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Open mike 13/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 13th, 2019 - 166 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

166 comments on “Open mike 13/12/2019 ”

  1. Incognito 1

    Good morning all. Big day today.

    I hope it is not a sign of things to come today but OM got ‘stuck’ and missed its schedule by 7 min.

    Apologies for the inconvenience.

    • Sacha 1.1

      Isn't it just scheduled?

      • weka 1.1.1

        sometimes scheduling fails for reasons completely invisible to me. Not usually posts set that far ahead though. Weird.

      • Incognito 1.1.2

        I do the scheduling but occasionally scheduled posts failed to appear (!?) and I have to push them out manually. I noticed 7:06 AM and needed a minute to get over the shock 😉

    • lprent 1.2

      There is a fail-safe that will eventually unstick it. But 7 minutes is a bit long.

      However that can wait until well after I fall off a plane in jetlagged state on monday.

  2. pat 2

    Friday the 13th…..who's going to wear the bad luck?

  3. millsy 3

    The tragedy at White Island shows the importance of provincial hopistals, like the one at Whakatane. Most of these hospitals were closed down in the 1990's by National to pay for tax cuts, thankfully, Whakatane's was somehow kept open.

    • I agree. if there was a major tragedy in the Central Otago/Lakes district, or Fiordland, then there would be grossly inadequate hospital care available. Helicopters are used a lot now (they are in and out of Dunedin all the time), and there are advantages with evacuating people to larger hospitals, but capacity, travel time and weather are potential issues.

      No live volcanoes down this way, but there are major faultlines so earthquakes are an obvious risk.

      • McFlock 3.1.1

        there's a difference between not having basic secondary support and not having sufficient support to deal with a couple of dozen serious cases requiring ICU or specialists.

    • Sacha 3.2

      I'm impressed by how smoothly the dedicated burns units around the country have shared the load. Imagine needing a million square cm of skin for repeated grafting during the healing process.

  4. Sacha 4

    Expect roadworks galore over summer as maintenance budgets catch up on a decade of being diverted to building wasteful duplicate highways instead. Where are govt comms teams on this? https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/405389/nzta-doubles-road-maintenance-for-this-summer

    • Graeme 4.1

      Major re-seal underway this week at Lake Hayes, about 5 km of it. Less than two weeks to Christmas…… tradie meltdown.

      Credit to contractors though, they are doing a really good job of it and managing traffic well.

      Great irony is that it was last resealed about 3 years ago and fell to pieces because of a cheap job with no traffic management on the new seal. Going from less than 5000 vehicles/day 20 years ago to over 30,000 probably doesn't help either.

      • weka 4.1.1

        who is paying for the reseal?

        • Graeme

          Bloody good question. But when the last seal was done it was pretty obvious what was going to happen with the amount of post seal traffic control, and both contractors were the same, so I'd be looking at NZTA there for screwing the price down. Resealing is a very refined and practiced game, so that reduced price comes from doing less.

          • weka

            I've seen seal lift like that a few times, notably the Bay road on the Otago Peninsula. That would have been a DCC contract. Maybe the contracts need more scrutiny.

            • Graeme

              Culture of trying to hold cost down, which results in only doing half the job.

              Would have been interesting to see how National would have handled it if they had stayed in power, but a huge amount has to be done quite quickly. Big shout to the infrastructure team in Government that they are just doing it.

              • weka

                what I don't understand is why the contracts don't include a 'if it fails you hav to fix it' clause.

                • Graeme

                  They do, but if the contractor's work is within the scope of the contract then it's the principle's problem. A prudent contractor will tag out anything they foresee causing a problem as well. Pretty rare that a contractor stuffs up, does happen but margins aren't that great and having to re-do jobs hurts, even big contractors can't handle much of that, ie Fletchers

                  Generally roading problems go back to poorly scoped and / or specified contracts

                • Cricklewood

                  Part of the issues sit with the way the budgets work around new spends and maintenance. In short money is scrimped in the build phase to make a budget look good and then the fix up comes from the maintenance budget which is more opaque.

                  Contractors for the most part aren't thay keen on doing a half arsed job but that's where the contract specs…

      • Sacha 4.1.2

        Yes, we've been happy to pocket the income from more visitors but not to build the infrastructure they need. Public toilets are a disgrace too.

        • Graeme

          That growth isn't so much from the visitors, but from "locals". Building houses to house people to build more houses.

      • greywarshark 4.1.3

        5,000>30,000 daily in 20 years for vehicles on road near Lake Hayes. Would NZ tourists and new settlers in the area have caused that? Mainly international tourists causing that sort of exponential rise?

        • Graeme

          Mainly "locals". Interesting driving past a line of stopped traffic and getting a good look at the vehicles and occupants. Vast majority are either resident or construction related.

          • greywarshark

            A tight little circular economy; land sold, builders come, vital services installed, buyers come, traffic comes, more services and better roads needed. Repeat. But has that served the resident populations needs and interests? It brings to mind Flanders and Swann 'It all makes work for the working man to do.'

            • Graeme

              Scary thing up here is that there's no economy to pay for it all. Tourism doesn't pay that many million dollar mortgages.

              So building houses to house people to build more houses.

              Going to be really entertaining when it all unwinds

              • greywarshark

                Yes that's the picture I got from your comment. Seems that this house stuff is like a big Ponzi scheme. There just isn't enough reliable business going on to invest in that will produce 8% or more dividend annually. So solid-brick housing, or what appears to be solid, is the plat du jour.

                Too much money sloshing around while those diseased with affluenza have the gripe and the gout from accumulated money blockage but won't allow a small operation to make the equivalent of an organ donation to a small-loans low interest bank so that it can be used where it will give immediate relief and healthy, steady growth.

  5. greywarshark 5

    I have been reading a crime novel that is so-so. But the author has come up with an apt description of the residents of a self-centred, materialistic, hubristic gated community. I thought that the above description of the culture of the community sizes up National Party thinking. The author describes the attitudes of the individuals:

    'Malice with taste, cruelty with restraint, and deceit with a smile.'

    (An old paperback 19993 by Janice Law; A Safe Place to Die.)

  6. tc 6

    I see the whakatane mayor wants White Island trips to resume. she's quoted as saying "nature of adventure tourism is that there is a degree of risk.." Risk of injury maybe but dying isn't part of healthy tourism industry.

    Leadership required here as whilst we're known for adventure tourism, landing people on a small island that has an active volcano most would say is more than risky.

    I turned down a trip there years ago as it's an active volcano, no thank you. Like whale watching, go close but don't endanger anyone. IMO no more landing tourists on the island ever again.

