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Open mike 15/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 15th, 2020 - 195 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

195 comments on “Open mike 15/07/2020 ”

  1. ScottGN 1

    Presumably Collins will have to have some sort of reshuffle? If only because her and Brownlees’ responsibilities will need to change. Does she leave Woodhouse in Health? And risk the Heron Inquiry blowing up in their faces? Will Brownlee want Foreign Affairs back? Does she need to placate any other leadership aspirant, maybe Mitchell, especially if the contest was tight? Does she take Education off Kaye?

    • gsays 1.1

      My thoughts exactly Scott.

      Now the Nastys have this strong leader they desire, will she have the courage to move Woodhouse on?

    • SPC 1.2

      If Woodhouse had kept his leader informed that he was getting emails from Boag about those in quarantine

      Muller would have

      1. said nothing about the leak to media, but simply asked Boag who else she had sent information to.

      3. then contacted Walker to confirm he had done what he did, taken his roles off him and asked the Party to end his candidacy and publicly called on Boag to resign her membership.

      4. there would have been no inquiry. Because Muller would have had it all dealt with.

      Instead Woodhouse effectively undermined the party leader.

      What sort of leadership carelessness would it take to trust him with Health, or any Cabinet position after this?

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

        Spot on. I expect she will deselect him. He may escape with demotion to a less-important position, if he can justify his behaviour to her on a semi-plausible basis. Unlikely. A lapdog presenting as paper tiger, not a good look for the Nats.

      • Treetop 1.2.2

        What you say is clear.

        But

        Collins may have been working with Walker, Woodhouse and Boag to humiliate Muller. Muller did not resign for nothing. I cannot prove what I said and if what I say is the case Muller's job became untenable due to the play of dirty politics from within his own caucas.

        Yeah right no more dirty politics from the new National leader.

        • SPC 1.2.2.1

          unstated

          2. Why nothing from Boag to him to keep Muller informed, he was the last to know anything.

          Woodhouse was team Bridges. Boag supported Kaye part of the Muller ticket.

          While the enemy of your enemy is a stepping stone along the path of dirty politics, for mine Boag made an error of judgment, Woodhouse …

          • Treetop 1.2.2.1.1

            Irrelevant now, which team was Walker on?

            Hopefully Heron will interview Muller and Muller could disclose why he did not disclose Woodhouse telling him earlier on.

        • rod 1.2.2.2

          Judith said she is done with Dirty Politics, and the band played, believe it if you like.

  2. ScottGN 2

    Jane Patterson on Morning Report saying just now that she wouldn’t commit to keeping Woodhouse in Health.

  3. ScottGN 3

    Imagine the industrial scale loathing between Collins and Bridges after she betrayed him against Muller as she maneuvered her way to this point?

  4. Collins not particularly good on radio at no

    Doubling down on "Is there something wrong with being white?"

    And "my husband's a Samoan" as if that absolves her of having a very white front bench

    • Morrissey 4.1

      Having a Samoan husband does not make her statements a whit less problematic. Some particularly nasty racists, including Don Brash, the late Paul Holmes and Cameron "Whaleoil" Slater, have all had non-European wives.

      • Goodgrief 4.1.1

        I also know some non-European people in prominent positions who utter racist comments day after day, but it seems that racism is a one-way street. Time for what I believe are called the "woke" to realise that until they espouse equality they are themselves inherently racist.

        • Morrissey 4.1.1.1

          I also know some non-European people in prominent positions who utter racist comments day after day,

          You're thinking of Winston Peters and Duncan Garner, I take it.

          … but it seems that racism is a one-way street.

          Who suggests that? surprise

          Time for what I believe are called the "woke" to realise that until they espouse equality they are themselves inherently racist.

          Could you elaborate, please? What do you mean by "the woke"?

          • Goodgrief 4.1.1.1.1

            I'm sure that googling WOKE is not beyond your capability Morrissey. As for your assumption re Winston Peters and Duncan Garner, you assume incorrectly.

  5. Ad 5

    Marsden Point is being reduced to a shell and they are going to fire hundreds of people.

    We are now seeing the second massive loss of very high paying heavy industry jobs in a vulnerable region within a month.

    New Zealand's Marsden Point is going to strip away hundreds of jobs, and turn itself from being a full catalytic converter, into something which is just importing bulk fuel straight in to the country.

    Marsden Point was opened in 1964 and significantly expanded under the Think Big policy of the late 1970s.

    Recently it hasn't been able to compete against the massive refineries in Singapore, Korea and Indonesia.

    This means in the worst ever year for job losses in New Zealand since 1929, two of the last heavy-industry high-salary and high-wage businesses are going to leave hundreds of workers on the scrapheap. That's Marsden Point Refinery and Tiwai Point smelter.

    When the big salaries go, towns just don't recover. That's our pattern.

    Now, it was great to see the government yesterday put in $19.5 million into the long-gestating Ngapha Industrial Park. That's on top of the massive new funding for a dam in Kaikohe. Top work Shane Jones.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2007/S00117/government-backs-northland-innovation-and-enterprise-park.htm

    Here's the kind of business they are seeking to attract there.

    https://ngawhapark.nz/

    But on top of a tourism and travel and airport calamity, we are seeing the last of our heavy industry just die. With that goes much of the remaining power of our only private union with any heft – E Tu.

