Open Mike 13/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 13th, 2018 - 224 comments
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224 comments on “Open Mike 13/11/2018”

  1. Jenny 1

    The vileness continues

    Supermarket’s Christmas ad about deforestation, palm oil ruled too ‘political’ for British TV
    ABC News, November 12, 2018

    An advertising watchdog has deemed a supermarket’s Christmas ad campaign too “political” for broadcast in the UK.

    The ad, which highlights the destruction of rainforests for palm oil production, was originally created for Greenpeace.

    Here is the ad.

    • Jenny 1.1

      The vileness continued……

      Some facts:

      New Zealand is the world’s biggest importer of PKE 

      Fonterra, New Zealand’s biggest company, has been linked to deforestation for the production of Palm Oil

      Deforestation is a major factor in climate change

      Before her election to Prime MInister, Jacinda Ardern said “climate change is my generation’s Nuclear Free Moment”

      Millions of moments have passed and this vile trade still continues

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        fact is that you will find this type of ‘vegetable’ oil, in any oil that is labelled ‘vegetable oil’, in any supermarket of the country.
        fact is that they used to lable palm oil ‘palm oil’ but they don’t anymore as the destruction caused has been known now for many many years, and people refused to buy the stuff in the mid nineties, and some people still don’t buy anything not clearly labelled. i.e. sunflower oil, olive oil etc.
        fact is that just because it is labelled ‘vegetable’ does not mean it will not kill animals and destroy habitat.

        fact is also that Jacinda Ardern and her coalition will be flawed.

        from 2015
        https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-agriculture/25-sneaky-names-palm-oil.html

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil

      • SaveNZ 1.1.2

        As well as destroying the environment locally and internationally by deforestation there have also been studies that show farmers using PKE and intensive farming techniques (aka extensive use of supplementary feed) makes farmers more vulnerable financially as they start overstocking and then have go into debt to feed that intensively farmed stock during droughts or bad prices. Funny enough also helps the NZ environment too, not to have so much intensive farming and stock in areas that are not a good fit and rely on means like irrigation and supplementary feed.

        • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.1

          Absolutely save NZ. The supplements mean the land is producing above and beyond what it is capable of – and thus above and beyond what it is capable of processing = pollution.

          Ah to be the envy of the world and so move us toward becoming a giant feedlot churning out basic commodities. Thanks Fonterra, you’re so visionary.

      • gsays 1.1.3

        Cue Joe 90 dismissive comment……

      • Jimmy 1.1.4

        Fonterra now won’t accept Milk from farms that use more than 3kg of PKE per cow.
        Testing is done daily, if farms feed more than this they receive a financial penalty.
        Other dairy companies do not do this as yet.

        • Molly 1.1.4.1

          I believe that 2015 recommendation was a pre-emptive move by Fonterra due to anticipated consumer backlash. Before that daily consumption rates were expected to be around 20 – 22 kilos. as it is the level of dry feed is the same, just not the tainted PKE – which may not drop the stocking levels at all.

          • Jimmy 1.1.4.1.1

            Nothing to do with being a pre-emptive move to avoid consumer backlash.
            Milk from cows that have been fed high levels of PKE has a different composition than grass fed cows.
            Long story short, Fonterra finds it difficult to manufacture milk that has had high levels of PKE so they don’t want it.
            You may not like the reasons for limiting PKE, but it is still a massive reduction in PKE use on Fonterra farms.

            • Molly 1.1.4.1.1.1

              Sorry, was on different device and links didn’t go through:

              Fonterra PKE bombshell bewilders farmersStuff 2015 article

              Fonterra farmers have a year to adapt to palm kernel changes before penalty Stuff 2017 article

              Had a quick look for a PKE article I read a few years back where it seemed that Fonterra was actively encouraging the use. It was then I became aware of the ecological impact our current model for the dairy industry was having overseas. Can’t find it now though. However, there was an identification of NZ dairy being one of the main purchasers of PKE. If Fonterra was unaware of that possible consumer backlash, they are not keeping an eye on the game.

              It is interesting that the manufacturing process is the reason that they are asking farmers for a reduction. If that is the case, I assume that different processes or products are now being made, otherwise it took them long enough.

              If Fonterra were actively promoting PKE as a supplementary feed and have now changed the criteria, it is the farmers that are also being affected with changing and conflicting advice – often after investing capital in higher stock levels with certain outlay parameters.

          • bwaghorn 1.1.4.1.2

            Can you link your info . I find it very hard to believe a cow can eat 22 lbs of pke

        • SaveNZ 1.1.4.2

          How about zero PKE if they want to make a stand for the environment!

          Also are they still using coal fired kilns for drying the milk powder?

          • Jimmy 1.1.4.2.1

            I don’t think they are using coal, definitely not in the modern driers.
            Gas and electricity I think.

          • Naki man 1.1.4.2.2

            “Also are they still using coal fired kilns for drying the milk powder?”

            They don’t have any kilns. But they do have coal fired boilers.

            • SaveNZ 1.1.4.2.2.1

              Thanks that must be what I was thinking of. I think Greenpeace was lobbying them to get rid of the coal. Not sure if they did it or not?

              • Naki man

                “Thanks that must be what I was thinking of. I think Greenpeace was lobbying them to get rid of the coal. Not sure if they did it or not?:

                No they have not.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.5

        Yes. I think we need a law the enforces feed for animals only to be grown in NZ. Get us to living within our means.

      • Jenny 1.1.6

        The point of this post was firstly, to illustrate the lengths that commercial interests will go to protect a lucrative but immoral trade from any cricticism or censure.

        Which pointed out the need for legislation to bring these rogues into line.

        If Jacinda Ardern can stand up to the powerful coal lobby over Te Kuha Coal mine expanding onto conservation land, and defy the oil and gas lobby by refusing their demand to issue them any new off shore exploration permits.

        Why hasn’t she done something about ending this despicable trade?

    • Muttonbird 1.2

      Ed has been highlighting this case over the last few days under immense criticism by the establishment. He’s copped some very nasty flack for it.

      • Puckish Rogue 1.2.1

        The establishment?

      • Sabine 1.2.2

        establishment?

        you mean like being rich with a gold toilet and fake teeth and comb over establishment?
        or are you talking about people on the standard that might find ed a bit to much?

        as for the Palm Kernel, Palm Oil, Vegetable Oil, brouhahah, Ed is late to he Party. Very Very late. That realization happened for many in the mid 90’s.

        • gsays 1.2.2.1

          “as for the Palm Kernel, Palm Oil, Vegetable Oil, brouhahah, Ed is late to he Party. Very Very late. That realization happened for many in the mid 90’s.”

          How very ‘right on’ of you, Sabine. The usual Shit progressives could learn to drop.

          Because you knew this 20plus years ago, it gives you the right to down on folk getting it now?

          • Sabine 1.2.2.1.1

            no, it does not.
            but it also give us oldies that have been avoiding this shit, have talked in real live to people about it, have donated to various organisations a right to say “it is not news’.

            As for Ed, i don’t like preachers. I don’t care if they are roman catholic, or protestant, or vegan.
            He has his good points, but it is maybe time that he realises that just because he discovered something that no one ever spoke to him about, or that he never saw on tv, does not mean we or some of us don’t know it.

            now other then that, have you got an issue with the facts that I spoke about?

            • gsays 1.2.2.1.1.1

              In regards to pke, I have nothing to add, couldn’t agree more etc.

              As for your and others attitude to Ed, yes.
              Firstly the ‘new’ aspect to this is that this ad has been banned and as Jenny points out, had an early life for Greenpeace.
              Joe made this Greenpeace point in an equally dismissive way when Ed first posted it.

              Beyond the obvious environmental devastation issues, the fact that the ad was banned sends shivers.
              Also bear in mind it is a big grocery chain (900stores in UK) that seems to be an industry leader is even more chilling (boom boom).
              http://about.iceland.co.uk
              For me this brings up questions, who complained to get this banned?

              We all learn at different times but the way some react to Ed, closes down conversation, exchange of ideas and shifts things to the personal.

              Most people who visit here do not comment.
              For all their faults so far, the governments message of kindness would not go too far astray.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Beyond the obvious environmental devastation issues, the fact that the ad was banned sends shivers.

                QFT

                That’s some serious 1984 shit happening.

            • OnceWasTim 1.2.2.1.1.2

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2.1.1.3

              he realises that just because he discovered something that no one ever spoke to him about, or that he never saw on tv, does not mean we or some of us don’t know it.

              Perhaps its time that you realised that just because you know something doesn’t mean that everybody else does.

              Then there’s the fact that if it’s still happening then it still needs to be reported about. All your actions in the 1990s hasn’t stopped the destruction.

        • Muttonbird 1.2.2.2

          By establishment I mean institutional centrists I suppose. Those who are for nothing and against everything, and against nothing and for everything.

          Ed is passionate, yes, but pretty mild and very consistent.

          I’ve learned something new over the last few days on palm oil both here and elsewhere. It’s not a fight which should be over because institutional centrists have barely moved on it. This is the kind of fight which requires radical activism.

