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Open mike 16/03/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 16th, 2021 - 139 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

139 comments on “Open mike 16/03/2021 ”

  1. Treetop 1

    What are the traits a person has who commits minor – major harm on a woman because she is a woman or identifies as one.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  2. Grumpy 2

    Great comment. Women have battled for hundreds of years to gain equality yet now it is being given away by the confusing of sex with gender. How much easier is it to dehumanise the female sex by weakening its very existence?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  3. Grumpy 3

    "Women" have the solution in their own hands. It is the parties of "women", particularly "leftist women" who are pushing this nonsense. Perhaps it is time for the feminists to simply just say "No" to their own politicians.

    On another note, a sign that Cressida Dick is finished. Can the left offer some praise through clenched teeth at the symbolism of this…..https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9359087/Maskless-Kate-Middleton-pays-emotional-visit-Sarah-Everard-memorial.html

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  4. vto 4

    Yeah nah not on board in the same form or to the same extent as you and others weka

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  5. vto 5

    but I am curious as to who raises these violent people and how they end up like this..

    who?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      Society.

      • vto 5.1.1

        So society is the cause. Society has made these people violent. They are not violent because men, they are violent because society. Which explains why violence is not limited to men.

        • Muttonbird 5.1.1.1

          Well, it's always been a criticism that men have long been over represented in the running of society (governance both corporate and state). So violence certainly is because men.

          • vto 5.1.1.1.1

            Of course, men have a greater say in the running of society so bear a greater degree of responsibility, but it isn't exclusive by any means (think birth, baby, toddler, school, all dominated by women), so therefore not 'because men' at all according to the logic in your comments.

            • Muttonbird 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Jordan Peterson fan, are you?

              I don't think you're going to make many friends by blaming violence toward women, on women.

              It's a bloody ridiculous suggestion, and that's being nice.

              • vto

                I did not blame it on women, I agreed with you i.e. society (which is made up of both men and women, isn't it)

                • Foreign waka

                  Muttonbird and vto: Violence is an expression of anger and aggression, mostly because of hurt pride, loss of a possession, loss of rank amongst peers. Since men have most possessions in material terms which goes hand in hand with rank, believing that women are just another thing to own, they react to any perceived loss with defend or destroy. Whether a car or a women would not matter. Add alcohol, drugs or a mental illness……

                  • Treetop

                    The traits you raise anger, aggression, hurt pride, loss of possession and rank when reinforced by society violence impacts???

    • Sabine 5.2

      He was raised i guess by his parents. He was raised by society, school, sports clubs, the parents of his mates, his grand parents etc etc etc. And he was raised well enough to join the Police force.

      And then he went out and he killed a women who was walking home at 9 pm at night.

      And it was all his fault. And only his fault.

      surely.

      • vto 5.2.1

        You contradict yourself… if the person was raised by all of those people then how can only that person solely be at fault?

        Doesn't make sense.

        • Sabine 5.2.1.1

          do you have a brain?

          do you make your own decisions today?

          or are all the people that are somewhat involved in raising the child that you once were still responsible for the decision that you take today?

          Is that how you navigate life? you are never at fault, it must be the others? Does that make sense to you?

          • vto 5.2.1.1.1

            You don't have to be rude ('do you have a brain') – that is rather aggressive and abusive.

            So you consider that a person's background, upbringing or environment has no impact on how they conduct themselves on a daily basis?

            • Sabine 5.2.1.1.1.1

              sorry, do i need to ask you again?

              Did you make your own decisions today or did you not? If you did, then you are at fault for all the good and the bad things you are going to do today. And tomorrow and so on and so forth. Nor your mother, not your father, not your nana, poppa, or teachers. You are today responsible for your decisions.

              Does this answer your question?

              • vto

                you answered my question with more questions

                so i returned the favour

                lets start again shall we… you answer mine then I will be happy to answer yours… "You contradict yourself… if the person was raised by all of those people then how can only that person solely be at fault?"

            • Jimmy 5.2.1.1.1.2

              I think Sabine is trying to say the person should be accountable or responsible for their own actions.

        • weka 5.2.1.2

          "if the person was raised by all of those people then how can only that person solely be at fault?"

          Where has someone said it is all solely the violent person's fault? Be specific.

          I mean, if the copper killed Sarah Everard, he has a huge amount of responsibility in that action. More than whatever his mother did. But still, context matters, humans are social beings with many influences on their development. This isn't a hard thing to understand.

          Your question seems like a set up, because you already know how the responses will go.

          • vto 5.2.1.2.1

            it is in response to the nature of so many posts which proceed "its men men men" and brook no dissenting view at all.

            it is near-impossible to discuss this here, and always has been

            "Where has someone said it is all solely the violent person's fault? Be specific."

            here… sabine: "And it was all his fault. And only his fault." … just up there in this very sub-thread

            • Sabine 5.2.1.2.1.1

              Yes, i said that.
              I said that the man who managed until now to be a cop – is now in the slammer for killing a women. And you know what would have happened had he not decided that killing that women was a good idea, he would not be in the slammer and she would still be alive.

              And that dear VTO is on him. No matter his past, until that moment it did not hinder him from living a decent life – unless it is found out like others that got caught to be a serial killer – and even then its not the fault of his mother, father or even the evil witch from the west. It is still his fault and to the end of his days he will be nothing more then a cowardly murderer who is to blame for his own demise.

    • Anker 5.3

      The Dunedin study has shown it is a combo of genes and environment.

      Men who are violent towards women most often have characterlogical disturbance, i.e a personality disorder. Unless the violence is situational i.e. precipitated by social stressors.

      • vto 5.3.1

        Yep, that study is very interesting …

        I'm too scared to outline here what else that study found in relation to this issue. I would get beaten to an online standard pulp.

        • weka 5.3.1.1

          maybe stop trying to imply that women are just as responsible for violence as men and see how you get on. That some women are also violent doesn't negate the fact that most violence is done by men.