    If NZFirst goes out the back door this election, I sure hope Labour has some plan and some muscular Minister for rebuilding our shattered regions in the next government.

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      Recently it hasn't been able to compete against the massive refineries in Singapore, Korea and Indonesia.

      Those who live by neoliberalism die by the market. However Nat/Labs are extremely thick, so both major parties will campaign on business as usual.

      The world has been changed by the pandemic so economic policy must shift in response. Rational political strategy requires that. Shhh! Don't tell National or Labour! They want to promise more neoliberalism, believing that voters will be traumatised by the prospect of `adapt or die'. Cloud-cuckoo land will win.

      • Ad 5.1.1

        This government has pursued regional economic development more aggressively than any government since Muldoon.

        They are full Keynesians.

        Their projects are smaller than the Think Big ones, but there's hundreds of them, ticketing multiple billions of dollars.

        But sure, go full false equivalence on National and Labour. It's simply not supportable.

      • Ad 5.1.2

        Labour has generated the strongest regional economc development programme since Muldoon. But top marks for the horseshit false equivalence between National and Labour there.

        • Incognito 5.1.2.1

          Thanks Ad, your commentary is more than welcome and you get to the issue in your razor-sharp manner without big words or any other distractions. Keep it up yes

          When I logged in after 10 am there were five comments of yours pending in Pre-Moderation. It helps with the flow if you could do something to avoid this from happening and reoccurring 😉

          • Ad 5.1.2.1.1

            You miderators should stop my default into pre-mod. Can't be hard to fix.

            [lprent: You have a login tagged to that ’email’. It is the one that is used for your posts. Because it is used for posts that requires that you are an author. Authors are required to login.

            This is a standing policy to prevent trolls from hijacking logged in identities and is part of the standard security system.

            I’m certainly not wasting my precious time to code an special one person rule simply because you don’t seem to want to login despite the number of times that i have tried to point out this issue to you over the lest few years. You’ve been squandering a lot of moderator time.

            I’d be more likely to write one that says if there is a conflict with a author login – that the comment goes immediately to trash. That would be simpler for me to do, and would stop you wasting moderator time.

            I’m scheduling now for that to happen this weekend. That means you can just pick another ’email’, get the email on the Advantage login changed, or get us to send you a password update to the email you’re using. ]

            • Incognito 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Us Moderators have no control over that. If we had, I’d done this ages ago, you can take my word for that. I’m trying to help here, if that’s not clear to you; I could leave your comments pending but what good is that? Sort it out with Lprent. Have a nice day, Ad.

              • Morrissey

                Us Moderators have no control over that…

                CORRECTION: We Moderators have no control over that…

                You've just been served by the Grammar Police ©, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc. cool

            • te reo putake 5.1.2.1.1.2

              Ad, the problem, as I understand it, is that you rarely get your email address correct when you post. The system thinks you are a new commenter and holds your comment until it's manually released. Its a pain for all concerned and it's something only you can fix.

            • lprent 5.1.2.1.1.3

              Idiot: Please read my note and respond before the weekend. Otherwise you will find that I will have completely blocked your ability to leave comments using your current handle / email combo.

        • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.2

          Good framing. If it were true they'd tell the electorate, I presume. Not having done that so far suggests either they don't believe it is true – or else they have put the truth aside temporarily to use later as a campaign bombshell.

          If the latter, I will applaud when they drop that bomb! What I'm getting at is the longer Labour continues to foster the business as usual delusion, the harder it will become for swing voters to discern a difference between National and Labour on the policy front. I agree that the election outcome can be secured via positive framing – and it is also true that the timing for introducing that may not yet be nigh.

          • Incognito 5.1.2.2.1

            True or false? The truth? Labour=//=National? So-called ‘if’ and similar conditional statements are often a portal to binary thinking. It takes years of practice to avoid minimise these traps that are inherent to our language and thinking.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_opposition

            • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.2.1.1

              Indeed. Jacinda could tell the media that the truth about whether her govt is maintaining neoliberalism or reinventing socialism is attainable via both/and logic. Which she would then have to explain, of course.

              "Well, back when I was studying politics 1.01, the tutor defined the truth as depending on your point of view. So if I'm doing a speech to a business audience, I explain that the truth is that we support business as usual. If I'm talking to social justice warriors, I explain that the truth is that my government is transformational. Simple."

              • Incognito

                “So if I'm doing a speech to a business audience and if I'm talking to social justice warriors, I say “simple” at lot, because life is simple or it is not, and that’s the truth, as I see it.”

                • Dennis Frank

                  Yeah, to audiences of the simple-minded, she needs to send the right signal. Always pitch to the level they operate at!

                  In life situations that are not simple (such as climate change), best to use complicated. Labour spent too many years avoiding that necessity (and the entire topic) but have moved on, to our eternal relief…

                  • Incognito

                    “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

                    Who/what are “audiences of the simple-minded”? Are you saying she should aim for the lowest denominator, like MSM do, and dumb down and turn off the vast majority of people who hang for non-binary analysis and thinking? Is that what you do here?

