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Daily review 14/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, November 14th, 2022 - 205 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

205 comments on “Daily review 14/11/2022 ”

  1. pat 1

    A challenge for any taker(s)

    How is 3Waters going to improve water provision/discharge?

    • gsays 1.1

      Locally speaking, having Maori at the table with the other decision makers, ways of thinking such as wairua and taonga will be represented.

    • swordfish 1.2

      .

      Incisive question … you're flushing out the self-indulgent Romanticism of the well-to-do, intellectually-superficial, prestige-enhancing Pakeha Woke … with a simple question on fundamental practicalities.

      You’re one of a distinct minority here firmly grounded in reality & clear-cut principles of right & wrong … as opposed to ostentatious displays of virtue-signaling & bombastic moral posturing.

      • Shanreagh 1.2.1

        When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary.

        PS Was the use of the word ‘flushing’ inadvertent humour?

      • DB Brown 1.2.2

        Your entire post was a massive pose. You sir, are a massive poser.

        Three waters will have monitoring facilities so we stop poisoning locals. It will have financing so we can replace pipes also poisoning locals. It will have coordination so boundary lines don't become places of inaction by two governing entities.

        It will have oversight so prissy little capitalist whiners who think the commons are theirs can't get their grubby shit shaped thieving paws on it. That's really upset the apple cart. The thieves are claiming they're being stolen from – right? A pack of opportunistic thieving Trumpesque white whingers terrified of everything non-white.

        The gist of anti-3 waters is racist, pathetic, ill informed, nasty and ultimately stupid. They parrot each other over talk back and rarely have an original thought. Their plan – be against it!

        Fucking old people – holding everything back terrified of their own irrelevancy.

        • RedLogix 1.2.2.1

          One thing about getting old though – if you have a shred of self-awareness you look back with chagrin at all the stupid things you used to believe.

          • Shanreagh 1.2.2.1.1

            Yes my biggest 'doh, what was I thinking moment' is to remember while at Auckland Uni marching with people up Queen Street in opposition to Mayor Robbie's light rail.

            I don't regret my pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro women anti Vietnam marches or cheering on Maori groups who have marched in support of their rights to fairdealing in land issues etc.

            Suffice to say over the years I have got more radical than less. Growing old does enable some of us to reflect and to want a better world in place of a non working BAU.

          • Anne 1.2.2.1.2

            Plain naivety is my biggest regret RL. It enabled a handful of dishonest and deceitful individuals to use me to the hilt and then leave me to carry the can for their own conduct. I learnt a huge amount about human behaviour but oh dear… at what a cost. You can't undo the past. sad

        • Shanreagh 1.2.2.2

          I am an oldie. Bring on Three Waters is all I can say.

          The resistance in my set of friends is coming from a younger set 40-60.

          It comes complete with a built in set of anti PM, anti women and anti Murray views. I am sure they are waiting on the steak knives before advertising these as a useful addition.

          • Tony Veitch 1.2.2.2.1

            I have got more radical than less.

            Someone, possibly Churchill, said, if you're not a radical at 20 you haven't got a heart; if you're not a conservative at 40 you haven't got a head.

            Wrong! At least in my case. I've got more radical the older I've got!

            Bring on 3 waters, for all the reasons D.B. mentioned above.

      • Robert Guyton 1.2.3

        Incisive question?

        How is BAU going to improve water provision/discharge?

    • RedLogix 1.3

      I worked in the water supply industry for 8 years. From the outset I have been firmly in favour of the operational amalgamation but against the political privatisation.

      Operationally water supply is both capital intensive and cash flow poor; which means the existing multiple agencies struggle to attract necessary funds to upgrade and maintain, but also to retain the necessary engineering and tech skilled people in the industry. This results in stupid duplication of effort, systems and an asset base that is a patchwork of different technologies all at different stages of their lifecycles – which in turn gobbles up scarce cash. Amalgamation leverages scale to sustain more consistent funding, better planning and more effective use of people. In this respect 3W would be a good thing.

      At the same time the ethno-nationalist interpretation of the ToW that elevates the iwi elites to a superior class of citizenship has demanded that all water in New Zealand belongs to them. Unfortunately this govt has bundled the two in a manner that is both deceitful and manipulative.

      Deceitful because they are underplaying the manner in which 3W effectively passes control of the asset that belongs to everyone, into the hands on an unelected, race-based elite. There is no electoral mandate for this.

      Manipulative because while it tells us that only Maori have the moral capacity to manage water supply, everyone else being racist if they object to this.

      • Shanreagh 1.3.1

        Ummm no political privatisation?

        At least none that I can see.

        Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure.

        If there is no right to privatise why do you infer that the proposal includes this. Scaremongering really.

        As several posters have said over the past month Maori with their view of water as a taonga are probably the least likely to privatise. Or are you referring to the other holding agency?

        Reading your post again it has much exaggeration. BAU is not working. Let us face that fair and square.
        To keep doing this the way we always will ensure that we have a BAU non workable situation for the years ahead.

        How many times does this have to be illustrated before people believe we need to do something. A progressive democracy should be just that not mired in anti type BAU.

        The system needs a massive kick start, a new view and what ahead cannot be worse than what we have had, with unfishable and un swimmable rivers, lakes and streams, sewage discharges, high levels of farm chemicals, over use in terms of extractive water rights.

        I am picking it will be better with the new set-up, Probably way better than the most conservative pro pundits are picking.

        • RedLogix 1.3.1.1

          As several posters have said over the past month Maori with their view of water as a taonga are probably the least likely to privatise.

          This sentence embeds an assumption of moral superiority. The assumption that no-one else values water and wilderness. The assumption that somehow Maori are so unique that in New Zealand water can only be effectively managed by one minority ethnicity. Makes you wonder how the rest of the world gets on without such special people in charge.

          The assumption also that 3W will give control of these vital assets to an elite group of unelected, unaccountable individuals. Which for all intents and purposes looks like a privatisation to most people.

          Just replace the word Maori with say – Indian – in this debate and the absurdity of it all would be immediately apparent.

          • Shanreagh 1.3.1.1.1

            I do not want to unpick all your assumptions. It is simply red-neck and displaying an ignorance of NZ history to say you can replace Indian, Chinese French or whatever with Maori and this demonstrates racial overtones. Simply rubbish and utterly forgetting that NZ Crown (through HMQ) signed a Treaty with Maori back in 1840.

            If you can demonstrate that this Treaty was also signed with Indian people or Chinese or French or, or or, then you might have a point. But it was not. Indian, French, etc come in the Tauiwi or Ngati Wikitoria ie with the Crown partner.

            You are writing these on a basis that Maori have no right to have a Treaty that works for them

            Let me unpick the steps

            1 co governance is first and foremost a recognition and way forward to enable to recognise the rights of the other party to the Treaty of Waitangi. The Crown (HMK) is the other partner.

            2 So having established the genesis is with an 1840 treaty we now look at the aspiration, beliefs of the other partner. In this we are fortunate in that the other party also shares the aims and concerns that lead to the concern about water in the first place. In the Maori belief system water is a taonga.

            The Crown could have found that the other party was an extractive, water polluting, river damming people with that as a culture.

            So first and foremost it is recognition of Treaty rights that this is a way forward to fix an untenable BAU.

            Many who understand that two step idea

            1 inherent rights

            plus

            2 untenable current situation needing fixing

            have few concerns. After all it cannot be worse than what is happening now and we are lucky that our treaty partner's views about water, that they have held steadfastly are now acceptable to a wider group. This wider group can see that a more measured and less extractive approach may make it better for all.

            For extra reading you should read about the the NZ Maori Council cases that stopped the sale of NZ land back in neo lib days,. They mounted a treaty focused argument that was upheld by the Courts. Thankfully we are not the slow learners we were in those days.

            • Stuart Munro 1.3.1.1.1.1

              Your confidence in the largely untested Maori entity as stewards is all very well, but the record of stewardship in industries like fishing is not encouraging – Maori interests proving just as susceptible to the moral hazards of practices like slave fishing as the other players.

              I have no confidence in the proposed structure of the 3 waters reform, which I would describe as lacking the appropriate constitutional safeguards. Labour want to gamble on an affirmative action with a resource that concerns everyone. Antidemocratic as well as profoundly unwise.

              • Anker

                100% Stuart Munro

              • Binders full of Women

                It's now 5Waters– the report back from select committee says Te Mana o te Wai satements can now also include seawater and geothermal water.

              • swordfish

                .
                Yep … that's bang-on …

                … although, if I remember my Critical Race Theory accurately, critiquing anything involving Corporate Iwi makes you a Cis-heteronormative transphoblic White Supremacist Neo-Nazi bigot suffering from White Fragility & White Man’s tears.

                Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law. I think we can rely on that Great Totara, Shanreagh, to know what’s best for us all.

                • Anker

                  You are bang on the money Swordfish

                • Shanreagh

                  I think you are having us on SW with the word salad much as I used to back in the 1970s/80s when we used to have arguments in our Women's Studies classes and introduce ourselves with as many phrases as we could.

                  I keep part of mine to sing out to others of the same ilk……

                  'Unreconstructed 1970s feminist …….'

                • Molly

                  "Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law."

                  Except when they disagree, then apparently they are the sad self-hating products of colonialism. Independent thinking be damned.

              • Robert Guyton

                "the largely untested Maori entity as stewards"

                Did they bugger it up, pre-colonisation?

                I hadn't heard. Please post details.

                Maori – stuffing up the water, before we got here!

                Appalling!

                • Stuart Munro

                  Well, it's a nice argument Robert, but the finger has been pointed at a few issues prior to Eurocolonization, including moa extinction, and Central Otago & MacKenzie deforestation. The main reason the Maori footprint was light was the same as it was for Pakeha for quite some time – smaller populations create less mischief.

                  Nor have contemporary Maori eschewed the problematic industries responsible for polluting already stressed waterways – which tends to suggest that their environmental piety is no purer than the European colonist's religious piety – poor or no protection.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Gosh, Stuart! First peoples, eating the easy stuff, not seeing the downsides – has that ever happened before???

                    Short-sighted aboriginals, eh! They never learn!

                    • Stuart Munro

                      There are always some shortsighted ones, Robert. In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. In the balkanized nuclear groups of contemporary society and business however, the delay between the stimuli and the response has become too attenuated.

                      So we get nitrification, and eutrophication and anoxic rivers and ponds, and Government responds late, if at all. The body of society is damaged, like a sufferer of Hansen's disease, by the lack of real time responses. And on it stumbles, like the angel of the future, backwards into the great unknown.

                      ‘Angelus Novus’ shows an angel looking as though he is about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing in from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such a violence that the angel can no longer close them. The storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. Walter Benjamin

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. "

                      Let's study then, and learn from, these guys.

