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Open Mike 15/10/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 15th, 2016 - 304 comments
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304 comments on “Open Mike 15/10/2016 ”

  1. Paul 1

    Syrian propaganda

    Part 1
    Channel 4


    Part 2
    The BBC

    Now here’s a rare sight: the BBC allowed a genuine dissenting voice on to its airwaves.

    Dr Marcus Papadopoulos, editor of Politics First, recently talked to the BBC News about the west’s massive disinformation campaign targeting Syria, and misinformation and Britain’s irrational fear-mongering over Russia.

  2. Paul 2

    Meanwhile a different form of propaganda rules NZ’s airways.
    The form is distraction and dumbing down.

    2 weeks ago. A week’s saturation coverage of Kim Kardashian being robbed.

    1 week ago. A week’s saturation coverage of Aaron Smith’s affair in an airport toilet.

    This week. A week’s saturation coverage of the salacious details of the Gable Tostee trial.

    And whilst the Hobbits slept walked to the corporate media’s tune, the Cold War reignited in Syria, a NZ MP was kidnapped on the high seas, details emerged about SERCO’s lies and deceptions about the levels of violence in private prisons, 1 million in Haiti urgently needed humanitarian assistance, the World Health Organisation urged all countries to tax sugary drinks, the U.S. entered the Yemen War directly, the NZ Security and Intelligence Bill is being rammed through Parliament…………………….

    • RedLogix 2.1

      On this I have to agree with you Paul. Our media has descended to mere tattle. Salacious, pernicious clickbait porn dishonestly pretending to be news.

    • James 2.2

      A NZ MP was kidnapped in the high seas mwahahahahahaha. Sorry that’s the funniest thing I will read this weekend. Now who’s been reading biased media.

      • Paul 2.2.1


        Grow up.

        • james

          Grown ups often laugh at the amusing things people say.

          You – well you’re hilarious. Kidnapped – hahahahaha

          • Stuart Munro

            It’s good that you have noticed the grownups laughing James.

            But it would be better if you understood them.

            Kant has a test for stupidity like yours – would you be happy if the vacuous Seymour were taken at gunpoint and restrained illegally?

            All your libertarian pretensions are voided by this childish exercise of prejudice.

            • Red

              It was nothing more than a publicity stunt, the dim with got exactly what she wanted Qouting Kant while making you feel very smug and lefty smart doesn’t change the facts

              • Stuart Munro

                Ah yes – the Right get carte blanche to break international law you think.

                You’ll have no complaints then, should the boot go on the other foot.

                There was a time when the right were educated and principled and thus respected – evidently that time has passed.

            • james

              Seymore wouldn’t have been so stupid.

    • mary_a 2.3

      @ Paul (2) … excellent post, highlighting the dirty, smutty tabloid level NZ’s msm has descended to, diverting real news, to accommodate cesspit slime. A “directed” attempt no doubt, to keep the people ignorant. Insulting to the majority of Kiwis.

      I’ve been around for a long time and I’ve never known our media to be so bad in delivering the news. Seems almost as if anything is better to report, than the facts!

    • BM 2.4

      You can thank ad-blockers for the drop off in on line news quality.

      People not willing to pay, you end up with endless shit like this.

      • b waghorn 2.4.1

        Click counters would have a lot to do with it too , news now is what people want not what they need .

  3. Sanctuary 3

    Hmmmmmmmm, I just watched Donald Trumps unhinged rant from West Palm Beach.

    I think it was better in the original German.

      • Sanctuary 3.1.1

        Watch the video. He went full demagogue/Breitbart conspiracy theorist. Just when you thought Trump couldn’t get worse, he does. He is stupid man with all the symptoms of a massive cocaine habit and he is drunk on his own ego.

        He should have saved 46 minutes and just said “The Jews are to blame.”

        • Paul

          Don’t think I can bear 46 minutes of Trump.
          Is there a particular point in the talk you could highlight?

        • Colonial Viper

          Wall St Journal editorial board member lashes out: “The Press Is Burying Hillary Clinton’s Sins”

          While a few weaker minded members of the Left lose the plot by comparing Trump to Hitler (and then ironically ranting about “conspiracy theories”), the Wall St Journal finally acknowledges the media conspiracy to bury Trump and appoint Clinton:

          If average voters turned on the TV for five minutes this week, chances are they know that Donald Trump made lewd remarks a decade ago and now stands accused of groping women.

          But even if average voters had the TV on 24/7, they still probably haven’t heard the news about Hillary Clinton: That the nation now has proof of pretty much everything she has been accused of.

          It comes from hacked emails dumped by WikiLeaks, documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, and accounts from FBI insiders. The media has almost uniformly ignored the flurry of bombshells, preferring to devote its front pages to the Trump story. So let’s review what amounts to a devastating case against a Clinton presidency.

          (bold mine)


          • Sanctuary

            You should be ashamed of yourself CV. You’ve journeyed politically to a very dark place. Shame on you for supporting this vile bully Trump. Shame on you for enabling hatred and objectification of women. Shame on you for enabling white power racism. Shame on you for enabling the death threats of political extremism. And shame on you – a supposed “leftist” – for turning yourself into a cheerleader for Fascism, the deadly enemy of the left. Your “cure” will kill the patient.

            You are a pale, watered down version of the young socialist Mussolini who it seems in Trump has found your own tawdry D’Annunzio to lead you to your conversion to authoritarianism and fascism.

            • Colonial Viper

              Oh look who is talking “conspiracy theories” now.

              BTW did you read the link through to the Wall St Journal – as pro-establishment a publication as there is – which details what a fuck up Hillary Clinton has been as a corrupt Sec State, and how she has acted in complete defiance of the rule of law and due process?

              • Paul

                Disliking what Trump stands for does not equate to supporting Clinton.
                Disliking what Clinton stands for does not equate to supporting Trump.

                Can we have peace?

                • Colonial Viper

                  With Killary as Commander and Chief there will be no peace 😛

                  Just having a go at Sanctuary for having lost the plot comparing Trump to Hitler.

                  It seems when the chips are down some righteous lefty liberals are more than happy to engage in gutter politics and character assassination just like the right wing.

                  • Paul

                    I am not sure that people on this site pointing out the faults of Trump think Clinton is a great option.
                    I think we’re in trouble with either.
                    Like Russell Brand….

                    • James

                      I’m sorry but even the lefties in the U.K. Don’t listen to brand because he’s such a blithering idiot and a hypocrite to boot. Don’t know why you insist on posting his video all the time.

                      I guess you are a fan and all but really

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I am not sure that people on this site pointing out the faults of Trump think Clinton is a great option.

                      I understand that, and I’d have no problem with it if these same characters spent the same amount of time vociferously attacking Hillary Clinton for selling out the office of the Secretary of State, her neocon warmongering, her acceptance of huge donations from Saudi Arabia and Wall St, and her flagrant disregard for national security.

                      Plus how clearly and seriously ill Hillary is.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Russell Brand is a genuine dissenting voice – unlike the orchestrated ACToids who troll this site. He is somewhat inconsistent, but genuine. The ACT trolls have the opposite flaw – they are consistently insincere.

                      Brand does require a little cherry picking – but it is better to reject ACT propaganda en bloc. Their crocodile tears for Helen Kelly do not redeem them.

                    • Paul

                      As a rwnj, you cannot speak for the left.

                    • Paul

                      Brand uses vocabulary and discusses concepts way above James’s head.

                    • james

                      Ahh the hero of the left – having t-shirts made paying people in bangaleish 25p an hour and then selling them in the UK as “printed in the UK” for 60GBP.

                      What a guy.

                      What to the left in the UK think of him?

                  • Sanctuary

                    I didn’t compare Trump to anyone you fool. I called him a fascist. which is what he is. I compared YOU to that buffoon Mussolini and his journey to the right.

                    This isn’t about Clinton. This about how you go about justifying supporting a racist, women hating fascist. Why? Ever since you got shafted by Labour in Dunedin you’ve been a hater. You hate so hard you’ll love anyone who hates along with you. It has become your organising principle, and you’ve allowed that to warp your perspective to the point you’ll cheer lead for an authoritarian and a fascist if it hurts the establishment that you hate.

                    Hatred is where Trump’s movement draws it’s energy, can’t you see that? hate and fear and exclusion – these are values the left rejects, yet you seem determined to embrace the candidate for US president who thrives on those very values.

                    I am no great fan of Clinton, she represents a failing neoliberal global order whose time has past – she would have been a good president a decade ago, but now she is doing politics out of her time just like the Blairites. But she also stands at least notionally for a lot liberal values and she isn’t a fascist threatening her opponents with lawsuits and jail and violence.

                    Your support for Trump on this site – a left wing, progressive website – is disgraceful. Your excuse making for fascism is disgraceful. Your use of this site a bully pulpit for your own inadequacies is embarassing. Just stop it,or go do it over at Kiwiblog.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I didn’t compare Trump to anyone you fool. I called him a fascist. which is what he is. I compared YOU to that buffoon Mussolini and his journey to the right.

                      Well, I’m afraid now you look like a liar on top of everything else – you did directly compare Trump with Hitler.

                      Or is that not what you meant when you wrote:

                      [Trump] should have saved 46 minutes and just said “The Jews are to blame.”

                      Hatred is where Trump’s movement draws it’s energy, can’t you see that?

                      Actually when I read your words, I feel the strength of the hatred coming from you.

                      Ironic isn’t it, how subtle and insidious the Dark Side is.

                      Your support for Trump on this site – a left wing, progressive website – is disgraceful. Your excuse making for fascism is disgraceful. Your use of this site a bully pulpit for your own inadequacies is embarassing. Just stop it,or go do it over at Kiwiblog.

                      Get over yourself mate, you don’t look good with your sneering haughty nose turned up like the Queen.

                      ver since you got shafted by Labour in Dunedin you’ve been a hater. You hate so hard you’ll love anyone who hates along with you.

                      Speaking of haters, I invite anyone and everyone to read this comment of yours, and identify who is really hating hard here. (Clue – it’s YOU lol)

                      [Be careful with calling people liars, CV. In this case, you are wrong. Anti-semitism was a feature of fascism right across Europe in the first half of the twentieth century. It certainly wasn’t restricted to the Austrian corporal’s followers. The comparison between Trump and Mussolini is apt, particularly given Trump’s appeals to blue collar citizens, which faintly echoes Mussolini’s strategy of infiltrating trade unions and other worker’s organisations.

                      Having said that, I don’t think there’s much to be gained by continually pointing out the bleeding obvious, which is that CV has taken a mighty leap to the right in recent years. I think we probably have to accept that his earlier identification with the left was a youthful folly and his class interests have finally won out. That doesn’t make him a fascist, though clearly he’s flirting with it at present. His ideology nowadays seems more aligned with the libertarians on the selfish end of the right spectrum.

                      That doesn’t make him a bad person and it isn’t an open invitation to personal abuse. Nor is it an excuse to return fire in kind.

                      So, how about we cool it on the personal stuff and concentrate on the politics?

                      TRP ]

                    • RedLogix

                      This about how you go about justifying supporting a racist, women hating fascist.

                      I don’t read CV as ‘supporting’ Trump. I see very few here who are keen on either candidate.

                      What I do see CV doing is analysing Trump’s political agenda and the highly polarised cultural environment he is leveraging. Quite distinct from Trump’s manifest personal failings that CV has never defended.

                      Having closed the door on Sanders, Stein or even Warren … the USA now has a choice of two distinctly bad options, each potentially lousy in their own way. Worst case Trump may well be another Hitler/Mussolini redux, while Clinton plunges the USA into a hot nuclear exchange with Russia/China. Trump is a vulgar, over-entitled alpha-male bombast, while Clinton’s personal smoothness covers over a great deal of ugly political baggage.

                      Because emphatically I do not support either Clinton or Trump, it frees me up to step back and consider the wider picture; the political and cultural deadlock in the USA, the behaviours of the media, the propaganda techniques being used and contemplation of a failed, decadent political system, watching a once great nation go slowly crazy.

                      I would argue that CV’s underlying purpose is not so much to support Trump, but to expose the systemic failings of the liberal left which left the door wide open for such a flawed populist to get so close to the Presidency. Failings which have just as much pertinence to NZ as they do in the USA.

                    • One Two []

                      RL, I believe your assessment is reflective and close to the mark

                      CV is the only one who can truly understand his intentions, and while he has stated them on a number of occasions, there is an element of beligerence in his approach at times which can be interpeted as inconsistent by those with superficial level comprehension skills

                      It is my perspective that frustration is at the core of CV’s positioning. Frustration that so many claiming ‘leftist status’ are seemingly unable to accept the deceit which Clinton represents through a long and ‘distinguished’ career as a liar, war monger and corporate stooge etc

                      The level of hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance has decended into farce with commentators authors and moderators alike regressing to base level abuse towards eachother, exhibiting the very same traits for which they accuse CV of aiding and abetting via his ‘support’ of Trump

                      Shame on all who have partaken in the protracted abuse of eachother while being sucked into the most vulgar electoral campaign one could ever imagine

                      The mental gymnastics of the so called left of this blog site is a disgrace to human capability and critical thinking by any measure

                    • Paul

                      An interesting read for the weekend.

                      Us v Them: the birth of populism
                      It’s not about left or right: populism is a style of politics that pits ‘the people’ against ‘the establishment’. Its rise is a warning sign that the status quo is failing


                    • Manuka AOR

                      Your support for Trump on this site – a left wing, progressive website – is disgraceful. Your excuse making for fascism is disgraceful. Your use of this site a bully pulpit
                      I agree.

                    • weka

                      +1 Sanctuary.

                    • Siobhan

                      Please stop calling The Standard a Left wing site.

                      I include here a quote from Iprent to myself during one of my exclusions. This was private email correspondence, but it is clearly not a private comment, and I am sure he would like me to draw it to your attention so as to stop this endlessly repeated lie…

                      “lprent: You really need to read the about. Does it mention anything about “left-wing”? Do we claim that it is?. Nope. So your claim about the site is simply just a lie, and a repeated one at that.”

