Open mike 02/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:54 am, September 2nd, 2014 - 439 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

439 comments on “Open mike 02/09/2014”

  1. Draco T Bastard 1

    Need one of these for NZ.

  2. Tigger 2

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/01/guest-blog-angry-lawyer-collins-odgers-williams-and-legal-ethics/

    Angry Lawyer writes that Cathy Odgers, Jordan Williams and Judith Collins are the type of lawyers we don’t need and gives details in complaining about them to the Law Society. There are links there to lodge a complaint.

    Nice point in comments by Paul Carruthers about Key declaring Alan Hubbard guilty of fraud before the SFO investigation – inappropriate at the least and possibly swayed the investigation.

    • dv 2.1

      Here is more by Paul Carruthers about SFC.
      It seems very smelly.

      Open mike 01/09/2014

    • David H 2.2

      Have you seen this from Chris Barton at the Herald.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11317719

      he says this

      It’s this owning of the news agenda by the government, witnessed during the GCSB Bill debate and now with the Dirty Politics revelations, that leads to an inescapable conclusion. We, the media, are not properly doing our job. If we were, the public faced with this massive Machiavellian network of lies and deceit, would give a damn. Instead, to paraphrase John Key’s masterful direction to an emasculated 4th estate: At the end of the day the public will see this is nothing but a left wing conspiracy smear campaign.

      It’s like what is this the Herald. I admit it’s sort of hidden in the tech section but a lot of people will read this. And maybe it will finally start to filter through their thick skulls that they are being played.

    • Tracey 2.3

      For the record, Shakespeares comment about first lets kill all the lawyers, as i understand it, is a reference to if we want no freedom etc, we first get rid of lawyers. So, in fact, it is a positive comment about lawyers.

      As a former lawyer, i completely agree with angry lawyer and paul carruthers.

      But please, no one hold their breath waiting on tge Law Society to do the right thing… Judith collins was once deputy president

  3. dv 3

    Herald has an interactive inequality calculator for nz
    Which includes what draco is looking for.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11317223

    • hoom 3.1

      Quite curiously ‘left’ for a Herald article.
      Hidden away in the Personal Finance section so not terribly likely to be actually read much.

      Which is a terrible shame because it actually demolishes the ‘inequality isn’t getting worse’ argument.

      The interactive says of my ‘top 30%’ of household incomes

      Over the last 30 years, all incomes have grown, but not at the same rate. A household like yours is now 3% – or $2324 a year – worse off than it would be if all incomes had grown evenly.

      ends with

      In fact, only the richest 10% of households are benefitting from rising inequality — they are much better off than than they would be if everyone’s income had grown evenly.

      And a link to http://closertogether.org.nz/do-something/ (I guess Herald just lifted it direct from there) which then linked me on to http://www.inequality.org.nz/understand/rich-really-pay-tax/ because I am willing to pay more tax to help provide services to those who need it.

      • Tracey 3.1.1

        A useful soundbite in there for Cunliffe if he bothers to use it

      • hoom 3.1.2

        Hidden away in the Personal Finance section so not terribly likely to be actually read much.

        I now see they actually have a direct link banner at the top of Herald website.
        Not sure if that was there before but big props to them for that!

  4. Sanctuary 4

    Has anyone else picked up this little titbit?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11312402

    “…Partway through Wednesday there had been 18,000 downloads of the Morning Report interview, making it the most downloaded item ever on the RNZ website…”

  5. Draco T Bastard 5

    Dame Anne Salmond: A warning to New Zealanders keep hold of democracy

    In 2007, John Key, then Leader of the Opposition, gave a powerful speech to the New Zealand Press Club against the Electoral Finance Bill. He declared: “Here in New Zealand we often take our democratic freedoms for granted. We think they will always be there. We have a Bill of Rights which is supposed to protect our right to freedom of expression. What on earth could go wrong?”

    “I have a different view. I believe what Thomas Jefferson said – that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. There are times when we have to stand up for our rights, and the rights of our neighbours and friends, and indeed the rights of people we totally disagree with, or else these rights will begin to erode away.”

    I agree with these sentiments, absolutely. New Zealanders must stand up for their democratic rights when they are threatened, or they’ll lose them.

    Who could have imagined that in 2013, this same political leader would be presiding over an assault upon the democratic rights of New Zealanders?

    Well, I could.

    • Tracey 5.1

      and the herald hasn’t had a single headline proclaiming the death of democracy or seeking the resignation of collins or Key

      • Tigger 5.1.1

        It’s ripe for satire: Democracy Under Attack! By Us!

        • Tracey 5.1.1.1

          Invasion of the Morality Snatchers

        • Rich 5.1.1.2

          Democracy means something different to Key and co, obviously. Something like ‘as it’s our democracy it is our right to get elected, if it looks like they other side might, well there’s something wrong with it’.

          • Tracey 5.1.1.2.1

            It means the same thing to him as chuck I Of england and wales and ireland and scotland

            • Rich 5.1.1.2.1.1

              Yes there’s definitely a sense of entitlement, as you can see when it’s stated that Dotcom or Hager is about to steal the election.

              A nobles word was worth 12 peasants in the medieval period was it not? Something like that anyway.

    • crocodill 5.2

      I find it hilarious that a Dame could be talking about democracy with any credibility. Only emphasising the part of the Jefferson quote that takes a partisan stand doesn’t help either. I guess she views her status as “upholding the objectionable views of her oppressive masters for the sake of democracy”. Hand back the Royal Honours and then we can talk. Oh the irony of being a commander of the British Empire for services to Maori. The Empire serviced them good, reeel good. What a joke

      • Colonial Viper 5.2.1

        Nice distraction/derail into the NZ monarchy-honours system.

        Now, do you have any comment about John Key’s active role in this egregious attack on democracy after, as Dame Salmond so deftly pointed out, he pretended to be such an advocate of democracy?

        • crocodill 5.2.1.1

          No distraction at all. Plain fact that bias and events don’t appear out of a vacuum. You were saying the same thing yesterday in the condolences thread. Nice attempt to tell me what to talk about, though. LOL. Dame Salmond Deafly points things out, I’ll go halfway with you on that.

          Tell me about how only people who make appeals to authority should be listened to about democracy. Oh Anne you’re so high and mighty and educated and compromised. Tell me what to think because I don’t already have an old encyclopaedia from 1980!

          But you want careful insight into John Key. Hmmm, tough one that, viper. Hmmm. Maybe we could apply the same bleeding obvious measure to him too, if it makes you feel better.

          • Colonial Viper 5.2.1.1.1

            Oh I just spotted you attacking the messenger like a pro, so I figured you knew exactly what you were doing as a derail. Which you do.

            Nice attempt to tell me what to talk about, though. LOL. Dame Salmond Deafly points things out, I’ll go halfway with you on that.

            I asked you a question – what do you think about John Key’s active role in attacking NZ democracy. Turns out you have nothing useful to say about that, which is ironic for someone so purportedly concerned about “democracy”.

            • Murray Olsen 5.2.1.1.1.1

              I agree CV. Crocodill is a bit better prepared than the average RWNJ, but the intent is pretty obvious.

          • greywarbler 5.2.1.1.2

            @ crocdill
            Don’t cry false crocodile tears meaning to mess around with left leaning opinions. You don’t do anything for the left in that so save your smart remarks for whaleoil. And don’t diss Dame Anne Salmond. She’s worth a thousand of you.

    • Tracey 5.3

      Maori Seats

      ” Last night’s Maori Television Reid Research Poll of 500 voters showed 50 per cent of respondents would vote for Flavell if the election were held now.

      Internet-Mana’s Annette Sykes, who was thought to be mounting a strong challenge in Waiariki, was well behind on 21 per cent, followed by Labour’s Rawiri Waititi on 17 per cent. NZ Independent Coalition’s Pat Spellman was on 2 per cent.

      The Maori Party received just 0.7 per cent support in this month’s stuff.co.nz-Ipsos political poll.

      As with the same poll in Te Tai Tonga and Te Tai Hauauru, Labour polled the strongest on the party vote with 35 per cent support, followed in Waiariki by the Maori Party on 26 per cent, Internet-Mana on 14, National on 11, NZ First on 8 and the Greens on 5.

      Labour was also again the party the voters wanted the Maori Party to work with – at 63 per cent to 26 per cent for National.

      They also overwhelmingly wanted to see the Maori Party and Mana work together, though that is highly unlikely with Mana’s refusal to work with National and the Maori Party maintaining its position that it would work with whichever party was in power to ensure it had influence.

      Mana founder Hone Harawira famously forced a by-election in Te Tai Tokerau in 2011 when he walked out on the Maori Party, partly over its relationship with National.

      This is the third poll aired by Native Affairs, with Labour’s Rino Tirikatene the outright favourite in Te Tai Tonga and the Maori Party’s Chris McKenzie just ahead in Te Tai Hauauru.

      The poll, which was taken between July 23 and August 14, has a margin of error of 4.38 per cent. Fairfax NZ “

    • ianmac 5.4

      Isn’t there a story somewhere about hungry people eating themselves to stay alive?

    • disturbed 5.5

      Draco T 100%++++++++++

      This petition;

      http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Governor_General_of_New_Zealand_Investigate_all_the_allegations_of_corruption_in_the_National_government/?keArPbb

      Governor General of New Zealand: Investigate all the allegations of corruption in the National government

      10,000 is the target and already 3 000 have signed up, please ship this around.
      3,000 signers. Let’s reach 10,000

      Why this is important to me

      People at all levels of the National Government of New Zealand, including the Prime Minister, have been reported to be undermining the democracy of New Zealand by using their power to sway justice, influence the media and compromise the privacy laws of New Zealand. Conspiring to defeat justice is a very serious crime.

      We, the people of New Zealand, would like an immediate official Royal Commission run by the Crown. As the results will influence the pending election it is essential that this inquiry takes place before the election. We demand that the investigation be completely independent and without any Political interference.

      We would like all the allegations of corruption including those in the book ‘Dirty Politics’, written by world-renowned investigative journalist Nicky Hager, and any other allegations that have been raised that relate to the National Party and opposition parties in New Zealand to be thoroughly investigated. We want democracy to reign in New Zealand. We want our government to be free of corruption.

    • Rich 5.6

      In this case freedom of speech John Key style is not for the citizens it is for the corporate entities.

      Quoting that in its entirety though might tend to make Key look ok to someone browsing this site, or might help it to go better in google searches. I hope that this was accidental on your part.

  6. (this was deleted from the condolance-thread..)

    if we don’t fix this shit..this gross/accelerating poverty/inequality..

    ..we are on the road to either revolution..or fascism/a police state…

    ..we have a man with both mental and serious medical issues..he ‘came home to die’..

    ..and despite him seemingly doing all he could..contacting mp’s etc..

    ..he was left homeless in ashburton…for three fucken years..?

    ..he is on trial..work and income are on trial..ashburton is on trial..(the ‘warmth’/compassion of small-town nz..yeah right..!..25 complaints from the ‘good citizens’ of ashburtn..’cos the guy was homeless/staying in a tent..)

    ..and the whole fuck-the-poor of the last 30 yrs from both national and labour..

    ..and funny story..!..labour in govt again has no plans for the likes of this shooter…

    ..labour have no policies to help the childless poor…they have made that much clear..

    ..and yes..my heart goes out to the families of those shot/killed..how could it not..?

    ..they have children/people who love them..who are now broken..

    ..and tho’ there is no excusing his actions..

    ..there is explaining of them to be done..

    ..very little happens in a vacuum..

    ..and the question to be asked is:

    ..why is/was there no help for a mentally/physically ill..with a short life-span..homeless man,.?

    ..and all those other childless poor in new zealand..?

    ..all those other homeless..?

    ..that central/local govt just don’t seem to give a flying fuck about..

    ..and neither..seemingly..does labour..

    ..it is only the greens/int/mana who have basic-income policies..

    ..labour will just leave them to rot..

    ..just ask parker..

    ..he has no plans to help the worst off..

    ..last election we didn’t care about children in poverty..

    ..this election we apparantly do..

    ..maybe by 2017 the childless poor will also rate a mention..?

    ..but i’m not holding my breath..

    ..and tho’ this is a horror for the participants/victims..

    ..it is impossible to remove the politics from this double-murder..

    ..without being in total-denial..

    ..and hopefully we can move past the grieving period..

    ..and that we will take better care of people like this sad/mad gunman..

    ..who just ‘lost it’..in such a terrible way..

    • vto 6.1

      I agree phil.

      The Ashburton shootings were an act of violence against the government. A New Zealand citizen has taken up arms against the offices of government. It was a form of civil war – against a type of government epitomised by John Key and against the split and spit between the rich and poor.

      People need to wake up and realise what this was. Then take action to remedy. Many though will simply pull their blinkers on harder and refuse to acknowledge this.

      It is as serious as it gets for a society

      • Tracey 6.1.1

        Maybe, or maybe he thought a prison bed would be a better bet than living rough? Although he didnt need to kill people to get imprisoned

        Or maybe he was angry

        Or maybe

        I agree surrounding circs have to be examined but it is unlikely there is just one reason conscisi

        • phillip ure 6.1.1.1

          @ tracey..he wd have thrown a brick thru the winz-office window if he was just seeking a boob-bed..

          • Tracey 6.1.1.1.1

            He might have just thrown a brick if he wanted to make a point about WINZ too.

            I am not going to argue the toss.

          • crocodill 6.1.1.1.2

            Well we can be sure he didn’t want to die, because he didn’t bring a golf club with him. Any takers on why he locked his bike up before going inside?

    • Awww 6.2

      I cannot imagine the pain this fellow was in both emotionally and physically due to his condition. My thoughts are with Mr Tully at this time.