          • Sabine 1.2.2.2.1

            This fight has been fought for a long time, and sadly imho has been lost.
            Not because people like you, Ed, i or many others have stopped using it, actively trying to not buy it even in its hidden form, but essentially due to government selling the land and the rights to companies for pennies on a dollar, and sadly Orang Utans have no value for these people. No more then people or animals have value in NZ when we give away our ground water to bottling companies cause why not. And yet, we can’t seem to do much about that either?

            there was radical activism in the late 80’s mid 90’s which forced labeling laws to state the content of the ‘vegetable oils’, it resulted in Palm Oil to literally disappear from our shelfs in supermarkets.
            Instead they are now selling Palm Oil Kernel – industry to industry – i.e. Industrial Agriculture as a cheap food supplement.

            This little christmas clip is nothing new, nor is the censuring of it. Media is a profit driven industry and they will ban what will harm profit.

            So maybe we should start giving up our TV’s then. Stop watching it. All of it, even Dr. Who. Maybe if profits go down media will wake up. But can you imagine all 8 billion of us doing that?

      • mauī 1.2.3

        Ed has been amazing in this area, even revolutionary. It is a pity that others will try and take the credit that he only deserves.

        • Sabine 1.2.3.1

          coming here and posting articles that are neither new nor anything else is now ‘revolutionary’? Really?

          Latin: revolutio, “a turn around”) is a fundamental and relatively sudden change in political power and political organization which occurs when the population revolt against the government, typically due to perceived oppression (political, social, economic).

          seriously, i don’t actually care that much. But can we please stay in the reality based world and not create saints out of nothing.

          Many of the issues that Ed talks about have been around for many many years. Many people have advertised veganism or vegetarianism many millenia before ED was born, see India.

          He is not always wrong, he is not always right, but he ain’t no revolutionary nor a saint. He is a poster with his personal interests. But he talks very little about anything new.

          If Ed is revolutionary, what was Weka then? And she at least wants to change things for the better on the ground rather then just come here and post one link after the other link of what ever outrage is du jour today.

          • greywarshark 1.2.3.1.1

            Ed seems to want to ‘own’ TS. He tells people what to do, but not once and then letting other people comment. He jumps in and out numerous times and dominates the thread with his opinions.

            If he feels strongly about something let him write a post about it and present the facts and his opinion once or twice and let other people have a go, and they will bring aee thought and links to the matter.

            I notice diminishing numbers of people with joined-up ideas leading to better ideas for citizens and the future coming here. I don’t know whether it is because of people like Ed who appear take up writing here as a hobby to fill in their time, or that it’s like a garden that has been left with bare soil which gets colonised by weeds.

            • Antoine 1.2.3.1.1.1

              > I don’t know whether it is because of people like Ed

              I suspect people jumping on Ed, are much more offputting to new readers, than Ed himself is

              (Edit:) You come on a left wing site and you kinda expect to find a harmless, vegan, pot smoking peacenik. What you don’t expect to find is a dozen other people screaming at him to STFU…

              A.

              • mauī

                Thank you A. Ed-xactly.

              • Stuart Munro

                You support a murderous asshole like Putin and I’ll jump on you too.

                The Old Left had an excuse for misguided Russophilia – Ed doesn’t.

                • James

                  Of course some on here refer to multiple murders as hero’s and a lot of this forum is silent on the matter.

                  Open mike 02/09/2014

                  • McFlock

                    There are something like a dozen responses to that comment (including “+1″s), all disagreeing with it with various levels of invective, and from the political spectrum of commenters at the time. Which is a pretty impressive number of responses with a consistent refrain.

                    Gotta say, your characterisation of the response isn’t entirely fair.

                • gsays

                  I would describe what Ed does is questioning the MSM narrative concerning Putin.
                  A long way from supporting.
                  I think we would agree the MSM profit seeking, click baity habits is the greatest obstacle to most progressive ideas.

                • Antoine

                  > You support a murderous asshole like Putin and I’ll jump on you too.

                  You can ‘jump on’ whoever the hell you like on the Internet, but don’t imagine you make the world a better place in the process.

                  A.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Neither does repeating Putin’s propaganda like Ed does – in fact it prevents the Left from addressing chronic atrocities like those in Syria – which is the whole point of it.

                    It would be nice indeed to make progress, but Putin is not by any means the revolution we are looking for.

                    @Gsays – Actually he doesn’t question the MSM narrative – he derides it, rejecting it en bloc. The Guardian for example is not a completely reliable source – notably on Corbyn, but each piece stands or falls on its merits.

                    If he ever questioned Russian narratives, or those of his preferred sources – self-styled “independent” vloggers from the ranter end of the spectrum, I’d leave him to it.

                    • Antoine

                      > Neither does repeating Putin’s propaganda like Ed does – in fact it prevents the Left from addressing chronic atrocities like those in Syria

                      Oh, don’t be silly. This is a small New Zealand blog. No one here is going to “address atrocities in Syria”, half a world away.

                      A.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    FFS, Ed hasn’t even commented on today’s OM (so far.)

                    I’d settle for Ed being given a fair go. Sabine is correct that Ed champions some ‘old’ causes, but if the issues are unresolved and/or getting worse, then what’s so wrong about trying to raise awareness?

                    It’s the apparent closed-mindedness of the ‘holding a grudge against Ed‘ brigade that’s most off-putting. When, in the immediate discussion about the environmental and economic folly of palm oil production and use, Stuart Munro (@8.57 am) drops this:

                    You support a murderous asshole like Putin and I’ll jump on you too.

                    The Old Left had an excuse for misguided Russophilia – Ed doesn’t.

                    then you know Ed will continue to be personally attacked for his views and style by the usual suspects (j90, SM, James). And to what end?

                    • Sabine

                      All of us have been occasionally attacked. Some leave some stay.

                      It is that comment about the ‘establishment’ going after Ed that i find just laughable. And i would state this with any other name insert.

                      As for us being a silly NZ blog, who cares, and who defines what is silly?
                      Really, the point is that some of us come here to get the news in a condensed form, or come to see if any organizing is being done, or see if some organizing could be done. And of course the occasional sparring with the one or other commentator about stuff.

                      I do however believe that there is a segment of the population, here and elsewhere that needs a savior to rally behind, and it seems some are happy to elevate Ed to that place. And frankly that is a load of horse manure. Ed no more has the truth then any other person here.

                      And those that are afraid of ‘censure’, wake up. We have censures on naked people, genitalia, sex, age appropriate content, heck, we refuse to show the dead of war cause it could upset us emotionally while showing all sorts of violence in ‘tv dramas’ and all sorts of media selfcensure – Heck don’t try to write the news as you see fit in Russia – you might end up dead, or in the US – you might be called an enemy of the state.

                      Even this is nothing new. We know. We have known for a long time.

                      Many have changed eating habits, driving habits, living arrangements, but unless all of us, inclusive Ed turn off the TV, stop reading the news to complain about, stop buying cheap shit in shops out of boredom, essentially give up live as we know it now, go to the land and start plowing it, or do a no dig garden etc, there will be no change.
                      In twenty years time there will be a new Ed. No more wrong or right then the current Ed. Essentially its not that people have a grudge against Ed and those that are like him, newly converted members of the constantly outraged, its that it is boring if it comes without solutions. And i look for solutions that are community based. I can’t change Syria, i can’t change the US, but i can change small things in my community and that is what we should be talking more about.

                      How can we proof our own communities for the world that will be, cause our world is slowly but surely dying out in floods, droughts, fires, mudslides, one decimated species at a time, if we only want to be outraged?

                    • Antoine

                      > I can’t change Syria, i can’t change the US, but i can change small things in my community … go to the land and start plowing it, or do a no dig garden etc

                      But instead you come here and yell at Ed

                      A.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      To get him to practice a few basics Drowsy – elementary critical treatment of his sources, and not repeating blackguards without cause.

                      Ed has posted a practically infinite series on how bad the white helmets are – without ever coming to grips with them in any credible fashion.

                      His critique of Bellingcat was not factual inaccuracy – their principle responsibility as a journalistic outfit – but that they impugned Putin. It’s just not good enough.

                      Ed himself rarely hesitates to indulge in personal attacks – he’s not much better at them than he is at arguments though, so they often go unnoticed.

                  • Sabine

                    can’t reply to you below no reply button.

                    you said: > I can’t change Syria, i can’t change the US, but i can change small things in my community … go to the land and start plowing it, or do a no dig garden etc

                    But instead you come here and yell at Ed

                    A.

                    You know what A. i am still not yelling. 🙂 I am just not sure about the beatification of St. Ed.

                    and yes, like you A. i come here. Go figure. I must be the establishment.

                    [lprent: The reply button disappears at about 10 indents. A: gotta stop somewhere otherwise the we get one word per line. B: wordpress only allows 10. C: that gives em an idea… ]

                    • Antoine

                      > I must be the establishment.

                      Own it 😉

                      A.

                    • Sabine

                      I must be the establishment.

                      Own it 😉

                      A.

                      I can live with whom i am. Been doing it for a while, am comfortable with my self. Thanks.

                      But please explain to me who is the ‘establishment’ of the Standard that gives posters a hard time?

                      Would that be posters that might disagree with you ? or with Ed? Or with someone else? Like seriously, a lot of posters disagree with me, such is the world. So please explain Establishment to me.

                      People that don’t march lockstep with a few posters here?

