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Open mike 14/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 14th, 2022 - 85 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

85 comments on “Open mike 14/11/2022 ”

  1. Jenny are we there yet 1

    The new Reich

    Dmitry Medvedev, deputy head of Russia’s Security Council and the leader of the ruling United Russia party, wrote on his Telegram channel on Saturday;

    “It is Russia who today is forming the future world order,”

    “this new equitable world order will be formed.”


    In the same post;

    Medvedev wrote that Russia has not yet used “its full arsenal” of weapons and has not struck “all potential enemy targets.” He added that “there is time for everything.”


    Medvedev makes further menacing reference to Russia's nuclear capability.

    We are capable of destroying a mighty enemy or alliances of enemies by ourselves,”


    In light of Russia's armed forces weakness and failure on the battlefield, Medvedev's comment that Russia has not used its full arsenal of weapons and his veiled threat to strike, a mighty enemy and/or alliance of enemies, that the Russian imperialists intend to continue their expansion and aggression to establish their ‘future world order’ under the cover of their nuclear umbrella.

    • Stuart Munro 1.1

      They have told themselves stories of their manifest superiority for too long, and rather than try to grow into those role models, they have rested upon them. A few political parties here have the same vice, just not yet carried to the same extremes.

    • joe90 1.2

      And look who's on their side.

      • tsmithfield 1.2.1

        I think it is time to view the Russian nuclear sabre rattling as an empty threat.

        As one commentator I heard said, the Russian narrative gets the world talking about the Russian nukes rather than the great success of the Ukrainian military.

        China has told Russia nukes are a red line for them. So, basically telling their poodle to get back in line.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.2.2

        A death cult calling for a MAD attack on Washington?

        I wonder if these people have children or anyone to cherish.

        I also wonder if there has ever been an equivalent death cult calling for a MAD strike on the Kremlin, or is this just a Russian thing?

        I notice that these protesters aren't being violently dragged into police vans.

        While these MAD protesters obviously have the support of the police and the Russian state, thank goodness this well rehearsed death cult is not representative of most Russians, many thousands of Russians have been arrested and dragged away into police vans for protesting against the war in Ukraine.

    • Adrian Thornton 1.3

      “The New Reich”….I assume you are referring to the USA…you know that ultra-aggressive world hegemony that meddles in other countries elections at will, the country with 750 military bases in 80 countries around the world..the country that the rest of the world sees as the biggest threat and road block to world peace….yeah you must be.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.3.1

        "I assume you are referring to the USA….

        ….yeah you must be."

        Only in your fevered imagination.

        Unlike you Adrian I am not a partisan supporter of one imperialist power. I am opposed to all imperialists, and always have been.

    • mikesh 1.4

      to establish their ‘future world order’ under the cover of their nuclear umbrella.

      A "new world order" does not imply that that order will be unipolar. The latter (under US hegemony) is really the USA's ambition.

      Putin has said recently that he will not use nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Do we believe him? Ukraine will have to gamble on him keeping his word since they can't reasonably back down at this stage.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.4.1

        A "new world order" does not imply that that order will be unipolar. mikesh

        Mikesh, nowhere did I imply that the Russian Federation "new world order" would be unipolar.
        The supporters of Russian and Chinese expansion and aggression allegedly want a 'multipolar world order' by the so called BRIC countries.

        Brazil, Russia, Iran, China

        The last powers to attempt to impose a new multipolar world order;

        Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain.

        • mikesh

          The US dollar is at present the world's reserve currency. The BRIC countries, understandably, would like to change that. It seems that some sort of "pandora's box" was opened when Nixon severed the US dollar from its connection with gold.

          • Jenny are we there yet

            “The US dollar is at present the world’s reserve currency.” mikesh

            So what?

            “The BRIC countries, understandably, would like to change that.” mickesh

            Sure, I can see why they might want that.

            The British Pound was once the world's default currency. Which of course must also have been annoying to Germany, Italy, and Japan.

            But the answer to British imperialism was not German imperialism, (or Japanese or Italian imperialism).

            British imperialism was not ended by German imperialism.

            What ended the British Empire were movements for national independence from British political and economic hegemony.

            US imperialism will not be ended by rival imperialists. US imperialism will be ended by movements for national independence from US political and economic hegemony.

            And Russian imperialism too, will also be ended by movements for national independence.

            We are witnessing that process unfolding in real time.

            The defeat of Russian imperialism at the hands of the Ukraine nationalist independence movement, will be a message to all imperialists and all anti-imperialists: 'Imperialism, the cause of misery and injustice all over the world, is not invulnerable.'

            The age of imperialism is passing.

