Open mike 14/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 14th, 2022 - 85 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

85 comments on “Open mike 14/11/2022 ”

  1. Jenny are we there yet 1

    The new Reich

    Dmitry Medvedev, deputy head of Russia’s Security Council and the leader of the ruling United Russia party, wrote on his Telegram channel on Saturday;

    “It is Russia who today is forming the future world order,”

    “this new equitable world order will be formed.”

    https://www.rt.com/russia/566401-medvedev-nato-russia-alone/

    In the same post;

    Medvedev wrote that Russia has not yet used “its full arsenal” of weapons and has not struck “all potential enemy targets.” He added that “there is time for everything.”

    https://www.rt.com/russia/566401-medvedev-nato-russia-alone/

    Medvedev makes further menacing reference to Russia's nuclear capability.

    We are capable of destroying a mighty enemy or alliances of enemies by ourselves,”

    https://www.rt.com/russia/566401-medvedev-nato-russia-alone/

    In light of Russia's armed forces weakness and failure on the battlefield, Medvedev's comment that Russia has not used its full arsenal of weapons and his veiled threat to strike, a mighty enemy and/or alliance of enemies, that the Russian imperialists intend to continue their expansion and aggression to establish their ‘future world order’ under the cover of their nuclear umbrella.

    • Stuart Munro 1.1

      They have told themselves stories of their manifest superiority for too long, and rather than try to grow into those role models, they have rested upon them. A few political parties here have the same vice, just not yet carried to the same extremes.

      • tsmithfield 1.2.1

        I think it is time to view the Russian nuclear sabre rattling as an empty threat.

        As one commentator I heard said, the Russian narrative gets the world talking about the Russian nukes rather than the great success of the Ukrainian military.

        China has told Russia nukes are a red line for them. So, basically telling their poodle to get back in line.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.2.2

        A death cult calling for a MAD attack on Washington?

        I wonder if these people have children or anyone to cherish.

        I also wonder if there has ever been an equivalent death cult calling for a MAD strike on the Kremlin, or is this just a Russian thing?

        I notice that these protesters aren't being violently dragged into police vans.

        While these MAD protesters obviously have the support of the police and the Russian state, thank goodness this well rehearsed death cult is not representative of most Russians, many thousands of Russians have been arrested and dragged away into police vans for protesting against the war in Ukraine.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqS1l3wWVa8

    • Adrian Thornton 1.3

      “The New Reich”….I assume you are referring to the USA…you know that ultra-aggressive world hegemony that meddles in other countries elections at will, the country with 750 military bases in 80 countries around the world..the country that the rest of the world sees as the biggest threat and road block to world peace….yeah you must be.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.3.1

        "I assume you are referring to the USA….

        ….yeah you must be."

        Only in your fevered imagination.

        Unlike you Adrian I am not a partisan supporter of one imperialist power. I am opposed to all imperialists, and always have been.

    • mikesh 1.4

      to establish their ‘future world order’ under the cover of their nuclear umbrella.

      A "new world order" does not imply that that order will be unipolar. The latter (under US hegemony) is really the USA's ambition.

      Putin has said recently that he will not use nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Do we believe him? Ukraine will have to gamble on him keeping his word since they can't reasonably back down at this stage.

      • Jenny are we there yet 1.4.1


        A "new world order" does not imply that that order will be unipolar. mikesh

        Mikesh, nowhere did I imply that the Russian Federation "new world order" would be unipolar.
        The supporters of Russian and Chinese expansion and aggression allegedly want a 'multipolar world order' by the so called BRIC countries.

        Brazil, Russia, Iran, China

        The last powers to attempt to impose a new multipolar world order;

        Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain.

        • mikesh 1.4.1.1

          The US dollar is at present the world's reserve currency. The BRIC countries, understandably, would like to change that. It seems that some sort of "pandora's box" was opened when Nixon severed the US dollar from its connection with gold.

          • Jenny are we there yet 1.4.1.1.1


            “The US dollar is at present the world’s reserve currency.” mikesh

            So what?

            “The BRIC countries, understandably, would like to change that.” mickesh

            Sure, I can see why they might want that.

            The British Pound was once the world's default currency. Which of course must also have been annoying to Germany, Italy, and Japan.