                      I note that the ‘about’ section does in fact refer to ‘further(ing) the progressive left principles The Standard was founded on’, but I guess Iprent is saying that the ‘principles’ are Left wing, not the actual site.

                      Once that is understood life on The Standard becomes a lot easier.

                    • weka

                      @Red, “I don’t read CV as ‘supporting’ Trump. I see very few here who are keen on either candidate.”

                      CV is welcome to clarify this, but after 6 months I think it’s obvious that he is promoting Trump. That reads as support to me.

                      e.g. It is entirely possible to discuss why people vote for Trump, including the class, gender and ethnicity aspects of that, without promoting him. It’s also possible to discuss how people have been disenfranchised from life in the US, including but not limited to Trump voters, and why Clinton is not going to change much of that, without promoting Trump. CV chooses to promote Trump because that suits his politics, and I don’t just mean party politics.

                      There’s no point in glossing over that, because it’s central to why so many people here are fucked off with CV’s behaviour. And the incessant hatred.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      TRP – Sanctuary was happy to go personal by calling me a young Mussolini so if he can’t take it, he shouldn’t give it.

                      As for “fascism” simply look at the tight co-ordination between the huge media conglomerates and the Clinton campaign, right down to sharing debate questions early and giving Hillary veto rights over media stories.

                      Now that’s “fascism.”

                      As for the rest of your comments about me being a right winger – *shrug*. Call me whatever names and labels you want.

                    • CV, you don’t know a lot about fascism. And that’s OK. Ignorance is not the issue.

                      You have self identified as not being left wing. Your expressed opinions are clearly right wing; that’s not labelling you, just pointing out the facts. You’re a middle class businessman with a chip on your shoulder and, as I wrote, your class interests have won out. There’s no shame in that, but you shouldn’t get sniffy about people pointing out that your move to the right is disappointing, particularly when so many of your comments are themselves nasty, bigoted and personalised.

                      Its really hard to separate the person from the polemic, but it’s worth trying. I’m just not sure how we can do that effectively.

                    • weka


                      I saw that moderation and I would say it was a combination of catching Lynn on a bad day and the problems that arise when the site gets criticised. You probably could have criticised the commentariat, which is what I think your intent was anyway, but conflating what the commenters do with the site and criticising the site tends to get directed at Lynn or the authors. I haven’t discussed this with Lynn, just my reading of the moderation. I thought the abuse was over the top, but that’s the price we pay for having the site and the large degree of commenting and writing freedom that we have here.

                      Instead, let’s just say that most of the authors and commenters would consider themselves left wing 😉

                      Good to see you back btw 🙂

                    • weka

                      @Red again,

                      for instance see this comment below

                      Colonial Viper 3.2
                      15 October 2016 at 7:33 am (Edit)
                      Trump spoke in West Palm Beach in Florida in the last day? Where was Hillary campaigning yesterday? In her bed?

                      Open Mike 15/10/2016

                      That’s not an analysis of the problems with Clinton. That’s a promotion of Trump by way of smeary shit implying that Clinton is unwell and thus unfit to be president (a line that CV has been running for weeks now). It’s typical of Trump’s own tactics. There is no surprise then that so many people here find CV’s positioning and actions abhorrent.

                      And that’s not even a particularly bad example. This isn’t about someone offering a critique of Trump/Clinton/the US election. It’s about someone bringing the actual culture of Trump into this community and spraying it around deliberately. It’s affecting the site IMO at the level of both the commentariat but also what authors will write. I can’t wait until the election is over, but the problem isn’t the election and I suspect that CV will just move the hate on to his next project.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      CV is welcome to clarify this, but after 6 months I think it’s obvious that he is promoting Trump. That reads as support to me

                      As I have mentioned before, I believe that Trump will definitely be the better President of the United States for NZ for two reasons:

                      1) An end to the TPP and an end to the neoliberal process of globalisation/destruction of national sovereignty.

                      2) Far more likely to work with China and Russia and far less likely to start a shooting war in the Pacific (and other places).

                      Of course however, I recognise that the power of the Oval Office in the face of the US deep state is limited.

                    • Karen

                      +1 Sanctuary

                • TheExtremist

                  “Disliking what Trump stands for does not equate to supporting Clinton.
                  Disliking what Clinton stands for does not equate to supporting Trump.”

                  This has been pointed out to CV numerous times by many people but he either fails to understand this or purposely ignores it

                  • Andre

                    There’s plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise Clinton.

                    Then there’s rabid Hillary-hatred, which seems to completely suppress reasoning and promotes bizarre false equivalences.

                    • weka

                      Nicely put.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well, here’s another legitimate reason to criticise Clinton: she wants to start a dangerous, hard to control super power war.

                      Her advocating the establishment of a “No-Fly Zone” over Syria (in reality, a no-fly zone for Syrian and Russian aircraft, and free reign for the western powers to fly and bomb who they wish) would kill hundreds of Syrian and Russian military personnel as well as destroying a large number of Syrian and Russian military installations and equipment.

                      Read what Haaretz has to say about the Clinton proposal and think about what it means: open warfare between the US and Russia.

                      According to most assessments, Russia has only about 10 dedicated air-superiority fighters in Syria – a mixture of Sukhoi Su-30 and Su-35s. These are Russia’s best fighters, comparable to Western F-15s, Typhoons and Rafales. But they would be outnumbered and without the massive array of support aircraft the American-led coalition would have.

                      They thus would have little chance of resisting for more than a few hours. They would also be limited by the fact that their one base in the region – Khmeimin (the other Syrian air bases are too dilapidated to sustain advanced operations) – has a sole runway that can be disabled by an American airstrike.


                    • “Well, here’s another legitimate reason to criticise Clinton: she wants to start a dangerous, hard to control super power war.”

                      moronic smear that has no basis in fact or evidence or maybe you have some actual quotes and links where she says she ‘wants’ this war.

              • BTW did you read the link through to the Wall St Journal – as pro-establishment a publication as there is…

                Well, yeah, exactly – which is why the Wall St Journal publishing a hatchet job on a Democrat presidential candidate isn’t exactly surprising. Every four years the WSJ has a big list of reasons why it would be terrible for the Democrat candidate to become PotUS, and this year’s no exception.

              • Red

                I saw a some stats last night, trumps indiscretions on nbc cnn etc get up to 6 to 9 minutes, Hillary wiki leaks 30 seconds at max, Nbc zero, likewise similar coverage in newspapers, don’t like trump but this is pure bias on behalf of US MSM

            • Colonial Viper

              Hillary Clinton answers Judicial Watch on her private email server: “does not recall” is the phrase of the day

              To summarize the 23-page response, Hillary “does not recall” the majority of her tenure as Secretary of State and “objects” to everything that she does recall.


              • left for dead

                Sorry, everyone above me (no reply button). just that I think Redlogic is making very good points, as is most of trp’s comments.
                lets stick to facts, or at lest humour on this subject. When do they vote ?.Oh please let be over soon. 👿

                • weka

                  I look forward to the election being over assuming that Clinton wins. If Trump wins it will get worse here. But even if Clinton wins it won’t go away, it will just transfer to something else. What is happening here is about the culture on ts as much as anything.

                  • left for dead

                    weka, yes totally agree, thanks for all your hard work. 😉

                    • Anne

                      A number of former commenters have disappeared from this site and I suspect it is because of the increasing culture of intolerance and abuse. I especially miss people like Pascals Bookie, Ennui, Felix and BLiP whose contributions were always enlightening.

              • Chooky

                Hillary’s financial goings on and the Clinton Foundation in Haiti (decidedly sus and NOT pretty)


                “Max and Stacy discuss the Wikileaks #PodestaEmails documents which shed some light on why a self-described not very charismatic speaker is paid so much for her speeches… to bankers and brokers.”

                …and will Africa become financially independent? ( with the help of gidgets?)…they talk to an African entrepreneur

                ” Max talks to entrepreneur Sinclair Skinner (@SkinnerLiber8ed) of BitMari about the startup and crypto landscape in Africa and about the Clinton Foundation’s role in Haiti.”

              • joe90

                She should have answered fuck you 20 different times.

                btw, the founder of that particular wingnut outfit is a piece of work, too


                • Colonial Viper

                  You may feel it is Ok for a Sec of State to destroy evidence related to a Congressional subpoena (including smashing mobile devices with a hammer) but not every one thinks that way.

          • Chooky

            +100 CV…the corruption runs deep…even FBI agents are unhappy

            ‘FBI revolt reportedly building against Comey letting Hillary’s obvious violations of Espionage Act go unprosecuted’


    • Colonial Viper 3.2

      Trump spoke in West Palm Beach in Florida in the last day? Where was Hillary campaigning yesterday? In her bed?

      • Chooky 3.2.1

        +100 CV…you are a brave person for speaking out and usually making a lot more sense than many (your incisive comments are one of the reasons I come here)

        #WomenWhoVoteTrump unite behind Republican candidate despite lewd comments

        (these are not dumb women , far from it)


        • Colonial Viper

          Cheers Chooky. Trump’s having serious trouble facing the co-ordinated smear campaign from the Clinton establishment machine; they ate up Bernie Sanders (and his “basement dwelling” supporters) and spat him out; let’s see what Trump can do to push back.

          • TheExtremist66

            They aren’t smears you moron, reporting what Trump actually said isn’t a smear. Smearing is what you do when you claim Clinton is seriously ill.

            You notice the difference? Things trump said actually happened.

            • Colonial Viper

              Given the co-ordination around releasing 11 year old tapes just before a presidential debate, quickly followed by a “bimbo explosion” (to borrow Hillary Clinton’s choice phrase) attacking Trump less than one month out from the election, I think that a well oiled smear campaign is obvious and in full flight.

              BTW pretty sure that Hillary is severely unwell and at this stage her entire core team of staffers and secret service detail know about it.

              [As far as I can tell, Hillary Clinton never used that phrase, CV. Cite, if you’ve got it or else it’s just another smear. And now would be a good time to cease the bigotry and smearing around her supposed ill health. It’s irrelevant and ableist. No more, please. TRP]

              • TheExtremist66

                So the woman who have been sexually abused by Trump should just shut up because there is an election in one month?

                BTW – “pretty sure” isn’t evidence of anything

                • Colonial Viper

                  So the woman who have been sexually abused by Trump should just shut up because there is an election in one month?

                  Trump’s been running for President for over a year now. And these allegations have had years and sometimes decades before that to be made. The timing is the smear.

                  • weka

                    I can think of other reasons for the timing that are to do with what happens to women who have been sexually assaulted. If you can’t you’re either ignorant, in which case you should educate yourself if you want to have an informed opinion, or you are running rape apology lines. Either way you are willing, again, to misuse sexual assault to make a political point. That’s fucked up, but consistent with your Trump-promoting politics.

                    • One Two

                      Of course there are “other reasons”…

                      But they are unlikely to be the driving force behind the timing of these accusations

                    • weka

                      How so? Trump’s words regarding sexually assaulting women only came out recently, that’s likely to have made it much easier for women to come forward.

                  • TheExtremist66

                    So victims of sexual assault are only to speak up about it at certain times lest it be considered a smear?

                    Disgusting. Utterly revolting.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So victims of sexual assault are only to speak up about it at certain times lest it be considered a smear?

                      Disgusting. Utterly revolting.

                      Interesting – these women are being used by the Clinton machine to make political hay less than 4 weeks before the presidential election – but somehow that doesn’t bother you in the least.

                    • TheExtremist66

                      You’re getting dangerously close to calling them liars and are already over the line as far as being a rape apologist.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I’ve made zero comment as to the accuracy of their specific allegations. In fact, i am quite sure that Trump has previously and frequently behaved badly towards women (and men).

                      My comment is about the timing of their allegations, and what is being done politically with those allegations in the heavily pro-Clinton media.

                      Not my problem that you cannot tell the difference.

                    • weka

                      @The Extremist 12:40 pm

                      Even worse, most victims can’t speak up, and when they do they are often told by people who should know better that they are lying.

                      If the allegations are true, the timing by definition can’t be a smear. One of the women said she spoke up because she wants to be able to sleep at night when she is 70. Take that in a number of ways, and I’ll include that if the timing has been deliberately planned, then all kudos for those women being willing to put themselves under such intense scrutiny because of the timing in order to have a rapist held to account and in order for the United States to not have a known rapist and rape promoter as president.

                    • weka


                      “these women are being used by the Clinton machine to make political hay less than 4 weeks before the presidential election”

                      Citation needed for that claim.

                    • TheExtremist

                      “My comment is about the timing of their allegations”

                      The timing? You mean directly after Trump denied ever having sexually assaulted woman? Yes, weird that someone would come out and say he is lying straight after telling a lie.

                      Not my problem that you cannot tell the difference.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And if Hillary Clinton wins you will have an alleged multiple sexual assaulter (Bill Clinton) back in the White House for the second time. Think about that weka.

                      Also in the White House, will be the woman (Hillary Clinton) that some of Bill’s victims has called the enabler (seems similar to “rape promoter” to borrow your terminology) of his abuse.

                    • Red

                      Sequencing of all of this is also very revealing, media release the tape just before second debate, moderator in debate then seeks to clarify tape does not reflect the real Donald from Trump, then what do you know claimants to back tapes assertions are rolled out by media in a timely fashion immediately following debate, choreography by media is impressive, likewise far to busy to report wiki leaks. Trump is handling it like the idiot he is but come on Hillary is getting a free ride

                    • TheExtremist

                      “Hillary is getting a free ride”

                      Firstly the Republicans have been throwing shit at Hillary for 20 years and secondly it is to Hillary’s good fortune that Trump sucks all the media attention away from her. If she is getting a free ride it is all thanks to Trump.

                    • weka

                      CV @ 1:16 pm And if Hillary Clinton wins you will have an alleged multiple sexual assaulter (Bill Clinton) back in the White House for the second time. Think about that weka.

                      Also in the White House, will be the woman (Hillary Clinton) that some of Bill’s victims has called the enabler (seems similar to “rape promoter” to borrow your terminology) of his abuse.