            ……the British pound was once the world's de facto reserve currency, while today the U.S. dollar and Euro are regarded as reserve currencies…


  2. Sanctuary 2

    "…We left Abd el Main there and rode on past the other bodies, now seen clearly in the sunlight to be men, women, and four babies, toward the village whose loneliness we knew meant that it was full of death and horror. On the outskirts were the low mud walls of some sheep-folds, and on one lay something red and white. I looked nearer, and saw the body of a woman folded across it, face downward, nailed there by a saw-bayonet whose half stuck hideously into the air from between her naked legs. She had been pregnant, and about her were others, perhaps twenty in all, variously killed, but laid out to accord with an obscene taste. The Zaggi burst out into wild peals of laughter, in which some of those who were not sick joined hysterically. It was a sight near madness, the more desolate for the warm sunshine and the clean air of this upland afternoon. I said: "The best of you brings me the most Turkish dead"; and we turned and rode as fast as we might in the direction of the fading enemy. On our way we shot down those of them fallen out by the roadside who came imploring our pity…"

    T. E Lawrence, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

    Wikipedia tells us that in retaliation for the massacre, Lawrence's troops attacked the withdrawing Turkish columns, and for the first time in the war ordered his men to take no prisoners.

    Need we question the wisdom of Lawrence of Arabia when dealing with savages such as the Wagner Group?

    • Adrian Thornton 2.1

      @ Sanctuary…So just to be clear, and we can all understand exactly what you are stating here on TS…it seems that you are saying that when any soldier from the Wagner Group are captured, they should be executed immediately by their captors?..is that what you just said?

      • Sanctuary 2.1.1

        The Ukraine has shown remarkable constraint in it's treatment of Russian POWs compared to barbarism of it's opponents, which is to be commended. They must consider the treatment of their ownmen held by the Russians – they are already subject to torture and indignities.

        To be honest, I wonder if I could be so magnaminous to captured members of an organisation whose ranks are filled by criminals and brutalised mercenaries who have been ravaging my homeland.

        The only WW2 old soldier I ever talked to on the subject made it reasonably clear to me that as far as he was concerned (he was an Anders Army/Polish paratrooper) anyone from the SS they took prisoner would count himself extrememly fortunate to survive the event.

        So I am not saying you shoot Fascist Russia's Waffen SS equivalent out of hand as policy, that would be awful. But personally I would not be too inclined to hang onto to any of them if it was any sort of inconvenience whatsoever. As mercenaries, IMHO they have forfeited that right.

        • Adrian Thornton

          That's funny because that is exactly what your comment implies….what nuance did I miss?

          "Wikipedia tells us that in retaliation for the massacre, Lawrence's troops attacked the withdrawing Turkish columns, and for the first time in the war ordered his men to take no prisoners.

          Need we question the wisdom of Lawrence of Arabia when dealing with savages such as the Wagner Group?"

          And Ukrainian forces have also committed plenty of war crime of that you can be sure..

          "Each soldier who got out of the van got a bullet to the knee from an assault rifle, whereas they were defenseless and tied up. I have videos showing this. Otherwise, I would not allow myself to make such allegations, showing Russian soldiers getting bullets in the knee. … And the ones who unfortunately decided to say, “I am an officer,” they got a bullet to the head."


          • Stuart Munro

            Ukrainian neo-Nazi militias armed by NATO against Russia

            So you've found unicorns – maybe the next story will include dragons.

            • Adrian Thornton

              If you really believe that in what is total war in the Ukraine, that both sides are not now and have not been involved in war crimes, then your understanding/knowledge of history and war is even worse than I already know it is….but then again, with your long history here on TS in totally believing without question pretty much any and all liberal propaganda… believing in, and then vigorously debating the existence of unicorns and dragons here on TS wouldn't be that much of leap from where you are sitting right now…you have done worse.

              • Stuart Munro

                Unlike Putin dupes, I try not to believe too much in the absence of evidence.

                No doubt there have been incidents on both sides – but the preponderance certainly lies with the invaders – Ukrainian forces having no civilians to abuse.

                But of course, as one of the most credulous lackeys mindlessly repeating Putin's propaganda the cognitive dissonance in admitting you are on the wrong side is doubtless more than your ego can stand.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  "Ukrainian forces having no civilians to abuse"…have you any understanding to what is going on in the Ukraine at all, that this conflict has been going on as a civil war since 2014?…obviously not.

                  Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces

                  Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

                  Maybe you should take the time to read this extract from Amnesty….you do understand that everyone from all sides are lying at full volume right?

                  "Each side has made allegations against the other of extrajudicial killings and other grave human rights abuses, which have been extensively broadcast in the Ukrainian and Russian media. Many of these reports, however, have been poorly substantiated or unsubstantiated.
                  Even in cases where the allegations have some basis in reality, their scale has often been considerably exaggerated"


                  • Stuart Munro

                    Actually, I have been following Putin's atrocities since he inveigled his way into power, you sweet summer child.

                    Civil war eh? Funny name for an insurgency.

                    Many of these reports, however, have been poorly substantiated or unsubstantiated.

                    Yes, funny that – Russia can make stuff up faster than the facts can be verified:

                    There was the dirty bomb.

                    And the Dniper dam story.

                    And a personal favourite, the lie (which you swallowed like a gullible guppy) about MH17.

                    There is no lie so outlandish that, if Putin utters it, you will not swallow it. That's how you earned the title of Putin dupe.

                  • Jenny are we there yet

                    "….you do understand that everyone from all sides are lying at full volume right?" Adrian Thornton

                    Maybe you are right about that, Adrian.

                    For instance, you could bring up some horrific alleged atrocity committed by Ukraine, and I could best you with some other alleged atrocity committed by Russia. And we could play that stupid game all day long. And at this far distance never being able to attain the truth.