          And yes, not all men, and yes, men can be victims too. But the arguments I have seen you make here are generally misleading and run along the lines that men aren’t responsible for violence as a class.

          • vto 5.3.1.1.1

            "stop trying to imply that women are just as responsible for violence as men"

            I have not done that.

            see here "Of course, men have a greater say in the running of society so bear a greater degree of responsibility"

            and here "sure, accountability and responsibility no problem, but not cause"

          • vto 5.3.1.1.2

            "the arguments I have seen you make here are generally misleading" and run along the lines that men aren’t responsible for violence as a class."

            Sorry, I disagree vehemently about the "misleading" allegation. Perhaps you could back that up with some evidence.

            ..

            "nd run along the lines that men aren’t responsible for violence as a class."

            I don't believe they are responsible for violence as a class, correct. Not exclusively, no way.

            That is what I am testing and trying to tease out, to see how that belief holds up. Hence these few questions. This is a good place to test this belief, no?

        • RedLogix 5.3.1.2

          I'm going to break a four year silence here. Just for the moment, then I'll go back to self-censorship. If vto is prepared to go against the flow here, then I've little excuse to remain silent either.

          The male of almost all higher order species is larger, stronger and more aggressive. Humans are no exception – our biology ensures that males will always be the more physically dangerous of the two genders. In addition, well understood processes of female sexual selection will always ensure this remains the case.

          Secondly the overall homicide rate in NZ is low and declining, over the past 30 years it has almost halved and is now about 0.7 per 100,000. In common with many other developed nations like, Norway, Finland, Germany – the ratio of male to female victims is almost 50:50. And while each murder is both deplorable and a tragedy, and rightly shocks and appalls the wider community, we should not confuse impact with frequency. In NZ there are usually between 30-50 murders per year, and 15-20 of the victims will be women. (And a sadly high number will be children). Murder is an extreme outlier event.

          Combining these two realities, that men are on average somewhat more aggressive than women, and that homicide is in essence an extreme act of aggression – the nature of the overlapping distribution curves ensures that almost all the perpetrators at the extreme will be men. While at the same time the vast, vast majority of men will not be murderers, violent, nor even slightly brutal.

          This means that most men react to events like Sarah Everard's death with a crystal clear conviction of condemnation. We fully embrace a criminal justice system whose primary purpose is the capture, conviction and incarceration of the perpetrators of these crimes. No if's, no maybe's, we hold the them personally accountable. And for this reason we reject all attempts at making all men guilty for the crimes of a few. The history of all such group guilt pogroms is uniformly catastrophic.

          We should understand that while all men have an innate capacity for evil, it is only weak and depraved men who lack the strength of character to control it. That being the exact opposite message being fed to us, that masculinity and it's associated qualities of strength, confidence, discipline and the capacity to provide and protect, are somehow 'brutal' and 'toxic'.

          If there is a positive framework here, it is that humans also have a remarkable capacity to modify and redirect their biological instincts through socialisation and development. For example unlike most species, human males can tolerate each other in large groups, and routinely work toward massive common goals. And as modernity produces increasing wealth, lower resource competition has substantially reduced male on male aggression in much of the developed world. A glance at recorded history demonstrates this effect dramatically – large reductions in violence over long periods of time.

          However this is not the whole story, and I think vto that you touch closely on something important that's often overlooked in these discussions. Look at this wiki page on Homicide by Gender – then order the table by % male victims (or female). What I'm seeing is that relatively undeveloped nations like Panama or Colombia that experience high levels of poverty and inequality tend to have high rates of homicide and high fractions of male victims, while relatively prosperous ones like Germany and NZ tend toward much lower total rates, but a 50:50 split between the sex of the victim.

          I'm not at all clear what this means. One obvious interpretation is that as we've successfully reduced the more tractable, material causes of violence, we're left with the more difficult ones buried deeper within human fallibility. When we ask why such profoundly baffling, appalling crimes as these occur, the answers we get are not likely to be simple or comforting. The Dunedin Study (and many others), which I admire greatly, has been instrumental in casting flickers of light into these crawlspaces of our psyche, but translating these insights into a wider understanding of usable actions is still missing.

          The ideal number of homicides is of course zero, but getting there isn't going to be a matter of shouting loud slogans, or wielding manipulative guilt and shaming tactics. It's going to take time and clear-eyed consideration from both sexes.

          • vto 5.3.1.2.1

            Great post red, to be read alongside the other views expressed here.

            I do genuinely like to put my thoughts up for testing, hence bouncing back into this arena briefly. I appreciate that today the responses to my points have been reasonably reasonable, weka and sabine particularly, thanks. I welcome your tests..

          • Sabine 5.3.1.2.2

            We should understand that while all men have an innate capacity for evil, it is only weak and depraved men who lack the strength of character to control it.

            Do you actually really believe that, or did you only type that to feel better about that whole story.

            So let me ad this to your kumbaya

            The fine upstanding man that rape, maim, abuse, and kill women are our fathers, our stepfathers, our brothers, our uncles, our grandfathers, the mates of our male relatives, they are teachers, priests, coaches, doctors, and generally non of them are considered any less manly then the non violent one. And you know why? Until they are found out no one knows about their little kink.

            • RedLogix 5.3.1.2.2.1

              Stand by it 100%.

              All humans, male and female, have their secret little kinks.

              The question is not whether we're innocent or not, but whether we have the capacity to control our dark urges safely. And people who either pretend they're harmless or fail to confront their capacity for evil, are the ones most likely to fall at the moment when an opportunity or temptation crosses their path.

              • Sabine

                but whether we have the capacity to control our dark urges safely

                dark urges? controlling them safely?

                That really just makes all men beast and women and children must be careful around all these beasts, lest they drop their guard and boom…..abuse, rape, beatings, violence, death.

          • AB 5.3.1.2.3

            Hey RL – I appreciate the effort and thought you have put into this. Like all your long posts, though I have areas of disagreement, I salute the good intentions.