    • McFlock 6.1

      First question is "how did tour operators assess the risk before each trip?"

    • weka 6.2

      Wow, that's kind of early for a Mayor to be having that conversation. They're still bringing the bodies home, and the rahui is still in place.

      • weka 6.2.1

        I would support the govt providing financial support for people affected by loss of income. This is what the social security system is meant to do.

  7. weka 7

    This was probably more interesting earlier in the morning, but here's the HMNZS Wellington and support boat near Whakaari.


    Hatip mpledger the day of the eruption.

  8. james 8

    Exit polls indicate Bills predictions were a long way off – lets see what the evening delivers.

  9. Gosman 9


    [Sadly, we will have to miss your lovely trolling contributions over Christmas because you have failed to respond to moderation requests. Banned for three weeks and enjoy the break – Incognito]

    • greywarshark 10.1

      That is a great idea bwaghorn. Thanks for link.

      How much crystalline silicon have we in the world? I haven’t read all the article yet but the demand would be enormous. It could be a great idea but not sustainable, and obtaining it could damage the environment. So I will read on to check affects.

      Thatsite has interesting science headings down the bottom, could be one to bookmark.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 10.1.1

        A lot of sand / rock is silicon – so no shortage of the underlying raw material. But takes significant energy to convert to the forms used in solar cells, so there is a potential greenhouse gas consideration.

  10. greywarshark 11

    The UK voters are queuing; that shows Brit solidarity and determination rising to the fore indicating determination for something, not apathy which might have fallen upon the benighted country grappling with EU disagreements within UK for the best part of…decades. I hope the determination is not to cut themselves adrift from Europe
    which might be with a bang, but will end up with a whimper.

    The Guardian has produced a great little timeline outlining important dates in the bubbling volcanic situation between the UK and the EU. The summaries make for interesting reading as these neighbours attempt harmonious and prosperous relationships.


    Back to queues, I am reading a book by Polish Major General Stanislaw Sosabowski* who in WW2 got away to the UK in about 1940 with Polish troops and became Commander there. He said 'queue' was the first English word he learned. The Polish fought with the UK on the Allied side. When they arrived in England he notes his first sight was of the 'beautiful Plymouth cliffs'. The green grass, the brightly painted houses, the boys and girls swimming were peaceful and comforting, in contrast with frightened, burning France…

    * Freely I Served by Major General Stanislaw Sosabowski from Battery Press, Nashville USA ISBN 0-89839-061-3

    In a foreword to this book British General Sir Richard Gale writes; "In these days of alliances it is of vital importance that we British should understand our allies. They have points of view, often at variance with ours. Though their aims are the same as ours, their approach to problems will often differ."

    ‘The Polish forces as a whole are considered to have been the 4th largest Allied army in Europe, after the Soviet Union, United States and Britain.’… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II#Polish_Forces_(West)

    The ties to Europe from the UK can not be lightly passed over. The idea of going off like rough and smart buccaneers comes from the upper classes, who often made all their money from extractive ventures in other countries where they gained dominance.

    In actuality: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50719616
    Brexit: Free trade deals 'won't offset leaving EU'

    Independent trade experts from the UK Trade Policy Observatory (UKTPO) looked at the likely impact of US, Australian and New Zealand free trade deals.

    They found that even combined, new tariff-cutting agreements were likely to boost the UK economy by just 0.4%.

    A simple free trade deal would also depress the economy UKTPO said.
    The body said that moving from full EU membership to a simple deal with our closest trading partner – the objective enshrined in Boris Johnson's Withdrawal Agreement – would depress the size of the economy by at least 1.8%.

  11. James 12

    Looking like Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson is could lose her seat – Excellent news. Its lining up to be a good day – lots of interesting results to come.

  12. pat 13

    Not looking like a very promising end to the year….UK election and this

    "The talks, known as COP25 in UN parlance, appear to be faltering, according to interviews with negotiators, delegates and observers, who say there is a serious risk of failure.

    Developing countries are growing increasingly angry at what they have called concerted attempts by high-emitting countries to block progress in Madrid."


  13. james 14

    For anyone who thought Corbyn wasnt the problem.

    You were wrong.

    • TootingPopularFront 14.1

      Yup, dirty politics by the massed forces of the British establishment appear to have been sufficient to grind the reputation of an extraordinarily principled man into the dust.

    • Stuart Munro. 14.2

      Pfft – much you know about Corbyn.

  14. weka 15

  15. Labour MPs who are not happy:


    Sorry @daneacross this is one mans fault. His campaign, his manifesto, his leadership.


    For @UKLabour leadership to blame Brexit for the result is mendacious nonsense. Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership was a bigger problem. To say otherwise is delusional. The Party’s leadership went down like a lead balloon on the doorstep. Labour’s leadership needs to take responsibility.


    We warned this would happen. We tried everything we could to prevent the hard-left self-indulgence within the Labour Party. And now the country will pay the price. I’m so sorry too few within Labour took a stand with us, when it would have mattered.

    [sorry Pete, lefties only in that thread – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 16.1

      Pete, when you are quoting tweets, please click on the date/time stamp of the tweet, then copy and paste the URL into the TS comment text box. This will link to the tweet not the account, and thus people can click through for context. Thanks.

      • weka 16.1.1

        it will look like this (and I think one tweet per comment is better unless there is a good reason to put them together).

      • weka 16.1.2

      • weka 16.1.3

      • weka 16.1.4

        if you don't want the tweet embedded, then you can past the quote, then click on the date/time stamp, copy the URL, then paste into a comment using the link HTML tags. More work that way.

    • Obviously you get to judge leftness in this case.



      From https://yournz.org/2019/02/09/political-compass-policies-versus-practice/

      That put me close to the Maori, Mana and Green parties and a long way left of Labour and especially National.

      • weka 16.2.1

        pity your commenting history doesn't reflect that then.

        • Pete George

          It probably depends on what you consider passes for leftness – that further lefties are intolerant of anyone deemed doesn't determine my politics.

          But according to some on your lefty only post the Labour MPs and ex MPs I quoted probably wouldn't be deemed lefties either.

          I find this left/right division quite amusing and bemusing – and often quite inaccurate. And some wonder why 'the left' is struggling for support.

          • weka

            Pete, you're a centrist. Own it and be proud of it.

            • weka

              also, if you want to talk politics with actual lefties and be taken seriously maybe focus more on the politics and less on taking potshots at the left.