                    Which is why I don't refer to, or argue about disputed atrocities.

                    Only to war crimes that can't be disputed, or denied as never having happened.

                    The numerous Russian missiles that have been captured in photos and video slamming into apartment buildings.
                    The deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure, admitted by Russia. Why waste my breath arguing with you about Bucha or any other atrocity, When the deliberate destruction of civilian homes and infrastructure is a war crime openly admitted to by Russia.

                    Ukraine didn't invade Russia, Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia is the aggressor in this war.

                    Adrian as you are a big time supporter of the Russian aggression against Ukraine.

                    Can you answer these two simple questions for me;

                    Do you support slamming missiles into apartment buildings?

                    Do you support the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure like power and water utilities with bombs and missiles?

                    My guess; You will ignore both these questions. And you will keep ignoring them.

                    Which is why I will make it my mission to keep asking you them.

                    I want to be able to determine the depth of your depravity. So expect me Adrian, to be asking you these two questions every time that you raise some specious argument in support of the bloody invasion and war of aggression against Ukraine by the Russian Federation.

                    Do you Adrian Thornton support slamming missiles into apartment buildings?

                    Do you support the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure?

          • Sanctuary

            Before you decide to die on a hill for Putin's Dirlewanger Brigade I suggest you research why a sledgehammer was the chosen method of execution.

            I hope you've got a strong stomach.

            • Adrian Thornton

              You aren’t going to get out of this one so easily my friend…

              What I am doing Sanctuary, is establishing for everyone here on TS to see and understand, is where your moral compass is pointing, and as I have suspected for a long time it points down…you have out in the open, advocated for the summery execution of prisoners of war.

              You know there was a good reason why I used to describe you Liberal neo-imperialist war hawks as ‘Camp Guards” (which I am no longer allowed to do)..that was because it describes you lot perfectly…march to the step of propaganda in perfect time, and as you have just confessed here today, use extreme violence when rallied by that same propaganda to do so..pretty unsettling stuff.

              • Tony Veitch

                Harrowing scenes on TV tonight as the people of Kherson reacted to the arrival of their 'oppressors' in the shape of Ukrainian soldiers.

                Hell, they even tried to poison them with bouquets of flowers!


        • mikesh

          Ukraine is being backed by the West, and is dependent on the West for the supply of weaponry, so I guess it has to be remain "squeaky clean". Or am I just being cynical ?

          • Adrian Thornton

            "Or am I just being cynical ?"….no you are being naive….since when has 'The West' cared about war crimes committed under it's name?

            U.S. Pulls Out of War Crimes Court, Fearing Easy Political Prosecutions

            • Sanctuary

              "…since when has 'The West' cared about war crimes committed under it's name…"

              Absolutely ridiculous whataboutism.

              Have you seen what remain of Mariupol or Severdonesk? How did Grozny look after the Russian way of war had finished with it? How do you think the civilian population of Al-Fallujah would have fared if it had been the Russians and not the Americans clearing the city? For all their sins, western armies gave up leveling heavily populated civilian areas with massive amounts of indiscriminate heavy artillery fire seventy years ago, and the mis-treatment of prisoners by western special forces has led to numerous scandals.

              Do you really think that if a bunch of our SAS guys uploaded to Youtube a celebratory video of them proudly smashing a Syrian captives hands and feet with a sledgehammer before cutting said limbs off with a saw and finally executing their victim by smashing his brains out with the sledgehammer, cutting off what is left of the head and offering one final indignity of of buring the corpse we'd all just go around saying "Ah, such is the SAS way of execution!" and happily watch them all getting promoted?

              The Wagner group is full of monsters who deserve whatever they get.

              • Adrian Thornton

                The thing is Sanctuary, you have proven today, that when push comes to shove you would most probably be just like them, that's the irony, and that is probably what triggers you so much.…do you really think that once you had given the green light to dehumanize a body of humans so that they can be executed without remorse, this despicable crime that you are so keen on, that they would all just get a clean bullet through the back of the head? of course not…you are a fucking maniac.

            • Stuart Munro

              Since My Lai at least.

              Were you to try to point to a comparable incident where Russia admitted culpability however, you would come up short.

              They are still in their infallible phase.

              • Sanctuary

                My Lai is a neat illustration of the difference actually. First, the massacre was stopped by actions of a passing helicopter pilot, who at one stage threatened his own side with his machine gun. Second, it caused all operations in the area tobe cancelled as the US forces were effectivly deemed to ill disciplined to continue, third all the ringleaders were tried (albeit acquitted), fourth their was a humoungous and debilitating scandal over the massacre and fifthly, Hugh Thompson Jr and his helicopter crew were ultimately decorated for their actions.

                Not one of those five things would occur in Putin's army, let alone the Wagner group.

                • aj

                  My Lai

                  And any reporter who got a similar story out today would likely find himself in a cell next to Assange. How far the mighty have fallen.

                  This is a recent interview, handy if you have a bit of French to get the questions.

            • mikesh

              It has been said that America lost in Vietnam because that war was the first war to be televised, and thus the American public were able to see the atrocities that were being committed in their name.

              • Stuart Munro

                That was a comforting fiction, like the contemporary Russian one that they are being defeated by Nato mercenaries rather than the despised khokhols. The Vietnamese fought a superpower to a standstill.