            But the answer to British imperialism was not German imperialism, (or Japanese or Italian imperialism).

            British imperialism was not ended by German imperialism.

            What ended the British Empire were movements for national independence from British political and economic hegemony.

            US imperialism will not be ended by rival imperialists. US imperialism will be ended by movements for national independence from US political and economic hegemony.

            And Russian imperialism too, will also be ended by movements for national independence.

            We are witnessing that process unfolding in real time.

            The defeat of Russian imperialism at the hands of the Ukraine nationalist independence movement, will be a message to all imperialists and all anti-imperialists: 'Imperialism, the cause of misery and injustice all over the world, is not invulnerable.'

            The age of imperialism is passing.

            ……the British pound was once the world's de facto reserve currency, while today the U.S. dollar and Euro are regarded as reserve currencies…

            https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/13/reserve-currencies.asp#:~:text=For%20instance%20the%20British%20pound%20was%20once%20the,low%20interest%20rates%20that%20can%20spur%20asset%20bubbles%29.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    "…We left Abd el Main there and rode on past the other bodies, now seen clearly in the sunlight to be men, women, and four babies, toward the village whose loneliness we knew meant that it was full of death and horror. On the outskirts were the low mud walls of some sheep-folds, and on one lay something red and white. I looked nearer, and saw the body of a woman folded across it, face downward, nailed there by a saw-bayonet whose half stuck hideously into the air from between her naked legs. She had been pregnant, and about her were others, perhaps twenty in all, variously killed, but laid out to accord with an obscene taste. The Zaggi burst out into wild peals of laughter, in which some of those who were not sick joined hysterically. It was a sight near madness, the more desolate for the warm sunshine and the clean air of this upland afternoon. I said: "The best of you brings me the most Turkish dead"; and we turned and rode as fast as we might in the direction of the fading enemy. On our way we shot down those of them fallen out by the roadside who came imploring our pity…"

    T. E Lawrence, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

    Wikipedia tells us that in retaliation for the massacre, Lawrence's troops attacked the withdrawing Turkish columns, and for the first time in the war ordered his men to take no prisoners.

    Need we question the wisdom of Lawrence of Arabia when dealing with savages such as the Wagner Group?

    • Adrian Thornton 2.1

      @ Sanctuary…So just to be clear, and we can all understand exactly what you are stating here on TS…it seems that you are saying that when any soldier from the Wagner Group are captured, they should be executed immediately by their captors?..is that what you just said?

      • Sanctuary 2.1.1

        The Ukraine has shown remarkable constraint in it's treatment of Russian POWs compared to barbarism of it's opponents, which is to be commended. They must consider the treatment of their ownmen held by the Russians – they are already subject to torture and indignities.

        To be honest, I wonder if I could be so magnaminous to captured members of an organisation whose ranks are filled by criminals and brutalised mercenaries who have been ravaging my homeland.

        The only WW2 old soldier I ever talked to on the subject made it reasonably clear to me that as far as he was concerned (he was an Anders Army/Polish paratrooper) anyone from the SS they took prisoner would count himself extrememly fortunate to survive the event.

        So I am not saying you shoot Fascist Russia's Waffen SS equivalent out of hand as policy, that would be awful. But personally I would not be too inclined to hang onto to any of them if it was any sort of inconvenience whatsoever. As mercenaries, IMHO they have forfeited that right.

        • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1

          That's funny because that is exactly what your comment implies….what nuance did I miss?

          "Wikipedia tells us that in retaliation for the massacre, Lawrence's troops attacked the withdrawing Turkish columns, and for the first time in the war ordered his men to take no prisoners.

          Need we question the wisdom of Lawrence of Arabia when dealing with savages such as the Wagner Group?"

          And Ukrainian forces have also committed plenty of war crime of that you can be sure..

          "Each soldier who got out of the van got a bullet to the knee from an assault rifle, whereas they were defenseless and tied up. I have videos showing this. Otherwise, I would not allow myself to make such allegations, showing Russian soldiers getting bullets in the knee. … And the ones who unfortunately decided to say, “I am an officer,” they got a bullet to the head."

          https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/05/25/tcbh-m25.html

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.1.1

            Ukrainian neo-Nazi militias armed by NATO against Russia

            So you've found unicorns – maybe the next story will include dragons.

            • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1.1.1

              If you really believe that in what is total war in the Ukraine, that both sides are not now and have not been involved in war crimes, then your understanding/knowledge of history and war is even worse than I already know it is….but then again, with your long history here on TS in totally believing without question pretty much any and all liberal propaganda… believing in, and then vigorously debating the existence of unicorns and dragons here on TS wouldn't be that much of leap from where you are sitting right now…you have done worse.

              • Stuart Munro

                Unlike Putin dupes, I try not to believe too much in the absence of evidence.

                No doubt there have been incidents on both sides – but the preponderance certainly lies with the invaders – Ukrainian forces having no civilians to abuse.

                But of course, as one of the most credulous lackeys mindlessly repeating Putin's propaganda the cognitive dissonance in admitting you are on the wrong side is doubtless more than your ego can stand.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  "Ukrainian forces having no civilians to abuse"…have you any understanding to what is going on in the Ukraine at all, that this conflict has been going on as a civil war since 2014?…obviously not.

                  Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces

                  Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

                  Maybe you should take the time to read this extract from Amnesty….you do understand that everyone from all sides are lying at full volume right?

                  "Each side has made allegations against the other of extrajudicial killings and other grave human rights abuses, which have been extensively broadcast in the Ukrainian and Russian media. Many of these reports, however, have been poorly substantiated or unsubstantiated.
                  Even in cases where the allegations have some basis in reality, their scale has often been considerably exaggerated"

                  https://www.amnesty.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Ukraine.pdf

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Actually, I have been following Putin's atrocities since he inveigled his way into power, you sweet summer child.

                    Civil war eh? Funny name for an insurgency.

                    Many of these reports, however, have been poorly substantiated or unsubstantiated.

                    Yes, funny that – Russia can make stuff up faster than the facts can be verified:

                    There was the dirty bomb.

                    And the Dniper dam story.

                    And a personal favourite, the lie (which you swallowed like a gullible guppy) about MH17.

                    There is no lie so outlandish that, if Putin utters it, you will not swallow it. That's how you earned the title of Putin dupe.

                  • Jenny are we there yet

                    "….you do understand that everyone from all sides are lying at full volume right?" Adrian Thornton

                    Maybe you are right about that, Adrian.

                    For instance, you could bring up some horrific alleged atrocity committed by Ukraine, and I could best you with some other alleged atrocity committed by Russia. And we could play that stupid game all day long. And at this far distance never being able to attain the truth.

                    Which is why I don't refer to, or argue about disputed atrocities.

                    Only to war crimes that can't be disputed, or denied as never having happened.

                    The numerous Russian missiles that have been captured in photos and video slamming into apartment buildings.
                    The deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure, admitted by Russia. Why waste my breath arguing with you about Bucha or any other atrocity, When the deliberate destruction of civilian homes and infrastructure is a war crime openly admitted to by Russia.

                    Ukraine didn't invade Russia, Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia is the aggressor in this war.

                    Adrian as you are a big time supporter of the Russian aggression against Ukraine.

                    Can you answer these two simple questions for me;

                    Do you support slamming missiles into apartment buildings?

                    Do you support the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure like power and water utilities with bombs and missiles?

                    My guess; You will ignore both these questions. And you will keep ignoring them.

                    Which is why I will make it my mission to keep asking you them.

                    I want to be able to determine the depth of your depravity. So expect me Adrian, to be asking you these two questions every time that you raise some specious argument in support of the bloody invasion and war of aggression against Ukraine by the Russian Federation.

                    Do you Adrian Thornton support slamming missiles into apartment buildings?

                    Do you support the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure?

          • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1.2

            Before you decide to die on a hill for Putin's Dirlewanger Brigade I suggest you research why a sledgehammer was the chosen method of execution.

            I hope you've got a strong stomach.

            • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1.2.1

              You aren’t going to get out of this one so easily my friend…

              What I am doing Sanctuary, is establishing for everyone here on TS to see and understand, is where your moral compass is pointing, and as I have suspected for a long time it points down…you have out in the open, advocated for the summery execution of prisoners of war.