                      Because frankly we are loosing good posters, commentators and there are days were all of thee posts are just people whinging about the Guardian, the Herald, the Radio, various radio personalities and posting links upon links to stuff but essentially saying nothing much of substance.

                    • Antoine

                      Sorry I don’t know what the ‘establishment’ is either. It was Muttonbird who brought that up.

                      A.

              • gsays

                Well said Antoine.

                Took me a while but that is what I am getting at above.

              • Ed

                Yes A I am surprised by the number of Cold War warriors I bump into here when I simply promote a foreign policy Jeremy Corbyn would advocate for.

                • Stuart Munro

                  Yes – I think you have less in common with Corbyn, and more with ranters like George Galloway.

                  Your disdain for cold warriors clearly does not extend to Putin, who is the cold war espiocrat par excellence, so you run a mighty double standard there.

                  What you simply do is repeat Putin’s propaganda – Corbyn’s foreign policy is relatively sophisticated, and goes right over your head.

                • Antoine

                  > Yes A I am surprised by the number of Cold War warriors I bump into here when I simply promote a foreign policy Jeremy Corbyn would advocate for.

                  Maybe you should stick to your Turnips and leave foreign policy alone as it just seems to wind people up

                  A.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.3.1.2

            Good Lord, has someone been claiming Ed’s a saint now? You read it here first.

            “I am just not sure about the beatification of St. Ed.”

        • Ed 1.2.3.2

          Thanks Maui.

      • James 1.2.4

        “The establishment”. – your run foil hat is slipping.

      • Ed 1.2.5

        The establishment is the neoliberal establishment, set up up by Thatcher and Blair in the UK, Reagan and Clinton in the US and put in place by Douglas and Richardson in NZ.

        This extremist economic ideology has ruled untrammelled for 34 years.

        We still live in a NZ where the Labour Party has not disavowed the neoliberal cult.

        The tentacles of the neoliberal establishment are everywhere – in politics, in the civil service, in Universities, in the media.

        We are still sold the mantra.
        There is no alternative.

        There is an alternative
        Eco socialism.

        It’s that or the planet dies.

        That’s why the Iceland ad was banned.
        It threatened the establishment.

      • Jenny 1.2.6

        Muttonbird 1.2
        13 November 2018 at 6:49 am
        Ed has been highlighting this case over the last few days……

        Where?

  2. Observer Tokoroa 2

    It’s A Pity

    In front of the world, America has shown everyone what a piss weak president they have. He would not walk a step to honour the American soldiers WWI. Because of rain drops.

    In front of the great State of California the same piss weak president has poured out his piss weak insults on the devastated, the dead and dying in the fierce hell fires – fiddling like a mad man with his insipid tweets.

    America is at its Weakest. Surely they can rid themselves of the current Whitehouse Fool.

    • Sabine 2.1

      when you want to bring about the Endtimes in order to get raptured, when all you care is tax cuts and gutting the social welfare net, when all you want is money money money, then he is the perfect president.

      the orange turd will always be as good or as bad as those around him, he will be as good or as bad as his ‘courtiers’ as they are the ones that influence his decisions and his decision making.
      Sadly the emperor has not clothes, his family has no clothes, the republican senate has no clothes, but everyone wants to discuss the evil that is a women called Nancy Pelosi. 🙂

      so yeah, they will not rid themselves of the current occupant, cause surely any day now he will make america white again, which is synonymous with ‘great’ .

      • Observer Tokoroa 2.1.1

        Yes Sabine

        “..when all you care for is tax cuts and gutting the social welfare net, when all you want is money money money, then he (trump) is the perfect president “.

        The extra long Black Coated Fool – hanging around like a dark cloud of hate and horror. President Insane.

        Poor America

    • James 2.2

      “America is at its Weakest. Surely they can rid themselves of the current Whitehouse Fool.”

      Of course they can. In a couple of years when the elections happen.

      But people outside the main centres love him – there is a good chance he will be re-elected.

      Which will be great entertainment watching the anti trump people.

      • Sabine 2.2.1

        Let me remind you of the great words of a fellow named Stalin.

        it matters not who votes, it matters who counts. 🙂

        so your or my vote means jackshit if it isn’t counted and accepted.

    • Chris T 2.3

      I wouldn’t hold my breathe of getting rid of him

      He ain’t going to be impeached and he will probably be re-elected.

      News out today is talk that Hilary Clinton is going to run again. If this turns out to be true, they might as well start designing the orange ones new second term business cards now

      • James 2.3.1

        That will be brilliant!!!!!!!

        They can reuse all those Hillary for president stickers.

        And yep – trump will win again over her.

      • Sabine 2.3.2

        I think that Hillary would find that there are a few very good candidates that might run, and that for better or for worse her time has past.
        And i think that she will actually be ok with it.

    • greywarshark 2.4

      Rain might badly affect the appearance of his hair piece. If someone took a photo of him with a drowned rat look it would upset his political image and standing. He should have adopted wet gear cover as defence forces, civil defence, fire service would wear. That would have made him look manly, and one of the real people.
      With his class, it is perception that counts, of course.

    • But it saved the world from having to see, Trumps hair,wet,straggly,hanging past his shoulders with his bald pate shining brightly through the remnants.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    We still await official confirmation on the content of the Kashoggi tape recording – also on how it was made. Initial reports from Turkey seemed to come from leaks in the government and/or their investigating team, suggesting it was made via his watch, and recorded him screaming as his fingers were being chopped off – nothing on that since. However the existence of a tape recording is now official:

    “Erdoğan is understood to remain unconvinced about Prince Mohammed remaining in power. On Saturday, the Turkish leader claimed Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Britain, France and Germany had been given audio tapes that recorded the killing of Khashoggi, who was killed by a team of 15 security officials who had flown to Istanbul and lain in wait for him to enter the Saudi consulate to sign marriage papers on 2 October. Canada’s prime minister Justin Trudeau confirmed Canadian spies had listened to audio depicting the last moments of Khashoggi’s life. Germany later followed suit, in what appeared to be a co-ordinated effort to maintain pressure on Riyadh.”

    “What was recorded on the tapes remains the centrepiece of the case against the Kingdom, and could help answer whether the crown prince himself was incriminated in the conversations. His chief domestic aide, Saad al-Qahtani, was sacked two weeks after the assassination, as was a deputy intelligence chief. Mohammed bin Salman insists he played no role and his defenders have insisted the hitmen over-reached in a bid to please their masters. Intelligence officials in the region, and in Europe remain incredulous at the claim.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/12/saudi-arabia-crown-prince-mohammed-wings-clipped-as-khashoggi-death-rattles-riyadh

    Seems very significant that the recording is being shared with Canada. Widening the circle like this at the top level of geopolitics is rare. I presume the key players have decided a broad consensus is essential for the leverage they are intending to apply. Realpolitik may not suffice. Evil requires a response of overwhelming force to eliminate it and/or prevent the spread. Tolerance sends the wrong signal. Are western leaders rediscovering their mojo?

    Moral guidance has been absent at the top level for so long many assume it is irrecoverable. Can Trump grow a spine? Will they run it by Putin? And the Chinese leader? I presume they will decide to use the UN, so the answer must be yes. If not, it’ll be a tacit concession that the UN is a dead duck, useless for anything but posturing & inadequate peace-keeping.

  4. Sam C 4

    This is hilarious. Espiner doesn’t even need to try and confuse Kelvin – Kelvin does it to himself.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018670946

    • ianmac 4.1

      To be a “good” MP you need to be fluently credible. Some of our intelligent considerate MPs fail to ignite because, I think, they are carefully analysing what effect their words will have on those who are listening. A sort of instant echo chamber. The result is a hesitant speaker who commands no respect.
      I think 2-3 of previous Labour Leaders suffered from this not because they lacked talent but lacked the ability to express their thoughts.
      Kelvin is a good hardworking bloke but does not come across well.

      • Chris T 4.1.1

        “I think, they are carefully analysing what effect their words will have on those who are listening.”

        Of the problems Kelvin has in any interview on a remotely important subject, it doesn’t seem over analysing his answers is one of them

        • ianmac 4.1.1.1

          Clearly Chris you have never experienced speaking to a large audience. An intelligent person may be “listening” to their own words just before they emerge and questioning whether they are right and will no be understood. Result? Hesitancy. How about you try speaking off the cuff to say 500,000 on National Radio.
          Your mate Key covered it by speaking in contradictory terms and smiling boyishly.

          • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.1

            Well we know to acknowledge we aren’t all the same. That is why there are so many quotes about differences, such as –

            “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.” –
            https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/bertrand_russell_121392

            I think that handles the Kelvin is a little hesitant in his speech criticism.

            and
            ‘There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can’t.’
            http://wisdomquotes.com/short-quotes/

            And we find a good representation of all on this blog.

            • ianmac 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Too right greywarshark. Some see things black or white and can be certain. Some of us see a lot of grey with splodges of black and white and can not often give a straight answer. Ask my wife!

        • KJT 4.1.1.2

          Easy to speak when your mind is full of simplistic slogans.

          Real life, as truly intelligent people know, is full of complication, buts and maybes.

          Putting across complicated concepts accurately and correctly is a lot harder than saying “Labour did it too”.