                      So says the person running rape apology lines. Mate, you have zero credibility on anything to do with rape culture and what it means.

                      Feel free to put up a clear and succinct evidence that Bill Clinton is a threat to women in the White House, as well has his presence as HRC’s husband making her presidency a threat to women in general. It’s not going to surprise me if BC is a sexual threat to women, but given your history I doubt that you are doing anything here other than your continual pro-Trump spin, and that you are incapable of understand rape culture let alone posting anything coherent on it.

                      And as it happens, thank-fully, it’s women that will decide if Clinton gets to be president. Think about that CV.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Feel free to put up a clear and succinct evidence that Bill Clinton is a threat to women in the White House

                      Then the White House interns to talk to Monica Lewinsky.

                      And as it happens, thank-fully, it’s women that will decide if Clinton gets to be president. Think about that CV.

                      And if they do, then it is women who will have full responsibility for the disastrous follow on consequences of a Clinton presidency. Think about that.

                    • TheExtremist

                      “Then [get] the White House interns to talk to Monica Lewinsky.”

                      Errrr, that was consensual sex, CV. You know, unlike “grabbing her by the p**sy”

                    • weka

                      @CV Then the White House interns to talk to Monica Lewinsky.

                      If that means you think that Monica Lewinsky was sexually assaulted by BC (as a comparison with say Trump), then you’ve just reinforced that you have zero credibility when it comes to rape culture.

                      It could be that you think sexual harassment in the work place as defined legally is the same thing as sexual assault. Which wouldn’t surprise me given you have characterised a sexual predator as ‘behaving badly towards women’ (and then minimised even that by saying he treats men badly too).

                      Given this is your response to my request for evidence I will now assume that when you talk about Bill Clinton as a “multiple sexual assaulter” I will call you a liar and link back to this conversation.

                      “And as it happens, thank-fully, it’s women that will decide if Clinton gets to be president. Think about that CV.

                      And if they do, then it is women who will have full responsibility for the disastrous follow on consequences of a Clinton presidency. Think about that.

                      That’s right CV, it’s about blaming the public who have virtually no good choices in front of them for things largely outside of their control. That’s your politics in a nutshell. Nasty and manipulative.

                    • Anne

                      Even worse, most victims can’t speak up, and when they do they are often told by people who should know better that they are lying.


                      When members of your own family/friends and even employers accuse you of “making up stories” then it is doubly distressing.

                  • Andre

                    Ok CV, if you’re so fucking ignorant that you actually need an education on this shit (and the fact that you loudly spout out of your ass from a position of ignorance makes you a huge part of the fucking problem), here you go.


                    If you’re not actually that ignorant, then it’s even worse, and the only question remaining is how fucking contemptibly low you will go.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I might have missed it, but where does that article explain that less than a month before election day is the right time to come forward with years old or decades old allegations?

                      Because that timing ensures a media environment when there is ZERO CHANCE of any allegation being proven or disproven or of any actual justice being done.

                      But the immediate political fallout has been obvious and costly to the Trump campaign.

                    • TheExtremist

                      “I might have missed it, but where does that article explain that less than a month before election day is the right time to come forward with years old or decades old allegations?”

                      YOU don’t fucking decide when a woman can come forward about a sexual assault. It requires NO explanation, least of all one demanded from a deluded NZer who continually questions the veracity and genuineness of their claims.

                    • weka

                      @CV I might have missed it, but where does that article explain that less than a month before election day is the right time to come forward with years old or decades old allegations?

                      Because that timing ensures a media environment when there is ZERO CHANCE of any allegation being proven or disproven or of any actual justice being done.

                      I seriously doubt that you care very much about justice here. The timing is related to the release of the video of Trump promoting the sexual assault of women, and everything that has happened since then.

                    • McFlock

                      Any allegation dragged only through the media has zero chance of being proven or disproven. That’s what courts are for.

                      The timing is pretty simple: a narcissistic oompah-loompah ran for president, and because he was the loudest bully in the crowd on stage, he accidentally gained the nomination. He then made some odd statements about women, and basic media searches showed up TV footage of him making weirder statements, some approaching disturbing. The deeper people dug, the more disturbing stuff was exposed. When enough shit had come to light, a TV company finally had the balls to broadcast the hot mic incident where Trump boasted about sexually assaulting women (nothing that I have ever heard in a locker room, but whatever). Then that was paired with the footage of him and “bushy” the sleaze acolyte pressuring the female cohost for hugs, on camera, just after that hot mic conversation. Creepy. Then Trump was asked about it, and said it was just talk and he never actually did such a thing. So now we’re in the situation where a whole bunch of women are saying “he did this to me”.

                      As someone put it, this isn’t “he said/she said”. This is “he said he did it, she said he did it / another she said he did it / another she said he did it / another she said he did it / another she said he did it / he now says he didn’t really do it and that it’s all a conspiracy”.

                    • Red

                      The issue is not defending trump. He is a disgrace but so is Hillary, if media did the same job on her as trump there is an arguement trump even accepting the abomination he is, he is a less of an abomination than Hillary if we only have the choice of one or the other, the media is not allowing an even fight here re portraying how bad both these candidates are

                    • I think the second debate where trump defended his position on his disgusting comments was also crucial to the brave decision these women made to come forward. They seemed understandably outraged by trumps lies.

                    • weka

                      +1 marty.

                      I’ve seen bugger all of it, but I’ve heard people saying that Trump was very rapey in the debate in terms of how he used his body in relation to Clinton (ie. stalky). Now that there are concrete things coming out about Trump’s actual behaviour, people will be feeling more confident in trusting their intuition about just how rapey the man actually is, and him stalking Clinton on stage will be very visible. Every move he makes, including his defence, just reinforces this, it’s oozing from him now.

                    • Anne

                      @ CV
                      You know something. Sometimes a person can be so traumatised by their experiences, it can take years before they are able to come forward and tell their stories. And often it is only because something happens to cause them to feel confident enough they will at last be believed. A good NZ example: Louise Nicholls paved the way for rape victims to feel able to finally come forward with their stories.

                      If you can’t understand that then your thinking is very much in disarray.

                      Edit: comment in wrong place – no reply link.

                  • Macro

                    But the tape of his sexual boasting only came to light last week. Furthermore, Trump felt secure in the belief that because of his power and wealth women would not complain of his abuse towards them. That was how it was, but recently, following the successful convictions of such prominent men as Crosby, Harris etc, for similar offending women are now becoming emboldened to confront these predators. Trump has brought this on himself and he should go to jail for it.

                    • Manuka AOR

                      Trump has brought this on himself and he should go to jail for it.

                      This is the case that will put him where he belongs:

                    • Macro

                      Yes I am aware that he is facing court proceedings. This, I’m sure, is only the tip of the ice berg.

                    • Red

                      Accept Marty I suggest these women where lined up well before the second debate, why did they not come out during republican primaries ? To suggest that this is not coordinated is a long bow to draw

                    • Macro

                      Trump’s boasting of his sexual misdemeanours wasn’t public knowledge during the primaries. Furthermore – no investigations were done on him by the Republicans to determine whether anything like this was festering in the background because Trump in his usual belligerent manner forbade it!
                      Trump was relying on the fact that women so abused would remain silent because he was a wealthy and powerful man and they did not feel in a position to expose his abuse of them although they may, and in some cases did, speak privately to people close to them. This is the normal reaction of women so abused. In general they will only find the courage to speak openly about their experience when someone else does.

              • Reality

                CV – just wondering how you are so “knowledgeable” about Hillary Clinton’s medical status. Guess you must be her GP.

                Perhaps if you are “medically qualified” you could ask yourself what makes some people, like yourself, crave constant attention.

                • rhinocrates

                  Probably went to the same medical school as Shearer. That would explain the ability to make diagnoses from partisan anecdotes and/or psychic powers.

                  • weka

                    The Trumpet Medical School teaches people how to diagnose someone just from looking at them on a video. It runs a speciality class in bigotry ethics too.

              • Colonial Viper

                TRP – I made a mistake re: “bimbo explosion”

                the actual term used was “bimbo eruption.”

                The term was not used by Hillary Clinton herself, but by a close aide on the Clinton campaign staff around 1992.


              • Pasupial

                The fact that you are; “pretty sure that Hillary is severely unwell”, means nothing to me. I don’t regard you as being a doctor (though you may style yourself as a health practitioner). Since you have not examined her as a patient, what evidence do you present in support of your oft-repeated assertion?

                Trump is older and; as a male, has a shorter life expectancy (and greater likelihood of developing dementia, if he hasn’t already). I think if we’re worried about any candidate’s health, it should be that of: Sniffles the Clown. With the rancid hatred building up inside him, I would expect his spleen to rapture at any moment*.

                Anyway, if you’re actually interested; Hillary Clinton was speaking at a fundraiser in San Fransisco yesterday (their 13/10 – no actually; 10/13 grr!). The day before that she was at a Rally in Nevada, and another in Colorado. The previous day appearing with Al Gore at a Rally in Florida. I could go on,though I’m pretty sure you were being rhetorical with your question: “Where was Hillary campaigning yesterday? In her bed? (I actually quite like the; “in her bed”, line. That was an artful smear that set up your later speculations about her health)


                * Don’t believe me? Good! Because I presented the same total lack of evidence to support my supposition as CV… As far as I know being a hateful arsehole does not actually damage your spleen. That’s a long discredited idea linked to the medieval concept of the (melencholic?) humours.

                [edit; snap Reality]

                • Colonial Viper

                  Since you have not examined her as a patient, what evidence do you present in support of your oft-repeated assertion?

                  Evidence? I’m just referring to what I see on news clips with her having to be helped up and down steps, having to be dragged into vehicles when her legs don’t work, video of her nodding repetitively over 400 times in half an hour on stage, jerky head and facial reactions when surprised by lights and sound, her aides describing her as frequently confused, etc.

                  • Yeah no evidence just made up, and compliled into videos, by sufferers of clinton-derangment-yndrome.

                    • Pasupial

                      If I went by his; compulsive sniffling and random delusional utterences, I would diagnose Trump as a cocaine addict about to go Rob Ford on us. I am, however, willing to consider the suggestion that this is; a symptom of anxiety from a narcissist who finds himself in a situation where he is not the focus of unquestioning adulation. Or possibly someone with a cold… That’s the point though; I can’t say for certain from this distance. But you; CV, seem so very certain of your prejudices, almost as if you don’t care about the truth of the matter anymore.

                      Here’s what someone who was actually there had to say about Clinton’s head jerking (before the video was edited into a more provactive form and spun by Hannity and his ilk):

                      As an Associated Press reporter who’s spent more than a year covering her candidacy, I was there for her appearance. After she ordered herself a “cold chai,” my colleagues and I shouted some questions, mostly about Clinton’s recent meeting with Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren.

                      Perhaps eager to avoid answering or maybe just taken aback by our volume, Clinton responded with an exaggerated motion, shaking her head vigorously for a few seconds. Video of the moment shows me holding out my recorder in front of her, laughing and stepping back in surprise. After the exchange, she took a few more photos, exited the shop and greeted supporters waiting outside.

                      Two months later, that innocuous exchange has become the fodder for one of some Trump supporters’ most popular conspiracy theories: her failing health. Where I saw evasiveness, they see seizures.

                      Stringing the footage together with shots of Clinton seeming to get help going up stairs, they pressed the case that Clinton has health issues serious enough to disqualify her from the presidency. The hashtag? #HillaryHealth.


                  • Red

                    Likewise watch how unsteady she is when she gets off the stage and how controlled and deliberate she is in her movements

                    [So fucken what? It wouldn’t matter if she spent the next four years in a wheelchair, an iron lung or even as a Futurama style brain in a jar. Her intellectual capacity is what qualifies her to stand for and win the presidency, not the state of her 68 year old body. To be crystal clear, I’m over this particular line of pointless abuse. No more. Only warning. TRP]

                    • McFlock

                      I have concerns that Trump couldn’t remember that the email server had already been explicitly raised in the second debate, and that he got more speaking time than her yet still complained that she had spoken more than him. And that he claimed to have never said/tweeted things recently that he quite clearly had.

                      Now, I suspect that it’s simply because he’s a self-absorbed shit who lies at the slightest convenience, but imagine if HRC had had similar memory lapses – trumpeters would be diagnosing advanced alzheimers.

                      So, let’s see: HRC’s husband is probably a rapist, so is trump.
                      HRC’s foreign policy might be confrontational with other regional and superpowers. Trump wants to throw away the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, expand the drone program to killing innocent relatives of suspected terrorists, thinks the problem with Obama’s Syrian intervention is that they tell people when troops are deployed (very Nixonian), but admires putin so that’s okay.
                      HRC used a personal server. Trump used a personal “charity” to pay a bribesorry “campaign donation”.
                      HRC released her tax returns, pays 30%. Trump didn’t and probably pays 0%.

                      Let me put it this way: if it looked close and I was a voter in the election, I’d do what I had to do to stop trump being president. If HRC was well ahead, I’d probably abstain or write in “Sanders”. If Trump was well ahead I’d emigrate to NZ and lay in about five years of emergency food supplies and seed stores. In a bunker.

                    • TheExtremist66

                      Lol – how controlled and deliberate she is in her movements.
                      You know, kinda like the rest of us who are fairly controlled and deliberate in our movements.

                    • weka

                      You’re a goddam treasure McFlock. A beacon of light in the sandstorm.

                    • McFlock

                      cheers weka 🙂

                    • Red

                      Geez overreaction it’s only and opinion, and on US politics at that. the health of US president has been a factor for many years even as far back as Roosevelt who insisted he was never photographed in his wheel chair or been supported. you may not like it but physical presence, personality looks and even unfortunately gender, sexual orientation all do play a part in politics and electability

          • xanthe

            I also add my support to CV on this , The american people should not be in the position of selecting the “least evil” candidate on the basis of spin. We do not know who is least evil and you are a lone voice of reason here . I am personally shocked and offended by the abuse and personal attacks directed at you particularly those that come from moderators of this site. every subject justifies an open and genuine discussion and open minds. trump vs clinton should get that treatment here as you are properly attempting to do

      • Psycho Milt 3.2.2

        Yeah, but Hillary….

