Open Mike 14/10/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 14th, 2016 - 200 comments
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200 comments on “Open Mike 14/10/2016 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    14 October 2016 at 6:20 am

    Michael O’Brien nails it.

    ‘If we’re serious about tackling crime, we need to tackle poverty’

    Studies from around the world tell us several important things about poverty and crime. Poverty is linked with crime. Those who experience poverty are much more likely to be the victims of crime than those in more affluent communities. As a British review of the research noted: “Most children raised in poverty do not become involved in crime, but there are higher victim and fear of crime rates in disadvantaged areas”.

    That said, there is good evidence that, compared with their more affluent peers, children brought up in poverty are more likely to be reported as having behavioural problems, more likely to be reported for aggressive and/or risk-taking behaviour, more likely to be excluded from school, more likely to be the victims of criminal behaviour, more likely to grow up in communities with limited social and recreational opportunities and facilities.

    Two important points need to be made about this evidence:

    If we are serious about tackling crime then we need to tackle poverty

    First, none of the research links these outcomes and behaviours with bad parenting by parents who don’t care. It is the poverty of lives, experiences and opportunities that is critical. Put simply, children and families need the resources to enable them to have a full life in which children are given every possible opportunity to grow and develop.

    The UK research indicates that poverty is identified as an important part of the context of crime, while US research goes further, indicating that poverty causes crime.

    Whether it is context or cause, if we are serious about tackling crime then we need to tackle poverty as part of the response.

    Of course, we have seen nothing from this government which indicates they are really serious about tackling poverty. It is much easier to tackle the poor and to blame them for poverty, and for crime.

    Poverty is expensive

    Second, both crime and poverty are expensive economic and social failures.

    There are now good calculations of the costs of crime and the costs of poverty. Reducing poverty is seen as an important part of reducing the costs of poverty. If we are really serious about cutting the costs of crime, then we will need to be serious about reducing poverty.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/315600/'if-we're-serious-about-tackling-crime,-we-need-to-tackle-poverty‘

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1
      14 October 2016 at 10:58 am

      Of course, we have seen nothing from this government which indicates they are really serious about tackling poverty.

      What they’re serious about is increasing poverty. That’s what privatisation has always done throughout history. Rich people require the existence of poor people because people who can support themselves can’t be forced to make a few people richer.

      National governs for the rich and so they actively increase poverty.

  2. Paul 2
    14 October 2016 at 6:21 am

    Russell Brand and the Trews is back!
    In this episode he exposes the cruel trick that means whoever wins the US presidency, we’re all screwed.

  3. Paul 3
    14 October 2016 at 6:22 am

    How Hillary Laid the Foundations for Donald Trump’s Popular Neo-Fascism

    • miravox 3.1
      14 October 2016 at 6:53 am

      Goodness me! Trump is all Hilary’s fault… who knew?

      Btw voting for Trump is not disrupting systematic racism, it’s doubling-down (good Trump-ism that) on it.

      • Paul 3.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 7:07 am

        You should the Russell Brand video.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.2
        14 October 2016 at 8:19 am

        Trump isn’t “Hillary’s fault.”

        He is the fault of a two party one team, venal status quo in Washington DC.

        Within which the Clintons have been players for decades.

        • miravox 3.1.2.1
          14 October 2016 at 9:19 am

          Trump is the fault of Trump (he’s been saying nasty stuff since long before he got involved in politics) and the GOP who didn’t stop him when they should have. In fact they doubled down too and got in behind him.

          And there’s you making excuses for a grown man again, and assuming that someone criticising Trump is a uncritical of US politics generally and the Clintons specifically.

          • rhinocrates 3.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 10:48 am

            It’s raining today in Wellington and I have a sneaking suspicion that the Clintons have nothing to do with it.

          • Garibaldi 3.1.2.1.2
            14 October 2016 at 4:04 pm

            You are being a bit heavy handed there Miravox. CV is not making excuses for Trump, he’s just pointing out how stuffed their system is and what morons it throws up.

          • North 3.1.2.1.3
            14 October 2016 at 11:40 pm

            You’ve hit the nail on the head Miravox. And CV paints himself even more
            risibly the fanboy of a man ‘entitled’ purely on account of being from birth a fabulously rich spoilt arsehole. Save us from CV and Trump. Bullies the both of them.

        • marty mars 3.1.2.2
          14 October 2016 at 10:57 am

          “Trump isn’t “Hillary’s fault.”

          He is the fault of a two party one team, venal status quo in Washington DC.

          Within which the Clintons have been players for decades.”

          so trump is the fault of the system, and the system is the fault of clinton – lol at least labour didn’t get a mention

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.2.3
          14 October 2016 at 2:52 pm

          I tend to think Trump is the fault of those who came earlier, especially Bush x 2, and Reagan. Those latter have disenfranchised so many working people and trashed the social contract, leading to the disillusionment and discontent in US society now, on which the bottom-feeding Trump depends.

    • Psycho Milt 3.2
      14 October 2016 at 7:37 am

      Those damn liberals! If it wasn’t for them there wouldn’t be any fascist demagogues!

    • Johan 3.3
      14 October 2016 at 9:39 am

      “Trump is all Hilary’s fault”. Typical of right wing supporter for not taking responsibility for their flawed leadership, and policies. Trump like Key is of the narcissistic mold, will never admit to a mistake or see another person’s point of view as valid.

      • Colonial Viper 3.3.1
        14 October 2016 at 10:50 am

        “Trump is all Hilary’s fault”. Typical of right wing supporter for not taking responsibility for their flawed leadership, and policies.

        Yes I see the Left Wing is so much better at taking responsibility for the flawed leadership and policies of Obama and Clinton.

        Not.

        • Johan 3.3.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 3:00 pm

          …and what is wrong with Obama’s leadership and political aims???

          • Garibaldi 3.3.1.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 4:14 pm

            Are you serious Johan? Obama has been a total disappointment and a monumental flop. The only thing he has been good at is killing people. His drone warfare is an abomination and a despicable method of warfare. It’s all very well to be affable and congenial ( and to play golf with other dickheads), but that doesn’t make you a good Human Being. He will go off and join the ex Presidents social club, like all the others that have done their bit for “pax americana’.

            • Johan 3.3.1.1.1.1
              15 October 2016 at 5:32 pm

              Obviously, you know very little about American politics, and their checks and balance system, which restricts a presidents from doing what they wants to do.
              The drone investment was already on the books and signed off before Obama became president.
              Garibaldi, keep listening and viewing RT to shape your views of world politics.

  5. Ad 5
    14 October 2016 at 6:24 am

    Bob Dylan has won the Nobel Prize for literature. “New poetic forms” apparently. Way cool.

  7. TheExtremist66 7
    14 October 2016 at 7:40 am

    Helen Kelly has died 🙁

    • Ad 7.2
      14 October 2016 at 7:45 am

      Awesome fightet

    • Ad 7.3
      14 October 2016 at 7:46 am

      Awesome fighter

    • Manuka AOR 7.4
      14 October 2016 at 8:16 am

      Oh I am sorry.

    • James 7.5
      14 October 2016 at 8:30 am

      Was not a fan of her politics, but did admire her for her tireless fighting for what she believed in. Her passing is sad not only for her family and friends but for those she fought for.

      • Muttonbird 7.5.1
        14 October 2016 at 8:37 am

        Is this your attempt at considering the disenfranchised and vulnerable? Noted.

        • James 7.5.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 8:53 am

          Really you are a classless pathetic small minded little piece of work.

          Trying to score cheap troll points on comments about a lady’s death should be below even the likes of you.

          Try for once to treat comments with some respect. She deserves better.

          • In Vino 7.5.1.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 10:25 pm

            James, why did you have to start with, ‘Was not a fan of her politics’? Your comment would have seemed genuine without that unnecessary, slightly hostile snip. As if you are so magnanimous in praising her, even though she was wrong. When someone takes your bait, in comes your abusive reply. Sorry – you are the cheap, disrespectful troll, and your attempt to take the high moral ground is rather unconvincing. You should have the brains to understand that her politics were the basis of her passion, and now is NOT the time to question them. I suspect that you do have those brains, and wanted someone to bite, just so you could leap in – abusively.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.5.2
        14 October 2016 at 8:45 am

        Agreed, would not wish cancer on anyone

    • Olwyn 7.6
      14 October 2016 at 8:34 am

      The death of Helen Kelly is a huge loss, and her courage, hard work and resourcefulness on behalf of New Zealand workers, right till the end, is an inspiration to us all. My condolences to her family, and to her many friends and supporters.