          I like the old Polynesian concept of the talking Chief, and the doing Chief. No one expected the crop expert or the Navigator, to be an orator.

          The real bosses, on a Marae, don’t do the public speaking. But you can sure see them rolling their eyes on the back bench, when a blowhard goers on too long..

          • Sam C 4.1.1.2.1

            Those are all valid points, KJT.

            Which just reinforces the fact that Kelvin should not be the Acting PM, ever. Rightly or wrongly, we expect our Acting PMs to be able to explain a point of view, or policy, or decision.

            Kelvin doesn’t seem to be able to do that, therefore he shouldn’t be the Acting PM. It doesn’t mean he isn’t good at other things.

          • greywarshark 4.1.1.2.2

            On the marae it may be the kuias who get restive, and show it, even though it’s the men who get to do the talking on most marae. Or that’s what I have heard?

            • I feel love 4.1.1.2.2.1

              “All the kuia” – there is no plural (well not by adding an S to it).

              • greywarshark

                Thanks I feel love – and it is not correct to say Maoris either is it. It is an ongoing thing learning to speak te reo well, even if only partially.
                Kia kaha to me.

            • KJT 4.1.1.2.2.2

              Most definitely.

              And the Kaumatua know, they had better say what the Kuia tell them to say.

              Some of the “Aunties” are terrifying! LOL.

              • greywarshark

                I got an idea of the strength of determination of aunties. I think from Witi Ihimaeras book Pounamu Pounamu. In the story I remember about a rugby game between hapu, the aunties played and were so tricky, if the others seemed to be winning advantage, one of the aunties might get hold of the ball and sit on it till all her side were back in their defensive positions.

                The game would come to a standstill while the players argued and pleaded with the auntie to release the ball. It was a lovely little story though I don’t know if true at some time, but could be I think.

          • ianmac 4.1.1.2.3

            Yes K JT.

    • bwaghorn 4.2

      Willie Jackson’s got the gift of the gab .

    • Jimmy 4.3

      Kelvin did not come across well with Hoskings this morning. Basically said ILG, Shane Jones and Phil Twyford all doing marvelous jobs! Geez he sets a very low bar!

      • greywarshark 4.3.1

        My favourite response – time for repeat – ‘Don’t be so quick to ‘eave ‘alf a brick’
        It could be worse, we could have Gnashional and be gnashing our teeth. We already have inadequate medical care including dental, after years of these poseurs. I don’t say that the Labour Coalition are always marvellous, but many times they come near.

  5. James 5

    This government can’t even plant trees.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12157577

    What’s the count of the billion trees now ? 300?

    • Sabine 5.1

      How many trees were planted under the no mates government? Not by private groups and charities but by government?

      • James 5.1.1

        Duh!

        Whats that got to do with labour stuffing up another of their flagship policies ?

        Worst attempt at deflecting ever.

        • ianmac 5.1.1.1

          Those million trees cannot be planted on different ground – can they? Will have to trash them. Or wait a minute. A different hill or two? Problem solved.

          • ianmac 5.1.1.1.1

            “Acting Prime Minister Kelvin Davis says that almost a million seedlings that were not planted for a Government-backed forestry project will not be wasted because there is plenty of other land that can be used.”

        • Sabine 5.1.1.2

          nope, i just ask you to show where the no mates party and its supporters over the nine years they have been in power attempted to plant any trees, rather then just cut them down to ship overseas, or put a fake art on the swamp kauri to export overseas.

          I find it funny that you want to blame someone for not doing enough while at the same time supporting a party that has a record of doing fuck all.

          but your concern is noted.

    • Antoine 5.2

      [disgusted look]

      Pack of incompetents

      A.

    • Cinny 5.3

      Wait… who are you blaming? After reading the article, I’d say local iwi rather than the government messed up.

      “Ngāti Hine documents seen by the Herald show the iwi did not have enough money to replant the entire forest block itself and had failed to find a commercial partner to take on a joint venture.

      Ngāti Hine Forestry Trust chairman Pita Tipene did not respond to requests for comment.”

      • Antoine 5.3.1

        It was the Government, using taxpayer funds, that chose a partner that was unable to deliver

        A.

        • Cinny 5.3.1.1

          So if you or I had contracted someone and they failed to live up to our expectations by not completing their obligations, would we be to blame or would it be the fault of our contractor?

          • Antoine 5.3.1.1.1

            Bad example. If I used your money to contract someone, and they did a bad job, then you should criticise me as well as the contractor. Because I would have made a bad choice and in the process wasted your money.

            A.

            • Cinny 5.3.1.1.1.1

              Fair call Antoine.

              • Antoine

                Note “a Treasury briefing paper released through the OIA showed Treasury urging Finance Minister Grant Robertson to reject a $116m grant scheme because of the “the lack of detail around grants” and a $127m partnership package, again because “little detail” came with the Budget bid.”

                A.

    • WeTheBleeple 5.4

      I know right. They’ve probably got plastic buckets and spades up there too.

      You should write an article telling us how to do it so there’s no more mistakes.

      I hear the last count is only 75.

      • greywarshark 5.4.1

        Wethebleep
        If you are making ironic statements can you assure us of that by ending /sarc. With the breadth of assertions we get here it is hard to know what is really thought.

        • WeTheBleeple 5.4.1.1

          I thought all the signposts were there regarding sarcasm:

          1. James started the thread.

          • greywarshark 5.4.1.1.1

            I don’t read James. He rarely if ever says anything useful, while I notice that you do. Hence my comment.

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    Neil Young after the wildfire destroyed his home: “California is vulnerable – not because of poor forest management as DT (our so-called president) would have us think. We are vulnerable because of climate change; the extreme weather events and our extended drought is part of it.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/nov/12/neil-young-donald-trump-california-fires-climate-change

    “On Sunday, Los Angeles fire chief Daryl Osby told the Guardian that climate change was undeniably a part of why the fires were more devastating and destructive than in years past.” It seems undeniable, but deniers keep on denying, so all is not quite what it may seem, huh? The mass psychology of denial of reality is a predominant trend of our times. Leftists denying free speech are just a small part of that sociopathy. When denial starts killing people, a countervailing force is required. Also, the mass psychology of denial enabled institutions to victimise helpless children for generations: comprehension of how it operates is essential.

    “The emergency now equals the 1933 Griffith Park disaster in Los Angeles as the deadliest California wildfire on record… David Bowie’s long-term pianist Mike Garson tweeted on Saturday about losing his home and studio… Miley Cyrus said that she lost her home but escaped with her fiancé, the actor Liam Hemsworth, and their animals… Katy Perry and Rod Stewart also criticised Trump over his tweets.”

    • Sabine 6.1

      also if you want to open up federal parks to mining, logging and the likes , it makes perfect sense when the turd complains about ‘ This is NOT ‘proper’ Forrest management.

      at the end of the day, people like him and those that support him don’t care about climate change or anything.
      There is money to be made, and they rightly assume that the one with the most money will the insulated against all odds the longest.

      That you and i and others can’t breathe, die in fires, or floods, or mudslides, or or or is of no importance. We are units to be pressed for profit and we when outlived our purpose of extracting productivity and profit we are to die, silently if possible.

      A whole town burned, Paradise Valley, 27000 people, just lost their homes, 29 people are officially dead, many found in their cars trying to escape (very similar to a devastating fire a few years ago in OZ) and over 200 are still missing.

      Its sad that the rich have lost their homes but they have good insurance and will just move to somewhere else nice, the 27.000 people currently in shelters might not have that option.

      Its just sadness all around.

    • greywarshark 6.2

      Understanding what is reality which has to be faced will have been dented by too much television creating suspension of disbelief. Even news is not a case of seeing is believing. And listening and watching media gets in the way of thinking for yourself, and reading can help but are the books and newspapers presenting unslanted news. The more people get scared, the more they turn to cults which give a spurious sense of confidence and stability within their sheep pens for their flock.

      The rest of humanity howling about the dreadful happenings caused by other people and their machines, or climate change and nature’s aweful powers seem like shrieking wind gusts, or mad people. Don’t look at them Martha, they are evil.

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1

        Yes, well put. The wisdom of the crowd is the bright side of mass psychology – crowd-sourcing solutions often works surprisingly well (as anyone who has done brainstorming in group situations tends to realise). The dark side isn’t just denial, there’s worse stuff with that, and history is replete with instances.

        Postmodernism in the nineties denied that evil is real. A nuanced response was noticeably lacking in the media around this at the time. We must be careful to not assume warped people are evil – often they suffer ptsd from bad childhoods. I saw Norm Hewitt telling Duncan Garner the other day why he does non-violence counselling/advocacy work. Quite a story!

        • greywarshark 6.2.1.1

          Dennis Frank
          I am enjoying reading your thoughts and vision. All power to your fingertips and thinking brain and trickle down that wisdom! And we will still find things to disagree with of course, that’s par for the course, but it is great to see ideas that fit the present reality and venturing beyond.

    • Pat 6.3

      “The tinderbox conditions in California were already dangerous in January when Insurance Commissioner Dave Jones warned of the “growing problem” of fire insurance unavailability within the state.”

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-wildfires-property-insurers-cancel-policies-because-of-risk/

      and that was back in August, before the latest bout…..hows the aptly named FIRE economy going to function without its ‘I’?