      Unfortunately in jail he will get more assistance than he did outside due to the increasing reluctance to assist those with serious conditions like homelessness, or a disability.

      “The 48-year-old had “come home to die” from an unidentified skin disease which caused boil-type lumps if untreated and tightened the joints causing limited movement.

      It had placed him on a disability benefit and was likely to worsen. His doctor said he should have a mobility scooter.”

      Forget the scooter. The guy couldn’t even get a real bed to sleep on – until he took to killing people.

      • Tracey 6.2.1

        Yup tragic all round. Needless murder of two people, injuries, suffering to those at WINZ and the families and friend sof folks involved.

        If there is something to learn we have to learn it but for now comfort is required.

        • aerobubble 6.2.1.1

          Many are losing their jobs, even their homes, in Australia, and are returning when they find they have no access to Welfare. Those returning in the wake of the GFC are not all going to be cashed up. And yes some will have mental health issues. That’s why we train WINZ staff to manage all types of people (or do we, question one). With the ongoing changes in benefits is it any wonder that without proper feedback on the effects (National don’t like collecting information, aka poverty, question two). Its widely acknowledged within beneficiaries numbers that WINZ is confrontational, in that it leads to people being trespassed (question three, have trespassed number being rising). Now to the specifics. A mentally deranged person may believe their best course, besides dying from the cold next to a river, seeing that prisoners are better looked after yet fearing going to prison may delude themselves into believing that its would best to have a high status in the eyes of prisoners, be feared. So question four is how has it come to this, that a lonely marginalize person having suffered great loss and be forced to return to NZ even though they turned their backs on NZ, could not get a roof over their head, was actually trespassed in a small rural town with no other options. Did they teach nothing to WINZ staff about marginalizing the marginalize more? Sure, we must condemn him for the murders and injuries both physical and mental he has caused, but should it be shown that he was deranged and mentally unstable, then this falls back on the MInister of Social Development. A lawyer for the workers, their public service union, at WINZ should be looking into suing the department for a unsafe work place. Its doesn’t matter whether they are Police, or welfare staff, everyone has a right to a safe working environment. And given the fact that WINZ needs guards in every office nowadays its suggest that the government has created an unsafe working place. That has been exasperated by the John Keys government welfare reforms. If I were the minister I would have offered my resignation already, not only for the reasons above, but that National needs to start taking responsibility. Personal responsibility. And Bennett may well them become the next opposition leader and National having clean off its now besmirched brand. I can live in hope I suppose but this right wing cult at the heart of National just doesn’t go in to moments of disunity, no matter how pressing, how deliberate, or necessary, or even, self interested. Bennett resign already.

    • Tautoko Viper 6.3

      http://campaign.labour.org.nz/labour_s_plan_to_end_homelessness

      http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/labour-plans-to-tackle-homelessness-2014083107

      Phillip, did you miss this announcement?
      “The Labour Party has a new plan to end homelessness by converting empty state houses into emergency accommodation.

      It is estimated around 1500 New Zealanders are sleeping rough, and Labour wants a working group to come up with a way to get them into homes.

      Labour leader David Cunliffe says renovating vacant state houses is a start.”

      Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/labour-plans-to-tackle-homelessness-2014083107#ixzz3C663hGzS

      • crocodill 6.3.1

        Converting “empty state homes” doesn’t end homelessness and promising emergency housing in Canterbury, while obviously necessary, isn’t the reason why those people are not in homes, and being physically displaced by the aftermath of an Earthquake is not the same as a descent into homelessness from within an apparently “normal” society. Labour and National’s policies will help create a certain amount of homelessness though. Wonder why there are so many unrenovated state homes lying empty? Waiting for a new episode of The Block? “Hey David, look what we just found… yeah it comes as a total surprise to us too… they were just… there… no one knew!” Meanwhile David Parker in the other room, “I’m convinced the reason we lost was because we tried to help the underclasses…” LOL maybe I could just end any comment I make with a signature that says F-OFF Labour.

        • paul scott 6.3.1.1

          Earthquake caused a loss of the lower priced rentals in East Christchurch. Christchurch generally has a lesser income than National average .
          When these people looked for replacement homes, they saw the cost increases.
          We have still a multi billion dollar hole in Christchurch. The Government did not want to nationalise the disaster, losing the votes of precious Auckland. The figures are startling. Take 30 billion dollars and divide by 1.5 million taxpayers

      • @ viper..

        “..Labour leader David Cunliffe says renovating vacant state houses is a start.”..”

        oh well..!..that’s poverty/inequality/homelessness solved..eh..?

        david parker…michael joseph savage reincarnated..eh..?

      • millsy 6.3.3

        State houses for emergency housing? Why not state houses for somewhere to live?

  7. Tigger 7

    Key et al keep referring to the left wing blog/gers who are apparently ‘as bad’ as the right/Slater/Farrar/Odgers. The Standard gets named but who else? Are there left wing bloggers of note that are attack blogs, that seek to smash faces into the ground? I’m asking because I figure if they existed they’d be getting named by Key. Surely someone should be asking him: where are examples of these ‘they do it too’ blogs. And if they exist, if they’re as dirty as Slater etc, then should we not ensure they’re outed? I certainly am happy to expose any dirty left blogs.

    So where are they?

    Or are they fiction?

    And if they’re fiction why doesn’t the MSM call Key on his lie?

    • mickysavage 7.1

      I have posed the question here and offered to either make a donation of $100 to Greenpeace or give a chocolate for every post which was comparable to Slaters stuff (personal attack or paid or based on information fed from the Beehive). So far I have had no takers. The offer stands.

      • weka 7.1.1

        Nice one micky 😀 The choc bit is a tempting though.

        Tracey, TDB is other other one, because of Bomber’s connections to various parties.

      • Rich 7.1.2

        There will be left wing bloggers around who will be getting paid for it by large corporates but the propaganda would be more subtle in my view, designed to calm us down and keep us from taking to the streets. Or giving us distractions like oh I don’t know, maybe bilderberger?

        🙂

        • weka 7.1.2.1

          Can you suggest which left wing bloggers might be being paid?

          • Rich 7.1.2.1.1

            I’m basing it purely on the idea that these corporates (and Govts) would not put all their eggs in one basket. So although on one hand you can’t push a Slater agenda from the left, you can possibly push antagonism and provocation from the left (with the aim of getting a reaction). But no I don’t know of any.

            • Tracey 7.1.2.1.1.1

              See, the thing is, the Dirty Politics and whaledumps prove such a link, everything else is speculation.

              Given what is revealed in DP and WD there is almost NO way Slater and others wouldn’t have published and attacked ANY connection between LP , Corporate and TS or TDB or whichever IF THEY HAD proof

      • David H 7.1.3

        There maybe ‘vigarous’ debate on here at times, but I do notice a distinct lack of personal attacks here by the regulars. (Trolls. Well they get the Lprent treatment for this offence)

        Yet the allowing of posting of all messages without the heavy moderation you see on most other boards, allows the conversation to flow. Unlike most other blog sites.

        So really a well done to everyone. And it looks like your hundy is safe Micky. Unless you want to give it to them anyway 🙂

        And into Moderation i go ARRGG lol

      • Jeeves Ponzi 7.1.4

        Please be careful with your wording- you appear to have made a contractual offer to the world- ie your liability is $100 for any post which is ‘comparable’…. which of course is an infinite number.

      • paul scott 7.1.5

        You are pulling the leg Greg. Lynn Prentice is [ or was ] famous for his violent verbal assaults. Karol used to wade in also. It worked , most of us were frightened off. If I knew how to get back to that stuff I would take back $100 from you. For whatever reason the column seems more civilised now, but we used to get abused and then barred. It gave the Standard a terrible name, as you know.

        • karol 7.1.5.1

          It’s not about you, paul. For me the relevant personal attacks on WO are the smear attacks run against politicians, and also maybe some attempts to bully journalists in only running lines the WO team approve of.

        • weka 7.1.5.2

          Paul what time period are you talking about? As I understand it, when ts first started there was a kind of free for all, which I imagine was pretty nasty, and the site got overrun by tr8lls. Then the moderation policy came in, including Lynn’s tr*ll moderation style, but the idea was to let robust debate remain. So yes, people are rude frequently and the site isn’t for people that don’t like swearing. Often the rudeness tips over into meanness but I think there is less of that now than in the past. And occassionally that meanness becomes outright bullying, but that is rare.

          Lynn jumps hard on newbies and some regulars who do stupid things re the house rules, but you have to remember he sees all the back end stuff like the IP addresses and posts that don’t make it through moderation.

          Karol, from my memory, has never made violent verbal assaults.

          “It worked , most of us were frightened off”

          Yes, and it’s one of the down sides of the moderation policy. People who aren’t able to stand, or don’t like the rough and tumble, their voices will be lost.

          So, that’s the tone of the place. It doesn’t suit everyone, that it true. Whether it’s as bad as WO, I don’t know because I don’t spend much time there. But I do know that if someone put up a post about how a man who had just died was a feral waste of space, they would get roundly slammed. Outright racism and sexism is not tolerated.

          btw, I think you are talking about the comments section, and ts admin are not responsible for what gets posted here beyond controlling tr8lling and avoiding litigation and occassional modding for taste (eg the clear out of the political comments yesterday on the Ashburton condolence thread). It’s the community that creates the culture here.

          Beyond that, as others are pointing out, the big difference is that ts is not engaged in dirty politics a la Slater. All our dirt is upfront.

      • paul scott 7.1.6

        It would make some sense if you allowed us to choose the charity.
        Its meaningless as it is. My charity will be the Salvation Army

        • karol 7.1.6.1

          paul, you are claiming a prize you haven’t earned.

        • mickysavage 7.1.6.2

          Fine Paul. Note I said “posts” rather than comments. I agree the comments can get fairly edgy at times although nothing like I have seen at Slater’s blog.

          • Tracey 7.1.6.2.1

            So, mickey, you mean author’s opening articles which people then comment under

            • karol 7.1.6.2.1.1

              Yes. I think some people tend to refer to comments as “posts”. But actually, I think posts are the ones published by authors. Comments under them, I would call…. erm… “comments”.

              Edit: on the back end of TS, which can only be seen by authors/moderators, that is how they are classified. So for those of us that see that, I guess that is how we tend to categorise them.

    • @ tigger..

      ..i’m going with ‘b’..

      and as for ‘c’..

      ..hasn’t it always been this way..?

    • crocodill 7.3

      Is it something to do with the complexities of knowing the difference between the legal liability/responsibility of the admin with regards to what gets posted here, and the layman’s idea that anyone policed by an administration is part of the administration’s general aims/goals and therefore “indistinguishable”, one from the other?

      Coming from a man who says “…we stood behind the most vulnerable…” in election ad’s, anything is possible and also far too complex to understand.

    • ianmac 7.4

      Agreed Tigger. Often think why don’t the interviewers ask Key to give an example of Left-Wing-Are-Just-Bad. Unfortunately Key’s often repeated claim is picked up by members of the public. They say, “Of course the Left do it too.” Excuses. Excuses.

      • @ ianmac..

        ..it is moments like that i am so depressed at the realisation of just how fucken hopeless most of our mainstream media are..

        ..in the main they seem unable to compose even basic follow-up questions..

        ..let alone questions that may in some way challenge the bullshit being spun.

        ..the numerous times that claim/fucken-lie of ‘the left blogs are as bad as the right blogs’ has been made..

        ..to an unquestioning/nodding-along journalist..

        ..is kinda puke-inducing..

      • Tracey 7.4.2

        the standard has been mentioned by collins. Asking them for proof rather than names I think.

  8. Tracey 8

    And the new line is to label Rawshark a forger and a criminal… unfortunately…

    “The purported Collins-Slater conversations alleged to have been faked were sent to the Herald with many other Facebook conversations between the blogger and friends or contacts spanning from 2008 to January this year. Some of those people confirmed to the Herald the content of the conversations was accurate and genuine and that the discussions took place on Facebook.

    Rawshark also provided emails between Ms Collins and Slater on a range of other topics that include embedded source code linking them directly to the blogger.”

    The prominent tax lawyer former deputy President of Law Society and Former Minister of Police and Justice just needs to give up every piece of IT she has to an independant and supervised IT specialist to examine, including deleted stuff and tell us if those things exist on her hardware (lawfirm, home, parliament, phones, husband’s hardware) and so on. That woud back her story wouldn’t it?

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      And the new line is to label Rawshark a forger and a criminal… unfortunately…

      They are trying one of their tried and tested smear strategies. Problem is, they have very little to use, whereas Rawshark seems to have the good juicy stuff to fire back in return. The MSM is also reliably going to where the dirt is, for the moment.

      • Tracey 8.1.1

        she could clear herself in a shot. This is, according to her, about reputation not the law, so, she just needs to offer up all her and her husband’s IT devices for independant examination…

        • yeshe 8.1.1.1

          Collins could lay a complaint with NZ Police and they can legally get access to relevant Facebook records … should prove her innocence simply, beyond any reasonable doubt . Yeah, nah. ( Wish we had an emoticon for a Tui moment.)

          • Tracey 8.1.1.1.1

            BUT that is my point. SHE doesn’t have to complain tot he police or allege criminality, she has the power to clear her good name HERSELF. Pass in ALL her IT devices, her husbands any in her house and her law firm and her offices at parliament. Simple.

            Forgery is far fetched.

            We were told we can’t believe Slater when he implicated Collins but we can miraculously believe him when he said he didn’t facebook with Judas Collins?

        • bad politics 8.1.1.2

          Collins was on Twitter and quoted ‘they are forgeries, until proven otherwise’. I see the comment has since been deleted, but I’m pretty sure I saw it yesterday.