                    I’d like to think that JA knows how to do communications but I find her aspirational platitudes wanting. Labour’s slogan doesn’t do it for me but I guess I’m too simple-minded to appreciate its message.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      She's a natural communicator. I was riffing off the handicap imposed on her by her group belief system & the constraints of representative democracy. You've observed how an ideology will warp a group of adherents toward simple-mindedness, eh?

                      Coalition-building requires different messaging for different groups, so the trick then is to strike a balance between authenticity and diplomacy. Diplomats make peace by developing a sense of common ground that competing groups can then share. MMP takes that old political praxis into a more sophisticated cultural context. So a successful political leader has to transcend the partisan stance acquired via adherence to the group belief system.

                      Venturing outside the comfort zone is a challenge, but is the path towards states(wo)manship for a politician. To win (ie get the numbers on board) the leader must talk to the out-group in a language they understand. Works better when the emotional sub-text is inclusive. Then an inclusive framing is easier to articulate.

                      Now to any true believer in any group, such transcendent sophistication looks deeply suspicious! I see her as having the innate ability to do it well – while moving up the learning curve on the job. Some situations get finessed easily, others not. Some she can't finesse for a while, so we wait…

                    • Incognito []

                      That explains it well.

    • RedLogix 5.2

      Closing down Marsden Point will also prove a strategic blunder.

      Right now we are seeing China deepening it's relationship with Iran, with view to replacing the USA as the dominant force within the Middle East. At some point within the next five years a proxy war between Saudi and Iran is highly likely. That of course will disrupt oil supply to this part of the world, and throwing away operational flexibility at this stage is unthinking and dumb.

      • SPC 5.2.1

        How would taking in refined oil, rather than unrefined oil make us more vulnerable?

        • Ad 5.2.1.1

          A local manufacturer only sells to NZ.

          international refiners don't have to supply us.

          Also the heavy products like plastics and tar for roads will be harder to source.

          As the world rapidly decouples out of globalisation, local control of key resource is going to magnify all our security issues.

        • RedLogix 5.2.1.2

          The further down the petro-chem supply chain we are, the fewer options we have in the face of disruption. Which directly translates into strategic vulnerability.

          I know it would be nice not to be importing oil at all, but that's not going to be our reality for several more decades.

        • Ad 5.2.1.3

          Much harder to get critical products such as plastics and tar for roads.

          Also we are such a tiny market. Anyone can say we've got contracts that enable security of supply … but OMG if the petrochemical supply lines start to fracture through further anti-China and anti-Iran trade actions those contracts could get tested.

          All fine talking about the evils of globalisation until the alternative swings around. We are one of the most oil-reliant and oil-vulnerable countries in the entire planet.

          Marsden Point was a critical part of Think Big – which was a response to the oil supply and oil price crisis of the late 1970s. It could easily come around again.

          • Incognito 5.2.1.3.1

            Much harder to get critical products such as plastics and tar for roads.

            QFT

            Most people only think of car fuel and seldom of the myriads of petrochemicals and derived products (derivatives) from oil. Of course, chemicals = bad too.

            For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical

          • Andre 5.2.1.3.2

            Bitumen for roading for sure.

            But is there anyone converting raw feedstocks into plastics in New Zealand? All the plastics material supply chains I've had anything to do with sourced everything from overseas in a state at least one stage beyond oil or gas feedstocks.

            • ianmac 5.2.1.3.2.1

              I know a bloke who set up his factory to crunch waste glass as mixture for roading. Still need tar I guess but a direction to take.

              • Andre

                A simple crushing process is a long way removed from the sophisticated tightly controlled reactors and catalysts needed to turn oils and gases into usable plastics.

                • RedLogix

                  And the people with the lifetime of experience and skills capable of doing it.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Wouldn't it be automated?

                    So, a bunch of chemists and engineers to research, develop and produce the machinery to carry it out. After that, some skilled techs to maintain that machinery.

                    • McFlock

                      So a bit of bung plastic comes out the end.

                      Someone who knows what they're dealing with can pin where the process went wrong, and why. An operator or maintenance technician is on the back foot.

                      Or as a story I read recently put it: a firm's engineer retired after thirty years. A few years later their line was screwing up, and their technicians couldn't fix it or even figure out what the problem was. So they brought back the old tech, who sat in the plant for a day just watching the machines. at the end of the day, he put a chalk "X" on a particular unit, and said "replace that". Line worked fine after that. Billed them $50k. The accounts department saw $50k for a day's work, and demanded an itemised invoice. he supplied "Chalk to make an X: $1. Knowing where to put the X: $49,999". they paid the bill.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      And the problems there are:

                      • Obviously badly designed hardware that hadn't been upgraded in thirty years resulting in specialised knowledge that shouldn't have been necessary
                      • The old geezer failed to pass on that knowledge including helping get the part redesigned as part of his job
                      • The management, being cheapskates, failed to have the part redesigned and replaced in thirty years because we can guarantee that they knew about it being sub par

                      We also can no longer make the engines for the Saturn V first stage. The skills necessary simply do not exist any more. But we can build a better engine. This is the nature of progress – it gets rid of the kinks and foibles that old, inefficient methods used.