    • marty mars 7.7
      14 October 2016 at 8:52 am

      rip Helen – you are remembered, you are loved. Thank you for everything you have done for others.

      • Chooky 7.7.1
        14 October 2016 at 10:13 am

        +100

        • Garibaldi 7.7.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 4:20 pm

          Yes Helen was the epitome of people we can admire.
          I remain a bit sceptical of those who opposed all the good work she did offering their condolences. How about coming out and admitting that what she did and what she stood for was superb , you right wingers.

          • Gangnam Style 7.7.1.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 4:56 pm

            Annoys me too, they were especially feral during the Hobbit dispute, were there any kind words for her then? I recall her being called a traitor & shit stirrer & a hater. I don’t buy their sincerity at all. (& why do they have all start with ‘I didn’t agree with her politics but…’). She will be greatly missed.

  8. b waghorn 8
    14 October 2016 at 7:56 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11728767

    Normally the thought of a vigilante gang would would wind me up , but these fullas have me conflicted .

    • James 8.1
      14 October 2016 at 8:32 am

      Or the could give the information to the police and allow hem to arrest those involved – as opposed to just moving them onto someplace else.

      And I’m not 100% convinced that they are totally legit themselves.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 8:40 am

        Its one way to remove the competition

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        14 October 2016 at 9:28 am

        Or the could give the information to the police and allow hem to arrest those involved

        What information?
        What proof?

        And I’m not 100% convinced that they are totally legit themselves.

        Nobody said that they were. Hell, even they say that they’re not exactly nice.

        But they do seem to care for the community which National, and it’s cutting of the police force so as to give the rich tax cuts, doesn’t.

        • James 8.1.2.1
          14 October 2016 at 9:38 am

          So they will be running people out of town with no information and no proof.

          Sounds legit.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 10:26 am

            No, they’ll have information, just not the type of stuff that the police can use.

            Dunno about you but I used to be part of the ‘criminal underground’ and know how it works. Probably couldn’t function there now, it was several decades ago after all, but at the time I was always amazed at how much people who weren’t in that scene didn’t know what was going on around them.

            They will know who the drug dealers are, they will know where they are. In a small place like that, if I was a drug dealer I’d be getting up and leaving. The police should be watching who’s leaving.

            • North 8.1.2.1.1.1
              15 October 2016 at 12:43 am

              Repeatedly in the past I have told good people from a small poverty stricken Northland town that there are safe and amonymous ways of alerting the authorities. Often they’ve responded that they’ve availed those ‘ways’……..and nothing.

      • b waghorn 8.1.3
        14 October 2016 at 12:50 pm

        i did note they only said they are against p , so i’m reading between the lines but i bet they supply the herbs.

    • Puckish Rogue 8.2
      14 October 2016 at 8:36 am

      Indeed, anti-drug (so he claims) which is good but what other crimes do they get up to?

      Is a case of the lesser of two evils?

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3
      14 October 2016 at 9:23 am

      When communities find themselves besieged and they’re not getting any help then they will fix the problem themselves.

      • James 8.3.1
        14 October 2016 at 9:38 am

        Or make new bigger problems.

        • tc 8.3.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 7:21 pm

          anyone recall shonky’s war on P comments many lies ago….must’ve been another aspirational target.

      • Stuart Munro 8.3.2
        14 October 2016 at 10:15 am

        I had this debate in a pols course years ago.

        The middle class presume that insofar as we have a law-abiding society this is a product of the formal process of justice.

        Back when I was deepsea fishing, one of my colleague’s daughters was raped. A gang ‘resolved’ the matter.

        This too was a legal process, a justice system reflecting the values of a community and conducive to law abiding behaviour.

        Not being familiar with the antecedents of our legal system my fellow students could not imagine what I was talking about.

        Of course a healthy justice system would not rely on gangs – but a healthy justice system would not allow a corrupt government to steal public assets either. Robin Hood and the Yakuza are products of an unjust environment.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.3.2.1
          14 October 2016 at 10:37 am

          Back when I was deepsea fishing, one of my colleague’s daughters was raped. A gang ‘resolved’ the matter.

          Similar happened with one of my nieces.

          Of course a healthy justice system would not rely on gangs – but a healthy justice system would not allow a corrupt government to steal public assets either. Robin Hood and the Yakuza are products of an unjust environment.

          QFT

        • Psycho Milt 8.3.2.2
          14 October 2016 at 11:47 am

          This too was a legal process, a justice system reflecting the values of a community and conducive to law abiding behaviour.

          A shit justice system reflecting a community with shit values. When I was 20, a group of us nearly got creamed by a gang after someone decided one of us had raped a woman none of us had ever heard of. I hated those fucks way more than I hated the police at the time.

          • Stuart Munro 8.3.2.2.1
            14 October 2016 at 12:13 pm

            Every justice system is loved or hated according to the integrity of its results.

            That gang leaders can identify and threaten drug dealers publicly suggests a relatively low level of systemic integrity in that area. Communities access the justice systems that are permeable to them.

            A justice system led by a Judith Collins creates a significant demand for informal justice.

      • Bob 8.3.3
        14 October 2016 at 11:00 am

        Careful Draco, you are bordering on ‘market’ speak there

  9. Philj 9
    14 October 2016 at 8:18 am

    Thanks Helen, for your huge contribution and being a fighter for truth and social justice.

  10. Ad 10
    14 October 2016 at 8:37 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7e3QKKOp50

    If you have a few minutes, this is Michelle Obama in full flight yesterday.
    Michelle would be a pretty interesting politician.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1
      14 October 2016 at 8:43 am

      FFS don’t fuel the Obamas dynastic aspirations

    • Chooky 10.2
      14 October 2016 at 10:16 am

      Michelle would have way more credibility if she had come out against the destruction of sovereign country Libya by Hillary Clinton with the complicity of her husband

      …this is a war crime!!! ( they should be tried as war criminals)

      Michelle Obama is a hypocrite

      http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/riley-waggaman/hillary-clinton-turned-nation-into-isis-safe-haven_b_9571956.html

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/12/barack-obama-says-libya-was-worst-mistake-of-his-presidency

      • Chooky 10.2.1
        14 October 2016 at 10:28 am

        The real WAR CRIME disgrace Michelle Obama should be making speeches about!

        (…committed by Hillary Clinton and her husband)

        http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/obamas-worst-mistake-libya/478461/

        • Chooky 10.2.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 10:40 am

          The aftermath of Clinton’s and Obama’s war attack on Libya and Libyans

          http://globalnews.ca/news/2984171/nearly-11000-migrants-rescued-off-libyan-coast-in-48-hours-italian-coast-guard/

          https://www.rt.com/op-edge/333611-libya-failed-destroyed-state/

          …”… US arrogance admits no mistakes. The people of the world really should demand all of these US officials and NATO and French and Italian and British officials be charged as war criminals. Because that’s the only way you can characterize what was done to Libya. There was no reason, no purpose, except outright piracy. Libya had the highest standard of living and an enormous amount of stability. It had built up a vibrant infrastructure, it had modern cities. All of this has been completely and systematically destroyed. What was done to the water and the irrigation, the man-made river – all of this. It is unimaginable the crime and an accounting must be demanded, not further intervention. Because ‘failed state’ means this is ‘something that just happened’, it failed on its own. They should label it a ‘destroyed state’, a state destroyed by US and NATO bombing…”

          http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-us-hand-in-libyas-tragedy/5444887

          • marty mars 10.2.1.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 10:48 am

            you are losing it sooky – attack michelle obama now? what a bunch of dim sadwits you trump defenders are – no morals, no guts, no strength, no honour, no courage – nothing, just weak efforts at distraction from the abomination that is your man trump.

            • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2016 at 11:47 am

              Whew! Have you got your two minutes hate done for the day now?

