Open mike 14/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 14th, 2019 - 245 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

245 comments on “Open mike 14/09/2019 ”

  1. The Chairman 1

    IMO, failing to answer the question (see link below) isn't doing Jacinda or the Labour Party any favours. Talk about digging a deeper hole.

    Henry Cooke states (in link below) "there is enough grey here to make Ardern lose a seriously large amount of trust"

    Duncan Garner states:

    Just six months ago, off the back of the tragic Christchurch mosque massacre, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern morphed into something resembling Mother Teresa, complete in her hijab.

    She could do no wrong as she stood by, comforted, and cradled those left behind. Even her harshest critics said take a bow Prime Minister – it was Ardern at her best. Empathy in spades. Her re-election guaranteed.

    But how the mighty fall, and fall fast. Empathy must be genuine and empathy must be more than a triumph of marketing and certainly more than a smile. Actions have to follow.

    But in her case, they rarely do.

    Ardern has squandered a massive lead – like a racing car driver a lap ahead crashing into the side wall. I simply can't say with certainty if Ardern is going to walk away from this mass pile up.

    I can't rule out that she may be forced to resign as Prime Minister – and if you think that's a bit far-fetched then consider this – the parliamentary press gallery will now hunt and haunt her. They will not leave a stone unturned looking for the document, the person, the moment that proves she's not telling the truth.

    Ardern and Grant Robertson do appear to be hiding something, otherwise known as the truth.

    Robertson won't say what he knew. How cagey. How convenient. It's he that heads the Ardern protection racquet. Many are saying he's known for weeks and I find it impossible to believe he didn't tell the PM. He's not that incompetent.

    But let's say all her staff had heard it but didn't pass it on to her. They should be fired, as should Robertson. The list goes on.

    If Jacinda really didn't know anything, then she should have, that could mean "resign".

    If she did and covered it up, also grounds to resign.

    Check out the poll result in the Duncan Garner's piece (link above).

    Jacinda helped Labour win the last election, it seems she’ll now be the one that will cost them the next. And IMO this all comes down to Labour failing to own their shit.

    Those that wish to defend Labour on this, don't bother as I don't care what you think. You lot would defend her eating babies. Nevertheless, you lot need to get out of your echo chamber and start to comprehend what the wider public think about this and how your ongoing defense of Labour (regardless the issue) comes across.

    • RosieLee 1.1

      Since when was Garner a reasoned and intelligent political analyst?

      • weka 1.1.1

        Yep. There's plenty to criticise Labour for without having to resort to Garner's reckons.

        • The Chairman

          Hi weka.

          Can you point me to the Greens take on this, thanks.

          • weka

            I haven't been following closely. Twitter is probably the best place to look, the various MP accounts.

            • The Chairman

              I'll check it out, thanks.

              No press release from them? Interested to know their stance.

              It wouldn't be that they are scared to rock the boat on this one would it?

              One would have expected them to be sticking up for the victims.

              Perhaps no press release from the Greens helps explain why the victims turned to National for help and not the Greens? What do you think?

              • weka

                I gather that they have had contact, but I don't know the details. What do I think? I think you are shit stirring. Go do the actual mahi on what the Greens' position is, instead of making shit up about them on TS (and no, you framing that as asking disingenous questions doesn't make me think any differently of what you are doing).

                • The Chairman

                  The questions were legit. Perhaps it's because they were rather straightforward it may have (guessing here) altered your judgement of them?

                  There is something for you to self reflect on.

                  [away you go the rest of the weekend. When you come back, try and remember not to tell me what to do, or bait moderation. Bans will increase exponentially from now on – weka]

                  • The Al1en

                    Questioning the perception of and second guessing a moderator.

                    That's gonna end well. lol

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      He seemed pretty reasonable from were I am sitting, the only unreasonable bit was where he got kicked off.
                      I mean this is open mike after all and not a specific piece written by a moderator, in that case then I guess you could argue that he had over stepped that mark.

                    • Incognito []

                      FYI, a moderator and an author are not the same thing. Authors can moderate their own posts but not others. A moderator can moderate all posts, including OM and DR, and do a few other things an author can’t do. What moderators generally do is to try moderate behaviour, not specific content, unless it is defamatory and could put the site at risk, or unless it incites violence, for example. It is clearly explained in the Policy ( and every OM states this:

                      Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step up to the mike …

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      @ Incognito Yeah I know all that, I was just saying that open mike has the perception of being…well more open.

                      And as I said TC's comments never seemed to me to have crossed into 'bad behaviour'.

                    • Incognito []

                      My comment was not just for you 😉

                      BTW, moderators are actually Editors using WordPress nomenclature.

                      Yes, OM is generally more open but the same principles apply. For example, stifling debate, shit stirring, wasting moderators’ time, putting others off from commenting and engaging, telling authors what to write, attributing ulterior motives to other commenters, putting words in people’s mouths, trolling, et cetera, are all no-no’s as they do tend to spill over to other posts and generally create an environment on this site that’s less welcoming and not conducive to robust debate of issues and topics. Given that there’s no OP today most commenters gravitate to OM by default, and thus the ‘rules of engagement’ are (slightly) adapted to reflect this.

                      FWIW, I disagree with you on TC’s behaviour and his commenting rights will become more (severely) restricted if he doesn’t change is behaviour. He’s been warned so many times by more than one moderator. I have not seen a change and I doubt it will be coming, which is ironic given that he always demands change from others. Anyway, I should not be discussing TC with you particularly when he’s been banned till Monday. The reason I did go as far as I did was to clarify things.

                    • The Al1en

                      Reckon it was the kicking off bit what done it.

                    • Incognito []

                      No, it wasn’t. Please read Weka’s notes and understand that it wasn’t a single comment but a behavioural pattern. Rather than putting up with the red flag of distraction he’s been given the weekend off, which is hardly the end of the world as we know it.

                      Edit: I had this written over an hour ago but dinner …

                      I just like to add this too: people in the passenger seat don’t usually pay as much or the same attention to the road and traffic as the driver. I’d suggest that it is analogous to readers/commenters and moderators here.

                    • weka

                      Patterns of behaviour over long periods of time often look different to moderators than people on the front end. We also see and can look up stuff that others can't. Some days Open Mike will be looser, other days it won't. Incognito explained some of this.

                      There are some pretty basic rules: don't waste moderator time, don't have a go at authors and moderators. I think people often fail to understand that how often those take precedence over people's ability to comment here. And honestly, after years of someone's behaviour, it just gets tedious.

                      Today I saw a number of things kicking off that needed nipping in the bud, on top of a week of debate that needed more moderation than usual. When I'm moderating, I'm not going to have someone with a long history of causing problems here having a go at me, because it makes my moderation job harder and it lessens my enjoyment as a commenter.

                      There's also the fact that his debate style pisses a lot of people off. That in and of itself isn't a bannable offense, but he appears to not only not care but actively asserts his right to be like he is with little regard for how that affects the community. Others have commented on concern trolling, passive aggressive questions and so on. It's all very familiar. Usually I will give people warnings before banning but when it's someone who does this repeatedly and fails to learn from moderation, I can't be bothered.

                    • lprent []

                      I’d also point out that there are some kinds of comments that don’t get warnings before banning. In particular…

                      1. threats of violence – generally these will be permanent. r0b instituted that one a long time ago. Works well.
                      2. Deliberately pushing false facts and false news. I get particularly annoyed with assertions made about linked or referenced articles which, when I read them, don’t even come close to supporting the assertions. I did several bans on those over the last week with my standard 3 month bans.
                      3. Generally having a go at moderators or authors. Not because of what they write or even what they did – but because they are working and some lazy critics think that they can potshot them. If you think that a moderator is going over the top, just highlight it without personality attacks or rancour. Doing anything more is my task
                    • The Al1en

                      With the comment tree as it is, I don't know whether @Incognito's reply is for me, or not, but if so, I get what you're saying, but in context of Thornton's comment to mine

                      He seemed pretty reasonable from were I am sitting, the only unreasonable bit was where he got kicked off

                      and from Weka's moderation notes

                      try and remember not to tell me what to do, or bait moderation

                      I will add that also part of my decision is to give the community a better commenting space over the weekend

                      Chaiman acting out in the end certainly looked, coupled with the ongoing pattern, like a bit of the Camel's back breaker, which led me to make my observation, correct or otherwise.

                    • Incognito []

                      Yes, my comment @ 8:05 PM was a reply to yours @ 6:24 PM – one of the ‘perks’ of being a moderator is that one can reply directly to any comment in the back-end even when the reply buttons have run out at the front-end.

                      My comment was aimed at specifically addressing your question (or assumption?) that it was TC’s first comment of the day on OM @ 1 “what done it”. It wasn’t, as I said, but if he hadn’t been given the weekend pass I would have taken him to task on and about his last paragraph @ 1; it epitomises TC’s MO here on TS.

                      BTW, there’s nothing wrong with criticism of any party in the coalition Government, be it NZLP, NZF, or the GP. Moderation is not censorship despite the protestations of some who usually exhibit more behavioural flaws leading to long or even permanent banning.

                    • weka

                      I think the 'kicking off' refers to the comment that has my moderation note in it.

                    • The Al1en

                      Actually @weka, it wasn't your comment (which came later than my post), but a misread on my part when skim reading Adrian's post "the only unreasonable bit was where he got kicked off." – I read it as when he kicked off.
                      The kick off as I saw it, was not the first post of the day, but that in #comment-1654915

                      Either way, whether it was the continuing pattern, as stated by @Incognito that done it, or a combination of it and and a kick off, it probably doesn't warrant spending more time on a job done well.

                    • weka []

                      I think we’re talking about the same comment (not his first comment but his last). This was TC ‘kicking off’: (my comment is in bold under his in the same comment).

                    • The Al1en

                      Yep, that's the one I thought they'd blown it on.

                  • weka

                    no, I just think speculating like that when you know absolutely nothing about it is not helpful in this situation.

                  • weka

                    mod note for you. I will add that also part of my decision is to give the community a better commenting space over the weekend given the nature of the main topic of discussion.

                    You've been told this so many times I doubt it will make any difference this time, but I live in hope and at least I've made it clear that also at issue here is a pattern of your behaviour. The debate points about Garner and Labour were not a problem, you being a patronising git is. You might want to think about how not to cross that line.

                  • Adrian Thornton

                    Here we go again…the hammer of Thor cracks down on any dissent from the ranks…no matter how trivial, the message is clear.

                    • weka

                      Maybe more Valkyrie than Thor if we're talking MCU.

                    • McFlock

                      I'm not sure incessant passive-aggressive questioning counts as "dissent", anyway.

                      From roughly looking at TC's line of questioning, he could have written "I think the Greens should be publicly criticising Labour's handling of this, because that would signal how important it is that the governing party be seen to be following through on its rhetoric supporting sexual assault survivors. If that infuriates the Labour caucus more than the problems in their own party, they don't deserve to be in government".

                      At least it's a clear position to debate, and I'm not entirely sure I disagree with it. But man, the delivery TC actually chose was just a turd.

                    • In Vino

                      Wrong, Adrian. Chairman is not just dissent – he is a long-term concern troll who has blown his own cover so many times that most long-term commenters here are aware of him. To my mind he blows his own cover a number of times later on this thread, but one gets tired of pointing it out..

                      I think weka has a pretty good understanding of the Chairman by now.

                      For me, it is disappointing but understandable that new commenters on this site get sucked in to responding in all seriousness to The Chairman's disingenuous 'trying to help the left'. That is the last thing the Chairman is really trying to do – he is a troll. That opinion is derived from years of experience.

                      He will accuse you of 'playing the man' if you point out his trolling, but all he ever does is 'play' (ie, attack) the Left parties (Labour and Green).

      • The Chairman 1.1.2

        “Since when was Garner a reasoned and intelligent political analyst?”

        He's not the best, but now and then he gets it right. And in this instant he has some valid points.

        • weka

          He's not a friend of women dealing with the politics of sexual assault or rape culture. The bit you quote is him bashing Labour, and using the sexual assault of a young woman to do that. It's not just him being not the best, it's him being a hack with no real regard for vulnerable people. That makes him part of the same set of dynamics as the people in Labour who so badly handled the allegations. ie. he's part of the problem.