                      Now, where are our nearest examples…

          • X Socialist 1.3.1.1.2

            It's been reported and reinforced so many times that Maori have a special relationship with nature and water. By inference, It's something that Europeans apparently don't have if you believe the talking heads in the media and Maori spin doctors.

            Yet Europeans have manipulated water to serve us. They have made water drinkable and done other wonders. Things that are now taken for granted. Of course these manipulations of nature have sometimes created disasters and unforeseen problems. And it's these problems everyone seems to concentrate on ( and rightly so), and not the progress our nation has made.

            • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.1.2.1

              "Yet Europeans have manipulated water to serve us. They have made water drinkable and done other wonders."

              Water must serve us!!!

              We must manipulate it!!!

              Europeans made water drinkable!!!

              Plus other wonders!!!

              Love your work!

              • X Socialist

                Water must serve us!!!

                We must manipulate it!!!

                No, of course we don't need to manipulate water. silly!

                We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water. And we can tell others about our special relationship with water.

                Lucky you have a long drop on your property, eh, son. That's means you are future proofed.laugh

                • Robert Guyton

                  "We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water"

                  Let's keep Christianity out of it, shall we; next you'll be claiming Europeans believe it can be walked-on, turned to wine, the sort of thing!!

                  • Shanreagh

                    I agree with your stance.

                    X Socialist was quite wrong to bring Christianity into it. I am hoping he is not going to bring other beliefs up & say naughty things about Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.

                    Both of these make very little use of water apart from water being used by domestic animals who are not in a factory farm situation.wink

                    Least-ways I have not heard of factory farming Easter bunnies and with the reindeer all having names it more or less rules them out of being factory farmed.

                    But I digress…….. much like X Socialist did.

                  • X Socialist

                    ''Let's keep Christianity out of it, shall we.''

                    Let's not. You need to read up on our history. Christianity was, and became, a very important part of European and Maori life. Water is part of Christian ritual. You also need to understand imbuing water with wairua was standard practice in traditional Maori society. Sometimes even Oriori was spoken to the water. The water quantity was not important – either a drop or a whole river.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I need to read up on our history?

                      Thank you for identifying my need, X. You are nothing if not considerate.

                      I found this from you, puzzling:

                      "You also need to understand imbuing water with wairua was standard practice in traditional Maori society."

                      You mean, they drank water?

                      I had no idea…

                    • Shanreagh

                      We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water. And we can tell others about our special relationship with water.

                      Of course I know about the relationship and the history, but pardon me as I obviously read sarcasm into the statement you wrote above, ie you were criticising a relationship not commending it.

                    • X Socialist

                      Correct.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      X is criticising the relationship between Maori and te wai?

                      Why?

                      Lack of understanding?

                      Racism?

                      Ignorance?

                      Pig-headedness?

                  • Anker

                    I think the problem is Robert that if Maori claim they have a special relationship with water, then surely that opens it up to others to make the same claim?

                    I don't know what this means "a special relationship with water". Water is essential to every human being on the plannet. The "special relatiionship" claim is just articulating some belief system that some Maori and some Pakeha have chosen to believe. It is likely a spiritual belief, but as such cannot be proved or tested.

                    I just want the best, most knowledgable people to manage our water. And I want the ability to vote them out if they don't serve the people of NZ well.

                    https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/hey-presto-three-waters-becomes-five-waters

                    A lot of people likely won't read this link because it is from the Platform. That's o.k. but you are missing out a really good critique of whats going on.

                    • Incognito

                      A lot of people likely won’t read this link because it is from the Platform. That’s o.k. but you are missing out a really good critique of whats going on.

                      Nope, they are avoiding reading rubbish from a Platform plonker. It is ironic that quite a few anti-Murrays here gravitate to that pool of populist propaganda fountain of wisdom.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Agree with you, Incognito – The Platform is for plonkers. Home-base for the easily mis-led. Plunket, for babies 🙂

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Do "Maori" claim to have a special relationship with water, Anker? Or do their words indicate that they have a more vital and lively understanding of water than most pakeha do?

                      I reckon there's some truth in the proposal that Tangata Whenua still connect with water in a way that pakeha have forgotten.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Well I have read it but nothing new in it. in fact for me it adds nothing. It is not a good critique of the proposal, nor the select cttee findings and neither does it examine good ideas/bad ideas, how things might or might not work…etc etc. So not even good commentary.

                      You'd be better to read some of the commentators on here plus read the select report itself.

                    • X Socialist

                      The day Maori can do what Viktor Schauberger did with water, may be the day I take you seriously.

                      You mean, they drank water?

                      I had no idea…

                      No, I didn't mean that. Doesn't your RC give you TOW courses on Maori culture?no

                    • Anker

                      I have no idea what you mean by a more vital and lively understanding of water.

                      Vital and lively won't fix the pipes and organise the funding to do so.

                      What we need with water is science and a technological understanding of pipes

                      Husband is Maori. He has no more vital or lively understanding of water than I do.

                      But we both appreciate running water and toilets that flush.

                    • Anker

                      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/wellington-shouldnt-assume-bigger-is-better-for-local-government

                      Ok well here is another take on Three waters, co written by Peter Davis, who I understand is Helen Clarks husband.

                    • weka

                      I'll just note that of the five political parties in the NZ parliament, Te Pāti Māori has the most progressive policy on water by far. Better than the Greens. They say we should be able to drink water from our rivers, streams and lakes. I believe that they are ahead of the other parties because of cultural reasons ie Māori have a relationship with water and nature that transcends human use and includes respect for life for its own sake. There are lots of non-Māori that have this too, but it's not embedded in Pākehā values.

                      If we treat water as an inert substance separate from its environment and the rest of liver, there for human use, then we end up in the situation we are in now, with rivers so polluted that kids can't swim in them let alone drink from them. And we end up with infrastructure that is failing, because when we treat nature like shit we inevitably end up treating humans like shit too, who are after all, part of nature too.

                      And guess what? Science supports TPM’s position. For ecosystems to function, we need water quality in rivers to be higher than drinkable for humans. If we want the live that lives in rivers to thrive, it needs to be a higher standard. There’s no opposition between science and mātauranga Māori, except in how some humans conceptualise them.

                      So yeah, there are differences in the relationship with water.

                      (edited to had the science paragraph)

                    • weka

                      here's what you get from Pākehā thinking (and this is one of my concerns about 3 Waters). If the drinking water at the tap in cities and towns is causing ill health in humans, then you add chemicals to the water to treat that. You don't look at the source water and return it to its natural state. Once you have water treated at the tap end, you don't need to bother with things like the cows shitting in rivers.

                      Likewise, when thousands of people got sick from the animal pollution into the Hastings water supply, the response wasn't to change land management, it was to make sure that every rural and small town water supply was chlorinated.

                      I'm not saying don't chlorinate. I'm pointing to the mindset that allows us to turn water from something vital into a thing.

                      I've swum in many Otago and Southland rivers and lakes, and I can feel the vitality. It comes from connection with place. It won't prevent giardia or e coli, but loss of vitality will collapse whole ecosystems and the climate.

                    • joe90

                      I reckon there's some truth in the proposal that Tangata Whenua still connect with water in a way that pakeha have forgotten.

                      Eldon Best wrote about the status of water in pre-European tikanga.

                      https://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_14_1905/Volume_14%2C_No.1%2C_March_1905/Maori_medical_lore%2C_by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_1-23/p1

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Lordy!

                      "I have no idea what you mean by a more vital and lively understanding of water."

                      Understood. You don't understand.

                      "Vital and lively won't fix the pipes and organise the funding to do so."

                      Pipes are the answer, Anker? Here we diverge in our understanding of water management.

                      What we need with water is science and a technological understanding of pipes

                      "Husband is Maori."

                      OMG – I've always assumed you were male! Sorry!

                      "He has no more vital or lively understanding of water than I do."

                      I'm sorry to hear that.

                      "But we both appreciate running water and toilets that flush."

                      Toilets that flush…to where?

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Victor? Designing flumes to carry logs, enabling the deforestation of entire mountains?

                      That Victor?

                    • RedLogix

                      If the drinking water at the tap in cities and towns is causing ill health in humans, then you add chemicals to the water to treat that.

                      All post-agricultural human settlement had to deal with the problem of contaminated surface water. A few hundreds of people in local area might manage with some observational ideas that imposed separation of potable and waste water. But grow to the size of a town or city and such simple schemes become totally impractical and demand science based solutions.

                      Indeed the advent of modern water supply treatment, both potable and waste, in the 1800s was the driver of one of the greatest extensions of human life expectancies ever. Are you suggesting we unwind this, and revert to the ravages of cholera once again? I would hope not, but your unqualified claim above implies it.

                    • weka []

                      If I was teaching critical thinking, I would use your comment as the classic example of the problem with extractive sound bite commenting out of context.

                      You took a single sentence out of a half dozen paragraphs where I was explaining a reasonably complex cultural situation, and then used that sentence to splain me about science despite my obvious inclusion of science.

                      You stated,

                      Are you suggesting we unwind this, and revert to the ravages of cholera once again? I would hope not, but your unqualified claim above implies it.

                      But you missed where I said this, a mere four sentences after the the bit you soundbited,

                      I’m not saying don’t chlorinate.

                      Doesn’t get much plainer than that.

                    • RedLogix

                      When you start a comment with a premise like:

                      here's what you get from Pākehā thinking (and this is one of my concerns about 3 Waters).

                      it creates a premise – that somehow water treatment is a bad thing. And despite acknowledging that it is necessary you then go on to femsplain to me about 'vitality'.

                      By sheer coincidence I've just finished watched this:

                      Decades ago I swam in these same pools, and I know the experience too. You do not have to have superior Maori genetics to understand the value of wilderness and truly fresh, mountain or bush fed rivers. That we have collectively allowed our lowland rivers to be compromised by uncontrolled dairy herd runoff and the like is a matter of widespread regret and concern.

                      But using this legitimate issue as a justification for a completely different and divisive ethno-political agenda is deceitful and manipulative.

            • Shanreagh 1.3.1.1.2.2

              It's been reported and reinforced so many times that Maori have a special relationship with nature and water.

              While this is true the foundation behind Three Waters is the Treaty of Waitangi and whether the Crown, as one of the parties to the Treaty, needs to/has to abide with a Treaty signed in good faith all those years ago.

        • Molly 1.3.1.2

          "Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure."

          This repeated use of "Murrays" in your comments is bizarre.

          On an individual level, it raises an ironic smile, because I have whanau connections with "the Murrays" who have a reputation for self-aggrandisement and questionable behaviour.

          But you carry on.

          • X Socialist 1.3.1.2.1

            Murray's from Matakana Island?

          • Shanreagh 1.3.1.2.2

            The repeated use is a nod to another poster who first used it here in a critique of the unlamented Wayne Brown et al suggested Three Waters 'reform'.