              • Wayne


                I note in your "lefties only" comment item on the UK election that some (you included) are saying Jacinda will loose in 2020 because she is not left enough.

                Surely the result in the UK shows that is wrong. Jacinda is successful because she is not seen as extreme. She uses progressive language, but does not threaten an economic revolution. Instead she says things can get better with a moderate amount of social democracy.

                Most people don't want revolution because who knows where it might end up. Revolutions are full of risk. And basically don't happen in democratic nations.

                While there is no doubt Johnson's simple Brexit message appeals because it offers certainty (in contrast to Labour promise of more confusion), I am also certain that Corbyn's socialist message did not appeal. What Labour needs is a modern Blair. In fact that is exactly what Jacinda is. Which in my view is why she is successful.

                A question, would Blair be reviled if Iraq had never happened, or instead would he be seen as the most successful Labour Prime Minister ever?

                • Andre

                  would Blair be reviled if Iraq had never happened

                  Given how strongly some commenters here condemn Bill Clinton and Obama, I assume that's just a rhetorical question.

                • weka

                  No, I think Labour will get to form govt next year, but it will be closer than is comfortable for the left. Labour do have a problem in that many people voted Labour last time presumably because of JA (multiple reasons) but may be disappointed in what Labour have achieved. The solution to that is to vote Green, so we're not in the same situation as the UK.

                  "I am also certain that Corbyn's socialist message did not appeal."

                  Obviously not enough, but I think the UK election is more about poor voter turnout, people being sick of Brexit back and forth, Labour Leavers objecting to Labour's second referendum, vote splitting with the LDs, MSM and poll bias and so on. In other words, lots of dynamics going on.

                  The issue for the left is how to shift the Overton Window in NZ. I agree with you that NZ doesn't want a revolution, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to move the centre. The right has done this in the past 35 years without prior approval /shrug.

                • weka

                  Blair is hated because of how he cemented neoliberalism. Without Iraq only the neoliberals would see him as a great PM.

                  • Wayne


                    I know that is a theme with the momentum left, but in truth their views only appeal to a small minority of voters. Some on the left also accuse Helen Clark of also accepting/endorsing neo-liberalism, but most people regard her as a very good PM. Without Iraq wouldn't Blair be seen in the same light?

                    In my view NZers (apart from a mysogonist rump) have formed the same view of Jacinda as they did with Helen. A same pair of hands who won't fundamentally unsettle the economic compact that prevails in NZ (for instance her commitment against CGT so long as she is PM). The major criticism she gets is that she (her government) have not delivered that well on their stated targets. In my view that is fixable with more focus and discipline.

                    • weka


                      From a YouGov poll at the start of November, asking about policies in Labour's manifesto.

                      … and generally they are pretty, or very popular.

                      The tax rises on the rich are actually the most popular policy YouGov polled: The most popular is the 50 per cent tax rate for earnings over £123,000: 64 per cent of voters support that, with just 20 per cent opposed and 16 per cent not sure.

                      A 45 per cent rate for earnings over £80,000 is similarly popular: 60 per cent support and just 23 per cent oppose.

                      Concerns that voters would oppose tax rises on a bracket they one day hope to aspire to seem to be, frankly, not true.

                      The party's nationalisation plans are also broadly popular: 56 per cent support nationalising railways and just 22 per cent oppose. Water companies 50 per cent support and just 25 per cent oppose. Utilities like gas and electricity are supported by 45 per cent – though Labour's policy is less ambitious than this and relates to the national grid and publicly owned competitors.

                      The most high-profile announcement on broadband is a bit more complicated: voters aren't as sure about nationalising Openreach, with 32 per cent supporting and 31 per cent opposed – not an unpopular policy by any means. But the ends of the policy: free broadband for all, is widely supported. 62 per cent support the idea and 22 per cent oppose it.

                      The plans discussed by John McDonnell on Friday to overhaul corporate governance and make boards one third elected workers have also been very positively received: 54 per cent support these policies and 21 per cent oppose them.

                      What to make of all this? The public are absolutely not scared of government intervention and quite like Labour's socialist platform. These policies individually range from quite popular to ridiculously popular.


                    • Stuart Munro.

                      There's more that troubles the Left than you suppose Wayne. Clark rode into office on a wave of resentment against the vicious and ineffectual policies of the Black Decade of Gnat misrule.

                      Jacinda also needs to distance herself from the squalor and ineptitude of Gnat misrule, not cozy up to the fork- tongued weasels of the right.

                      The CGT is long overdue – but we understand, Boomer, that you never intended to pay your share.

                • SPC

                  Wayne, UK Labour is losing seats in the north because the working class there has Brexit sympathy. Given the Blairite faction is the pro Remain one in the caucus – while they will blame Corbyn for the defeat, it's an outright deceit.

                  Blair won elections – but he also encouraged local takeover of state schools, creating a lot of resistance in working class areas to inward migration by Moslems. Then there was the opening up of the labour market to the East Europeans (10 years before Germany) and thus an influx leading to northern support for Brexit. Whatever his intent it has come to bite Labour big time. And now they will blame it on Corbyn and reclaim their natural right to be lords managing the working class party like bosses of a company founded union.

                  • The Al1en

                    And labour have picked up their only gain in Putney, my old stomping ground, which overwhelmingly voted remain.
                    Corbyn’s brexit stance has damaged labour, and proves that an each way bet may sometimes work on the gee gees, but not so much in politics.

                    • SPC

                      Given Corbyn was leading a pro Remain caucus, how could he have taken a side that would have helped Labour hold (Brexit voting) seats in the north?

                      His real mistake was to agree to an election before Brexit was sorted. It was an election which would give BJ a majority for Brexit and cost him and maybe the left leadership of Labour.

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      I think the Al1en was highlighting that most Labour boroughs were pro brexit and the UK Labour position on that appears to have influenced the election outcome.

                      Here is a prediction of just that from a few weeks ago,


                • Nic the NZer

                  Harsh Wayne. I am generally a critic of NZ Labour but even I wouldn't accuse Jacinda of being NZs Tony Blair.

                  Also Iraq isn't something which just happened to the war criminal. Its a war he actively persued. His legacy is obviously not separable from the policies he persued in office.

                • Ad

                  I will turn to that question in a post shortly.

                • Incognito

                  While there is no doubt Johnson's simple Brexit message appeals because it offers the perception of certainty …


                  This was not an election, it was the second referendum. Simplicity appeals because it makes it appear simple while, in fact, it is the opposite.

                  People were sick of it. However, the future is as uncertain as tomorrow’s Lotto numbers and perhaps even less so because we don’t even know how many balls are in the game and when they will be drawn. If Boris is the man to do it then I suggest people have no clue what it entails.