          If you want to read a take on Ardern's social capital in this context that doesn't perpetuate rape culture and that takes the wellbeing of vulnerable people into account, have a look at Alison Mau's article in the Guardian yesterday.

          • The Chairman

            The bit you quote is him bashing Labour…

            Bashing Labour? More like pointing out the damage Labour have done to themselves in the mishandling of this. Which even Jacinda has admitted was poorly handled (and no that is not an exact quote).

            Why won't Jacinda and Grant answer the questions as most reasonable people expect a transparent Government to do?

            They come across as if they are covering up. And apart from the support of a few defenders on here, it's not looking good for them out in the real world.

            • weka

              As far as I can tell Garner is having a go at Labour and using sexual assault of actual people to do that. Like I said, there are plenty of people who are skilled in addressing the politics of rape culture to use as references here, rather than picking the journo who is part of the rape culture problem.

              Think of it this way. For Garner the important issue here is to pull Labour down. It's not to improve the lives of the people assaulted and bullied, and it's not to help make changes to organisations in NZ (including Labour) so that less rape and bullying happens. I'd say he is making those things worse. Part of that is because he thinks he knows best and won't listen to others, another part is he just has regressive ideas about vulnerability, justice and political change. Mostly I think he just doesn't give a shit and will do whatever he wants with his substantial political power to promote his own politics.

              • The Chairman

                “As far as I can tell Garner is having a go at Labour and using sexual assault of actual people to do that.”

                Can you point out to me the bit I highlighted suggests that to you?

                I can't speak for him but what I highlighted (the bit I posted) it wasn't my intention.

                • weka

                  The whole thing. Clue here is zero attention to the complainants or the issue of how to change rape culture. It's just a call for JA's resignation as PM. Blatant af.

    • Thank you for your concern.

      • In Vino 1.2.1

        Yes, Such concern! The Chairman's concern is epic, and shines forth in the darkness like a beacon for all to behold.., not.

        Actually, the Chairman’s' business as usual.

        • The Chairman

          I see you are still playing the man In Vino.

          Thanks for highlighting the party defenders MO.

          • In Vino

            More like you are pushing anti-Labour propaganda as usual, ad Infinitum. Any criticism for it, you call 'playing the man’.

            Please try not to be so tedious, and desist from playing the party!

            • weka

              Playing the party, that's good. Too many people can't see the difference between critiquing Labour and using this situation to take them down.

            • The Chairman

              Playing the man it twas. And I see you are still at it.

              All business as usual from you.

    • "…the Ardern protection racquet."

      I know Garner thinks politics is a kind of sports match, but does he really think it's played with racquets?

    • AB 1.4

      This is all exceedingly simple and doesn't deserve 1% of the words expended on it.

      Labour handled it badly. It appears it is actually quite difficult to handle these things well. National and its sub-literate acolytes in the media have jumped opportunistically all over it . Their aim is to damage Ardern to help them claw back into power. Once in power they will resume their disguting economic sadism. Exactly what you would expect. Sad and pathetic little country doing the same sh*t all over again.

      • The Chairman 1.4.1

        It appears it is actually quite difficult to handle these things well.

        Yet, now that it has blown up on them, they claim it will be handled. If only they did that from the get go they wouldn’t have this problem.

        In politics, if you own a problem from the get go it tends to kill the story fast. Whereas, if you down play it and try to cover it up it festers and blows up becoming a far larger problem.

        This is a prime example of that.

        • KJT

          Very difficult if someone will not make a complaint. Noting I entirely understand why many people don't,

          Certainly all I could do at work, is support them to go to HR, Rape crisis and/or the police.

          We have had enough problems dealing fairly with a recent episode of extended bullying, at work.

          What baffles me is why, given Paula Bennetts track record, why anyone would go to her for resolution. You are likely to have your name blazened all over the media, if it suits her.

        • Grafton Gully

          No physical contact with others in your workplace, be super alert to non-physical exchanges, recording to minimise risk. Trust no-one, confess and apologise readily, be ready to cut losses, pay out and run.

      • weka 1.4.2

        I agree AB. It's not that hard to understand what is going on now and Labour fucking up doesn't excuse National's behaviour at all.

        In terms of handling these things, they're always difficult, but not that difficult for people with the relevant skills. One of Labour's big mistakes here has been not recognising that they needed expert, outside help. What stopped them from recognising that is also an issue. There are people who know how to work through issues like this and Labour failed to find them.

      • cleangreen 1.4.3

        Yes AB,

        With a probable bit of political/financial help from George Soros probably, with his known involvement in other foriegn infuence 'sexual smear campaign' in (Judge Brett Kavenough's US nomination)

        And known of both funding the Me Too movement and having a large investment in voting electronic systems world wide.

        So there is much more seething under the surface here than just the rampant attack dogs of the NZ Media.

        • Sacha

          Soros? Don't forget the chemtrails.

        • phillip ure

          @ cleangreen..

          heh..!..that's funny..

 yr story george soros is pouring money into getting the tories re-elected here in nz..?

          you clearly know a lot about this – so perhaps you could clarify something for me..

          'cos my understanding is that soros funds (for want of better words) 'lefty'//environmental causes..

          so i am having difficulties understanding yr claims he is doing just the opposite..?

          is it because he is jewish..?…why is his money 'dark money'..?

          and what on earth is wrong with funding me-too and opposition to that toe-rag kavanaugh to the supreme court..? you clarify just what is 'wrong' with/about that..?

          with yr chosen moniker/and what you are saying/linking to/advocating – you are coming across here (to me) as a modern member of that (unfortunate) long association of the environmental-movement with racist-facism/anti-semitism..?

          is this the case..?

          are you that modern iteration..?..of that phenomenon..?

      • OnceWasTim 1.4.4


        I find it all perfectly believable that Jacinda did not know.

        Despite the fact that she's all that we've come to believe of her (compassionate and caring, empathetic and all the kaka – WHICH SHE IS) – she's certainly NOT as street-wise, or indeed feral, as a number of those in the opposition trying to take political advantage of it all.

        And when you look at the hypocrisy of an opposition person leading the charge (notwithstanding the political incorrectness of mentioning "truck stop gals" and pony tail pullers and Todds and members from the far north) – none of all that makes any of this OK.

        Pots and Kettles isn't really something that is going to wash in this instance.

        Unfortunately, Jacinda (hopefully together with her most trusted) has some serious 'learnings' to avail herself of going forward. And of course, there are going to be a number of people who manage to slip out of all this unscathed with reputations intact.

        This morning's +Hr== the Nayshun, I ekshully found quite funny in a black sort of way – with Paula taking the high ground.

        Oh how we've fallen

        • Herodotus

          Our PM I agree was told little if anything.

          which then goes to why was this kept from here “protecting her”?

          and if so who kept if from her . As those who may have then have not taken lessons from history . As now it leaves a void that many are willing to fill, and those protecting Labour causing self harm by being drawn into a micro agreement and losing perspective of the greater picture.

          As an aside it does give parents a great opportunity to discuss what to do if you see or are subjected to unacceptable behaviour.

          Feel so sorry for those innocent who are now the focal point of this, hopefully they have great friends and parents.

          [Corrected typo in user name]

        • Stuart Munro.

          I'm not sure it's all naivete or the like – the role of the PM is fairly busy at the best of times, and trusting in your party mechanisms is a way of not gratuitously buying trouble. Once the storm dies down I expect she'll sort anything that remains to be sorted with her usual attention to detail.

      • mpledger 1.4.5

        It's certainly deflected from National's spanking by the advertising standards authority.

        No wonder Bennet was out there stirring the pot.

      • Anne 1.4.6

        Sad and pathetic little country doing the same sh*t all over again.

        I concur AB

      • greywarshark 1.4.7

        AB You are taking all the fun out of dissecting this whole matter word by word and examining it, who said, or was said to have said it, how and whether it was justified, and how unfair, and it was disgraceful, which most people agree on, but even that is open for discussion. And there is determined ignorance on why the victims didn't go to the police. This can run on for another week, with nothing more learned than the summary you have presented.

        It is far more important than looking at how this country treats people who have come here thinking we are a civilised, well-run and people-oriented kindly democracy. A terrible shooting event with 50 people dead and many with lasting injuries. A big show we make of compassion and assistance. Now its BAU and the bereft parents are to be left without close family to help support them and to help raise their children. They are to be given the Oliver gruel that has been the alternative to the death wish that RW feel about solo parents and the impoverished and needy in general. And probably the perpetrators of the so-called charity are upstanding members of some so-called religion.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.5

      @ Chairman "you lot need to get out of your echo chamber and start to comprehend what the wider public think about this and how your ongoing defense of Labour (regardless the issue) comes across."

      That is exactly right, I think that most of these people don't fully understand that Labour NZ has long lost the working classes as a voting block, as well as huge chunks of students the poor and working poor, they seem to imagine 'hold the centre steady' is a winning formula (morality and ethic's play a very secondary part in their political strategies).

      Whats that got to do with this issue you might ask?, it has everything to do with it. Since Labour made the move to liberalism, sold it's ethical and morals positions on the alter of the ideal of free markets, free trade, and the commodification of every part of human existence (and the existence of the planet as it turns out) and has also brought with it the political matra of win at all and any cost, and this mantra is vigorously defended by all the Labour sycophant's on this forum.

      So in my view, what has been displayed to us all this week, is a political party and it's members instinctively acting in defense of their party and it's electability going forward, rather than instinctively acting on what is right and is ethical, but of course we can't blame just these few individuals, they are only doing what was expected of them, no this problem is one far deeper and far more systemic and can easily be traced back to it's core root.. an unethical ideology that guides Labours every move and every breath.

      • greywarshark 1.5.1

        Nice to discuss with you Adrian. I don't get the chance of that much here. Looking to change I am, rather than just a part restoration of old Labour principles.

        My latest idea for how to create leverage to do that, is to use the Lysistrata technique. Seeing sex and sex play is so important to the men in both political parties, an application of passive-aggressive force by women incensed by the casual way that the men have viewed the violation of respect and rules of behaviour is particularly appropriate.

        And let's try to get new internal rules and public legislation that would deal with sexual education and discussion at teenage level, personal pride and esteem, and a special Court, similar to the Family Court, that aims to deal effectively to the agreement of all, with rape, sexual grooming etc.

        • Adrian Thornton

          I think sex is pretty high on the list for most men..sadly mine too.

          I had never heard of Lysistrata, don't know how that one passed me by, so thanks, I am sure we will have a copy in the shop here somewhere. I am going put one on the stack next to the bed.

          Sex and sexuality is a huge and very dense topic today, there are just so many different things that are at play now and all at the same time, it would take some serious thought and time to untangle the conflicting strands. I have thought about it a bit of course, but probably not enough to offer a worthwhile comment at the moment sorry.

          "Looking to change I am, rather than just a part restoration of old Labour principles" I am with you there..I have been saying to my friends for years that we should co-opt the term conservative from the right, to me many of the principles of the Left are conservative in a good way, stable local communities built around the belief (and in action) that homes and houses are a human right and not a tradable commodity springs to mind for a start. A living wage for all workers of course, and to me is not a radical Left proposition, no it is morally and ethically just a right that all workers should be entitled to without question, what is radical is workers living NOT on a living wage, so in other words we need to turn these conversations on their head, make what is obviously right and just the socially conservative position, and put the opponents of what is right and just for all on the fringes, make them the radical outsiders, which in a just society they would be.

        • Incognito

          My latest idea for how to create leverage to do that, is to use the Lysistrata technique. [my bold]

          I respectfully disagree. It is not about sex as such but about power and being in control. In my view, sex or withholding sex should not be used to wrestle back power and control, or as a pawn in a political or personal battle for that matter.

          • greywarshark

            It would be effective in making those in power look ridiculous, and how things look is what they are concerned about.

            It's just jargon to talk about sex and power as being separate in this matter. With an older person, or a middle-aged one, the power comes first and they then indulge themselves with sexual forays of some sort. With a same-age person then the sex can come first, that youthful urge to participate, and power to make it happen follows.