            As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari.

            My late mother (died 2010 aged 94) used to lament that Europeans in NZ were accepted as having good individuals and bad individuals but that neither good nor bad defined the race. For Maori on the other hand people did not accept that there were good individuals of Maori whakapapa and bad individuals of Maori whakapapa, only bad and that did define the race.

            Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race.

            • Molly 1.3.1.2.2.1

              "As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari."

              So, now that you've indulged your schoolyard repetition (such fun!), do you think you can rejoin the adults?

              "Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race."

              Yes. I didn't imply otherwise BTW.

              Now you are inching towards reality, keep going…

              If this is true, then what does "represent the race"?

              Awaiting this answer. (Such fun! wink)

              • Shanreagh

                Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad. All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad.

                Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself.

                • Molly

                  "Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad."

                  That's a Clayton's answer. Let's leave it for know, but perhaps I'll ask again and you'll have a more insightful response.

                  "All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad."

                  Do I really have to point out, this is your own unevidenced assumption? Many critiques have been given as to why people disagree with Three Waters and co-governance that have not suggested "the Maori race as being all bad ". I know you've seen them, because you reply to them.

                  Is your only takeaway from these exchanges that all who don't support this believe "the Maori race as being all bad".

                  (Be honest…. isn't that also your take-in to the conversation?)

                  "Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself."

                  OK… you mean unless it's you – playing schoolmistress. In which case it's all good.

      • Hunter Thompson II 1.3.2

        Looks like the Parliamentary charade is continuing. The Water Services Entities Bill has been reported back to the House with minimal changes, Labour no doubt hoping the legislation now has the cloak of respectability.

        But iwi interests will still have effective control of the resource, and if you control something you effectively own it, no matter what rights others have on paper.

        Notable too is the inclusion in clauses 4 & 5 of the Bill of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Nowhere are these principles defined, but that is no doubt deliberate. Just make up the rules as you go along.

        Strangest of all is the reference in clause 9A to a paragraph from the court case New Zealand Māori Council v Attorney-General. The Bill seeks to rely on an assurance allegedly given by Crown counsel in the course of litigation.

        It is nothing but legislative word fog.

        • Shanreagh 1.3.2.1

          Notable too is the inclusion in clauses 4 & 5 of the Bill of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Nowhere are these principles defined, but that is no doubt deliberate. Just make up the rules as you go along.

          Strangest of all is the reference in clause 9A to a paragraph from the court case New Zealand Māori Council v Attorney-General. The Bill seeks to rely on an assurance allegedly given by Crown counsel in the course of litigation.

          Are you the NZ equivalent of Rip van winkle and been asleep for two hundred years?…..All through my working life we have court cases/narrative on the clauses in the treaty, the differences in meaning between the English version and the Maori version. We have had occupations of land, we have had marches on Parliament. We have had Treaty Settlements where the Crown Treaty partner has been found to have breached the Treaty. But being asleep you may have missed this.

          We have had demos at Waitangi about honouring the Treaty…..

          In the 1980/90s NZ Maori Council, representing the other Treaty partner was able to stop the Govt ie the Crown or other Treaty partner in its tracks and force it back to negotiations during the neolib free for all bargain basement sale of crown-owned assets. I am not surprised that it is referred to.

          Legislation these days usually has a clause that the legislation binds the crown and refers to the Treaty.

        • Shanreagh 1.3.2.2

          The Water Services Entities Bill has been reported back to the House with minimal changes..

          Are you saying that the changes proposed from the Select Committee/Govt did not go through?

        • Shanreagh 1.3.2.3

          For Rip van Winkle aka Hunter Thompson 11 (hopefully your Nom de owes nothing to Hunter S Thompson.)

          New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney-General, also known as the "Lands" case or "SOE" case, was a seminal New Zealand legal decision marking the beginning of the common law development of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

          Court: Court of Appeal of New Zealand

          Citation(s): 1 NZLR 641, (1987) 6 NZAR 353

      • swordfish 1.3.3

        .

        Hit the nail squarely on the head … razor-sharp analysis, succinctly put … upsetting as that may be to the well-to-do Noble Savage Paternalists.

        Childlike cheerleading for Corporate Iwi interests = as a signal to other wannabe elites of personal moral virtue.

        • Shanreagh 1.3.3.1

          You haven't responded about me being able to borrow your Dictionary and whether

          PS Was the use of the word ‘flushing’ inadvertent humour?

          I think having the dictionary will help trying to decipher your posts.

          • Anker 1.3.3.1.1

            I don't think the dictionary will help you Shanreagh.

            Understanding the meaning of Swordfishes words overall would.

            From my point of view he is bang on as usual

            • Robert Guyton 1.3.3.1.1.1

              You are coming across as dweadfully besotted, Anker!

              • Shanreagh

                I wanted to borrow Swordfish's specthal Dictionary, the one I referred to above

                'Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations'

                You see it is not just any old dictionary.

                • Robert Guyton

                  If I had a copy, I'd look up the meaning of "swordfish".

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Already know the meaning of anchor.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Well we used the anchor to stop forward movement, or actually any movement on the yacht.

                      On another matter, I picked up our local newsletter and find that November it is World Pukarukaru or Jellyfish month. Climate change is meaning we see more Portuguese Man (men?) of War closer in and further south.

                    • Anker

                      Sticks and stones Incognito.

                    • Incognito []

                      Anchor, you missed the other discussion thread about the same link. Please keep up.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The jellyfish invasion has been happening for a while, Shangreah. The salmon farms have been swamped by jellies and don't advertise the events widely 🙂

              • Anker

                Robert Guyton. Its true I admire people with the ability to think critically and call out what is really going on.

                But I am also a nice person who likes to give credit where credit is due. Its not uncommon for me to acknowledge when I think people hit the nail on the head on this site (often this is Sabine and Molly. But sure Swordfish too and Stuart Munro)

                But again I find rather than sticking to the arguements, there is an attempt to deride me. That's o.k. In my mind it speaks volumes about people arguements.

                • Shanreagh

                  I admire your views and persistence on the Women's issues/trans issues.

                  I am surprised that you admire the current views of SF. Very different from those of old. Mainly I don't like the insults that surround the views…..people don't just have different views, the critique he/she mounts is surrounded by personal venom.

                  Weka has many good points one, is to look at Te Pati Maori for their views.

                  I was married to a Nga Puhi for some years. We were close but even so he did not share with me the points of his soul relating to water/land etc. It was a family thing, none of them did really.
                  Your husband may be the same

                  My cousins on the other hand are happy to share with anyone who has an interest. This comes from a long family involvement in Maori aspects due to location and upbringing.

                  • Shanreagh

                    @ Robert re the jellyfish……the articles had several foci re the jellyfish….one was that snorkelers in our Marine Reserve needed to be aware of jellyfish in greater abundance and earlier than in previous years. We used to get them after Christmas in Northern HB years ago often at the end of a long hot summer and in later years down here. They are here now, mid November.

                    The other article was from Boris Blue Cod who lives at the old bait shed at Island Bay here in Wellington. BBC set out the best ways of dealing with these stings. Gone is the idea of sloshing vinegar.

                    Splash lots of seawater on.

                    Apparently putting warmed seawater on followed by immersing in hot tap water for 20mins, elevate, put ice packs around and take pain relief.

                  • Anker

                    Thanks Shanreagh re the gender critical views. I know we are on the same page about this and I appreciate your contributions on GC stuff.

                    Re Swordfish. Well he has said on this site he is a "dead man walking" re his cancer. So I give anyone in this situation licence to say what they like (but that doesn't mean you have to) . I do wholeheartedly agree with him on issues such as the PMC, cultural elites etc. I really do.

                    I cop quite a lot of flack on this site. Its not easy. But there you go.

                    Interesting about your first husband. My husband the same re things Maori. I have been called racist (not on this website, another one). I don't consider I am, but the definition seems to have changed. I think CRT says all white people are racist.

                    I see it as being about having different ideas.

                    I don't like three waters for much the same reason Stuart Munro has articulated. I see it being something Labour has been very sneaky about. I understand you likely disagree with this.

                    I am very concerned about the dampening down of science in this country. Men can be women if they so declare. And I think it was reprehensible what happened to the Listener 7. I think they are bang on. And I understand Mason Durie didn't think Matauranga Maori was science either, nor did he want it regarded as such.

                    But from my point of view, its not a racist thing that I don't think MM

                    is science. I am also extremely concerned about the education systerm and the rates of school attendance in this country.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      There's a dampening down of science in this country?

                      I'd like to hear more of your view on this.

      • pat 1.3.4

        It is worse than that…it is deceitful because the Government have inferred that 3 Waters will reduce the cost of any necessary infrastructure upgrades…patently false when they are proposing to add an additional layer of bureaucracy and the borrowing mechanism will be at a premium to direct Government funding.

        If, and it is by no means a given , we attempt to improve the quality, delivery and discharge of (largely) metro water services the costs will be greater under 3 Waters than they otherwise needed to be….however I will suggest here now that the expense and impact on everyones lives will render any great improvement unachieved….and perversely it will be the financially challenged that suffer the most, and Maori are over represented in that cohort.

        And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters.

        This policy has little to do with 'fixing' water and a lot to do with politics

        • Robert Guyton 1.3.4.1

          "And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters."

          That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath!

          • pat 1.3.4.1.1

            "That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath"

            Thank you for agreeing that 3 Waters is an exercise in futility…and at increased cost

            • Robert Guyton 1.3.4.1.1.1

              I didn't. 3 Waters is not supposed to address the nitrate issue – did you think it was?

              • pat

                And yet all those cows in the ads…and all the 'this'll sort the farmers out rhetoric'…so, yes Robert, im afraid you did

                • Robert Guyton

                  There were ads?

                  I didn't. But don't let that stop you, pat, attributing.

                  And don't be afraid – give it your best shot!

                  • pat

                    Lol…a gift for you Robert, one you desire greatly…..Zyzzyva.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Zyzzyva is a genus of South American weevils, often found on or near palm trees. It was first described in 1922 by Thomas Lincoln Casey, Jr., based on specimens obtained in Brazil by Herbert Huntingdon Smith. Casey describes Zyzzyva ochreotecta in his book Memoirs on the Coleoptera, Volume 10:"

                      Thanks for your gift, pat.

                      I'm embarrassed to own that I've missed your meaning though.

                      Perhaps you might explain…

            • Shanreagh 1.3.4.1.1.2

              Oh dear.

              Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it. smiley

              • pat

                "Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it."

                What did 'Pat think' Shanreagh?…certainly not what you attribute.

                • Shanreagh

                  Looking back you may have caught me with the/your sleight of hand regarding nitrates. You berate the concept of three waters for not fixing nitrate problem when it was not designed to do this.

                  So I did mis-attribute, sorry, as I was caught out by this fast strawman argument.