            I just think it's all a bit wrong-headed. When women are justifiably enraged, they just don't care about the niceties of your argument. No woman holds you personally responsible for what another man does and they already know that most men don't do this stuff. But what is terrifying and exhausting is that they can't tell in advance which man might or might not do such things. There are no clear predictors until something extremely scary happens. How do you expect them to regard us (men) as a whole, if that is the reality?

            I think the best thing we can do as blokes is to express our horror, try to be good people in all our dealings with others, and keep quiet for a while.

  6. vto 6

    these people dont end up violent because man

    surely

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  7. Morrissey 7

    Sturmer, the King of Nothing, continues his plummet to oblivion

    In most of Australia and in New Zealand, Labour is deservedly the most trusted political party. The very opposite is the case in the U.K.

    • Ad 7.1

      They are up 6 points since last year.

      Once vaccine rollout starts in earnest I'd expect the'd lose a bit of that.

    • AB 7.2

      They appear hopelessly lost – not even able to get traction against far-right genocidal lunatics like the Tories who have100,000+ unnecessary deaths on their hands. Too busy purging their own left and running in terror from the Murdoch propaganda machine.

    • Adrian Thornton 7.3

      He reminds me of NZ Labour's, Stuart Nash and Anna Lorke both of whom I used to think had for some reason missed to opportunity to represent what seemed to be their natural party..ie;National…I no longer hold this view and have come to realize that they represent (New) Labour NZ perfectly, and it is I who is out of step with what Labour is today, staunch and committed purveyors of laz a faire free market liberalism…oh well.

      Turn Labour Left!

  8. weka 8

    An explainer about the moderation on the Women and male violence post. Comments there are for women only. It's not always possible to tell if a commenter is male or female, so there's a benefit of the doubt. I've moved some comments to OM yesterday and today. If I've made a mistake, my apologies, please let me know and I will sort it out.

    It helps to read the whole post that authors put up, or at least read the ending because that's where moderation notes often go.

  9. Grace Miller 9

    Women are not a feeling – you cannot identify into womanhood by popping lippy, heels and and a dress/wig on. They are men.

    Women are a fact. Biology matters. By the way, the staggering 'deaths of trans every year' is 320 or so. When you go to bed tonight, 137 biological women will have been killed. And tomorrow. And tomorrow And tomorrow. So the stats that men in dresses are more at risk than actual biological women is a lie and a reprehensible one at that.

    http://www.terfisaslur.com go look at some REAL hatred.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Siobhan 9.1

      "you cannot identify into womanhood by popping lippy, heels and and a dress/wig on."

      Thats barely even the definition of cross dressing…its what blokes at the rugby club do every now and then.

      Its absolutely not the definition of 'Trans'.

      Your stats are also meaningless. Even by your daft definition of trans (and, in that spirit, entirely ignoring women who identify as men)…these crimes are not accurately recorded. Nor are they contextualised as per head of relevant population.

      How your comment is being allowed I do not know.

      • weka 9.1.1

        the men in dresses framing is inflammatory, reinforces prejudice, and imo makes it harder to discuss the issues.

        Self-ID will allow any male person to say they are a woman, it won't just be trans women. It will include men who cross dress, males who ID as non-binary, and men generally who will do that for a range of reasons. Can you see the problem there?

    • Anker 9.2

      Totally agree Grace……..100%. Unfortunately one of the first things our new womans affairs minister has spoken about is changing Births deaths and marriages, so will become possible to change your biological sex/gender without question.

      I realize she is also minster of internal affairs but from my research this is the first or possibly one of the first statements she has made about her port folios and as I woman I feel incredible let down that this is the case.

      Trans gender is a health issue. It has to be because if people want to transition and I believe there are some people who this is very very real for they have to consult with Drs who will prescribe the appropriate drugs and surgery.

    • Chris 9.3

      You'd think that people attacking the so-called terfs would be the first to realise that their behaviour is more consistent with what men do than anything else. But then I guess they’d say that was anti-non-binary.

  10. Grace Miller 10

    UK High Court banned puberty blockers for under 16s bc it's wrong to sterilise your kids.

    UK government backtracked on changing self-ID law last year. Can anyone get the Minister of Women to note this important step?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 10.1

      Hi Grace, I'm going to move your comments to Open Mike, because I think they're opening up a discussion that is not best to have under this particular post at this time (eg if I leave your comments here, then I will have to allow people that disagree, and then we will be having a fight over gender instead of talking about the issues in the post). Hope that makes sense. I moved someone arguing against Rosemary's comment yesterday for the same reason. Open Mike is a better place to discuss what you raise right now.

      Comments moved from here https://thestandard.org.nz/women-and-male-violence

  11. Muttonbird 11

    Some outrageously crappy journalism here. It is by an Australian, Luke Malpass, so no surprises.

    The irony is, in the short run at least, the politics of deportees works in both prime ministers’ political favour. Australia gets to be tough on non-citizen crimes, which is popular with its population (and one suspects would be here as well), while New Zealand gets to stand up to Australia.

    How on earth does rising crime including gun crime, increased gang membership, and poor mental health of deportees 'work in Jacinda Ardern's political favour'?

    Malpass reduces everything to international tuff guy posturing as if that is all that is important.

    As I said, typical white, Australian, male.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/124544841/mates-or-mugs-the-australian-relationship-is-now-frosty-on-several-fronts

    • Ad 11.1

      It works exceedingly well for Ardern because she gets to play the "powerless compassionate" leader one more time.

      Its the main thing she does well.

      • bwaghorn 11.1.1

        Is she powerless though?

        Surely nz can refuse entry to the planes into our airspace that cart the 501s ?

        • Ad 11.1.1.1

          Not if he's a citizen.

          • Sanctuary 11.1.1.1.1

            IMO, withdrawing the landing rights to an aircraft that happens to be carrying 501s is quite different, diplomatically speaking, to refusing New Zealanders a right of return.

            After all, if they arrive here we can't deny them entry. If they can't get here is another issue entirely that makes the first one moot. Besides, it could hardly make the trans-Tasman relationship any worse to smugly dance on the head of a pin logically while Dutton and Scomo have splenetic hissy fits at being "stuck" with the 501s and we get to smirk for a change.