            • Incognito

              Sex is probably one of the most confusing words and concepts around. It may make you feel good and good about yourself. It may make you feel good about your partner(s). It may make you feel as one with somebody else. Or it may achieve none of those and even the opposite rather. It is all sex and yet it is all different apart from some of the ‘mechanics’ (physical aspects and even physiological responses). To discuss the entanglement of power and sex in terms of stereotypes easily leads to banalities and thus is futile IMO; I don’t think TS is the place to do it.

              On a slightly related note, I just read blogpost by Frank Macskasy, which I thought was very good.


      • MickeyBoyle 1.5.2

        I agree, it seems to be more about protecting brand Labour than taking care of the victim. Hopefully going forward, situations like this are treated with more urgency and respect for the victims. Especially to insure people who have been forced to suffer at the hands of assholes, feel more open in coming forward and treated with more dignity. I smell a cover up, it's the same smell many of us got when National covered up Todd Barclay and the Jamie Lee Ross's escapade. How sad is that.

      • phillip ure 1.5.3

        wot adrian said..

        i had a civilised conversation with a labour true-believer – on twitter..

        and i asked them to define what they think the labor party is now..(this after me damning the neoliberal-incrementalism they have practised post-douglas..)

        they said labour is 'moderate' – 'pragmatic'..

        i found that to be quite dismaying..

        as they had just defended labor rejecting 39 of the 42 recommendations of the welfare reform group..(and it is worth noting that of those three 'reforms' accepted by this govt – two of them don't kick in until next yr..labour again with the delayed-gratification thing they do..with their incrementalist-'reforms'…f.f.s..!..)

        t5he other excuse they proffered was that the gummint can't do real reforms – because the tory gummint that follows will just roll them back..

        i tried to point out that nz does not have a history of that..

        (and to my mind – the worst/most-telling example of this was clark (and now ardern) not rolling back shipley/richardsons' savaging of the welfare state..which has brought us to our poverty-wracked nation – with homeless peopling the streets of most towns..)

        this conversation with that labour true-believer – confirmed for me all the disappointments to be had from neoliberal-incrementalism..

        that poxy ideology that so has the modern labour party in its' grip..

        • The Al1en

          Slagging off a pragmatic, incremental labour party is one thing, but it’s just noise unless you can offer up a credible alternative, addressing the factors that the left of labour green party only pulls 6% and those far out on the nutty fringes less than 1% if anything at all. Where are the voters coming from?

    • Hongi Ika 1.6

      Pulla Benefit, NZ Herald, Mike Horeskin and the Natzi's going AWOL over the Sex Case in Wellington, anyone would think Jacinda had been [deleted – going too far and is poor taste] ?

  2. Wayne 2

    The Chairman,

    A bit harsh to put that up as the first item of the day. It looks like gloating.

    In any event, it is too soon to tell. Sure the gloss might have worn off a bit. But things will move on.

    The future fortunes of the PM will mostly depend on what she does from hereon out.

    There is no doubt the "year of delivery" has looked weak. Lots of people, in general conversation, talk about the PM talking a good game but failing to follow through.

    The government has managed to give the impression of setting lofty goals but have no system in place that actually monitors performance and progress. That can't literally be true, the public service has systems to help novice ministers. Though that is part of the problem. After two years too many of them look like novices. I was of the view that a minister should be able to "get" the job after about six months or so.

    I reckon the next 6 to 9 months will be crucial. The government needs to have solid runs on the board by June next year, in a way that the public will generally accept.

    • vto 2.1

      It will be a shame Wayne, because the country needs to increase the lot of the downtrodden and underpaid, and if your lot get re-elected that wont happen and the ugliness between societal cohorts will intensify.

      Mind you, re-electing your lot will line up with the ugliness under Trump, Boris, and the general ugliness of the aussie voter

      • The Chairman 2.1.1

        Dead right, vtoyes

      • MickeyBoyle 2.1.2

        Poverty and hardship has increasedunder this current government @vto. You're right National will not improve the situation. But the left must also realize that neoliberalism and trying to hold the centre ground wont either. We need transformational real change.

    • Pat 2.2

      "That can't literally be true, the public service has systems to help novice ministers. "

      That would be the same public service that has diminished to the point it is incapable of performing its core functions would it?

      • Wayne 2.2.1

        The core public service in Wellington, especially at the senior levels, is very capable. I see all the same people who were advising National are now advising Labour. That is UI see them on TV and see their names regularly reference. The people who are in the middle and lower levels of the core public service are also very capable.

        The problems are not with the public service, but with the people who politically direct them.

        • Stuart Munro.

          "the same people who were advising National are now advising Labour"

          Goes a long way to explaining the areas that are not progressing satisfactorily.

        • OnceWasTim

          ^^^^ THAT is really fucking funny @ Wayne. From your perspective, I bet it is!

          From the public's perspective, it's a completely different matter. (Btw, we probably have a difference of opinion as to what is the 'CORE' public service.

          Reform can't come soon enough – as inevitably it will (which is probably what you're afraid of)

    • The Chairman 2.3

      A bit harsh to put that up as the first item of the day. It looks like gloating.

      Rubbish, Wayne. You are simply playing the man. I'm not gloating. I'm highlighting Labour's failure to genuinely address this. I don't want this to cost Labour the election putting your lot back into power.

      Instead of owing their shit, they are continuing to fail to own it and take action. Which is costing them voter trust and confidence.

      Voters don't tend to support a party they no longer trust.

      Once again, Jacinda is talking big claiming action is being taken, yet she won't name who mislead/misinformed her (or failed to inform her) and as a result their heads haven't rolled. That (heads rolling or accountability being shown) is the sort of action people are expecting. Instead, we are going to have another inquiry, dragging the matter out in the hope it will blow over. No doubt announced and in the distraction of the world cup.

      This all stems from Labour's failure to take action in the first place. Moreover, their undermining and denial of the complaints.

      Anybody who dares states this comes under attack, which is theirs and their defenders form/MO, regardless of what the criticism being laid is about.

    • KJT 2.4

      The public service, "managers" hand picked by National?

    • KJT 2.5

      Not like the gloating from National supporters at the moment.

      Especially the nauseating fake concern for sex abuse victims from Paula Bennett, and a whole lot of sycophant's. Which have consistently proved they has as much concern for others, as flatfish.

    • greywarshark 2.6

      It was good to read your reasoned comment Wayne.

  3. Rapunzel 3

    As someone new to posting on TS I thank posters for a few questions and answers I read from last night. From what seemed to be a fairly well informed opinion from Incognito, and while not all information would make anyone "comfortable" it at least raised points that tell more than the shrieking and often misleading headline and jumbled stories.

    I'm just a NZer trying to make sense of it all, not one media story was cohesive enough during the week for me to settle on what my "opinion" would be, most of them offered confused conflations of more than one event.

    There are things that need to "fixed" re the handling of this but now after reasoned debate from some on here I'm happy to wait for the QC's rulings, especially given the complainants will contribute to the conditions and scope of the inquiry.

    • I think that this is good summary from Toby Manhire at The Spinoff: On the Labour Party crisis and Jacinda Ardern

      One of the very few positive things to come out of a hideous week in New Zealand politics has been the sieving-out of the blinkered, partisan zealots. On one side, those who are ready to conjure up the wildest of potions to excuse the inexcusable because it’s their team. On the other, the troglodytes who’ve made sport of diminishing everything around the MeToo movement, but suddenly care about allegations of sexual assault because it suits their ideological stripes.

      There have been people from both sides of politics who have shown that ideology and tribalism is still rife in politics.

      I have not spoken to the prime minister directly about it, but I did have at least half a dozen conversations with the prime minister’s chief press secretary on Sunday. Based on those conversations, I do not believe that he or the prime minister had heard Sarah’s story before, or believed that any of those in the complaint process had alleged they’d been sexually assaulted.

      That doesn’t mean those around the prime minister were ignorant to the talk that had for some time been swirling around the staffer, who took the decision to resign on Thursday. It doesn’t mean senior people in the party had not been told about his allegedly odious behaviour. They may say they couldn’t do anything about hearsay and rumour; if so that’s clearly not enough.

      And while I’m as certain as I could be that the prime minister didn’t know Sarah’s story, I don’t for a second think Ardern is blameless. I’ve been calling her the prime minister, but she’s also the leader of the Labour Party, and that’s a party where a poison has clearly seeped in – within Young Labour especially, unequivocally and horribly. We knew already about the Summer Camp scandal; The Spinoff has been contacted over the last few days with other stories that would chill you to the bone.

      That’s on Jacinda Ardern, as the leader of the party, to sort out.

      The Labour Party has let Ardern down. As leader he has to take some of the responsibility. And it's now up to her to repair as much damage as possible, and she needs to be seen to be doing this. If it appears that Labour are still trying to hide uncomfortable truths I doubt that Ardern will survive as PM after next yer's election (but as TRP noted yesterday, Bridges and National aren't looking great as alternatives).

      • Rapunzel 3.1.1

        I guess NZ, or I hope they will, see who's hiding what. I am a bit curious as to what some of National's own MPs think of how PB has presented this, or tried to. It's likely that given their own experiences and inside knowledge that not all are comfortable that this type of politicking will be useful to them next year.

      • Rapunzel 3.1.2

        I went to read today's Spinoff story but the fact they persist with an graphic that is quite graphic in its "imagery" actually just told me that the amount of viewer traffic they have had from following the line they have is that all they intend to do is milk it, and the victims, for as much and as long as they can.

    • The Chairman 3.2

      I'm happy to wait for the QC's rulings

      Evidently, due to Jacinda's inaction we have no choice but to wait.

      • Sacha 3.2.1

        Evidently, due to Jacinda's inaction we have no choice but to wait.

        Damn her lack of magical powers, sir!

        • The Chairman

          More like lack of leadership and ability to hold people to account in a timely fashion.

          • Sacha

            The party does not report to her. I expect consequences for some of her own office's senior managers but I guess that may take some negotiating. No magic wand.

      • Rapunzel 3.2.2

        The QC was appointed 3-5 weeks ago for a reason, the scope of that has been altered and I want to see it my position on that won't change, that's how I assess things. The only thing that is "evident" to me is that some people took the choice or chance to repeat what they were told, I don't see that as sound and that's my choice..

        • The Chairman

          The QC was appointed 3-5 weeks ago for a reason…

          Still far too late.

          the scope of that has been altered…

          Yes, because the issue was allowed to fester and has now become critical for Labour.

          This all could have been avoided if dealt with properly from the get got.

          • Rapunzel

            Even if it had been done properly, given that no one has facts – in regard to employment matters and no charges being laid – that goes no way into getting such matters handles across NZ, hopefully ay failures will be used to set standards for that. I think every lesson or challenge is an opportunity, personally I was advantaged employment-wise from dealing with a failure simply by being more interested in why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. This failure is at least a step towards that that has not come in any visible way from the National Party and if you think the Labour Party mishandled this so did I believe Paula Bennett, she had a lesser interest in the "victim" than she did politicking.

            • The Chairman

              As far as I'm aware no charges have been laid to date.

              Jacinda has admitted the party has work to do and that has been something she says the party has had to acknowledge over the past year.

              Slow learners perhaps?

              • Rapunzel

                Non-learners are worse.

                • The Chairman


                  The outcome of the QC inquiry and actions taken from there will show us how much they have learned.

              • lprent

                Slow learners perhaps?

                Or perhaps government ministers have other things to do than clean up another Young Labour mess perhaps? Things that we pay them to do.

                The thing that annoys me on this is that there was literally nothing substantive that the Labour party could have done apart from advising the people concerned to go to the police or lay a complaint with the employer if it had be done as part of the work.

                They are about as ineffectual as you are in coming up with suggestions about what could be done. There is a reason for that – no-one wanted to take the avenues that were available to do something effective.

                Yet, there is no apparent discussion about why the police aren’t trusted to deal with this kind of problem. They’re the ones tasked to do so.

                • The Chairman

                  Or perhaps government ministers have other things to do than clean up young labour messes perhaps?

                  Yet, here they are trying to play clean up.

                • Dennis Frank

                  "The thing that annoys me on this is that there was literally nothing substantive that the Labour party could have done apart from advising the people concerned to go to the police or lay a complaint with the employer if it had be done as part of the work."