                  Did you want Three Waters to have an implicit role on nitrates leaching into water ways?

                  Times are hard we’ve lost or losing our sense of humour but wasn’t there the slightest little snigger about the concept of a huge big entity called ‘Everything’?

          • Shanreagh 1.3.4.1.2

            That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath!

            I am hoping though that 3 waters may have a role with community water (under council controls now) supplies that are tapped into by irrigators. There are water supply schemes that were set up by Govt and sold? to local owners decades ago. These are not caught by the legislation, as I understand.

            Over stocking and over fertilising is not caught by Three Waters per se though if run-off containing an over supply of 'nutrients' gets into catchment areas it may need to be removed. Some of the catchment areas around Wellington are strictly no go areas for the general public, or if you do go there are strict conditions.

          • weka 1.3.4.1.3

            That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters"

            At the risk of councilsplaining you, isn't that for councils to fix?

          • Stuart Munro 1.3.4.1.4

            I cannot help but feeling that, if dairy farmers are going to treat our waterways like sewers, they should be obliged to build oxidation infrastructure.

            This is known technology – there's no mystery about what happens to waterways if they don't.

          • Anker 1.3.4.1.5

            Robert, In reply to your question about my comment “there is a dampening down of science:

            Molly posted a few months back about the science curriculum at High schools. While developing the geology curriculum the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t. Molly also gave another example of her son, I think in his engineering degree covering MM the learnings being completely unscientific (please feel free to correct me Molly is the details aren’t correct).

            the listener 7 wrote a very respectful letter to the listener stating MM is important, but it is not science (a view Mason Durie agrees with). One of the 7 is Dr GarthCooper, who is Maori and has taught Maori med students Kaupapa Maori. Dr Siouxie Wiles and Shaun Hendry said it was hurtful and racist what the 7had written. Dawn Freshwater vice chancellor of Auckland Uni backed Hendrix and Wiles up. One of the scientists lost part of his teaching role due to this, Wiles and Hendry complained to the Royal society, who announced on their website page an investigation of the 7 who were members of the society would be held. There was an international outcry from sciences such as Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coune (Chicago university) and at least one other notable international scientist in support of the 7. Three months later the Royal Society backed off.

            in my own field, a number of years back at a seminar onMaori approaches, I was told my evidence based approach was an example of colonisation.

            Gender ideology and queer theory have infiltrated academia and we now have policy decisions and even laws resulting from this ideology, Judith Butler a key person in queer theory postulates the biological sex is a social construction. This bat shit crazy idea (from the States) has wormed it’s way into our culture and lead to denial of basic biological facts.

            these are just a few examples. . Understand that Richard Dawkins is coming to Nz next year, so if you are interested you may want to attend his lectures.

            btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it. Like Christian’s are entitled to their views

            • Robert Guyton 1.3.4.1.5.1

              "the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t."

              Anker, I would suggest that direct observation of phenomena, using eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc. is EXACTLY what the scientific method entails.
              I wonder if you might consider and respond to this question: does everybody have the same relationship with water, do you think? I have friends who surf and their relationship with salt water is very different from mine.

              • Molly

                " I would suggest that direct observation of phenomena, using eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc. is EXACTLY what the scientific method entails."

                I would suggest that's where it STARTS.

                It is part of the whole – not the whole itself.

                It's usually followed by:

                1. a theory regarding that observation;

                2. a design to test that theory;

                3. experiment using that design;

                4. if required, adjustment and repetition of 1-3 until a reasonable conclusion can be made;

                5. Conclusion.

                "the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. "

                So, that's the observation instruction.

                What's your guess as to the scientific theories that will result?

                • Robert Guyton

                  Why do you suggest that Maori suggest only standing in the water and on the rocks?

                  What makes you think they don't encourage theorising, designing, testing, adjusting, repeating, concluding?

                  I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you might imagine that cultures other than our own might follow a process such as you described.

                  • Molly

                    Robert. The initial comment (months ago) was a report of a conversation I had with someone that was involved with producing the new updated high-school curriculum.

                    When the advisors where queried about the some of their curriculum inclusions this was the response. I can't surmise anything from this, and neither – frankly – can you.

                    "I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you might imagine that cultures other than our own might follow a process such as you described."

                    Don't understand this sentence at all.

                    But – "other than our own?".

                    Am I not part of the Maori culture then Robert?

                    Is my approach to knowledge following observation heresy?

                    A repetition of the question to Shanreagh:

                    How are you defining the Maori race, and their culture?

                    Are you confident your definition is not limited in scope and inclusion?

                  • Incognito

                    Few things are more interesting than the power which a little knowledge of scientific matters gives us of seeing wonders in the commonest objects before us, and if what I have said be true on a grand scale, it is also true on a small scale, if we cultivate the faculty of observing nature truthfully, taking care not to be deceived by thinking we understand the things themselves because we have learned to make use of the terms applied to them. Always make it a point in attempting to investigate a subject, to know definitely what is meant by every word you use and hear, and do not be deceived by mere terms or theories; but go plainly to ascertain the laws of nature for yourself, apply your reasoning powers to them; and every one of you may add something important to the stores of human knowledge, if you will only find the occasion to examine common things more accurately than others have had time or opportunity to do before you, and record your observations in perfectly simple and truthful language.

                    The Geological Action of Water.

                    https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout33-t4-body-d2.html

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Perfect.

                    • Molly

                      I've been trying to determine what it is that really bothers me about assigning extra meaning and significance to Māori contributions to understanding, art, culture etc, and I've come to the following view:

                      It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning.

                      It's another form of racism, but one that makes those that perform it feel great.

                      I (like many others) have a sincere and deep appreciation for the many aspects of Māori culture, art and perspectives and give it due value. It doesn't need the condescending fripperies and mangled reinterpretations currently assigned to meet current political criteria.

                      So, I find the mental gymnastics and tortured applications of Māori cultures, understanding and arts to be a patronising dismissal of the existing integral value and quality.

                      Unfortunately, this acceptable version of racism is becoming more and more familiar.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Molly – can you give us an example of a Maori "contribution to art, culture etc." that has had "extra meaning and significance" added to it?

                      I'm seeking to understand what you are meaning by your comment.

                    • Molly

                      @Robert Guyton

                      "I'm seeking to understand what you are meaning by your comment."

                      Robert, I admire your conversation work and lifestyles choices, but find your approach to dialogue on here to be disingenuous so I'm not going to spend much time answering your question, as I know you have participated in many of these discussions and are equally capable of doing a search when memory fails.

                      The new biology curriculum has been discussed before:

                      https://ncea-live-3-storagestack-53q-assetstorages3bucket-2o21xte0r81u.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-07/CB%20Learning%20Matrix%20%20.pdf?VersionId=ym7ZMD.EKtzLAbjX3rbpa4xONDW1IqhZ

                      Elizabeth Kerekere redefining Māori culture and knowledge for self-promotion and political purpose:

                      https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/handle/10063/6369

                    • Molly

                      @Robert Guyton

                      …. conservation work… blush

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Robert, I admire your conversation work and lifestyles choices, but find your approach to dialogue on here to be disingenuous "

                      You find my "approach to dialogue here to be disingenuous"

                      DISINGENUOUS!!

                      What the..???

                      Disingenuous? Really??

                      Hugely offended, me.

                      You don't trust the veracity of my comments??

                      Please explain. I do not understand your comments.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Robert Guyton…

                      17 November 2022 at 10:19 pm

                      Join the crowd. Now I have been told

                      I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist

                      I find this incomprehensible when none of my posts offer to tutor them or counsel them……When I futilely, I find now, try to explain my views on reading yet more grinding anti Maori posts and the affect it has on me I am told this is a political blog

                      I think they have decided to 'stick it' to anyone who tries, in any way shape or form to disentangle or make sense of their arguments or seek clarification.

                  • Molly

                    @Robert Guyton

                    "…DISINGENUOUS!!

                    What the..???

                    Disingenuous? Really??

                    Hugely offended, me."

                    The outrage almost sounds sincere (although you may want to work on it with your drama teacher a while longer. I think there's someone here at TS who could help you when they recover from their swoon).

                    Robert, it's just a personal opinion. I have no doubt that most here find you erudite and witty, a charmer of the first degree.

                    If TS had a popularity contest, I'd probably still vote for you.

                    "You don't trust the veracity of my comments??"

                    Didn't say anything about your truthfulness, more your technique. You enjoy it, others appreciate it. I just weigh up the energy costs of engaging and what is produced when I do, and often make the decision not to bother.

                    Example below:

                    "Please explain. I do not understand your comments."

                    Your declared lack of understanding is often a precursor to a request. Given your propensity for making requests, and then ignoring the content of answers in order to focus on an irrelevance – on this thread – at this time, I'm just going to say "No."

                    • weka

                      fwiw, I can't tell if Robert's response to your comment that he is being disingenuous is real or playful.

                      Also fwiw, I don't understand what you meant when you said,

                      I've been trying to determine what it is that really bothers me about assigning extra meaning and significance to Māori contributions to understanding, art, culture etc, and I've come to the following view:

                      It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning.

                      and was going to ask for clarification.

                      I thought this was going to be a really interesting aspect of the conversation, to tease out how people see Māoridom in such different ways.

                      It seems like the conversation has become heated in places, and sometimes threads go on to long, so not really expecting a response. But my own response was along the lines of it's not 'extra' meaning, it's just meaning. Same way that I relate to most cultures. To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture.

                      But it’s also possible I didn’t understand what you meant 👍

                      I’m open to having this conversation at another time too.

                    • Molly

                      @weka

                      I like Robert. I disagree with him on this topic, but find he plays devils advocate more than anything else, so don't actually get much out of taking time to interact with him.

                      As you said, he comes across as playful, but these are issues of governance, democracy and policy and these discussions should be able to take place with seriousness.

                      I posted above in response to Robert's similar question, but he didn't reference it when he responded. So, I'm not going to waste much time there.

                      "To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture."

                      How do you reconcile the fact that today, Māori have links to the both the present and the past, the colonised and the coloniser, the first settlers, and the more recent settlers. Questions such as this have to be clearly answered if we are changing the forms of ownership and governance.

                      If they don't make sense, or hold together under challenge or scrutiny, this approach should be abandoned.

                      The heated aspect doesn't bother me. I try to be clear, without equivocation or making judgements about those I am interacting with. Also, happy to just disagree.

                      However, I have work to get on with. As you say, another time.

                    • weka []

                      If they don’t make sense, or hold together under challenge or scrutiny, this approach should be abandoned.

                      If what don’t make sense?