      • Muttonbird 11.1.2

        Dumb comment. The inference being the more social upheaval in New Zealand the better for Ardern.

        • Sabine 11.1.2.1

          Well no worries then, we can do that without the 501. We just wait another few month, homelessness will be up, unemployment for women will be up, benefits will even less hold up, babies will still die on average of 1 every 5 weeks and so on and so forth.

          Maybe that will be enough social upheaval for Ardern to finally do something with that clear majority other then of course not upsetting her national voters. Mind, it is not as of today, so who knows.

        • Ad 11.1.2.2

          Perfectly true. She's popular mainly because she does well in a crisis, and we've had at least one a year.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.3

        Ardern playing the "powerless compassionate" leader is the main thing she does well, in your opinion? The PM’s not the only one acting up/out, imho.
        frown At least you wrote "main".

        Oh the power and the passion
        Oh the temper of the time
        Oh the power and the passion
        Sometimes you've got to take the hardest line

        • Ad 11.1.3.1

          She's looking more and more like Key.

          Talks well. Doesn't achieve much.

          And the consistent popularity of them both shows it’s largely what we want.

          • Muttonbird 11.1.3.1.1

            More than 100,000 people have signed up for free vocational training, launched as part of the Covid-19 recovery plan.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124545395/more-than-100000-sign-up-for-free-vocational-training-courses

            One of the things which has hampered our infrastructure and housing builds is labour. Here's a government achieving much in that space.

            You've been out of sorts since misspelling Berenstain Bears the other day, and having it pointed out.

            Let it go.

            • Ad 11.1.3.1.1.1

              Water governance reform: voluntary and nothing happened.

              Health reform: nothing after the report

              Mental health: lots of funding and no plan after 2 years, and excuses for Christchurch trauma assistance

              Secondary education reform: after pay increase, nothing happened

              Electricity reform: nothing happened

              Social welfare reform: four minor changes over 22 recommendations

              Tax reform: a small increase for the highest minority, otherwise nothing

              Economic development: place ten dollar bill on photocopier, place photocopier on the window ledge, press print $30 billion times

              Any of the social development goals: static measurements

              Housing price reform: 1.5 terms in and we may get an announcement soon

              Public housing waiting lists: multiple times worse under Labour

              Police reform: nada

              Crime: gang numbers way up

              Under-employment and working poverty: about the same as National

              Local government reform: zip

              Climate change reform: un-enacted recommendations after 1.5 terms

              Sure be happy with vocational training. And a public holiday and a minor minimum wage increase. But there's no need to sell New Zealand short.

              • Muttonbird

                I'm trying to remember what happened in March last year which might have changed the landscape…

                …nope, but it'll come to me eventually.

                • Ad

                  Raise your sights.

                  I'm going to keep running the ruler over this government as the pre-budget announcements come out.

                  Turn Labour Effective.

                  • Muttonbird

                    One of the very few celebrated governments in the post-pandemic world right now. You might have seen the news.

                    Relative to others the Ardern government is spectacular. Relative to base issues and ignoring Covid (which you can't), I'll agree, it's incremental.

                • Sabine

                  yeah, that was last march, and then we locked the doors and then we had elections and just before the election the PM told us that no she would not increase benefits.. And the reserve bank gave lots of cheap money to rich people making houses even cheaper and the PM said she don't mind if house prices raise too much……..never was 'too much' defined. And then came out a raport on child poverty, and statistically they achieved something, but poor urchins in their emergency housing would not be able to tell. And crime is up, but lets blame Oz for that.

                  And unemployment is good on average, but never mind the details. And wages are up – on average, thanks to all the jobs lost on the low income scale.

                  Yeah, nothing much got done, a bit of tinkering here and there a trickle down on us if you so will, and that is all the government seem to be good for.

                  But hey the Lion King will have a show if you have the money to pay the ticket.

                  Gee, lucky the pandemic, otherwise who could be blamed.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.3.1.2

            According to you @10.1, the PM's success is mainly down to doing "powerless compassionate" well. Sounds a bit ‘girlie‘.

            How would you sum up Sir John's schtick?

            • Ad 11.1.3.1.2.1

              Boyish with beer and sausages. Also popular and unwilling to spend massive political capital. Same as Ardern.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Key did spend a bit of capital, floating the ideas of mining in National Parks and a new flag, plus transferring public wealth into private hands.

                Who was the last 'grown-up' NZ PM, do you reckon – Clark? Or English, at least until he promoted the tinned spaghetti pizza?

                Seems to me Ardern is different because she's not in politics to make the rich richer. But that could just be good marketing, and why else would anyone be in politics anyway?

                Maybe the major societal issues, e.g. inequality, were simply allowed to ‘drift‘ until they became too big to tackle in any meaningful way that didn't also risk social upheaval, such that (in the short-term) deferral (BAU) is the safest politcal choice? Time will tell.

                https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-03-2017/a-statistical-analysis-of-john-keys-legacy/

                • Incognito

                  If all Ardern is good for or at is to win elections for Labour she might want to consider a change of job and make better use of her talents.

                  The rich are getting richer, aren’t they?

                  Reserve Bank figures show households that own property and have money in stocks and term deposits made over $250 billion of tax-free capital gains in Labour’s first term.

                  Hello! Anybody home?

                  https://www.newsroom.co.nz/when-winning-matters-more-than-taxing-wealth

                  • mikesh

                    One doesn't "make" capital gains. They just happen. Serendipitously.

                    • Incognito

                      There is a weird but undeniable correlation between people buying Lotto tickets and winning the Jackpot. The odds of winning in the housing market are heaps better than with Lotto. Similarly, the losers of the housing market are much bigger losers than in Lotto.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    If all Ardern is good for or at is to win elections for Labour she might want to consider a change of job and make better use of her talents.