                  That was my first reaction, but the Spinoff's report of Sarah's testimony made me realise the key issue is the failure of the investigating panel to either acknowledge or report the complaints of sexual assault.

                  If the Labour Council had been informed of these, I suspect it would have produced a different decision. I presume the Labour president resigned because she had reported her sexual assault to him in their private meeting, and the media would be likely to ask him why he chose to not inform the Labour Council and/or the PM.

                  Since a Labour lawyer was a panel member, we must assume his legal advice was to ignore the sexual assault complaints. Will the female QC endorse that legal decision? Probably the question burning in the psyche of all Labour parliamentarians currently.

                  However there's other questions they may become obsessed by: did the Labour panel lawyer advise the complainants to take their sexual assault complaints to the police? If not, why not? Will the written record of the panel investigation be available to the QC? Or has it already been destroyed by the lawyer?

                  • Anne

                    Or has it already been destroyed by the lawyer?


                    • Dennis Frank

                      I hope you're right and it survives and she gets it, in which case she will look to see if the complaints of sexual assault were recorded. If they were not, and the complainants are telling the truth, she will wonder why not, and ask the lawyer.

                      If the praxis of closet stalinism was being used by the lawyer, he will deny that those complaints were made. That strategy will fail if other panel members testify that they were made. Thus closet stalinism will only prevail if the gatekeepers repel the barbarians in unison. To translate this into everyday English, the QC will have to decide if the evidence proves a cover-up, or not. If she reports a panel consensus denial of the complaints' existence, that will suggest a cover-up – but not prove it.

                  • lprent

                    Since a Labour lawyer was a panel member, we must assume his legal advice was to ignore the sexual assault complaints.

                    Any lawyer would give the same advice. If it is serious enough to be treated as sexual assault, then it is a criminal matter, and therefore a matter that can only be dealt with by the police.

                    If it was a matter of harassment or bullying, then it could be a police matter or an employment matter.

                    The most that the Labour council in full could have done was to remove membership.

                    The most that the leaders office could have done was to inform parliamentary services if it was related to employment at the place of work. Employment contracts are pretty strict about trying to intrude into what happens outside of work.

                    Just think about your comment. It was just as pathetically meaningless in terms of any realistic outcomes as Labours responses.

                    There is a reason for that – there are some severe constraints about who can investigate criminal actions and who is allowed to judge them.

                    The Labour council couldn’t deal with sexual abuse allegations. I would argue that there are some strong legal constraints on what they could do with bullying or harassment as well.

                    Basically this is a beat up by people too lazy or ignorant to look at the current legal avenues of redress.

                    We could look at changes to legal structures over the longer term as well.

                    But I would say that the fastest short term thing would be to increase police staff and resources so that they have time to deal with the existing loads. Also to target funding directly to increasing ASA investigators in the police rather than the scatter gun approach that NZ First has been doing.

                    • lprent

                      And better education about sex crimes innthe police wouldn’t go admission amiss. But giving one or more of the groups oversight access on progress with and ability to look at and report on individual police case handling might provide an incentive.

                      I am all for reducing sexual assault. I just don’t get interested in meaningless and futile indignation about things that simply aren’t possible for anyone to do.

                      I prefer if people could get interested in figuring out ways to progress rather than letting this blow over as so many of these media feeding frenzies have done in the past.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Okay, I disagree in respect of whether or not Labour ought to have acknowledged and recorded the complaints. I believe the complainants expected the party to do so – that's evident from their statements to the media. Were such expectations fostered by Labour's embrace of the Me Too movement? Very likely.

                      How the complaints were handled subsequently has both political and legal contexts. You are choosing to focus on the latter, seems to me. The complainants are seeming to focus on the former, and I'm more concerned with the victims, in respect of their whistle-blower status.

                      Party members who volunteer to work for the party in their spare time are actually workers. Employment law doesn't recognise their work, right? So it doesn't acknowledge their status. Being attacked while doing that work, by someone in the Labour hierarchy, is probably something the Labour Council would rather not happen. It cannot make informed decisions to prevent such attacks when its investigative panel decides not to inform it of them, can it?

                      So freedom of information is the relevant principle to apply. Labour's Council ought to instruct the lawyer involved to act in accord with that principle. Obviously the guy is incapable of figuring it out for himself, else he would have reported the attack to the Council. Clearly the complainants expected the panel to report their complaints to the Council: they've voiced their expectations in their media interviews.

                      I'm left wondering if Trotter is right, and the Labour elite uses unwritten rules. The one you seem to be endorsing is that party decisions must not be made in accord with the principle of natural justice. You may not have intended to create that impression, I hasten to acknowledge! Nonetheless, a huge number of voters are likely to share that impression with the complainants.

                    • lprent []

                      How the complaints were handled subsequently has both political and legal contexts.

                      What I am arguing is that the political aspects are essentially pointless. They almost certainly won’t led to anything changing apart from some pointless hand-waving. This is particularly easy to see when you cast your mind back over ‘sex scandals’ in the political history in this country. I’d argue that none of them changed anything significantly when you look back over decade.

                      What does change things is slowly changing the legal structures and resourcing to investigate and prosecute. Louise Nicholas in her long protracted struggle and subsequent career (and others like her) have done far far more to change the handling of sexual assault complaints than any ridiculous political sex scandal in the media.

                      Being attacked while doing that work, by someone in the Labour hierarchy, is probably something the Labour Council would rather not happen. It cannot make informed decisions to prevent such attacks when its investigative panel decides not to inform it of them, can it?

                      You mean someone who recently left Young Labour themselves? And a council that has absolutely no skills in how to handle sexual assaults or bullying or HR level employment issues? There is reason that managers and directors are generally excluded from dealing with any of these kinds of things these days – they’re completely useless at dealing with them. They usually manage to screw things up massively.

                      One of the primary mistakes is that they tend towards sympathy rather than knowledge and find out exactly how far they have over promised when they finally and belatedly ask someone knowledgeable. Which looks like it is what happened here.

                      The one you seem to be endorsing is that party decisions must not be made in accord with the principle of natural justice.

                      Which really just shows that you don’t understand the term or the principles of natural justice. Try looking it up some time. Wikipedia has an adequate overview.

                      Basically principles of natural justice go both ways and the fastest way to screw up an investigation and any subsequent action is to not recognize that. Making punitive assumptions about any party in a dispute without clear and unambiguous evidence is something that isn’t can be taken lightly. Which is why it is best to leave it to expert investigators and experts in producing a fair hearing and keep the rank amateurs out of it.

                      Usually all that amateurs do is to keep the accuser(s) and accused and everyone else on the torture rack for longer while the fumble around for a solution that could have been gotten right from the start.

                      Your last comment indicates that you’re strictly in that amateur level of understanding – too arrogant to understand the issues and too stupid to learn without getting it chiseled into your consciousness. In other words – what I think about the NZ council at present.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Wikipedia, on that page, explains the legal tradition of usage we have inherited. I was using it in the non-legal traditional sense. I grew up & old frequently encountering such usage in books so I adopted the habit. If you google the origin of the term you get this: "It is derived from the Roman Concept 'jus – naturale' and 'Lex naturale' which meant principle of natural law, natural justice, eternal law, natural equity or good conscience. Lord Evershed, in Vionet v. Barrett remarked, “Natural Justice is the natural sense of what is right and wrong.”

                      This natural sense of right & wrong is fundamental to politics, and the narrow legal definition has only marginal relevance outside the legal profession.

                      I assume you became abusive after jumping to the conclusion that I was intent on attacking Labour? Not so. I support the PM's stance on the issue. As a supporter of the coalition, I believe it's in our common interest for Labour to get it right.

                      The panel's decision to ignore the sexual assault complaints seems similar to Facebook's corporate decision to ignore complaints about violent media postings. Ought the principle of collective responsibility be selectively applied to penalise corporations and favour political parties? I don't believe so. Harm is done when organisations turn a blind eye to harmful behaviour by members.

                    • lprent []

                      FFS: I know the Roman conceptual framework on it as well. As usual they grabbed it. It was the basis of the Athenian legal and philosophical systems as well. The problem was that there were always two versions of “natural law”.

                      The problem is that as far as I can see you appear to only be using a portion of it. The portion that was bastardised in some of the 17th to 19th century political debates on natural justice. Specifically in the sense of one-sided sense of right and wrong by invoking “natural law”. All you have to do is to make an assertion – and hey presto it is natural law…

                      For instance
                      “negros are naturally inferior to white people because they don’t wear as many clothes”.
                      “women are naturally inferior to men because their gender makes them subject to mood swings on a lunar cycle”.
                      “animals don’t really feel pain and distress because they aren’t intelligent”.
                      “woman sickness after birth is natural” – that was favourite of doctors with grubby hands.

                      The specific one(s) that you seem to be grasping at is
                      “men are all natural rapists because of the hormones released from their testicles therefore they always guilty”
                      and several other fallacies.

                      Mostly natural law used that way is a series of simple fallacies that are used to mask bigots. It is the natural language of subjectation and lynch law.

                      In essence if you look at the history of science over the last few hundred years – almost all of it is a steady refutation of “natural laws” of the type that you’re championing. Sure they live on in the popular consciousness. Cultural memes like that can last for thousands of years in human cultures – especially if they’re useful to some group.

                      However invariably when someone starts talking about “natural law” in the context you were using, then I usually start asking myself exactly which kind of bigot have I found this time.

                      Natural law in the other sense is pretty much about fair balance between parties, redressing imbalances with representation, not jumping to conclusions, and waiting for the evidence rather than waving the hemp excitably in the air in a legal, societal and political sense.

                      In other words not acting like most of the idiots in the parliamentary press gallery who’re more interested in waving a bloody scalp than seeing any kind of justice.

                      The abuse just comes naturally to me when I see someone being an idiot… I like being both smart and blunt. It tends to waste less of my time.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yes, misuse of the term to support bigotry seems to have happened at times. I was using it in the sense of fairness, as some other kiwis have also. To support the (naive) expectation of the complainants/victims.

                      Although I agree that the police seem to have improved as the result of working with LN, the aversion to participating in their process still seems strong enough in the minds of the young folk affected, that they prefer the party to care for & support them. As volunteer workers, it's understandable that they regard the party as de facto employers, I suppose.

                      Anyway, I get that you want them to get real – nothing wrong with that. I appreciate you spending time explaining your perspective. With youngsters though, we probably ought to cut them some slack. The education system doesn't prepare them for life in the urban jungle, and political parties don't warn or train them to cope with predators who front as likable colleagues.

                • Anne


                  TC is a very slow learner.

                  It's too soon to explain to him ;

                  there was literally nothing substantive the Labour party could have done apart from advising the people concerned to go to the police or lay a complaint with the employer if it had be done as part of the work.

                  It will be at least another six months before he is ready for such a sophisticated analysis.

    • Incognito 3.3

      I’d like to set the record straight: I know as little as most here and probably less. I have stopped trying to follow this in the media, just as I stopped following anything Trump or Boris-Brexit. The media just fill my head with so much noise I can’t think straight anymore and instead of using critical thinking I start to react to the media narratives, in a bad way, I should add.

  4. vto 4

    Teaching our history in schools is the most brilliant thing in a long time. It will strengthen us and pave the way for a better future.

    However, to some it seems that teaching our history means teaching the land wars only. That needs doing for sure, without doubt. But there are many other pre-euro histories to teach too. Have been doing a great deal of reading on this period and it is fascinating – on a par or more with that standard european silly history that we all know, in terms of human interactions, adventures, mis-adventures and achievements. I would love to have been around then. It contains everything, just like Europe and every other occupied land on the planet – equally cool and equally blood-soaked.

    I hope the lot gets taught and the period between waka arrivals and euro arrivals is not missed out. It is fascinating.

    I wanna go back

    • vto 4.1

      And here's a historic conundrum for the students to ponder: Kupe and Cook, one and the same?

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        ummm Kupe has a whakapapa as has cook – they aren't the same not even close, not even in the wildest imaginations of some – Māori don't need cook for anything imo.

        This is a good example of the types of attacks people get – good the complaint was upheld.