                      I agree that issues of co-governance need to be explored in depth. What I see in these conversations over time on TS is people not understanding each other (both sides). My wish would be that people slow down and make more effort to get what the other person is saying, rather than trying to push one’s own view. The eternal dilemma for TS (from which I am also not immune) ☺️

                      The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Hi weka. My question was genuine. From Molly's statement, it seems she feels that where added meaning and significance is assigned (not sure by whom) to say, Māori art (not sure if that art in general or a particular piece) then whoever did that, did so because they believe the art has n intrinsic value, and only gets some following their own contribution.

                      I remain quite puzzled, as you can see. Perhaps you found more meaning than I did?

                    • weka []

                      I didn’t understand what Molly meant either, and had pretty much the same question.

                      (it wasn’t your question I was unsure about, more your later response to the idea that you were being disingenuous. Having been watching from outside the conversation for a while but certainly not reading all of it, it looks like people are increasingly talking past each other and starting to retrench into positions)

                    • Molly

                      @weka and @Robert Guyton

                      Robert asked a question @ https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921602:

                      "Molly – can you give us an example of a Maori "contribution to art, culture etc." that has had "extra meaning and significance" added to it?"

                      I answered it @:

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921618

                      "The new biology curriculum has been discussed before:

                      https://ncea-live-3-storagestack-53q-assetstorages3bucket-2o21xte0r81u.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-07/CB%20Learning%20Matrix%20%20.pdf?VersionId=ym7ZMD.EKtzLAbjX3rbpa4xONDW1IqhZ

                      Elizabeth Kerekere redefining Māori culture and knowledge for self-promotion and political purpose:

                      https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/handle/10063/6369"

                      but because I had answered similar questions before, in conversations with Robert thought that this repetition was unnecessary, as searching previous comments would have answered his question. (I am also aware, that no matter how many examples are provided, they will be ignored – as previous ones have been or explained away using the most patronising rhetoric).

                      Instead of replying to the examples, Robert (once again) drifted off into a dialogue about the comment rather than the examples. It is a familiar pattern in conversations with Robert.

                      All I am trying to do is patiently point out to all those who are telling me what I am, and how I think, and what I value, that actually, they are incorrect.

                      That's all.

                      Unless of course, they can bring themselves to admit that when they speak of Māori, my Māori perspective is not wanted and doesn't meet the grade, so I am not included.

                      At least that would be honest.

                      weka – "The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?"

                      Of course.

                      There are a lot of things that are true for all peoples. Including the fact that they don't all think the same way, or hold the same ideas, or believe in the same things, or place differing values on the loss of democracy even if it appears to favour them.

                      The fact that so many on here, speak not for themselves, but for all Māori with such certainty, is to me an obvious form of racism.

                      I know many of say you don't understand, or can't comprehend but that is because your idea of Māori has definitive boundaries and understandings and limits the ability for comprehension when other viewpoints are expressed.

                      And that, is one of the many reasons why the current co-governance proposals should be abandoned. The attribution of that certainty, that has not be defined, determined or agreed upon.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      You "answered" my question, Molly, by offering a series of links???

                      Hmmmm…

                      Underwhelmed.

                      I feel an answer should be compiled by the person, not addressed by the provision of links.

                    • roblogic

                      @Molly,
                      Co-governance has almost nothing to do with all that cultural stuff.

                      It's a Treaty partnership that obliges the Crown to include Māori representation. Which you apparently resent for reasons that are not clear.

              • Anker

                The scientific method involves observation, but more than that. It is the establishment of facts through testing and experimentation e.g for the covid vacinnes, medicines in general. Maybe you would be interested in listening to Richard Dawkins when he comes.

                Re water, everyone has a subjective experience of water that varies. Some people get pleasurable experienes with it (surfers, swimmers). I remember David Parker talking at a Labour Party conference about swimming in rivers and how important that was to him. Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance. They are entitled to this, but it has no place in public policy. Same with your surfer friends (btw I haven't heard surfers elevating themselves as the people who need to be in charge of water).

                Fact: Human beings need water for survival.

                • Robert Guyton

                  "Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance. "

                  All people should have this. If they haven't, we have gone wrong.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Exactly though some view water as an extractive resource, something to be used, utilitarian.

                    Some of the most beautiful paintings and poetry speak of water. Looking at the force of huge waterfalls or feeling the sea and tide on one's feet on a turning tide.

                    But people with those feelings or who may water as part of their creation stories are to be disregarded as being of no benefit.

                    It is strange therefore when reading of different ways to communicate that story telling is being used as a 'new' way for retailers etc.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Some cultures regard water in a manner that elevates the water to a place above the prosaic, the status of commodity or receiving environment for waste. Other cultures do not. Some cultures regard water as sentient and possessing of subtle qualities such as the ability to communicate with humans; personhood, in fact. Other cultures dismiss such regard as nonsensical.

                      There are cultural differences to the relationship between people and water.

                  • Shanreagh

                    The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?

                    Weka this is a very profound question. It is very common in many families to have connections between past and present to want to know about one's family and learn things about the past. Genealogy is a fast growing hobby.

                    But not for others.

                    Then there are others who believe the past can tell them nothing of value for today and the future.

                    In part of my family every Christmas stocking has an orange in the toe. This is to remember the trip ashore by my gt grandfather in the Canary islands on the way out to NZ in 1884 with his children. He brought back bananas and oranges for his young children, oldest one 11. They had never seen oranges before.
                    My Gt Grandfather was on the very last boat out to the ship, by which time my 11 year old grandmother was very worried that she would be left to take the four of them on to NZ by herself.

                    So some would have traditions and others would not.

                    Tolerance either way is the aim.

                • weka

                  Anker,

                  The scientific method involves observation, but more than that. It is the establishment of facts through testing and experimentation e.g for the covid vacinnes, medicines in general.

                  Do you accept that people can do that process of observation, and testing to establish facts in their home garden? eg what is the best condition to grow tomatoes?

                  Re water, everyone has a subjective experience of water that varies. Some people get pleasurable experienes with it (surfers, swimmers). I remember David Parker talking at a Labour Party conference about swimming in rivers and how important that was to him. Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance.

                  I think you call it special significance because you don't share the belief. To me it's not special, it just is 🤷‍♀️

                  They are entitled to this, but it has no place in public policy. Same with your surfer friends (btw I haven't heard surfers elevating themselves as the people who need to be in charge of water).

                  Fact: Human beings need water for survival.

                  And if humans could live by reductionist facts alone, you might have a point. But we can't. Humans are utterly dependent upon healthy water ways and cycles for survival and wellbeing. That's what this whole fight is about. The people who think water is an isolated thing and the people who understand that water is a complex being that flows through all of life on the planet.

                  When we treat water as an isolated thing, we perceive is as being able to come from anywhere. We don't need rivers or lakes, we can just take the most polluted waters and distill, filter or refine them. This world view is how we end up in situations whereby we contaminate the water table. This is happening as we speak in south Canterbury, and the solution being proposed isn't to stop polluting the waterways with industrial ag practices, it's to build an industrial denitrification plant to remove some of the nitrogen before it gets reticulated to people's houses.

                  In that situation, humans need water to survive. But what we will find is that it gets harder and harder to access clean water to survive because we have conceptually separated water off from the rest of life.

                  The people in south Canterbury who have bore water instead of reticulated water won't have their water cleaned up a bit by the council. If they can afford it, they can put in some filtration on their property, again this will remove some of the nitrates. If they can't afford that, too bad I guess. They can also drive to town and fill up plastic water containers with water from outside the contaminated area.

                  Can you not see how insane this is?

                  there are also boil notices in places because of other kinds of pollution. Add to that, the the pollution of the waterways and now the water table will kill aquatic life.

                  This is why I don't trust the Pākehā dominant culture to either know how to fix the problem, nor to prevent worse from happening. NZ should be up in arms that we are at the point of contaminating aquifers.

                  The reason we're not, and the reason we allow this to continue, is because we, culturally, believe water is a thing separate from nature and a resource to be used at our convenience. Māori cultures generally do not believe that, they believe that water is life. Integrating Te Tiriti into water governance is one of the few options we have left now.

                  • weka

                    afaik there is nothing in what I have just said that is incompatible with science as a key way of knowing for humans. Science is necessary but on its own it's not sufficient.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Yes agreed Weka. Being aware of science, its benefits, it ways of working in no way stops us from seeing if there are other good practices in other cultures.

                      It is all education. We can learn from all of it.

                      There are several practices involving the use of Poroporo.

                      First

                      https://teara.govt.nz/en/artwork/26966/poroporo-plant

                      Second

                      https://www.kiwiherb.co.nz/about-us/herb-profiles/poroporo/

                      Maori knowledge (by observation and shared record) of the uses they made of Poroporo were shared and that is the reason that it was investigated & used as a constituent for birth control.

                      In Australia indigenous people recorded that plunging into a particular pool with Ti tree all around where the leaves had drifted down to the pond seemed to improve various skin complaints.

                      'Tea tree oil is distilled from the leaves of the Melaleuca alternifolia plant, found in Australia. The oil possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, and antifungal properties. A person can treat acne, athlete's foot, contact dermatitis or head lice using tea tree oil'.

                      https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262944#risks

                      Observation plus science.

                      No reason to deny the benefit of either.

                    • Anker

                      I agree with you, science is necessary, but not sufficient. But science as a discipline needs to be ring fenced and preserved. Here is a link about the scienctific method.

                      https://www.simplypsychology.org/steps-of-the-scientific-method.html

                      Science has allowed our civilisation to make extraordinary advancements (of course this has come at a cost in the terms of global warming). But of course it was the climate scienctists who warned us decades ago of what was going to happen if we didn't slow down carbon emissions. So while many of us may have made the observation that the climate is changing, we would need more than that to verify that is the cause and also to test out theories as to why that is. Observation would never be enough.

                      Human beings of every culture are entirely dependant on water for survival. Agree. Yes its true I don't share the belief that water has special significance for some people. That is about meaning and belief. But people are entitled to their beliefs.

                      I like to keep things simple. An example for me is when it was discovered that Wellington water had not been flurodated for a few years. I think there was a quick tweak to the law that allowed the DG of Health (Ashley Bloomfield) to order councils to fluordate the water. Job done. Not everything is that easy to fix of course.

                      So in the city I live in, there has been a chronic underspend on water infrastructure. Other parts of NZ have councils who have done much better than my city. So the solution to this problem is to find a way to fund a massive project of updating water and waste pipes. So how do we fund such a massive undertaking? According to Peter Davis (Helen Clarks husband) et al, the most straighforward way is to issue government bonds. Sorry don't have a link for this article, I read it ages back. But it makes sense to me.

                      In my opinion, Including Maturanga Maori in the science curriculum is doing a diservice to both forms of knowledge.

                    • Incognito []

                      According to Peter Davis (Helen Clarks husband) et al, the most straighforward way is to issue government bonds.

                      Nope, you got that wrong.

                      The other major issue is funding. I don’t see how bonds get around it. Yes, they could be spread over a number of years with rates meeting the costs – but that could have been done without the cover of bonds.