            • Pete George

              I don't consider myself a centrist. I don't think you have much idea at all about my political and policy preferences.

              There's things I support across the spectrum, and also don't support. Same with politicians. I think two of the more successful MPs this year have been David Seymour on the End of Life Choice Bill and Chloe Swarbrick on a number of issues. Both have worked hard across party lines.

              James Shaw has done pretty well given the political circumstances, again working cross party – but I know he's not left enough for some here either. Would you stop him from commenting in one of your lefty-only threads?

              • McFlock

                I suspect that there's more than a few outliers to the right of the spectrum that you support.

                • Suspicions are meaningless without specifics.

                  I don't really care what others may deem to be right or left, it's a pointless game unless you want to promote differences and division.

                  I understand that some old school activists can't fathom it,but it's becoming more common that people ignore political labels and pigeon holes and judge issues on what they see as their merits and drawbacks.

                  Actually while large party PR tries to promote differences there's a lot more common ground and cooperation in Parliament than is publicly apparent. Bloody centrists.

                  • weka

                    "I don't really care what others may deem to be right or left, it's a pointless game unless you want to promote differences and division."

                    And yet you clearly tried to join a dedicated left wing conversation. As mentioned, keep shitting on the left and we're hardly likely to want to engage.

                    • How is quoting UK Labour MPs 'shitting on the left'?

                      Iain McNicol was general secretary of Labour from 2011 to 2018

                      I think it's you (and others) who shits on anyone deemed outside your political bubble. I get it that you don't like being told that, but I think it's a big problem for the leftward in Aotearoa. 'Divide and conquer' doesn't work very well when it's just on your own side of the political divide.

                      James and Chloe get how successful politics needs to work. Some of their party supporters could learn something off them, but I don't know whether that will happen.

                    • weka []

                      I wasn’t referring to the tweet, but to you spending way more time here bitching about the left. It’s in most of your comments, about how lacking the left is and what their problem is. Maybe consider that I don’t want to talk politics with you because of that. You can choose to be defensive about that and continue doing, all I’m saying is that it won’t endear me to talk politics.

                      One of the reasons I support the Greens is because of their beyond L/R kaupapa. But it’s hard in a space like TS, which isn’t culturally green, to work with that. Much of that atm is due to trolling and the large amount of time/energy spent combating that, as well as the interpersonal stuff. This is why I am suggesting to you (not just today) to focus on the politics not the inter personal fighting and put downs of the left. If people are giving you a hard time based on history I think your redemption is to take the higher ground and talk politics. Not that will be necessarily easy, but the opposite will just keep you mired in the bullshit (and eventual bans). FWIW.

                    • Stuart Munro. []

                      It is notable that you only quote Labour MPs who dissent from Corbyn' s very moderate social democracy.

                      Had you anything positive to contribute we would have seen some of it by now.

                    • "to you spending way more time here bitching about the left.

                      I call bullshit on that.

                      I don't bitch about centrists either.

                      A funny thing is that I think that maybe most of the bitching about the left here is from a few on the far left.

                  • McFlock

                    Dude, it was things that you claimed were across the spectrum.

                    So these things that you agree with that you said are from all parts of the spectrum, what % do you think, in your estimation, come from the right third, the middle third, and the left third of the spectrum?

                    Or is answering that question too close to introspection for your taste?

                    • It's pretty much undefinable especially in any quantifiable way – but prove me wrong and try it for yourself if you like – and I think pretty much irrelevant.

                      In general I don't like the direction Bridges and National are moving at the moment, I think that while the government has been a bit slow and underperforming and underwhelming policies promoted by Labour and Greens seem mostly fairly good. I realise that's not left enough for some here, but it's around about where many voters seem to be comfortable.

              • weka

                "There's things I support across the spectrum, and also don't support"

                Yes Pete, this is what makes you a centrist.

                • You can't 'make' me anything. I may tend center-ish on some things, but I don't see myself as a centrist, because that suggest to me an unwillingness to look at ideas and policies right across the spectrum.

                  Both John Key and Jacinda Ardern have been described as political pragmatists – I largely support much of the approach of both of them, but with some criticisms.

                  But that's nothing like a centrist label. Why do you see a need to label other than to exclude people from some of your discussions?

                  You want more people to support the Greens (I've voted Green at times) but dump on people that don't fit with whatever you think is necessary to be green. That seems counter-productive to me.

                  I think that one of the best ways of learning about issues is by engaging with people with different ideals and ideals. But I have found that engagement is not what most political activists seem to want, they prefer the 'agree or you're an enemy' type of approach.

                  • weka

                    It's not me making you centrist Pete, it's your views.

                    "I largely support much of the approach of both of them, but with some criticisms."


                    You can call yourself whatever you like Pete, and sure, pick a word that isn't 'centrist', but that doesn't make you left wing. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. LW people don't support John Key.

                    You want more people to support the Greens (I've voted Green at times) but dump on people that don't fit with whatever you think is necessary to be green. That seems counter-productive to me.

                    I'm not actually expect you to support the Greens, but it is true that I've given you a hard time over the years. Before I was an author and mod that was mostly driven by seeing the impact you had on the discussions coupled with you being unwilling to take feedback on it and instead staying to fight which just causes disruptions. That's not about your politics but instead is about how you engage. The Chairman has a similar problem and it is hard to overcome such a reputation.

                    But, you know how to think and formulate and argument and what I am suggesting here is that instead of choosing to fight about your right to be here or part of the left, instead talk politics. eg this conversation started with you debating the way the Lefties thread is being run. Instead you could have talked about the UK election.

                    If you want to talk meta politics (eg how political debate happens on TS, issues with L/R framing), then try and separate out the behaviour from the personal stuff. But I think you need to be solid on the political debate first.

                    • "If you want to talk meta politics (eg how political debate happens on TS, issues with L/R framing), then try and separate out the behaviour from the personal stuff. But I think you need to be solid on the political debate first."

                      That's really funny, but I presume you didn't intend it as a joke.

                      You at least tacitly support personal attacks and sideshows here with no attempt made to discuss the topic raised (that happened a day or two ago and many times in the past) when I post something, and blame me for that behaviour?

                      Next thing will you be saying that posting something that someone else may disagree with is asking for it?

                    • weka []

                      “You at least tacitly support personal attacks and sideshows here with no attempt made to discuss the topic raised (that happened a day or two ago and many times in the past) when I post something, and blame me for that behaviour?”