        Yeah, but Hillary…

        Yeah, but Hillary…

        • weka


          “Trump is a serious danger to women, as a man and if he becomes president”

          “ooh, look over there, Clinton attacked a Panda 20 years ago”.

          • Pasupial

            This is attributed to one Alex Schiller, and seems appropriate:

            Bill Clinton cheats on his wife. Impeach him. Trump proudly brags about sexual assault (and has cheated on his wives). Elect him. Hillary oversaw the department of state while 4 people died in an embassy attack. Put her in jail. 2 Republicans were in office while over 200 people died in embassy attacks. No problem. Immigrants don’t pay taxes. Round them up and kick them out. Trump doesn’t pay taxes. He’s a business genius. Hillary’s foundation only spent 87% of their donations helping people. She’s a crook. Trumps foundation paid off his debts, bought sculptures of him, and made political donations to avoid investigations while using less than 5% of funds for charity (and he got shut down by NY State). So savvy… Put him in the white house. Trump made 4 billion dollars in 40 years, when an index fund started at the same time with the same “small loans” he received would be worth $12 billion today… without a trail of bankruptcies, thousands of lawsuits and burned small business owners. He’s a real business whiz. Hillary took a loss of $700k. She’s a criminal. Trump is the first candidate in the modern era not to release his tax returns, and took a billion dollar loss in 1 year. Genius. Hillary takes responsibility for private email servers and apologizes. Not credible. Trump denies saying things (on the record) he actually said (on the record), he’s just telling it like it is.

            Your arguments are thin. Your ignorance of reality is shocking. Your double-standards are offensive, and your willingness to blindly support him and recycle the rhetoric is absurd. Your opinion is not fact. Your memes are not news articles. And your hypocrisy is not a platform.


            • weka

              nice one.

            • marty mars

              + 1 on that awesome post

              • Garibaldi

                Anyone who thinks Hillary should be President is a gullible fool. Anyone who thinks Trump should be President is totally fucked in the head. Vote Stein Americans.
                Does CV think Trump should be President ? All I can tell is that he definitely thinks Hillary shouldn’t, and I quite agree with him.
                I think we get side tracked by the “lesser of two evils” line of thinking . Neither of these candidates are acceptable.

                • Macro

                  I agree with you that Jill Stein is the most suitable candidate, and was initially disappointed that Bernie didn’t take up her offer to him to stand aside and carry that support he had built up into the run for President. However looking back on it I can see why he didn’t, and it is quite clear why he then put his support behind Hillary Clinton.
                  Had both Hillary Clinton and Bernie run he would have split the votes and allowed an easy run for Trump to the White house and Bernie could see that was catastrophic given Trump’s temperament and instability. Whether we like it or not, this election is the choice of the lesser of two evils, and like it or not Hillary Clinton and her policies are far more equitable than anything Trump has to offer because apart from tax cuts to the rich he brings nothing.

                • weka

                  Stein can’t be president this year. A vote for her is a strategy vote for the longer term but it’s a risky one unless one is voting in a state where it’s not going to affect the outcome of Clinton vs Trump. One of those two will be president.

                  • Pasupial

                    Minor party candidates and new party candidates may become eligible for partial public funding of their general election campaigns. (A minor party candidate is the nominee of a party whose candidate received between 5 and 25 percent of the total popular vote in the preceding Presidential election. A new party candidate is the nominee of a party that is neither a major party nor a minor party.) The amount of public funding to which a minor party candidate is entitled is based on the ratio of the party’s popular vote in the preceding Presidential election to the average popular vote of the two major party candidates in that election. A new party candidate receives partial public funding after the election if he/she receives 5 percent or more of the vote. The entitlement is based on the ratio of the new party candidate’s popular vote in the current election to the average popular vote of the two major party candidates in the election.


                    Unfortunately it’s a lot more likely according to the polls that the Libertarians will be able to access this post-election reimbursement of expenses than the Greens. On the plus side, any vote that goes to Johnson isn’t going to Trump.

          • left for dead

            Only just seen this comment weka

            Clinton attacked a Panda 20 years ago”

            Which Clinton ? or which Panda, surely not the one the current PM was getting us.

  4. Paul 4

    The government continues its assault on our public education system.


    John Key sent his son to King’s College, an ‘elite’ private school.
    There is a conflict of interest here.

    John Key is facing a storm of internet protest after the republication of a 2005 article in which he appears to praise private schools for having smaller classes.

    The Prime Minister told the Listener he sent his children to private schools for educational reasons, including smaller classes and better resources.


  5. weka 5

    Lovely and interesting piece by Catherine Delahunty on growing up in a left wing activist family in Wellington alongside Helen Kelly and her family,


    • Macro 5.1

      Thanks for that link weka – omg that takes me back. My dad was also a Liverpudlian, and a Union organiser (President of his Union for 20 odd years) to boot. But we lived in the Hutt Valley and I’m 20 years older than Helen. But dad also knew Pat Kelly, of course, and I grew up during the ’51 strike and the Trades Hall bombing and the consequences of that.
      I wrote to Helen once a few years back when I lent her a book I have discussed here a number of times and she had expressed interest.“What is the Economy for, Anyway?” and received a very nice letter back – which I have kept and cherish. Catherine has taken my daughter Catherine under her wing, so to speak, as has Jeanette (both live close by) and now our Cate is beginning her political life in local government being a Green member on the local Council Community Board.

  6. Wayne 6


    Just one small (picky) point. There is no conflict of interest. If we used your definition, no National govt could ever be in office because;
    1. Some national members of parliament (a minority of them) have sent their children to a private school,
    2. Some are farmers,
    3. Some are lawyers,
    4. Some are public servants,
    And so on and so forth.

    Inevitably people have made life choices that are remotely connected to their decision making. A conflict of interest only arises if there is a direct benefit from the policy that different to anyone else in the same class of people.

    So trade unionist MP’s can vote on trade union legislation. And dairy farmer MP’s can vote on Fonterra legislation.

    Parliament is after all a House of Representatives.

    • Paul 6.1

      If you don’t send your kids to public school, then you don’t care about their quality.
      Your comparison is (deliberately?) flawed.
      Everyone has to have an education.
      Being a farmer, a lawyers and a public servants is a career.

      • Wayne 6.1.1

        My point was more clearly made when I mentioned the voting rights of MP who had been trade unionists or dairy farmers.

        Sending children to a private school (which does not include me) does not prevent a person having a view on public education. In any event all types of compulsory education (public, charter, integrated and private) receive public funding.

        As you note everyone has to have an education, so everyone has some right to the resources of the public purse. If private education did not exist the public system would have to expand by at least 10%, but a much higher cost than the current level of public support for private schools.

        • Paul

          How to Destroy a Public-School System
          In Philadelphia, education reformers got everything they wanted. Look where the city’s schools are now.


          The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education


          4 ways privatization is ruining our education system

        • RedBaronCV

          So Wayne – “everyone has some rights to the public purse”
          but surely the right wing wants user pays – not a public system- so why isn’t it leading by example and demanding to personally fund the entire private education system with the fees?
          Clearly they can afford it and therefore would not ever be any charge on a publicly funded system which they would not enter. So the argument is illogical.

          But it is good of you to confirm that they expect the general taxpayer to fund a lot for them while they spend parent money on elitism.

          • Invisible Axe

            Socialism is usually a dirty word for the righties, except when it comes to ‘private education’ or roading or bank bailouts etc…

            • RedBaronCV

              Ah yes – when it is used for a tight wing top up – totally justified – I hesitated to use the term Hypocrite.

              Still Wayne may be confirming that the RW are too failed to be able to pay for private schooling personally – poor life choices perhaps – if they need a state top up?

              • Gangnam Style

                Nah fairs fair Dr Wayne the free marketeer works for a private company, oh wait a minute…

                • RedBaronCV

                  more poor life choices??

                  • Gangnam Style

                    Yeah he is one of lifes ‘winners’, the ‘losers’ get the leftovers.

                    (I do appreciate you commenting here Wayne & know it’s not fair to pick on you as I am anonymous whereas most of us know who you are, all credit to you for showing us how the right mostly think).

              • Wayne


                Given that primary, intermediate and secondary schooling is compulsory for everyone, and with a large part of the curriculum being set by the state, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that everyone gets a share of the public spending.

                Those people who choose private education pick up about 75% personally, the 33% public subsidy relates only to teacher costs, not property costs.

                Generally parents sending their kids to private schools are paying a reasonable amount of tax, so it seems fair to me that for schooling they get some back.

                For integrated schools (originally the Catholic schools, but now a much wider group) the parents pay around 10%, mostly for property and for the special characteristics. The state pays 90%. Seems reasonable to me.

                I appreciate that for some on the Left private schooling is anathema and that there should be no state subsidy. So far no Labour govt has ever suggested the subsidy should end. Presumably too politically risky, since given the diversity of private schools.

                In my view the subsidy is justified essentially because compulsory schooling is prescribed by the state (really all of us as a community, since virtually no-one thinks schooling should be voluntary). On that basis everyone should get some state support.

                • RedBaronCV

                  There are plenty of things in this country that are compulsory Wayne, as we have a lot of laws.

                  So why is education being seen as the special case , where the taxpayer subsidizes all comers, not just those that have financial need?

                  Your system enables the wealthy taxpayer to use their money to top up their children’s life opportunities (no matter how unable!) at the expense of others in the community who may be
                  – far more able than those in private education
                  – and have far more community values across the board than the limited interest shown in “community” by the RW where it seems to be confined to a “have your cake and eat it model”.

                  BTW my comments relate to schools that charge large fees – not other integrated – which is a distraction in terms of this post. Stop trying to divert there.

                  Still based on this I assume you are a closet UBI supporter…

                  • Garibaldi

                    Why should we appreciate one of the prime trough feeders (apparently we are carrying about 80,000 of them in this country) pontificating on this site? They are never going to see the error of their ways and should be pilloried ,not exalted.

                • Herodotus

                  “Generally parents sending their kids to private schools are paying a reasonable amount of tax, so it seems fair to me that for schooling they get some back.”- So Wayne how would you reconcile those of us who also are paying a reasonable amount of tax ” and do not send our children to private schools ?
                  Should also those students who require after school tuition also be covered by this “subsidy”, or those children with dyslexia, dyspraxia etc that require private diagnosis and support well beyond what most schools are able to provide? As many of these families are also paying a reasonable amount of tax, and what of those families that do not pay a “reasonable” amount of tax, should they be excluded ?
                  As I cannot read any comments that you have made that the funding for education would be increased, the govt would have to take from other areas of the education spend to fund this proposal ?

  7. Paul 7

    Rowarth isn’t a scientist.
    She is owned by the corporates.

    Massey University freshwater ecologist Professor Russell Death said Rowarth’s assertions were wrong.
    “In some respects it’s kind of crazy because I’m not sure many people would consider the Waikato River as one of the cleanest in the world let alone the cleanest,” Death said.
    Death’s area of expertise is in the health of freshwater bugs. He said the measure of bugs in the upper Waikato reaches – known as the macroinvertebrate community index – falls short of accepted standards for clean water.
    “There are large sections of the Waikato and many of its tributaries which have invertebrate communities that indicate it is not in a healthy condition.”
    The vast majority of the Waikato River system is in “poor ecological health”, he said, though there are some streams in the headwaters that could be in pristine condition.
    “It’s very strange kind of comments for her to make,” he said.
    Veterinarian and agro-ecologist Dr Alison Dewes completed her Masters studies at Waikato University in profitable farming in the Upper Waikato catchment while maintaining a low environmental impact and this showed it is possible, she said.
    She said Rowarth is drawing a long bow.
    “She’s almost twisting the science,” Dewes said.
    “When people are saying stuff like that they do need to be called out.”


    And she has form.


  8. Morrissey 8

    British Labour’s right wing is as dire as anything the Conservatives have
    come up with: vide the smooth Blairite Kim Hill interviewed this morning

    RNZ National, Saturday 15 October 2016

    Kim Hill’s first interview this morning sounded interesting. He was billed like this:

    Julian Milford is a London barrister who represented the British Labour Party in the legal challenge to the system of voting for their party leadership. He is also a pianist, and a founding member of the London Conchord Ensemble, a supergroup of British classical musicians who are currently touring New Zealand…


    Sadly, as I suspected, he turned out to be a plummy-voiced prick.

    Appalled, I sent the host of the program the following email….

    Julian Milford’s appalling cynicism

    Dear Kim,

    “I wouldn’t be so cynical,” giggled Julian Milford early in your interview. In fact, everything this superficially charming, beguiling toff said was cynical, and loaded with contempt for the democratic process which has seen Jeremy Corbyn elected as the leader of what is now Europe’s largest social democratic party.

    Julian Milford represents the discredited Blairite rump of the Labour Party. He would have us believe that the unpleasantness in the Labour Party over the last two years was the result of a small group of talented, principled career politicians like Hillary Benn, Yvette Cooper and Tristram Hunt bravely fighting back against the stupid, unwashed, uneducated majority of party members who support such absurd measures as free education, maintaining not dismantling the National Health Service, and banning nuclear weapons.

    Yours in disgust at the depthless cynicism of the English establishment,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Siobhan 8.1

      My first thoughts too. I nearly turned off the radio…again.
      But then he is a lawyer, dealing in purely legal issues. Which is pretty much what he kept to in the interview.
      It’s the same as lawyers who represent people who are accused of the vilest of crimes. You can’t hold it against the lawyer. Well, you can, but the guy works in Chambers, he gets handed cases, and unless he has a conflict of interest he’s probably just going to ‘do his job’.
      Everyone deserves their day in court with decent representation, be they murderers or third way neoliberals.

      If anyone needs to be cut from National Radios interview list it is that abomination, the so-called UK correspondent Dame Ann Leslie, on Nine to Noon.

      Or having The Hill columnist Brent Budowsky commenting on Wikileaks…WHEN HE WAS THE SUBJECT OF THE WIKILEAK.

