed.

        • gsays 29.2.1.1

          " I have had good reason to be cynical of the NZ Police in the past but maybe things have changed. "

          Not so fast there Anne. The coppers implementing trialing the face recognition spying stuff, didn't know the commissioner's name either.

    • weka 29.3

      Not sure what your first link was meant to be to, but it went to the GP twitter account (I've fixed the visuals on the link).

  30. joe90 30

    Relying on a bloke who usually deals in wedding gowns to import life-saving equipment from a CCP member didn't work out too well.

    But the shipment arriving that night in late March wasn’t going to solve the problem. An Associated Press investigation has found those masks were counterfeits — as are millions of medical masks, gloves, gowns and other supplies being used in hospitals across the country, putting lives at risk.

    […]

    Florida-based importer Mark Kwoka said he believes the Shanghai Dasheng masks with ear loops that he obtained came from their factory, based on information he received from his partners in China.

    “This is kind of getting out of control,” said Kwoka, who made a career in bridal gown design and manufacturing in China but turned to masks earlier this year.

    https://apnews.com/850d9e6834fc71967af6d3dda65ad874?

  31. millsy 31

    This young butcher who died is being turned to a martyr by the National Party, #nzpol, ACT and business sector.

    While it is said that he was under a lot of stress, it wasn't like he was going to end up sleeping in his car. Had he waited a bit longer, an interest free IRD loan would have tied him over, with no repayments for 3 years. Repayments would probably have been at $20 a week even.

    A few years ago, I read about an older couple who had been bounced around motels for 6 months after being evicted by Housing NZ on trumped up meth charges. Their daughter, a mother of 6, had killed herself because WINZ had told her that they wouldn't be paying for her motel rooms anymore. So they had to take their 6 kids with them as they were trapped in motel room purgatory.

    Unfortunately that woman didn't get made into a glorious martyr for the National Party cause. Nope, her belongings got tossed and 2 pensioners are working out how the hell they are going to bring up 6 kids in a world where some Boomer's return matters more than giving people a roof over their head.

    • SPC 31.1

      The problem was the Mad Butcher franchise system was/is going under – little profit. The number have halved in the past year (pre-pandemic) – franchises ending with the term or during term.

      There was a liquidator appointed. Franchise models complicate getting bank support. Especially with that franchises recent record.

  32. millsy 32

    Woodhouse knows that Muldoon was a National Party PM right? Not even the CCP denigrates Mao like that, even if they do accept his failings.

  33. joe90 33

    The Man.

  34. logie97 35

    Restaurants to open again.

    One waiter/ress per table.

    As there is to be monitoring of distance and non-contact, those with pony tails working in Parnell should feel fairly safe then.

    • I Feel Love 35.1

      do a Larry David, to keep people away from You wear a MAGA cap. Social distance device.

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