              You know there was a good reason why I used to describe you Liberal neo-imperialist war hawks as ‘Camp Guards” (which I am no longer allowed to do)..that was because it describes you lot perfectly…march to the step of propaganda in perfect time, and as you have just confessed here today, use extreme violence when rallied by that same propaganda to do so..pretty unsettling stuff.

              • Tony Veitch

                Harrowing scenes on TV tonight as the people of Kherson reacted to the arrival of their 'oppressors' in the shape of Ukrainian soldiers.

                Hell, they even tried to poison them with bouquets of flowers!

                /s

        • mikesh 2.1.1.2

          Ukraine is being backed by the West, and is dependent on the West for the supply of weaponry, so I guess it has to be remain "squeaky clean". Or am I just being cynical ?

          • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.2.1

            "Or am I just being cynical ?"….no you are being naive….since when has 'The West' cared about war crimes committed under it's name?

            U.S. Pulls Out of War Crimes Court, Fearing Easy Political Prosecutions
            https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1020564287351612400

            • Sanctuary 2.1.1.2.1.1

              "…since when has 'The West' cared about war crimes committed under it's name…"

              Absolutely ridiculous whataboutism.

              Have you seen what remain of Mariupol or Severdonesk? How did Grozny look after the Russian way of war had finished with it? How do you think the civilian population of Al-Fallujah would have fared if it had been the Russians and not the Americans clearing the city? For all their sins, western armies gave up leveling heavily populated civilian areas with massive amounts of indiscriminate heavy artillery fire seventy years ago, and the mis-treatment of prisoners by western special forces has led to numerous scandals.

              Do you really think that if a bunch of our SAS guys uploaded to Youtube a celebratory video of them proudly smashing a Syrian captives hands and feet with a sledgehammer before cutting said limbs off with a saw and finally executing their victim by smashing his brains out with the sledgehammer, cutting off what is left of the head and offering one final indignity of of buring the corpse we'd all just go around saying "Ah, such is the SAS way of execution!" and happily watch them all getting promoted?

              The Wagner group is full of monsters who deserve whatever they get.

              • Adrian Thornton

                The thing is Sanctuary, you have proven today, that when push comes to shove you would most probably be just like them, that's the irony, and that is probably what triggers you so much.…do you really think that once you had given the green light to dehumanize a body of humans so that they can be executed without remorse, this despicable crime that you are so keen on, that they would all just get a clean bullet through the back of the head? of course not…you are a fucking maniac.

            • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.2.1.2

              Since My Lai at least.

              Were you to try to point to a comparable incident where Russia admitted culpability however, you would come up short.

              They are still in their infallible phase.

              • Sanctuary

                My Lai is a neat illustration of the difference actually. First, the massacre was stopped by actions of a passing helicopter pilot, who at one stage threatened his own side with his machine gun. Second, it caused all operations in the area tobe cancelled as the US forces were effectivly deemed to ill disciplined to continue, third all the ringleaders were tried (albeit acquitted), fourth their was a humoungous and debilitating scandal over the massacre and fifthly, Hugh Thompson Jr and his helicopter crew were ultimately decorated for their actions.

                Not one of those five things would occur in Putin's army, let alone the Wagner group.

            • mikesh 2.1.1.2.1.3

              It has been said that America lost in Vietnam because that war was the first war to be televised, and thus the American public were able to see the atrocities that were being committed in their name.

              • Stuart Munro

                That was a comforting fiction, like the contemporary Russian one that they are being defeated by Nato mercenaries rather than the despised khokhols. The Vietnamese fought a superpower to a standstill.

        • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.3

          @Sanctuary…
          And of course you used T.E Lawrence as example of your justified righteous retribution, a perfect choice coming from you…a great white man solving coloured people’s problems for them…I really don’t think you are even aware of the racism that so deeply embedded within the very fabric of the world outlook and ideology you promote so passionately….maybe one day you will have an epiphany around this, but I doubt it.

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.3.1

            I really don’t think you are even aware of the racism that so deeply embedded within the very fabric of the world

            White Russian racism you mean? It's a feature of the regime you shill for.

            Racist attacks and killings of foreigners and ethnic minorities are reported with shocking regularity in Russia and, disturbingly, their frequency seems to be increasing. Amnesty.