      And while we’re at it, cleaning up our own back yard, and have them stop using the Judith Collins loving Mike Williams as ‘The Voice from the Left’.

      So many many letters to write…

  9. Jenny 10

    To all the pro-bombing authors at The Standard


    [As I recall, Jenny, your last ban was for abusing authors. And the one before that and the one before that. So’s this one. See you next Saturday. TRP]

    • Barfly 10.1

      so a stirring anti war video is author abuse? REALLY?

      • te reo putake 10.1.1

        It is when it’s explicitly linked to the authors at the Standard. If Jenny wants to comment here, she’s going have to stop sniping at the authors. Simple, really.

        btw, it’s a great song, even though Dylan blatantly ripped the tune off from the old folk song Nottamun Town.

  10. joe90 11

    One of Trump’s thugs attacks, chokes and punches a protester, then goes back into the crowd doing the high five thing with other audience members as the crowd chants “USA! USA.

    Trump was interrupted by a protester in Greensboro and this happened: pic.twitter.com/Hzc2Z82gNu— Holly Bailey (@hollybdc) October 14, 2016


    Also, armed Trump thugs try their hand at intimidation.


    • Manuka AOR 11.1

      More violence ahead:
      Donald Trump supporters have talked about violence if the Republican candidate loses to Hillary Clinton next month. And now, some of them are starting to put their money where their mouths are.

      A pro-Donald Trump protester has attracted attention for standing alone outside a Virginia Democratic campaign office with his gun.

      On Thursday, Daniel Parks stood outside a Palmyra campaign office for congressional candidate Jane Dittmar. Witnesses described him as staring directly into the office all day and turning sideways to expose his gun he was legally carrying. He was eventually joined by another protester, who was also armed.

      The story is part of a larger trend of implied violence being used by Trump supporters. http://www.salon.com/2016/10/14/armed-donald-trump-supporters-caught-menacing-democratic-campaign-office/

    • joe90 11.2

      All class.

      #Buffalo man puts noose on front lawn, in front of his Donald Trump sign; says it's not racist https://t.co/crjoSIMhO4 pic.twitter.com/rZQJoxHiD7— Aaron Besecker (@AaronBesecker) October 14, 2016


    • joe90 11.3

      He’s got the best supporters.

      Mindy McGillivray of Palm Springs said she is planning to leave the United States because she fears for her family’s safety since she publicly accused Donald Trump earlier this week of groping her in 2003.

      “We feel the backlash of the Trump supporters. It scares us. It intimidates us. We are in fear of our lives,’’ she said in an interview Friday with The Palm Beach Post.

      McGillivray, 36, has been staying in a hotel in the three days since she told her story to The Palm Beach Post, one of at least four women across the United States who have accused Trump of inappropriately touching them. Trump has denied the accusations, calling them total fabrications.

      But she said got a scare Thursday night when she returned to the Palm Springs house she shares with her daughter and stepdad to pick up clothes.

      “I look out the window and there are cars just driving around the house and looking, slowing down right at the house,’’ she said.

      “I don’t live in a gated community. This is dangerous. There could be people out there who want to hurt us.’’


    • joe90 11.4

      The best supporters.

      Police say they’ve arrested a 20-year-old man for spray-painting anti-Muslim messages and the words “Donald Trump” on a Muslim community center in Bayonne, New Jersey, early Friday morning.

      Jonathon Huffey faces charges of criminal mischief, bias intimidation and criminal trespass, according to Lt. James Donovan of the Bayonne Police Department.

      Huffey, a Bayonne resident, is accused of spray-painting a slew of hateful messages ― including “Fuck Muslims,” “Fuck ISIS,” “Fuck Allah” and “Fuck Arabs,” as well as “Donald Trump,” the name of the Republican presidential nominee ― on the exterior wall of the Muslim Community Miraj Center, located in the basement of a Catholic elementary school.


      • Colonial Viper 11.4.1

        Whereas Obama during his term has merely droned innocent Muslims in 7 countries to death.

        Plus he’s just started sending cruise missiles in to hit Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East.

        And hellfire missiles and Tomahawks pack a way bigger punch than spray paint.

        • Chooky

          +100 CV…war crimes!…crimes aginst humanity!…where was Michelle’s outrage on this?…such hypocrisy!

  11. rhinocrates 12


    Rape culture. Why don’t women come forward when raped or assaulted? Because of this. This isn’t just about Trump and his supporters in the present campaign, it’s about power and intimidation and it happens all the time (eg. the NZRFU and BM’s comments here).

    Many Trump supporters responded by smearing the accusers on Twitter. These women are “opportunistic media whores,” one wrote, “who cry sexual assault for notoriety and a paycheck.” “It’s amazing how these women waited 30 years and several WikiLeaks releases to come forward, all on same day,” tweeted another.

    These sexist responses were all organized by a hashtag: #NextFakeTrumpVictim.


    Another article on victim-blaming or derailing:

    In his speech Thursday responding to the accusations, Trump did everything that survivors of sexual assault say they’re afraid of if they make their accusations public.

    And to save the bother, cutting and pasting Psycho Milt from 3.2.2 (hope you don’t mind) for an example of exactly the kind of derailing that 4chan plans.

    Yeah, but Hillary….

    Yeah, but Hillary…

    Yeah, but Hillary…

  12. Manuka AOR 13

    After he canceled a rally at a Chicago university Friday night due to safety concerns, Donald Trump told CNN’s Don Lemon “I certainly don’t incite violence.”

    Trump, however, has a history of calling for violent acts against those who protest at his events that goes back until at least August of last year.

    A list of those calls is here: http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#mNie4gRK9iqI

  13. Incognito 14

    “It’s about democracy,” she [Gina Miller] said. “To my mind, the most dangerous precedent we’d be setting is that a government can overrule Parliament and not consult it when we are making decisions about people’s rights. And that to me is a very, very dangerous place.”

    … as to whether power ultimately rests in the executive or Parliament.


    Although the article in the NZH is about a legal challenge to Brexit and although constitutionally, legally, and politically NZ is different from the UK the fundamental question is the same.

    Although this is a legal case, which will be decided (or not …) on legal arguments, it implicitly addresses questions about separation of powers and the fuzzy-blurry lines that divide them.

    What may not come into the legal arguments – it most likely won’t – is the issue that remains unresolved after thousands of years and that is and always has been acute & relevant to democracy:

    Does democratic authority equal ultimate (political) power?

    The way I phrased this is deliberately poorly and it sounds more like a seed-question for a class-wide debate at a secondary school. The reason is that I believe that democratic authority is rapidly disappearing and virtually becoming extinct.

    However, if I had to answer my own question with a simple Yes or No, I’d definitely choose No.

  14. Pasupial 15

    [Dunedin Hospital surgeon Mike] Hunter, who has had leadership roles in the hospital and played a prominent role in the 2010 neurosurgery campaign, wants to have a say on the new hospital.

    So far, that has not been easy.

    Doctors had just four days’ notice of the first meeting of an advisory group early last week, making it impossible for many of them to rearrange patient clinics.
    The unsettling and unworkable haste, after years of delay and dilapidation, frustrates the hospital veteran, who is an intensive care specialist and general surgeon.

    “For something that we have been banging on that we’ve needed for a decade or more.
    “We’re told that it won’t be done until the early 2020s, yet suddenly there’s a massive rush to have a meeting.
    “I don’t know quite what to make of it yet.
    “We’ve said ‘you can’t conduct it like this if you want us to engage’.”

    In a response to the ODT, the Southern District Health Board cited “ambitious timeframes” for giving doctors only four days’ notice of the meeting.
    The project finally jolted into life early this year and involves senior Wellington officials alongside DHB staff and consultants


    What I make of it is that; the lucrative contract for the rebuild is being farmed out to one of this government’s sponsers. Before the return of pesky democracy to the SDHB in 2019 (whatever limited form it will then be allowed). Maybe the minister is even starting to get worried that he won’t be in government after next year and wants to be sure of a future consultancy role of his own.

    • McFlock 15.1

      I don’t think they plan on returning democracy to SDHB.

      I suspect that they want to throw some details about the new hospital into the election camp[aign, like they did with queenstown last time. Pretend that the last eight years hasn’t been a war on the regions, sort of thing.

  15. swordfish 16

    Gender Breakdown from a recent (Oct 7-8) YouGov Poll of US Presidential race.
    (Sole aim: to inform future discussion here)

    (Favourable or UnFavourable view)
    (Strongly Favourable / Strongly UnFavourable = subsets of Fav and UnFav)


    ……………….Fav……….UnFav……….(Strongly Fav)……..(Strongly UnFav)


    ……………….Fav……….UnFav……….(Strongly Fav)……..(Strongly UnFav)

    And … What the Hell … Let’s throw in Bernie Sanders’ Current Favourability ratings as well


    ……………….Fav……….UnFav……….(Strongly Fav)……..(Strongly UnFav)


    Vote Intention
    (4-Way Contest)



    Presidential Preference
    (asked of everyone including those intending to vote for a 3rd Party Candidate)



    How do you feel about the Presidential Candidates
    (asked of everyone including those intending to vote for a 3rd Party Candidate)


    (From most positive (Enthusiastic) to most negative (Upset))







    Voter Motivation
    (Main reason for voting Intention)

    (1) I’m mostly voting FOR Clinton
    (2) I’m mostly voting AGAINST Clinton
    (3) I’m mostly voting FOR Trump
    (4) I’m mostly voting AGAINST Trump



    NEVER Vote for Candidate
    I would NEVER even consider Voting for this Candidate
    ……………..Never Vote Clinton…….Never Vote Trump


    • Manuka AOR 16.1

      11th October, from a series of polls, with maps, stats and more:
      That’s the difference between a close election — as you’ll remember, those national polls in late 2012 showed the race neck-and-neck3 — and one that’s starting to look like a blowout.

      • swordfish 16.1.1

        Cheers. The YouGov Gender Split, then, is very close to the October average. (see bottom two rows of first table in your linked article)

        Interesting analysis from fivethirtyeight, but doesn’t provide the level of detail that the YouGov breakdowns (above) do.

        • Karen

          Swordfish, you may be interested in this Florida poll as there is some interesting breakdown, including that 40% of Trump supporters actually believe Hillary Clinton is a demon.


          In case you don’t know why this question was in the poll, – radio host and Trump supporter Alex Jones claimed last week that both Clinton and Obama are demons and the proof is that you can smell the sulphur if you get close to them. No, I’m not joking.

        • Macro

          An Interesting opinion piece here gives further background as to the now growing dissatisfaction amongst women and more enlightened men as to what is happening in this election. Enough is enough: the 2016 election is now a referendum on male entitlement

          • RedLogix

            So what do you imagine Donald Trump, Bill Clinton and … say Aaron Smith … all share in common then?

            • Macro

              A misguided sense of entitlement as did Crosby, Harris, The Chiefs, et al..
              Women are beginning to say “Enough is enough”.
              Trump’s behaviour towards Hillary Clinton on that stage in the second debate was appalling. He glowered, snarled, invaded her personal space, accused and bullied. He did this because she threatens his perceived entitlement, and he was reacting in the only way he knows how. Just imaging him as POTUS. I shudder to think.

          • One Two

            ‘More enlightened men’

            Please do tell what an ‘enlightened man’ is in your opinion

            The levels here continue to plumb the depths….

            • Macro

              There are some men who realise that women have been oppressed for centuries and that the continued oppression must stop. I suggest you read the opinion piece for a fuller explanation.

              • One Two

                I read the article before I responded

                It is anything but enlightened or illuminating

                • Macro

                  I guess therefore, you must remain the unenlightened one. 🙁

                  • One Two

                    Macro, you nor anyone else will find enlightenment inside such articles of a publication such as the guardian

                    At best it could put you on a path of inward reflection and personal expansion, which after a period of time you could cross paths with ‘enlightened’ texts which lead you to some original thinking of your own

                    If you reach such a point you will realise how little it was you understood at this particular stage of your evolution

                    Our journeys are unique and wonderful, but wherever we are on the path we will realise sometime thereafter how little it was we understood. ….that is the beauty of personal evolution

                    • RedLogix

                      Precisely One Two.

                      Now I think I’m off for a while. My own journey has some challenges up ahead, and no doubt when I look back it will be with the usual chagrin at how little I understood when I set out. 🙂

                    • weka

                      “Macro, you nor anyone else will find enlightenment inside such articles of a publication such as the guardian”

                      If by that you mean that there is nothing useful in the Guardian, ever, then that is easily the stupidest comment that’s been made all day. For all the Guardian’s faults and biases (which are there) it does still publish a range of articles and there are things there that inform, educate and inspire people to think.

                      It’s about critical thinking, and you just failed massively. Assert superiority all you like, but this is a political debate forum and if you want to be taken seriously you need to make an actual argument not just say “you’re stupid”.

                    • One Two []

                      Weka your comments have regressed in recent times, and relatively speaking you’re ‘losing the plot’ with in some of the responses…this one included

                      Perhaps instead of following your own agenda bias (because its failing you), mindfully read my comment once again then see how you feel about the assertion made of failed critical thinking

                      Or, I can save you time of arriving at the wrong conclusion once again …. you interpreted my entire comment incorrectly and put words ‘in my mouth’…

                      Did you not see my response to you a few days back regarding hypocrisy?

                      I also said to you I am not in a fight and today I’m telling you i couldn’t care less about ‘being taken seriously’

                      The level of debate here is low and getting lower

                    • weka

                      If you had any genuine intention of communicating meaningfully you would have clarified what you meant not given me a lecture and expected me to mind read. More than happy to put you in the (pompous, patronising git) troll basket for as long as you do this shit.

                    • One Two []

                      If you had any genuine intention of communicating meaningfully you would not have made the assertion and accusation in your first response…but you chose to take that approach, Weka

                      I did not see any request for clarification, which makes it odd that you then state I’m expecting you to ‘mind read’

                      That’s not what was in my second response to you…fyi

                      Redlogix picked up the intent behind my original comment, which was straight forward enough

                      The final sentence (including insults) reads like you’re threatening to put me into moderation (troll basket)

                      Was that the intention of your final sentence?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      @One Two

                      You’re not on a journey. You’re stuck going nowhere because you believe you already have all the answers.