                      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/wellington-shouldnt-assume-bigger-is-better-for-local-government [comment by Peter Davis]

                    • pat

                      @ Incognito

                      Although the thrust of the article agrees with my position it contains much circular argument…eg.

                      'They began with road maintenance costs, which vary considerably across councils. Some spend $50 to $100 per resident per year on roads; others spend up to $650.

                      But the difference in costs is not driven by council size – or at least not directly. A lot of low-population councils are geographically vast, with large roading networks to support. Population density matters, as does the amount of driving."

                      This demonstrates (proves) nothing…certainly not whether population density is a deciding factor in providing adequate or sustainable service….indeed it dosnt even ascertain whether either of those conditions are met.

                      If this is the quality of our governance then we are truly without hope.

                    • Incognito []

                      @ pat

                      What’s that got to do with Peter Davis and bonds as per Anker’s assertion??

                  • roblogic

                    A fair comment. Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits.

                    Whereas Māoritanga holds certain things as sacred that we have long since profaned in our heedless pursuit of Money

                    • weka

                      I would say neoliberal capitalism that grew out of the big cultural shift that was the birth of modern science. Descartes, Bacon, and so on, the dudes who decided that matter and spirit are separate, and that humans are somehow distinct. The regressive nature of the churches in the West at that time didn't help.

                      We could trace that back to the advent of agriculture perhaps. Or as Douglas Adams put it, coming down from the trees in the first place was a bad idea.

                      Whatever it is, we are fortunate in NZ to have Māori presenting us daily with a different way of thinking and knowing.

                    • Molly

                      "Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits."

                      Our modern culture…roblogic.

                      Of which we all play a part. As a Pākehā, I have never voted or made life choices that support a neoliberal capitalist approach to people and the plant. Are you sure you can lay accusation at the feet of all Pākehā? Are you also certain that no Māori has participated in the growth or development of a neoliberal capitalism?

                      Or when you speak of Māori, is it an abstract concept, devoid from all those with Māori whakapapa?

                    • roblogic

                      I'm talking about broad cultural phenomena not individuals.

                      Religion, culture, economics, politics are all fair game for generic criticism. Every system made by humans has its flaws.

                    • Molly

                      @roblogic

                      So broad culture, has mechanisms for representation. ie. elections, democracy or some other form, even if it is imperfect.

                      Where are the mechanisms to ensure that representation is actually achieved by the co-governance model?

                      And who are they representing if not people?

                    • roblogic

                      Found in 2 minutes of googling. You should try it.
                      .
                      https://www.threewaters.govt.nz/news/bill-1-the-water-services-entities-bill/

                      WSEs are responsive to councils’ planning processes
                      Revisions to the Bill make it clear that WSEs need to support councils’ planning processes and growth strategies.

                      Ensuring all voices are heard at the table
                      The make-up of the Regional Representative Group will be required to consider the appropriate mix of metro, provincial and rural councils to ensure smaller councils have a voice alongside larger councils.

                      Increased accountability to communities
                      The Entities will be required to have an annual shareholder meeting to keep them accountable to communities. This is in addition to the existing requirements in the Bill around responsiveness and accountability to communities, which exceed the current requirements in the Local Government Act.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Our Pākehā dominant culture……

                      Means what it says, 'dominant' is an important qualifier and as roblogic says not individuals. In a Pakeha dominant culture other cultures play a minority role. I suspect that this is despite all the efforts by this govt and some others to 'honour the treaty' and to do right by it, for its partner that is also in a minority.

                      Very succinct and well put Roblogic.

                    • Anker

                      REsponse to Incognito….opps my mistake

                  • Shanreagh

                    The reason we're not, and the reason we allow this to continue, is because we, culturally, believe water is a thing separate from nature and a resource to be used at our convenience. Māori cultures generally do not believe that, they believe that water is life. Integrating Te Tiriti into water governance is one of the few options we have left now.

                    Water is life. Generally the human body can survive about 3 days without water.

                    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325174#role-of-food

                    • weka

                      “water is life” strikes me as a Western, reductionist view though. My explanation above, when we say that water is necessary for humans to stay alive two things happen,

                      1. water is separated off from the rest of nature, while humans are centred
                      2. the health and the wellbeing of the water is decentred

                      Compare to “ko wai ko au, ko au ko wai”. Which can be translated in a reductionist way into English, or it can be taken as a doorway to understanding that we are water, where water is part of nature (ie the rivers, lakes, streams, marshes, oceans, rain, snow and so on), there is no inherent separation. Water as a relation.

                      Inherent in the concept is the relationship between humans and water as a being that by its very nature isn’t just h20, but is the river, the lake, the marsh and so on. The whole thing.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Yes Weka. I agree with this

                      Compare to “ko wai ko au, ko au ko wai”. Which can be translated in a reductionist way into English, or it can be taken as a doorway to understanding that we are water, where water is part of nature (ie the rivers, lakes, streams, marshes, oceans, rain, snow and so on), there is no inherent separation. Water as a relation.

                      Inherent in the concept is the relationship between humans and water as a being that by its very nature isn’t just h20, but is the river, the lake, the marsh and so on. The whole thing.

                      My point, not very well expressed, was trying to move those who regard water just as an extractive resource of no meaning except for making money, to perhaps say that 'as humans we need water, & a whole heap of water and this water needs to be safe and clean'. So we move them along the scale from, something to use until it is all gone, to a quarter/eighthway house that says:

                      if I am to continue as a human it is more important to use water for humans than for making money.

                      (don't underestimate the difficulty of doing this with the prosperity gospel here in NZ

                      The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth)

                      https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/.

                      We are not going to persuade these types of people by a mix of arguments, only one that messages straight to their back pocket, ('wallet may get slimmer') or their health ('you might die of a waterborne disease'). We will not persuade them by the simple philosophical truths from the observed natural world and its interlinkages.

                      This is the same reason mind changing in human rights by appealing to a fair go for all individuals is lost on these often same people. So we have education, laws, policies in workplaces backed up by a willingness to use performance penalties so that breaches in the workplace are dealt with. So that people know that their ability to derive money and status may be interrupted by their breaches.

                      Catering with messages like these does not mean we reduce it to just human focussed except for those whose belief is this.

                      Just as we are never going to persuade those to whom Maori art, observed natural linkages, wisdom, use of Rongoa, use of myths and legends to reinforce messages are just emblems or tokens of very mild interest from a so-called less devolved culture.

                      ‘It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning’. From Molly, gives the flavour of this view and dismisses any point about having to translate/interpret because we are not all bi-lingual Maori/English.

                      We waste time doing trying to educate. (Sacha's point)

                      We need to counter them (accept we cannot persuade them to a different view) and built up interest, or at least remove the idea that this change is threatening, in those who are willing to face a different future in the hope that it is better than the one we have now.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Anker wrote:

                    "In my opinion, Including Maturanga Maori in the science curriculum is doing a diservice to both forms of knowledge."

                    Where then, Anker, do you think it should sit?

                    Or do you believe there is no place for it in our education system?

            • Molly 1.3.4.1.5.2

              All pretty much accurate, Anker. (Three of the previous conversations can be found here).

              "btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it."

              Agree.

              • weka

                the idea that Māori don't have a unique relationship with water is also a belief, not a scientific fact.

                • Molly

                  "The idea that Māori don't have a unique relationship with water is also a belief."

                  I'm sorry, weka this does not make any sense in terms of the discussion.

                  Since when did governance models move away from the secular and into the spiritual and undefinable?

                  • roblogic

                    Since when does "secular" mean "ignoring all cultural or spiritual values"?

                    It merely means neutrality or no official preference. Not the abolition of religion or culture. Our values always inform our politics.

                  • Shanreagh

                    This secular/spiritual/undefinable is very much like the counter arguments put forward when groups wanted to do a Karakia at the start of meetings…,back in the early 90s.

                    I am so sad we still seem to be mired in this. It was a non event then and it is now. Those of us involved in potentially difficult discussions usually welcomed as much guidance, good fortune and blessings that came our way. We also found that the more extended meeting protocols had a benefit in that we 'met' each other. So often in high powered policy type meetings people just rushed in and out. People took it for granted everyone knew each other, they often didn't.

                    Do people really not know now how far we have come, how much we have benefitted, especially in govt circles from an involvement from Maori?

                    Usually legislation/policy will help with direction so that the undefinable becomes defined by legally or by use. When you hear in the lands field iwi members talking of their relationships, passed down from ancestors, with stones, streams, paths etc and hear the stories and in the health field about Rongoa Maori there is a richness. Also a sense of calmness, even though discussions can get feisty. Not saying that Pakeha don't have a relationship with their Turangawaewae, they do.

            • Nic the NZer 1.3.4.1.5.3

              This is some kind of an internal dispute across NZ university departments and staff. Its unlikely that anything to do with logic is relevant here, but if you can understand the groupings involved and their relationship to each other sense can probably be made. Richard Dawkins appears to have stumbled into it, thinking it was a relevant discussion of epistemology of science.

              There appear to be some departments of history and sociology in NZ who are writing alternative histories of science which prioritize Maori understanding of scientific ideas. This goes a bit off the rails when your taking mythology and interpreting a genuine discovery of modern scientific concepts from it (which Dawkins objects to) because there is too much extrapolation beyond the evidence, though this is ultimately about history of science, not what is science anyway.

              But as with other kinds of inter departmental dispute you don't see what the actual problem is from the arguments made. This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it.

              • Molly

                "This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it."

                That appears to becoming a standard for academic discourse at present.

              • Anker

                Interesting Nic. I also read a Spinoff article with a woman defending Maori scientific discovery in the context of Dawkins visit. Nothing she said changed my mind. It is the dumbing down of science.

                • Incognito

                  We will never know what you're referring to if you don't provide a link, so that we can read the same article, form our own opinion, and discuss this with you here, if we so wish sad

                  https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/14-11-2022/busting-the-myths-about-matauranga-maori

                  • Shanreagh

                    I am not referring specifically to the article other than to say it is a competent placing of the differences and similarities of Maori observational techniques and records and European observational techniques.

                    I left TS for a break after reading the posts from Anker & Molly. I felt intuitively that both were on the wrong road and pulling our examples that were not relevant. In a word after much thought I felt 'colonised'. I through upbringing, family connections, job choice share much of the wonder at Maori observational techniques as I do with the work of Fibonacci whose observational techniques moved maths from Roman derived to Arabic derived.

                    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-man-of-numbers-fibona/

                    He drew on Arab/Hindu maths.

                    My point is that nothing in the world that we observe or describe or do, is static. We are as much able to draw on any culture on the world as we are our own.

                    I have never had this 'colonised' experience as a lily white Pakeha but felt that this is what is happening to me in the comments in both these posts.
                    What must it feel like to those who study, who receive comfort and mana from a Maori world view.