  7. greywarshark 7

    What is the story about a ‘change of shipping routes’ which has resulted in non-supply of bananas? They are a food that we eat in large amounts. How often are we going to strijke non-delivery of imported things we need?

    We are so dependent on imports of so many things. The thinkers have registered that this is not good sense but the hunting capitalist dogs who have followed the scent of more money for them, and left us unself-sustaining.

    • WeTheBleeple 7.1

      My freezer still has a bag of bananas from last year. New bunches are emerging now. I try to give plants to people with young families they look at me like an alien – then go to the store and buy them, visible chemical residues and all. They’ll complain when they can’t get some.

      Meantime, I’m expanding: berries, nuts, cherries, guavas, olives, avocados, figs and more added just this year. Personal responsibility. I am over waiting on anyone.

      Shipping route changes? Military nonsense, or global warming perhaps…

      When Jacinda gave out those mandarin trees to Kiwibuild owners, the original thought was for lemons. but her adviser mentioned if they died, “Lemons turn out to be Lemons” would be the headlines… I had a fly on the wall at the garden centre the purchase was made.

      Can’t even plant trees without caution the right (with manicured nails) will find fault.

      But we could be planting our own banana crops there’s a few regions with the micro climates to pull it off.

      Diversification = resilience.

    • Sabine 7.2

      interesting, i am on a group of veggie garderners on fb, and up north, bananas are growing with relative ease as are pinapples.

      But hey, climate change and this and that can’t be it ,cause that would be inconvenient.

      I am looking at weather patterns here in the middle of the north island now and gosh it is the strangest thing.

      have planted my veggies as always, hoping to grow as much and freeze/can or dry surplus.

      We are truly living in interesting times.

      btw, England just discovered that most of their food is imported and comes by ship. Yes, the intellect that brought Brexit not once thought about something as simple as where does our food come from.

      • WeTheBleeple 7.2.1

        I’ve hosted a few artists from the UK. They fall over themselves when they try food from my garden. Just take a bite then sit there gobsmacked.

        Most have no idea what’s been taken from them in exchange for convenience. Not to mention the planet.

        Food miles and miles and miles….

        Go the locals!

        • Sabine 7.2.1.1

          Here is hoping, but then again, we still have a bit more garden the most of the English ever had. Lordships n such.

          Its gonna be a few hard miles that they will have to walk. And in saying that, unless you grow your food here in NZ you will eat the same stale veggies grown in hothouses, seasons be damned, as do the English.

        • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.2

          I had three Swiss visit my garden today. They marvelled at the huge size things they are familiar with at home as modestly sized, growing here to “outrageous” proportions. “Paradise”, the said, “No insect pests, no diseases…no snakes! We are greatly blessed here in NZ. If only we could tailor our behaviour to reflect just how fortunate we are! WTB sounds as though he/she is working on it!

      • greywarshark 7.2.2

        Can’t generalise like that Sabine. Britain has been taking our imports for years and was our biggest customer which enabled the farmers here to have some certainty for their produce. Then UK joined EU and there was a fair amount of negative thinking about that, so they didn’t manage to include allowance for all our trade (I suppose there was discussion?).

        Some years ago there was a move in UK to limit travelling miles for their food so there has been a move there to partially limit imports.

  8. Ad 8

    Lime Scooters is the stupidest moral panic I’ve ever seen.

    • Sam C 8.1

      Too right. 300,000 logged rides since introduction of Lime and 66 ACC claims, of which we don’t seem to know how many are more serious than cuts and bruises.

      Cf any Saturday in winter time – how many rugby related ACC injuries are there EVERY single week? Ridiculous.

      • James 8.1.1

        Or the number of acc claims from non-powered scooters.

        • Muttonbird 8.1.1.1

          Similarly, scooters and skateboards are recreational exercise equipment and have health benefits as such.

          Lime scooters are a means if transport.

      • Muttonbird 8.1.2

        But playing rugby is an activity sport keeping people fit. Powered scooters do the opposite. They also actively discourage walking if they are on the pavement.

    • SaveNZ 8.2

      I heard that there are more scooter claims for ACC than Lime scooter claims so the moral outrage is bizarre.

    • AB 8.3

      ‘Moral panic’ is a bit of a loaded description.
      If someone is intending to making a profit while externalising some of their costs onto the taxpayer – in this case the cost of injury – then people are rightly a bit miffed. It’s no different from farmers polluting waterways or trucking companies destroying roads.
      I can see how to cool urbanites it looks like moral panic – coming as it does from old fuddy duddies with zero knowledge of craft beers. However there are more fundamental issues in play. It actually illustrates how these self-styled cool ‘disrupters’ are incredibly dependent on the physical and cultural infrastructure of the world they are so keen to disrupt.

  9. Cinny 9

    Very pleased the government will be including religious organisations in the state child abuse inquiry.

    Thank you Tracy Martin for caring and looking out for our most vulnerable.

    • James 9.1

      Pity they aren’t including labour youth camps also.

      • adam 9.1.1

        Pity they aren’t including the ponytail puller also.

      • Cinny 9.1.2

        Don’t even joke about sexual abuse James, it’s bad form and shows a complete lack of understanding, compassion and class.

        • James 9.1.2.1

          I’m not joking.

        • James 9.1.2.2

          I’m not joking.

          And it was the way labour handled it – that showed a complete lack of understanding, compassion and class.

          • Cinny 9.1.2.2.1

            You really want to go there…. ok then….Princess parties show a complete lack of class.

            Your turn James…….because it’s a competition and worries about the feelings of those who have been abused.

            • James 9.1.2.2.1.1

              You equate the sexual assault of several young people at a labour camp Where criminal charges have been laid – to a guy I don’t know who had a princess themed party.

              • Cinny

                Re the labour camp, the police were involved.

                Re the princess party, did you not read dirty politics?

                A catholic PM would turn a blind eye, like bill english did.

                A PM who liked to stroke young girls hair, then did a runner and quit his job, liked to turn a blind eye as well.

                But my post was about including the church in the child abuse investigation and praise for doing so.

                • Morrissey

                  A PM who liked to stroke young girls hair…

                  He was far worse than that. He kept pulling the hair of that young woman in that cafe in Auckland, even after she begged him to stop. He then tried to buy her silence with a couple of bottles of wine.

                • Muttonbird

                  James is more than a little inconsistent on this.

                  On the one hand he supports Trump who is anti-immigrant, anti-LBGT, who uses prostitutes extra-maritally, and whose most famous quote is, “grab ’em by the pussy’. And on the other he’s convinced the NZ Labour Party has an endemic sexual abuse culture based on the actions of an errant youth or two.

                  James is also very supportive of the new Brazilian president, Jair Bolsonaro, who is anti-black, anti-LGBT, anti-maternity leave, and anti-environment. His most famous quote is, “(Rosario) is not worth raping; she is very ugly”.

                  I think from this we have a pretty clear portrait of James of this board. An urban red-neck who pretends to have concerns for the honour of women but whose regular commentary suggests otherwise.

                  • James

                    Really? Very supportive of Jair Bolsonaro huh?

                    Find a single post to back that up.

                    You can’t because you simply put are are liar.

                    I bet the best you can find is that I said he was charismatic – but that is not being “very supportive” or even indicating that I liked him at all.

                    You are a liar and should be called out as such.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Oh dear. Must have touched a nerve.

                    • James []

                      No – just telling complete lies.

                    • Muttonbird

                      I think you need to look up the synonyms and antonyms of the word charismatic and tell us again about your support for Jair Bolsonaro.

                      I note that you expressed your warm feelings toward him in direct response to a comment about our Prime Minister who you see as not charismatic at all.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.2.2

            Oh, the irony:

            “a complete lack of understanding, compassion and class.” – James @9.1.2.2

    • Morrissey 9.2

      Tracy Martin? Far from “caring and looking out for our most vulnerable”, she’s an advocate of kiddy-whacking.

      https://www.greens.org.nz/news/press-release/nz-first-putting-politics-child-protection

      Shane Jones, Ron Mark, Thrasher Martin, Mark Patterson. New Zealand First is a real achilles heel for this government.

      • Cinny 9.2.1

        Salisbury School, she backed them all the way. I think she is a fantastic MP, not perfect, but who is.

        Personally I don’t like Shane Jones at all, he maybe poetic with his words, but I just don’t like him.

        • greywarshark 9.2.1.1

          I’ll like Shane Jones if he gets on and does practical helpful things in the regions supporting reasonable initiatives and infrastructure and bettering standards of living. The regions are slipping and their sad about it, and we all should get behind them and make sure they get a better deal.

          At present there is in Northland fears of a new strain, stronger, of some bug that bugs them! I remember the story of Florence Harsant Te Maari, who rode round there and other regions in early 20th century telling people about the revolt against alcohol and its debilitating effects. She found whole villages dying of disease without aid, cordoned off to stop it spreading by medical authorities who had not followed up with sufficient help and medications. She had to secretly slip through herself to get the word out and so she could get help for herself.