                      You tale is a story about the woes of failing to develop further.

                    • Incognito []

                      It’s called tacit knowledge for a reason. Doctors have it in spades, for example.

                      It involves the processing of numerous data into information, interpretation, and conclusion that informs targeted and effective action.

                      A process plant (or manned rocket) can only have so many sensors and data points feeding data into a central processor unit that models its performance (indicators) but not necessarily the process as such.

                      Machines are stupid.

                    • McFlock

                      @DTB: Don't know if the part was 30 years old. Just that the engineer knew the system comprehensively, how it was supposed to all work together, anhd could pick the point in the process where the fail was originating.

                      Funny you were talking about rocket engines. Saturn V had one job, and each item was used once. A better example would be the space shuttle: that was largely automated. Would you like your trip to space refurbished by technicians maintaining parts, or would you like actual rocket scientists participating in the process?

                      Although better powerpoint skills would also have been useful

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Just that the engineer knew the system comprehensively, how it was supposed to all work together, anhd could pick the point in the process where the fail was originating.

                      And he could do that because it had happened before. As I said, he was called back because he failed to do his job properly in the first place by passing on his knowledge to both his replacements and the developers who would be looking to make improvements. Of course, that would probably have something to do with management cutting costs by cutting training as well.

                      Would you like your trip to space refurbished by technicians maintaining parts, or would you like actual rocket scientists participating in the process?

                      The rocket scientists wouldn't go anywhere near maintaining the parts. Same as they didn't go anywhere near building the Saturn V rocket engines. If they had we may still be able to produce them because they would have known all the tweaks the welders used.

                      Once the prototype is made and working then building and maintaining is what technicians do, not the researchers.

                    • McFlock

                      It wasn't the engineer's job to train technicians into being engineers.

                      You can design field-expedient tests for welds, etc. The half-coffee-cup is a classic for concrete.

                      But even then, you need someone more than a "technician" to figure out what's wrong if it fails the test.

                      If welders were materially-altering saturnV with undocumented tweaks, that means the design was flawed.

                      The real reason we can't duplicate a Saturn V is that nobody wants to pay billions of dollars to crochet-code obsolete ROM databanks out of copper wire and magnets.

                      And I'd want rocket scientists looking at why components failed, rather than just replacing them. And knowing when the tile-shedding was at an anomalous level.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It wasn't the engineer's job to train technicians into being engineers.

                      Yes it is and the engineer spent thirty years acting as a technician then. Because that's all he was doing from you said in story – looking after the machinery. Its where he got his knowledge of what was wrong.

                      If welders were materially-altering saturnV with undocumented tweaks, that means the design was flawed.

                      The real reason we can't duplicate a Saturn V is that nobody wants to pay billions of dollars to crochet-code obsolete ROM databanks out of copper wire and magnets.

                      Watch the video. It's about the Saturn V engines. My mistake for thinking that you'd watch the true story while relying on hearsay.

                      And I'd want rocket scientists looking at why components failed, rather than just replacing them.

                      But how are they supposed to do that if the techs don't tell them or the management fails to have the scientists work on it as what happened in your story?

                      Your story isn't about how we need highly skilled techs (which we do) but how the whole system failed because they became reliant upon a single technician.

                    • McFlock

                      lol your video is better titled "rocket scientists didn't want to learn welding".

                      If they threw billions at it like they did in the 1960s, they'd have F1s. The idea that the skills don't exist anywhere on the planet currently, and can't be relearned, is farcical. They just didn't want to spend that much on a scoping project for one option.

                      Sure, the company was overly reliant on one engineer. That's not the engineer's fault. But more specifically, the technicians knew how to change and service parts, but they didn't have the deeper knowledge their jobs required.

                      The idea that when designing is done, only technicians are required to service an automated plant is naive in the extreme.

                      We were originally talking about a full refinery, with cracking and all that other crap going on. If the plant is running at nominal levels but is producing junk, you need materials scientists and chemists to figure out why the process is going bung. It might not even be the machinery at all – maybe a source material is melamined to make it look spec when it isn't, like milk powder. Your automated plant technicians wouldn't detect that, or be able to document exactly how and why it's fucked, would they.

                  • Pat

                    a great story and something that occurs more often than realised at many levels.

                    The questions it demands however include, what if that retired engineer had died or emigrated …..how often is the line made functional but not optimal by lesser staff?….can we function while the required skills are developed?

                    • McFlock

                      Or even "are we replacing this guy with someone of equivalent abilities?"

                      Many militaries are bloody good at those questions – the basics of having clear training paths so that people can step in and the step up isn't usually too high. Waiting until the skills need to be developed is too late to develop the skills.

                      If the engineer had died or emigrated, that line would have been a rusty suck on the company's operations and resources until they spent probably millions to upgrade facilities. Because the problem was a subtle one to diagnose, and people who didn't know the system and production process inside and out were merely maintaining it to someone else's service list.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1.3.2.2

              There are several feedstocks that can produce plastics many of which are plant based. So, we certainly could do it but if we are is another question.

          • Pat 5.2.1.3.3

            bitumen yes…plastics no

    • Ad, your thought on the National Leadership?