                      This is another trait of the RWNJ.

                    • One Two []

                      Nobody has all the answers…

                      And it’s impossible for you to be in my head, or on any journey other than your own. Pretending you know what I believe is high level folly

                      Once you progress past ‘we can’t afford the rich’, and left, center, right paradigm you may experience some progress on your journey..

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Pretending you know what I believe is high level folly

                      I don’t need to pretend – you spelt it out quite clearly.

                      Once you progress past ‘we can’t afford the rich’, and left, center, right

                      I’ve been beyond the right/left idea for quite some time. It’s how I know that we cannot afford the rich.

                      It’s called reality.

                    • One Two []

                      Go ahead then Draco

                      Tell me about what I believe

                    • Macro

                      Over the past year my youngest daughter has been working in High Schools facilitating a programme financed by ACC entitled “Mates and Dates”. This is a programme which attempts to address at an early stage in a young persons development their perception of what is and what is not, acceptable and appropriate dating behaviour. But more than that – what is, and what is not, consent. There is a large number of young men/ men who think that unconsented sexual touching and behaviour is perfectly ok. (Trump is the embodiment of this attitude.) My daughter comes across young girls daily who declare an unconsentual act upon them. These are not made up stories, they are real and need to be dealt with. This is the reason ACC have this programme in the first place – to try and prevent the harm that is being done out there. After all it eventually comes back to ACC in the form of extended counselling costs, and prevention is better than cure any day.
                      Young women/ women in general, will not come forward following a assault of this nature unless it is totally obvious – blaming themselves, or to taken aback, or without someone to turn to with whom to confide and the matter lies festering.
                      There are some men who now are realising that this is the case. These are the men I refer to as enlightened.

          • Ad

            The gender issues will merely mobilizing Clinton’s base. Useful but that’s it.

            Apart from a few states like Utah it won’t make a material difference to Republican voter loyalty. Maybe it will affect soft Republican turnout a shade or two, maybe.

            But the net outcome for the United States will be a Democrat President, a Republican-controlled Congress, and a likely Republican-controlled Senate.

            The same balance of power as now.

            • weka

              ‘That’s it’ if you think the only thing going on here is this election. It’s not. Whoever wins this one, there are issues here that transcend that and are cause for serious concern. The gender issues are another tipping point.

              Trump voters won’t disappear next month, and the effect that Trump has had will still be there. Listen to Michelle Obama’s speech. She gets to the politicking later, but most of the first half is not about Clinton at all, it’s about rape culture.

              And it’s not just rape culture. We’re taking more notice of this now because it’s women being affected, but black and muslim Americans went through this earlier in the piece.

              None of that will disappear.

            • Macro

              Ad – if you were to look at the gender balance in the polls swordfish is quoting it is obvious that there is a growing bias of women supporting Hillary Clinton – particularly after the Tape revelations – and the article I referred to merely expounds on that, and the growing determination of some women not to be downtrodden by some men.

              • Ad

                The path to 538 electoral votes isn’t done with a free-floating gendered vote, floating up on a vast foam of feminist protest and MSM self-congratulation.

                It’s done by states. States alone.

                The female stats above against Clinton were remarkably strong.

                Also, the Senate and Congress support for Democrats is not following Clinton in the least.

                Clinton has just got cosmically lucky as a feminist, against a misogynist. She deserves her luck, but don’t count it as anything else. Hard to see that working with any other Republican potential nominee.

                If you think this election and all its revelations is going to change US patriarchy, go have a hot shower. Use lots of soap.

                The balance of US internal power is due to remain the same.
                And actually that’s not a bad thing.

                • Macro

                  I’m not sure where you get your information from – but that is not what I am reading. There has been a strong swing against Trump in the past week with the latest polls suggesting upwards of 10 to 13 points difference. And yes I’m well aware of the peculiarities of the US election system. However in some electoral maps, if only women voted, almost every state would vote democrat. Furthermore there is a slim majority for the GOP in the Senate which is why Ryan, and many others, are dropping Trump like a hot brick – least they too be tainted. It is not a foregone conclusion that the GOP will retain their majority in the Senate. They have a much larger majority in the House but there is still a chance that with the swing against the GOP, that too could go to the democrats.
                  I can’t see any justification for saying that it is better for the status quo. Obama has had a fearful uphill battle to enact any form of progressive legislation under the current regime (e.g. Health reforms), and they have held up any decisive action on Climate Change for decades!

                  • Ad

                    Forget about stupid what-ifs like “what if only women voted?”

                    The Presidential contest is over.

                    The only US contest to watch now is the Senate. Obama has done just fine against Republican Congress and Senate for 8 years. Too much alignment in the US is really dangerous.

                    The Senate contests are where the budgets, the reforms, and the Supreme Court appointments are now. Ryan’ speech today was accurate.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The Presidential contest is over.

                      That’s the way it appears for the moment with only three and a half weeks to go. But for the sake of the world, I still hope that Killary and her neocon set do not get in.

                    • Macro

                      “Obama has done just fine against Republican Congress and Senate for 8 years. Too much alignment in the US is really dangerous.”

                      I take it you are not concerned for your grandchildren then?

                      Are you aware that the world has waited decades for the USA to make up its mind wrt to taking any decisive action against GHG emissions? Every Climate Summit since Kyoto practically we have waited for the US to get off the fence and lead a concerted action to tackle GHG emissions. And very time the US comes – makes big sounding statements and promises NOTHING – why because it knows it cannot legislate anything because of its denialists in the Senate. Who are the people responsible? around 60 Republicans in the Senate. The world can’t move because they deny AGW. The largest emitter by far, and they say “NO”.

                      So I don’t give a shit about what is good or not for the US. I care about the Earth and its going downhill fast.

                    • Poission

                      The MP agreement for limitation for HFC was signed, unfortunately China and the biggest delayer India get a free lunch,to protect industries that are less then a decade old.


                    • Colonial Viper

                      unfortunately China and the biggest delayer India get a free lunch,to protect industries that are less then a decade old.

                      A free lunch? Really?

                      The highly developed and wealthy West could have chosen to provide China and India with the funds required to offset economic damage to those HFC using industries and accelerate the transition to alternatives.

                      Instead of, you know, sitting back like pakeha lords on the huge mountain of carbon emissions they have put up over the last 200 years to get to where they are today.

    • Chooky 16.2

      @ swordfish…I always appreciate your stats input

      re Polls …which ones do you believe?….this Report has Trump still in the lead

      ‘White House Watch’


      “Friday, October 14, 2016

      At the close of a week that began with him trailing by seven points, Donald Trump still holds a slight lead over Hillary Clinton in today’s White House Watch survey despite a flurry of news reports alleging a history of sexual harassment on his part.

      The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey of Likely U.S. Voters shows Trump with 43% support to Clinton’s 41%. That’s unchanged from yesterday. Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson picks up six percent (6%) of vote, and Green Party nominee Jill Stein has two percent (2%) backing. Four percent (4%) like another candidate, and five percent (5%) are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click here.)….”

    • weka 16.3

      Swordfish, given the relatively low voter turnout in the US, is that poll, and others, taking into account the non-vote? Eg are those numbers including people who will not vote? Does that matter or is it assumed that the non-vote covers the political spectrum?

      • swordfish 16.3.1

        In terms of Voting Intention, the YouGov poll:

        (1) includes only Registered Voters
        (2) provides respondents with the option “I probably won’t vote”

        Unfortunately, just 1% of both men and women chose that option (which massively understates the non-vote).

        On the other hand, YouGov also provide a “Not Sure” option (in terms of who they’re intending to vote for)- which 6% of men and 10% of women went for. Generally, those who choose the Don’t Know option in Polls (regardless of Country) disproportionately figure among Non-Voters at the subsequent Election. But those figures still, of course, greatly understate the huge Stay-at-Home numbers in US Elections.

        There is an argument that Hillary’s key demographics tend to be the ones most likely to stay home on Election Day, that the polls are failing to pick up Shy Trump voters (due to the perceived social stigma of overt Trump support) and hence underestimating his true support, Then again, there’s also an argument that Clinton will have a superior Get Out The Vote campaign on the ground and that an unusually large number of Republicans will stay home.

        YouGov do weight for variable turnout between various demographics in their UK Polls, so it’s quite possible they also do so in their US Presidential Polls. In which case, the final figures would be more robust. It’s just that – in contrast to their UK ones – they don’t spell their methodology out in any useful detail. So, it’s difficult to know for sure.

        But the fact that they include a “I probably won’t vote” vote option in the Voting Intention table itself – suggests to me that they haven’t, in fact, aggressively filtered for the known non-voting history of various demographics (in the way that they do in the UK).

  16. Chooky 17

    ‘Voters feel Clinton fatigue after years of scandals – Former Clinton Secret Service Agent’


    “It’s less than a month to go till the American presidential vote and the Trump vs. Hillary race is heating up. The campaign seems to be focused more on dirty laundry than the issues that matter. With fresh scandals erupting every day, some Republicans are abandoning their nominee and joining Hillary’s camp – fearing that Trump is not fit for the presidency.

    But is the real Hillary Clinton radically different from the cool and composed persona she’s projecting in public? We ask a man who spent eight years guarding the Clinton family in the White House – former Secret Service agent, author of ‘Crisis of Character’ – Gary Byrne.”

  17. Paul 18

    Adam Curtis’s new film, HyperNormalisation.

    We live in a time of great uncertainty and confusion. Events keep happening that seem inexplicable and out of control. Donald Trump, Brexit, the War in Syria, the endless migrant crisis, random bomb attacks. And those who are supposed to be in power are paralysed – they have no idea what to do.

    This film is the epic story of how we got to this strange place. It explains not only why these chaotic events are happening – but also why we, and our politicians, cannot understand them.

    It shows that what has happened is that all of us in the West – not just the politicians and the journalists and the experts, but we ourselves – have retreated into a simplified, and often completely fake version of the world. But because it is all around us we accept it as normal.

    The film is a giant narrative spanning forty years, with an extraordinary cast of characters. They include the Assad dynasty, Donald Trump, Henry Kissinger, Patti Smith, the early performance artists in New York, President Putin, intelligent machines, Japanese gangsters, suicide bombers – and the extraordinary untold story of the rise, fall, rise again, and finally the assassination of Colonel Gaddafi.

    All these stories are woven together to show how today’s fake and hollow world was created. Part of it was done by those in power – politicians, financiers and technological utopians. Rather than face up to the real complexities of the world, they retreated. And instead constructed a simpler version of the world in order to hang onto power

    But it wasn’t just those in power. This strange world was built by all of us. We all went along with it because the simplicity was reassuring. And that included the left and the radicals who thought they were attacking the system. The film shows how they too retreated into this make-believe world – which is why their opposition today has no effect, and nothing ever changes.

    But there is another world outside. And the film shows dramatically how it is beginning to pierce through into our simplified bubble. Forces that politicians tried to forget and bury forty years ago – that were then left to fester and mutate – but which are now turning on us with a vengeful fury.

    • marty mars 18.1

      Looking forward to it but also is dark by the looks

      The bits Brand talks about on that – Muammar Gaddafi – I wondered where all the memes came from – oh what a progressive fellow and so forth – MSM. Conspiracy theorists have used this too as an example of bad regime change – everyone is reading second hand news – EVERYONE.

  18. Sacha 19

    Govt’s wee immigration cuts based on data from *4 years* ago: http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/immigration-cuts-based-on-old-numbers-2016101512

  19. rhinocrates 20

    Surprising no-one, the anti-semitism is out in the open now.



    Throughout the speech, Trump used harsh language that evoked old and ugly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about international bankers who supposedly infiltrate national governments and control the global agenda. Citing recent Clinton campaign emails published by WikiLeaks, Trump told the crowd that “Clinton meets in secret with international banks in order to plot the destruction of US sovereignty.” Echoing the rhetoric of Alex Jones and other conspiracy theorists, Trump repeatedly referred to “globalists” as the true enemy and Clinton as their handmaiden.

    Practically ticking every box on the checklist of Nazi and Neo-Nazi codewords for Jews. It may not be obvious to naive (or dishonest) New Zealanders, but it’s a dogwhistle as loud as a bullhorn to anyone in America who is Jewish or a Nazi. A New Yorker especially couldn’t plead ignorance.

    Of course he’ll say “One of my wives is Jewish”, but we all know what he thinks of women, and how he treated her in their marriage.

    I wonder if his supporters will wear tinfoil jackboots?

    • Chooky 20.1

      Trumps son- in- law is Jewish…so i don’t think Trump is anti Semitic …what you say seems to be not the truth

      ‘Who Is Jared Kushner, Donald Trump’s Jewish Son-In-Law?’



      (but this should not preclude Trump criticising Israel or bankers)

      • rhinocrates 20.1.1

        John Oliver said months ago when Trump started attacking African Americans, whether you are actually racist or pretending to be racist makes no difference – you are deliberately summoning up the force of racism.

        It used to be said – and maybe still is – that every Country Club in America had a Jew on the board whose job was to make sure that no other Jew was ever able to join. American racism and anti semitism has long made use of token figures to justify their broader abuses.

        One can certainly criticise Netanyahu or capitalism, but the language Trump has chosen is that which he knows will resonate with the American White Supremacist and Neo Nazi movement.

      • Sabine 20.1.2

        Yes, the myth of The Ehrenarier.


        Honorary Aryan (German: Ehrenarier) is a term from Nazi Germany. It was a status granted by the Nazi Bureau of Race Research, or by other Nazi members, to certain individuals and groups of people—who were not generally considered to be biologically part of the Aryan race—which certified them as being honorarily part of the Aryan race. The prevalent explanation as to why the status of “honorary Aryan” was bestowed by the Nazis upon other non-Nordic—or even less exclusively, non-Indo-Iranian/European—peoples, is that the services of those peoples were deemed valuable to the German economy or war effort,[1] or simply for other purely political reasons.