                    A talent for winning general elections (two on the trot now) is highly prized in politics – many affiliated with opposition political parties are hoping and praying that Ardern is planning a career change, but I doubt they're motivated by any consideration of how the PM might make better use of her talents.

                    The rich are getting richer, aren’t they?

                    Bank on it – the momentum in the growth of inequality in NZ (and globally) makes it tough to stop, let alone reverse. A huge majority of NZ politicians come from the 'winning side' of inequality, and even if their origins were on the 'losing side', they're all winners now – can’t be helped.

                    • Incognito

                      I can feel your fatalism 😉

                      I guess you’re saying that NZ politicians represent middle NZ. The rich will be ok, no matter who leads Government. Some poor might become slightly less poor, depending on who leads Government.

                      Education and decent job used to be a ticket to buy your own house but no longer unless you want to commute for a couple of hours or longer, each way, each day.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Deferring significant changes to BAU will be popular and sustainable for a decade or three, and will suit me personally. But I wonder about the distribution of wealth, and living standards, in post-2050 NZ.

                    A few weeks ago I floated the idea (it won’t be original) of a parliamentary quota (say 12 MPs) drawn from the most poverty-stricken (or ‘least wealthy‘, if that’s preferable) 10% of NZ society.

                    Perhaps there should be a MP quota drawn from those 10% of NZers who have accumulated a collective $13 billion debt; debt that might be a barrier to becoming an MP.

                    And maybe such a quota would foster greater political recognition and understanding of the need for transformative resilience to improve "intergenerational societal stability" (nice phrase that).

                    Honestly I don't know what's more likely; a 10% parliamentary quota for those mired in poverty, or a reversal of current trends in inequality.

                    • Incognito

                      Tighten or re-direct the money-tap.

                      Change and tighten tax rules around investment in residential property.

                      Introduce mandatory property managers/landlords who have to adhere to a professional code & standards and rules & regulations similar to real estate agents and financial advisors, for example. Weed out the cowboys and bad apples.

                      Introduce local rates for empty homes and unoccupied land (land-banking) and make these progressive over time and dependent on zone (i.e. zones of high need for new dwellings). Don’t stomp on it, build on it and occupy it.

                      Build more State Housing. Build, build, and build.

                      Make Public Transport from suburbs in & out of CBD more attractive.

                      Discourage street parking in city zones (like European cities).

                      Encourage more high-rise apartment-style buildings in cities (like European cities).

                      This is just a quick suck of the thumb. Naysayers will have a field day, as usual. They need to STFU; only constructive criticism is needed, the rest is just distractive and divertive noise.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    yes Great wish list.

                    Kiwis and Nimbyism when it comes to living in high-rise, high-density developments [Aug. 2019]
                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/115197113/new-zealanders-nimbys-when-it-comes-to-living-in-high-rise-highdensity-developments

          • AB 11.1.3.1.3

            Key didn't talk well, he was semi-coherent most of the time. But I know what you mean – he could be mistaken for someone who was talking well if you already agreed with him and weren't really listening. Key achieved plenty – he managed to change virtually nothing and maintain a status quo that already hugely advantaged his supporters. And he got a few little things in that widened that advantage – like power company partial privatisation.

            Aside from that, the comparison is apt – Ardern is emerging as an adroit manager of the status quo with a few little shifts here and there. It is storing up bigger problems for the future.

            • Muttonbird 11.1.3.1.3.1

              (Key) could be mistaken for someone who was talking well if you already agreed with him and weren't really listening

              Sick burn.

              smiley

          • Sabine 11.1.3.1.4

            i don't think anyone gives a penny as to what 'we' want.

            define 'we'.

            and please remember that arderns majority comes at the courtesy of national voters. Maybe the 'we' should be replaced by 'national' voters.

          • Chris 11.1.3.1.5

            Her time will come and it'll be sooner not later if she keeps towing the line.

  12. Grace Miller 12

    We need to write to the MPs and Tinetti most of all (minister of women AND internal affairs).

    As for the MPs pushing this shit, they need to STFU. Transing the gay away is the NEW conversion therapy! To not be able to talk to anyone about their gender confusion is obscene. 80% grow out of it if not constantly groomed. It's a men's right's movement disguised in a dress and the large numbers of girls wanting to opt out of womanhood should make people look deeper, the rise of porn, the demise of critical thinking instead we have inclusive niceness (fuck that bs), instead they're laughingly referring them to radical double mastectomys. #NeverKowtow

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  13. Adrian Thornton 13

    So it is looking more and more like the worlds press were co-opted (rather like the invasion of Iraq) into supporting a illegal military strike by the USA,the UK and France in Syria off the back of a OPCW (Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons) report that was intentionally tampered with to support claims of a Chemical gas attack in Douma in April 2018.

    Five former officials from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons have joined a group of prominent signatories to urge the OPCW to address the controversy surrounding its investigation of an alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma, Syria in April 2018.

    Statement of Concern: https://couragefound.org/2021/03/stat…​

    Sadly and unsurprisingly the worlds media who like well trained puppets went hysterical over the initial allegations and (doctored) OPCW report, with endless coverage and interviews on the subject…have now closed the wagons and remain silent..except one MSM show, Tucker Carlson, it is indeed a tragic position the so called Left (Liberals) have got themselves into that a reactionary rightwinger is the only person with a platform, who has shown the integrity to expose this conspiracy…where are Maddow, Kim Hill, RNZ now?…

    Liberal media is exposed yet again as being little more than pro war tools of power if that is what is expected of them…and yet they wring their hands constantly about the lack of trust in MSM. I doubt even Orwell couldn't have foreseen the absolute acquiescence to power that our media display.

  14. Adrian Thornton 14

    Email to RNZ….

    Good morning Kathryn,

    I seem to remember nine to noon doing quite a bit of coverage of the alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma, Syria in April 2018.

    I am sure you must be aware new information has surfaced around this incident, five ex OPCW officials (included the ex head of the OCPW José Bustani) and many others have recently co-signed a 'Statement of Concern' over the OPCW report that lead directly to the USA, UK and France bombing inside Syria.