          I don’t want to see regions being ignored and discarded again. It could happen as these drongoes who are running us with their smooth tongues and oily theories and trick-box paradigms and who follow the USA line could do what they have done to uneconomic regions there – for instance, Flint with its putrid drinking water, and the good stuff being bottled for and exported for profit. Industrially based cities have declared bankruptcy. I

        • Morrissey 9.2.1.2

          I don’t like Shane Jones at all, he maybe poetic with his words

          If the poet is William McGonagall.

          • greywarshark 9.2.1.2.1

            It’s unfair to mention McGonagall and not give a piece of his offerings.
            This one is about how they pushed him out of Dundee. I don’t know if it
            would work on anyone else. He did not accept any poetic rule except that it should rhyme.

            A New Year’s Resolution to Leave Dundee by William Topaz McGonagall

            Welcome! thrice welcome! to the year 1893,
            For it is the year I intend to leave Dundee,
            Owing to the treatment I receive,
            Which does my heart sadly grieve.
            Every morning when I go out
            The ignorant rabble they do shout
            ‘There goes Mad McGonagall’
            In derisive shouts as loud as they can bawl,
            And lifts stones and snowballs, throws them at me;
            And such actions are shameful to be heard in the city of Dundee.
            And I’m ashamed, kind Christians, to confess
            That from the Magistrates I can get no redress.
            Therefore I have made up my mind in the year of 1893
            To leave the ancient City of Dundee,
            Because the citizens and me cannot agree.
            The reason why? — because they disrespect me,
            Which makes me feel rather discontent.
            Therefore to leave them I am bent;
            And I will make my arrangements without delay,
            And leave Dundee some early day.

            Open Mike 13/11/2018

            • Morrissey 9.2.1.2.1.1

              Thanks for that, Shark. Wonderful!

              Bad poetry didn’t die with the Dryden of Dundee; it revived in a big way with some dreadful pop lyrics in the 1970s. I thought–and still think–that Rose Royce was one of the great disco groups, and in particular I love their classic “I Wanna Get Next To You.” It’s marred awfully, however, by the opening couplet, viz.

              Sittin’ here
              In this chair….

              Also truly awful are these three lines from Walter Egan’s “Magnet and Steel”:

              With you I’m not shy, to show the way I feel
              With you I might try, my secrets to reveal
              For you are a magnet and I am steel

              Even worse than those botched and cloth-eared attempts at scansion are rap lyrics, which generally lack wit. Take that epic tryhard Eminem, for instance. His sleazy and unclever fantasizing about what he’d like to do to the Spice Girls is an abject example of….

              …continues ranting and raving in this vein for hours…

              • gsays

                Go easy on slim shady mozza, he may not be your cup of tea but he is good at what he does.

                “Little hellions kids feeling rebellious
                Embarrassed, their parents still listen to Elvis
                They start feeling like prisoners helpless
                ‘Til someone comes along on a mission and yells “bitch”
                A visionary, vision is scary,
                Could start a revolution, pollutin’ the air waves a rebel
                So let me just revel and bask
                In the fact that I got everyone kissing my ass”

                “Though I’m not the first king of controversy
                I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley
                To do black music so selfishly
                And use it to get myself wealthy”

                Don’t get me wrong there is a lot of very bad poetry in rap, not just bad but harmful, misogynistic hate speech.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  My palms are sweaty, need enough rhymes to keep this rap steady, have I used spaghetti already, or a Yeti at a wedding throwing confetti at Steady Eddie…

                  Eminems aight… but those who think he’s some kinda genius who can’t be copied, well, they all reading their own press releases cos it’s BS.

                • Morrissey

                  Yes, admittedly he does have his moments, g.

                  However, I still prefer Colin Craig.

      • greywarshark 9.2.2

        Morrissey
        Don’t be so quick to heave ‘alf a brick. We need NZ First and they do their best from their thinking of the conservative people. Even you M, are not perfect but you are appreciated.

        Kiddy-whacking isn’t the worst sort of behaviour in our society. It has just become the scapegoat that we throw stones at while we ignore all the other beastly things we do. There were egregious punishment cases that needed the parents to go through re-education which couldn’t be done, because they had never been any in the first place. (Another example of NZ lack of reasoned standards.) Those parents need to be guided individually as to how children behave at certain ages and understand their psychology, why the kids act the way they do, and why the adult responds in a certain way and how to prevent either violence or psychological hurting, and what level of authority and limits there should be instead of feeling threatened when they misbehave.

    • Dennis Frank 9.3

      I agree, Cinny, it’s a surprisingly intelligent decision – for which our government deserves credit, and if she drove it through then I respect her initiative & perseverence. Will be interesting to see how the balance between healing & accountability is handled, eh?

  10. adam 10

    Warning!! A joke in this piece by Graham Elwood will offend the sensitive, and the hard right. Also another warning – it contains a far right loony nut bag who thinks killing people is fine. 6.31 – but video really ends at 5.57 rest is ads.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      That tweet by the Democrat at the end is rather interesting. Iran was democratic but the US decided that they didn’t like and staged a coup and then put in their own puppet monster.

      Seems that that Democrat has forgotten history.

  11. Observer Tokoroa 11

    The Trolls Hole

    One of the trolls on here has difficulty in understanding American politics.
    He / She claims that Mr Trump has a huge following.

    In fact, he has only one quarter 1/4 of the vote 2016 and probably less following the recent election in 2018.

    So how come he is President ? Because of a massive cooking of the books process, known as the “Electoral Commission”. A mere 538 persons are chosen to elect the President. The huge citizen Voters count for nothing.

    Which is why Trump got in as President. Quite simply because Voters don’t count in American Politics. Canada and New Zealand run reasonably well, because voting Citizens count in those Countries.

    Polls since 1967 have shown that a majority of Americans favor the president and vice president being elected by the nationwide popular vote, instead of by the Electoral College.[11][12] REF Wikipedia.

    Trump is basically a small time player with a small corrosive brain. Plus his long Black Hatred Coat.

    • Ad 11.1

      He has changed US and EU politics for a generation.

      He has defeated all his left foes and tamed the mainstream media.

      He stands in Republican terms at least as high as Reagan already.

      Good or bad Donald Trump is the Hegelian Spirit of the Age.

  12. Morrissey 12

    Apology to Dennis Frank

    On Sunday I flew off the handle after reading a reply by Dennis to one of my posts. I now realize that he was arguing in good faith, and that I was wrong and unfair to label him with the opprobrious epithets that I did.

    Sorry, Dennis.

    Anyone wishing to see for him/herself just how out of line I was can follow the whole thing by clicking on the following link….

    The Guns of November 2018

    • Antoine 12.1

      [laughs] Have you considered just not calling random people on the internet “depraved halfwits”?

      A.

      • Morrissey 12.1.1

        That’s exactly what I’m apologizing for, Antoine. There certainly are depraved halfwits amongst us, sadly. Just look at the ACT Party, the S.S. Trust, and the Hobson’s Choice gang. However, Dennis is not one of them.

        • Dennis Frank 12.1.1.1

          Thanks Morrissey, that’s a pleasant surprise. Apologies are an ancient way of restoring goodwill & mutual respect – social media would benefit from restoration of that form of interaction. Good on you.

          • WeTheBleeple 12.1.1.1.1

            Yeah I should own that I reacted badly at least.

            Sorry for calling you names Dennis.

  13. James 13

    And you are too thick to understand he won the most votes in the areas which allowed him to become president.

    He won it under the rules and the same setup as Hillary lost.

    You see that’s why he is president of the US and not a small time player.

  14. SaveNZ 14

    If the law is wrong, change it, Greens!

    Green MP Eugenie Sage accused of ‘rubber-stamping’ land sales to foreigners

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/375777/green-mp-eugenie-sage-accused-of-rubber-stamping-land-sales-to-foreigners

    (While they are about it, maybe the government should be worried about anybody with a warm body and ability to lie and cheat the paperwork being able to become a NZ permanent resident or citizen, and those who were not born in NZ, don’t live in NZ, contribute little to nothing here, but still get to keep permanent residency and citizenship and therefore the OIA don’t apply anyway and they get that free health, education and voting rights on their ‘holidays’ here while people are toiling away on low wages here to provide for them, should be looked at.)

    • Antoine 14.1

      > If the law is wrong, change it, Greens!

      Do they know how? Is it something they’ve done before?

      A.

      • SaveNZ 14.1.1

        Natz managed a lot of ‘urgent’ law changes very quickly, maybe inertia is the issue for the Greens as well as Labour and NZ First who also campaigned on reducing foreign sales?

      • Dennis Frank 14.1.2

        Fair call, I reckon. Obviously they can’t do it themselves but they could at least go public with a diagnosis of what’s wrong with the law, and explain precisely how they’d change it. That would reassure the broader Green movement.

        Concurrent lobbying of Labour & NZF for a law change would be sensible & it would be a mistake to assume that they aren’t doing so already.

        • SaveNZ 14.1.2.1

          “it would be a mistake to assume that they aren’t doing so already.”.. how slow can they go.

          Labour led government did the foreign residential sales ‘reform’ already, so that would have been a natural place to deal with the OIA,. Their work on the foreign residential sales has more holes in it than Swiss cheese… aka Singapore & OZ buyers can buy any property, anybody in the world can buy NZ new residential housing…. and of course the biggest issue in also how easy it is to just become a NZ resident or citizen and then even these few rules don’t count.