          • yeshe 8.1.1.2.1

            It’s still there, and it is seriously weird … “she presumes them to be forgeries unless proven otherwise ??” FFS ! and it looks like a tweet by way of reply to andrea vance ….

            Judith Collins @JudithCollinsMP · 17h
            @avancenz I have no recall nor any record of any such conversation. So I presume them to be forgeries unless proven otherwise.

    • paul scott 8.2

      So will Lynn Prentice and Greg Presland give me their hard drives ?
      What do you think, I can”t read them , but I send them to a specialist.
      He specialist says says Greg and Lynn have pressed format drive D, of the next door neigbours hard drive , no use.
      Why don’t you people try to win election on policy.

      • weka 8.2.1

        Can you please try and write so we can understand what you mean.

        Then go look at all the press releases in the past month from the left wing parties on policy.

        Then go look at all the posts and comments on policy on ts and other left wing blogs.

      • framu 8.2.2

        what are you on about paul?

        youve jumped from “the left are meanies too” to “lynn prentice and greg presland are covering up for a reported crime”

        dude – its really weird

        and as for that policy moan – go and do some bloody research and stop repeating the lies of john key – theres been plenty of policy release from labour greens and even internet/mana

        how much have the nats released?

        your starting to appear to be a troll – if you dont want to wear that name please stop acting like one

      • Tracey 8.2.3

        False equivalence, collins is the one claiming its all just a two year smear campaign, she has the power to prove her reputation stands.

        National is light on policy. No one more than Labour and Greens want to debate on policy.

        Nice try, but you need new lines

    • Rich 8.3

      I assume that she had someone helping her with the media before, but appearances seem to now be that she is handling that (badly, very badly) herself. I think they might be throwing her to the sharks (no pun intended).

  9. tricledrown 10

    Hey Phil calm down I would not be surprised if this guy had a P habit as Ashburton has a Dark underbelly their has been a large scale bust just recently !
    Gangs are expanding addictive drugs are an easy way for these gangs to maintain their findings!
    The banditos’ and rebels have multiplied their membership in the South Island recently
    their expansion has been rapid!

    • @ tricle..yr talking rubbish…

      ..were he a ‘p’-addict..we wd have heard about it 5 mins after these killings..

      • tricledrown 10.1.1

        Phil I have met Tully I wouldn’t invite him to my house I would even want him to know where I lived!
        I know some of his friends who I am unfortunately related to!

  10. ScottGN 11

    Was anybody else surprised to learn last week that apparently the leader of the National Party has already had a conversation with the Governor General about the possibility of forming a future minority government before the votes have even been cast?

      • ScottGN 11.1.1

        Last week Key was musing on the possibility of forming a Canadian style minority government after the election. He said that he’d spoken to the GG about it and and that Sir Jerry was “ok with it”. I’m no constitutional expert but it does seem surprising that the GG would have this conversation with any of the party leaders in the middle of an election campaign.

        • Tracey 11.1.1.1

          Forward planning I guess. I would hope that Sir Jerry actually said I need to speak with my advisers about what you are proposing and I will get back to you.

        • karol 11.1.1.2

          My undrstanding is that would only be possible if their was a hung parliament.

          And now, with Peters saying NZF bottom line would be a royal commission into the Dirty Politics allegations….. how likely is it there will be a hung parliament?

          • Tracey 11.1.1.2.1

            YUP.

            Only way National will agree to that bottom line is if Key and Collins are gone.

            • David H 11.1.1.2.1.1

              Come to think of it Tracey, only TricKey and Collins have been in any news on any station for the last few days. So are the NATS money men also thinking they take the fall. And English/Joyce are free to run the election campaign pointing to the fact they even dumped the Leader. Then English gets stabbed in the back. Maybe Textor/Crosby are also wondering what it would cost them to get TricKey to take the fall.

        • RedBaronCV 11.1.1.3

          Who cares that Key & the GG are “okay with this.” It’s not what they think that matters it’s what we the voters think. How dare they show such disrespect for voters.

  11. Tracey 12

    Sorry to hear Dunne got the biggest cheer of the night for refusing to read Dirty Politics. None so blind OR did he already know this shit was going on?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10448657/Dunne-won-t-read-muck-raking-Dirty-Politics

    Look forward to Rosie’s perspective on the meeting.

    • Tigger 12.1

      Cheering this is literally cheering for wilful ignorance. The same people probably would burn books.

      But Dunne is deep with lobby groups so of course he won’t read it.

    • RedBaronCV 12.2

      So has Dunne been pressured in any way by the Nact’s over anything? Will he answer a question like that?

    • Rosie 12.3

      Hi Tracey.

      The cheers were at the day time candidates meeting at the Dame Malvina Major retirement village. I think the blue rinse set are rather fond of Dunne………Check the majority of anti Dunne comments on the article and the large number that have been up voted 🙂

      The second meeting of the day was last night, which we attended. There was approximately 100+ people there and clearly there were some Dunne plants in the room going by the clapping at Dunne when no one else was. Last night’s meeting was in Johnsonville, the dark conservative heart of Ohariu. I saw one person under 30 and only two non Pakeha.

      There were 8 candidates on the panel. Ginny Andersen was on fire all night. She is such a good speaker, quick witted, had an answer for everything and connected with the audience. She got a lot of support with cheers and clapping. Tane Woodley from the Greens did well too and was supported from the audience. Only the plants clapped for Brett Hudson the Nat candidate who spoke like he was reading from a script. The nat lines are so homogenised that it appears they are all clones from Planet Key.

      Other candidates were a guy from ACT, who stood for the Libertianz last time, a woman from Democrats for Social Credit (who was feisty and said some interesting things) and a woman who was an independent who wanted complete monetary reform.

      Some good questions from the floor:
      What is each parties position on the TPPA?

      Will you abolish the three strikes law? (to all parties)

      What is each parties view on solving inequality?

      To Dunne; You promote yourself as a family man, do you have any regrets about voting for the Sky City casino bill? (Answer no, it’s not the problem it’s made out to be). The flabbergasted audience member wasn’t allowed to respond.

      To Dunne: Did you leak the Kitteridge report? Answer NO. Now how about that! Isn’t that the first time he’s said NO????

      There was an unpleasant scene in which Dunne verbally attacked my fellow PPO member who was trying to ask a question about the reliability of his commitment and “solemn promise”to his constituents ( as outlined in his april 2014 flyer) to meet with them even they may have different views when he refuses to meet with PPO.

      Dunne spat the dummy and made some baseless accusations about PPO. My colleague wasn’t allowed to respond and was left unable to refute Dunne’s accusations which resulted in the Dunne camp applauding.

      I have drafted a letter of complaint to Dunne about his behaviour, responded to his accusations and said I will be looking forward to his apology for publicly slandering PPO.

      I would like to say the evening fell in favour towards the Left in general, going by the audience repsonses. It seems Ginny thinks so too.

      https://www.facebook.com/virginia.andersen.ohariu

      • Tracey 12.3.1

        Thanks Rosie

        It’s funny about the idea of the left being misfits…

        Mr Key wants to go into Government with ACT, whose last MP resigned in shame following a criminal conviction for deception, a party that can claim 17% of its sitting MPs convicted of crimes of deceit….

        Dunne who stands for nothing but Dunne… ” willing buyer, willing seller

        Perhaps someone needs to remind the media of the character flaws inherent amongst ACT MPs…

    • anker 12.4

      Need a strategy to deal with this. This must be what Nact candidates (including Dunne) have been told to do. Anyone any thoughts?

      • Rosie 12.4.1

        Do you mean the closing down of discussion from the floor anker or something else? We got the feeling that moderator was anxious to stay away from argy bargy, but there is the possibility he was badgered to be excessively controlling.

        (Also of note, The Nat, Hudson was getting into the negative speak. At the close of his opening address he said “stick with strong stable government, don’t give your vote to the misfits” (paraphrased). I did a big sigh from the back of the room).

    • Murray Olsen 12.5

      Dunne made use of the attack blogger known as Pete George. He was heavily involved.

  12. question for david parker:

    you have already stated that labour has no policies to help the childless-poor..

    ..so how would tulleys’ situation have been any different under a labour govt..?

    ..and could you tell us why labour will not support the universal basic income policies of int/mana and the greens..?

    • Te Reo Putake 13.1

      “you have already stated that labour has no policies to help the childless-poor..”

      Yeah, that doesn’t sound at all like you’re making shit up, Phil.

      • phillip ure 13.1.1

        name those policies..!

        • Te Reo Putake 13.1.1.1

          Show me the quote you made up, bullshitter.

          • phillip ure 13.1.1.1.1

            parker/labour have no policies to help the childless-poor..

            ..that is a fact..

            ‘arbeit macht frei’ is all we have heard…

            (and if i am quoting someone..i am a traditionalist..i use speech-marks..)

            and i repeat..

            ..you are calling me a liar..

            ..i am asking you to show me the labour policies to help the childless-poor..

            ..there fucken aren’t any..

            • Te Reo Putake 13.1.1.1.1.1

              You are a liar. Phil. Parker never said what you claimed he did. Are you John Key in disguise?

              • parker has stated he/labour have no plans to raise benefit-rates…

                ..what’s he promising..?

                ..fucken fairy-dust..?

                ..and for the third time..

                ..show me the labour policies that make a liar of me..

                ..and are you an apologist for labour doing nothing for the childless-poor..are you an apologist for this clark-govt redux..?

                .. ‘in disguise’..?

                • Te Reo Putake

                  “parker has stated he/labour have no plans to raise benefit-rates…”

                  More bullshit? Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a citation. The problem you have, Phil, is making shit up doesn’t count as evidence in the adult world. Still waiting for you to post the comment you claimed Parker made, but you can’t because you are lying.

                  • are you just as dumb as a sack of fucken door-knobs..?

                    ..i repeat:..labour have no policies to help the childless-poor..

                    ..show me the labour policies that make me the liar you claim i am..

                    ..do that and i will prostrate myself in abject-apology..

                    ..but you can’t..

                    ..and that is why you are just blowing it out yr arse…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Still lying? How sad. Here’s what you claimed:

                      “question for david parker:

                      you have already stated that labour has no policies to help the childless-poor..”

                      Here’s your proof:

                      er, …

                      nothing.

                      Phil Ure is a liar.

                    • weka

                      Leaving the syntax argument aside, does Labour have any policies for the childless poor? Does the GP for that matter? Am trying to think of some off the top of my head, will probably have to go to the policy pages but I suspect that phil is right about that bit.

                    • don’t just insult..(it makes you look worse than me..eh..?..)

                      ..back it up..!

                      show us the policies that labour have for the childless-poor that prove me a liar..

                      ..and i will apologise..

                      (and then go to a dictionary..and look up ‘paraphrase’..eh..?

                      ..and ‘pedantic’..)

                    • @ weka..

                      ..both grns and int/mana have universal basic income policies..

                      ..and that is one of the main reasons i want them together to have more mp’s than labour…

                      ..’cos if we don’t get that..

                      ..we won’t get much..

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      When you’re perusing that dictionary, try looking up ‘stated’. Clue, it’s nowhere near ‘paraphrase’. Fool Ure?

                    • found those labour policies that make me a liar yet..?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      It’s not Labour policies that make you a liar, Phil. It’s your lies.

                    • i said labour have no policies to help the childless-poor..

                      ..and i paraphrased parkers confirmation of that fact..

                      ..where are the ‘lies’ there..?

                      ..and deny it all you like..

                      ..but this election..the childless-poor are in the same position children in poverty were @ 2011 election..

                      …the unmentionables..the invisible ones..

                      ..and if you are a part of labour..

                      ..why don’t you get off yr arse..

                      ..and do something to put that right..?

                      ..just doing nothing..makes you complicit..

                    • weka

                      “..both grns and int/mana have universal basic income policies..”

                      True, but that’s not specifically looking at the childless poor. I think the GP says it would investigate a UBI. While I fully support this as a step in the right direction, it’s not the same as having an actual UBI policy already (ie something that says how it would work). And some of the UBI policies I’ve seen in the public are not going to be up to scratch.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Stop bullshitting, fool. Parker said nothing of the sort. I notice you still haven’t provided anything to back up your bollocks. Waiting, waiting …

                    • “.. Parker said nothing of the sort..”

                      yr a liar..

                      ..parker most definitely has said labour have no plans to lift benefit rates..

                      ..their focus is on (some of) the children living in poverty..

                      ..but the low benefit rates are one of the main causes of that child-poverty..

                      ..but you already know that..eh..?

                    • @ weka..

                      ..the word ‘universal’ means ‘universal’..

                      ..of course it would help the childless poor..

                      ..(and yes..it wd have to be at a liveable-rate..)

                      ..and i am 90% sure the grns do have a u.b.i..

                      ..but they call it something else..(‘citizens income’?..something like that.)

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      More bullshit, fool? Show us where Parker said anything you claim. Go on, show us the quote. Oh, can’t do it because you’re bullshitting? How very surprising.

                    • stop spinning/denying the reality/fact that labour have no policies to help the childless-poor..

                      ..end of story..

                    • weka

                      “..the word ‘universal’ means ‘universal’..”

                      Ok, so now I know that you haven’t actually read the range of the UBI policies being discussed in public and don’t know what you are talking about. Do you think universal means they’ll put everyone on $40,000 a year?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Ha! Nothing to say, Phil? With a bit of luck you’ll have learned something from your debacle today and keep the bullshit to a minimum in future. We can but hope.

                    • the power-imbalance stills my tongue..

                      ..this conversation is now at an end..

                      ..and readers can make their own call on the merits of each argument..

                      ..on just who is ‘lying’..

                    • tricledrown

                      Philip ure there is very low unemployment in Ashburton drug testing for new employees is stopping many who want to work from even applying!
                      This country needs a massive improvement in rehab centres little to none available !