              It’s hilarious watching how the liberal left in the US has now fallen into the same mudslinging gutter dwelling smear politics that it has always accused the right of driving.

              It’s even funnier watching local lefties get sucked in by it all under the pretense of Clinton being the morally righteous candidate.

              • marty mars …
                14 October 2016 at 12:05 pm

                cv = “no morals, no guts, no strength, no honour, no courage – nothing, just weak efforts at distraction from the abomination that is your man trump.”

                • Colonial Viper …
                  14 October 2016 at 12:08 pm

                  Watch frail Clinton stumble and fall mate. Her entire inner circle and Secret Service detail know how sick she is. Maybe she should get some guts and own up to not being fit for office.

                  • marty mars …
                    14 October 2016 at 12:13 pm

                    what about that sniff – is it a habit or some deadly disease – with all the revelations about trumps disgusting behaviours I worry but I spose the tests will show – he’ll do them after his audit is finished and he sends his tax returns in ha ha

                • left for dead …
                  14 October 2016 at 1:01 pm

                  On this day, really. Stop the hate PLEASE.

                  [I completely agree. This isn’t the first time recently that Open Mike has descended into ad hominems and vitriol. Yes OM is looser in terms of what is ok, but there are limits and it isn’t a free for all for people to abuse each other. I suggest that everyone rethink where the boundaries are (or reread the Policy). Everyone in OM toady can take this as a general warning, and if I see repeat offenders I will start banning. I don’t have time for this shit today, and it’s easier to drop someone in moderation than try and edit and explain.

                  Please also consider how your behaviour affects other people (especially people reading or wanting to comment). – weka]

                  • Tautoko Mangō Mata …
                    14 October 2016 at 2:07 pm

                    “Glenn Greenwald ‏@ggreenwald Apr 29
                    Is it really necessary to spend next 6 months pointing out that “criticism of Clinton” ≠ “support for Trump”? Just get a different tactic.

                    And the reverse.

                    +100 @ left for deadOn this day, really. Stop the hate PLEASE.
                    Today I’m really feeling the loss of Helen Kelly and have no patience with petty bickering which comes across as trivial, childish and distracting.

                    • marty mars …
                      14 October 2016 at 2:26 pm

                      it is open mike – if you don’t like it don’t read it and if you want to ignore it go ahead – if you want to insult others (trivial, childish and distracting) do that too – nice enough for you two?

                      [free for all abuse that has no political point is not ok. Please read the warning above or at the bottom of this thread – weka]

      • Psycho Milt 10.2.2
        14 October 2016 at 11:01 am

        Michelle would have way more credibility if she had come out against the destruction of sovereign country Libya by Hillary Clinton with the complicity of her husband

        Yeah, those damn Libyans would never have tried to overthrow Gaddafi if Hillary hadn’t ordered them to do it!

      • Naki man 10.2.3
        14 October 2016 at 8:48 pm

        “Michelle would have way more credibility if….”

        Cooky as a fanboi of Penny Bright, Munter Bradbury and Trump you are not fit to judge anybodys credibility.

    • Colonial Viper 10.3
      14 October 2016 at 11:01 am

      Do you know what is going to decide the election on Nov 8

      No, it’s not the liberal left’s current obsession with genital grabbing and the well timed and well co-ordinated “bimbo explosion” (to use Hillary Clinton’s phrasing) now targetting Trump.

      It is demographics and turn out. These two links will be very interesting to anyone wanting to understand what might happen on Nov 8.

      Brookings: Minority turnout determined 2012 election

      https://www.brookings.edu/research/minority-turnout-determined-the-2012-election/

      Cornell: How groups voted in 2012

      http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/

      IMO compared to 2012:
      – white turn out will increase significantly (back to 2000 or 2004 levels)
      – African American turn out will decrease significantly (back to 2000 or 2004 levels)
      – Trump will gain marginally more African American and Hispanic vote than Romney did
      – the gender split will be basically steady as per 2012 (amongst women voters Obama was +11 compared to Romney; I expect Clinton to come in somewhere between +10 to +12 compared to Trump)
      – Voters under 30: Trump will do noticeably better than Romney with Millenials but still be well behind Clinton (in 2012 Obama was +23 compared to Romney).

      • rhinocrates 10.3.1
        14 October 2016 at 1:51 pm

        the liberal left’s current obsession with genital grabbing

        I think you’ll find that it’s Trump who’s obsessed with genital grabbing. The liberal left tend to be interested in consent, or the obvious lack of it.

        If the response is well timed and well co-ordinated, good. Feminism is about effective unified action by women for women against rape culture and its proponents and apologists who try to downplay it or distract attention from or excuse perpetrators.

      • Sabine 10.3.2
        14 October 2016 at 2:07 pm

        You and Rush Limbough together say it so well.

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/13/here-come-the-rape-police-rush-limbaugh-reacts-to-trumps-sex-talk-scandal/

        ” “You know what the magic word, the only thing that matters in American sexual mores today is? One thing,” the conservative commentator said, according to audio released by Media Matters for America. “You can do anything — the left will promote and understand and tolerate anything — as long as there is one element. Do you know what it is? Consent.

        “If there is consent on both or all three or all four, however many are involved in the sex act, it’s perfectly fine. Whatever it is. But if the left ever senses and smells that there’s no consent in part of the equation, then here come the rape police. But consent is the magic key to the left.””

  11. Sanctuary 11
    14 October 2016 at 8:40 am

    RIP Helen Kelly. 🙁

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    14 October 2016 at 8:49 am

    On WikiLeaks, Journalism, and Privacy: Reporting on the Podesta Archive is an Easy Call

    When it comes to the question of whether and how the Podesta email archive should be reported, there are, in my view, five principles that ought to guide the decision-making process:

    1. A source’s motives are irrelevant in deciding whether to publish.
    2. Journalists constantly publish material that is stolen or illegally obtained.
    3. The more public power someone has, the less privacy they are entitled to claim.
    4. Whether something is “shocking” or “earth-shattering” is an irrelevant standard.
    5. All journalists are arbiters of privacy and gatekeepers of information.

    This pretty much.

    Russia may have hacked the emails (We have no proof that they did, only hearsay) but that is irrelevant to the content of those emails and the behaviour that they indicate.

    • Andre 12.1
      14 October 2016 at 9:14 am

      +1 to all of that.

      And whether Russia hacked the e-mails and/or is trying to influence the US election is a totally separate issue to be considered in it’s own compartment.

    • ianmac 12.2
      14 October 2016 at 11:11 am

      Agreed to all that me too Draco.
      The Expert Clinton team has played the distraction card- “the Russians did it so it doesn’t matter.”
      Remember the Dirty Tricks response from the Nats? The info was stolen so it doesn’t matter what it showed.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.2.1
        14 October 2016 at 12:30 pm

        Remember the Dirty Tricks response from the Nats? The info was stolen so it doesn’t matter what it showed.

        Yep. Always bugged me that. The Nats were admitting that the information that showed that they were a corrupt bunch that should rightly be in jail was true and correct but the jonolists helped spread the distraction.

    • McFlock 12.3
      14 October 2016 at 3:12 pm

      I actually agree.
      I’m not sure that the emails show anything to be annoyed about though. All seems pretty standard for private emails , no “I hid the stolen ballots over here” lines.Unlike the overt plotting in DP.

  13. marty mars 13
    14 October 2016 at 8:50 am

    trump can’t help himself

    “Earlier, Trump on Wednesday (Thursday NZT) used a rally in Florida to speak of a vast sinister conspiracy to keep him out of the White House.

    Addressing the release of emails apparently hacked from the Democratic Party and then published by WikiLeaks, Trump constructed a conspiracy theory that included the collusion of the Clintons, the Clinton campaign, the Clintons’ lawyers, the Attorney General, the Department of Justice, the FBI and the Commission on Presidential Debates, as well as Democrats and Republicans in Congress and the mainstream media.

    These actors, he suggested, were somehow involved in covering up various crimes by Clinton and seeking to prevent his election.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/us-election-2016/85329837/donald-trump-speaks-of-a-vast-sinister-conspiracy-to-keep-him-out-of-the-white-house

    yep just everyone out to get him, nothing to do with anything he’s done, he is a innocent, shamefully hounded for being honest, for being rich and successful and terrific.