        • Adrian Thornton

          And of course you used T.E Lawrence as example of your justified righteous retribution, a perfect choice coming from you…a great white man solving coloured people’s problems for them…I really don’t think you are even aware of the racism that so deeply embedded within the very fabric of the world outlook and ideology you promote so passionately….maybe one day you will have an epiphany around this, but I doubt it.

          • Stuart Munro

            I really don’t think you are even aware of the racism that so deeply embedded within the very fabric of the world

            White Russian racism you mean? It's a feature of the regime you shill for.

            Racist attacks and killings of foreigners and ethnic minorities are reported with shocking regularity in Russia and, disturbingly, their frequency seems to be increasing. Amnesty.

            • In Vino

              I have stayed out of this debate for a long time, thinking that history is going to make one of two utterly convinced sides look very silly.

              But Stuart – I felt wary when you first quoted T E Lawrence. In literature he is a recognised giant. Unfortunately, in racism, some have found a patronising element in his works..

              Are you recognising that Lawrence was racist in his attitude to inferior Arabs? It sounds to me as if you are equating what you call White Russian racism with Lawrence's racism.

              In the rush of things, did you intend it that way?

              • Stuart Munro

                I'm a fan of Lawrence, having read it with an Algerian student back in the day – though it was Sanctuary that raised him on this occasion.

                Lawrence was a thorough Arabophile, which was how it was that he was a fluent Arabic speaker (likely the only truly fluent British officer of the period). He sympathized with the Arab cause, and bitterly resented the Sykes-Picot treaty which subjugated them once more to the commercial interests of Britain and France. It reneged upon the UK's promises to Arabs, which Lawrence had vouched for, dishonouring him. This led him to retire from public life – he felt disgraced.

                Lawrence was a 'white saviour', which people of colour are not presently fond of. But it requires a considerable stretch to call him a racist – he was infinitely more pro-Arab than was usual in his day. He had completed his degree on the Crusader castles of the region, and had traveled to them, making him knowledgeable of the terrain and its strategic consequences. As the champion of the Arabic cause within the army, and the conduit for arms and materiale to Arabic forces, who were revolting against a Turkish rule that had conducted a number of genocides, Lawrence to a large extent made the revolt happen.

                A degree of patronizing was probably inevitable. Lawrence did his degree at Oxford, but many of the men he led were illiterate. When they made unenlightened errors, like the fellow that quarreled with and murdered a fellow Arab soldier, Lawrence was obliged to deal with it. He summarily executed the murderer, and his troops were satisfied enough that further animosity did not develop. A less honest narrator might not have recorded the incident.

                Russian racism is far cruder stuff.

  3. Ad 3

    Anyone wants to bathe in a warm soapy shower of cleansing schadenfreude, check out MSNBC smiling all the way through the Democrats taking the Senate and Kelly Lake getting done like a political dinner.

    Here we are on Fox a few days ago.

    (384) ‘SNL’ mocks Biden, Democrats before midterms: ‘Big Yikes’ – YouTube

    You can check out MSNBC any time for the fun they are having now.

    Bet McCarthy gets rolled for a start.

  4. arkie 4

    Power companies have been paying out billions more in dividends than they've been making in profits, driving up electricity prices, union researchers have found.

    The report – co-authored by First Union, the Council of Trade Unions, and climate group 350 – calls for the payouts to instead be channelled into building renewable generating capacity.

    The paper also recommends a windfall tax.

    From 2014 to 2021, Contact, Genesis, Mercury and Meridian paid shareholders $8.7 billion in dividends, the report said. That's despite recording a total profit of just $5.35b over that period.


    This is where price inflation comes from, capital accumulation of the 'investor' class.

    Taxation could help to redistribute this accumulation: https://www.greens.org.nz/excess_profits_tax

    • alwyn 4.1

      It's a bit late.

      Grant Robertson, who will have received more than half the amount, has been like Billy Bunter with his pocket money purchases.

      He has already eaten the lot.

    • roy cartland 4.2

      I was going to post this as well. Can some smart person, in good faith of course, explain why we need to do this again? Line the pockets of shareholders? How is that better than not doing it?

    • mikesh 4.3

      This is where price inflation comes from, capital accumulation of the 'investor' class.

      Oh my gosh! And I thought inflation was all Adrian Orr's fault. Irony is a wonderful device.

  5. Ad 5

    Would it not be useful for us plebs to see Musk's Twitter empire burnt to the ground in $US44b of warm ash?

    Every oligarch should be humbled.

    • roy cartland 5.1

      Sure, but wasn't it you worrying about the job losses this would cause?

    • Nic the NZer 5.2

      I'm pretty sure literally burning $44 billion in cash would be a slower process than how Musk is proceeding.

      • alwyn 5.2.1

        Let's see.

        The biggest denomination I can think of would be the Singapore $10,000 note. That is about $8,000 US dollars. $44 billion US would therefore be about 5.5 million notes

        That is a pile of notes about 6 kilometres high and would weigh about 5,500 kg (if I have done the maths properly).