            • anker 13.1.1.1.1.2

              Umm……….didn’t Labour just release a week or so ago and policy to work with the homeless? Know they did Phill.

              Labour are going to raise the minimum wage…………..that will undoubtedly help the childless and the other poor.

              Free Dr for superannuitants.

              I don’t know for sure that there isn’t anything else coming out for people on sickness, UB etc.

              • @ anker..(apologies for the delay in answering yr question..)

                i heard an interview with parker..(can’t remember where..)..where he said labour had no plans to lift benefit-levels..

                (..i would love to be proved wrong..)

                .and yes..’working with homeless’ all well and good..

                ..but keeping support-levels for those suffering most at rates that guarantee poverty/hardship..

                ..means that ‘working with homeless’ etc ..while worthy in its’ own right..

                ..is attacking a conflagration with a water-pistol..

                ..and nothing will really change..

    • The Al1en 13.2

      I’m not surprised that post was deleted from the condolence topic, it’s totally inappropriate. What were you thinking?

      To turn this tragedy into an excuse to put the boot in to labour is undeniably a low point in your commenting and political observation. Don’t you ever ask yourself, as you continue your tirade and agenda, what dirty politics means to you in a personal sense? We should set the bar high and always do our best to reach it.

      It’s not all about emails and ministers, you know?
      Though spiteful blogger does seem to crop up with alarming regularity.

      • vto 13.2.1

        Who are you al1en to place your norms on what people should post?

        Posting various things (reasons for an event and how it relates our society) does not imply the existence or non-existence of other things (lack of sympathy or creation of excuses for that event).

        Stop imposing your personals on others – it is high judgment and fails because of that.

        • weka 13.2.1.1

          Seems appropriate to me that r0b removed the political posts. It wasn’t just phil’s. I put my more political stuff in Open Mike because karol’s post while political around workers, did seem more like a condolence thread to me. And ts has an unspoken policy about not politicising tragedy.

          • Kiwiri 13.2.1.1.1

            Hi All

            Just for the record here.

            I responded to phillip ure’s comment with regard to a specific matter he raised. I was actually not mindful that the comment, and the response I made, was under that condolence post.

            I am sorry.

            Earlier this morning, I have asked for my comments there to be deleted:

            Condolences: safety at work

            (To Michael who replied to me, I may perhaps take that discussion to Open Mike another time. For now, I will let the matter rest.)

        • The Al1en 13.2.1.2

          If I recall you had a post edited too, so maybe a bit of a solidarity showing through, but my norms have nothing to do with their removal. That was editorial sensibilities raining on your parade. I just agreed with it and put a question of personal responsibility of my own.

          High judgement, personals, fails and whatever aside, remembering I didn’t make a political attack piece in a condolence post, I can at least rule out poor judgement from the equation.

    • tricledrown 13.3

      Phil ure talking pure BS from the only party that shoots itself in the foot every time it goes up in the polls a liability to its self!
      Minor Imploding Party!
      to many ego’s to function properly!
      Policy is nothing without power!
      While your Policy is good!
      Your Leader has no political nous!
      Georgina Byers has summed up KDC out for revenge !
      He was doing just fine until he opened his mouth!
      Matthew Hooton has given up booze !
      Phil its time you gave up the Dope !
      There is a big difference between occasional recreational imbibing!
      substance abuse!
      self medication is Denial
      Denial is failing to move on and fix underlying problems !
      Not being able to love and live with who you really are!

  13. Tracey 14

    Is it ok for Bennett to be talking so much about Tully’s past interactions when this is subject to a police investigation, or does that just apply to Minister’s acting appallingly?

    • crocodill 14.1

      The Minister for Social Devolution is necessarily required to act appallingly.

      • Weepus beard 14.1.1

        One thing is for sure. Everyone else will get blamed before the John Key government accepts any responsibility.

    • yeshe 14.2

      Bennett looked terrified on the news last night; really scared. Maybe she knows chickens come home to roost, and is more than aware of the hatred she has brought about. I actually felt sorry for her in the nakedness of it. Deep down she knows she has responsibility for it, one way or another.

      • phillip ure 14.2.1

        yeah..that blood is on her hands..

        ..her and all the other politicians from the last 30 yrs who have created or not fixed the poverty/misery/despair created by their vile neo-lib/fuck-the-poor! policies..

        ..it’s as fucken simple as that…

        ..let’s call a spade a digging-implement..eh..?

        • tricledrown 14.2.1.1

          Ure leaving National in power is going to do wonders keep dumping on your coalition partners the having a vengeful politicaly naive numpty who doesn’t know when to keep his nose out of politics and his mouth shut!
          His self defeating grandstanding is putting Key back in power!
          Philip ure Party Funder fuckwit Kim dumb C*#t will no doubt will continue to duck things up as only he knows how!
          The Key not knowing grandstand 15th of September will be another F/up!
          Dotcom is now hated by 98% of New Zealanders!
          The chances He will be hated even more !
          Time for The Dumb C to take a back seat and let others with more nous possibly greenwood do all the Talking!
          IMP are damaging the whole left !
          so sadly will never be in a position to put their policy in place!

          • phillip ure 14.2.1.1.1

            @ tricle..

            ..can i presume you have some ‘issues’ with dotcom..?

            • tricledrown 14.2.1.1.1.1

              p u i have issues with you attacking coalition partners and not understanding MMP.
              Kim Dotcom’s dumb vengeance attacks are playing right into John Key’s hands even Georgina Beyer your own candidate has said so!
              Dope is blinkering your thought process!

        • tricledrown 14.2.1.2

          PU this is not the time to be behaving like the left wing equivalent of Slater !
          We need to be above that type of behaviour!

      • Tracey 14.2.2

        Her assistant in the background was choking back tears.

    • weka 14.3

      “Is it ok for Bennett to be talking so much about Tully’s past interactions when this is subject to a police investigation, or does that just apply to Minister’s acting appallingly?”

      I haven’t seen the news today yet, so haven’t seen what she is doing, but let’s not forget that Bennett considers herself above the law and spat in the face of the Privacy Comissioners telling off.

      • karol 14.3.1

        It was all about how Tully had (allegedly) refused accommodation offered and was fixated on being allocated one specific house – one too big for one person.

        • weka 14.3.1.1

          Yeah, I’m seeing a lot of narrative of how it was Tully’s own fault he was homeless.

          • Tracey 14.3.1.1.1

            And even if it were she is using it to ensure no criticism of her dept and therefore her. It’s just through this whole DP sage we keep hearing Ministers hide behind things being under police investigation so they cant comment…

    • David H 14.4

      Yet another ‘Rules what Rules? moment.

      • aerobubble 14.4.1

        John Key’s government has created an unsafe workplace, for public service workers and their clients.

  14. fambo 15

    I see Georgina Beyer appears to be attacking Kim Dotcom. I think the Internet Mana Party might have been a bit hasty in having her as a candidate. Georgina has a reputation for being a bit fickle which they probably weren’t aware of. I will always remember how she pulled out of a play just days before it was about to start. Its her tendency to let people down that I’ve felt was her weakness.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10448666/Beyer-takes-Harawira-to-task-over-Dotcom

    • Lanthanide 15.2

      I think calling her fickle is a bit off the mark. ‘flake’ seems more appropriate.

    • weka 15.3

      Is she a reasonably recent candidate selection? ie she came in after all the IMP stuff?

      • Lanthanide 15.3.1

        Yes, she just joined IMP in July.

        • Kiwiri 15.3.1.1

          My own reading (I have no info, nor any communication or rumours about this from anyone) of the scenario giving rise to the outburst, reading between the lines, is that she doesn’t feel she has sufficient funds to run her campaign in Te Tai Tonga. And while MANA/IMP’s approach for TTT, as I understand it, is to campaign for the party vote, Beyer herself is putting in effort and resources into campaigning for the electorate vote.

          • marty mars 15.3.1.1.1

            Poor effort from beyer imo. I have been prepared to forgive her over her Foreshore and Seabed labour support but this outburst has made me think I’ll give my electorate vote to someone else. No one comes into the candidate role without their baggage but when selected they represent the kaupapa of the Party they represent. I hope beyer hasn’t been too tainted by her labour association but that may be a forlorn hope.

        • Tracey 15.3.1.2

          THATs the bit that confuses me. She KNEW who was behind IP when she offered herself to Mana…

    • Draco T Bastard 15.4

      Beyer is a member and candidate of Mana and I hope that she’s probably going to get pulled up for that type of going running to the MSM rather than discussing it with the leadership first.

      Their agreement expires six weeks after the election.

      And there’s the MSM getting things wrong – again. The the agreement can be brought up for discussion 6 weeks after the election.

      • aerobubble 15.4.1

        I disagree. Remember the relationship breaks after election day. Internet and Mana PART ways. Now add into this that Mana is a Maori seat party, the more seats they get the LESS the Internet party gets. Beyer is also one of the most experienced Mana candidates. So you have to ask the question who benefits from reminding Mana voters that voting for more Mana candidates hurts the Internet party and could very mean Harre misses the Waka as she relies on a list placement. And when in the history of Maori seats has a Maori party got list members, they after all have lower constituent numbers.

        So Beyer act to distance herself and Mana from Internet actually works in favor of Mana not against it. And even Dotcom could win in the sense he will have no power to influence in a future parliament but have a huge debt owing from Mana.

        So no, its politics. A Vote for Mana in the Maori seats is a vote against Internet. A vote on the list is a vote for the internet party and if takes off then sure thats a different story. i.e. Mana wants Maori seat votes, Internet wants Mana list votes.

    • Murray Olsen 15.5

      Beyer doing this made me lean towards Green for my party vote, then today Metiria posted some stuff in praise of Marina Silva, candidate for Brazilian president. Marina is not at all Green, even though she was once a member of Partido Verde. Deforestation of the Amazon proceeded even more rapidly when she was Environment Minister. She is the right wing’s candidate after too many people found out how much their last candidate was involved with cocaine and using state money to build airports for his family. She is homophobic, evangelical, and a neoliberal in economics. In foreign policy, she follows the US and A.

      I hope the Greens here take a closer look and realise she’s nothing to celebrate.

  15. Bearded Git 16

    I was appalled at the interview with John Key on Checkpoint last night.

    This brilliant post by The Political Scientist links to this interview (and others) and contains a devastating critique on Key’s behaviour since Dirty Politics was published. A must read.

    http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/we-no-longer-have-a-prime-minister/

  16. millsy 17

    I dont blame Tully for lashing out like did. All the guy wanted was a roof over his head and no one was able or willing to help the guy. People can bleat all they like about how he didnt want help, or they did all they could for him, but if they did, then 2 people would still be alive.

    Hopefully this tragedy will move the housing debate away from middle-class 20-somethings looking for a house with a white fence to buy to actually doing more for the Tully’s of this world.

    • vto 17.1

      We are judged by how we look after our weak.

      Our failure is complete and, thanks to people like those who support Key government policies, worsening.

    • BM 17.2

      Tully was a delusional self centered fuckwit.

      He was offered help but refused it because it wasn’t what he was after.

      Christ, spends his career working in the mines, yet has no money and expect the NZ tax payer to pick up the tab and provide him with exactly what he wants.

      • crocodill 17.2.1

        Knew him personally, yeah? Birds of a feather..? Glad to hear you’ll be voting Left though, because you aren’t one to refuse something you don’t want.

        • aerobubble 17.2.1.1

          Its before the courts.

          The issue for the left should be work place safety and the need for guards at WINZ. Unlike banks there’s no money there, so why the need for security guards?

          Two people are dead, in a workplace run by WINZ. If they were forestry workers!

          Bennett needs to be held to account how two of her staff are now dead.

      • millsy 17.2.2

        So you think it was OK for him to live on the street?

        You had a nice warm bed to sleep in, he didnt. The guy was ill.

        Its people like you that are ruining this country.

        Tully should be held up as a hero.

        • BM 17.2.2.1

          Jesus, you’re a fucking tool bag Millsy.

          Some wanker does his rag and kills two innocent people because he doesn’t get exactly what he wants and you call him a hero?

          What the fuck is wrong with you?

          • vto 17.2.2.1.1

            And there we have it folks….

            the complete outline of the sentiment and persona that causes and continues the Tullys of this country.

            People like BM HATE people like Tully.
            People like BM are sheltered and ignorant.
            People like BM are dangerous to the health of our society.

            We are judged by how we look after our weak. BM is at the centre of our failure.

            Shame on you BM.

            • TheContrarian 17.2.2.1.1.1

              No, shame on Millsy.

              • vto

                Shame perhaps on Millsy for that call, subject to further thoughts below..

                But absolute shame on BM for his sentiments and persona and support of policies that have caused such distress in our society. They have no idea of decent society and their place in it – we are all individuals and every manwoman for themselves eh, yep …..

                Disgusting.

                • TheContrarian

                  Calling a cold blooded murderer “a hero” you think is somehow comparable to to what BM said?

                  See how far that gets you in ashburton at the moment you fucking cretin

                  • weka

                    “Calling a cold blooded murderer “a hero” you think is somehow comparable to to what BM said?”

                    Pretty close. BM’s original comment is pretty reprehensible.

                    • BM

                      Why?
                      Sounds like the guy spent the majority of his working life working in the Australian mines.
                      Came back here because he was got sick and excepted the NZ tax payer to shell out for all his wants and needs after probably not contributing a bean.

                      If the guy had a shred of self respect he should have been grateful for any help offered, instead of turning down help because it wasn’t what he wanted.

                      A complete wanker with an unbelievable entitlement mentality.