    Please note the qualities of the man – a coward and weakling.

    • Puckish Rogue 13.1
      14 October 2016 at 8:59 am

      Preposterous! Everyone knows theres a VRWC not a left wing one 🙂

    • marty mars 13.2
      14 October 2016 at 9:19 am

      Nice speech michelle

      “… This is not something we can ignore. It’s not something we can sweep under the rug as just another disturbing footnote in a sad election season. Because this was not just a lewd conversation. This wasn’t locker room banter. This was a powerful individual speaking freely and openly about sexually predatory behavior. And actually bragging about kissing and groping women. Using language so obscene that many of us are worried about our children hearing it when we turn on the TV. To make matters worse, it now seems clear this isn’t an isolated incident. It’s one of countless examples of how he has treated women his whole life.

      I have to tell you that I listened to all this. And I feel it so personally. And I’m sure that many of you do too. Particularly the women. The shameful comments about our bodies. The disrespect of our ambitions and intellect. The belief that you can do anything you want to a woman. It is cruel. It is frightening. And the truth is, it hurts. It hurts…”

      http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/watch-choking-back-tears-michelle-obama-delivers-powerful-speech-on-trumps-abuse-of-women/

      you are going down don down

      • Colonial Viper 13.2.1
        14 October 2016 at 11:54 am

        CNN gave Clinton advance warning of debate question

        Speaking of conspiracy (interesting how an 11 year old tape of the Don gets released, and a couple of days afterwards a “bimbo explosion” [using Hillary Clinton’s phrasing] appears to drag the Don down) it seems that people in the media are coordinating very closely with the Clinton camp:

        https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/786176282706845697

        http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/11/media/donna-brazile-wikileaks-question/index.html?sr=twmoney101216donna-brazile-wikileaks-question1103AMVODtopLink&linkId=29832111

        How did the text of a CNN-TV One town hall question about the death penalty end up in the hands of the Clinton campaign ahead of time?

        New evidence on Wednesday suggests that TV One co-host Roland Martin may have been the link from the town hall prep process to the Democratic National Committee.

        In a hacked email published by Wikileaks, Democratic National Committee official Donna Brazile appeared to tell Clinton campaign communications director Jennifer Palmieri that “from time to time I get the questions in advance.” The March 12 email foreshadowed a question asked by TV One host Roland Martin at the March 13 town hall.

        Brazile was both a DNC vice chair and CNN political commentator at the time. But CNN flatly denied any coordination. “We have never, ever given a town hall question to anyone beforehand,” a CNN spokeswoman said.

        Martin did not deny sharing information with Brazile. Instead, when asked by CNNMoney on Tuesday, he said “my questions were shared with my executive producer and several members of my TV One team.”

        When asked in a followup question if he would explicitly rule out any sharing of questions with Brazile, Martin did not respond.

      • Karen 13.2.2
        14 October 2016 at 1:00 pm

        I shed tears this morning when I heard about Helen Kelly’s death. I shed more when I watched Michelle Obama fighting back her own tears delivering this speech.

        It is fair to say that I am in a rather emotional state today and I am feeling particularly intolerant of those commentators on the Standard who have dominated discourse with their attacks on Clinton and their defence of Trump. I find these people abhorrent, and I want to say a few things about why I feel this way.

        I went on my first protest march against U.S. foreign policy in 1968 and I have been continuously critical of U.S. foreign policy ever since. US foreign policy is often disastrous for the rest of the world. Some presidents have been worse than others, and Clinton is likely to be worse than Obama, but there have been many presidents far worse than either of them. It is my belief that Trump would be worse than any for the simple reason that he is a narcissist completely lacking in basic humanity. He doesn’t care a shit for anybody except himself. He is a misogynist and he is racist. He is greedy, he is dishonest and as far as I am aware, he has never sacrificed a single thing to make the world a better place.

        Hillary Clinton has done work to improve the lives of the poor and the disadvantaged in the U.S. I would have preferred a left wing candidate but this is not going to happen in the U.S.A any time soon so I support the best option – but she is a lot better than “not Trump.” She is also better than any of the Republican candidates.

        Are the people who support Trump misogynist and racist? Not necessarily. However, they are people who don’t think misogyny and racism are important, and from my point of view, that is almost as bad.

        I have been protesting against racism and misogyny as long as I have been protesting against US foreign policy but I will not be responding to any Trump apologists commenting here as they are not worth the time.

        • Karen 13.2.2.1
          14 October 2016 at 2:07 pm

          Filmmaker Michael Moore sums up Trump

          Michael Moore ‏@MMFlint 5h5 hours ago
          It’s as if Dr. Frankenstein wanted to see if he could create a creature that embodied every disgusting male trait all rolled into one guy.

        • One Two 13.2.2.2
          14 October 2016 at 4:31 pm

          Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize under false pretence

          Michelle might as well be given and honourary Oscar for that performance

          They’re all phony and fake which serve only to undervalue and undermine any ’cause’ they seek to attach themselves to

          It’s incredible how many dupes there are!

        • Garibaldi 13.2.2.3
          14 October 2016 at 4:51 pm

          Karen you don’t have to reply, but I just want to say that I agree that Trump is abhorrent and is a total disaster and can’t be let near the reigns of power.
          However, I feel the same about Hillary. Going by her past record she will HAPPILY lead ‘us’ into nuclear war. What the heck? The American system is failing us all.

    • tc 13.3
      14 October 2016 at 7:24 pm

      the entertainment business should be funding his campaign as its doing very well out of all the material he keeps dishing out.

      Alec Baldwin on snl is brilliant as the Donald.

  14. Robert Guyton 14
    14 October 2016 at 8:59 am

    “In the same way, I’d like to suggest that it’s past time for the inmates of modern industrial civilization to grow up, sprout some gonads—either kind, take your pick—and deal with the simple, necessary, and healthy realization that our species is not going to be around forever. Just as maturity in the individual arrives when it sinks in that human life is finite, collective maturity may just wait for a similar realization concerning the life of the species. That kind of maturity would be a valuable asset just now, not least because it might help us grasp some of the extraordinary possibilities that will open up as industrial civilization finishes its one-way trip down the chute marked “decline and fall” and the deindustrial future ahead of us begins to take shape.”

    The ArchDruid’s very readable today.

  15. Whispering Kate 15
    14 October 2016 at 9:25 am

    From what I can see Helen Kelly was never given an Honor in the New Zealand awards system – all shame to New Zealand that in her lasting months she was not awarded for her work for employees’ rights and health and safety on our work sites. There is something smelling bad in our civic system in this country. No matter what anyone’s ideology is, it cannot be ignored that Helen Kelly deserved recognition for her faithful endeavours for employees over her working lifetime.

    Safe Journey Helen, you will be missed.

    • repateet 15.1
      14 October 2016 at 10:01 am

      In contrast to honours awarded to those pets in the education system.

    • Olwyn 15.2
      14 October 2016 at 10:13 am

      What you say does raise questions about the Honours’ system. If it cannot transcend politics and honour someone as heroically good, dedicated and effective as Helen Kelly, it is badly compromised. An honours system that is reduced to dishing out awards for cronies cannot command broad respect.

      • dv 15.2.1
        14 October 2016 at 11:00 am

        Good comment Olwyn.

      • Draco T Bastard 15.2.2
        14 October 2016 at 11:04 am

        Here’s a question about ‘our’ honours system: Do the politicians ask us about who we think should be honoured?

        See, I’m pretty sure that they don’t. So, where do they get the lists from? The answer to that seems to be in the people who mostly get honoured – business people.

      • tc 15.2.3
        14 October 2016 at 7:31 pm

        Like the PM’s favourite local chef, an arrogant twat perfectly suited to his clientele.

    • Chooky 15.3
      14 October 2016 at 10:25 am

      +100 Whispering Kate

  16. Colonial Viper 16
    14 October 2016 at 9:36 am

    Transcript of Putin interview by French TV

    Question: Mr President, the thing is that the French do not understand why you are bombing these people you call terrorists. After all, it was ISIS who attacked us, but there are no ISIS forces in Aleppo. This is what the French do not understand.