      Yes, We will lose some corporate players who are shrinking their bases in reaction to the world scene. This Government has been proactive in redirection training and support. That will continue as it is policy.

      The whole world is being impacted badly with failing business models in the face of covid, and a test of leadership strength and community cohesion.

      We will do better in a cooperative community, this is a war on an invisible strengthening virus with requires working together to overcome the problems it causes.

      If we let the virus back in, we will not be able to direct our resources to problems like Marsden Point and Tiwai. Working with the communities to find a way forward is a strength of this government, and they have the confidence of the community.

      So I would be interested to hear what you think of the "new" Leadership of National, and what they could do better.

      I read your "worries" you express here with interest and see them as flags of possible or real problems.

    • weka 5.4

      "When the big salaries go, towns just don't recover. That's our pattern."

      Maybe we should learn from that then and not create new jobs with the same vulnerabilities.

      • Ad 5.4.1

        No one gets paid a hundred k growing permaculture kale.

        And that's what you need for a house.

        • weka 5.4.1.1

          if we follow that to its logical extension then we need fossil fuels too and we're basically saying that we can't be arsed saving the world because we think we should have a certain standard of living that's considerably above what we need. Whoops, sorry grandkids.

          • Sacha 5.4.1.1.1

            My fragile sense of manhood demands a V8 ute. Everyone else's grandchildren can pay for my refusal to get some basic counselling instead.

          • weka 5.4.1.2.1

            Nice on. Lots of examples around. Ad thinks you have to have $100,000 income to be able to afford to live 😉

    • Just Is 5.5

      Ad, when I lived in Australia, the Govt there decided on importing pre refined fuel from Singapore, several of the refineries were closed, some were at the end of their life from zero investment over a long period anyway. but not long before I left, the Govt suddenly realised the country only had around 7 days supply at any one time, any interuption to shipping deliveries would bring the country to stand still.

      There is a lot value in being self sufficient, even if the cost is slightly higher.

  6. ScottGN 6

    Whoa! She’s doing a kind of mea culpa on Dirty Politics on Morning Report just now. Will that work? Also possibly Shane Reti for Health?

  7. SPC 7

    Judy Collins sings, Send in the Clowns.

    The Joker card.

  8. Adrian 8

    So Collins is going to "crush " Jacinda and the Labour Party, don't anyone remind her that the last time she set out to crush something she and that other Mastermind of the Century Tolley were out-thought by a 17 year old Southland bogan with his cap on back to front who simply swapped the plates from his car onto a stripped wreck and sold the original to a mate.

    Collins is now the proud possessor of a stripped wreck.

  9. Ad 9

    A Collins-Brownlee combined with Act bringing 5% is a potential government.

    But 56 days to gain 20% share? Sorry been there in 2014.

    • bwaghorn 9.1

      Surely the act rise of late is far right nat voters who will come home to the mothership now collins is leader.

      Or has act mobilized the fringe nutters from the gun toting, 5g anti 1080 fb pages.

      • Incognito 9.1.1

        Or has act mobilized the fringe nutters from the gun toting, 5g anti 1080 fb pages.

        The competition is fierce in that corner and they’re not just fighting over crumbs either. A cunning charismatic leader could magnify this and use it to gain considerable political power. It has happened in many other (Western) countries and NZ is not immune to it despite the fact that we think we are. The naivety in/of NZ is breath taking sometimes and we’re way too laid back (i.e. not vigilant enough) to see what could be happening in our own backyards and do something about it in a constructive and pre-emptive way. Race relations could be a trigger point, it often is.

  10. Whispering Kate 10

    Channel One breakfast show had a slew of emails in and all were praising Collins and saying about time National got its act together. What surprised me was most of the emails were from females. My goodness me we have a lot of red neck rwnj's in NZ. It sent a cold shiver down my spine. If this is going to be the types rolling up to the polling booths then our future is not looking good.

    I can see borders relaxed, community transmission occurring and business as usual if National win this next election. The elderly and immunity compromised folk will be anxious. I feel quite depressed really this morning. What a duo they make – a nightmare scenario.

    • francesca 10.1

      Wouldn't mind betting Collins would have a few of her pals lined up to flood the website with approving emails

    • Anne 10.2

      Channel One breakfast show had a slew of emails in and all were praising Collins…

      National – or a group inside it – have always been very good at organising mass responses to events concerning themselves. In the good old days (?) it used to be by talk-back phone calls but now its emails.

    • I Feel Love 10.3

      Well the Nats have set a high standard of expectation re keeping Covid out (through criticism of Labour), and there is overwhelming support of our Covid free status, National/Collins & Act thrive on fear and paranoia. Just got to trust Adern is up to the task, and our fellow NZrs aren't as short sighted as the RW would like us to believe.It's a smart move by National, but they've shown they're accident prone, watch this space.

  11. Rosemary McDonald 11

    Ardern outlines the Future Plan…just in case Collins claims there isn't one.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300057225/live-pm-jacinda-ardern-outlines-next-stage-in-covid19-response

    • I Feel Love 11.1

      We do forget there's a pandemic going on, USA is just beginning to take it seriously, and clearly there health service here still fear it will re emerge here.