        I think you are right. It would take a very long time to get it all burnt with even the largest circulating note wouldn't it? Perhaps we could approach the BOE and see if they would supply us with some Titans. They are a (non-circulating) note worth 100 million pounds and are the backing for the Scottish and Norther Irish banknotes. We would only need a few hundred of them.

    • Stuart Munro 5.3

      There are some splendid tweets coming out from blue ticked authors:

      Chiquita: We've just overthrown the government of Brazil.

      Chiquita: We apologize to those who have been served a misleading message from a fake Chiquita account. We haven't overthrown a government since 1954.

  6. mosa 6

    " Behind the headline “$200m boost for new homes” is a sordid tale of a government demolishing state houses, selling most of the land to private property developers and in this case building fewer state houses than were previously there "

    If a National government was doing this Megan Woods would be raging and demanding the resignation of the minister. If only.


  7. Maurice 7

    Who can really Grok the whims of multi-billionaires?

    Perhaps burning Twitter to the ground is just too much "fun" to resist???

  8. X Socialist 8

    Three Waters has become Five Waters? What's going on? Democracy? What democracy! The most important general election in New Zealand's history happens next year, folks.


    ''The really radical move in the report — also overlooked entirely by Jack Tame on TVNZ’s Q&A and by Andrew Dickens interviewing Mahuta for Newstalk ZB — was the proposed extension to the scope of Te Mana o Te Wai statements.

    Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region. That right is denied to non-Maori, who make up the remaining 84 per cent of the population.

    The select committee has proposed that such statements, issued exclusively by iwi, should apply not only to freshwater but coastal and geothermal water as well.''


    • observer 8.1

      You are apparently a stranger to logic, but you could at least read what you post:

      Democracy? What democracy! The most important general election in New Zealand's history happens next year

      It's now obvious that you are some kind of Alan Partridge comedy turn, but the script needs work.

      • X Socialist 8.1.1

        Yes, I see my mistake. Irony and a host of other givens aren't in your tool box. Please forgive me. Btw… anything to add to the subject matter? Take your time.frown

    • Incognito 8.2

      Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region. That right is denied to non-Maori, who make up the remaining 84 per cent of the population. [my italics]

      The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed. Moreover, your comment is nothing but fear mongering without making a decent argument at all. Lift your game here or go back to the Platform where you might feel more at home anyway.

      • alwyn 8.2.1

        "The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed". Pray enlighten us. What is flawed? Is the statement false? Will iwi not be able to issue edicts? Will they not be binding?

      • X Socialist 8.2.2

        ''The premise of the Platform plonker (?) ''

        Contributing writer like MS is on this blog. The difference is I don't call Mickey a plonker just because I disagree with everything he writes. Ok, 95% of what he writes.

        The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed. Moreover, your comment is nothing but fear mongering without making a decent argument at all.

        The 'premise' around this issue seems to be fluid. Please explain where our premise may be wrong. I would much rather be wrong and have Five Waters drop back to Three Waters. There is no fear mongering. The contributing writer has written a reasonable article that you are free to correct. I have provided a link.

        Three Waters has morphed following recommendations of a proposed extension to the scope of Te Mana o Te Wai statements.

        • Incognito

          The problem with people like you who ‘read’ the Platform and listen to talk-back shock-jocks is that they turn off their brain. Here’s a hint: region vs. general population. Did you see a light flash?

          • X Socialist


            • Incognito

              Do you understand what Three Waters reforms propose with regards to loco-regional management of water resources? It seems that you and – from what I could gather from your quoted text – that Platform plonker have the wrong idea(s) (aka premise). For example, do you think that central government/Government is going to take over all management and this is what this Government is proposing? Or do you think that Maori will be in charge?

              • X Socialist

                ''Do you understand what Three Waters reforms propose with regards to loco-regional management of water resources?''

                Well, for a while I thought I had a general understanding of what Three Waters reforms entailed. However, now I'm not so sure, for the simple reason when it comes to Maori, the sky seems to be the limit regardless of what community, regional and Tauiwi groups have been assured under this proposed legislation.


                ''What are the new opportunities for iwi/Māori?

                There are several new areas of opportunity for iwi/Māori:

                • Oversight – Mana whenua will participate in the joint oversight of the new entities. Representative interests will need to be determined by Māori for Māori through a Kaupapa Māori process. In some entity areas these processes have begun. More detail on this will be available over the coming months.
                • New entity operation – The proposed water services entities will be required to have significant cultural and local expertise. This will provide local opportunities for Māori to participate in the new delivery arrangements.
                • Te Mana o Te Wai – the reform will provide for local expression of Te Mana o Te Wai that will enable development of Mauri frameworks, application of mātauranga Māori measurement or any other expression that iwi decide is relevant to them.
                • Local opportunities – Economic analysis projects that the reforms will create 6,000 to 9,000 jobs over the next 30 years and that reforms will grow GDP by $14 billion to $23 billion over the next 30 years. Iwi/Māori will have the ability to participate in delivery of this investment in local infrastructure.'


                Too many vague concepts that cannot be quantified into legal frame works in my opinion. Nothing is concrete, and as the latest report has shown, can be modified at a whim under the guise of 'culture.'