                    • weka

                      You don’t know the guy. From what is in the public domain, you have absolutely not basis for your opinions which leaves your own ideology and ignorance (can’t imagine why some who has earned money in the past has none now?). So, you make up a whole bunch of maligning, politicised shit about someone to suit your own agenda. Pretty much every sentences you have uttered is full of your personal problems expressed as dogma.

                      In this situation, that’s reprehensible and not too different than calling Tully a hero.

                    • Tracey

                      Best description of key and his cabinet yet, thanks BM

                      ” A complete wanker with an unbelievable entitlement mentality. “

                    • weka

                      ha ha, good one Tracey.

                  • vto

                    What is ugly in this country non-contrarian is the attitude displayed by those who vilify the poor and downtrodden. That attitude is fostered and encouraged by this government and its supporters.

                    What the fuck do you expect fool?

                    That you can shit on people and expect no reaction? That the shittees should just keep taking it? What do you expect? What?

                    BM expects gratitude for being shat on. Ffs, the gulf in this country is so massive when true attitudes come out.

                    But you will not doubt continue to hide the truth under the tarp of grief.

                    edit: btw, have you ever heard the things National party people have to say about people like Tully? Have you? Do you know how many people in Ashburton vote National?

                  • vto

                    and just to make it clear for you – I am in no way justifying the actions. It is about looking at the reasons ….

                    • weka

                      “and just to make it clear for you – I am in no way justifying the actions.”

                      It would probably be a good idea to make that statement at the start.

              • Rich

                Shame on both of them.

          • Tracey 17.2.2.1.2

            I agree he is no hero but your assessment is also ridiculous, as is your knowledge of mining wages.

            People who could fit description of delusional self centred fuckwit include:

            Cameron Slater
            Judith Collins
            John Key
            Stephen Joyce
            Matthew Hooton
            David Farrar
            Jason Ede
            Carrick Graham
            Mark Hotchin

            I wondered what their combined wealth is and yet, still “delusional self centred fuckwit”s one and all

        • Peter Matthews 17.2.2.2

          “Tully should be held up as a hero”. Really? Gold medal for the most disgusting comment of the day.

        • TheContrarian 17.2.2.3

          “Tully should be held up as a hero.”

          You awful fuck.

        • joe90 17.2.2.4

          Tully should be held up as a hero.

          My partner who has an occasional front of office role was threatened recently.

          Happy?.

          • weka 17.2.2.4.1

            I don’t think Tully is a hero, and I think it’s entirely inappropriate to say he is the day after he shot 3 people.

            Let’s also not forget the huge amount of suffering that beneficiaries go through every day, all year, year after year, and that a large part of that is due to WINZ. I think one of the issues here is that empathy for the women who were shot, and their families and friends, is natural and socially sanctioned. Putting Tully’s actions in context isn’t for many, and it’s hard to find ways to do that that aren’t offensive.

            I asked yesterday, the suffering of a whole class of people is worth how many lives? This doesn’t excuse Tully, or make what he did right (what he did was very very wrong).

        • vto 17.2.2.5

          “Tully should be held up as a hero”

          Somehow missed that millsy … that is as far from reality as the likes of BM’s hatred of people like Tully.

          … though I guess it depends on which side of the war one is on…

          … there has been a framing of “the war on the poor” of late … in which circumstances some will see this as somehow justifiable. After all, how many have died or taken their lives due to the policies shat onto various parts of the disenfranchised in our lands over the last 30 years?

          Is it a form of war? Some have framed it as such. Looking at the various acts and results then it certainly could be seen as such. Mine first post earlier suggested Tully’s act was a form of civil war. This should not be underestimated imo. When will it spill from acts against government to acts against private people?

          • TheContrarian 17.2.2.5.1

            In fact VTO – one of my colleagues, an awfully nice woman, discovered it was her Auntie who was killed in the shooting so fuck you and fuck Millsy

            • vto 17.2.2.5.1.1

              Yes well that is very sad and I am sorry to hear that.

              However you have clearly missed the point due to the intensely personal nature of your position. So, on behalf of all the people the right wing governments of this country that have fucked over the last 30 years, fuck you too.

              We reap what we sow.

              • TheContrarian

                Actually I found this out after I had already decided and commented on Millsy and your positions so fuck you and your ” intensely personal nature” BS

                “We reap what we sow.”
                Yeah because it was the fault of those people on the front-line who were shot and killed. They totally reaped what they sow. Fucking numbskull

        • Enough is Enough 17.2.2.6

          Go Fuck yourself Millsy.

          He is the lowest scum in this country. He murdered defenceless mother, friend, wife, colleague, neighbour and absolutely innocent wonderful women.

          You sir make the pain being felt across this country s much worse by describing this worthless piece of shit as a hero.

          You fuckwit

        • One Anonymous Bloke 17.2.2.7

          Tully should be held up as a hero.

          I understand this ghoulish sentiment, and it’s nonsense as well as callous and inhuman.

          Tully wasn’t defending anyone, he faced no immediate threat. Weave all those legitimate grievances into a cloak: Tully won’t be strong enough to wear it.

          Meanwhile, Millsy’s verbal incontinence feeds anti-beneficiary prejudice. What a champ.

        • tricledrown 17.2.2.8

          Millsy you are going way overboard their I am pretty sure this guy was into serious drugs Ashburton is the P capital of the South Island a recent major bust their only skimmed the surface!
          Wealthy farm workers who work long hours want P and other drugs to stay awake in their short time off their long working week their are many other low paid workers working long hours in boring repetitive jobs.
          They take P so they can party late into the nights!
          This generation has changed from the previous heavy drinking small town culture!
          The Mayor is completely wrong about his nice we community he must know their is a nasty dark side to Ashburton.
          It has one of the highest suicide rates in the country as well.
          The Drinking Culture is just as bad as the drug culture!
          Synthetic Cannabis real Cannabis Ashburton is a boring small country town with not many things to do!
          Then their are the haves and have nots the have nots as far as the haves go do not exist!
          Housing since the Canterbury quakes has become very expensive!
          And the only reasonable priced rentals are slums run by slum landlords!

    • ianmac 17.3

      Mayor MacKay talked about his two contacts with Mr Tully. He said he was relaxed and understood the offers that the office had made to him. Not all bad.

      • phillip ure 17.3.1

        the mayor was just covering his arse..

        ..’cos when asked for help..

        ..like everyone else..

        ..he did nothing/turned his back..

        • aerobubble 17.3.1.1

          The alleged murder gave it a go in Aussie, and lost. Then he returned. Now allegedly he could have found a place in Auckland but he didn’t, he ended up near his father grave in Ashburton. Some might say he was giving it a go by avoiding the major welfare support of Auckland, others may aledge he went home and his community turned their back on him. This is all for the courts now and should not be discussed further.

          The workplace safety issue however, like forestry and mines, is the issue. Why are two front line workers now dead.

          Loosening standards has been a hallmark of John Key’s government.

  17. A VOTER 19

    Listening to Dave Parker on the 9 till noon this morning making it clear about the corruption in this Key govt
    We as NZers should be really worried about what has been running our country for the last 6 yrs
    The problem is clear you allow your country to be run by people who will do anything to take away the democratic rights of the majority and run a right wing biased system bordering on fascism in some cases you got trouble
    We need a big reality check on how the legality of our govt is being operated
    ie: why a retired judge and not a Royal commission to run the enquiry notified by Key recently on the news ?
    Once again the power of our democracy is being subverted

  18. Jono 20

    Not that its a big deal in the greater scheme of things, but the Department of Conservation is about to go on strike. They have started taking industrial action this week, working to role, no overtime (well, no one gets over time, but no accrual of time off in lieu) and next week they will stop work and protest in public.

    They have been offered a 1% pay rise for two years, after no pay rises for the last several. When I worked for DOC ten years ago the average DOC salary was 2/3rds the Public Service average, and I knew one full-time, permanent staff person in my office who was getting a WINZ accomodation allowance because his salary was so low. DOC has always been able to screw down its workers because they are not ‘essential’ and the organisation is full of passionate people who are committed to the work of the department.

    For those same reasons DOC staff have never struck for better pay and conditions, but that is about to change. The sorts of perks that DOC staff used to get to make up for the poor pay have been rolled back, and DOC staff are barely in the field anymore as all that side of the job is supposed to be done by “The Community”, or contractors who take care of the tracks and campgrounds.

    Last year’s restructuring has ripped the guts out of the organisation and there is no good will left. My partner, who is still in the department, isnt even sure that Head Office know this is happening, they are so divorced from the wider organisation now. Al Morrison screwed the department over and then bailed to the SSC instead of actually implementing and dealing with the fallout from the restructure. Everyone likes the new Director General Lew Sanson but the staff have had enough.

  19. Weepus beard 21

    Millsy’s comment is crass and not helpful. Tully in no way can be regarded as a hero but the incident itself should be seen as a violent watershed moment in our social journey.

    The defenders of the current ideology will seek to minimise the wider implications and they will seek to make this an isolated incident which could not be avoided.

    However, it should be an opportunity to focus on the way we’d like our services to operate for the betterment and safety of society.

    Paula Bennett’s suggestion of bullet proof glass is not a road we should be going down.

    • weka 21.1

      She said that?! Fuck, I’m really going to have to avoid anything she says or does today.

      Your comment is very wise Wb. I think normally the ‘don’t politicise this’ thing applies to tragedies, but it seems so important that this doesn’t get framed as a one off nutter, and that we get to talk about the whole thing. How to do that is the question.

      “However, it should be an opportunity to focus on the way we’d like our services to operate for the betterment and safety of society.”

      Can you see how to have that conversation at this stage?

      • Weepus beard 21.1.1

        No, not with the current lot in charge with their fixation on trimming social services and their fixation on budget surpluses, and their devolution of responsibility to local communities while at the same time stripping local communities’ cohesiveness by encouraging new breeds of atavistic amateur landlords and ignoring the protections for the new breed of lifetime tenants.

    • Draco T Bastard 21.2

      The defenders of the current ideology will seek to minimise the wider implications and they will seek to make this an isolated incident which could not be avoided.

      Of course they will – they won’t accept that it was their policies that caused the violence. Basically, they won’t accept responsibility for their actions.

      However, it should be an opportunity to focus on the way we’d like our services to operate for the betterment and safety of society.

      We need to get rid of the psychopathic, punish the poor policies that have been implemented over the last 20+ years. We need to ensure that all people are well cared for and not just the rich.

      • vto 21.2.1

        “Of course they will – they won’t accept that it was their policies that caused the violence. Basically, they won’t accept responsibility for their actions.”

        This can already be seen draco, in various comments where, when suggesting causes and reasons for these types of actions, the scream comes back “you fuckwit, condoning such murder!!”…. which is completely removed from what was suggested.

        So you better look out as someone will be along shortly to scream this at you.

        ….. fucking dangerous idiots, sticking their heads in the sand

        my vote has just gone harder left, which will be a first

      • crocodill 21.2.2

        “they won’t accept responsibility for their actions.”

        Or their influence. They are vacuum heads – none of the slightest ripples of anything they did ever had anything at all to do with something “bad” happening, unless they “benefitted”, then it did. Which is strange, since most of our reasoning follows an actions = consequences = blame = reactions = consequences = blame = actions… cycle, even if it is distorted, illogical and flawed.

        • Tracey 21.2.2.1

          Yup. They accept their influence when wanting to take credit for a reduction in crime or dpb recipients cos of their policies…

  20. Weepus beard 22

    @ weka 21.1.1.1

    I think there’s be a better chance of having a wide reaching conversation on community and social structure and an in depth look at the rapid social changes occurring in this country under a Labour/Green government, yes.

    Right now we have Paula Bennett who is Minister for Social Development and for Local Government, both of these areas smack bang in the middle of this tragic event.

    We know Paula Bennett has not been backward in coming forward with wide reaching and ideological changes to social policy after limited consultation.

  21. Hami Shearlie 23

    I don’t think that WINZ giving bonuses to staff who get people off benefits helps, it’s just fostering personal greed – Apparently they get a big bonus for every person they get into a job and who stays off welfare for a year (doesn’t seem to matter that they are not jobs which pay enough to live) – Some people who work there seem to regard giving legal entitlements to beneficiaries as taking money from their own pockets! I hope that some good can come from this tragedy, and looking into the culture that National have created in WINZ would be a good start. My deepest condolences to the grieving families of the victims!

    • weka 23.1

      There’s been rumours of bonus systems at WINZ for decades now. I’ve never seen any evidence for that unfortunately.

      • adam 23.1.1

        They don’t need bonuses, the majority of winz workers, work in a climate of fear. Now that will be amplified. So simple things, like: Security behind the main desk, open plan workplace, outdated software, unattainable dead lines, massive paperwork loads, weekly reviews, and if you help people to much – you get put on paper work. Which is data entry. They also have people who watch the managers, or if this was the old soviet union – I’d call them political officers. These people also watch the rest of the office.

        No Hami Sherlie, it’s worse – the people who hold the stick are being beaten with the same stick.

        • weka 23.1.1.1

          “They also have people who watch the managers, or if this was the old soviet union – I’d call them political officers. These people also watch the rest of the office.”

          Watch in what way?

          The rumours about bonuses I heard back in the day were for the upper managers who got the stats down for their office.

          • adam 23.1.1.1.1

            What managers approve, and what is spent each day. Who is approved, and what for. As many things above the standard benefit must go through the manager – clothing grans, dentist etc… I have not seen any of these reports, but I’ve been told, they also have analysis of why the managers approved things and their spending habits. Also these reports to area managers. It is a system gone nut’s Weka, it is a system gone nuts.

            • weka 23.1.1.1.1.1

              Are you saying this is beyond the usual management oversight where a senior manage looks at decisions being made etc. eg there is a new position, of someone who watches all this stuff? And it’s each decision rather than looking at a sampling or trend?