  12. anker 12

    Isn't Ardern wonderful the way she almost ignores Collins saying she is not focussed on facing off with her, just the Covid 19 response. way to go Jacinda.

    Anyone else bother by Collins "we'll take the country back" rhetoric. Anyone told them the country doesn't belong to them.

    BTW I know James comes here to troll. I am proposing we all adopt a one word one line response to him and rinse and repeat. Any thoughts my friends on the Standard

    • Incognito 12.1

      BTW I know James comes here to troll. I am proposing we all adopt a one word one line response to him and rinse and repeat. Any thoughts my friends on the Standard

      Deal with his comments in a proper way or ignore them. When he becomes too much of a frustrating troll who disrupts the flow too much, he’ll get a warning from the Moderators. In my perspective, James is not a big issue here on TS.

    • gsays 12.2

      Yep, in regards to these shit stirrers – DNFTT

      Do not feed the troll.

    • mauī 12.3

      Scum..?

      • Incognito 12.3.1

        no

        • mauī 12.3.1.1

          Apologies Incognito.

          • Incognito 12.3.1.1.1

            No reason to apologise, you did nothing wrong. You and I have different opinions on how to call out and/or deal with trolls, which is fine. Insults are not the most constructive way, if there’s one at all 😉

    • James is holding the ladder steady again.

  13. Ad 13

    Hopefully we are all getting ready for regional outbreak quarantines. PM is saying we should.

    Who'da thought the breakdown of globalization would be so deep, so fast, so personal.

    • weka 13.1

      I was surprised we didn't have regional lockdowns in the first wave tbh, but I guess we were on top of things enough that we didn't need to. Seems a fairly straight forward thing to manage in much of NZ (SI at least), but agree we should be preparing.

      Did you get a sense of whether this is because they're planning for community outbreaks due to opening borders a bit at some point? They're saying they want to keep the borders tight, so maybe the regional lockdown plan is just the next step in the long term plan now that they've got space to think about that.

      • Ad 13.1.1

        WHO head says it's going to happen.

        Bloomfield and PM says prepare.

        This is way real.

        • weka 13.1.1.1

          what's going to happen? That we open our borders sufficiently wide to whatever, accept community transmission and thus need to adapt to ongoing regional and local lockdowns?

          • Peter ChCh 13.1.1.1.1

            Community transmission is going to happen. Inevitable, as it only takes one slip up. No border protection system can ever be 100% foolproof or be adhered to 100% of the time.

            Sooner or later we have to open the border door a little, and the longer the pandemic goes on, the wider that opening will need to be to ensure our economic survival.

            Even when a vaccine appears (and it will) or effective antibody therapy is available (which it will, and before the vaccine), there inevitably will be outbreaks as vaccinating the entire population can only ever be a long term strategy, and antibody therapy and vaccines will only target the most at risk groups initially.

            So yes, of course the government is planning for inevitable community outbreaks, and that is good.

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.1

              To a degree, yes, but also no.

              I think it was Chris T who said that we were still covid-free just down to luck. I disagree: we do actually have some effect over the odds.

              It's not like a sensitive explosive, where dropping it once all but guarantees a massive detonation. Some slips are more likely to result in a transmission than others, and quite a few slips would be required for an untracable "community transmission".

              Perfection is the goal, but is not essential. As long as we keep logging our contacts, keep the isolation breaches low and short, and wear masks if we have a cold, then we can keep pushing that inevitable failure further down the road. And when it finally hits, hopefully by then there will be a vaccine or effective treatments.

              But that's life: pushing the inevitable as far off as possible, so hopefully we're ready for it when death finally comes 🙂

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1.2

              Sooner or later we have to open the border door a little, and the longer the pandemic goes on, the wider that opening will need to be to ensure our economic survival.

              We don't need trade to ensure our economic survival but we may need to develop our economy rather than remain dependent upon a few categories.

              • Sacha

                A bold government might even invest heavily in building up our non-infectious industries instead. #gasp

          • Rosemary McDonald 13.1.1.1.2

            That we open our …..borders…

            Not enough of us are engaging with the contact tracing app. (Guilty). Ardern not happy about that. The message I got is that if/when there are further instances of community transmission then Lockdown of varying levels/locations. If the App was being used by more people more widely then more localised lockdowns more likely. Or sign ins, diary keeping etc. I guess we've got a little casual.

            We were told to 'go and see the country', and I know our whanau is one of many who have engaged with this. Time will tell if we were all a little premature. A neighbour's moko, visiting from Auckland, gave me a spontaneous hug yesterday…only later did I question the wisdom of not treating the wee one as a plague carrier.

            I guess we're all prepared for lockdown again?

            • weka 13.1.1.1.2.1

              When they sort out the various privacy issues with the app contact tracing, I'll get behind it. So far the message I've received is 'trust us we know what we are doing'. Yeah, nah.

              I did start a system on my laptop for manually tracing where I have been. Something I would feel ok handing over to the MoH. I live in the rural SI though, so it feels remote cognitively despite my telling myself it's important.

              Unless we get really unlucky, I assume our next wave will be small clusters that don't spread very far because we get on top of them quickly, even with our clunky system.