    Vladimir Putin: Let me explain. It is another terrorist group, Jabhat al-Nusra, that controls the situation in Aleppo. This group was always considered a wing of Al Qaeda and is included in the UN’s list of terrorist organisations.

    What we find particularly depressing and hard to understand is that our partners, especially the Americans, are always finding a way to try to exclude this group from the list of terrorist organisations. Let me tell you why. It seems to us as though our partners are always repeating the same mistake. They want to use these terrorist organisations’ and radicals’ combat potential to pursue their own political aims, in this case, to combat President Assad and his government, and do not understand that they cannot simply stall them [the rebels] and get them to live by civilised rules after they have tasted victory over someone.

    We have reached repeated agreements with the Americans that they will differentiate between Jabhat al-Nusra and its like and the so-called healthy opposition forces, including in Aleppo. They have agreed that this is necessary. What’s more, we have even agreed on concrete deadlines, but nothing is done from one month to the next.

    http://thesaker.is/vladimir-putins-interview-with-the-french-tv-channel-tf1-transcript/

  17. greywarshark 17
    14 October 2016 at 10:18 am

    I would like to put in a full comment on Helen Kelly and her work but it won’t come on site though it has been recorded as when I tried a second time I was told it was a duplicate.
    Could it be released from Colditz?

    s there a limit on me since I got rude some months ago? What changes have there been to try and limit specious comments? Any?

    [You’re not in any form of moderation that I can see. However, there are other reasons that comments can get held up. Most often it’s if the system doesn’t recognise you. Sometimes that’s a new IP address or a misspelled handle or email. I’ll keep an eye out and release anything of yours that gets trapped ASAP. TRP]

    • greywarshark 17.1
      14 October 2016 at 11:20 am

      TRP
      Thanks. I had already put the comment on the other condolences post so had been recognised, but then took that off with a view to transferring it here, and replaced it with a shorter one.

      The system now isn’t allowing me to put the transferred post plus added extra links on it, up here. It has been registered in the system. but perhaps not noted when I removed it, and now I want to put it in the different post it still records it as published.
      As I went to some trouble to get good links I would like to get it up and honour Helen’s work more fully.

      [Open Mike seems a better place to have this conversation :-). Site does seem buggy this morning – weka]

  18. Grim 18
    14 October 2016 at 10:19 am

    I have a very simple question, that only requires a yes or no answer,

    if you have to go through mental gymnastics and wordy explanations to justify not being forthright and honest you are deceiving yourself and others and as such cannot be trusted.

    Question:
    If you know someone is sponsoring terrorism, is it ethical to accept funding from them for a personal campaign?

    Yes or No.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.1
      14 October 2016 at 11:06 am

      No.

    • Colonial Viper 18.2
      14 October 2016 at 11:57 am

      If you know someone is stoning women to death for sex outside marriage, is it ethical to accept funding from them for a personal campaign?

      NO

      (apologies for taking liberties)

      • weka 18.2.1
        14 October 2016 at 12:07 pm

        If you know someone sexually assaults women and thinks that is ok, is it ethical to promote them as the next President of the United States?

        • Grim 18.2.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 12:22 pm

          No,
          now can you answer with a simple yes or no,

          • Pasupial 18.2.1.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 1:59 pm

            If you know someone is endorsed by a terrorist organisation, is it ethical to promote them as the next President of the United States?

            When hate groups or their leaders support him, Trump makes half-hearted apologies or simply feigns ignorance. He accepted (and later returned) money from a well-known white separatist, then selected him as a delegate. (”Database error,” the campaign later said.) He denounced pro-Trump white nationalist robocalls, but acknowledged that “people are extremely angry.”…

            [former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard] Duke, a longtime neo-Nazi, has publicly praised the real estate mogul for months. Last August, he called Trump’s candidacy “a great thing,” and noted that Trump was “the best of the lot.” At that point, Trump’s nativist platform was clear — he had made inflammatory comments about Mexican “rapists” earlier that summer — but Trump still had an opportunity to distance himself from the white nationalist movement.

            Instead, in February, he utterly failed to denounce Duke… Amid an onslaught of public criticism, Trump disavowed Duke and blamed his initial remarks on a “very bad earpiece.”…

            on “Meet the Press,” Trump said he would support a Democrat over Duke, but added a caveat: “I guess, depending on who the Democrat (is).”

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-kkk-racism_us_57966095e4b0d3568f8415ea

          • weka 18.2.1.1.2
            14 October 2016 at 2:35 pm

            “now can you answer with a simple yes or no,”

            Yes.

            (as in, I can answer this question – “now can you answer with a simple yes or no?” – with a simple yes or no).

            Your original question upthread isn’t a simple yes or not question though. I would answer “it depends”. I’m not a moral absolutist.

            • Grim 18.2.1.1.2.1
              14 October 2016 at 3:01 pm

              And therein lies the problem, the reality is the question required a yes or no answer,

              You don’t like this as it would make you question your values so seek to change the reality.
              What you want is not what is present so you seek to change that reality by pretending your need changes the reality to include a third option, “it depends” when in reality “it depends falls within the subgroup of “yes” with justifications allowing you to choose that option.

              The end result is you have chosen, “the ends justify the means” .
              moral fluidity, nothing set in stone,

              Maybe lying on a discussion board is justifiable if it nets the best results?

              [OK, lets see. Ignoring moderation request? Check. Insinuating an author is a liar? Check. Banned for a week? Check. See you Saturday week, Grim. TRP]

        • Sabine 18.2.1.2
          14 October 2016 at 1:04 pm

          Women being assaulted is just something Women live with every day. Who cares.

          Women being grabbed by the pussy without consent is something that happens every day. Who cares.

          Women being belittled and put down is happening every day. Who cares.

          Little girls being told to shut up and be nice is good for little girls after all they need to learn their place. Who cares.

          Women being told that motherhood is the biggest thing in their live happens every day, it matters not that they may not want children or even can’t have them. Who cares

          Women being hired for what they can do while Men get hired for potential happens every day.Who cares.

          Women world wide being abused, beaten, verbally put down, discriminated against with such mundane things as food availability, access to hygiene products, safe spaces etc etc …thats normal.

          So frankly of course women should just go back to their place and be seen but not heard. Cause no women shall teach men.
          http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-12.htm
          King James Bible
          But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

          #repealthe19th 🙂 cause clearly women don’t know what men are good for them. see above.

          And yeah, its Clintons fault that the Republican party could only find the carrrot coloured shitstain to represent them in the running for Presnit.

          • Grim 18.2.1.2.1
            14 October 2016 at 1:06 pm

            so was that a yes or no?

            • Sabine 18.2.1.2.1.1
              14 October 2016 at 1:18 pm

              nah it was more a

              can’t be fucked with you and your pompous arse.

              • rhinocrates …
                14 October 2016 at 2:40 pm

                Can’t remember who said it, but here it goes… Never wrestle with a pig: you assume undignified positions, you get covered with mud and in the end you’re left with the suspicion that the pig enjoyed it.

                • Sabine …
                  14 October 2016 at 2:51 pm

                  pigs….hmmm
                  you kill a pig
                  you roast it.
                  crackle……so much crackle and gravy and biscuits.

                  now i want to go buy me some pig.

            • Pasupial 18.2.1.2.1.2
              14 October 2016 at 1:30 pm

              In case you missed it (as there is no confirmation there from you that you saw the moderator’s message and you otherwise seem to be ignoring it), here are TRP’s instructions from comment 22 repeated:

              [Don’t tell commenters and authors what they can and can’t write, grim. You’re being both pompous and precious expecting folk to just limit themselves to yes or no answers and then pontificating at great length yourself. Further more, chiding those that can’t be bothered with your games and assuming a position of moral authority because they won’t follow your rules is foolish and not conducive to intelligent debate.

              Try being less prescriptive and ask open questions that allow commenters to comment. Debates on ethics can be instructive and educational, but less so if you’ve already claimed squatters rights on the moral high ground. TRP]

              In other words, I think that Sabine’s comment was likewise telling you that she does not accept the limitations you have put upon her comments. Well; that, and the fact their is no ethically-pure choice between the two main party’s presidential candidates. There’s always Stein and Johnson (or even one of the other four candidate who don’t even have running mates) if your own ethical purity is more important to you than your county’s wellbeing.