    Statement of Concern: https://couragefound.org/2021/03/stat

    I suggest RNZ look into this new information, and inform the public of what you find there, and if needed correct any misinformation you might have unintentionally disseminated.

    Best
    Adrian

    • Brigid 14.1

      I admire your tenacity Adrian especially when some in an attempt to shut you up offer only criticism of the messengers.

      • Adrian Thornton 14.1.1

        Thanks I appreciate that, yes some of the locals make it pretty hard going on occasion, but I am not known for backing down from a just fight, especially when you know history is going to be on your side when the dust settles.

  15. greywarshark 15

    This isn't sweet to contemplate. After Covid19 and before the next epidemic, there will be diabetes arising from a population that has left many bereft of jobs at decent pay and prone to quick-fix hamburgers, calorie stoking alcohol and debilitation from drug social cohorts. Not a healthy nation, not 100% Pure. Love our people Labour and concentrate on being there for all the people for the basics, responding to what people say will help them.

    Sugar tax? Take a stiff drink if that is needed to help you steel yourself against the cries of businesspeople. I have just paid out large GST on repairs I had to get done to the house and you don't think twice about socking that hefty impost on ordinary people. So get with a sugar tax and other health requirements – using my GST – I will see something good arise because of my payments then.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/438448/numbers-with-type-2-diabetes-could-almost-double-in-two-decades-report

    …Each month, around 50 people lose a limb to the disease and New Zealand's current cost of treatment sits at more than $2.1 billion a year.

    A PwC report commissioned by Diabetes New Zealand, the university of Otago's Edgar Diabetes and Obesity Research Centre and Healthier Lives National Science Challenge, predicts things are set to get a lot worse.

    It claims the number of people with type 2 diabetes could rise by as much as 90 percent across the next two decades inflicting a "staggering" bill on taxpayers.

    • weka 15.1

      sugar tax is a blunt and unwieldy instrument that is only going to be useful alongside other, better approaches. Reduce poverty (including the housing crisis), take GST off fresh foods and things like whole grains and meat, do health promotion via helping people to garden and cook (those that want to). Do R and D to support healthy takeaways and easy to access food. Lead on societal change so that people aren't as stressed and have more time to eat healthy foods.

      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        Why not do something along with considering making other changes? I can't understand people who don't embrace the idea of small changes that make a start on improving something because it won't solve the whole problem. Take a laxative I say, if a person is constipated, and also eat more vegs and fibre in future. Just get things moving FGS!

        • weka 15.1.1.1

          the main political argument against sugar taxes is that it penalises poor people. They can't afford to buy healthy food, and with a sugar tax they are a) paying more proportionally than people who can afford healthy food, and b) are being made more poor. It's just not good strategy unless it's done alongside poverty reduction.

  16. Scud 16

    Going to be watching this tonight on telly here in Oz. Finally the rest of world are waking up to the 100% pure bullshit (sorry for the language) of NZ’s clean green image.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-16/new-zealand-rivers-pollution-100-per-cent-pure/13236174

    • Rosemary McDonald 16.1

      Just to get you in the mood Scud…(Actually not a bad ad as ads go, pity about the 100%BS tag.)

  17. Incognito 17

    New Zealand’s troubled waters

    New Zealand’s waterways are some of the most degraded in the developed world. Will the Ardern government clean it up or will the Maori take control?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-16/new-zealand-rivers-pollution-100-per-cent-pure/13236174

    Enjoy!

    • RedLogix 17.1

      Or the more complete quotation:

      And now Ngāi Tahu, New Zealand’s wealthiest Maori tribe, is launching an unprecedented legal case seeking “rangatiratanga”, or chieftainship, over most of the South Island’s freshwater, a move that could reset who has authority over the country’s waterways.

      • Incognito 17.1.1

        Or the more complete quotation:

        What do you mean by that?

        Is that a red flag for you RedLogix? Or something for you to support and celebrate?

        Why don’t you just spit it out; you’re usually not that shy or speak in riddles.

        • Adrian Thornton 17.1.1.1

          "What do you mean by that?….Why don’t you just spit it out; you’re usually not that shy or speak in riddles." man, and people call me touchy and aggresive, lol.

      • KJT 17.1.2

        Most likely a good thing.

        Maori Guardianship rather than Western "Take it before some other bugger does".

        • RedLogix 17.1.2.1

          Wet Liberal – Rangatiratanga = Guardianship

          Ethno Activist – Rangatiratanga = Ownership

          • Incognito 17.1.2.1.1

            Lazy Labeller – Bumper Sticker = Reality

            • RedLogix 17.1.2.1.1.1

              It's my experience that activists like using broad and soothing terms in public. Less so in private.

              But let's assume Ngai Tahu's good intentions for the time being.

  18. Sabine 18

    Question: how many people would need to shed the virus into the waste water for it to be a detected albeit 'weak'.

      • Sabine 18.1.1

        So how many people in Papatoetoe have covid to lead to a weak sample? Or where else could this positive waste water sample come from?

        • Incognito 18.1.1.1

          According to the FAQ, “our test is sensitive enough to discover approximately 10 cases in an area of 100,000 people”.

          How many people live in Papatoetoe?

      • Sabine 18.2.1

        this is from 2018

        43,599

        so then the idea that we have no community transmission is somewhat faulty. We either have a plague hotel out there and that accounts for the rise in shed virus in the waste water or we have people in the open public that is currently shedding virus.

        • Incognito 18.2.1.1

          Nope. Did you read either link?

          • Sabine 18.2.1.1.1

            i did, hence my questions.

            My understanding is that he virus needs to come from somewhere. So where is it coming from?

            • Incognito 18.2.1.1.1.1

              Ok, sorry.

              People who have been infected may continue to shed virus after they are no longer infectious. Published data suggests that this can continue for weeks after the initial illness.