          • Dennis Frank 14.1.2.1.1

            I do agree. Not trying to defend them against that critique but, to be fair, there’s probably plenty of other priorities making demands on their time…

            • SaveNZ 14.1.2.1.1.1

              Probably because Labour and NZ First forgot to read their 6000 page rebrand TPPA and work out the future consequences for a lowly 7 out of 10 trade deal which trades our sovereignty on houses, land, assets and profits to get lead taps, more plastic and asbestos trains and poor environmental regulation.

              Likewise the fine print on all the other great trade deals seems to be an issue.

              Weird how NZ’s rock star economy has so much debt now while our kids live in cars and it costs someone 1/4 of their wage to drive to work.

              Lucky latte’s are a flowing with that $2 p/h barista with the coffee delivered by the clapped out truck subcontractor who is ‘independently’ contracted on less than minimum wages. Our internet is so bad possibly because Chorus subcontractors had 97% breaches of employment law when checked by the Labour inspectorate.

              Yep +1 Greens for not supporting TPPA deal, but they seem to have given up on important quality issues going forward or being a strong advocate on that subject… and rubber stamping OIA seems part of the apathy rather than urgency to make significant changes against the establishment not just go for the easy targets of middle NZ aka petrol taxes and cycle lanes.

              Likewise Labour, sucking up to big business is different from standing up to bad business which is what the Green used to do but now appears cold on the issue.

              • greywarshark

                savenz
                I don’t see that we can afford to spend time fighting to the death for full integrity of everything or even much beyond the minimum plus some built in resilience, and if I hear again that we want ‘the best in the world’ I’ll have to restrain myself from kicking that person. The term ‘best practice’ is also extremely irritating when I find myself having to real rule books about process and health and safety that impede honest micro and small business and income boosting. Why is it that companies can break useful laws and force their way into the market at will, and ordinary Joes and Josies have to meet draconian perfectionism? Shane Jones you’re known for bluffness; can you call the pea-brained Departments and their Uriah-like minions off the bureaucratic nonsense and send them out to work in the fields like the Chinese re-educating dictators.

                We are up against the mincing bureaucrats, and don’t cares in the country too much, and our time in this still pleasant place is limited. Soon it will be encroaching disasters that will completely fill our minds, airwaves and screens (notice how we get blow-by-blow info about USA disasters, plus people on the ground interviews as if we ar hearing our next-door neighbours.) If some of the NZ buggers finally wake up and think of our whole country instead of their own pleasure and self-satisfaction, it will be too late to make much difference. And they will and it will be mea culpa but I’ll just look at their sincere but still mendacious faces and think so what.

                So I think try to see how the lefties can get things done that make some difference. So much time is being wasted while people niggle about this and that. Like old-fashioned oldies who don’t find anything today is any good. Well F.O. people like that, it’s time for pragmatic idealism. So let’s hear some implementation strategies from you savenz as you have a good grounding in thinking and understanding of what’s going on out there.

      • Macro 14.1.3

        Do they know how? Is it something they’ve done before?
        Off the top of my head here is one notable example:
        S59 of the Crimes Act –
        Or have you forgotten?
        But it takes time to change the law – even when you have a couple of MPs in Cabinet.
        Perhaps you might look up how laws are actually legislated in NZ, and then look at the responsibilities of Ministers of Govt to uphold the laws for which they are responsible. I’m sure that at this very moment, Govt Depts are drafting amendments to a multitude of Acts for consideration by the Crown Law office before being presented to Parliament.

        • Antoine 14.1.3.1

          > S59 of the Crimes Act

          That was Sue Bradford. No longer in Parliament. Does Eugenie Sage know what to do? Has she run any law changes since Lab/Greens took power, or is she known to have any in the works?

          A.

          • Macro 14.1.3.1.1

            Sue didn’t do it all herself, she had support from her caucus, and at the time she was a Green MP.
            Yes.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.4

        Yes, they know how but they still have to work with others to get it changed and some of those others may not want to change it.

        • Antoine 14.1.4.1

          NZ 1st or Labour want to continue ‘‘rubber-stamping’ land sales to foreigners’? Really?

          A.

          • Draco T Bastard 14.1.4.1.1

            Labour certainly gives indications that it does. That’s why they’re talking about minor restrictions rather a complete ban.

            • Jack Ramaka 14.1.4.1.1.1

              Labour are purely a light weight version of the National China Party, and are very pro Chinese purchases of NZ Assets after all it was Helen who got the ball rolling on land and house sales to Chinese buyers. Doubt whether Jacindarella will do anything about it ?

  15. SaveNZ 15

    This was from NZ News on FB and shared by a farmer who would normally vote blue, maybe the farmers are starting to hate John Key and opportunity for NZ First?

    “In 2008 New Zealand’s population was 4.2 million people, and total government debt was 10.3 billion dollars.
    By 2017, after nine years of the John Key led National government New Zealand’s population had climbed to over 4.7 million, a gain of over 500,000 people and net government debt had soared to $66.4 billion a rise of $56.1 billion!
    But how could this be? For nine years Kiwis have been told that we have a rockstar economy, that we have economic growth, and that the economy is doing well!
    The truth is that Kiwis have been lied to.
    New Zealand has not had economic growth all we have had is massive population growth, and our economy has not been keeping up with the enormous inflows of people.
    In 2008 New Zealand did not have capacity in our schools for another 500,000 people, we did not have capacity in our hospitals for another 500,000 people, we did not have capacity on our major motorways for another 500,000 people, and we did not have enough housing stock for another 500,000 people. But that did not stop the National Party who used immigration to fool the public into believing we had a strong economy by opening the floodgates, even while they were running current account deficits and borrowing money to help infrastructure cope with the massive new demands.
    For the last ten years, the New Zealand economy has been underpinned by construction activity. This is not construction activity associated with economic growth ( which would be paid for out of foreign exchange earnings, ) it is construction activity associated with population growth (building houses) and has been funded in the main by a massive increase in the country’s mortgage debt.
    Mortgage debt increased from around 130 billion dollars in 2008 to over 250 billion in 2016 as Key and English used immigration to prop up the National Party.
    John Key isn’t the first to use immigration to create a false economy, Helen Clark also relied on it, and Jacinda Ardern is carrying on, even though pre-election promises were contrary.
    So why did Key do this to fellow Kiwis?
    John Key said on a number of occasions that governments live and die on employment, in other words, the voting public will retain a political party if they feel things are going well and their jobs are ok. Most of the New Zealand public do not understand the economy, and even today most are unaware that under Key total debt in New Zealand has ballooned to a historic 500 billion dollars.
    John Key never said that immigration was good for the economy and he never said it was good for the environment, his priority was to retain power so he could continue to be PM and if that meant misleading the voters,( like a lot of politicians do) then so be it.
    If New Zealand wants to be a wealthy country, then we must protect our number one source of wealth, our environment, and we need a small population. The larger our population becomes, the poorer we will become.”

    • greywarshark 15.1

      Ahem. Is anyone with a beefy neck listening? Or a wiry aesthetically slim one who believes in austerity for us and posterity for him/her?

      And I wouldn’t mind a few clicks to separate paras here and there – I don’t count those as interference with the original text, just signposts on the pathso I don’t bypass a place to stop and absorb some useful thing.

      It’s sort of like the computer games where you pick up useful stuff as you go along that you can utilise from your arsenal when under attack or danger.

  16. Dennis Frank 16

    “Magical thinking has persisted until now, but time’s up.” Damn! Just when we needed it most! Oh well, a Guardian writer, so he’s probably got it wrong. Let’s hope.
    https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/peoples-vote-brexit

    Magic remains an unsuitable topic in contemporary society, for a bunch of very good reasons. Primarily for promotion of delusional outlooks on life and effects on mental health. However acts of magic can be effective in politics, since human groups are complex systems and all it takes to trigger a phase shift is a single person acting with power in the right place at the right time. The Brits remain in stasis, awaiting such a one!

    “Regrettably, a great many others in the political class have succumbed to wilful blindness, choosing the craven option of quiet complicity, rather than the harder path that a public recognition of reality would entail. They claim only to be enacting the “will of the people”, expressed in the 2016 referendum, as though they have no corollary responsibility to respond as representatives of their constituents to all that has emerged in the past two and a half years about the likely form and consequences of Brexit.”

    “In this context, the resignation of Jo Johnson on Friday was much more significant than his brother Boris’s in July …the first time that a senior remainer, a minister sometimes tipped as a future Tory leader, has left the government over our prospective exit from the EU. And he did so because he believes, correctly, that the prime minister is presenting the nation “with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos”.”

    “All the logic – remember that? – points to an extension of article 50, more talks and a people’s vote. Much more probable is a political collapse in which May is ousted, or a general election is forced by parliamentary impasse – or both.” Yes, I do remember logic – a rather boring type of cerebral process, but useful in physics & maths. May’s deployment of it proves the limited utility it has as a political tool. Crisis looming, hard Brexit seeming inevitable now…

  17. greywarshark 17

    This is awfully long – I kept finding useful links and thinking where they fitted into the larger picture that we keep forgetting about while we watch the sitcoms of politics and everyday attempts at satire by esteemed capitalists and their ilk that actually aren’t funny.