            • In Vino 2.1.1.3.1.1

              I have stayed out of this debate for a long time, thinking that history is going to make one of two utterly convinced sides look very silly.

              But Stuart – I felt wary when you first quoted T E Lawrence. In literature he is a recognised giant. Unfortunately, in racism, some have found a patronising element in his works..

              Are you recognising that Lawrence was racist in his attitude to inferior Arabs? It sounds to me as if you are equating what you call White Russian racism with Lawrence's racism.

              In the rush of things, did you intend it that way?

              • Stuart Munro

                I'm a fan of Lawrence, having read it with an Algerian student back in the day – though it was Sanctuary that raised him on this occasion.

                Lawrence was a thorough Arabophile, which was how it was that he was a fluent Arabic speaker (likely the only truly fluent British officer of the period). He sympathized with the Arab cause, and bitterly resented the Sykes-Picot treaty which subjugated them once more to the commercial interests of Britain and France. It reneged upon the UK's promises to Arabs, which Lawrence had vouched for, dishonouring him. This led him to retire from public life – he felt disgraced.

                Lawrence was a 'white saviour', which people of colour are not presently fond of. But it requires a considerable stretch to call him a racist – he was infinitely more pro-Arab than was usual in his day. He had completed his degree on the Crusader castles of the region, and had traveled to them, making him knowledgeable of the terrain and its strategic consequences. As the champion of the Arabic cause within the army, and the conduit for arms and materiale to Arabic forces, who were revolting against a Turkish rule that had conducted a number of genocides, Lawrence to a large extent made the revolt happen.

                A degree of patronizing was probably inevitable. Lawrence did his degree at Oxford, but many of the men he led were illiterate. When they made unenlightened errors, like the fellow that quarreled with and murdered a fellow Arab soldier, Lawrence was obliged to deal with it. He summarily executed the murderer, and his troops were satisfied enough that further animosity did not develop. A less honest narrator might not have recorded the incident.

                Russian racism is far cruder stuff.

  3. Ad 3

    Anyone wants to bathe in a warm soapy shower of cleansing schadenfreude, check out MSNBC smiling all the way through the Democrats taking the Senate and Kelly Lake getting done like a political dinner.

    Here we are on Fox a few days ago.

    (384) ‘SNL’ mocks Biden, Democrats before midterms: ‘Big Yikes’ – YouTube

    You can check out MSNBC any time for the fun they are having now.

    Bet McCarthy gets rolled for a start.

  4. arkie 4

    Power companies have been paying out billions more in dividends than they've been making in profits, driving up electricity prices, union researchers have found.

    The report – co-authored by First Union, the Council of Trade Unions, and climate group 350 – calls for the payouts to instead be channelled into building renewable generating capacity.

    The paper also recommends a windfall tax.

    From 2014 to 2021, Contact, Genesis, Mercury and Meridian paid shareholders $8.7 billion in dividends, the report said. That's despite recording a total profit of just $5.35b over that period.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/478672/household-power-bills-driven-up-by-retailers-paying-excessive-dividends-union

    This is where price inflation comes from, capital accumulation of the 'investor' class.

    Taxation could help to redistribute this accumulation: https://www.greens.org.nz/excess_profits_tax

    • alwyn 4.1

      It's a bit late.

      Grant Robertson, who will have received more than half the amount, has been like Billy Bunter with his pocket money purchases.

      He has already eaten the lot.

    • roy cartland 4.2

      I was going to post this as well. Can some smart person, in good faith of course, explain why we need to do this again? Line the pockets of shareholders? How is that better than not doing it?

    • mikesh 4.3

      This is where price inflation comes from, capital accumulation of the 'investor' class.

      Oh my gosh! And I thought inflation was all Adrian Orr's fault. Irony is a wonderful device.

  5. Ad 5

    Would it not be useful for us plebs to see Musk's Twitter empire burnt to the ground in $US44b of warm ash?

    Every oligarch should be humbled.

    • roy cartland 5.1

      Sure, but wasn't it you worrying about the job losses this would cause?

      • mikesh 5.1.1

        I seem to remember, from years ago, a cartoon in the magazine, MAD, pointing out all the job losses that would be caused by the war against cigarette smoking.