            • AsleepWhileWalking 23.1.1.1.1.2

              Your description matches what I’ve been told – that Case Managers have multiple people watching over their shoulder at all times + failure to toe the line results in *punishment* and removal from the front line so they can’t be quite so helpful.

              You didn’t mention that CM’s get “advice” from Regional Health Advisors /Regional Disability Advisors, and the CM is supposed to make the decision (this is with regards to putting people on Sickness or Invalids Benefit, and some applications for a disability cost). I use the old names because everyone knows what they are…. Most people don’t understand that just because a doctor signs a form Work and Income have no obligation to follow the doctors recommendation. If you happen to be disabled they can in affect use your disability against you by ignoring medical opinion and listening to their own advisor who may not even have a medical qualification.

              However, if the CM goes against the “advice” it is a black mark against them. Consequently staff are afraid to go against them which results in disabled people being financially penalised. Frankly given this type of treatment of disabled I’m surprised there hasn’t been more than one shooting because the “advise” can be given without ever seeing the client or their files driving disabled into either severe poverty or the alternative which is deterioration/exacerbation of a recognised medical condition.

              What’s the bet the RHAs/RDA’s are under pressure to decline applications? I’d say it’s a given.

            • Tracey 23.1.1.1.1.3

              They will have templates. Do an OIA and request the templates for the reports you believe exist. Templates have no personal details, so no privacy issue around releasing them. You can also ask for internal practice notes, guides or checklists.

              • weka

                Thanks Tracey, great idea. OIAs mean using real life names, which is not safe for some beneficiaries. What we need is properly funded advocacy and lobby groups. This is an area that is very neglected.

      • Hami Shearlie 23.1.2

        I heard a man on the radio last night with close relatives who work at WINZ and he confirmed the bonus system. Maybe it’s true, maybe not – But I think there was some talk of it when Rankin was the boss.

  22. peters has said a royal commission into the allegations/evidence in ‘dirty politics’ is his bottom-line for any post-election deal..

  23. the victims are ‘Susan Cleveland and Peggy Noble’..

  24. blue leopard 26

    This is a must read:

    http://thejackalman.blogspot.co.nz/2014/09/matthew-hootons-dirty-tactics.html

    (Especially for those who believe Matthew Hooton has turned over a new leaf)

    • David H 26.1

      Matthew has been spinning so much in the last few days he could be used as the Rotor in a Gyroscope

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

      • blue leopard 26.1.1

        I agree, and it is with concern that I see certain sentiments being expressed indicating very little resistance to believing the spin, which is why I like The Jackal’s article so very much. It is a goodie!

    • Bill 26.2

      I reckon Hooton is merely suffering from what I call the “Uncle Joe Complex”

      The glorious leader can’t be wrong. If only somebody would alert him to what’s going on and to those who act against him. It’s unthinkable to suggest Key is tainted.

      And so logic bends into strange and inconsistent shapes as attempts are made to preserve the illusion of the benevolent leader.

      • adam 26.2.1

        I hadn’t thought of that Bill, but it makes more sense than him turning a new leaf.

      • blue leopard 26.2.2

        I disagree. What you put forward, Bill, is what Hooton is trying to put across.

        Do you really think that Hooton doesn’t believe Key plays dirty? After all the ‘the left are as bad’ responses these people provided, ad nauseum, as their first response?

        That Key has been playing dirty is why these guys like him. “It is just the nature of politics, after all”. “Key is talented politically – he is good at the game.”

        They are not getting flummoxed and pee’d off over whether Key was involved with it or not, what is distressing them is the possibility of Key getting caught out connected with the dirty business.

        • Bill 26.2.2.1

          Well yes, my comment is, if you like ‘channeling’, what I imagine Mathews’ thoughts/feelings to be. In that regard it’s not me putting anything across with regards Key.

          Hooton on RadioLive was just too obviously reminiscent of those idiot authoritarians of the left who denied there was famine in 1930’s Russia; who denied there were gulags and cleansings etc in the USSR and who, even today, parrot official propaganda back at anyone who mentions the failed Kronstadt uprising as the defining moment when the final nail was driven deep into the heart of the Russian revolution.

          Uncle Joe (and Lenin before him) were the paradigm of upstanding, altruistic and benevolent people to the true believer.

          “Burnt by the Sun” – a film by Nikita Mikhalkov, explores the phenomenon of unshakable loyalty in Stalin’s Russia rather well. Give it a watch if you ever get the chance.

          • Colonial Viper 26.2.2.1.1

            In my view, Hooton honestly doesn’t believe that Key is going to stick around. One way or another. He’s all about the post Key positioning.

  25. Puckish Rogue 27

    Tully should be held up as a hero.

    – and this is why The Standard is as bad, if not worse then Whaleoil, disgusting comments like this hidden under the guise of good people reacting to the evil government

    No different to the arguement that she was asking for it, both arguements are wrong and people should be ashamed to use them

    • joe90 27.1

      So you’ll be linking to his regulars condemning fellow commenters.

    • karol 27.2

      Show me all the comments you are referring to.

      Then explain how that is in any way equivalent to the orchestrated smear campaign involving WO authors, Ede, Lusk, corporate interest, etc, and feeding smears to the MSM, attempted blackmail/coercion of MSM journalists into reporting only lines that the WO smear team approve of, etc, etc.

      • Puckish Rogue 27.2.1

        You lot (not all of course but a majority) on the left villify the present government, call them evil, say how damaging they are, say how the people will raise up and then say how bad it is that someone goes out and does something truly horrifying

        This government has been in for two terms and surely isn’t nearly as bad as previous governements (both Labour and National) in terms of dealing with the poor yet you on left have helped create this situation and theres still many on here blaming the governement for the actions of one nutter

        Take a look in the mirror and see how you lot have helped create this situation

        • crocodill 27.2.1.1

          I’m sorry you have reading comprehension issues. Every day on this site, someone, if not me, is saying just that: Labour, National the stinking lot have consistently screwed the people of NZ.

          • Puckish Rogue 27.2.1.1.1

            Thats why I added the not all bit because there are some on here that arn’t completely off the wall

            • framu 27.2.1.1.1.1

              so you used semantics to create wriggle room for a bullshit accusation that you cant back up or follow through on?

              no ones really that surprised your doing this

        • weka 27.2.1.2

          Can anyone make any actual sense of that?

        • karol 27.2.1.3

          Holding a government to account, is in no way comparable to the black ops run by and through WO.

          Advocating for a more caring approach to the treatment of beneficiaries by the well off and powerful, is not what has created a toxic environment for beneficiaries.

          It’s the beneficiary bashers (from whatever party) supported by the dominant lines run in the MSM, that have created a very toxic culture and environment in which the least well off currently struggle to live.

          It’s about who has had the power to forward their agenda in a ruthless and uncaring way.

        • adam 27.2.1.4

          PR you’re a prig. Your an ideological vacuum waiting to be flushed. You don’t read what people say without your rose tinted glasses, you troll and you utter calumny – like your breathing. You comitatus ways are degenerative, and you live is a world of cupidity. I’m quite sick of your fatuous remarks.

        • framu 27.2.1.5

          yeah you just shifted the goal posts BIG TIME

          werent you starting waaaaaay over at one commentor calling tully a hero while avoiding the pretty swift rebuttals? – why if you go down thread a bit someone managed to calm the whole situation down again

          explain how you got from that as a specific accusation of being as bad as WO all the way over to “people being totes mean to my boyfriend”

        • Tracey 27.2.1.6

          Have YOU looked in the mirror, or held it up for BM and others?

    • seeing as you lurk over there..pr..

      ..what are slaters bottom-dwellers saying about all this..?

      ..should we start a drinking game for each time the word ‘feral’ has been used..?

      .and like most here..i don’t see tully as a ‘hero’..

      ..i see him as also being a victim..

      ..but gunning people down is no mark of a ‘hero’..

    • McFlock 27.4

      well, the comment is about as shitty as slater would writecut&paste, but it was met with criticism rather than agreement.

  26. karol 28

    New Green Party policy on fairness for workers.

    The key policy points in the Green Party’s plan to make life better for all New Zealand workers are:

    Lifting low wages by moving the minimum wage to $18 an hour by 2017 and introducing a Living Wage for the core Government sector.

    A new legislative minimum redundancy package of four weeks’ pay.
    Bringing top pay back into line requiring companies to report on the gap between top and bottom pay.

    Measures to boost bargaining power and make workplaces safer more democratic.

    My twitter feed shows this is getting support from the CTU & SFWU.

  27. Ben Adam 29

    Georgina Beyer’s damaging rogue behaviour:

    I am just wondering if her damaging treacherous stance now against Kim Dot Com and Internet-Mana is as a result of some other very dirty tricks engineered by some very wealthy National/Right wing interests?

    • joe90 29.1

      An interesting interest.
      /

    • karol 29.2

      Do you have any evidence for that suspicion? Several people above have given credible explanations for Beyer’s behaviour given her past record.

      • marty mars 29.2.1

        Members of Mana are entitled to their different and differing opinions. Beyer is saying what some think but not what everyone thinks. That is a sign of a maturing political force in the midst of the most extraordinary election in living memory. Why she said what she said is less important than why she said it now – it shows a political naivety that is as saddening as it is frustrating.

        • karol 29.2.1.1

          Good points marty.

          My comment above was made out of concern that smearing people we don’t agree with, with no supporting evidence for the smear, is just not helpful.

        • weka 29.2.1.2

          Do you think she is politically naive? That would be surprising given her experience wouldn’t it?

          • marty mars 29.2.1.2.1

            Well at the IMP roadshow she described going back to WINZ to get a benefit when the last time she had been in there was as a MP with the PM and I thought – what did you expect? did you not know the reality of trying to get support and help? And when I considered the whole story that she told it seemed naive to me. Her experience within labour during the Foreshore and Seabed debacle seemed the same. The only other explanation I can come up with for her comments now is that maybe she shes herself as some sort of natural successor and is trying to build support from those who might agree with her (and there are still a few of them), or it could be that she is believing the hype that people say to candidates – you know, about how good they are, how exceptional – she can speak with passion (it really blew me away seeing her speak – the air crackled with the energy) and she was one of the best speakers for me at IMP roadshow. But she has made an error going down the track she has gone down and if she wants a political career she is going to have to mend some bridges bloody quickly because dissing Hone is a terrible mistake.

            • weka 29.2.1.2.1.1

              That makes sense re the naivity.

              I’m wondering if she is just not a team player, and thinks her job is to do what she thinks is best. Can’t remember much about what she was like with Labour.

              • Tracey

                She beat paul henry

                • From MANA

                  “There is now, and always will be, a range of views about many issues within our movement and members are free to express them, but Georgina’s views on Kim Dotcom are not shared by the MANA Movement leadership or the vast majority of MANA members and supporters around the country” states MANA Candidate for Waiariki, Annette Sykes. “Georgina is the MANA Candidate for Te Tai Tonga and not an Internet MANA party list candidate. She only recently came on board MANA and therefore she has not been privy to some of the discussions that the MANA Movement has had with Kim or the Internet Party.”

                  “Our relationship is ever-evolving as we continue to mature as the newest political force in the country. Sometimes as the relationship develops, people can be misunderstood or form opinions of others that are not accurate”.

                  “The MANA Movement is just that – a movement with a focus on grassroots and for improving the lot for those less fortunate in life. We will continue to work with the Internet Party for the benefit of the people we represent and as we continue to climb in the polls”.

                  http://mana.net.nz/2014/09/mana-movement-leadership-stands-strong-behind-internet-mana-relationship/

                  Yes climbing in the polls and MP’s coming in – yay!!!

                  • weka

                    Bradbury on Waiariki, and polling in the Māori electorates,

                    These landline polls in Maori electorates are more corrupt than in the general seats because the intense poverty in Maoridom means having a landline puts you in the upper classes. Remember the last landline poll for Hone’s by-election? Maori TV claimed then that he only had a 1% lead over Kelvin Davis, what ended up happening? Hone beat Kelvin by 9%.

                    The 2013 census reports that over 30% of people in Waiariki do not have access to a landline alongside the fact this poll was taken in bloody July – well before the Dirty Politics revelations means it’s a worthless poll. MANAs own internal polling using cellphones as well as landlines paints a completely different picture.

                    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/02/mana-hit-speed-wobbles-why-annette-sykes-will-win-waiariki/

                  • Murray Olsen

                    Annette should not have had to do any explaining. They need to get rid of Beyer, because she’ll do it again.

  28. Kiwiri 30

    To millsy if you are reading this:

    I always have time for your comments and stop to read them.

    From my observation, one of your comments this morning was typed in quick rapid fire in reply to someone else’s. While I do not wish to enter into the discussion about the substance of that discussion, I feel you should comment as soon as possible again in relation to that, and perhaps, before doing so, reflect and consider an appropriate course of action that would take things forward constructively.

    While such a course of action would be yours to decide, I would advise (and please excuse or forgive me for volunteering this unsolicited advice) – were it to be me in your shoes – a retraction/withdrawal or deletion.

    The time now that many would prefer to devote would be to have the space to grieve or comfort, and it might be that there might be an opportunity in the near future to debate the relevant issues.

    Looking forward to reading more from you further down the track about a range of matters.

  29. Pete 31

    I’m a little surprised that there hasn’t been a reminder thrown up on here about this evening’s Press Leaders’ Debate between David Cunliffe and John Key. 7 p.m.