                    So for some reason (lost on me*) we need to compare observational methods brought here from Europe with that used by Maori. So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this. So to determine the simialrlites and differences we use one of the methods to guide us. This is truly weird in my view.

                    No mention of ethnographers who might be able to compare the systems of indigenous peoples, we just 'find' Maori science does not look like the European method so we dismiss it. No need to study that we say.

                    Can we not accept that Maori have a different set of skills, meaning and views from European and other cultures.

                    They just have and there is value in looking at these from the standpoint of learning. Of course in all learning, if it is successful, we take meaning forward into our lives.

                    To learn these in NZ is of particular benefit as we seek to find out how Maori relate to the world, & NZ, as our indigenous people. While we may study say Mayan culture/science and learn from it, our next door neighbours, spouses and children may be Maori. Surely we would want to know their beliefs, what makes them tick.

                    Can we not accept Maori science/geography etc is just there. It exists. Maori exist in our communities and have as much right to their views as die hard scientific methods proponents.

                    Extending this further Maori have as much right to have their views considered, in the operations of govt as anyone else. In fact looking at the treaty you could probably say they have a right enshrined as one of two treaty partners.

                    In my view knowledge is knowledge where it comes from. To try to look at it/evaluate it through the lens of European culture is shortsighted at best and 'colonising' at worst. There is room for both.

                    I doubt I have captured my unease properly/competently but I feel the denigration still.

                    • Not really it harks back to the unhelpful slants that are being taken in the ‘Woe is me’ Three Waters and the involvement of Maori is going to be the end of civilisation as we know it’ brigade. This is a subset of the anti Treaty stuff and I have no wish to discuss this.
                    • Incognito

                      I’m trying to be as agnostic and dispassionate as possible and try judge comments on their merit and strength of arguments. This is not easy when there are so many things going on simultaneously and people are not necessarily on the same page talking about the same stuff and in the same language with the same concepts and meanings – and I’m not even talking about te reo Māori vs. English and the diverging interpretations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

                      I thought of expanding this by using an illustrative example and analogy of translating Shakespeare into te reo and what ‘claims’ could be made about the nature of that result in terms of culture, meaning & understanding, and appreciation, etc., and if and how it could or would affect the contributing components – cultural emergence, which happens all the time and everywhere without even realising because it is actually such a natural process (for humans). But I don’t have enough time and this is a political blog, and perhaps not the most appropriate place for those kinds of musings and discussions, which are or should be a-political and non-partisan.

                    • Shanreagh

                      @ Incognito…

                      17 November 2022 at 5:47 pm

                      This is fascinating topic. It would be great to get feedback from audience/actors presumably bi-lingual on the emotions and cultural issues evoked. Undoubtedly having two contexts to draw from makes it a richer experience. Much the same listening to the language rather than reading the subtitles when watching foreign made films.

                      Othello and The Merchant of Venice have both been translated in Maori.

                      My partner is a polyglot. When speaking the language he 'becomes' a person from that country in language and often mannerism.

                      Different cultures have different responses or views from ours.

                    • Anker

                      "I felt intuitively that they (Molly and Anker) were on the wrong road and pulling out examples that weren't relevant"

                      I think that means we don't agree with you.

                      "I felt colonised" . I am not sure what that feeling is.

                      "Can we not accept that Maori have a different set of skills, meanings and views from European and other cultures".

                      I agree. But I also agree with the Listener 7, Jerry Coyne and Richard Dawkins that Maturonga Maori is not science.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Well expressed, Shanreagh.

                    • Sacha

                      So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this.

                      And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them.

                • Shanreagh

                  …..a woman defending Maori scientific discovery

                  Too much to expect you to recall that this 'woman' was an academic. Professor Ella Henry director of Māori advancement at the AUT Business School.

                  DEGREES

                  • PhD, Māori Entrepreneurship

                    Auckland University of Technology, Auckland, New Zealand31 Jan 2008 – 20 Jul 2012

                  • Master of Philosophy, Management & Employment Relations

                    University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand28 Feb 1991 – 12 May 1995

                  • Bachelor of Arts, Sociology & Māori Studies

                    University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand1986 – 1990

                  She possibly may have a better handle on the issues than you or me. She definitely is better qualified than I am.

                  • Molly

                    Doesn't mean that the article referenced makes a convincing argument though.

                    All you've done is listed her qualifications, and attempted to shame Anker by inferring that she is too stupid to understand.

                    Why didn't you state what you found particularly compelling, or ask Anker about what she had issues with?

                    Your pattern of discourse lately is becoming less informative, and more performative.

                    FWIW, I read the article, and also thought it was a load of bollocks. And, before you ask, no, I don't want to waste time discussing it with you.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Why didn't Anker summarise the article. She did not bother to even link to it, name the person who was the author, just referred to her as 'a woman'.

                      My frame of reference with the qualifications was to put paid to the statement of 'a woman' made by Anker, you know any old woman. I was to say that this is not in fact any old woman but one with a Phd and holding a Professorship. On the face of it qualified to write on this topic.

                      I made the point that I was not going to match any of my qualifications up against hers. Hers is a voice worth listening to from the point of view of scholarship.

                      She possibly may have a better handle on the issues than you or me. She definitely is better qualified than I am.

                      I have no inkling of Anker's qualifications and made no mention of these. You have misunderstood my point on this. If Anker's qualifications match hers then fine. Mine certainly don't. I made the point that her qualifications may mean that she has a better grasp of the topic.

                      There is a difference between scholarship and opinion. We here have many and varied opinions, they are not scholarship, though the authors of topics have clear, researched referenced topics to get us going.

                      As to the word 'performative', I have seen this too often lately and so conclude that this is a new buzz word and therefore essentially meaningless.

                      As to 'performative' and performance though, I do lay claim to being a tree and a squeaking rat (as an adult) in a pantomime of Dick Whittington and a chorus girl in another pantomime. Then I've been in a women's barbershop type chorus and in the chorus of the Messiah probably half a dozen times since age 13.

                      Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults. wink

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh

                      I was going to let you calm down after the above embarassing comment (which you had ten minutes to delete after posting. Have really you got such delayed self-awareness?):

                      I left TS for a break after reading the posts from Anker & Molly. I felt intuitively that both were on the wrong road and pulling our examples that were not relevant. In a word after much thought I felt 'colonised'. I through upbringing, family connections, job choice share much of the wonder at Maori observational techniques as I do with the work of Fibonacci whose observational techniques moved maths from Roman derived to Arabic derived.

                      …I have never had this 'colonised' experience as a lily white Pakeha but felt that this is what is happening to me in the comments in both these posts.
                      What must it feel like to those who study, who receive comfort and mana from a Maori world view."

                      But you're back because you just can't help yourself.

                      "Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults. "

                      Yes, I noted that comment, and previously refrained from responding… but since you brought it up…

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921154

                      "When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary."

                      Shanreagh, you have no need of any help in this respect.

                    • Anker

                      Thanks for all of that Molly.

                      I agree with you, the article was a load of old bollocks. For me it is more evidence that scholarship standards are declining in this country.

                    • Molly

                      @Anker.

                      No problem.

                      Would've contradicted you if I felt persuaded after reading the article, but I didn't – so here we are:

                      Two women with opinions.

                      Oh, the colonising we could achieve if we continue in this vein!

                      wink

                    • Shanreagh

                      Molly…

                      17 November 2022 at 9:22 pm

                      I wrote my 'embarrassing' article that you have quoted from at 1.55pm this afternoon. I had experienced a profound feeling that I likened to colonisation instancing an attempt to compare Maori observational and learning techniques using an Euro-centric lens. This is what I see now happens to many cultural aspects of our Treaty partner.

                      To resile from this at 9.00pm, some 7 hours later I would have had to contact Mods etc. But I do not resile from the views. I have always felt that much of the arguments against Maori culture were based on misunderstanding, often wilful misunderstanding.

                      Looking back to this morning I see I may have been radicalised online, on TS shortly after reading yours and Anker's continuation of unsympathetic posts. I was very disturbed by them.

                      Not by swift and sure logical rational argument as one would think that radicalisation happens but by reading plodding, 'One nation, One race' theories.

                      This was a profound feeling for me. You mock it, call it embarrassing.

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh

                      "This was a profound feeling for me. You mock it, call it embarrassing."

                      I'm sure it was a profound feeling for you.

                      I do not mock it.

                      I am entirely serious: you should be embarrassed for referencing colonisation in such a way.

                      But it appears you are not.

                      Ah, well… t'was obviously a forlorn hope.

                    • Shanreagh

                      I was going to let you calm down after the above embarassing comment (which you had ten minutes to delete after posting.

                      There is nothing embarrassing about that post or the one I made at 1.55pm. It had several comments but you have not mentioned any to take issue with instead referring to and mocking this happening of mine.

                      You do not understand the modern meaning of ‘colonisation’ if you cannot grasp what I am saying. You are using it I suspect to mean events harking back to Britain and its colonies etc.

                      I used it advisedly, with care and with a knowledge that something had happened to me that had happened to others, that I had empathised with previously. I was not using it to be disrespectful of those today who still experience the effects of colonisation. (Strange that you should be caring about my use and presumably feel I, as a Pakeha, was a bit cheeky laying claim to this modern feeling? )

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh

                      This is a political blog, where people express (sometimes opposing) viewpoints.

                      I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist.

                      I will not return to this thread.

                      You carry on if you need to.

                    • Shanreagh

                      I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist.

                      Good grief, I would never want to be your personal tutor, and neither would I want you to be my therapist. You lack empathy. Empathy is needed on a political blog.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Sacha…

                    18 November 2022 at 8:57 am

                    So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this. (from Shanreagh's post of 1.55pm 17/11)

                    And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them. (from Sacha)

                    Exactly.

                    Got it in one. Thank you for reading the post of mine, it was a profound experience for me to feel. smiley I am grateful.

                    Imagine if you are Maori and you will find this framing and running comments is not limited to water but to

                    • every part of the way you live your life, your beliefs is run through the lens of the dominant culture,
                    • the resultant criticism is unsparing of not only you and your culture, but any others who see what is happening
                    • others, often from the dominant culture, cast aspersions based on their lack of knowledge and often from an unwillingness to even seek out other sources.

                    I can see how people feel colonised, like smothered, then it also feels as if every time you try to comment the ground rules change.

                    Why is there a need to smother rather than letting people just be?

                    If we accept that Maori have a different world view on water, land etc.

                    • What is the skin off our collective noses?
                    • Does the sky fall in? No, of course it doesn't.
                    • Could we learn something from these views? Of course we can
                    • RedLogix

                      All human knowledge starts with observation and the ability to abstract patterns from it. All societies – not just the Maori – did this and have legacies of cultural knowledge that can be found everywhere. As Anker, Molly and myself have repeatedly stated – there is no reason to discount or diminish this legacy. Embedded in this knowledge are gems of information and insight that an open and curious mind will often usefully re-interpret in light of modern understandings.