      • Ad 5.1.2

        Humble the owners not the workers.

        We're humble enough already.

    • Nic the NZer 5.2

      I'm pretty sure literally burning $44 billion in cash would be a slower process than how Musk is proceeding.

      • alwyn 5.2.1

        Let's see.

        The biggest denomination I can think of would be the Singapore $10,000 note. That is about $8,000 US dollars. $44 billion US would therefore be about 5.5 million notes

        That is a pile of notes about 6 kilometres high and would weigh about 5,500 kg (if I have done the maths properly).

        I think you are right. It would take a very long time to get it all burnt with even the largest circulating note wouldn't it? Perhaps we could approach the BOE and see if they would supply us with some Titans. They are a (non-circulating) note worth 100 million pounds and are the backing for the Scottish and Norther Irish banknotes. We would only need a few hundred of them.

    • Stuart Munro 5.3

      There are some splendid tweets coming out from blue ticked authors:

      Chiquita: We've just overthrown the government of Brazil.

      Chiquita: We apologize to those who have been served a misleading message from a fake Chiquita account. We haven't overthrown a government since 1954.

  6. mosa 6

    " Behind the headline “$200m boost for new homes” is a sordid tale of a government demolishing state houses, selling most of the land to private property developers and in this case building fewer state houses than were previously there "

    If a National government was doing this Megan Woods would be raging and demanding the resignation of the minister. If only.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/11/14/hundreds-of-millions-in-state-house-land-sold-by-labour-in-the-middle-of-a-housing-catastrophe-for-pe

  7. Maurice 7

    Who can really Grok the whims of multi-billionaires?

    Perhaps burning Twitter to the ground is just too much "fun" to resist???

  8. X Socialist 8

    Three Waters has become Five Waters? What's going on? Democracy? What democracy! The most important general election in New Zealand's history happens next year, folks.

    Quote:

    ''The really radical move in the report — also overlooked entirely by Jack Tame on TVNZ’s Q&A and by Andrew Dickens interviewing Mahuta for Newstalk ZB — was the proposed extension to the scope of Te Mana o Te Wai statements.

    Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region. That right is denied to non-Maori, who make up the remaining 84 per cent of the population.

    The select committee has proposed that such statements, issued exclusively by iwi, should apply not only to freshwater but coastal and geothermal water as well.''

    https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/hey-presto-three-waters-becomes-five-waters

    • observer 8.1

      You are apparently a stranger to logic, but you could at least read what you post:

      Democracy? What democracy! The most important general election in New Zealand's history happens next year

      It's now obvious that you are some kind of Alan Partridge comedy turn, but the script needs work.

      • X Socialist 8.1.1

        Yes, I see my mistake. Irony and a host of other givens aren't in your tool box. Please forgive me. Btw… anything to add to the subject matter? Take your time.frown

    • Incognito 8.2

      Only iwi have the right to issue these edicts, which are binding on the Water Services Entity in their region. That right is denied to non-Maori, who make up the remaining 84 per cent of the population. [my italics]

      The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed. Moreover, your comment is nothing but fear mongering without making a decent argument at all. Lift your game here or go back to the Platform where you might feel more at home anyway.

      • alwyn 8.2.1

        "The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed". Pray enlighten us. What is flawed? Is the statement false? Will iwi not be able to issue edicts? Will they not be binding?

        • Incognito 8.2.1.1

          Switch on the light on the top floor. I’ve already given you one leg-up by using italics. Work it out.

      • X Socialist 8.2.2

        ''The premise of the Platform plonker (?) ''

        Contributing writer like MS is on this blog. The difference is I don't call Mickey a plonker just because I disagree with everything he writes. Ok, 95% of what he writes.

        The premise of the Platform plonker (?) and you, it seems, is flawed. Moreover, your comment is nothing but fear mongering without making a decent argument at all.

        The 'premise' around this issue seems to be fluid. Please explain where our premise may be wrong. I would much rather be wrong and have Five Waters drop back to Three Waters. There is no fear mongering. The contributing writer has written a reasonable article that you are free to correct. I have provided a link.

        Three Waters has morphed following recommendations of a proposed extension to the scope of Te Mana o Te Wai statements.