        The Media Council found that these sorts of views were regrettably often expressed and were technically relevant to the issue of what arose from the arrival of the Endeavour.

        "However, they are based on an absurd and racist premise; that the developments of the industrial revolution, which took place long after the arrival of the Endeavour, would not have been utilised by Māori, presumably because of some inherent defect on their part; that they are inferior.

        "In our view, the principle of freedom of expression cannot excuse the decision of the Gisborne Herald to publish such an abusive comment in its letter to the editor section." it found.

        The Media Council also found that it was wrong and gratuitous to take a racist and insulting expression of opinion from the discussion postings, and place it in a letters to the editors column. It said it was discriminating by being gratuitously racist.

        • vto

          E- almost an F.. irrelevant

          East polynesia around the time of the various waka, and europe around the time of Tasman and Cook, were near identical in terms of what was going on within each society – the pressures, the conflicts, the refugees and the colonisations…

          it is a subject worthy of exploration by young aotearoans in any new history curriculum

          away from today's politics and claptrap

          • marty mars

            "East polynesia around the time of the various waka, and europe around the time of Tasman and Cook, were near identical in terms of what was going on within each society – the pressures, the conflicts, the refugees and the colonisations…"

            lol perhaps put your sources up for this and the other outlandish idea that Kupe and cook were the same person – ffs that's batshit crazy as saying Cleopatra and mary queen of scots was the same person.

            I suspect your sources are very untrustworthy and have been proven to be over many years and by many experts, however let's have a look and we will see.

            • vto

              lol yeah nah who said they were the same person ? lol

              • marty mars

                "And here's a historic conundrum for the students to ponder: Kupe and Cook, one and the same?"

                is what you wrote isn't it – and now you say

                lol yeah nah who said they were the same person ? lol

                you sure you are being truthful? There is no "historical conundrum" unless you are terribly thick or have dubious views, discounted by experts for years.

                perhaps withdraw gracefully from this folly is good advice, if you can…

                • weka

                  Marty, I don't think he is saying they're the same person but the same kind of person.

                  Rather than this being a long drawn out Saturday argument based on an unwillingness to understand each other, how about accepting he's trying to make a point about them being the same kind of people and addressing that?

                  Vto, likewise re a long drawn out Saturday argument, maybe just make it clear what you mean. Eg they're not the same person but they're the same kind of person.

                  • marty mars

                    ok but I really did think that was what he was meaning – that's why I was laughing at it. Seems I misinterpreted – sorry vto.

                  • vto

                    weka he is taking the piss as always. tedious bore

                    [weekend ban, mostly so I don’t have to keep wasting my time on this – weka]

                    [but also, maybe think about what it’s like for other people when discussions degenerate into ad homs – weka]

                    • vto

                      jesus weka, you're too much

                      see ya later can't be bothered trying to debate our history or much at all in these circumstances

                      [wise choice. When you come back, please rethink what I am saying here. It’s not about the politics it’s how the debate gets derailed. You bring good things to this site, so I hope you get this – weka]

                • vto

                  it is you being dishonest in suggesting the post meant they were the same person…

                  but it does suit your tediously repititive personal attack character – forget about me marty mars (though I know you just can't lol) and concentrate on the actual point

                  • weka

                    please read my comment above.

                    I don't want to get the bold pen out, but I will if you two keep having a go at each other instead of discussing the issues you are both raising.

                    • vto

                      weka i would ask you to take note of who always starts this. i act in self-defence. every time. see this thread for example

                      [Here’s how I see it having played out. You made a comment, marty misinterpreted it and reacted, you reacted to his reaction, he reacted again, that went on for a while. Neither of you sought clarity. I asked you both to stick to the points and clarify what you meant, you carried on. I don’t care who started it. I care about my time being wasted as a moderator and I care about the nature of the debate and whether it will put other people off this space. – weka]

            • vto

              sources are most many iwi websites, te ara, tangata whenua an illustrated history, michael king, several other texts … a whole pile

              i know you are just dying for me to quote some bullshit racists hoax website, but that is your issue and its time you got past your hyper-sensitivities

              • marty mars

                put these sources up – pretty basic if indeed they are your sources

                • vto

                  go read them yourself, I'm not your educator

                  • greywarshark

                    Good that is something we can all agree with vto. Let's be aware of Maori sensitivity about some things as with Cook, pakeha from an industrialised country, and Kupe a founding father to many Maori, centuries earlier than Cook, a virtual son of the oceans, sailing and reading the signs and working with his co-leaders in their canoe whanau to survive and arrive in as good as form as possible; all the time nurturing people and plants and so on.

    • unanswered questions about this are:

      when did history stop being taught..?

      and who the fuck thought that was a good idea..?

      • vto 4.2.1

        the teaching of history has always been intensely political

        teach only those things which reflect well

        ignore those which don't

        there are lots of examples of these which are ignored in nz/aotearoa, by both/all parties

      • Dennis Frank 4.2.2

        Well, I can report that history was taught to me in school (New Plymouth) as a subdivision of social studies (the other part being geography). Extremely simplistic overview only, and anglo-centric. My intro to the cultural ambience of Aotearoa was via imperialism – it was still the social norm here in the mid-1950s.

        In college in Wanganui, the residual patriarchy dropped social studies from the compulsory category. English, maths and general science were compulsory. French was optional. Physics & chemistry replaced general science in the 5th form, for me. Dunno about biology. I suspect history was a concurrent option for those headed away from science…

    • MickeyBoyle 4.3

      I will honestly say I knew very little about NZs history right up into my early 30s. I was born here, went through our education system, right through to tertiary level and not once did I learn anything about this great wee country's history. Luckily my wife is a amateur historian, who specifically focusses around the south island's west coast and otago, southland areas, which fortunately has allowed me to catch up a tad on how our ancestors lived and how this amazing country's culture was formed. This announcement was a great one in a shitty overall week.

  5. one of the more interesting unanswered questions is what/when did grant robertson know..?

    and did he lie (by omission)/mislead the prime minister..?

    and if so will she sack him..?

    and if that scenario came to pass – who would be the finance minister..?

    and would they be as much of a neoliberal-incrementalist as robertson is..?

    or would they 'deliver' on the promises labour made..?..

    and give us the reforms/”transformation’ many expected..

    upon hearing those pre-election promises made..

    (still my beating heart..!..)

    • The Chairman 5.1

      Yes, phillip ure. Questions I (and others) also want answers too. Yet, despite Jacinda's claim of taking action, aren't forthcoming. Grant is also dancing on the head of a pin and dodging them.

      • phillip ure 5.1.1

        my reading of it is that robertson seems much more 'the perp' than j.a….(who i think 'didn't know'..robertson not so much..)

        and he has 'what/when/why?/why not?' questions to answer…

        and i really don't see this as election-deciding..

        (the public memory is too short..this too will pass..)

        the bigger danger for labour re-election prospects.. public cynicism at the chronic over-promising/under-delivering we have seen to date..

        ..that they won't forget…

        and labour would be well-advised to change that wide-held perception..

        wresting robertsons’ neoliberal-incrementalist fingers from the finance portfolio wd hopefully break that log-jam..

        and we would see the reforms we were promised..

        • The Chairman

          It won't be the only deciding factor in the election, but trust in a party is a big issue nonetheless.

          I agree failing to deliver compounded by a number of issues getting worse (rather than better) will also be an issue come election time. However, it will come back to whether or not voters will trust them to do better, thus give them another crack. And this issue does nothing to help build voter trust in them.

          • Sacha

            'Failure to deliver' has been a main Nat line for some time already, so it will feature in their election campaigning, sure.

            • The Chairman

              It's a main line and feeling for a number on the left too.

            • phillip ure

              i'm so 'left' i scare myself sometimes..

              i look at some people and (irrationally) want to nationalise them..(peter thiel..?..)

              i look at dirty industries and want to nationalise them/strip them of their ill-gotten gains..(more 'rational' i feel..

              and the tories glomming onto that under-delivery is not just their spin..

              for labour people to believe that/and to dismiss the under-delivery complaints/that perception..

              wd be dangerous in the extreme for them – in the sense of re-election hopes/prospects..

              it is their achilles-heel…

        • Tiger Mountain

          Yep, Labour need to borrow and spend big. Discard their miserly fiscal cap and rip into state house/apartment builds, rent control, raise benefits, bring in the Fair Pay Agreements, and put the fear of the proverbial into Employers–who lest we forget have had it basically all their way since 1991.

          Make the Cannabis Referendum icing on the electoral cake by encouraging heaps of non voters to participate. And while they are at it–repeal the State Sector Act and return all SOEs to being Govt. Departments–oh, and make all senior public servants reapply for their jobs and sack most of them for being neo liberal bludgers and underminers. All those leaks to National come from somewhere!

          • phillip ure

            yep..!…to all that..!

          • cleangreen

            100% Tiger Mountain;

            I support this plan you present here, as it is the tangible way to our own future.

            We need to take back our public control of our assets not have any SOE block us from inclusion as a public taxpayer and shareholder.

            Not the Johnkey model of 'borrowed overseas bank rort'.

    • Jimmy 5.2

      If Jacinda really did not know until Monday, and it comes out that Grant or other ministers did, I would say Grant and those other ministers could be in deep shit.

      If it comes out that she did know before …………
      Neither option is very good. This has been handled badly.

      • OnceWasTim 5.2.1

        As long as you want to keep all this speculative shit alive…….I reckon you'll find that JA did not know – whether or not Grunt did is another matter. Grunt's going to have a whole other apparatus to deal with – but he does have his support mechanisms in place (and they don't just involve a few 0800 numbers to dial, going forward).

        Meanwhile Jimmy, aren't there a few other threats to your well-being you should be dealing with?

    • gsays 5.3

      Pick me, pick me (he said A'la Arnold Horshack, thrusting his hand in the air), I can be finance minister.

      I will abolish gst and paye. Introduce a wealth tax, a CGT and a FTT.

      Pay parity for teachers, nurses and police.

      Teacher aide in every class room.

      Renationalize the power companies, introduce

  6. Hanswurst 6

    Jo Swinson might want to tread a bit more carefully than she does here, where she comes across as rather lightweight, and just mouthing soundbites that will resonate with her smallish core constituency. She says that she won't work with either Corbyn or Johnson, presumably because she's speculating that she'll be working with the Tories after the election, and that Johnson won't be the leader any more. There is a strong likelihood, however, that both Corbyn and Johnson will still be there, and that they are far harder to replace than she is, as the less established leader of a caucus cobbled together from defectors from other parties on the one hand, and people who are pissed off with those defectors on the other.

    She also claims in one breath that she represents anti-authoritarianism, then in the next that her party will support scrapping Brexit without a referendum. Both propositions will appeal to hard-line remainers who vote LibDem anyway, and it's not impossible to reconcile the two statements to an extent, but boy does it paint an easy target on her for a coming election campaign. I also wonder how anti-authoritarian some of her caucus and constituents find a party leadership that welcomes high-profile defectors from other parties and decides to parachute them into safe (or at least winnable) seats over existing party members.

    She comes across as someone who's used to being applauded for delivering soundbites about freedom and opportunity, but isn't prepared to position herself quickly in reaction to a fast-moving political situation, and isn't in the least aware of how unprepared she is. A bit of a mess, really.

    • Bearded Git 6.1

      Agree Hanswurst.

      Her categorisation of Corbyn as unfit to be PM is particularly dumb. This from the woman who was happy to be in a coalition with the Tories and voted with them numerous times for austerity. She is all mouth and trousers.

      • Hanswurst 6.1.1

        She’s also the person who delivered an ultimatum that she would not take part in any government headed by Corbyn, in the eventuality of a vote of no confidence in Johnson's government, and then spun that as his inflexibility getting in the way of forming a government.

        • Bearded Git

          Yes…and all this bollocks about a "government of national unity" Swinson was supporting to be headed by Kenneth Clark when the obvious thing to do was for all the parties to get in behind Corbyn and Labour.

          Corbyn has actually been excellent over the last couple of months and Labour's policy on Brexit is now very clear despite the media trying to make out it is not.