                      But scientific method took this deep tradition of observational sense making a vital step further. It introduced a series of formalisms and methods that delivered determinism and repeatability, which in turn enabled the mass development of modern materials, technologies and engineering.

                      This is why claims that MM is the equivalent of science are so fatuous. There are no Maori Maxwell-Heaviside Equations ; General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, or Standard Model . There is no deep and formal body of Maori Mathematics that underpins all of these ideas and much more. It was not that Maori, like pre-Industrial people everywhere, were not good observers of their world – but geographically isolated, lacking a written language, access to energy, and a secure economic continuity – they simply did not get to a Scientific Revolution. That being the state of the overwhelming record of human history.

                      Nonetheless humanity collectively moved toward modernity over millennia of slow, patchy progress, with many crucial historic contributions from many cultures. That it was Europe where this progress came to a focal point during the Rennaissance and later the Industrial Revolution, is entirely an accident of geography and historic circumstance. It was always going to happen somewhere, sometime – and was most likely to happen in a part of the world that was both populous and well connected, socially fluid, yet sufficiently stable, and had easy access to coal, metals and minerals. It could have happened 2000 years earlier during the late Bronze Age, but they missed out on the easy access to coal – Europe in the 1600 – 1800s however ticked all the boxes all at the same time. And this changed everything.

                      The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Well described, Redlogix. Yours is a comprehensive description of a significant portion of the modern world.

                      This though:

                      "The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history." is a puzzle. You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation. Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?

                    • Molly

                      "You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation.

                      So, the basis of this is nothing to do with the Treaty of Waitangi?

                      It is about the "colonisation tool" that science provided "white supremacists"?

                      "Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?"

                      What do you consider successful?

                      If we are talking a successful colonisation – wouldn't the most successful ones involve genocide and elimination of any record of previous peoples?

                      (There are instances of this occurring in the past pieced together by scientists, but not recorded in the oral histories and traditions of those that replaced the original people.)

                      It wasn't science that aided those colonisers, it was the propensity for violence.

                      The competition for resources is reduced by many of the applications of scientific knowledge, reducing that impetus for genocide and colonisation.

                    • RedLogix

                      @Robert

                      Apologies for not responding sooner. You ask a perfectly reasonable question.

                      You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation. Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?

                      Elsewhere I have made the case that all pre-Industrial societies were compelled by the limits of photosynthesis to expand their territories in order to thrive. Hence what Molly has described as 'a propensity to violence' that drove the Age of Empire.

                      By the 1600's the Europeans were at least 100 years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology and political sophistication, and this combined with an age old habit of empire drove one last impulse of colonisation across the globe. The resulting cultural collisions were both tragic and inevitable.

                      As colonisers encountered indigenous cultures everywhere there was a considerable dismay on both sides; the new arrivals were often disturbed by what they saw as squalid, backward lives, racked by superstitions and violence – while the local people had their sense of the world turned inside out, losing both identity as a people and their values and traditions trampled on. Even with the best motives imaginable – this was always going to be a traumatic collision.

                      And in attempting to explain this highly visible European dominance it was perhaps understandable that many would reach to the idea that perhaps white people were naturally superior by breeding. After all they were very familiar with selective breeding livestock for improved characteristics, and their social hierarchies were still dominated by hereditary family dynasties and intense social class structures. (As were almost all pre-Industrial societies.)

                      With the benefit of a century of science in a wide range of field from genetics to geography, from psychology to philosophy we now understand that these explanations for European dominance invoking racial supremacy were profoundly incorrect – but neither should we rush to judge our ancestors who lived in a completely different intellectual landscape than us. The history of humanity is littered with once powerful bad ideas that have long been discarded.

                      And to underline Molly's last sentence – the very process of science and industrialisation also undermined the core driver of empire. It was no longer necessary to expand territory to become prosperous; instead access to knowledge, educated people, stable rule of law governance, stable commerce and the ability to trade on fair terms have become the signature themes of an astonishing explosion of modern prosperity and human development our ancestors would find indistinguishable from magic.

    • joe90 1.4

      A national body free of vested interests with the teeth to stop discharges of nitrogen-rich wastewater would be an improvement.

      A scientist says Waimate's drinking water nitrate contamination could be linked to recent changes in land use, including wastewater discharge from Oceania Dairy's factory in South Canterbury.

      Since August, 615 residents using the Lower Waihao Rural Water Scheme's water have been warned against drinking tap water due to high nitrate levels.

      The Waimate District Council previously suggested flooding in the region was to blame, and Environment Canterbury thinks it is unlikely the dairy factory is a factor.

      But University of Otago public health specialist Dr Tim Chambers said: "It looks like the Oceania Dairy Factory could be playing a part."

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/478670/scientist-s-dairy-factory-concerns-over-unsafe-drinking-water

      In New Zealand our drinking water standards say that the maximum amount of nitrate contamination allowed in our drinking water is 11.3mg per litre. This is based on the World Health Organisation limit necessary to avoid blue baby syndrome.

      But there’s growing evidence that other health impacts occur with nitrate in water at much lower levels.

      International studies have shown a link to increased bowel cancer risk at only 0.87mg/L of nitrate in drinking water. That’s one thirteenth of New Zealand’s current limit of 11.3mg/L.

      And a new study found that at just 5mg/L, nitrate contamination in drinking water can increase the risk of a premature birth by half.

      https://www.greenpeace.org/aotearoa/story/nitrate-contamination-and-drinking-water/

    • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5

      Why this reform? After all, the water coming out of my taps is (still) drinkable, or at least I haven't been told otherwise, and I'm certainly not going to waste electricity boiling it. Plus the various storm/wastewater drains here seem to be doing their jobs.

      Still, my local city council has indicated how they intend to spend some of that lovely lovely 3Waters money – sounds a bit 'woke' ("We fight the woke…"), and a little too tangata whenua for my liking, but live and let live.

      Some water infrastructure and public health experts claim that significant investment is required to maintain, if not enhance, the provision of water services in Aotearoa New Zealand. Maybe the proposed 3Waters amalgamation is flawed and won't deliver good value for money, but (for it or agin it), it is a way to channel the dosh, and maybe get some economies (and expertise) of scale. Tokyo has 37 million residents.

      Six year wait for three waters reforms far too long, says Scottish expert [27 June 2022]

      Three Waters: National's policy to be revealed closer to election [13 Nov 2022]

      Water Issues Under The Spotlight At Major Conference [17 Oct 2022]
      Three waters reform and the need for resilience in the face of climate change are among the key topics at the Water New Zealand Conference and Expo 2022 which gets underway tomorrow at Te Pae in Ōtautahi Christchurch.

      More than 1000 delegates are expected to attend the annual event which attracts leaders and professionals from across the water services industry and business.

      Heck, with that many NZ water service leaders and professionals able to spare time to attend, it's a wonder Kiwiland has any water worries at all.

      With the Three Waters reforms under fire, let’s not forget that safe and affordable water is a human right [3 November 2022]

      Bottom line (for me): the 3Waters initiative is one way to improve our ageing water infrastructure, and it has progressive (or frightening, depending on your PoV) treaty partnership elements. In order to test whether it's too progressive, implement it sooner rather than later. If it subsequently proves unworkable, e.g. those 'bloody Maaris' start gouging unearned profit (they're learning) and increasing my costs [user-pays costs are OK – I don't use much water], then I'll consider voting for a party promising repeal. IF.

  2. joe90 2

    The special operation is going well.

    President Vladimir Putin proposed to deprive acquired citizenship for "military fakes" and discrediting the army. Such amendments were made to the draft law on citizenship adopted in the first reading, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the text of the document.

    https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2022/11/13/putin-predlozhil-lishat-grazhdanstva-za-diskreditatsiyu-armii-a26337

    google translate

  3. Labour want to gamble on an affirmative action with a resource that concerns everyone. Antidemocratic as well as profoundly unwise.

    There is part of the/your problem in comprehension (which surprises me as you are usually an on to it poster)

    This is far from the almost sneering ref to 'affirmative action'.

    This is far deeper than this. It involves whether or not NZ as a constitutional entity respects and delivers on a Treaty signed in 1840 and abides by the rule of law that governs us all. If we, as the Crown, let 'honouring the treaty' go there are any number of International laws/bodies that will remind us.

    I would like NZ to keep moving forward in its race relations, abiding with rather than having our country taken to an international court of some sort, or even the Supreme court here in NZ so that we (the Crown) are forced, in the glare of publicity to back down.

    There is precedent for this. NZ Maori Council took the Govt of the day to court during the time of asset sales and won. (As far as land was concerned this was to the private relief of many PS who were working in this field) So our treaty partner was able to stop part of the sale of land during a time when nobody else could.

    And more profoundly, good people/nations abide by the rule of law and know when it is the right thing to do.

    Two parties signed the Treaty HMQ England now HMK NZ, and Maori. Do you think we need a referendum on whether to abide by the rule of law? Do we need a referendum say on the metes and bounds of our diplomatic efforts with China, Taiwan, Asia generally? How about a referendum on the type of seal to use on new roads? There has been some grumbling here in Wellington about the type of seal that was used on Transmission Gully (noisy) I reckon that would be a good topic for a referendum.

    But a referendum on whether to abide by a Treaty or the rule of law……nah. Silly idea.

    • Stuart Munro 3.1

      Treaty activism is all well and good, but the legal fiction only goes so far. Britain made a number of similar treaties around the same time, and they were boilerplates, or translations of boilerplates.

      I didn't ask for a referendum – I merely want the power to vote out the Maori stewards of the 3 waters, should they prove to be as corrupt as Max Bradford, and steal that critical public resource.

      I've seen no sign of an oversight or audit mechanism – which is irresponsible.

      • Shanreagh 3.1.1

        There were a number of oversight mechanisms, I thought, that came forward from the select committee process.

        Hunter Thompson above says the bill was reported back with 'minimal changes' that, with a lack of time to look myself, I took as meaning they did not go forward. He of course may be thinking audit and oversight ramifications were 'minimal' whereas I thought/think they would strengthen the bill.

        As much as I do not like the electricity reforms of Max Bradford I do not describe him as being corrupt any more than I would describe those in the Labour Govt who signed up to the neo lib reform coming out of Chicago as being corrupt.

        Giving effect to treaties, no matter how they are written, whether boilerplate or not is based on settled law/precedent, subject to judicial oversight and in some cases international legal over sight.

        • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.1

          much as I do not like the electricity reforms of Max Bradford I do not describe him as being corrupt

          His electorate were not so forgiving – they were not able to send him to prison, but at least they could throw him out.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.2

        "Max"!

        We should have known!!!

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