        To Jews[edit]
        During the Third Reich, the status of Honorary Aryan was occasionally conferred to certain Jews out of pragmatic considerations. For instance, Jews who had been decorated in World War I by providing military service for the German Empire and who had maintained their support thereafter were unofficially commemorated as “honorary Aryans” and subjected to comparatively less discrimination than most other Jews were.[2]

        The term was also sometimes ascribed to certain Jews for personal reasons. For instance, when Emil Maurice, an early member of the Nazi Party and founder of the SS, was later discovered to have had Jewish ancestors by Heinrich Himmler, he was almost expelled (along with other members of his family) from the SS (in accordance with the new racial purity rules for SS officers that Himmler himself had mandated after becoming Reichsführer-SS),[citation needed] but was pardoned after being informally declared an “honorary Aryan” by Adolf Hitler—a close associate, longtime friend, and fellow prisoner (in Landsberg) of his—who came to Maurice’s defense, and compelled Himmler to make an exception for Maurice and his brothers, via a secret letter written on August 31, 1935.

      • joe90 20.1.3

        what you say seems to be not the truth

        Are chooks dog whistle deaf?.

        Following Thursday’s speech, white nationalists praised the content of the speech and responded to criticism of Trump’s language with blatant anti-Semitism:

        The Right Stuff: “Trump Manages To Channel Goebbels,” Is “88% Woke.” The white nationalist “alt-right” site The Right Stuff praised Trump’s speech, with writer Lawrence Murray arguing, “somehow Trump manages to channel Goebbels and ‘Detroit Republicanism’ all at the same time.” Murray added that the speech was “almost unprecedented in its militancy and vitriol for the luegenpresse and the brahmins.” (“Luegenpresse” is a term Nazis used to denigrate the media — “lying press” — that has recently been revived by racists.) He also described Trump’s speech as “88% woke” (88 is used by white nationalists as an abbreviation of “Heil Hitler”), adding, “Can you picture the shvitzing that must be going on in some circles right now? I can, and it’s glorious.” [The Right Stuff, 10/13/16]

        Racist Radio Host David Duke Praises Trump’s “Incredible Speech,” Rails Against “Jewish Supremacists” And “Jewish Radicals” Who Are Waging A “Vicious Attack Against Trump.” Duke, a former leader of the Klu Klux Klan and current Republican Louisiana Senate candidate, used his radio show to call Trump’s speech “maybe the strongest, most all out speech concerning the war that is being waged against us and the war that is being waged by the oligarchs who control the international banks and the globalists” before claiming “Jewish supremacists” are using their control of the media and other institutions to attack Trump:


        Neo-Nazi Website Infostormer Says The Speech Was A “Full-Strike On The Jews,” Fantasizes About “Rounding Up The Kikes Onto The Deportation Trains.” In a post at neo-Nazi website Infostormer, writer Marcus Cicero claimed he was skeptical that Trump would ever “launch a full-strike on the Jews,” but the candidate “has exceeded our expectations once again.” Cicero mocked concerns about the anti-Semitism in the speech from “the vast majority of Christ-Killers with internet influence” and said he had not seen such “rabid rage … since the glory days of 1930’s Germany.” He also fantasized about “rounding up the Kikes onto the deportation trains and planes.” From Infostormer:


        Neo Nazi Site Daily Stormer: “Trump Affirmed” That The Media Is “The Lying Jewish Mouthpiece Of International Finance.” The neo-Nazi site Daily Stormer praised Trump’s speech in a October 14 post headlined “Jews Go Into Red Alert at Trump’s Historic Speech Denouncing International Finance, Globalism and the Media”:


  20. Good article on you know who

    “In a powerful 2003 article in the journal American Psychologist, Roy Eidelson and Judy Eidelson foreshadowed Trump’s popularity. Drawing on a close reading of both history and social science literature, they identified five beliefs that — if successfully inculcated in people by a leader — motivate people to initiate group conflict. Trump’s campaign rhetoric deftly mobilizes all five.

    Confidence in one’s superiority: Trump constantly broadcasts a message that he and his followers are superior to other Americans, whereas those who oppose him are “stupid” and deserve to be punched in the face. His own followers’ violent acts are excused as emanating from “tremendous love and passion for the country.”

    Claims of unjust treatment: Trump is obsessed with the concept of fairness, but only when it goes his way. Given his presumed superiority, it naturally follows that the only way he and his supporters could fail is if injustice occurs.

    Fears of vulnerability: Accordingly, Trump has overtly stated that he believes the presidential election will be rigged. His supporters believe him. In one recent poll, only 16 percent of North Carolina Trump supporters agreed that if Clinton wins it would be because she got more votes.

    Distrust of the other: Trump and his supporters routinely claim that the media, government, educational institutions, and other established entities are overtly undermining Trump, his supporters, and their values. To many Trump supporters, merely being published or broadcast by a major news outlet is evidence that a fact is not credible, given the certainty they have that media professionals are conspiring against Trump.

    A sense of helplessness: When Trump allows that it’s possible that he might lose the election because of fraud, conspiracy, or disloyalty, he taps into his followers’ sense of helplessness. No matter how superior he and his followers truly are, no matter how unjustly they are treated, there is little that they can do in the face of a nation-wide plot against him. Accordingly, many of Trump’s most ardent supporters will see the impending rejection of their candidate not as a corrective experience to lead them to reconsider their beliefs, but as further evidence that they are helpless in the face of a larger, untrustworthy outgroup. …”


    • Draco T Bastard 21.1

      And when you put all of those together what you’ll end up with is a very nasty and brutish civil war once things don’t go the way the Trump-alikes want them to.

      • Colonial Viper 21.1.2

        this “civil war” has been waged against middle class and working class America for decades already, by the corporate allied DC elite of the country.

        • marty mars

          nah, you don’t know what war is if you think that

          • Colonial Viper

            what would you know about it, mate? Just another chicken hawk lefty liberal as far as I can see.

            Check out the ruins of Detroit or Flint Michigan and tell me that’s not equivalent to the destruction of shelling: but this time by financial and economic shelling.

            • marty mars

              lol up there with your usual debate style, insults and content snakey – that is zip, nothing, devoid of value…

              typical of the wealthy elite middle class like you to think that an economic war is the same as having arms and legs detached at speed – you have no cred you zero

              • Colonial Viper

                For many, a quick death may have been preferable to seeing their towns, their homes, their marriages, their families torn apart in slow motion, addiction, depression, violence and suicide.

                But whatevs, you know what you are talking about so you think.

                Now that you mention it, you whine on and on about colonialism but it seems clear that you haven’t really truly thought through the violence meted out to those communities which are sacrificed.

                Economic war and military war may differ in the rates of death, but the young children still die of starvation and disease.

                “you have no cred you zero”

                Why you flatter me.

                • “Now that you mention it, you whine on and on about colonialism but it seems clear that you haven’t really truly thought through the violence meted out to those communities which are sacrificed.”

                  lol what would you know fake flake. I have forgotten more about the subject than you could ever learn. Yes I know you think you’re brainy – you aren’t believe me – you are well below average.

                  And yes I do whine on about colonisation – that is the difference between us colonic – you talk and talk and talk and do fucken nothing. I just do things.

                  edit – your quick death shit shows how fucken stupid and out of touch you are – a web worrier and oh so fucken brave lol

          • Red

            A lot of people feel that Chomsky is an intellectual fraud a smart guy but has no credibility. mainly because of his support in the 70s of the Khmer Rouge and the denial of its atrocities. possibly blinded by the utopia of another failed leftist socialist experiment The latest manifestation been Venezuela

            • Draco T Bastard

              A lot of people feel that Chomsky is an intellectual fraud a smart guy but has no credibility.

              In this sentence “a lot of people” = Red.

              mainly because of his support in the 70s of the Khmer Rouge and the denial of its atrocities.

              [citation needed]

              Hey, do you extend such logic to those that support dictators?

              possibly blinded by the utopia of another failed leftist socialist experiment The latest manifestation been Venezuela

              It’s not socialism that fails but capitalism. Throughout history capitalists have destroyed societies for their own aggrandisement. This is what’s happening now across the world.

              • Red

                If you say so Draco, do a bit of research yourself I am not your student, albeit Chomsky support of KR in the 70s is public knowledge , that is if you don’t live in an echo chamber

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Ah, no, you’re the one who made the assertion – you’re the one that needs to back it up.

                • Chomsky support of KR in the 70s is public knowledge

                  If that’s the case then the public’s knowledge in this instance is faulty and a distortion of reality.

                  Here’s a brief rebuttal of such accusations in a letter to the New York Times by Edward Herman (Chomsky’s co-author on many books and articles dealing with propaganda) in 1988: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/27/books/l-chomsky-and-the-khmer-rouge-407588.html.

                  Herman points out that “in the West, to focus on the distortions and hypocrisies of a propaganda campaign is to become an ”apologist” for the villains of that campaign” and that the claim that Chomsky ‘supported’ the Khmer Rouge is an “institutionalized lie” which only reveals that “our effort was and remains on target“.

              • Red

                On dictators the ethics applied to the state are necessarily different and more complex than to those of individuals

                By the way can you name any of those capitalist countries that have got any where near collapse of Venezuela and thier ilk from a complete melt down, sufferings get and material deprecation

                • Draco T Bastard



                  Have you forgotten the Great Depression? The GFC? The Long Depression?

                  In fact, all of them throughout recorded history. Many have completely collapsed leaving only memories.

                  History tells us that capitalism doesn’t work no matter how the rich try to make it do so because their very existence will collapse the society.

          • Ad

            Chomsky’s argument there runs like he actually wrote Trump’s last speech.

            Both talk about a conspiracy of opinion through the mainstream media. They could wake up and exchange faces.

            But only one of them has what it takes to form a political movement, and make a good running of it.

            That should give you a clue to Chomsky’s actual political alignment. In his own Left Melancholic defeatism he acknowledges that his version of righteous activism, union activism, has irredeemably done its course.

            The common failure of Trump and Chomsky is they can’t admit combatting to win public opinion-formers is futile and insufficient. But of course in both their minds, better to lose and remain champion of the righteous.

            • Puddleglum

              That’s a very misleading commentary about Chomsky Ad.

              They both talk about a conspiracy of opinion through the mainstream media

              First, Trump and Chomsky talk about media opinion manipulation in radically different ways.

              For Trump it’s all about his enemies ganging up on him. For Chomsky, it’s based on comprehensive unearthing of massive amounts of detailed documentation from the past century and systematic analysis of actual coverage of (geo)political events.

              Second, for Trump that ‘conspiracy’ is confined to attacking him and promoting Hillary Clinton. For Chomsky, by contrast, it is an historical, continuing and structurally embedded process of systematic manipulation to protect the interests of power in general. And it is messy, given that, as he frequently notes, modern media operate in relatively free societies (which is why control of opinion will present itself as so important to those with power in such societies).

              Third, Chomsky’s general analysis of media and PR is echoed by many researchers (and, as he points out, by philosopher David Hume centuries ago). Sharon Beder, for example, has written many books similarly detailing the quite deliberate manipulation of public opinion via media by corporations from U.S. power companies to those attempting to manage the environmentalist backlash against their operations.

              Of the books listed in that link I would recommend reading ‘Power Play’, ‘Selling the Work Ethic’ and ‘Global Spin’ for analyses that dovetail with Chomsky and Herman’s ‘propaganda model’ of the media. Much of the evidence Beder presents is in the very words of those attempting to perform such opinion manipulation.

              Stuart Ewen’s famous book ‘All Consuming Images’ once again also details the quite deliberate attempts to manipulate public opinion (along the lines of the examples Chomsky provides in the linked article you are partly responding to – in fact it was Ewen’s work that probably supplied Chomsky with the example of the ‘Liberty Women’ that Bernays hired to march in a parade to promote smoking).

              Frankly, it would be near-magical if dominant (‘mainstream’) media were not structurally biased towards the kinds of interests out of which they emerged and are now thoroughly dependent upon.

              This is not conspiracy, just critical (empirical and logical) analysis that eschews the kind of ideologically dreamy, self-comforting thinking that some educated liberals appear to prefer to promote.

              As for Chomsky’s so-called ‘Left Melancholic defeatism’, I suppose that’s the same ‘defeatism’ behind his near-boringly repetitive claim that people, together, have made incredible, though hard fought for, gains throughout history – from which we now benefit – and his repeated calls for activism and solidarity as the best way to make future gains?

              Presumably it’s also this ‘defeatism’ that is behind his constant advocacy (including in the last sentence of the original linked Alternet article) of our ability to respond to and overcome those attempts to manipulate our opinions and gain more control over our lives. New models of unionisation – often based on experiences of workers in ‘developing economies’ – are obviously part of that push-back, rather than some cloth-cap nostalgia that you seem to imply.

              In fact, it’s revealing that while co-ordinator class lefties in ‘developed economies’ feel they are beyond the need for unions (espousing instead vague and generally incoherent notions of ‘cultural change’ as the way forward), unionisation is a primary tool being used by working people in developing countries (many of them women, btw) to gain some rights and power.

              Similarly, far from thinking that the sorts of analyses he performs should, by themselves, ‘change the world’ Chomsky is self-deprecatory about the importance of what he does. He defers again and again to the ordinary people who mobilise on the ground as the only means to make effective change.

              If you read his books he is more than aware that, at best, what he does is to provide a bit of a toolkit for ‘intellectual self-defence’ against attempts to manipulate opinion. He clearly sees that as a pretty minor contribution – but one that he feels he at least has the skills to make.

              And Chomsky is the last person to think that ‘one person can change the world’; an ambition you use to backhandedly criticise Chomsky by comparing his efforts to Trump’s political campaigns (as if Chomsky is an ineffectual chump for not being able to do what – OMG – even Trump has managed).

              As an aside, Chomsky is advocating strongly that people, especially in ‘swing states’, should vote for Clinton. He sees Trump as a real threat to the kinds of gains ordinary people have made and are trying to defend.