                It has been reported that Labour was helped to power by some farmers/ right leaning voters wanting the Greens locked out of power. To me, the differences between grassroot Labour and National voters isn't great. Labour is dreaming if they don't believe their grassroot voters have major reservations about Three Waters. Just like some voters swallowed a dead rat to keep the Greens out of power, I'm betting some on the Left will do likewise regarding Three Waters.

                • Incognito

                  It is as vague or clear as Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which is at the basis of much that is proposed in the Three Waters reforms. When it gets too hard, don’t start shouting Democracy? What democracy! and other nonsense about the demographics of the general population (a major red herring and red flag).

                  Similarly, labelling (or fobbing off, by some) Te Tiriti o Waitangi as ‘culture’ seems deliberately demeaning and is not helpful either.

                  Having reservations about new frameworks for fresh water management and new forms of (local) democracy is one thing but wilful ignorance is another. The latter leads to closed minds, bias, polarisation, and division.

                  Using Three Waters reforms as a political pawn is a sure way of stuffing up everything for little short-term political gain – the real issues will remain and likely get worse, like so many others such as actions against climate change and/or risk mitigation and resilience measures.

                  Lastly, they are proposals under active consideration, i.e., things are being shaped still, so perhaps it is a little premature to assume worst-case scenarios and other dystopian fantasies aka fear-mongering unless that’s (part of) one’s agenda …

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.3

      Adams' opinion is so 'Kiwi not Iwi'. Iwi eh, always pinching our stuff – fearful businesssmiley

  9. alwyn 9

    Perhaps this picture of President Biden and PM Ardern would make a caption competition.


    My suggestion would be "Young lady. Can you tell me which of these forks I use for the salad course? I never can remember."

  10. Ad 10

    With the Chair of Auckland Unlimited dying overnight, Mayor Brown just got delivered a governance gift to not reappoint, then disestablish, and then gut.