              I’m glad that it’s not me having to choose, but I certainly wouldn’t go for Trump. #Woman are People

              [edit: I see that Sabine has already told you what she thinks of your attempt to constrain her speech. And much more succinctly than myself at that.
              2nd edit: I see that you did reply to TRP at comment 22 before I finished typing my comment. I really do have to work on brevity.]

              • Grim …
                14 October 2016 at 1:56 pm

                I support neither candidate, and if I was American would be looking at third party candidates, as Hillary’s leaked emails mentioned, there is a very real possibility of a third party gaining ground and winning.

                Yet the media focus on Trump vs Hillary and the social media attacks against both have destroyed any possibility of an independent getting the coverage and exposure required, what I have been attempting to do here is make people realise both Trump and Hillary are unfit, discard them and promote a third party, but as you can see from the comments above and below, the left can’t get past the US vs Them 2 party bullshit.

                Hillary destroyed Sanders, Hillary aided Trump, Trump is big business, Hillary is big business, Trump and Clinton families are friends, it is rich vs poor, but the left can’t get past the divisive female vs male, black vs white, conservative vs liberal, and so on, so here we are, the ends justifies the means, vote for someone because the other is even worse.

                Doing bad in the name of good.

                • Pasupial …
                  14 October 2016 at 2:08 pm

                  Grim
                  The entire USA electoral system is deeply flawed and it is questionable whether it deserves the name; democratic. I would have preferred Sanders as Democratic candidate myself, but it’s not all about me.

                  I think that you have to live in the world that actually exists and do what you can achieve within limitations. You seem to have another opinion:

                  Vote Elf/ Unicorn 2016

        • One Two 18.2.1.3
          14 October 2016 at 1:14 pm

          “Thinks its ok”…

          Did the person you refer to say they believed it was ok?

    • Siobhan 18.3
      14 October 2016 at 1:28 pm

      The definition of ‘terrorism’ is itself fairly debatable.

      Noam Chomsky calls the US the ‘world’s leading terrorist state’. So the question is, should politicians in a terrorist state accept money from other terrorism supporting states.

      For them the answer would have to be ‘Yes, why not??”

  19. marty mars 19
    14 October 2016 at 10:45 am

    This is a lovely little explanation of a hongi

  20. rhinocrates 20
    14 October 2016 at 11:40 am

    Trump is guilty of serial sexual assault over decades by his own admission and is accused of rape. Not surprisingly, his popularity among women plummets. So what do his apologists suggest?

    Repeal the 19th Amendment (allowing women to vote) of course!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-tweet-repealthe19th-after-poll-shows-hed-win-if-only-men-voted_us_57fea03ce4b05eff55814a75

    • weka 20.1
      14 October 2016 at 11:43 am

      You couldn’t make this shit up.

      • rhinocrates 20.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 12:25 pm

        On the other hand, there’s this. Witty and effective design:

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/10/donald-trump-pussy-grabs-back-meme-women-twitter

      • Pasupial 20.1.2
        14 October 2016 at 12:46 pm

        This is an important question, that many Repugs don’t seem to be able to answer:

        it now seems inevitable that, with less than a month to go before the United States likely elects its first female president, the top trending topic on Twitter would be #repealthe19th. The hashtag was started by angry supporters of Republican candidate Donald Trump in response to a FiveThirtyEight analysis by Nate Silver showing that Trump would win in a landslide if women didn’t have the right to vote… the past couple of weeks have demonstrated that this election is also a referendum on the question: Are women people?..

        Even the Republicans who are disavowing Trump do so in language that reinforces this notion that women are objects that men own, instead of people in their own right. Most Republican men who released statements condemning Trump invoked their wives and daughters, framing sexual violence as a property crime against male-controlled female bodies, rather than a crime against people with rights.

        http://www.salon.com/2016/10/13/are-women-people/

        • Colonial Viper 20.1.2.1
          14 October 2016 at 1:07 pm

          I think Trump will hold the gender vote the same as Obama/Romney in 2012.

          • te reo putake 20.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2016 at 1:26 pm

            I think we already know how Trump prefers to hold women voters, CV 😉 On the upside, it won’t cost him the election, because he was always going to lose anyway. But it might cost the Republicans in the house and senate and that’s good news indeed.

            • Pasupial 20.1.2.1.1.1
              14 October 2016 at 1:45 pm

              TRP
              The 538 projection was updated this hour to a 62.6% chance of Democrat control of the Senate (which looks set to be a 50/ 50 split with Vicepresident Kaines casting the deciding vote). That’s the highest it’s been this month – back to August levels.

              http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/senate/?ex_cid=2016-forecast

              However, I don’t think there’s much chance of the house changing hands, but it’s been a while since I hunted up data on that. If the Republicans keep themselves chained to Trump as his mouth digs an ever deeper hole for the party, then I suppose anything is possible.

              • te reo putake …
                14 October 2016 at 1:50 pm

                The Dem’s are a long way behind in the house and only thirty or so seats are up for grabs this election cycle, as I recall. However, the majority of those being contested are currently held by the Republicans, so there is potential for big gains.

              • Andre …
                14 October 2016 at 1:55 pm

                Something I’ve just got curious about and haven’t found any data yet is where the polls show a lot of intention to split-ticket vote, how well does that actually correlate to split-ticket votes on the day.

                Overall split-ticket voting has declined a lot over the last few decades. In at least some states, it’s actually quite a pain to split ticket vote. One of the US elections I voted in, I fully intended to split ticket. But once in the booth, to split ticket vote meant turning a lever for each of the thirty-plus offices being voted on. I got partway through, said fuck it, reset the lot,and just turned the one lever for full-slate Democrat.

        • rhinocrates 20.1.2.2
          14 October 2016 at 1:29 pm

          “Rape” in its very old meaning is literally “to steal”.

          framing sexual violence as a property crime against male-controlled female bodies

          Indeed.

          John Oliver’s own take on Repugs’ treating women as property. They’re pretty sickening.

          BTW, the media consensus on the mild term “lewd comments” instead of “confession of serial sexual assault” even though it plays into his hands characterising it as “locker room talk” is almost certainly advised by lawyers as the latter would be used by the defense in any trial as “prejudicial statements” as it denotes the actual breaking of a law – even though Trump has already confessed to it.

        • rhinocrates 20.1.2.3
          14 October 2016 at 3:39 pm

          Some more here too:

          http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/donald-trump-women-accusations-sexual-assault/504089/

          Donald Trump’s Cynical Exploitation of Rape Culture
          The Republican nominee’s attempt to undermine his accusers highlights the callousness of his attacks against Hillary Clinton…

          The more that sexual violence becomes politicized, the more survivors are at risk of getting caught up in the crosshairs of partisan fights. Yet the Trump campaign is not only willing to politicize sexual assault allegations—it has also taken the dramatic step of making them foundational to its case against Hillary Clinton in the final weeks before the election, even as Trump himself faces accusations of his own.

          While his downright creepy defenders simultaneously hype the former and try to brush off the latter as trivial or a conspiracy. Just like Trump.

  21. Muttonbird 21
    14 October 2016 at 11:52 am

    They knocked it down. This kind of vandalism will continue under the banner of private rights in Auckland and soon we will have no history left. Whoever has relaxed the laws around heritage buildings in Auckland needs to be taken out the back of one and shot.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11728857

  22. Grim 22
    14 October 2016 at 12:09 pm

    Upon further reflection, those that see my question above and don’t answer should refrain from posting in public until they have completed some serious soul searching.

    Especially anyone feeling the need to post something to re-enforce their belief that they are morally and ethical superior.

    If you can’t answer a simple yes or no question on ethics this is sad.

    I’m going to drop the aggressive stance for a second here and talk openly and from the heart.

    It dismays me that people adopt beliefs that conflict with basic truths and when faced with simple straightforward questions encounter cognitive dissonance so bad that they have to explain away inconsistencies. The ends do not justify the means, ever!

    Being on the right side does not justify doing bad things.

    [Don’t tell commenters and authors what they can and can’t write, grim. You’re being both pompous and precious expecting folk to just limit themselves to yes or no answers and then pontificating at great length yourself. Further more, chiding those that can’t be bothered with your games and assuming a position of moral authority because they won’t follow your rules is foolish and not conducive to intelligent debate.