              Therefore, how long shedding in faeces occurs in most of the COVID-19 cases in New Zealand is an unknown. What we do know is that this post infectious shedding by people will produce much lower levels of virus in faeces …

              • weka

                interesting. What's happening that the virus is still in the body for such a long time but not infectious? I get that viruses aren't technically alive, but are they still replicating, just not causing illness? Or they're still infectious just at much lower levels? Can't quite figure that out, as I think symptoms of viral illness are often driven by the body's response to the virus (haven't read about that and covid though) eg fever.

                • Incognito

                  Apparently, faecal sampling might be better in picking up asymptomatic cases than nose swabs. Shedding of virus in faeces is also longer. Since infection is thought to spread through tiny droplets in the air, faeces are safe unless you have brain fart 😉

                  BTW, shedding is the offspring of the virus; virus replication occurs inside a host cell. The shed virus particles can cause infection and also are the stuff that gets detected using our standard tests.

                  • Sabine

                    Waste water detection is done in the US a lot to control outbreaks in university dormitories. They lock the students in when it shows its face in the waste water. Hence why i ask. but then she'll be right until the next outbreak right?

  19. Rosemary McDonald 19

    The Ministry of Health might need to update their COVID-19: What to expect at your vaccination webpage to include, under "Side effects", "Enlarged lymph nodes in breast/ armpits."

    This advice was issued in February ,and there are various reports from minor media around the world. Some women are understandably very concerned. Swollen lymph nodes are mentioned in Pfizer's Consumer Medical information, but it does not specifically mention breast and armpit nodes. It should do.

    With the Astra Zeneca vaccine rollout currently suspended across Europe due to concerns about blood clots it behooves the vaccine manufacturers and purchasing governments to be certain they have fully informed potential recipients.

    I have never heard of a vaccine causing this particular side effect. I haven't seen swollen breast /armpit lymph nodes as a Covid 19 symptom either.

    • Incognito 19.1

      yes

      Yes, very good comment. It is not that rare a symptom either.

    • weka 19.2

      One of the things that concerns me is that it's really hard to know what is going on. I haven't had/made time to get as informed as I want to be (or as I will need to be once the government decides to open the borders and let covid in), so all I'm seeing are headlines that are somewhat alarming, comments like yours, PR from various health agencies, and 'trust us, we know what we are doing, it will all be fine' messaging from the science heads on social media. I think the situation is complex, and novel. We don't actually know what the deal is with covid or the vaccine yet. I'd prefer honesty around that.

      For countries like the UK and the US, it makes sense to me to risk side effects for the public health benefits of containing covid. But we're still not having the conversation about how the people with side effects will be looked after. You and I certainly don't trust the MoH, lol, although for somewhat different reasons I think. Mostly I think everyone is stressed to fuck, and we're doing really well under great pressure, but that doesn't mean things are at their best or that there aren't issues that need to be addressed (some urgently).

    • KJT 19.3

      Lymph nodes are part of your normal immune response.

      Swollen ones can happen with other vaccines as well. And, of course with actual viral/bacterial infection.

      The concern is because they can also be a sign of cancer and other problems.

      Expected with other vaccines as well.

      Swollen lymph nodes can be side effect of COVID-19 vaccine and confused for cancer, doctors say (ktvu.com)

      "It can also happen in response to other vaccines beyond COVID-19.

      "It’s actually sort of a good sign that your body is responding to this vaccine and creating those great antibodies to fight off COVID virus in the event that you ever come in contact with it," said Dr. Constance Lehman, chief of Breast Imaging at Massachusetts General Hospital".

  20. Corey Humm 21

    Re the violence against women post.

    As a gay man whose experienced violence, , sexual abuse and discrimination from men as well as women (on all counts ) and has always felt like an observer in society rather than a participant, I think posts and discussions about men that exclude men are counterproductive and cause more division and defensiveness than achieve anything positive.

    In my experience the men who get the most defensive about #notallmen are victims of sexual abuse who have been silenced, by society, which doesn't take male sex abuse victims seriously, it's extremely triggering as a victim of abuse to be lumped in with abusers on a personal and mental level, it makes you feel powerless.

    I remember at the hight of #metoo when men were coming out about sex abuse and men were told that it wasn't there moment , this is about women, instead of a teaching moment about all victims of sexual abuse it excluded the majority of victims voices from being heard and thus became a man v women thing. It excludes gay men, trans men, bi men, often trans women, non binary people , lesbians, women who have been victims of women and yes straight men.

    That sucks. It sucks because women deserve movements like this but men do too, I'm sorry but male sexual abuse isn't taken seriously, it just isn't. Add to the fact that the few studies that have been done about women abusing men and women abusing women sexually show it's actually pretty common, in most countries though it's not even against the law or seen as possible, which is infuriating when I was plyed with liquor and forced into a three way by two women who thought they could fix my sexuality, men and women I talked to about it laughed at me, and speaking to my straight friends women forcing themselves on women and men or being sexually violent is weirdly common but noone talks about it because it's just seen as a joke and a woman letting off steam and I know women hate this as much as men but when we talk about to each other it's always combative or seen as what aboutism, I feel the only way we'll ever get a societal change is by a genderless movement of all sexual abuse victims coming together and learn together as long as we exclude victims these movements will continue to come and go.

    These men that do this are not indicative of a majority of men, as a gay dude I know very well what it's like to be lumped in with sexual deviants (the old gay men are more likely to be child molesters trope still hasn't died out) and it makes ya really defensive, these aren't men, it's disturbed and mentally ill and disgusting individuals that we need to get better at identifying women and me should be able to walk the streets at night, it is not women's fault it is not the victims fault. It's the predators fault, it's the society that doesn't take these crimes seriouslys fault.

    It's not going to go away until all victims come together and again excluding male victims from the conversation and lumping them in with the abusers hasn't and won't achieve anything, it's just not,

    I'm probably going to be attacked for this post but I'm actually genuinely almost begging for whatever movement that comes next about sexual abuse to be inclusive not segregated because otherwise you are excluding gay men, trans men, often transwomen, bi men, non binary and yes straight men who bare the brunt of the abuse from the conversation and are simply talking to yourselves because those not included tune out and attack because we're being spoken at not heard, and in no way am I minimizing the violence and fear women have when out alone at night , I'm just shining a search light saying hey, we're here too, wanna be allies and get something done?