              • Ad

                So you haven’t noticed yet that Trump supporters speak the same code as Adbusters? haven’t figured that Trump has mobilized those same ‘ordinary people’?

                Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent may as well be Trump foreign policy.

                If the unionist left had a leader like Trump, they would forgive him his sins, accept him hint their heart as lord and savior, and when they started losing, would do the same railing against the media as Trump is now. (Lucky for the moistie left all they have is Corbyn and Stein – because righteous losing is their house special)

                Chomsky never understood the mainstream political leadership process. Neither did Trump. Trump just needed a banjo and he’d’ve been fine.

                • weka

                  Adbusters and Trump speaking the same code? Seriously?

                  Ad, you appear to have wandered in CV territory. Lots of authoritative assertion, but it makes less and less sense if you take it out of the context of your own thinking and put it into the context of what is being discussed. Approaching similar degree of nasty too, although you express it in a more laissez faire manner. I get the attraction of being an authority but the whole clever put-down, ‘I’m right’ thing is actually closer to Trump than anything. You’re better than this.

                • Hi Ad,

                  I’m not sure of what you mean by the ‘code’ used by Adbusters and Trump but I certainly have noticed that Trump has inherited the supporters that movements like the Tea Party co-opted – the people who Chomsky notes are in favour of broadly social democratic policies but ‘want government off their backs’.

                  Michael Albert wrote an interesting piece suggesting one reason that Trump appeals to such working class people. If I started to quote from it I’d end up copy and pasting the entire article so I’ll leave it for others to read if they wish.

                  Again, I’m not sure how ‘Manufacturing Consent’ could be Trump’s foreign policy given that the book does not advocate particular foreign policy positions though it does analyse media coverage of various foreign policy events.

                  If “Chomsky never understood the mainstream political leadership process” then all I can say is that the rest of us presumably have next to no chance of ever getting within cooee of understanding it given the time he has spent researching the operations of governments and the political class.

                  And, yet again, I’m not sure of the relevance of the comment as Chomsky – to my knowledge – has never sought political office so why would he need to understand the specific arcania of such a process?

              • Sacha

                Thank you Puddleglum for another thorough reply. Really appreciate the thoughfulness you bring.

        • Draco T Bastard

          The corporations have been oppressing the middle and working classes since forever. They always will do. We work against them and, slowly, things change.

          What we’re going to see from the Trump-alikes is an outright armed uprising trying to bring about change now but not change for the better, just change that puts those Trump-alikes on top rather than on the bottom. In other words, a change from what is to what is with a different bunch of psychopaths on top.

          The Trump-alikes don’t realise that Trump wants more of the same. He’s done very well out of it after all and he doesn’t care about any one else except insofar in that they can get him more power and wealth.

      • Anne 21.1.3

        It’s hard not to see the similarities between the modus operandi of the Third Reich, Stalinist regime and other despotic nations past and present. Many of Trump’s most ardent supporters will take the law into their own hands when he loses the presidency. A time NOT to be in America.

        • Karen

          Much more Third Reich than Stalinist. I am usually very wary of godwinning but there are many parallels here that I find terrifying.

          Trump has unleashed something that will be difficult to contain when he loses the election, particularly as the rednecks he appeals to are armed.

      • Red 21.1.4

        I doubt it, the real nutter just end up as survivalist and do thier own thing, they don’t want to be in government, they don’t want government

    • weka 21.2

      “Confidence in one’s superiority:”

      Oh dear,

      Open Mike 15/10/2016

  21. joe90 22

    Looks like la segunda parte is underway.

    While shooting the 13th season of The Apprentice, Donald Trump repeatedly used a racial slur to refer to rapper and contestant Lil Jon—even after several producers urged him to stop, three staffers on the show told The Daily Beast.

    During an episode of a season that first aired in 2013 (dubbed All-Star Celebrity Apprentice), the “Turn Down for What” singer was tasked, along with the other celebrity contenders, with mounting competing displays around and inside glass trucks in order to promote hair-care products. In the heat of competition, Lil Jon bought and donned an Uncle Sam costume to help advertise the “beautiful” hair product.

    During the day’s shoot, Trump himself caught wind of this gimmick and began referring to Lil Jon around Apprentice staff as “Uncle Tom” instead of Uncle Sam.

    “Look, he’s Uncle Tom!” one longtime Apprentice staffer recalled Trump blurting out at least twice. The staffer said Trump was utterly tone-deaf to the racially charged history of the term, which is used to deride a black man deemed to be subservient to white people.


  22. joe90 24

    The Great Barrier Reef it ain’t so great anymore.

    I was walking down Sunset Strip,
    Phillip Island, not Los Angeles
    Got me some hot chips and a cold drink
    Took a sandy seat on the shore
    There’s a paper on the ground,
    it makes my headache quite profound
    As I read it out aloud
    It said “The Great Barrier Reef it ain’t so great anymore
    It’s been raped beyond belief, the dredgers treat it like a whore”

    Courtney Barnett

    The Great Barrier Reef of Australia passed away in 2016 after a long illness. It was 25 million years old.

    For most of its life, the reef was the world’s largest living structure, and the only one visible from space. It was 1,400 miles long, with 2,900 individual reefs and 1,050 islands. In total area, it was larger than the United Kingdom, and it contained more biodiversity than all of Europe combined. It harbored 1,625 species of fish, 3,000 species of mollusk, 450 species of coral, 220 species of birds, and 30 species of whales and dolphins. Among its many other achievements, the reef was home to one of the world’s largest populations of dugong and the largest breeding ground of green turtles.


    The Great Barrier Reef was predeceased by the South Pacific’s Coral Triangle, the Florida Reef off the Florida Keys, and most other coral reefs on earth. It is survived by the remnants of the Belize Barrier Reef and some deepwater corals.
    In lieu of flowers, donations can be made to Ocean Ark Alliance.


    • marty mars 24.1

      I love Courtney Barnett – nice version of dead fox – https://youtu.be/VyrtLmjiCzI

      and yep the great wonder of the living reef – slowly slipping away in front of us

    • Manuka AOR 24.2

      A 46 sec video & audio of mother humpback helping free her offspring from a fishing net, on Gold Coast: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-15/whale-juvenile-humpback-tail-caught-tangled-freed-gold-coast/7935772

    • weka 24.3

      Outside fucked up on this one,

      Great Barrier Reef Obituary Goes Viral, To The Horror Of Scientists

      “The message should be that it isn’t too late … not we should all give up.”

      10/14/2016 08:22 am ET | Updated 10 hours ago

      Chris D’Angelo Associate Editor, HuffPost Hawaii
      Holger Leue via Getty Images
      Great Barrier Reef, Queensland, Australia.

      Dead and dying are two very different things.

      If a person is diagnosed with a life-threatening illness, their loved ones don’t rush to write an obituary and plan a funeral. Likewise, species aren’t declared extinct until they actually are.

      In a viral article entitled “Obituary: Great Barrier Reef (25 Million BC-2016),” however, writer Rowan Jacobsen proclaimed ― inaccurately and, we can only hope, hyperbolically ― that Earth’s largest living structure is dead and gone.

      “The Great Barrier Reef of Australia passed away in 2016 after a long illness,” reads the sensational obituary, published Tuesday in Outside Magazine. “It was 25 million years old.”

      There’s no denying the Great Barrier Reef is in serious trouble, having been hammered in recent years by El Niño and climate change. In April, scientists from the Australian Research Council’s Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies found that the most severe coral bleaching event on record had impacted 93 percent of the reef.

      But as a whole, it is not dead. Preliminary findings published Thursday of Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority surveys show 22 percent of its coral died from the bleaching event. That leaves more than three quarters still alive ― and in desperate need of relief.

      Two leading coral scientists that The Huffington Post contacted took serious issue with Outside’s piece, calling it wildly irresponsible.


      • joe90 24.3.1

        The pessimist inside me says denial, first of the five stages…… in 2012 it was reported that the reef had lost more than half of its coral since 1985, and, referenced in the article –

        Veron is aware of his stature in this country, and in conjunction with many other scientists has strove to have the reef’s health included in this federal campaign. There’s been success on that front, but he’s sceptical of Hunt’s proposals. “He’s announced funding for water quality and the [abatement] of crown-of-thorns. Well, water quality has nothing to do with it. It’s basically irrelevant. The bottom line is, each year the oceans are just a little bit warmer. El Niño gets more severe. The oceans equilibrate to warming, like a kettle equilibrating to the flame. And there’s a lag in this warming, of about 20 years. Even if we stopped emissions right now, the water temperatures would still rise.”


        • weka

          I took it as being about the problem with saying it’s dead is that people will give up on it. Not that there isn’t a massively serious problem.

          “And there’s a lag in this warming, of about 20 years. Even if we stopped emissions right now, the water temperatures would still rise.”

          Yes, and that should be said too.

  23. Manuka AOR 25

    “Democracy itself is at stake”
    At a fiery campaign event for Democrat Hillary Clinton in Cleveland, Ohio, Obama trashed Trump as a dictator-in-the-making, but also voiced concerns about how Trump’s legion of supporters might react to a possible election defeat.

    Trump has in the last week declared himself free from the shackles of normal political etiquette and hurled a series of highly inflammatory accusations against Clinton and her husband.

    “Civility is on the ballot” on November 8, Obama told a group of largely young voters in the swing state of Ohio.

    “Tolerance is on the ballot,” he continued. “Courtesy is on the ballot. Honesty is on the ballot. Equality is on the ballot. Kindness is on the ballot. All the progress we made in the last eight years is on the ballot.

    “Democracy itself is on the ballot right now.”

    • Draco T Bastard 25.1

      He’s probably right but how much different is that from it being under threat under his rule?

  24. Muttonbird 26

    Had an interesting experience this morning. I was part of a PTA working bee at a central/eastern Auckland primary school. We were replacing the front fence from steel posts and wire to white picket. Catholic school, decile 6.

    There were about 8 dads there doing the palings and painting and when the rain came a couple of the mums brought morning tea, sausage rolls, mini-mince pies, coffee and cake. The talk turned to local politics.

    What struck me most about the talk was the self-centredness of some of these volunteers. Here they were giving up their time for the school but their position in the discussion around Auckland issues was all about what changes might benefit them as individuals rather than what might be good for the whole city longer term. It was so short-sighted.

    Quick examples were one guy talking about the CRL not benefiting him as an individual because he’s a consultant who drives to many different areas of the city for his work but often works in the one place in the city which would take him 2 hours by public transport but 45 minutes by car. I said to him the CRL might not be targeted at him but he would surely benefit from it with reduced congestion on the roads.

    Another said that his kids should be allowed ride on the footpath and I said there were concerns about the safe use of the footpath by the elderly. He said he’d rather his kid hit an elderly person than a car hit his kid.

    It occurred to me there were many people who were generous on one level, which is the level that is relevant to them and their immediate family, but that generosity did not extend beyond their own front doorstep.

    For a lot of Kiwis now charity begins, and ends, at home.

    • Sacha 26.1

      That’s a great summary of a right-leaning inclination: generosity bounded by genes, no such thing as society, etc.

    • weka 26.2

      It’s a very good description of the malady of our times.

      • Muttonbird 26.2.1

        I think when pressed they are somewhat reflective or embarrassed but only in the way that social thinking is a thing of the past which by default doesn’t exist now.

        It’s the same position the top earners have. That they would happily pay more tax if asked to.

  25. xanthe 27

    democrats setting up for grope allegations in may

  26. Muttonbird 28

    Wayne Mapp is very active on The Standard at the moment.

    Does anyone reckon he’s running interference for the National government and is remunerated for that work?

    Or, is he just an ordinary right wing person concerned that socially responsible policy might not be too far away?

    • Anne 28.1

      I actually think he enjoys coming here and debating with us. No more nor less. At least he adheres to TS policy and from time to time I find I can agree with him.

    • Stuart Munro 28.2

      The horrid spectre that haunts the dreams of this government and all its vestigial detritus, and wakes them screaming in the night, is accountability.

    • RedBaronCV 28.3

      I get the feeling that maybe we are seeing some of the next year’s Nact attack lines being gently aired. Mainly to see what sort of blow back/counter attack they get so that they can be refined to take account of the commentary generated.
      I have wondered if it would be better just to let them fall and ignore them.
      I’m assuming he doesn’t imagine that he is going to convert us so is there an ulterior motive?
      Note most of the statements are definitive – “funding private schools is fair”- and as there is disquiet about charter school funding – will we see a linkage where private school funding is used as a shield and distraction from charter school funds. ( The economists have a word for it that I forget.)

      • Muttonbird 28.3.1

        Yeah, there’s 300 comments here on this, an ordinary Saturday in October. They call it an echo chamber but there is no doubt The Standard is a crucible of socially conscious thought. Thought which the current government would prefer not happen.

  27. Manuka AOR 29

    The NSW Parliament denounces Trump as unfit for office. (and a “revolting slug”)
    Greens MP Jeremy Buckhingham tabled a motion on the business paper slamming the Republican, which passed unopposed on Thursday morning.

    It said Parliament condemned the “misogynistic, hateful comments made by the Republican candidate for President of the United States of America, Mr Donald Trump, about women and minorities”.

    It said the taped conversations in which Mr Trump boasted about using his fame to allowed him to grope women “clearly describe sexual assault”.
    And it said the Parliament “agrees with those who have described Mr Trump as ‘a revolting slug’ unfit for public office”.

    “It’s clear that all reasonable and decent people find Donald Trump’s behaviour obnoxious and that the world is hoping American voters reject his politics of hate.” http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-13/nsw-parliament-denounces-donald-trump/7929456
    “”It is great that all sides of Australian politics, from conservatives to Liberals to Greens, agree that Donald Trump is a revolting slug and completely unfit for public office,” Mr Buckingham said after the vote was passed.”

  28. james 30

    Excellent news for he right – Kim Dotcom is back trying to change the government.

    I wonder if they will join with Mana this time?

    Can only be good for key !!! Just like last time.

  29. Colonial Viper 31

    Comment 270 FTW!

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