    Try being less prescriptive and ask open questions that allow commenters to comment. Debates on ethics can be instructive and educational, but less so if you’ve already claimed squatters rights on the moral high ground. TRP]

    • Grim 22.1
      14 October 2016 at 1:25 pm

      TRP – Rather ironic don’t you think?

      [You might want to spell out why you think it’s ironic. However, if that’s a dig at me, you might want to contemplate how my posts generate hundreds of comments and your contributions go nowhere. Hint: I write challenging opinions and I structure the posts so that there is room for the ideas in them to be argued for and against and for further ideas to be raised. I don’t write ‘agree with me, yes or no?’, because that’s a debating dead end.

      If this site was just reduced to people giving binary answers, it wouldn’t be worth reading. So, no more badgering commenters with your childish insistence that they respond only according to your pompous rules. TRP]

      • Siobhan 22.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 1:31 pm

        So very ironic, it’s what I love about The Standard moderators. That and their algorithms.

    • Chooky 22.2
      14 October 2016 at 1:49 pm

      +100 Grim…Clinton and Obama war crimes committed against Libya have been completely swept under the carpet by the msm which is now going for Trump

      more on Trump…and the mainstream media character assassination

      http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/latest-poll-shows-donald-trump-leading-second-debate/

      this is hilarious

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H7aKGOpSwE

      Trump would be well advised to take this advice from an international journalist .Trump should take Escobar’s advice:

      ‘Is Trump ready to go nuclear?’ by Pepe Escobar ( an independent geopolitical analyst)

      https://www.rt.com/op-edge/362656-trump-clinton-cold-war-nuclear/

      …”It ain’t over till the last (rigged?) Diebold machine sings. November 8 will be all about turnout in a basketful of “deplorable” states.

      And for all the 24/7 scandal time of non-stop groping and kissing and lewd locker room misbehaving, Trump seems to be ready to limp toward the finish line just as he began; an all-out populist/nativist/nationalist fighting open borders (a Clinton mantra, as revealed by the latest WikiLeaks Podesta email dump); “free” trade; neoliberal globalization; and regime change/bomb them into democracy/”humanitarian” imperialism.

      US East Coast business circles discreetly supporting Trump’s platform are encouraging him to focus on only two issues; “to attack Obama and Clinton for blowing up Libya and Syria, creating the flow of refugees that is disrupting the civilized world;” and to attack Hillary as a Wall Street surrogate, stressing “the 2008 debacle was engineered by derivative manipulations where losses were reimbursed to Wall Street, while middle class home owners were not bailed out. These firms are all supporters of Hillary.”

      And then there’s the ultimate, defining issue; the US-Russia Cold War 2.0 that could turn into WWIII. Washington is de facto holding open a nuclear first-strike capacity against Russia, part of the Full Spectrum Dominance doctrine – and Hillary fully supports it. To unmask her as ‘Mother Warmonger’, businessmen supporting Trump have suggested he go – literally – nuclear, issuing a remixed version of the notorious ad that guaranteed the 1964 electoral victory to Lyndon Johnson….

      …Hillary is the anointed – warmongering – representative of these masters; or to quote 2016 Nobel Prize for Literature Bob Dylan, she’s only a pawn in their game, while Trump consciously positions himself as the unlikely outsider. She is actually the Goliath. If he wants to come out as the winning David, his (nuclear) slingshot has got to be a remixed “Daisy”.

    • One Two 22.3
      14 October 2016 at 4:46 pm

      Grim, the levels required to comprehend where you are coming from, while not ‘too deep’ are ‘too confronting’

      The method and logic you’ve employed with that approach are sound indeed

      More of it is what’s required!

    • Olwyn 23.1
      14 October 2016 at 1:37 pm

      This story this seems to follow the standard pattern of universalising particular examples to demonise a group so that no one minds too much when they get a kicking. You can stop a school from using an unacceptable punishment without making headline news of it, and the inclusion of the claim that the time-out area used to be a toilet block seemed added as an “in case you are not yet upset” extra – it says nothing of what the area is like now, but leaves a disturbing impression. This government hates the teachers’ union and is eager to impose a new version of bulk funding. Hence the seeding of bad teacher stories.

  24. Andre 24
    14 October 2016 at 1:10 pm

    Trump’s defense against groping claim: implies she’s not pretty enough for him to have groped her.

    https://thinkprogress.org/trump-says-sexual-assault-accusers-are-too-ugly-for-him-d3be41c0a565#.ikg6cauku

    Every time you think he’s surely hit the bottom, he finds a way to go lower…

    • b waghorn 24.1
      14 October 2016 at 1:18 pm

      it’s like watch a master class in satire ,

      • rhinocrates 24.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 2:04 pm

        As if Stanley Kubrick teamed up with Andy Kaufman and Mel Brooks to write “Springtime for Trump”.

        • Pasupial 24.1.1.1
          14 October 2016 at 2:25 pm

          Males like Trump make “ugliness” attractive to some women:

          Many of my clients were overweight, some seriously so. After learning about their struggles, I would ask, “Can you think of any disadvantage to solving this problem?” (Sounds like a strange question, but many of us have unstated reasons that we don’t give up a problematic habit). Almost always, the heavy woman would think a minute and respond, “What would I do about men?”

          This exact comment was made by hundreds of women I knew personally, over a period of 25 years. This suggests that they were so unwilling to be looked at with desire, that they literally put on a costume of fat to keep the men away. They were willing to put up with discomfort, poor health, and low self-esteem. Anything rather than attention from men.

          http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/13/1582099/-Keeping-Men-Away-with-a-Costume-Made-of-Fat-Looking-at-You-Trump-Enablers

          & from the comments:

          “I have known several beautiful young women who have adopted the most masculine, unbecoming looks specifically to ward off the unwanted attention.”

          “I can endorse the content of this diary from personal experience.”

          “an aura of weird works sort of… hit on a lot less, but the guys that did hit on her were more strange.”

  25. Olwyn 25
    14 October 2016 at 1:12 pm

    Testing to see whether this comment appears when I am logged in. At the moment, when I am not logged in I go into moderation, and the one comment I have made when logged-in (a few days ago) vanished into the ether.

  26. Muttonbird 26
    14 October 2016 at 1:31 pm

    Garner’s thoughts on Helen Kelly with an example of the kind of work she did. Work which most righties weirdly feel the need to express opposition to before offering any condolences to her and her family.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/opinion/opinion-helen-kelly-my-new-zealander-of-the-year-2016101409

    • rhinocrates 26.1
      14 October 2016 at 1:59 pm

      The next phase will be to use her as a stick to beat her successors. “You’re not reasonable like Helen Kelly. I could respect her even though I disagreed with her. You’re just being shrill (sniff).” Rod Donald had ordure tipped over him when he was alive, but the same people who tipped it on him started saying that to his successors before his body was even cold.

      I don’t think I’ll read what Dunne has to say without having a bucket handy.

      • Sabine 26.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 2:57 pm

        Peter effn Dunne,

        may one day he wake up with an itch caused by the fleas of a thousand camels under his armpits.
        may this itch will be with him until the very last breath he takes.

  27. Olwyn 27
    14 October 2016 at 1:53 pm

    Just letting someone know, in case this extends beyond me. If I do not log in, my comments go into moderation. If I do log in my comments vanish into the ether. Since I prefer the moderation to the vanishing, I am not logging in.

    • te reo putake 27.1
      14 October 2016 at 2:00 pm

      Just released this from mod, Olwyn. I don’t know what’s happening, but you aren’t the only one being affected. However, it’s not widespread and I think there are others logged in who aren’t getting bounced to moderation. I see one comment of yours is in the spam list, which a) shouldn’t happen and b) is a tad insulting!

      • Olwyn 27.1.1
        14 October 2016 at 2:08 pm

        Thanks TRP – The two comments made while logged in are of no great note (one is an earlier version of the above) and I think I can cope with the ignominy of falling into the spam bucket. 🙂 I assume this has happened because I do not log in very often, but have done so recently in an unsuccessful attempt at avoiding the moderation problem.