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  • Next Ambassador to Argentina announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Kathryn Beckett as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Argentina. “Aotearoa New Zealand enjoys a friendly and cooperative relationship with Argentina,” Nanaia Mahuta said.  “We work particularly closely together on issues key to New Zealand’s multilateral agenda, such as climate change, human ...
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    16 hours ago
  • Assistance to Ukraine extended and enhanced
    New Zealand is extending its defence commitments and providing further support and personnel to assist Ukraine, as part of the Government’s ongoing response to Russia’s illegal and unprovoked invasion. The NZ Defence Force infantry training for Ukrainian military personnel in the United Kingdom will be extended. There is more funding ...
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    16 hours ago
  • 2000 visas a year to be granted through resumption of parent category
    The Government is ensuring skilled migrants can resettle in Aotearoa New Zealand with their families, Immigration Minister Michael Wood announced today. “We recognise the importance for migrants resettling here to have a pathway for their parents to join them,” Michael Wood said. “We are resuming selections of the Parent Category ...
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    20 hours ago
  • Appointment of Judge and Associate Judge of the High Court
    High Court Associate Judge Peter Andrew has been appointed a Judge of the High Court, and Tauranga King’s Counsel Grant Brittain has been appointed an Associate Judge of the High Court, Attorney‑General David Parker announced today. Justice Andrew graduated from the University of Otago in 1984 with a BA and an ...
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    20 hours ago
  • Govt’s economic recovery continues with 20,000 Flexi-Wage placements
    20,589 people supported into jobs through Flexi-Wage 37 per cent of participants identified as Māori, 13 per cent Pacific 88% of those on benefit for 2+ years at referral are current, completed or finished early and are not currently on benefit. 2478 participants (12 per cent) have a health condition, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    24 hours ago
  • Prime Minister attends East Asia Summit
    The Prime Minister has wrapped up meetings in Cambodia with her Indo-Pacific counterparts at the annual meeting of the East Asia Summit (EAS) and the Second ASEAN Global Dialogue on Post-COVID-19 Comprehensive Recovery.  Leaders from ASEAN nations as well as Australian Prime Minister Albanese, US President Biden, Republic of Korea ...
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    1 day ago
  • ASEAN trade deal upgrade boost for exporters
    New Zealand’s new free trade agreement upgrade with the Association of South East Asian Nations and Australia has been announced today by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.  “As the world feels the impact of global economic pressures, the importance of securing high-quality, modern free trade agreements is essential to the economic ...
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    2 days ago
  • Auckland now Australasia’s most connected city to North America
    Today’s arrival of the first direct Air Canada flight from Vancouver in almost two years means Auckland Airport is now the most connected airport to North America across the whole of Australasia, Stuart Nash said today. “This addition to North American airline capacity is another welcome step in our tourism ...
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    3 days ago
  • Joint Statement: Ministerial Statement on the Importance of Fossil Fuel Subsidy Reform at a Time of ...
    The Friends of Fossil Fuel Subsidy Reform (Costa Rica, Denmark[1], Ethiopia, Finland, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and Uruguay) We reflect on the urgency of phasing out inefficient fossil fuel subsidies given the current climate crisis and in an effort to limiting global average temperatures to 1.5°C above pre-industrial ...
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    3 days ago
  • NGO Hui, Locally led development and amplifying Pacific voices Location: National Library, Tiakiw...
    Tēnā koutou katoa, talofa lava, warm Pacific greetings to you all. Thank you for joining us for the 2022 MFAT-NGO Hui-ā-tau — annual hui. This is the first time in three years that we have gathered kānohi-ki-te-kānohi for this event. I am delighted to be here, today, to lend my ...
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    4 days ago
  • ‘Celebrating New Zealand’s Diplomatic Relations – Global Connections and Diversity through...
    Warm pacific greetings to each of you. First of all, I want to offer my deepest condolences to families of those who lost their lives, those who were injured, and the families and friends of all involved in the tragic incident in Seoul on 29 October. The thoughts of the ...
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    4 days ago
  • Iwi and Government partnership delivers homes for Ngāti Whakaue
    The first of many builds for Ngāti Whakaue Lands Trust was delivered today with Associate Minister of Housing (Māori Housing) Peeni Henare attending the opening of  eight affordable whānau homes. “House by house, whānau by whānau, we are working together to address housing needs. Ngati Whākaue are walking the talk ...
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    4 days ago
  • Changes make water reforms more workable for communities and councils
    The Government has welcomed proposed recommendations to improve the workability of water reform legislation. At a time when the cost of living challenges confronting households is real, these reforms will help lessen the burden of necessary water infrastructure investment on ratepayers. Parliament’s cross-party Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back ...
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    4 days ago
  • Appointment of King’s Counsel
    Attorney-General David Parker has announced the appointment of 10 King’s Counsel. “The criteria for appointment recognise that excellence and leadership in the profession should be viewed through a wider, community lens.  I am pleased to see that the profession continues to make a good contribution to access to justice, which ...
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    4 days ago
  • ​​​​​​​New board members for Te Whatu Ora and Te Aka Whai Ora
    GP Dr Jeff Lowe and former Inland Revenue Commissioner Naomi Ferguson have been appointed to the board of the organisation that runs the country’s public hospitals, Te Whatu Ora – Health New Zealand. Health Minister Andrew Little announced their appointments today, along with the appointment of Steven McJorrow (Ngāti Kahungunu) ...
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    4 days ago
  • New financing arrangements to continue to deliver Kāinga Ora build programme
    “In the last five years Kāinga Ora has delivered over 8,370 newly built homes, over 900 retrofits and is overseeing the biggest urban development programme since the 1970s, with programmes like Large Scale Projects,” Megan Woods said. “To ensure Kāinga Ora can expand this work further, Cabinet agreed to increase ...
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    4 days ago
  • Targeting hardship: more funding to Porirua development
    The Government is committing to more transformative improvements to housing and critical infrastructure in eastern Porirua says Housing Minister Dr Megan Woods, announcing a further $204 million in funding to advance urban development there. “Eastern Porirua has strong and vibrant communities, but it is in critical need of investment and ...
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    5 days ago
  • Significant communications investment to keep emergency responders and the public safe
    A new digital communications network for emergency service workers will roll out from next year, marking the most significant advance in New Zealand’s public safety communications in decades, Police Minister Chris Hipkins announced today.  The Public Safety Network will deliver emergency services with a single secure digital radio network and ...
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    5 days ago
  • Innovation fund for tourism opens
    Applications are now open for the Innovation Programme for Tourism Recovery that will support unique and transformative ideas that will improve our tourism sector.  “We want to see projects that are sustainable, low carbon and that can deliver on our goals for a high skilled and high wage sector.  “Successful ...
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    5 days ago
  • Experts appointed to guide Māori-led climate action
    Climate Change Minister James Shaw has today announced a new Interim Ministerial Advisory Committee to develop a framework for Te Ao Māori responses to the climate crisis.  Promised as part of the Emissions Reduction Plan, a Māori ‘climate action platform’ will help ensure whānau, hapū and iwi are at the ...