  30. crocodill 32

    Jesus, the authoritarian hive mind at work. Leave Millsy to write what he/she wants. No one is forced to agree. No one here, as an individual or as a majority, is the totality or responsible for the voice of “The Left” or anything else. None of us are The Standard and the mindless comparisons to Whale Oil are just that. Who decided the legitimate “opposite” to the Standard was Whale Oil? Sheesh. Knock yourself out Millsy. If I don’t agree, doesn’t mean you can’t say what you have to.

    • weka 32.1

      Oh I agree, Millsy can write what they like. And people who respond can write what they like too.

    • Tracey 32.2

      Which is exactly what happened, millsy posted, people posted back and really only BM sought to escalate with an appalling barrage of assumptions and profanities.

      • weka 32.2.1

        BM’s comment at 17.2 looks like out and out fl*mming to me. He knows how to do it within the site’s rules too.

      • crocodill 32.2.2

        “really only”? LOL ok fine lets leave it there then. I’m just glad we’ve sorted out that anything is ok until admin forcibly censors someone.

        I gotta be honest, I am more likely to think of reasons why someone with a gun would be justified in pulling the trigger than for why two/three front line WINZ staff were completely innocent. Hero? I wouldn’t say that at all. Gunman, that’s accurate enough.

        Just like some can’t imagine a life that would bring them to a decisive moment where they pulled the trigger, I can’t imagine a life where I wold end up working at WINZ. I don’t know how the good would not be over-shadowed by the bad I did. And if I did, I would know that at any moment someone with a gun might walk through the door. No way would I die for Bennett’s hate.

        After the second world war scholars put a great deal of effort into deciding whether average German Joe was guilty of “just doing his job” or “following orders” and whether he/she had a moral right to refuse. Some of them, one woman in particular, came up with the proof that duty was a foundation of evil.

        If politics is war without guns, then who is innocent? Condoning violence against WINZ staff? hmmm, no, that’d be going a bit far. Surprised it doesn’t happen more often… yeah that’d be right.

        but then I’m not a good person, and don’t claim to be, although I often try to be good. Puckish Rogue’s qualification that we here are all hiding under the delusion we are good and reacting to evil government isn’t correct for me. Pretty obviously it isn’t.

  31. paul scott 33

    Micky Savage, this column, this one are on,
    Contains verbal abuse at the level or worse than the centre right.
    You people are the voice of Labour party. You are going to have to buy a lot of chocolate fish
    Do you send us the fish or is another part of your meaningless offer, that we call into the Standard Office, watch you write a charity cheque to someone we do not like.
    You are right Micky, you will not get takers. Its a doubly jeopardy blind offer and you know it.

    • karol 33.1

      paul, you are ignoring the comments above as to why you have not met micky’s challenge. He was not talking about verbal abuse from commenters. Maybe micky needs to clarify – put the kinds of personal attacks as exposed in Dirty Politics, are part of an orchestrated campaign against politicians and other people of note, and published in posts by the blog authors.

      You are deliberately doing a misdirection and misinformation.

      • vto 33.1.1

        yes, and perhaps paul could point to this “verbal abuse”, wherever it is …..

        for his own credibility of course

    • Weepus beard 33.2

      You people are the voice of Labour party.

      – paul scott

      Bannable offence, iIrc.

    • crocodill 33.3

      “You people are the voice of Labour party.”

      LOL good grief no, Paul. Apparently this site is a collection of comments aimed in the direction of the broader labour movement. I’d argue it isn’t even that, since that would exclude NZ Labour Party Policy, but hey, who cares.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 33.4

      Paul, these people are not the voice of the Labour Party you are looking for. Labour has its own website, and whether you like it or not The Standard is independent, and has authors who support a range of political positions from the Left.

      I don’t find your confusion surprising, after all, you are only repeating lies told be among others, the ex-Justice Minister.

    • Draco T Bastard 33.5

      I think that Labour would be somewhat surprised to find out that I’m the voice of Labour. In fact, so would I.

      And, no, you haven’t pointed to any thing like the corruption that occurs on whale oil.

    • Tracey 33.6

      Post your proof before you worry about payouts.

      Read the policy so you understand your ban when it comes.

      Look up verbal in the dictionary

      • One Anonymous Bloke 33.6.1

        Verbal refers to the written as well as spoken word.

        • Kiwiri 33.6.1.1

          Yup. Verbal refers to words (written/spoken).
          Oral refers to just spoken.
          Many people use ‘verbal’ when they really wish to exclude reference to the written word and intend the meaning of ‘oral’.

        • Tracey 33.6.1.2

          Crikey. I apologise to Paul on that one. Thanks for the learnifying kids!

  32. Puckish Rogue 34

    In case anyones wondering the companies that had pulled their advertsing from Whaleoil because some people that don’t like their political views complained, have now restarted re-advertising on Whaleoil

    So well done left, good try and all that but better luck next time

    • McFlock 34.1

      really? Which ones? I need to update my boycott list

    • vto 34.2

      ha ha ha … putting store in the driver of money …

      classic display of right wing thought and lack of wisdom

    • TheContrarian 34.3

      Who gives a shit?

    • crocodill 34.4

      “So well done left…”

      LOL who you talking to Willis?

      • Puckish Rogue 34.4.1

        To be fair its more against The Daily Blog but that blogs so damn toxic it makes The Standard look balanced

        • TheContrarian 34.4.1.1

          Yeah, The daily Blog is fucking awful. I’m sure Bradburys brain runs like thus:

          “Does comment agree with me?

          If: yes – allow

          If: no – who fucking cares? Do not allow

          • weka 34.4.1.1.1

            except for those comments that disagree with him and get published.

            • TheContrarian 34.4.1.1.1.1

              It was an exaggeration given Bombers adverse reaction to anyone that even remotely disagrees with him

              • crocodill

                Must be a recent trend… traumatic stress or something. He sat happily beside Cameron Slater on Citizen A and resisted the urge to strangle him for months.

              • weka

                I took it as being your annoyance that you pissed him off and now he won’t let your comments through. Or something.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Naw i don’t even bother going there, last time i was there I needed to take a long, hot shower with plenty of soap

        • Tracey 34.4.1.2

          Whale Oil makes Jeffrey Archer look like a pinup boy for truth

        • Tracey 34.4.1.3

          This piece of comedy gold may already have been discussed so I apologise in advance

          Personal Statement by Matthew Hooton
          Monday, 1 September 2014, 6:47 pm
          Press Release: Matthew Hooton

          Personal Statement by Matthew Hooton
          1 September 2014
          For Immediate Release
          “This morning I made comments on Radio New Zealand’s Nine to Noon programme about an attempt by staff in the Prime Minister’s Office to interfere in the appointment of my company, which, following a government procurement process, was carrying out work for the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority (CERA)’s Christchurch Central Development Unit (CCDU) in July 2012,” Matthew Hooton said.

          “My company’s work with CCDU continued until mid 2013 and involved, among other things, researching the knowledge of and interest in Christchurch by investors in Auckland, Australia and beyond.

          “I stand by all the statements I made on Nine to Noon including that the contact made by the Prime Minister’s Office to CERA was outside the State Sector Act.

          “I am very disappointed the prime minister has chosen not to get himself properly briefed on this matter before making disparaging comments about me to the parliamentary press gallery.

          “Despite all this, my support for the National Party is built deep into my DNA. As recently as last week I participated in a fundraiser for the Parnell National Party and have allowed my daughter’s image to be used on National Party campaign material.

          “I will be voting National for the party vote and, as advised for the prime minister, for the Act Party candidate in Epsom, David Seymour, and I hope National is able to form a government with its support partners Act, UnitedFuture and the Maori Party.”

          • Weepus beard 34.4.1.3.1

            My support for the National Party is built deep into my DNA.

            – Hoots

            Er…what? It’s biological now?

          • RedBaronCV 34.4.1.3.2

            So will Hooten’s daughter be pleased her image is used in such a way when she grows up? Look at the control he expects to assert over her life and the complete lack of respect he affords her wider interests. Why does he think he is entitled to make this decision for her no matter what her age? This is not a basic welfare decision.

            She is a person in her own right not a puppet to his political ambition. Sadly, I’m sure he sees nothing wrong with this.

    • That’s a bit garbled PR (comment 34) . I assume you mean – those companies which had pulled their adverts from Slaterblog because of complaints about the blogger’s politics, have started advertising on the site again.

      Clearly you were in too much of a hurry to get to the bit where you make your trademark attempt at a parting riposte.

  33. paul scottard 35

    OK, I lose the chocolate fish, because

    1,the post original has to be abusive, new rules
    2, the chocolate fish, you will not deliver to thailand village and it has to be collected from office of the Standard.. the voice of Labour
    3 .The donation goes to organisation I do not like
    4. Greg keeps changing the rules, and

    When I go into google it says the Standard . voice of the Labour party

    • One Anonymous Bloke 35.1

      English comprehension 101.

      It says “The New Zealand voice of the labour movement.”

      Seriously though, read the site policy (link at top of page) so that you understand your ban if/when it arrives.

    • framu 35.2

      really? – when i go into google it only says google – you have to enter search terms first

      and…..

      if you type “the standard” you get this “The Standard « The New Zealand voice of the labour …”

      do you see scott where its got “the” and”…”?

      if you dont want to be called an idiot stop being one

  34. paul scottard 36

    Reply
    Te Reo Putake 13.1.1.1
    2 September 2014 at 8:47 am
    Show me the quote you made up, bullshitter.

    adam 27.2.1.4
    2 September 2014 at 12:13 pm
    PR you’re a prig. Your an ideological vacuum waiting to be flushed. You don’t read what people say without your rose tinted glasses, you troll and you utter calumny – like your breathing. You comitatus ways are degenerative, and you live is a world of cupidity. I’m quite sick of your fatuous remarks.

    uckish Rogue 27
    2 September 2014 at 11:14 am
    Tully should be held up as a hero.
    – and this is why The Standard is as bad, if not worse then Whaleoil, disgusting comments like this hidden under the guise of good people reacting to the evil government

    No different to the arguement that she was asking for it, both arguements are wrong and people should be ashamed to use them

    crocodill 27.2.1.1
    2 September 2014 at 12:05 pm
    I’m sorry you have reading comprehension issues. Every day on this site, someone, if not me, is saying just that: Labour, National the stinking lot have consistently screwed the people of NZ.

    vto 21.2.1
    2 September 2014 at 12:05 pm
    So you better look out as someone will be along shortly to scream this at you.
    ….. fucking dangerous idiots, sticking their heads in the sand

    and so on ad nauseum

    • crocodill 36.2

      I’m just happy to be included in any review, good or bad. Better to be looked over than overlooked. No wait wasn’t that a fashion quote. AH who cares.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 36.3

      Um, none of those people are Micky Savage, Paul.

      • Draco T Bastard 36.3.1

        In fact they’re mostly our friendly RWNJ pr.

        • Puckish Rogue 36.3.1.1

          The funny thing is if you met me in a pub you’d probably get on with me

          • swordfish 36.3.1.1.1

            But we do get on with you, Pucks. Even back in the days when you were calling yourself The Gormless Fool formerly Known as Ole Ole Biscuit-Barrel, we all got on with you famously. You’ve always been our fave Tory Tr*ll – a playful wee scamp – a saucey smile, a wink, a wave, a cocky swagger, possibly a little tap-dancing…….I see you very much as New Zealand’s answer to Terry Wogan – You whirlwind of Sauce, you !

          • McFlock 36.3.1.1.2

            maybe so.
            I wouldn’t leave my wallet on the table with you around, though

    • framu 36.4

      quoting comments without context means didly shit paul

      lift you game
      make a point
      avoid painting yourself as a moron

    • Tracey 36.5

      How come you missed BM.

      Now, go find us an article signed as written by a particular author but actually a cut and paste from a person representing a company wanting to smear an opponent

      Or an email where three bloggers from three seperate blogs discuss with matthew hooton discuss harming nicky hager, and two provide street name and address to enable it.

      People wishing others death, and their families

      The liberal use of c… Homophobic and racial slurs

    • weka 36.6

      I didn’t get past ‘bullshitter’ and ‘prig’. I give up. The standard is a sewer. Which leaves me free to post the joke I just heard in an oldish Kim Hill interview with Sandy Toskvig, who when talking about benefit cuts, said it was the Tories that put the N in cuts. Laughed out loud.

      • Tracey 36.6.1

        Hehehe i chuckled when I heard that recently too.. And just as I posted about the lack of c… Here differentiating from WO

        • adam 36.6.1.1

          Me I’m confused, I thought I was polite and honest about a troll. What am I supposed to do, slip into Vetus Latina? Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis. Or use a mock latin aphorism – Illegitimi non carborundum.

          I love being taken out of context – paul scottard, please dear boy, come up with a better obloquy.

      • adam 36.6.2

        Prig is a perfectly, polite descriptive word. I know Weka old english, but, when the word fits.

        http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prig

  35. Inky 37

    We all have the opportunity to ask a question of Key tonight from 7pm — or Cunliffe, if you prefer. It’s the stuff leaders’ debate.

    To have the best possible chance of inclusion, I’d suggest questions be kept as brief as possible and to avoid sarcasm or nastiness, grandstanding and trying to make a political statement. Just a bloody good, concise question. I’d try for one that demands a yes or no answer. So give it a lot of thought, polish it and make it the best you’ve got because these opportunities don’t come along often.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10449997/Press-leaders-debate-2014-Live-tonight

    • weka 38.1

      “A number of “disturbing” threats have been made to Work and Income offices following yesterday’s shooting in Ashburton.”

      The one in Blenheim, the one up north. Have there been others?

      • vto 38.1.1

        If this doesn’t indicate that there is something terribly terribly wrong with our society then I give up

        It wasn’t like this in the (now distant) past, and people don’t change. So what has changed to cause this today in New Zealand? Perhaps the right wingers have some opinions on it? Come on brainboxes – apply some thought and analysis as to why this happens today when it didn’t in the past…

        • Colonial Viper 38.1.1.1

          Clearly benefit levels are too high and policing of benefits way too soft.