  28. mauī 28
    14 October 2016 at 2:28 pm

    Lucy Lawless’s stay at the Trump hotel. Phone rings:

    Trump: “Hi, Xena, it’s Donald.”

    Xena: “Um… Hi…. is that Donald Trump??”

    Trump: “I loved you as that warrior person, you know such a terriiffic person”

    Xena: “Thanks..”

    Trump: “Yeah, I’ve just recently come back from Chiiina”

    Xena: “Huh?..”

    Trump: “Yeah, I’ve just come back on the market”

    Xena: “Okkk….”

    Trump: “Are you seeing anybooddyy?”

    Xena: “Yes”

    Trump: “You know what, forget about it. I get along with everyyybooddyy”

    Xena: “Huh?..”

    Trump: “And you know what.. laawww and orrdderrr, thats what we need”

    Xena: “Huh??”

    Trump: “You enjoy your stay alright, goodnight”

    Xena: “..uh… hello?”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11729033

    • Pasupial 28.1
      14 October 2016 at 3:03 pm

      Lucy Lawless’s stay at the Trump hotel. Phone rings:

      Trump: “Hi, Ruby, it’s Donald.”

      Ruby: “Um… Hi…. is that Donald Trump??”

      Trump: “I saw you on the lobby camera. I keep a feed the room screen… In my… bedroom… You are so hot”

      Ruby: “Thanks… I guess…”

      Trump: “Maybe I should come over and inspect your room. I have the key and can come in anytime… I own the place”

      Ruby: “Huh?..”

      Trump: ‘Perhaps you heard, I’ve recently come on the market”

      Ruby: “Okkk…. I’m really just looking for a book.”

      Trump: “Are you seeing anybooddyy?”

      Ruby: “Yes. There is a man I’m meeting. Has; a shotgun, chainsaw for his right hand, frequently drenched in blood, and other bodily fluids…”

      Trump: [long pause] “Why did you call me bitch? [shouting] I’ll sue you!” [Phonecall ends]

  29. Once was and others etc 29
    14 October 2016 at 2:44 pm

    and of course, it’s all about you eh? Infused.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  30. Scott 30
    14 October 2016 at 3:36 pm

    The US election has become shambolic. It is like watching a reality TV show. Trump is an absurd caricature of a man. Whether he claims to be left or right, I fail to see how people can back him. I have actually found a reason to have some respect for the Bushs. At least they are willing to say no, not for us thanks.

    But he is only a manifestation of a growing world-wide problem. Discontent gravitating to extremism. I hope we can avoid the same here. The mainstream parties need to wake up a bit.

    • tc 30.1
      14 October 2016 at 7:40 pm

      Trump is about positioning by the real power brokers to ensure their chosen destructor, Hilary, gets the Oval Office.

      Donald’s playing his part in a political reboot of the apprentice, he’ll be looked after when it’s all over.

      Till then enjoy the show.

  31. The PInk Postman 31
    14 October 2016 at 3:59 pm

    Members of the Cambridge Branch NZLP .Wish to send there sincere
    sympathy to the family of Helen Kelly . Rest in Peace Helen you will be sadly missed.

  32. The PInk Postman 32
    14 October 2016 at 4:03 pm

    Members of the Cambridge Branch NZLP wish to send their sincere sympathy to family of Helen Kelly .Rest in n peace Helen you will be sadly missed

  33. Puckish Rogue 33
    14 October 2016 at 4:16 pm

    I’m quite surprised at the amount of vitriol on here today so being the kind, caring and considerate guy that I am I thought I’d post something that might take peoples minds off being mean to each other

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11729077

    No need to thank me, a good deed is its own reward 🙂

  34. Observer Tokoroa 34
    14 October 2016 at 4:58 pm

    .
    . Hi Colonial Viper

    . Look I started to feel unwell this afternoon, because I realised you have been promising us that TRump will win the Presidency.

    That means that you and all the Republican hoards will be Trumpet followers and clones of him by day and by night. No wonder I am sick.

    Will you be leading the swarm of unsavoury wealthy Wasps chanting Trump drivel? I hope you get a Donald medal for all your work CV.

    As for me, I am not coping with my vomit or bowel collapse. I wish to heaven Trump could change his spots and become 0.0000000001% decent. But of course he cant change can he?

    We all know you can’t either.

    PS: will you be building the wall for him? That would be worth another medal, I think.

    PS2: I love the way you hate Obama! You really pull the rug out from under his feet! He wasn’t even born in USA was he CV ? The Ratbag.
    .

  35. Penny Bright 35
    14 October 2016 at 5:29 pm

    My latest petition – for an Independent Commission Against Corruption!

    It “Respectfully requests:

    That the House establish an Independent Commission Against Corruption, tasked with the prevention, education, detection, and prosecution of corruption in New Zealand.”

    Now that NZ has FINALLY ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC), (which supports such a body), and NZ has slipped to now being ‘perceived’ as the 4th ‘least corrupt country in the world’ – according to the Transparency International 2015 ‘Corruption Perception Index’ – IT’S TIME!

    IT’S TIME for New Zealand to to have a genuinely Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC)!

    Actually, in my view, it’s LONG overdue….

    #NZCorruption
    #NZICAC
    #PublicRecordsAct
    #OpenTheBooks

    Penny Bright

    • Red 35.1
      14 October 2016 at 8:33 pm

      Based on votes you garnered not many people support your view, paying your rates may give you a bit more credibility in regard to not robbing other rate payers by using services and assets that they paid for and you choose not to

      • Penny Bright 35.1.1
        15 October 2016 at 10:38 am

        yawn…..

        I’m disputing and refusing to pay Auckland Council rates until the Public Records Act 2005, s.17 is followed, and the following information about spending of public rates monies on private sector consultants and contractors is made available for public scrutiny:

        * The unique contract number.

        * The name of the consultant / contractor.

        * A brief description of the scope of the contract.

        * The contract start /finish dates.

        * The exact dollar value of each and every contract – including those sub-contracted.

        * How the contract was awarded, by direct appointment or public tender.

        By making this information available on the front page of Auckland Council and all Auckland CCO websites, under ‘Procurement – Awarded Contracts’ would be the first step in being able to measure ‘cost-effectiveness’ of such private sector contracting.

        Given that international research has proven private contracting of public services is TWICE as expensive as in-house service provision, and the fact that contracting can breed corruption, (as being currently revealed in the Auckland High Court, with the Auckland Transport unprecedented bribery and corruption case), it amazes me that more ‘social justice’ and political activists aren’t picking up this call for ‘transparency’?

        Unless some are perhaps ‘conflicted’ by themselves being consultants and contractors?

        Just saying ……nicely.

        Kind regards,

        Penny Bright

        ‘Anti-privatisation / anti-corruption Public Watchdog’.

  36. Morrissey 36
    14 October 2016 at 8:44 pm

    Colin Kaepernick Calls Trump And Clinton “Proven
    Liars” Who Were “Trying To Debate Who’s Less Racist”
    by BARRY PETCHESKY, Deadspin, 29 September 2016

    Hillary Clinton won the presidential debate because Donald Trump is a bad man who is bad at most things. But acknowledging that the two-party system dominates American politics doesn’t mean you have to buy into moral relativism. Colin Kaepernick watched the debate and despaired at both choices. ….

    Read more…
    http://deadspin.com/colin-kaepernick-calls-trump-and-clinton-proven-liars-1787223273

  37. weka 37
    14 October 2016 at 11:48 pm

    “On this day, really. Stop the hate PLEASE.”

    [I completely agree. This isn’t the first time recently that Open Mike has descended into ad hominems and vitriol. Yes OM is looser in terms of what is ok, but there are limits and it isn’t a free for all for people to abuse each other. I suggest that everyone rethink where the boundaries are (or reread the Policy).

    Everyone in OM today can take this as a general warning

    and if I see repeat offenders I will start banning. I don’t have time for this shit today, and it’s easier to drop someone in moderation than try and edit and explain.

    Please also consider how your behaviour affects other people, (especially people reading or wanting to comment) – weka]

  38. xanthe 38
    15 October 2016 at 7:10 am

    In my opinion a key driver of misconduct here is the abuse of power by two moderators

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