                      In the interests of us getting somewhere then, can you please link me to what you are referring to and give a brief explanation of what you think I am missing in terms of moderation? My memory of the past week was of a lot of time and energy being spent managing trolls, and doing some early intervention to dampen down fires. It’s entirely possibly I am missing something, so it’s always better to be specific (otherwise I won’t know how you are seeing things).

                      “Next thing will you be saying that posting something that someone else may disagree with is asking for it?”

                      As you know, my position, and something I say reasonably often when moderating is that abuse for its own sake isn’t ok, but that people can get away with being rude if they are making a political comment. It’s the balance between the robust debate ethic and not using tone or language that puts other people off. I don’t set the standard for that here, but like other mods I do influence it by how I moderate. I’m open to feedback that is constructive.

                      In terms of asking for it, unfortunately it’s a dynamic of many online spaces (and RL too) that communities of people just get sick of certain patterns of behaviour when they go on too long. There’s not really anything much a moderator can do about that once it involves a large number of people. Hence the tendency to focus on the person perceived as having the problematic behaviour. The obvious exception to that is if a mob forms and targets someone, but that’s not so common on TS at the moment (have seen it in other political spaces though). What people forget here is that much of moderation comes down to lessening moderator work load in the future and often in the ends if there is an intractable problem it’s just more efficient to remove the most impactful part of the dynamic. It’s not that people are asking for abuse, it’s that there are people who just simply refuse to change and there has to be a break point somewhere if we don’t want the community destroyed.

          • Psycho Milt

            I find this left/right division quite amusing and bemusing…

            Then stop quibbling about it with people who aren't bemused by it.

            • Pete George

              Sorry, I didn't see that this thread was restricted to the non-bemused only. Where does it say that?

              • If you confuse my comments with some kind of official declaration by the site's moderators, that's not my fault. You've said you're bemused by "this left/right division" – in that case, take the advice of people who aren't bemused by it: no, you're not part of the left.

                • "no, you're not part of the left"


                  Obviously I'm not part of the left who judge everyone else's leftworthiness and dump on anyone deemed not up to scratch, but I don't think you own membership of the left.

                  If your "the left" drives all the unworthy away what do you think you will have left? Probably only infighting left.

                  • Only you seem to be under the impression you've been deemed "unworthy" of something, Pete. The rest of us are just pointing out that "lefties on the The Standard" doesn't include you, for reasons you've provided extensively via your comments.

                  • Ad

                    Pete, Weka's little club of purists just lets the losers weep for a bit.

                    Come back tomorrow once they're dried themselves and straightened their mascara.

        • james

          So the election thread is only for people that others on here identify as "lefties" – regardless of peoples own view of their own politics?

          Anyway – I identify as a "righty" – if you disagree please let me know and Ill come comment in the election thread.

          • weka

            No the post in question is Lefties on the Standard, part of an ongoing series of leftie-dedicated discussion. Read the post ffs.

            At the moment I make the call on who can take part, and that is almost entirely predicated on people's commenting history.

          • weka

            I will add that I did think about the good of TS generally in running a leftie only post on UK election day when it was likely that no other author would put up an election post. But actually, with some exceptions, the quality of right wing contributions to the commentariat at the moment is so low I don't think it matters. Most of the volume from the right recently has been Gosman and co trolling. I'm pleased to see some other righties making an effort and I hope this increases. Bring decent political discussion to the table and we'll all have a better time.

          • Incognito

            FYI, James, if you comment like a “righty” you are likely to cop some flak but might also earn some respect depending on how you handle things. If you act like a stirrer, you will cop a ban.

      • Andre 16.2.2

        Weren't you quite tight with United Future?

        Yet United Future's positioning is (was) quite a long way from your claimed position, and there's three other parties awfully close to the line between your claimed position and UF.

        • Pete George

          Not really, I had a dabble which was a very interesting experience but very much from the outside – and I had an undertaking that I could promote cannabis law reform if the opportunity arose.

          But that's a long time ago and has little to nothing to do with now – except that after the efforts of many people from different political leanings cannabis law reform may be a reality in the next year or two. I had a very useful discussion with Kevin Hague on it while he was still an MP. Some Green supporters are happy to talk to anyone with common interests.

    • Siobhan 16.3

      Siobhain McDonagh has never done anything other than make the UK Labour Party look bad.

      Phil Wilson..among other things ..a very successful lobbyist for the Gambling Industry.

      Leslie left Labour alongside six other MPs in protest at the leadership of Corbyn to form The Independent Group,

  16. james 17

    Gareth Snell, the labour candidate in Stoke-on-Trent Central – who hasnt lost yet (but expects too) says Corbyn should resign.

    That didnt take long did it?

    Corbyn and momentum have been nothing short of a disaster for Labour. Could be a decade before they get a look in again.

    • Andre 17.1

      Could be a decade or more. Or maybe someone with a more engaging and pragmatic personality will emerge from the ranks and turn things around like Jacinda did.

      Let's face it, BloJo really isn't likely to do anything that's going to improve his image and popularity, is he? So he's always going to be vulnerable to a Labour party with a leader that's at least moderately acceptable.

    • Wensleydale 17.2

      That's one of the things that's always bothered me about political defeats. Instead of regrouping and thinking about what could be done differently/better next time, people start slagging each other off, and screeching, "This is all your fault!" Labour looks likely to lose, and that sucks. Britain has a chance to do something different and better under the leadership of beige, cardigan-wearing hippie with a track record of fighting the good fight and only the best of intentions. Instead they'll probably chose the leadership of a pathological liar with a personal grooming phobia — a man who would rather hide in a fridge than face the humiliation of being grilled by the media. Because he's quite obviously full of shit and making it up as he goes along.

      If the Tories win… well done, Britain. Give yourself an upper cut.

  17. greywarshark 18

    Whakaari Island. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/405402/live-whakaari-white-island-eruption-day-5

    Australian Nine News

    New Zealand authorities will start a criminal investigation into the circumstances of the death and injuries of those impacted by the White Island volcano. Subscribe: https://bit.ly/2noaGhv Get more breaking news at: https://bit.ly/2nobVgF

  18. james 19

    Looking at the results – its an extremely clear mandate for brexit now.

    No more moaning from the left – it was clear a vote for Boris was a vote to leave – fast !

    • Peter chch 19.1

      Yeah, that's how I see it too. Not Boris or Jeremy, Left or Right. A simple 'Leave' or 'Remain' choice.

      I guess the people voted for Leave, and Boris made a clear and time stamped promise to fulfill that (forgetting for the moment whether or not he can deliver), and Jeremy…. well what did Jeremy want – leave or remain?