          The big worry is that Bojo will devise some crappy Brexit deal that sneaks through parliament before 31 Oct (probably with the backing of the DUP)….he will probably then be PM for 3 more years.

          • Hanswurst

            The DUP seem a little peeved with him just now, actually. Besides, he doesn't have a majority even with them at the moment. Parliament has a couple of options that would likely get a majority before they let a Johnson-negotiated deal through, like asking for an extension in order to hold a referendum (possibly even before an election, as has been advocated by some of the recent Tory defectors and Labour's ratbag deputy leader Tom Watson).

          • greywarshark

            Val McDermid is a Scot and this morning on Radionz* was scathing about the way that the SNP is not noticed by London media even though they constitute the third largest party in the Common. (I think that is what she said.) She talked about the likelihood of the two Irelands being 'incandescent' with rage at how their political and economic systems are being mangled by London and feels that leaving the EU will be the tipping point of independence demand by Scotland.

            And why not. At some point in an unfolding disaster, any thinking person or group might contemplate an action when a recognised tipping point is reached, and weigh it up with the thought 'What have I or we got to lose by doing it compared to putting up being munted'.

            For those who like analogies and folk stories. The English uppers, are also downers, having learned nothing, apparently, from The Charge of the Light Brigade. 'Death or glory' shouts Toad as he charges forward, but in a perversion of Wind in the Willows, he has joined with the weasels and they plan to impose a dictatorship and harsh taxes on the inhabitants of the Wild Wood.

            *10:30 Crime writer Val McDermid – How the Dead Speak

            Val McDermid

            Val McDermid Photo: Mimsy Moller.

            Best selling Scottish crime writer Val McDermid has sold more than 15 million copies of her work worldwide.

            She's arrived in New Zealand to take up a role as a visiting Professor of Scottish Studies and Crime Fiction at the University of Otago. Over the next three years she will teach courses, mentor postgrads and do a series of public lectures and readings.

            She's recently released two books How the Dead Speak, the latest in her Tony Hill series, and My Scotland, which explores the landscapes that have inspired her work

            Val will be making appearances in Christchurch at The Great Ngaio Marsh Game Show & Awards tonight, Celtic Noir in Dunedin in October and the Verb festival in Wellington in November.

  7. millsy 7

    Would love to know where National's concern for those sexual harrasement victims in the retail and hospitality industry who don't make it through their 90 day trial period is.

  8. Sacha 8

    Why Raglan is a hotbed of vaccination resistance:

    Of the ten 5-year-olds on the playground at Te Kopua Domain, three or four won't be immunised.

    • time for a public meeting on this in raglan – i'd go/have a word..

      (tho' those with unvaccinated children can leave them at home ..

      i don't wanna catch the

      i had a conversation with a (self-regarding) 'healer' in northland a few months ago..

      i pointed out to her that the original study this is all based on has been totally refuted by the author of it…that it had a very small number of subjects..

      that the doctor author has resigned/apologised….

      the publication he used to peddle his false-story (the lancet) has also apologised..

      her response to all this: 'they made him say that'…

      (at this stage i threw up my hands – and walked away..)

      how the fuck do you argue against such blind-adherence..?

  9. AB 9

    Some future left government needs a "democratically-owned media" policy. Paper of that needs to be taxing privately-owned media into bankruptcy.

  10. soddenleaf 10

    The alleged perp is gone, the official who for whatever, gone too. Why do they want to get Ardern, coz it's over, if there was a crime take it to the police. If this is bad behaviour, then fire the guy, oh his gone now. If it took to long fire the official responsible, oh he's gone too.

    • Sacha 10.1

      How does that stop this happening again?

    • cleangreen 10.2


      Ask George Soros why. He runs Me Too.

      • Macro 10.2.1


        You know that is QAnon conspiracy theory don't you?

        The Russia investigation is a sham. It’s actually a cover story for special counsel Robert Mueller and Donald Trump working together to expose thousands of pedophiles hidden in plain sight — including Hillary Clinton (and Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama), who will soon be under arrest. (Or perhaps already have been and are on their way to Guantanamo Bay.)

        The GOP lost the Alabama special election for Jeff Sessions’s Senate seat on purpose — a plan devised years ago to reveal the use of fraudulent voting machines and, ultimately, take down none other than George Soros. Or the Rothschilds. Or the Illuminati.

        And there’s no White House chaos at all; in fact, despite legal scandals and special counsel investigations and bile-laden tweets, everything, absolutely everything, is going just as Donald Trump intended it.

        Welcome to QAnon, sometimes referred to as “the Storm.” It’s a conspiracy theory that’s swept social media and is starting to break into the mainstream, with Trump rally attendees in Florida on July 31 holding signs and wearing T-shirts emblazoned with “We are Q” and the conspiracy theory’s main catchphrase, “Where we go one, we go all.”

        For the record Tarana Burke began the MeToo movement over 10 years ago.

        Ten years before the allegations against Harvey Weinstein became public knowledge, Tarana Burke was already helping young women talk about sexual assault. Working with girls at an organization she co-founded called Just Be Inc., she heard a lot of reports of sexual violence, and she wanted to offer young survivors what she needed in the aftermath of her own assault: empathy.

        So she started the Me Too campaign “to spread a message for survivors: You’re heard, you’re understood.”

  11. Treetop 11

    The people who made the allegations did the right thing for their selves. They are entitled to their privacy and to raise the matter with whom they chose to. When they are not satisfied with the outcome they are entitled to go else where until they are satisfied.

    The people they approach need to be very aware of not adding further stress to an already differcult situation or to exploit the issue which the complainants raised.

    In time it will be revealed how inept the people were who the complainants went to for help and how the situation was mishandled.

    • aom 11.1

      It is a bit much to expect instant results when despite all the enquires, prosecutions and expert input over may years, even the NZ Police still can't get it right. Realistically if society could get it right, either the abuse might not have happened in the first place, but in the event that it did, the abused would have been confident about taking a complaint to the Police to initiate a prosecution. Instead, we now have a media storm that seems more set on crucifying the PM than achieving a resolution for those who were offended against.

      • Treetop 11.1.1

        The position the complainants are in, I would not think that they anticipated that a QC would become involved in their complaint to their employer. The employer is not the alledged offender.

        It is understandable that the complainants may not go to the police. This may change.

        What needs to change is that there is a robust process to protect and support the complainant when a physical or a sexual complaint involves the employers reputation.

        Bennet used parliamentary privilege (I am aware she went to the speaker) to raise the issue and she expects some sort of rapid response. I note your comment, It is a bit much to expect instant results…

      • Anne 11.1.2

        100% aom.

        For the past few days I have watched as the media hacks adopted a pack mentality and, with few exceptions, ploughed into Labour and Jacinda Ardern with a malevolence unparalleled in this country. The handful of professional journos and commentators we know exist must be cringing at the behaviour of their colleagues. I look forward to hearing from them in the near future.

        Another aspect to this story that has been given scant attention is the fact that serious bullying, sexual harassment, assaults and rape is rife throughout NZ. What has happened in the Labour Parry is indicative of what is happening in every large organisation in the country. You name it, they will be dealing with the same kind of issues. It also occurs within the ranks of the police force, our armed forces and – as we know – our political parties past and present.

        The hypocrisy of the National Party and Paula Bennett knows no bounds. Think Richard Worth. He sexually assaulted two young women (at the least) during the course of his political life and I wonder how those women are feeling at the moment. Pretty distressed I should think. He got away with it because they were too frightened and traumatised to approach the police – just like so many other women down the years.

        Imagine if National had offered to assist Labour and given them the benefit of their own experiences. Imagine the huge morale booster that would have been for all the abused women throughout NZ. Now that would have been showing real leadership. It might have changed the course of the country and prevented many more young women from having to go through similar traumatic experiences.

        Instead they went down the path of political expediency, aided and abetted by their hackneyed media mates.

  12. marty mars 12

    Doing things differently. I was there for the burning and I am proud of my community for walking the walk not just talking the talk. RIP brother.

    A Golden Bay man has had his dying wish fulfilled – an outdoor cremation amongst nature and friends.

    …Tasman District Council community relations manager Chris Choat said no resource consent was required for Endrodi's cremation. All such cases were managed by the Medical Officer of Health.

  13. soddenleaf 13

    Sonia asks how does this stop it happening again. Given my browser does not allow me to reply to the thread, just add a entirely new comment at the bottom…

    Simply what do you mean, are you saying we genetically alter men? Or procedural the Labour party? Or do yo mean that losing ones job is not enough to focus future officials who don't act quicker? Or do we blame young women who accept invitations to men's homes? Which one of the infinite universes are we going to ban again, coz, last time I looked its ?gotamole?. Stuff happens, it will happen again, all the times it's dealt with properly it's not news worthy, all the times it's not dealt with, it's not on the news. The only time its exposed and goes badly everyone most I believe see it as the system working. Light is good. Bad things happen to good people, processes meet power, brains make bad decisions, people lose jobs, we all feel better.

  14. Hmmm… the Democrats who supported slavery… and the Republicans who didn't…

    Confederate "General" Julius Howell Recalls the 1860s

    And then there's this….

    2014/15 John Wilkes Booth: The Last Journey (video)

    Joan Baez – The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (video)

    [three youtube videos in one post is kind of spammy WK. I’ve converted the last two to links – weka]

    • Then theres this…

      Heyward Shepherd monument – Wikipedia › wiki › Heyward_Shepherd_monument

      And the guy who devoted his life to 'equality' -but used violent means to attain it…

      John Brown (abolitionist) – Wikipedia › wiki › John_Brown_(abolitionist)


      • WILD KATIPO 16.1.1

        Why I bring this up is the fact that Abe Lincoln was facing re election and needed a Union win… well ,…that was the motivation of his 'Emancipation Proclamation'. He was warned off it until the Union won a huge victory. There were 3000,000 African American votes in the Southern states he hoped to secure in doing so,,, but prudence said he should wait… so he did…

        But up until that time, he was more interested in reconciliation with the South, regardless of civil rights…you see… the industrial North relied upon the agrarian South for its commerce with Europe… England saw this as well as France,… and backed off until a solution was reached… in recognizing diplomatic relations…

        And this is one of the reasons why the successionist's claimed states rights…

        Because Lincoln was , in essence, an appeaser.

        And it was only the clever 'Emancipation Proclamation' paper he produced that changed the premise with war with the South that changed it from an issue of 'states rights' to one of challenging the constitution …

        Now, I don't support any slavery,… but to turn around in some mealy mouthed way and dress up something to suit some shit arsed political re election campaign isn't any less dishonest either.

        Maybe 'Honest Abe' needs to be looked at a little more honestly.

        Just another dishonest politician out for his own.

        Republicans and Democrats?- you both got blood on your hands.

        Dig up that old DNA , get forensic scientists to look at those old bones?

        Their blood cries out forever to the injustices you created.

        • Sacha

          Why I bring this up

          .. is a much better place to start rather than lobbing clips and links at us.

          • WILD KATIPO

            No, but then again…'lobbing clips and links' is a good way to start to introduce a topic,… rather than just stating a random opinion. I’m sure you will agree there are much more learned voices than either you or I .

            Much like the dilemma that faced both those Confederate and Union troops,… of which thousands died believing they were fighting for the right cause… thousands of lives… do you even care?

            Does anyone care 159 – 160 years after the fact?

            Yet you are the benefactors and recipients of modern democracy built upon the sacrifice and experience of those very lives…

            • Stuart Munro.

              Not too sure about that – for all that it would be nice to see the survival of the rest of Hutcheson's humanism in our ruling institutions, the democratic impulse in our politics is likely the survival of Knox's counter to divine right: leaders were to be chosen democratically or rule with the consent of the governed because to do otherwise, asserting a fiction like divine right, was heretical. The influence of the ACW was relatively minimal to British colonies, who already had antislavery provisions courtesy of Hutcheson's students.

              Lincoln was indeed an opportunist, and is said to have credited Harriet Beecher Stowe with the war “So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war." But the southern defenders of 'states rights' were by no means innocent, and Lincoln was surprised to find that a relatively ethical path prospered against them politically.

        • Hanswurst

          Now, I don't support any slavery,… but to turn around in some mealy mouthed way and dress up something to suit some shit arsed political re election campaign isn't any less dishonest either.