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    5 days ago
  • Education funds well spent on Pacific learners
    An interim evaluation Report on Pacific Education Support and Innovation funds has found that many of the education projects led by Pacific Providers have been extremely effective, said Hon Aupito Willam Sio. The Ministry of Education’s Action Plan for Pacific Education (2020) included a focus on working with diverse Pacific ...
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    5 days ago
  • NZ-UK Free Trade Agreement a step closer to ratification
    The benefits of New Zealand’s free trade agreement (FTA) with the United Kingdom are now a step closer with the passing of two Bills, Minister for Trade and Export Growth Damien O’Connor said. The United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement Legislation Bill and the Apple Transitional Export Quota Bill passed their third ...
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    5 days ago
  • Govt moves to introduce open banking to give customers a better deal
    The Government has announced moves to increase bank competition and deliver a better deal for New Zealanders with the introduction of open banking, Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs David Clark announced today. Last July, the Government agreed to establish a consumer data right framework (CDR) which would require data ...
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    5 days ago
  • New Zealand ranked first in Sustainable Trade Index
    Minister for Trade and Export Growth, Damien O’Connor said New Zealand achieving first place in the 2022 Sustainable Trade Index indicates the country is on the right track for our economic recovery and future economic security. The Sustainable Trade Index, launched in Singapore overnight by the Hinrich Foundation and the International ...
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    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister to attend EAS, APEC leaders’ meetings
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern will travel to Cambodia to attend the annual East Asia Summit (EAS), ahead of representing New Zealand at APEC Economic Leaders Week in Thailand. “Reconnecting New Zealand with the world while actively strengthening partnerships between government, business and industry is an essential part of our economic recovery ...
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    6 days ago
  • New Ambassador to Egypt announced
    Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Amy Laurenson as New Zealand’s next ambassador to Cairo, Egypt. “Aotearoa New Zealand has a constructive and long-standing relationship with Egypt. They are a prominent regional leader and we appreciate their perspectives on issues in the Middle East and across Africa,” Nanaia Mahuta ...
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    6 days ago
  • Charities Registration Board chair reappointed
    Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, Priyanca Radhakrishnan, has announced the reappointment of Gwendoline Keel as chair of the Charities Registration Board Te Rātā Atawhai. “Gwendoline’s legal knowledge, experience in kaupapa Māori organisations and involvement as a board member, provide her with a solid foundation to continue as board ...
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    6 days ago
  • Speech at the Ministry of Justice Operations, Service and Delivery Leader’s Forum, Te Papa, Wellin...
    As Minister for Courts, I am very pleased to be here today and help to acknowledge the work of the Operations and Service Delivery team, within the Ministry of Justice. Operational Service Delivery is a crucial part of the Ministry of Justice, without you the judiciary and the Government would ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Community fund to support vital work in biodiversity battle
    A fund for community-led efforts to protect threatened species and at-risk cultural heritage has opened for applications today, the Acting Minister of Conservation Meka Whaitiri has announced. The Department of Conservation’s Community Fund will make $9.2 million available for community conservation groups nationwide in the next year, supporting critical, grassroots ...
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    6 days ago
  • Fuel markets to become more resilient, sustainable and competitive
    The Government is strengthening New Zealand’s fuel sector through a suite of initiatives to increase supply resilience and sustainability, and to encourage more competition, the Energy and Resources Minister Dr Megan Woods has announced. “These improvements will pave the way for a more stable, low-emissions fuel supply, greater choices for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand push for global action at COP27 on climate loss and damage
    Aotearoa New Zealand is supporting countries to deal with the impacts of loss and damage from climate change, as the UN climate conference COP27 gets underway in Egypt. The Government has announced a dedicated allocation of NZ$20 million climate funding to address loss and damage in developing countries. It delivers on ...
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    6 days ago
  • Govt acts to help small businesses get paid on time
    New measures to help small businesses get paid on time are one step closer as the Business Payment Practices Bill passed its first reading today. “Timely payment for goods and services is crucial for the financial health of any business. Small businesses in particular are less resilient to poor payment ...
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    6 days ago
  • Modernised border experience on the way for travellers
    A safer and smarter border experience is a step closer after the Customs and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill passed its first reading in Parliament. The Bill amends the Customs and Excise Act 2018 to make the obligations for arrival information clearer. Customs Minister Meka Whaitiri said it will improve ...
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    7 days ago
  • Acoustic wool panels the latest innovation for New Zealand strong wool
    A New Zealand company with backing from the Government, has successfully developed a world-first fire resistant, acoustic wall panel for commercial interiors made entirely from New Zealand strong wool, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced.  “T&R Interior Systems Limited (T&R) has spent the past two years refining its wool panels to ...
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    7 days ago
  • Phil Twyford to progress ASEAN trade upgrade talks
    Minister of State for Trade and Export Growth Phil Twyford will travel tomorrow to Cambodia for trade negotiations with the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN). “Making sure we have high-quality trade deals in place which ensure New Zealand businesses continue to grow in key markets is central to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Financial Intelligence Unit Conference – Russia sanctions
    Mihi Whakataka te hau ki te uru, Whakataka te hau ki te tonga. Kia mākinakina ki uta, Kia mātaratara ki tai. E hī ake ana te atakura. He tio, he huka, he hauhū Tihei Mauri Ora! Tena koutou katoa. Introduction Tēnā koutou katoa Thank you for inviting me to join ...
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    7 days ago
  • NZ’s resilience to supply chain disruptions to be investigated
    The Government has asked the Productivity Commission to hold an inquiry into the resilience of the New Zealand economy to supply chain disruptions. “The shock to the global economy over the last three years from the COVID pandemic has been considerable. While New Zealand’s supply chains have shown resilience, there ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Govt books resilient amid challenging global times
    The resilient economy and the Government’s responsible financial management means New Zealand is well positioned to respond to a difficult and challenging global environment. For the three months to the end of September, the Operating Balance before Gains and Losses (OBEGAL) recorded a deficit of $2.6 billion, a little higher ...
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    7 days ago
  • Adrian Orr reappointed as Reserve Bank Governor
    Adrian Orr has been reappointed as Reserve Bank Governor. “Following the Reserve Bank Board’s unanimous recommendation to me, I am pleased to reappoint Adrian for another five-year term, effective from 27 March 2023,” Grant Robertson said. “The Reserve Bank has been undergoing a considerable period of change since Adrian’s appointment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Minister completes tour of 54 rural and provincial councils
    Kieran McAnulty has met 54 rural and provincial councils in his new role as Minister of Emergency Management, Associate Minister of Local Government, and Associate Minister of Transport. “It was really important to me that I got out within the first few months of becoming a Minister to meet all ...
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    1 week ago