        • Incognito 8.2.2.1

          The problem with people like you who ‘read’ the Platform and listen to talk-back shock-jocks is that they turn off their brain. Here’s a hint: region vs. general population. Did you see a light flash?

          • X Socialist 8.2.2.1.1

            No.

            • Incognito 8.2.2.1.1.1

              Do you understand what Three Waters reforms propose with regards to loco-regional management of water resources? It seems that you and – from what I could gather from your quoted text – that Platform plonker have the wrong idea(s) (aka premise). For example, do you think that central government/Government is going to take over all management and this is what this Government is proposing? Or do you think that Maori will be in charge?

              • X Socialist

                ''Do you understand what Three Waters reforms propose with regards to loco-regional management of water resources?''

                Well, for a while I thought I had a general understanding of what Three Waters reforms entailed. However, now I'm not so sure, for the simple reason when it comes to Maori, the sky seems to be the limit regardless of what community, regional and Tauiwi groups have been assured under this proposed legislation.

                Quote:

                ''What are the new opportunities for iwi/Māori?

                There are several new areas of opportunity for iwi/Māori:

                • Oversight – Mana whenua will participate in the joint oversight of the new entities. Representative interests will need to be determined by Māori for Māori through a Kaupapa Māori process. In some entity areas these processes have begun. More detail on this will be available over the coming months.
                • New entity operation – The proposed water services entities will be required to have significant cultural and local expertise. This will provide local opportunities for Māori to participate in the new delivery arrangements.
                • Te Mana o Te Wai – the reform will provide for local expression of Te Mana o Te Wai that will enable development of Mauri frameworks, application of mātauranga Māori measurement or any other expression that iwi decide is relevant to them.
                • Local opportunities – Economic analysis projects that the reforms will create 6,000 to 9,000 jobs over the next 30 years and that reforms will grow GDP by $14 billion to $23 billion over the next 30 years. Iwi/Māori will have the ability to participate in delivery of this investment in local infrastructure.'

                https://www.dia.govt.nz/three-waters-reform-programme-frequently-asked-questions

                Too many vague concepts that cannot be quantified into legal frame works in my opinion. Nothing is concrete, and as the latest report has shown, can be modified at a whim under the guise of 'culture.'

                It has been reported that Labour was helped to power by some farmers/ right leaning voters wanting the Greens locked out of power. To me, the differences between grassroot Labour and National voters isn't great. Labour is dreaming if they don't believe their grassroot voters have major reservations about Three Waters. Just like some voters swallowed a dead rat to keep the Greens out of power, I'm betting some on the Left will do likewise regarding Three Waters.

                • Incognito

                  It is as vague or clear as Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which is at the basis of much that is proposed in the Three Waters reforms. When it gets too hard, don’t start shouting Democracy? What democracy! and other nonsense about the demographics of the general population (a major red herring and red flag).

                  Similarly, labelling (or fobbing off, by some) Te Tiriti o Waitangi as ‘culture’ seems deliberately demeaning and is not helpful either.

                  Having reservations about new frameworks for fresh water management and new forms of (local) democracy is one thing but wilful ignorance is another. The latter leads to closed minds, bias, polarisation, and division.

                  Using Three Waters reforms as a political pawn is a sure way of stuffing up everything for little short-term political gain – the real issues will remain and likely get worse, like so many others such as actions against climate change and/or risk mitigation and resilience measures.

                  Lastly, they are proposals under active consideration, i.e., things are being shaped still, so perhaps it is a little premature to assume worst-case scenarios and other dystopian fantasies aka fear-mongering unless that’s (part of) one’s agenda …

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.3

      Adams' opinion is so 'Kiwi not Iwi'. Iwi eh, always pinching our stuff – fearful businesssmiley

  9. alwyn 9

    Perhaps this picture of President Biden and PM Ardern would make a caption competition.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/jacinda-ardern-meets-joe-biden-east-asia-summit

    My suggestion would be "Young lady. Can you tell me which of these forks I use for the salad course? I never can remember."

  10. Ad 10

    With the Chair of Auckland Unlimited dying overnight, Mayor Brown just got delivered a governance gift to not reappoint, then disestablish, and then gut.

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