          Maybe 'Honest Abe' needs to be looked at a little more honestly.

          It's not actually any kind of secret that Lincoln was a moderate, rather than a committed firebrand who wanted to end slavery at all costs.

          • WILD KATIPO

            Perhaps that has relevance in today's less than honest statements among political leaders then…

            Is the rectrospective perusal of old history any less relevant?

            I think not.

            How many ways are there to communicate a message?

            I'm sure a mathematician could number them. The average person could not.

            Consider then, the amount of treaties given to so many native Americans… which were a white wash to rip them off and commit genocide…

            Traditional Lakota/Dakota Sundance Songs 3/6 – YouTube

            Is THIS spam?

            • marty mars

              yep – less is more, relevance is relevant, and YOUR opinion and thoughts is what I want to hear – that is REAL street cred – saying your piece and debating it if necessary. I've seen you do it so I know you can and your opinion and thoughts are valuable. AND a video here and there is a good mood taker or breaker.

              • Its just that in juxtaposition with the slaughter of so many lives…in the American civil war,… lovely young mens lives on both sides,… so many lives wasted… and yet, so many were influenced not by moral issues but sociological issues… nothing changed in the First World War.


                They were simply goaded into signing up because of peer pressure- largely.

                They were expected to line up and be slaughtered as cannon fodder. To be butchered on both sides as expedience.Yet when a cursory glance is cast on the motives of political leaders ,- and in this case I choose Lincoln – who has always been embedded as some kind of a Saint in American society… I see hypocrisy, – a care for the Afro Americans only pertaining to the votes he could catch because he was desperate for reelection at that time. Hence the ' Emancipation Proclamation'.

                To the tune of 3000,000 votes. But he was advised not to put that policy forward unless the Union won a large victory. Which they struggled to do . Robert E Lee generally outclassed them.

                And then there is John Brown, who… was a forerunner of the emancipation process, – lauded as a martyr of the Norths reasons ( anti slavery yet they relied on the agrarian Souths produce ) for invasion… yet he and his men killed 3 Black Americans in his zeal for emancipation regarding Black Americans… see the Harpers Ferry Incident for example.

                Heyward Shepherd monument – Wikipedia

       › wiki › Heyward_Shepherd_monument

                See how this is all getting twisted?

    • okie weka… but lets have a history lesson.. its important, people need to read the contemporary issues from both sides… I find it fascinating, it really is… a topsy turvy reeducation of current political thinking. And Im not afraid… its history 🙂

      I think we need to face stuff head on !

      • weka 16.2.1

        What Sacha said. Nothing wrong with linking to videos, but better to explain *your thinking and why you are posting them. Doesn't have to be an essay, but give people an idea of what the point of the videos is and why they should bother watching them. And what you want to discuss.

        (multiple vids in a comment are still going to be a problem though, because it’s annoying having to scroll past them all the time, make them links instead).

        • WILD KATIPO

          No , I dont buy that.

          Multiple videos, are a way in which those who see the short cuts of symbolism rather than a 4 page essay pertaining to a specialist / PHd can grasp in shorthand the meaning of communication.

          And to do that , we need a balanced perspective… not just the current dogma, which is, in fact, the current environment in which we operate.


          All too common, nowadays. What we need is perspectives from the time. Unadulterated by successive historians perspectives whose salary's are influenced by contemporary govt grants … which is ,… what the Nazi's did in their book burning exercises. Towing the govt lines. No , we dont want that… we want the perspectives of the people at the time to understand their thinking. Its a two edged sword,… in order to understand that… sometimes we need to understand the negative…or what we have been told is the negative… only to find out later… that what we have been led to believe was not actually the case…

          Such as Lincolns politically motivated ' Emancipation Proclamation'.

          Done not out of humanitarian concerns, but rather out of political expediency…

          This is the point I'm getting at…

          I dont care for either Democrat or Republican, National or Labour…

          Just truth.

          [I don’t know what you are not buying, so I will say again in bold as a moderator. Please don’t put multiple videos in a comment (or strings of video only comments). You can link and explain instead. – weka]

  15. cleangreen 17

    Today the 'Chairman' showed a high level was bias toward Labour more than before, with the bright blue suit today.

    We see, he/she has become less relevant now to many and we think has lost a considerable amount of respect using a ultra right wing spin doctor approach sadly, and 'over-‘guilding the lilly’.

    We used to take note of some of the past posts Chairman made, but now we will not read anything from Chairman again as he/she has lost credibility with that raw gleeful outburst of unfounded guilty accusations towards Jacinda.

    • Sacha 17.1

      When you write things like that, what do you want to happen here?

    • The Chairman 17.2

      Thanks, cleangreen. Another example of the party defenders playing the man.

      Guess I should have added something about adding more trains.


      • greywarshark 17.2.1

        That would have been a useful comment The Chairman. (About the trains. One of your better ideas.)

        • The Chairman

          Speaking of which, they do actually need too. It would help with the housing issue.

          Places like Levin, Masterton and foxton have far cheaper homes but poor train services into the city (Wellington) where there are more jobs.

      • cleangreen 17.2.2

        The Chairman?

        “Guess I should have added something about adding more trains.”

        Cheap shot as you are good at that on show at the beginning of the salvo you set against labour eh?

        Having more 'belittling' character assassination mood swings today are you?

        Will that be you again bordering on “mental abuse” perhaps?

  16. amirite 18

    Garner is salty that the Government refuses to bail out Mediaworks

    • lprent 18.1

      Why in the hell should we? It doesn’t add anything of use to our society apart from entertainment and the very occasional current affairs program. I seem to actively avoid all of its products and services because they are such crap (and getting worse from the last few years of links to their material).

      Mediaworks might start to explain what they’re providing to NZ. As far as I can see they are just a revenue stream going nowhere of interest to kiwis.

      Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay or support for it? That may work for Stephen Joyce (thinking of frequency sales here). But he was just a crony capitalist.

      • cleangreen 18.1.1

        100% there Iprent.

        As we are also funding RNZ who has turned rouge now.

        So like Steven Joyce did with NZ7 we need to stop funding any anti government media also and finally restore the now defunct TV7 that Labour set up in the Helen Clarke Government so we can have some real investigative Journalism not the click bait industry we have now (TS excluded)

      • Ad 18.1.2


        And we have plenty of state direct-funded media already.

  17. A 19

    Yowza! 4000 submissions to Treasury (Australia) for the Restriction of Cash Bill. So much for keeping that under the radar before passing it into law. TG for Youtube.

    Restriction of cash will harm everyday folks, not criminals. It WILL negatively impact disabled, retired, and people without internet access.

    Everyone forced to keep money in banks will have no choice but to pay whatever fees the banksters dictate, obviously low income earners will be most affected.

    Don’t let this happen in NZ – when our time comes say NO to restrictions of cash while you still can.

    • Ffloyd 19.1

      Wow. They're all coming for Jacinda! The whole gang is here. All of them have been around so long they are literally irrelevant. Everyone knows that they are not reporting politically but are just out to do a hatchet job on Jacinda. A sad lot of past their use by date hacks. Kate Hawksby. Has anyone read her scintillating oh so boring column in NZ Weekly Neither have I I did have s go once but couldn't get through first sentence. What a lightweight. Tim Wilson? Who's he. Mi-Nute Mike. Duncan G. Who's the one who's married to Soper? Big write up from some Nat sycophant on Pundit. Probably many more but it's such a beat up its boring. Hang tough Jacinda. This too shall pass. With you all the way.

  18. greywarshark 20

    We have heard some concerning things about vaping. Let's get back to getting natural marijuana measured for drugginess, grown by people who know about it, preferably Maori gangs who want to turn legit, and control all these synthetic lab made ways of killing off brain cells. There are few enough around that will pass a rationality fitness test – for those who know the difference between rationality and rationalising, and rations as in daily food requirements. Three important variants of an important word.

  19. greywarshark 21

    This is a useful variant of a grass that is useful for us. We should let this scientifically altered grass through I think, if the consequences further on are minimal.


    Lila Madden – Year 13 Eureka! Award winner

    From Saturday Morning, 9:43 am today Listen duration 11′ :45″

    Lila Madden, a Year 13 student from Cashmere High School in Christchurch, has become the latest premier award winner at The Sir Paul Callaghan Eureka! Awards.

    The competition, which has been running since 2012, involved students from across the country delivering a presentation on an area of technology, science, engineering and maths that could be used to benefit New Zealand.

    Her winning talk called 'Revolutionary Ryegrass' focussed on the value of ryegrass to the New Zealand economy, and how its potential could be maximised using emerging gene editing technologies.

  20. greywarshark 22

    I suppose well-informed people have heard about this gas that cuts down our hopes for electricity being a relatively benign energy source at a price we can afford. To control or stop using this gas may be necessary and the result of that seem problematic.

    It's the most powerful greenhouse gas known to humanity, and emissions have risen rapidly in recent years, the BBC has learned.

    Sulphur hexafluoride, or SF6, is widely used in the electrical industry to prevent short circuits and accidents.

    But leaks of the little-known gas in the UK and the rest of the EU in 2017 were the equivalent of putting an extra 1.3 million cars on the road.

    Levels are rising as an unintended consequence of the green energy boom.


    From Monday RNZ will join more than 240 media organisations from around the world in the Covering Climate Now (CCN) initiative by committing to heighten climate coverage in the week leading up to the UN Climate Action Summit on 23 September 2019.

    • cleangreen 22.1


      Thanks for the tipoff as I have recently banned watching RNZ as it has gone rouge right wing but I will watch that article for our planet and her heros out there demonstrating good call.

      • greywarshark 22.1.1

        cleangreen Be better if you could watch some and every week pick something bad or good and briefly send stating bias was inappropriate. I notice they had a heading this morning presenting some feedback – was in the recent or audio list.

        The point that they are looking for matters and background to present should not be overlooked. Give credit where it is due eh. I feel we should keep reminding quietly where there is too much bias against the country's interests. Try to accentuate the positives when they appear I think.

  21. greywarshark 23

    How is Julian getting on? He is not going anywhere. Is he well, I hope he is and getting good treatment. There will be a a dramatic book in this when he is free at last.

    • Adrian Thornton 23.1

      Free at last, I really hope so, but it isn't looking to good, especially now pretty much all media has turned on him.

      BTW, I listened to that piece on RNZ you linked me too the other day, it was pretty good, I actually think they, mainly the guy (can't remember their names) was in a round about way, was getting at what I was saying ie; the problems there are systemic and deep rooted..he just didn't go as far as me and link it to Labours unethical Liberal ideology, which is fair enough, especially if you want to be invited back to comment on RNZ that is!

      • xanthe 23.1.1

        " in a round about way, was getting at what I was saying ie; the problems there are systemic and deep rooted..he just didn't go as far as me and link it to Labours unethical Liberal ideology"

        Well I do agree with you that the problem is systemic and deep rooted . But I would suggest that it is their adoption of unethical racist and sexist ideology (ie identity politics) that underpins their problem. I haven't a clue what "Liberal" means these days.

        • Adrian Thornton

          When I use the term Liberal or Liberalism I am meaning this…

          "Neoliberalism is a policy model—bridging politics, social studies, and economics—that seeks to transfer control of economic factors to the private sector from the public sector. It tends towards free-market capitalism and away from government spending, regulation, and public ownership.

          Often identified in the 1980s with the conservative governments of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, neoliberalism has more recently been associated with so-called Third Way politics, which seeks a middle ground between the ideologies of the left and right."

          • xanthe

            Ahh you mean neoliberalism and i agree that its a part of the problem. inherent in neoliberalism is the idea that moral and ethical considerations can/should be transcended by market forces. (ie bullying!). It is however in the melding of, or expression of, identity politics within this neoliberal framework that has produced a particularly toxic environment.

  22. Sanctuary 25

    I had brunch this morning with an extremely funny, well groomed, well informed friend of mine. When I said "This ridiculous scandal…" he blinked and said "What scandal?"

    'nuff said.

  23. adam 26

    I for one – am looking forward to the wall to wall coverage and in depth of analysis when the next sex scandal breaks out with a political party.