      Therein lies the seeds of Labours defeat today. I guess defy the will of the people at your peril.

      • james 19.1.1

        Dont discount that Corbyn was unelectable. Brexit may have been the defining issue – but Corbyn is the reason for the mammoth defeat that will have the Tories in power for a decade.

      • Anne 19.1.2

        … defy the will of the people at your peril.

        Defy the will of the majority you mean. Let's face it, the majority are frequently morons who only understand words of one syllable. That could be described as a fault across all Labour/Labor parties who like to use words of two syllables or more.

        For the more moronic among us (ie.rwnjs) yes, I’m exaggerating to make a point.

        We can look forward to fun and games watching the Tories bugger-up Brexit and Britain (with the possible exception of Scotland) goes down the gurgler.

        • james

          Gee Anne – you sound a bit bitter.

          The people have spoken. Labour and Corbyn are being given the message loud and clear.

          Still there will be hard of learning like yourself who think you know better than everyone else.

          • Psycho Milt

            You keep talking about "the people" and "everyone" as though referring to some overwhelming majority, rather than a plurality of voters. The UK has an FPP electoral system, so a "landslide" win could mean little more than 40% of the vote. Likewise, a "landslide" loss could also mean more than 40% of the vote. There is no "the people have spoken" under FPP, just some decisions by a relatively small number of voters in a relatively small number of seats. That's why we dumped it.

          • Anne

            I knew it!

            Saw that dear James was back among us so dropped him an encouraging line. He fell for it as he invariably does.laugh

        • Peter chch

          Anne. The 'majority' are just that. So you think MOST people are morons who, presumably because they disagree with you, are not capable of understanding what affects them or not?

          So clearly, in your eyes, the majority should not have the right to choose their future. Yeah, let's bring in those who know better and can think on their behalf.

          Pathetic. The extreme left always pretend to speak for the people, but never wish to listen to them.

          I suggest you read your post again, as clearly the concept of democracy is something you either fail to understand or do not believe in. And you are a Labour NZ person of long standing who, at least publicly, pretended to wish to represent the people. Not good.

          • Anne

            Get off your high horse and read what I said P chch

            1) I made it clear I was exaggerating.

            2) I was baiting James who has a history for making exaggerated claims and starting flame wars. Hence the reason he regularly gets banned from this site.

            3) I wasn't disclaiming your view rather adding to it.

            4) Many people are politically moronic naive. If it is considered non-pc to say so then… happy to admit I'm non-pc.

            As for being extreme left… good grief. 😯

            • greywarshark

              Perhaps that little endpiece /sarc should be used again. People who when annoyed don't go out and kinghit somebody, or kick the cat or dog, need to vent with sarcasm, irony, wit or whatever as the more controlled and cerebral outlet. But some people have never developed the ironic bit in the brain that can tell when someone is having someone on.

              I am just reading Our Kids – the American Dream in Crisis by Robert D Putnam and on p161 I think he talks about the importance of brain development from pre-natal time and especially 3-5 years. I think many NZs lack much stimulation in these foundation years. He talks about what seems to be the 'tennis affect' – the baby gurgles or utters sounds, the carer looks at the baby and makes a sound in turn. Then the baby tries that simple communication again, and is encouraged by interest from the carer, and so on. Simple eh, and not new, but just confirmed as absolutely necessary for underpinning the habit of communication and confirmation of the worth of the individual's thought.


          • Barfly

            learn some maths sunshine…conservatives 43.6% brexit 3 %..the conservatives got a plurality ..which under fpp gave them a big majority of seats…they were further away from a majority of voters than national were here

          • Psycho Milt

            The 'majority' are just that.

            It's so sweet that you think the Conservative Party got a majority of the vote. Or at least, it would be sweet if you were a child. In an adult it would just be exasperating – hopefully you're under 18?

    • Stuart Munro. 19.2

      Putin will be rubbing his hands with delight.

  19. james 20

    WOW – Ruth Smeeth, the Labour candidate for Stoke-on-Trent North.

    "Jeremy Corbyn’s action on antisemitism have made us the nasty party. We are the racist party. When you have a prime minister who has said such vile Islamphonic comments and we’re the racist party because of the actions of my leader, then we have a real real problem.

    The Labour party needs detoxified, we need to move on and this culture needs destroyed within the party."

    Personally I think anyone who stood behind Corbyn and his party while comments like the above deserve to lose their seat.

    • Cinny 20.1

      Hey James, I saw that interview on Sky News, was like crikey she doesn't like him at all.

      She was nasty as about her leader.


      Sounds like Corbyn will stay on for a short time then resign, judging from his speech, after retaining his seat.

      • james 20.1.1

        when you have a leader saying "such vile Islamphonic comments" – its easy to be nasty about them.

        deservidly so if you believe it

        • Cinny

          I don't know much about it, but that interview was jaw dropping.

          • Anne

            Notice she used the expression "Jews". That is regarded as a demeaning slang word for "Jewish" people. If she doesn't know the correct nomenclature, then you have to wonder if the rest of her rant is any more correct.

            I don't know the truth for sure, but have long held the suspicion that the extent of anti-semitism inside the British Labour Party has been a big beat-up by Corbyn opponents.

            • In Vino

              I agree, Anne – a big beat-up. The interesting thing is that earlier on when they tried to oust Corbyn, they could not because he had inspired so many new members to join up with the Labour Party.

              What will happen now, if those disillusioned new members leave Labour? Few will replace them, and Labour could now find its membership diminished, as well as its voice in Parliament.

      • greywarshark 20.1.2

        'Methinks she (Ruth Smeeth) doth protest too much.'

    • So, is Smeeth disingenuous or stupid? I presume disingenuous, ie she wants Corbyn gone so is happy to smear him using Tory talking points she knows are bullshit. At least we're agreed she deserved to lose her seat.

      • james 20.2.1

        "she knows are bullshit."

        Its a lot more likely that she knows a lot more about the guy than you do.

        You got any evidence that she knows this is bullshit?

        You are delusional – I can see why you like Corbyn so much.

        • Cinny

          Israeli lobby groups do like to try and influence UK politicians not to back a two state solution regarding Palestine.


          Backing a two state solution DOES NOT make a person anti-semitic. Least that's how I see it.

          I think there is much confusion as a result.

        • weka

          James, you're only just back, drop the flaming please.

        • Psycho Milt

          Its a lot more likely that she knows a lot more about the guy than you do.