    • I Feel Love 21.1

      You're welcome and free to discuss anything here, and pretty much anywhere else on the planet, except this one post for women only. Get over it.

    • RedLogix 21.2

      Corey.

      Well I hear ya. Unfortunately as long as this discussion is locked into a 'critical theory oppressor vs oppressed' framework there isn't a lot that most men can safely say here.

      Best of luck though. Just writing it all out in detail helps a lot, even if no-one ever sees it.

    • Treetop 21.3

      It is so offensive to disempower anyone who has been sexually abused. Sexual abuse is a serious matter due to being an act of violence.

      I am a female incase you are not sure. I respect your view.

    • weka 21.4

      the thing I don't get is why men won't organise around this. And the trans/NB people. Then we can ally across the sectors.

      Women didn't get support or services handed to them. We went out and made it happen. Women set up Rape Crisis and Women's Refuge and ran them for many years without state sanctioning. When you see feminists being active out there in the world, that's women stepping up and making that happen. Why don't men do that too? Genuine question.

      One main reason that many women won't give up segregation and work with men on this is because there is a long history of women's needs being subsumed once men are involved. Having said that, there are women and men working on this. Maori tend to work together more. The non-violence work I've seen has involved men and women. Maybe check in with those groups and see what is being done and find a way of getting involved?

      The focus on male violence isn't saying that men are bad. It's saying that men as a class have a massive problem that needs a resolution. Violence *is gendered even if not all violence is done by men. Until men take responsibility for that and sort themselves out, we're at an impasse. By which I mean that men need to be addressing violence within their own class and coming up with solutions.

  21. greywarshark 22

    It employs just over 210 staff and has produced paper and packaging products, lately mostly for export, for more than 80 years.

    Its management said all staff would be made redundant, with most completing their roles by the end of June.

    The company would cease production on 21 June and then begin the decommissioning of the plant, with an expected final closure date of 30 June, it said.

    A number of options were being explored for both the plant and the site, but no decisions had yet been made.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/438499/whakatane-mill-to-close-in-june-all-staff-to-be-made-redundant

    Provincial Growth Fund – once was Shane Jones.

    Now six 'Surge' areas, one of which is Bay of Plenty which would incorporate Whakatane Mills. https://www.growregions.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Guide-to-the-Provincial-Growth-Fund.pdf

    We can prop up Rio Tinto, do the same for Whakatane and our newsprint. Save us from the dreaded shrinkage of life into the on-line dictatorship.

    • RedLogix 22.1

      A shameful nonsense alright. I actually worked in that plant back in the 80's for a period. I have great memories of the place.

      One of my tasks was to enter the big MG (Machine Glaze) dryer hood and take some surface samples from a high intensity Cesium 137 source to ensure it had not leaked. From memory it was around 80degC in this space. We had to go in there every six months and it entailed getting into an air cooled protective suit, and then with a colleague standing just outside and keeping you on a belay so they could haul you out, you had around 3 minutes to complete the test and get out.

      Usually I barely lasted 90 secs.

      Big amazing machines that most people never really see in action. Sad to see so much of it lost from NZ. Still the good news is that new industries are emerging all the time, I'm hearing good things from old colleagues back in NZ in the industrial automation sector about how busy they are.

      • greywarshark 22.1.1

        Great to hear an enginner's view. But that thing about automation – we will automate ourselves out of a life soon. That attitude of desiring efficiency and the other one of getting the fat out of the system, so to speak, and having a 'lean machine' will be the death knell to a community. Unless families live together and reduce expenses, on a small lifestyle block, and the workers will put their wages in to the family budget. Last century's ideas are no longer possible. Less jobs and you don't seem to register the effect on the whole population.

        • RedLogix 22.1.1.1

          A good question that I don't have a ready made answer for. In my observation automation is best thought of as an enabler of change rather than a killer of jobs. Certainly some old jobs do disappear, but others tend to arise on the back of the increased productivity.

          This is best seen when you consider the nature of work over the past 200 odd years of industrialisation. In 1820 the vast majority of men worked at hard labouring jobs, in fields, mines, ships, and warehouses. Most women laboured to keep households fed, clean and both the young and elderly cared for. Most jobs were highly physical, dangerous or dreary in the extreme.

          Compare with the modern world, consider how the vast majority of jobs simply didn't exist even just a few generations ago. And while many of us grizzle about being bored or detest the bullshit nature of many roles – there is simply no comparison with the kind of work our great-grandparents had to tolerate. Moreover industrialisation and automation mean that far more jobs are accessible to women outside of the household, greatly expanding their opportunities as never before.

          Seen from this broad perspective it looks like automation has generally expanded both the quantity and quality of work over long periods of time.

          But I accept at least two major proviso's. One is that when new technologies displace experienced workers, it's very hard for them to recover a new place in life. Especially older workers with experience and skills that are suddenly no longer needed. That's a shattering experience for many.

          The other is perhaps more speculative, but just because more industrialisation and automation has so far produced more and better work for most people, it doesn't necessarily follow that this will always be the case. Maybe there is some critical point where the sheer capacity of new automation and AI assisted tech simply overwhelms our capacity to find new roles for humans?

          I honestly don't know the answer to this – but if it helps I'm reasonably confident that we're not close to such a tipping point. Despite all the hype, most automation at present is still pretty dumb, doing very basic, repetitive tasks that typically bore humans witless anyway. People are still very much at the centre of all enterprises, not the machines. Not yet anyway.

          This is a bit of a corporate advert, full of well aged marketing bumpf, but it does give a taste for real world automation capabilities from one of the big global vendors. You'll note there are still plenty of people in the mix, but all are educated and professional. Blue collar need not apply – and this is definitely a social challenge we haven't yet talked about much. Also note that this brand new facility is located in the USA – not China. Automation means there is little competitive advantage in cheap labour anymore.

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