        • crocodill 38.1.1.2

          In the good old days we put bad people and women in borstals for their own good from an early age. That tended to keep the troublemakers out of sight, at least until they could be worked to death, married off, or squashed in an agricultural accident.

          • vto 38.1.1.2.1

            ha ha, you and CV are amusing ….. but imo it is the question at the heart of the problem. At the heart of why tragedies like Ashburton occur and why threats are being made again today…

            I mean, fuck, it is like the entire nationwide Winz dept needs to be shut down for protection …. what is to be made of things if that happens tomorrow? It is an indictment on us..

            Why is this happening today?

            Rightwingers? Any ideas? BM? Srylands? gosman? puckish rogue? Why is this happening when it didn’t in the past? What is your explanation?

            • Puckish Rogue 38.1.1.2.1.1

              Theres no real answer, people look back at the past with rose-tinted glasses which is understandable but would you really want NZ today to be like NZ of the 50s-70s?

              Homosexuality- Illegal
              Abortion – Illegal
              Child/Spousal abuse- Ignored
              Sexual violence – Still not good but one helluva lot better then it was (investigation wise I mean)
              Religious influence – More then it is today
              Internet – If its anything like the two week wait for a telephone I’d hate to see how long it’d take to be put on now
              Homogenous society

              Theres probably more of course but thats off the top of my head

              For a straight guy NZ in the 50s – 70s probably were fantastic (apart from the 6 o’clock swill that is) unless you’d like something different to eat

              Has NZ and the western world swung the pendulum too far…maybe, probably but how to swing it back without bringing back the negatives?

              I don’t know but i’m sure Brian Tamaki would have an idea or two…

              For my part while this is a tragedy hopefully its only a one off as you can probably trace its roots back to the reforms of the 80s and there hasn’t been many instances of this type of thing happening (thankfully)

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                “No real answer”.

                In fact we know a lot about causes and conditions of violence – it’s studied intensively.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  So whats the answer?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Less unequal societies are less violent. The evidence is in.

                    Welfare means a culture of caring for people, not “incentivising” them, or other dog-whistle-to-ignorance cak.

                    It starts at the top, with the example set by the Prime Minister, and obviously involves a lot more than that.

              • vto

                Why thank you pr, but your paragraphs 1 to 6 bear no relationship to the issue.

                Re your last paragraph, it is not a one-off though is it. There have been plenty of these things, though not murders like this one, which have occurred more and more frequently….. including a ramp-up today of more threats and Winz office closures.

                “can probably trace its roots back to the reforms of the 80s” ……….. that are being continued and hardened by John Key and his bastardly lot. This is clearly the cause – the me-me-me, greedy, individual, gotta be a “winner”, fuck everyone else, I got my Omaha bach, neoliberal approach and policies.

                It is this that has created today’s society. It is this that has caused these frequent (relative to pre-1980s) attacks.

                So, what is to be done? If this is the society that has been created and the sorts of actions that the downtrodden resort to, then how is the situation to be remedied?

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I used the 50s – 70s period as thats what most people seem to refer to as the good ‘ol days when we had near full employment, mom stayed at home and NZ was supposed to be more egalitarian so I was just pointing out the good ‘ol days arn’t always as good as it seems

                  “can probably trace its roots back to the reforms of the 80s” ……….. that are being continued and hardened by John Key and his bastardly lot. This is clearly the cause – the me-me-me, greedy, individual, gotta be a “winner”, fuck everyone else, I got my Omaha bach, neoliberal approach and policies.

                  – Being that by and large John Key led national is essentially Labour-lite I think its quite trite to just blame John Key unless you truly believe that the removal of John Key = a new enlightened age where everything bad is ended and everything good is increased?

                  • vto

                    Oh I quite agree. There is no doubt. But the Labour lot appear to have recognised the failures and limitations of that agenda and are moving heavily and steadily away from it. John Key remains in wedlock to it. The neoliberal dogma needs to be restricted to the manufacture of plastic buckets for the Warehouse (and even that is questionable), and not dumped on the likes of mine safety, helping our dispossessed neighbours, or most everything else.

                    Now, back to the point, after pointing the finger of blame ….. what is to be done about it?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I don’t know but I don’t believe its anything a political party in NZ can achieve

                    • “..But the Labour lot appear to have recognised the failures and limitations of that agenda and are moving heavily and steadily away from it…”

                      i do like to think that..

                      ..i live in hope..

                      ..there has been some movement..

                      ..but nowhere near enough..

                    • vto

                      pr “I don’t know but I don’t believe its anything a political party in NZ can achieve”

                      Oh come on pr, don’t be such a defeatist. It is political parties that created it and political parties that can uncreate it. The world has been better and worser before and can re-mould itself – as it has done from time to time……

                      unless by your reference to “… political party in NZ…” you indicate it has been part of a larger ‘conspiracy’ and as such more difficult to undo. Which is entirely probable / possible given the dogma’s placement in so many societies of the world at the same time since the 1980’s. In fact, you may be onto something…

                      I wonder ….. has John Key ever been involved in the largest most powerful entities in the entire globe? Those of the world’s bankers?

                      hmmm…

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      It was outside influences that created the golden period when Great Britain bought all our exports which allowed NZ to have an artifical economy which equaled near full employment, mom at home etc etc

                      So no its not being defeatist its more accepting that the government can’t fix/solve the problem so its time to look elsewhere (and John Key is not the answer/reason either)

          • BM 38.1.1.2.2

            I remember going and visiting a borstal for a school trip.

            Every one got a turn to stare through the door at one of the “inmates” after everyone had finished staring at this particular bad lad we then got a stern “this is what happens if your’e naughty , so you better be good” speech

            Yep, the good old days.

    • Tracey 38.2

      The thing is, to get context we need to know how many death threats WINZ usually getsbably have to do an OIA.

  36. Kiwiri 39

    National:
    Never wasting another darker, dirtier opportunity

    Latest (re)tweets:

    Eugenie Sage ‏@EugenieSage
    So PM’s Dept is to absorb CERA – a dangerous combination – CERA’s draconian powers and the dark ops of the Beehive’s 9 the floor

    Tamara ‏@hcirePT
    @EugenieSage @TheEgonomist And even after all the outcry with #DirtyPolitics, nothing has changed, it seems to be getting worse.

    • As I understand it, the PM’s Department is not the same as the Prime Minister’s Office.

      I think Matthew Hooton described the difference as the department being full of public servants and the office being filled with party ‘hacks’.

      I may be wrong – or Eugenie may be wrong in her tweet and it’s the PM’s Office not Department that is merging with CERA?

      • Kiwiri 39.1.1

        I will look up.

        The things John Key touches turn dirty anyway, sooner or later – a matter of time.

  37. Awww 40

    Looks like a number of threats to Work and Income offices/staff have been made after the shooting. Let’s pray there isn’t any further loss of life in copy-cat attacks.

  38. paul scott 41

    framu 36.4
    2 September 2014 at 2:19 pm
    “quoting comments without context means didly shit paul.
    lift you game
    make a point
    avoid painting yourself as a moron”

    may be just a small chocolate bar please Greg , google ‘ the Standard NZ’ and you will see it says the “voice of the Labour party”; now you say that is wrong, it could be wrong, or an old reference, but that is what it reads.

    • weka 41.1

      Ah, a self-martyring trole.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 41.2

      It says “the New Zealand voice of the labour movement” Paul. Framu is not Greg.

    • Tracey 41.3

      ” .The Standard « The New Zealand voice of the labour movement
      The …thestandard.org.nz/
      NZ First has a similar policy. Laila Harre makes some good points about public broadcasting and industrial relations. [Update: RNZ report; video clip added] …
      Politics
      Crusher crushed. Written By: Bunji – Date …

      About
      About. Who are you? Why “The Standard”? What’s … ”

      You got this far Paul. Misread the first line and didnt press “About”

      We need to apply NS to our Cabinet and our trolls

    • framu 41.4

      “but that is what it reads.”

      no paul – it doesnt

  39. aerobubble 42

    How many people did the drop in the top tax cut actually effect. What percentage of the working population was that? When will media explain that lowering the top tax rate actually means shifting the burden onto the lower and middle income earners who get less services as a result. That means less mine and forestry inspections and inspectors, it means lower wages and harder access to benefits as more is expected to be done with less.

  40. emergency mike 43

    https://www.google.co.kr/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#newwindow=1&q=the%20Standard%20NZ

    “The Standard « The New Zealand voice of the labour …”

    It’s the lies that make you look like a moron. Note the lower case ‘l’, that’s not how you write ‘Labour Party’.

  41. weka 44

    Is it just me, or is there a large number of editing of comments going on? I keep clicking on a comment and it’s disappeared, and then it reappears a minute or so later.

  42. michael gorman..the christchurch city mission head..

    ..just made a must-listen-to appearance on moras’ panel…

    ..where he spoke eloquently/powerfully on poverty in new zealand..

  43. adam 46

    Just for giggles – seeing as it’s election time

    That great stand up Maria Bamford

    • blue leopard 47.1

      Lol, that is a very good article!

      He has to be taking the piss… surely. I have to say I am left slightly in doubt, and that is what is really funny about it, because the exaggerated comments he makes is what a lot of the media and right-wingers sound like a lot of the time, so one is left in doubt!

      Cheers for the link, very amusing.

      I will laugh even harder if it turns out to be for real. 😆

      • Bearded Git 47.1.1

        Agreed blue-it’s irony for sure. But will Granny Herald’s readers get it?

        Lyons has a good track record of balanced articles that often query Nats’ policies.

        • blue leopard 47.1.1.1

          It looks like some of the commentators under the article have taken him seriously…unless they are being rather dry too…

    • ianmac 47.2

      Satire with a bite is Peter’s column. Brilliant.

    • Murray Olsen 47.3

      It’s satire, and very well done. All the right wing morans who commented took it very seriously.

  44. Paul 48

    Sigh.
    I see the attack bloggers have retuned.
    Spoils what has been a lovely few days discussing issues in a constructive, reasoned and well-humoured manner.
    Can a new whale dump occur to send them back for their new parroted lines?

  45. joe90 49

    Fun, fun, fun till Paddy took her ??? away….

    Patrick Gower ‏@patrickgowernz

    The Whaledump/Rawshark hacker has been in touch about Judith Collins/Cameron Slater comments of “forgery”. 3 News tonight. #decision14

  46. Flipnz 50

    You may have seen this essay which every citizen especially our leaders should get their heads around.

    http://test.synapsis.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Inequality_13Jun09.pdf

    Key Point –
    “that a cohesive well-functioning society and the economy are mutually entwined and beneficial”

    I feel like we have the hammer down going for economic broke hoping the bridge is up despite alarm bells sounding loud and clear.

    We maybe closer to the ecological and social limits than we realize and may have gone past a tipping point.

    We need to desperately reign in further government action that takes us further away from a sustainable economy and society until we can get a handle on where we are and fix it.

    I’ll vote for the party that best answers Nigel Latta’s questions.

  47. weka 51

    Did Gower do anything interesting?

  48. joe90 52

    The land grabs continue.

    The land, which is near the small Jewish settlement of Gvaot in the Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem, has now officially been declared “state land,” as opposed to land privately owned by Palestinians, clearing the way for the potential approval of Israeli building plans there.

    But the mayor of the nearby Palestinian town of Surif, Ahmad Lafi, said the land belonged to Palestinian families. He told the official Palestinian news agency Wafa that Israeli Army forces and personnel posted orders early Sunday announcing the seizure of land that was planted with olive and forest trees in Surif and the nearby villages of Al-Jaba’a and Wadi Fukin.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/world/middleeast/israel-claims-nearly-1000-acres-of-west-bank-land-near-bethlehem.html?_r=0

  49. Bearded Git 53

    Voting starts tomorrow on 3rd September. (David Cunliffe is voting tomorrow.)

    The best way to get rid of Key (putting aside partisan constituency feelings) is:

    Green Party Supporters-Party Vote Green
    Labour Party Supporters-Party Vote Labour
    Internet-Mana Supporters-Party Vote Internet-Mana (IMP)

    Te Tai Tokerau Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Hone Harawira

    Epsom Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Paul Goldsmith

    East Coast Bays Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Murray McCully

    Ohariu Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Virginia Andersen

    Waiariki Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Annette Sykes

    Te Tai Hauauru
    Green Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Adrian Rurawhe

  50. adam 54

    Odd question time – But has anyone else noticed the high rotation add on Youtube for Primary ITO? And is it just me or does it look like an election ad, dressed as an ad for a training institute. No wait, swap those around. It all seems deceitful and a little tawdry.

  51. ianmac 55

    Interesting. Katherine Rich-Nicky’s book. Sugar. Nigel Latta.
    Katherine believes that resisting sugar is a matter of personal choice. She rubbishes the anti-sugar team regardless of the science of sugar damage and addiction.
    Must go back to check the connection in the book.

  52. vto 56

    The people in New Zealand that vilify people like Tully should be ashamed.

    ashamed for the deaths

    ashamed for the lives lost

    ashamed for their ugly attitude

    where is the compassion? where is our humanity? where is our prime minister?

    • blue leopard 56.1

      I agree,

      There is a nasty culture brewing in NZ.

      It would appear that some sections of our community hate the poor and disadvantaged, yet what is even worse, they are encouraged to hate them by our political ‘leaders’ (if you can bare to refer to them as that).

      Sadly this type of hatred breeds more hatred.

      These ugly attitudes support political approaches that create more poverty and disadvantage.

      I would dearly love to see this aspect of NZ shift big time.

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