          No doubt. And yet she says

          …we’re the racist party because of the actions of my leader…

          without specifying those actions (because there aren't any) and without mentioning the actual cause of the propaganda campaign alleging anti-semitism against Corbyn (payback from UK Israel lobbyists for his pro-Palestinian views, and the usual right-wing dirty politics).

          My assumption is that a Labour MP would have to be either disingenuous or stupid to peddle that bullshit, because there isn't any obvious third possibility. Do you see one?

  20. james 21

    LOL – Corbyn says "party’s policies were popular".

    Delusional to the end.

    And its his end – he says he wont lead the party to any more elections – no shit. After this who would want him.

      • James 21.1.1

        There is only one poll that counts – and it’s today.

        it doesn’t seem that the popular policies have resulted in votes – this cant be THAT popular.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha

          You are assuming people voted for policies.

        • weka

          "There is only one poll that counts – and it’s today."

          Irrespective of whether that is true, you mocked Corbyn for saying that Labour's policies were popular. Research shows he is right.

          It doesn't take theoretical physics to see that this was a complex election with many dynamics, some of them unusual. Denying one aspect of that supported by evidence seems like hubris.

  21. ScottGN 22

    The Leader of the Opposition in Ottawa, Conservative Andrew Scheer has just resigned. He was facing a backlash for his performance on the hustings in the recent Federal Election and some in the party had started to leak against him. It’s been revealed he had quietly diverted Cons Party funds to help pay for his 5 kids private school fees in Ottawa.

  22. greywarshark 23

    Thatcher declared 'There's no such thing as society' And set in action policies to ensure that was true.

    Centrist Labour, trying not to step over the line marked where the RW starts, is trying to think of a catchphrase for themselves that dissembles but means 'There is no such thing as labour',

    Replacing physical labour they need to read Terry Pratchett's Discworld book where he outlines the principles and practice of ‘headology*'; a new way of thinking about things. Politics has always been a sideshow, with sleight-of-hand, confusing legerdemain and magical promises, and this has reached a stage of high art. Wise witches developed 'headology' and anything they thought must be better than what is too often grimy drivel we hear from pollies.

    In NZ the Labour Coalition has been trying but people should note that the strain is so much on many of the politicians who try to be good and practical, and care about the country, that they often die of exhaustion and stress-related disease before being able to implement their ideas in full. The death of Michael Savage and Norman Kirk come to mind; now Shane Jones has need of some RandR.

    *Headology. From Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki. Like psychology, but many witches think "psychology" is a bad word, or that it means "having a psychological problem". The practice of headology relies on the principle that what people believe is what is real.Sep 3, 2017
    Headology – Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki – LSpace Wiki
    https://wiki.lspace.org › mediawiki › Headology

    • Ad 23.1

      Corbyn lost because of centrist Labour?

      Politicians can't deliver because they're under strain?

      • greywarshark 23.1.1

        Well that's being charitable I think. Why can't they deliver in your opinion? And Labour doesn’t seem drawn very far to the left very notably either here or in the UK. Just putting a few toes in the water.

  23. greywarshark 24

    On Radionz News:


    Shamabeel Equb advising that new controls on bank businesses will result in higher prices for borrowers. Oh dear. Each year, the uncontrolled buying of homes needed for real people to live in, by investors wanting solid reliable investments has put the prices up by over 10% per annum and out of reach of ordinary people. Heaven forbid that we should stop those inflationary price rises!

    From people who think like shop tills 'ker-ching'; – to having our news collected, sorted, promoted by machines, (and who drives the machines?) Algorithmically turbo-charged journalism


    Two big tragedies now this year in NZ which have a taint of carelessness of government controls in the background requiring compassion from our Prime Minister with soothing words. What is then to be done to put it right, and ensure that there are no more preventable tragedies. Do older commenters remember the motto of company LV Martin 'It's the putting right that counts'? That is an oldie but a goodie, still true.


  24. pat 25

    Emotions running high in UK Labour…high enough to break up the party?

  25. Eco maori 27

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    Dog whilst politics.

    Yes devious people take advantage of vulnerable people like imaginats and refugees the vulnerable need to be protected.

    Its a pity some people got their mahi from other tangata Mana and not their own it shows in their actions.


    That's great good minimiseing waste for courier freighted goods any goods at that.

    Ka kite Ano

  26. Eco maori 28

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Condolences to Tipene Whanau for their loss.

    Toia 250 showed Te local Iwi true feeling of whats going down at that minute.

    I the Kina is sweet and fat from Mahia.

    Ka kite Ano.

  27. Eco maori 29

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    Yes Its good that the Auckland City mission is taking a more thoughtful approach to gifting Kai to the poor Allso using Marae to help with the increaseing numbers of poor. This is not just A Aotearoa phenomenon this is happening all around the world.

    I agree with the Professor from Otago. There is A old saying about

    Te waewae.

    The old Maori Tikanga is koha.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco maori 30

    He tangata He tangata have to keep the pressure on the climate deniers to change the world so Our mokopuna will have a healthy environment and healthy wildlife. We have to become carbon neutral ASAP.

    COP 25: Madrid climate change conference 2019

    The UN climate talks are over for another year – was anything achieved?

    A conference marked by squabbling and deferral yielded little progress despite protests

    Two weeks of talks ended on Sunday afternoon with a formal recognition of the need to bridge the gap between greenhouse gas targets set in 2015 in Paris and scientific advice that says much deeper cuts are needed. Current targets would put the world on track for 3C of warming, which scientists say would ravage coastal cities and destroy agriculture over swathes of the globe.

    UN climate talks end with limited progress on emissions targets

    Few countries came up with new targets at these talks.

    The snail’s pace and low ambition of the talks stood in stark contrast to pleas from activists, who staged a 500,000-strong march through the Spanish capital. Greta Thunberg, the Swedish school striker, said the last year of protests had “achieved nothing” as countries were still failing to bring forward the measures needed

    “The world is screaming out for action but this summit responded with a whisper. The poorest nations are in a sprint for survival, yet many governments have barely moved from the starting blocks. Instead of committing to more ambitious cuts in emissions, countries have argued over technicalities.

    The EU came up with the strongest new plan, finally agreeing a bloc-wide goal of reaching net-zero carbon by 2050. Scores of smaller countries agreed similar long-term targets, but other major emitters held back.

    There was widespread recognition that long-term targets are not enough, and the pressure is now on to forge a short-term climate plan for the next 10 years. The UK will play a leading role

    Ka kite Ano link below.