    Now we have a standard lets kept to – no more Key and his 'boys will be boys' qib over rape.

    • Herodotus 26.1

      I don't think you or anyone else should refer to this as a sex scandal.

      Profumo was a sex scandal, this is an alleged sexual assault with poor office behaviour (bullying) and a power imbalance between the alleged instigator (and Labour officials ??) and those interns . By using "sex scandal" diminishes the seriousness of this, scandal to me is consensual consent.

      • greywarshark 26.1.1

        When someone in a position of authority and trust carries touching to the extent of groping the skin of someone's private parts while at the same time manipulating the person so they can't escape that shows an unforgiveable lack of respect for the person, and for the 'form'. It's a scandal all right, and you deserve a sandal for saying anything else.

        What I am interested in is what changes are going to be made? All these old men finding that political power has a viagra-like effect, and at the same time combatting prostrate problems, need to retire soon.Then the young stallions, and fillies, go through a workshop on how to treat the opposite gender, whatever is chosen, with respect and no smooching in the stationery (if they have paper) or stationary (if they don't) cupboard. The matter might be treated with a bit of lightness, but it should leave an overall feeling that it is regarded as a serious matter. And there should be some role play so that the unimaginative and determinedly ignorant understand just what is appropriate. And how intimacy in the workplace should be handled circumspectly.

  24. joe90 27

    Abbott and his ilk here are part of the same racist, nativist movement that's enabled the rise of Orban, Salvini, Farage and tRump.

    These fuckers all hanker for the good old days of ethnic supremacy, nationalism, state religion, and white babies. Lots and lots of white babies.

    The former Australian prime minister Tony Abbott has defended a speech he gave in praise of the far-right prime minister of Hungary, Viktor Orbán, and says a Brexit failure by Britain would be comparable to losing the Falklands war.

    In an opinion piece for Spectator Australia, published on Friday, Abbott said the real “extinction rebellion” facing Western society “is not against our failure to reduce emissions more but against our failure to produce more children”.


    In the Spectator piece, Abbott doubled down on incendiary rhetoric on people migrating or fleeing to Europe by praising Orbán, who he said “has not only transformed the economy but was the first European leader to cry ‘stop’ to the peaceful invasion of 2015 and is now trying to boost Hungary’s flagging birth rate”.

    • marty mars 27.1

      yep the sad truth is they are wasted vessels and simple dumb arse racist bigots. They are in every strata of society and they are the enemy.

    • Ad 27.2

      I covered this on Abbott and Orban and nationalist narration last week.

  25. marty mars 28

    The wonder and mystery of living to ponder these questions – amazing time to be here

    A newly-discovered comet hurtling toward the orbit of Mars has scientists scurrying to confirm whether it came from outside the solar system, a likely prospect that would make it the second such interstellar object observed in our planetary neighbourhood.

    …The trajectory of the comet, first detected by Crimean astronomer Gennady Borisov, follows a highly-curved path barrelling in the sun's direction at unusually high speeds, evidence that it originated beyond the solar system.

    …Once confirmed interstellar, the comet – dubbed C/2019 Q4 by astronomers – would become only the second such body ever observed by scientists.

    The first was a cigar-shaped comet dubbed 'Oumuamua… Unlike Oumuamua, which visited the solar system for only a week, the newly-found comet will linger near Mars' orbit for almost a year, giving scientists ample time to characterize its chemical signatures and seek further clues about its origin.

    • marty mars 28.1

      I've used this one for mindfulness – it actually is mindblowingly amazing

      The deep-sky mosaic, created from nearly 7,500 individual exposures, provides a wide portrait of the distant universe, containing 265,000 galaxies that stretch back through 13.3 billion years of time to just 500 million years after the big bang. The faintest and farthest galaxies are just one ten-billionth the brightness of what the human eye can see. The video begins with a view of the thousands of galaxies in the Hubble Ultra Deep Field and slowly zooms out to reveal the larger Hubble Legacy Field, containing 265,000 galaxies.

  26. OMFrikken GAWD! In breaking news, Aunty Beeb is reporting Kirsty Huffman has been sentenced to 14 days with the plebs! I'm not sure I can cope – does anyone know of an 0800 number I can call?

  27. joe90 30

    The ultimate gated community; neighbourhoods pooling resources to hire surveillance cameras to record every coming and going. And because neighbourhoods will own the data they'll likely be able to go full 21stC digital vigilante, collating and sharing their own shit lists. With little or no ethical or regulatory handbrake, what could possibly go wrong….?

    (of course, Peter fucking Thiel and co are in the mix, too)

    On a quiet road south of Ventura Boulevard, two cameras on a pole watch over the road, facing opposite directions.

    A block away, another brace of cameras sit sentry. Together, they constantly film the two points of entry to a closed loop of public streets in Sherman Oaks.

    Nearby, on a dual-screen setup in the basement of his hillside home, Robert Shontell pulls up hundreds of snippets of footage captured by the cameras earlier that day. Each shows a car, time-stamped and tagged with the make, model, paint color and license plate.

    He searches for a silver Honda spotted between the hours of 1 and 2 p.m. After some scrolling, a shot of my car — and me — pops up.

    • Ad 30.1

      Hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders already live in highly surveilled gated communities already, and there are massive waiting lists, and we reward them with generous stock market listings.

      Retirement villages.

      We love it.

    • OnceWasTim 30.2

      Do you think they might also set up their own fire brigade, or ambulance service, or hospital and healthcare service (going forward)? Have they considered who is going to wipe their bums in the future, or ensure the purity of their water supply or how their gorgeous shit-soaked foot-print might be disposed of? The vigilante police force and surveillance is the easiest part . Not so easy when the shit pipe gets redirected down the bolt-hole's airvent sometime in the future.

      I'm not sure they've considered the mathematics of it all

      • Graeme 30.2.1

        Don't worry OWT, soimon singing the praises of the CCP will probably have them reconsidering their position.

  28. joe90 31

    Oh yeah, bluesy, political, Roger and Pete are back!

  29. Exkiwiforces 33

    Just when you think the price of oil/ fuel was going to fall after old orange head sack the warmongering walrus. The Iranian backed rebels from Yemen full this lovely wonderful original attack using UAV’s on the Saudi’s in a swarm attack using Commercial Of Self (COS) UAV’s and Iranian built UAV’s to hit the world’s largest oil refiner.

    Welcome to hybrid Warfare folks.

  30. Late stage capitalism: this is what Saudi Prince Abdullah bin Salman does with his billions (apart from killing journalists and destroying Yemen)

  31. joe90 36

    Johnson's Torys are learning from 'Murica’s ratfuckers.

    Sept 13 (Reuters) – One of Facebook’s third-party fact-checkers accused Britain’s governing Conservative Party on Friday of misrepresenting a BBC News article in its ads on the social media platform.

    UK fact-checking charity Full Fact found that Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s party has been funding ads on Facebook that link to a BBC article with an apparently altered headline that reads “£14 billion pound cash boost for schools.”

    The actual BBC story here is headlined "School spending: Multi-billion pound cash boost announced," and instead puts the number at £7.1 billion, criticizing the government's use of £14 billion pound figure as not the usual way of calculating spending.

    At the time of writing, the various versions of the ad containing the altered headline had received somewhere between 222,000 and 510,000 impressions since 2 September. An impression is the number of times an ad appears on a screen and these numbers can includes multiple views by the same person.

    Update 13 September 2019

    We updated this fact check to incorporate the Conservative Party's response to BBC News saying that they are reviewing how advert headlines match accompanying link

  32. Eco maori 37

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    The oil barons like to manipulate the situation in the Middle East so that crude oil prices RISE mo money.

    In the near future Eco Maori will have a electric vehicle that will be powered by solar wind and micro hydro no need to worry about the fuel prices then.

    I think it's great that more Wahine are running for councillors and Mayor positions. Lisa Lewis is running for Hamilton Mayor kia kaha Eco Maori tau toko Wahine having more influence in our society.

    Congratulations to our Wahine Para Swimming Star for her recent win 4 gold medals Mana Wahine.

    Mike Mc Roberts that is a excellent way to give Mana to our elderly. A public holiday based on respecting kau matua in Japan. WE Should copy them on this idea.

    James I agree with you it's time for all Aotearoa Council to declare Human Cause Climate change and sea level rise a emergency. From my research changingt to renewable energy actually creates more local jobs a wealth for the local economy. We can easily reach A zero emissions target by 2050 We just have to plant trees in all the erosion prone places on our farms change our vehicle fleet to electricity build heaps of wind turbine and a few other minor tweeks to the way we live and walar we will be carbon neutral society.

    I agree don't heap all the blame for our emissions climbing on OUR hard working FARMERs townies have a lot to answer for on our carbon footprint rising.

    Condolences to the whanau of the person who was drowned at Te Tairawhiti Makarori beach. That was one of my easy Kai moana place not any more.

    Ka kite Ano

  33. Eco maori 38

    Our Tangaroa is a mighty force of Mana. If we don't become carbon neutral ASAP we will lose a heap of habitatable whenua to flooding.

    To become carbon neutral ASAP we NEED to take power from the climate change deniers. That phenomenon is playing out now around the Papatuanuku but we cannot rest we must keep the pressure on these people until they have to join us the futures climate champions or get left behind in OUR dust.

    Climate Lessons: Deciphering the messages of melted ice

    In Climate Lessons, a scientist explains what their research has taught them about climate change.

    The Weddell Seal pops his head up through the hole in the floor of the shipping container – for the fourth time today. The shipping container is one of several making up our field camp on sea ice, 40km from Scott Base.

    It feels as remote as anywhere. The frozen ocean surface stretches white for miles in every direction, and the distant chain of the TransAntarctic Mountains fills the westward horizon.

    The container has been modified to have a lift-out section of floor. After melting through 2 metres of sea ice we can access the ocean beneath our feet from the comfort of our warm shelter, whatever the weather

    Although our everyday experience of 'climate' is with the atmosphere, an enormous part of the story is in the ocean. The ocean makes up 70 per cent of the surface of the Earth and provides habitat for most of its life.

    And it's an extremely powerful agent for distributing heat around the globe. Just like the atmosphere, the ocean has major arterial highways that it moves heat along, with smaller circulation cells and storms (known as eddies) that move into every corner

    However, the ocean can hold as much heat in just its top 3m as the whole atmosphere stacked above it. And when you consider that the ocean averages 4km in depth, it becomes apparent what an enormous potential heat store those watery depths are.

    As of 2015, the global ocean had absorbed 93 per cent of the additional heat in the climate system resulting from human activity since the dawn of the industrial revolution. This compares with just 1 per cent taken up by the atmosphere over the same period

    Without the oceans, the atmosphere would have retained almost all of this additional heat, and the air we breathe would already be 30-50 degrees warmer. Too hot for human habitation

    So, the oceans have bought us time, but have also committed us to change over the very long term as they slowly release that heat back to the atmosphere. Or it is used to melt ice.

    So here we are – six people in a shipping container in the middle of nowhere, deciphering a message of recent ice melt, coded into temperature and salinity changes in the ocean water. We're trying to better understand exactly how the ocean affects the ice so we can better predict how the melt might speed up in the future

    Ka kite Ano link below.

  34. Eco maori 39

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    There you go Whanau a left Government admits that they handle the employees issues in correctly.

    Our armed forces must treat other people humanly that is the way the Papatuanuku expects Aotearoa to behave.

    The Asians don't muck around in building and rebuilding after a desaster those tsunami defensive sea walls look well made.

    I agree with Fish and Game Federated Farmers is a pro national organisation they will try and make mud stick against our Coalition government with anything they can dream up making a moanga out of a mole hill.

    Ka kite Ano

  35. Eco maori 40

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I agree with Jacinda things like the employees issues Our Labour Party is having at the minute can happen anywhere. It's time for men to treat Wahine as equals and not as object of desire.

    Black lives matter is a great organisation of course Black lives matter. Te Wahine is correct

    Kia Pai to the new CEO of Te puni Korokiri David Samuel's.

    Fostering young Maori leadership is needed awesome.

    Those. Tamariki waiata He paki paki mai are very telanted for there age they will climb high up there ladders of life.

    Ka kite Ano

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