          • Poission 13.1.1.1.3

            It is scenario modelling,with what policy do we need if there is a breach of cordon,and subsequent community transmission.

            Risk management 101.

            Opening border controls is a self harm problem,both increasing risk to the general population and those politicians who desire to become extinct at the next election cycle.

            • weka 13.1.1.1.3.1

              Makes sense now that things are settling down to signal this future proofing. Still don't have a good sense of what the govt is intending with the border though, lots of opinions on that one.

  14. xanthe 14

    Notice how quickly and easily Jacinda took control of the news cycle

    • Rosemary McDonald 14.1

      Notice how quickly and easily Jacinda took control of the news cycle

      That's what I was meaning up at 11. Very deft. Very certain. Very definite, almost defiant…'All's good, we've got this.'

    • Tiger Mountain 14.2

      Yep, I admit viewing the PM live, when I got an alert on my phone!

      First thought was (as Judith Collins was on RNZ) that Jacinda has got this tactically.

  15. Ad 15

    Jeff Sessions losing the Republican Alabama Senate seat nomination to Trump-backed Tommy Tuberville gives Doug Jones a sniff at survival.

    Though it would be like regaining New Plymouth for Labour: not easy on the rednecks or Labour either.

  16. Ad 16

    Trump just truly fucked Hong Kong.

    He's revoked special trade status.

    Plenty of our exports and imports go through there.

    Some big China access headaches for MFAT coming.

  17. Pat 17

    Gordon Campbell pens an excellent piece on Nationals latest fiasco

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/07/gordon-campbell-on-nationals-great-leap-backwards/

    • Tiger Mountain 17.1

      Gordon is great and always well researched.

      In a better world he would have the level of prominence that the boofhead school of presenters, reporters (no longer journalists in the true sense), and Nat mouths for hire have.

      • Sacha 17.1.1

        If only he would learn to publish three different posts rather than merge topics into a single unwieldy one.

    • ianmac 17.2

      So good! Collins said National would not increase taxes and would reduce social spending. Boy. That is a good plan -isn't it?

      • Peter ChCh 17.2.1

        Actually it is, and I hope that the current government has the same intention. Growing earnings to pay off debt is business 101. That's why business is usually heavily leveraged upon debt.

        Whether that can be achieved of course is another story.

        Chinas rapid growth over the last 30 years was based on the same principle: low taxes, increasing social services, and debt being swallowed up by increasing earnings. It worked well for them.

        • ianmac 17.2.1.1

          Growing earnings to pay off debt is business 101.

          On the face of it that is logical but a bit simplistic issn't it? There are variables and consequences for people by ignoring the effects on single minded pursuits.

        • Sacha 17.2.1.2

          Perfect time to reduce social spending too. Long live St Jude!

      • Pat 17.2.2

        they have learned nothing from either the great depression nor the EU response to the GFC…..and should be the biggest single warning to anyone considering where to place their vote in mere weeks time

  18. Morrissey 18

    Dolores Umbridge might well be J.K. Rowling herself. She's a vicious defamer and false accuser of the very worst kind.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  19. roy cartland 19

    Yikes:

    "Deputy National leader Gerry Brownlee has doubled down on leader Judith Collins' unapologetic stance on diversity, saying it can be hard to balance with competence."

    Competence not possible with diversity? I.e. we, the rich old whites, are simply more competent. That's a "bit off" as they say.

    • I Feel Love 19.1

      He can say that with a straight face? After what they've been through? Muller was the best guy for the job a couple days ago. Let them nail their stripes to the wall, they might be going more rightward than Act.

    • mac1 19.2

      When you have little diversity in your ranks, and similarly a problem with competence in the ranks, then Brownlee is right- they're hard to balance…… with anything. As for diversity in thought- yep, as that can mean anything from belief in flying saucers and one world government to some semblance of reality, I'm sure the National caucus has that in spades.

  20. Byd0nz 20

    Funny to see Mike Hosking money going to help fund the Maori Party with their election campaign. Ya gotta laugh!

  21. mac1 21

    What did I hear on 3 pm news? Woodhouse demoted, Reti on the front bench? Both tolerable moves by Collins.

    • ianmac 21.1

      Yes. But Woodhouse been given other portfolios

      Judith Collins must have taken Kathryn's advice this morning. Dr Rheti now Shadow Health.

      • gsays 21.1.1

        That's one tick in the diversity box.

        Two if you count the new leader too…

    • Sacha 21.2

      Woodhouse picks up regional development and pike river portfolios and keeps assistant finance and deputy leader of the house. No punishment there.

      Smokescreen to hide his other guilty colleagues that hopefully Heron can flush out. Nothing to see here says St Jude.

      • Robert Guyton 21.2.1

        Collins crushes Woodhouse with kid gloves.

        • Sacha 21.2.1.1

          He knows things..

          • Anne 21.2.1.1.1

            There's a story doing the rounds which, if true, does bring more sense to Muller's sudden resignation. No. I'm not saying anything further unless it is confirmed, but it might have a bearing on the kid glove handling of Woodhouse.

            I also note Collins couldn't wait 24 hrs before twisting the knife in Boag's back. Not a defence of Boag but there's been bad blood between Boag and Collins dating back to Dirty Politics at the least.