    A few facts re the USA with or without Robbin sTump Hood and his merry men and women.

    About Flint, Michigan and their state-of-the-art state water bottling welcome, while the citizens have a putrid system for their own city use, and have to buy bottled water to be satisfied they aren’t killing themselves. (And there used to be a fear of Russians or some black-hearted furriner or terrorist poisoning public water. In the USA they do it to each other!) And now they have a disposal problem of all the plastic bottles. Great, technology can solve all our problems. We thought when they said that, it was for a good result for us all. But wait, the quote didn’t specify what!

    So I don’t know if there’s any way to find out how tied to “Big Water” our Governor is. I do know, however, that his former Chief of Staff, Dennis Muchmore, is married to Deb Muchmore, who happens to be a corporate spokesperson for Nestlé. If her name sounds familiar, it might be because, not too many years ago, she was the one explaining to us in Michigan why it was OK for Nestlé’s Ice Mountain brand to export so much of our most precious natural resource from Mecosta County. “Nestlé brings jobs and supports the economy,” she said at the time. “Ice Mountain cannot by law stop the flow of springs when they withdraw water,” Muchmore added. “They have not dried up any wells. No streams have dried up. No ecosystems have been harmed. The science backs this up.” Of course, this didn’t prove to be the case. As the result of a subsequent court case, in which it was brought to light that the Michigan Department for Environmental Quality (MDEQ) had seen a “measurable impact on certain waters and wetlands” in the Muskegon aquifer as a result of Nestlé’s pumping, the plant was forced to cut its production by half. [It’s still unclear what the long range effects of years of extraction will be.
    http://markmaynard.com/2016/01/while-its-nice-that-people-are-sending-bottles-of-water-to-flint-i-cant-help-but-wonder-where-that-money-is-going/

    Bankrupt USA cities?
    On Thursday, the city of Detroit filed for bankruptcy protection after being saddled with debts totaling more than $18.5 billion. That makes Detroit the largest city in the United States ever to file for bankruptcy — the previous record was held by Stockton, California, which was half the size and owed $26 million. Jul 18, 2013
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/07/18/USA cities bandrupt interactive map

    See what the clever, slippery financiers did about Detroit.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/petesaunders1/2018/07/19/detroit-five-years-after-bankruptcy/#62999a8dcfeb

    Key interfered with our pension fund building. Financiers are now interfering with ones that have already been built in the USA.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/retirement/more-retirees-are-broke-and-going-bankrupt/ar-BBLzUuR

    https://wqad.com/2018/05/09/rock-island-and-moline-among-20-illinois-cities-a-watchdog-group-says-should-declare-bankruptcy/

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/bankrupt-public-employee-pensions-the-next-big-financial-crisis/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/upshot/the-great-disconnect-megacities-go-global-but-lose-local-links.html

    This is interesting in a depressing sort of way.
    https://www.toptenz.net/10-things-happen-united-states-went-bankrupt.php

    We don’t know how lucky we are sang John Clarke!
    (He went to Australia and died early. Perhaps he was lucky. The rest of us can’t get the constipated conservatives to pass into law a reasoned, ethical system of choosing how to die even for people already terminally ill. While they wail about the growing cost of coping with our last four years of decline.)

    We have been lucky. (Saying – Those were the best years of my life. I wish I had enjoyed them more.l) But not for long; can thinking people cut through the wilful ignorance and get people thinking about the problems looming so we can alleviate them, and prepare for further steps after alleviation has run its course? Can we get people building intentional communities where everybody has a say and they aren’t patriarchal cults or authoritarian closed camps?

    Listen, read, watch for the following episodes in this fascinating series!

  18. greywarshark 18

    Somebody here recently put up a link to Scottish chap – name won’t come to me.
    I am halfway through listening to it when I’ve time. But he mentioned Apple and how it seems to be nearing the moon because it is sitting on such a growing mound of cash and assets.

    So here is link about the corporates and their stash.
    http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/apple-overseas-cash-repatriation-gop-tax-plan/

    Overseas cash repatriation is an issue that’s been important to multinational corporations for a long time. It’s estimated that more than $2.6 trillion in corporate profits have been sitting in foreign bank accounts waiting for a tax break to be freed up. Apple’s overseas cash alone amounted to $252.3 billion, a treasure trove the company had been loathe to repatriate due to how much it would lose paying foreign cash taxes.

    The new GOP tax law allows U.S. companies to repatriate cash at reduced rates for a limited time. As a part of the tax reform, repatriation tax rates could be as low as 8%, compared to the 35% companies traditionally pay to repatriate that money, the New York Times reports.

    Why not be practical you USA tax experts. Money is a theoretical substance anyway. Keep it flowing with reasonable concessions. Treat it like a game of chess and maneouvre your opponent corporates around for the good of the country and the world’s economy. And so says this thinking pawn.

    The USA went off the gold standard because it was too limiting for building vast private empires and large projects and innovations. Now they are treating the count of resultant figures recorded on some substance that shows up when energy is supplied, everything ephemerally visible, as if it the wealth was still able to be marshalled and guarded in a physical way. Concepts mateys, get your agile minds thinking around this taxable hoard and get it moving you creeps.
    Yours sincerely, wellwisher.

  19. joe90 19

    Corsi and his WingNutDaily were primary promoters of the birther smears.

    BREAKING: Roger Stone pal Jerome Corsi tells my colleague @annaschecter that Mueller's investigators informed Corsi about a week ago he will be indicted for perjury. "When they have your emails and phone records…they're very good at the perjury trap," he says.— Ken Dilanian (@KenDilanianNBC) November 12, 2018

    • Sabine 19.1

      Perjury trap.

      damn, they caught me lyin!!!

      lol

      • joe90 19.1.1

        Context.

        • Sabine 19.1.1.1

          i am going to need a huge bucket of buttered popcorn when this all comes to a movie theater near us. Bugger James Bond, that is so outdated now.

  20. joe90 20

    Progressive Kyrsten Sinema drifted to the incrementalist centre, and it looks like she’s taken a blood red state.

    Arizona’s Senate race isn’t over. But Kyrsten Sinema should be feeling awfully good about her chances.

    Down narrowly on election night, the Democratic congresswoman overtook Republican Martha McSally two days later and has since padded her lead to nearly 32,000 votes as mail-in ballots have been tallied. At this point, it would take a stunning reversal for the Republican to mount a comeback, since the vast majority of outstanding votes are in areas of the state where Sinema is ahead, in some cases by significant margins.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/2018-arizona-senate-election-sinema-mcsally-984928

  21. Ad 21

    I never like the left blaming the media for being unfairly treated, but when even Bloomberg starts to notice, it’s clearly getting bad.

    Just in case any fool on the left thinks it would be easy to implement a Financial Transactions Tax, in the form of ATM fees:

    “Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (universally known as AMLO) does not take office until next month, but Mexico’s stock market on Thursday suffered its biggest one-day decline in since 2011, plunging 5.81 percent, after his party’s leader in the Senate announced plans to stop banks from levying fees on ATM withdrawals and on other transactions.

    On Friday morning, the Senate leader, Ricardo Monreal, said that he made this announcement without first talking to AMLO. He added that the matter was still under consideration, but that the rights of bank customers were important, and that the Senate was an autonomous body. Then on Friday afternoon, AMLO gave a press conference in which he ruled out “any modification” of Mexico’s banking regulations during his first three years in office.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-11/oil-plunges-why-it-complicates-an-already-complicated-economy

    And where was the international investor (or anoy other) outcry when the new President Bolsinaro promised to gut the Brazilian pension scheme, backbone of the social welfare of Brazil?

    Tumbleweed.

    Mexicans might wonder why Brazil’s populist government is given the benefit of the doubt and theirs isn’t. International investors have an impression of a populist government in Mexico that is not yet ready for prime time. Mexicans may well have an impression of international capitalists bullying their elected leaders over matters that are little or none of their business.

    Regrettably while the left can wave their moral wand and tell the investor community to go fuck themselves, the investor community actually fucks you over.

    • Antoine 21.1

      > And where was the international investor (or anoy other) outcry when the new President Bolsinaro promised to gut the Brazilian pension scheme, backbone of the social welfare of Brazil?

      Just to be clear, it really needs gutting (even from a centre-left perspective). For example, things are not right when (some) civil servants can retire at 55 on a full pension far in excess of the average wage. That money should be going into e.g. education.

      A.

  22. OnceWasTim 23

    And now for something completely different:
    ……. that issue re immigration that’s caused so much comment and speculation on TS and in the MSM in recent days.
    Something quite a few already knew, but the many others eagre for a ‘gotcha’ moment were desperate to use in the service of opinion pieces and spin lines and QT:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108561285/immigration-minister-not-given-karel-sroubeks-full-criminal-history

  23. OnceWasTim 24

    Maybe have a listen to Checkpoint tonight…..you’ll get a bit more of an insight into the gNat connection.
    Btw……Did you notice how the gNats and their agents have gone all quiet recently?

    • I feel love 24.1

      It’s world kindness day afterall. Can someone link the Checkpoint items if when they come up? Thanks.

  24. Eco Maori 25

    To my Nemesis been fixing my computer they have cost me thousands I will never back down

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