    • greywarshark 30.1

      Merry Christms Eco Maori. Your range of comments is interesting with great musical enhancements FTTT.

      Meri Kirihimete me te Hape Nū Ia

      Catch this – I want to wish you a merry -Maori- Christmas! Haha.

  29. Eco maori 31

    Kia Ora 1 News

    There is no need to be confused the World has to dump carbon out of our economy's.

    Yes we need to give our Dolphins and Whales respect.

    Ka kite Ano

  30. Eco maori 32

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Ka pai to the Wahine Waka sailing as part of Tuia 250 I miss sailing on Tangaroa.

    Ka kite Ano

  31. Eco maori 33

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    Its sad no concrete laws have been made to limit Global Warming to 1.5 degrees at Cop 25 in Madrid this year.

    New Zealand has to show the world how to quickly change our economy to a clean and Green economy.

    I haven't brought Christmas present for quite a few years now since my children reached their teens.

    Ka kite Ano

  32. Eco maori 34

    I say war is for Idiots why kill other humans just because some people are different. We need to learn to respect all cultures. We need to remember and respect our Tipuna /Ancestors We need to have respect for our Mokopuna / Grandchildren future. I avoided this subject because I know how these people behave. Thanks for publishing this story.

    The climate emergency, military emissions and Greta Thunberg.

    With reference to your report on the COP25 climate talks in Madrid (13 December), we have just returned from Madrid, where we displayed a large banner saying “War causes climate change and climate change causes war”. Thousands of passing delegates expressed a great interest in, and approval of, the message.

    Scientists for Global Responsibility estimates that 6% of global greenhouse gas emissions result from military-related activity – apart from the unfathomable human devastation – so at first sight it appears astonishing that the subject of war does not feature in the COP negotiations; nor are its emissions taken into account when reduction targets are set.

    Perhaps this absence can be explained by the fact that military-related emissions have been excluded by some of the largest polluters from the global north whose delegates, as government officials, will naturally avoid jeopardising lucrative arms and military aid contracts, and whose people do not suffer the catastrophic wars and climatic devastation that directly affect the global south. Evidently we cannot rely on government negotiators to address the subject of war and militarism.

    We have to stop believing that war is inevitable and accept that international climate finance offers better value in both resolving conflict and sustaining the environment than the equivalent spent on military operations

    • I was delighted to see Greta Thunberg announced as Time magazine’s person of the year (Report, 12 December). For me, after so many years of campaigning on environmental issues, it has been a huge relief that now, in 2019, the future of the planet has finally entered the political mainstream – and not a moment too soon.

    This is thanks, in no small part, to the vision and actions of Greta herself, but also to those many others whom she has inspired to take up the fight. The world is realising the scale of the threat posed by every aspect of our destructive exploitation of our lovely planet.

    Now we need to see some real political leadership so that the leading nations of the world, our own included, can ensure a real revolution in practice, to match the fiery ambitions that have been lit up in our hearts by this inspirational Swedish teenager

    Ka kite Ano link below.


  33. greywarshark 35

    Some extracts from Robert D Putnam book Our Kids The American Dream in Crisis.

    Under What Is to be Done after he has explored problems through talking and discussing their formative years with those who have emerged affected by their various backgrounds, either triumphant or okay but still struggling, he covers suggestions under these headings:

    Family Structure, Child Deveopment and Parenting, Schools, Community.

    These are some of the ideas aired.

    Under Community – He refers to what he has found about the importance of neighborhood effects and puts two bullet points – Invest in poor neighbourhoods and, Move poor families to better neighbourhoods which generally has positive results especially on younger kids. (He found some areas that were totally munted, guns everywhere, and people unable and unwilling to help each other, isolated in the safety of their homes.)

    Under Schools – he talks about groups of say 100 students within larger high schools, offering a mixed curriculum of academic and hands-on technical couses for work skills. This to replace the neglected workforce training in the USA. We used to have this system in NZ, but probably along with other lacklustre policies from recent governments, it has been 'let go'.

    Under Child Development and Parenting – Children do better if the parent does not work during their first year, and 'Virtually all other advanced countries' are more supportive to parents than USA. Then quality day-care. Read to your children every day. Help programs from trained professionals for parents as needed.

    Family Structure – 'By some estimates, 60% of births to young, single women are unplanned, and [note] low-income women don't aspire to have more children than more affluent women. Teen pregnancies have dropped dramatically over recent decades.

    But it is felt that young adult women, lacking definite goals and pathways for the future, are more inclined to accept pregnancy as a milestone achieved in their lives, in the absence of a good man to be husband or permanent partner.

    And from an economic point oif view, investing in the young saves large further cost in the future, the young become productive increasing the state income by billions.

    The fact that capitalist states choose not to consider these figures, and to be cheese-paring about supporting and guiding with known good practices, the raising ofhealthy, active and happy poor kids must be an example of mean prejudice, the Scrooge-like mentality. There is the sickness noted in the book Affluenza, and which is illustrated in the real-life story of Grandpa Getty who was refusing to pay a ransom for his kidnapped grandson, even when they cut off his ear to show they meant business. A torture to the body, but also to the heart to think that no-one loved or cared about him. The story of his mother's campaign to save him was told in the film –

    All the Money in the World is a 2017 crime thriller film directed by Ridley Scott and written by David Scarpa, based on John Pearson's 1995 book Painfully Rich: The Outrageous Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Heirs of J. Paul Getty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Money_in_the_World

    Q. How did J. Paul Getty die? A. Heart failure!

    How did he make his money. By hard work, careful money management, and an abstemious life. Hah.

    J. Paul Getty took the reins of Getty Oil along with many other businesses that went with it when his father died in 1930. … J. Paul Getty became a billionaire after negotiating a series of oil leases with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait starting in 1949. He soon was being widely reported as the richest man alive.

    Ordinary good people who have the security of a job and prospects, have to turn to give some time to help others to have the opportunities they have. And because of the economic multiplier effect, the more people working, trading, enjoying life, the more the money flows around, the more work there is, and the more enjoyment and community. Let's keep at it.

  34. Eco maori 36

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    A tornado in Kirikiriroa global warming whanau.

    Ron I see a lot of that.

    shon – – – – – – – – – – – – – – anatokai.

    Ka kite Ano

  35. Eco maori 37

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That's a rip off tipical pakiha ripping Tangata Whenua off.

    $9 million.

    Rua kenana was treated badly by the Crown just like most Tangata Whenua. Some think they got treated fairly but next minute the crown is pulling the rug out from under our feet or our mokopuna future.

    Ka pai Shane.

    Ka kite Ano

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