    • observer 21.3

      I honestly thought (and predicted on here) she would sack him, no messing around.

      Instead she's given Woodhouse a non-demotion, simply shuffling portfolios. Then she sings his praises at the media conference.

      It will be spun as "leadership", just like Muller dealing with Walker. But in both cases it was the bare minimum, it is what you do when you have no option but to act.

      She did offer up some foolish hostages to fortune, though. Confident no other MPs involved (we'll see) and – stupidly – described the fake homeless guy as "a legitimate story".

      • Sacha 21.3.1

        Yep. Move on, nothing to see here..

      • weka 21.3.2

        My take is that nothing she does is done for ethical reasons, it's all about the play.

  22. weka 22

    Got to feel for Puckish Rogue. His dreams come true while he's banned from talking about it. Nerve wracking though, will St Jude perform well or be the next Nat leader to jump in the dumpster fire?

    • weka 22.1

      PR, if you want back in you need to do a grovelling apology to Lynn. Let me know if you want the link.

      • Robert Guyton 22.1.1

        Why would that gum want to be anywhere but stuck to the sole of Judith's shoe?

        • weka 22.1.1.1

          I get to see the comments from banned people that end up in trash. Sometimes it's quite amusing.

          • weka 22.1.1.1.1

            better class of troll and all that.

            I guess now that Collins is head honcho, the election will be boringly fractious.

      • rod 22.1.2

        Bollocks, we don't need the tory troll back.

      • Andre 22.1.3

        If Pucky's too proud to write one, think it might work if I cooked up a grovelling apology on his behalf? It'll be totes worth it.

        • weka 22.1.3.1

          lol, we could have a competition. Not sure Lynn would appreciate it (it was his moderation).

          Give a few days and we'll see if Pucky plucks up the courage.

          • Incognito 22.1.3.1.1

            My guess is that PR won’t remember why he was banned and that he had a choice between apologising and being banned. An apology counts for nothing if the behaviour hasn’t changed. Let me have a go:

            Puckish Rogue, do you want to be paroled?

            😉

  23. greywarshark 23

    edit
    The tendering system for transport is just an attack wreaked on ordinary micro to small business by well-paid denizens of the neolib economic system. The Wellington city example is a shocking example.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/421243/new-school-bus-tendering-a-phenomenal-cock-up-bus-and-coach-association-boss-says
    This about school buses is one of the bad examples of the cruel though supposedly wise system that is meant to create maximum efficiency at the lowest cost but which is wasteful of assets such as in this bus owner compliant with the demands made for school transport, being replaced by another bus which had to be fitted out similarly. Two buses, two entities competing on the West Coast SI. The bus owner-operator who had brought the bus to standard, was doing the job well, lived in the district, was dropped because some big company could undercut her/him for the mainly school run.

    I am sick at the economic system that politicians and mindless Treasury and right-wing economists have got us into. We have opened up our doors to the world inviting the buggers in with open arms, not even trying to make exclusive deals that could have saved something of our nation's enterprise and keep profits here. Why when we are small and the world population is measured in billions?

    If we can find a knight on a white horse or any other colour, to do something let him/her come forward. Even a mock attack on Parliament would be publicity – Don Quixotes we would be no doubt, with Sancho Panzas along. But to continue being walked on only encourages the twisted misters and sisters. Let's have a hollow laugh at the Black Knight Who Never Gives Up; are we stuck with this role? Put Treasury in King Arthur's position, and you can see they aren't 'armless.

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

  24. Fireblade 24

    Team National.

  25. Gabby 25

    Is Slug Cambo claiming Crutcher is competent? She couldn't download the tracking app apparently.

    • Gabby 25.1

      Mind you, it would be a tad embarrassing if Hipkins is put on the spot and can't use it.

      • gsays 25.1.1

        Before there is too much more urging app wise, all government MPs should be able to demonstrate how to use it.

        • Dennis Frank 25.1.1.1

          Aw, come on! Setting the bar so impossibly high would be viewed as bullying. A woke behaviour inspector may come knocking… 😉

  26. Eco Maori 26

    Kia Ora

    Newshub

    That's good more funding for the maturity sector.

    There is a reason aluminum production is not feasible now that would be like buying a lemon.

    Ka kite Ano.

  27. Eco Maori 27

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    Its good to see the captions on I made a mistake yesterday.

    It good to see putea being invested to plant trees and repair the waterways in Rotorua.

    Ka kite Ano.

  28. Eco Maori 28

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    Te Ra is a powerful force we need to use more of the clean energy that is gifted to us from Ra.

    Ka kite Ano.

  29. Eco Maori 29

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    The card tracking device seems like a good tool to track people's with out compromising there data.

    Ka kite Ano.

  30. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    Flooding in Te Tairawhiti.

    I say don't touch the Maori seats as they do give Maori Mana.

    Ka kite Ano.

  31. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora

    Newshub

    That's all part of Global Warming sea level rising the flooding housing by the beach being eroded into the sea.

    That is a great waiata.

    Ka kite Ano.

  32. Eco Maori 33

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    We do need to farm the whenua Wisely.

    Pest need to be controled.

    Ka kite Ano

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