Open mike 16/12/2022

42 comments on “Open mike 16/12/2022 ”

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1. Jimmy 1

   16 December 2022 at 8:24 am

   Whoever came up with this idea (be it Ardern or Seymour) has come up with a winner! Well done whichever side it was.

   Jacinda Ardern, David Seymour to raise money for ‘pricks’ – prostate cancer charity – NZ Herald

   Everyone having a sleep in this morning? Usually a few comments by now.
   • weka 1.1

     16 December 2022 at 9:39 am

     Micky wrote a post about it,

     .https://thestandard.org.nz/much-ado-about-nothing-3/
     • Jimmy 1.1.1

       16 December 2022 at 9:57 am

       Yes just read it. I don't think his post was up when I commented else I would have commented there.
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         16 December 2022 at 10:02 am

         probably not, all good.
       • Incognito 1.1.1.2

         16 December 2022 at 10:16 am

         Post went up at 8:01 am; you commented at 8:24 am. You should have had a sleep in as well
         • Jimmy 1.1.1.2.1

           16 December 2022 at 11:05 am

           Yes you're probably right, I obviously didn't realise from the article heading it was about the comment. We all make mistakes, even prime ministers do.
           • Incognito 1.1.1.2.1.1

             16 December 2022 at 12:42 pm

             Yeah, I’m probably right about those facts that you can probably check for yourself.

             The slightly delusional attempt at comparing with the PM falls over miserably on the grounds of self-correction and adaptive behaviour (aka learning from experience), for example.
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.2.2

           16 December 2022 at 12:22 pm

           I've noticed recently I am sometimes seeing old versions of the standard page, until I do a refresh. This is after opening a new browser. I didn't used to have to do this. Not running cache (either my local one or…?) same as it used to.

           Firefox on android
           • Incognito 1.1.1.2.2.1

             16 December 2022 at 12:31 pm

             Not too sure whether your issue is the same, but this recent thread might shed some light on it: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-12-2022/#comment-1925299.
           • Jimmy 1.1.1.2.2.2

             16 December 2022 at 12:50 pm

             Yes has happened to me also. I started making a comment in open mike then seeing it was actually the day before open mike
           • mikesh 1.1.1.2.2.3

             16 December 2022 at 3:09 pm

             I have been experiencing the same problem. Having been struck down by covid, I am self isolating in my bedroom and accessing the internet using a raspberry pi running xubuntu. As soon as I started I had an upgrade of firefox.
2. Anker 2

   16 December 2022 at 8:42 am

   • Yes, it was fantastic to see David S and Jacinda come together to make use of a situation that could have become more inflamed.
   • it’s a great model of how to resolve such issues. A making lemonade out of lemons for the benefit of raising awareness about a health issue.
   • Heartening. A lovely way to end the year. Both Jacinda and David left their egos at the door for the greater good.
   • woodart 2.1

     16 December 2022 at 3:11 pm

     if seymour left his ego at the door, what came in? dust?
3. Anker 3

   16 December 2022 at 9:15 am

   https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/12/15/workers-now/

   Great to see a real left wing workers party form, Workers Now.

   I particularly like their policy of preserving women only spaces such as change rooms, prisons and sporting competitions
   • Tiger Mountain 3.1

     16 December 2022 at 10:14 am

     Some good broad policy points in there I can agree with…but needs some attention to detail to put it mildly.

     “No income tax on welfare benefits or incomes below $80,000.” dismisses Workers Now credibility immediately.
     • Sabine 3.1.1

       16 December 2022 at 12:17 pm

       why?

       this is what they say!
       “””5. Fund these public works through progressive income tax and profit taxes on big businesses. No income tax on welfare benefits or incomes below $80,000.”””

       because it would benefit the working poor?

       Why should a beneficiary pay income tax? Why not actually make a part of income tax free. Like the first 25000 – 35000 $ – the money that you need for rent?

       And keep in mind that you actually pay GST on anything you buy. Which by the way should really please Grant Robertson as with any and every price increase his GST take goes up. Don’t say inflation ain’t good for something while you buy that 15 $ broccoli because you have not eaten anything green in a month.

       I mean we could tax those that earn over 150.000 a whole lot more to offset that. And if people keep more of their pay it would reduce their need for benefits such as food grants, emergency benefits, housing allowances etc etc etc as most of these would/are income related.
       • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1.1

         16 December 2022 at 1:56 pm

         Have you ever read any previous comments I have made on The Standard Sabine?

         –if you had you might have discerned that I am anti capitalist, anti imperialist, have a marxist world view, am pro union, an active union supporter, and have advocated for beneficiaries.

         I included one line to show that more thought needs to go into the Workers Now programme. Of course beneficiaries should not pay tax, they do pay a token amount at the moment.
         • Sabine 3.1.1.1.1

           16 December 2022 at 2:18 pm

           Please point to the 'token' tax burden that are levied against people on a benefit. You can't, as there is none. They pay full taxes as does everyone else, and one of the reasons they are doing it hard is that they are charged the same amount on their meager earnings as is someone who earns well in the top income bracket. You will see the different tax levels for your convenience. Take it as a refresher course on how taxes are levied in NZ.

           It does not matter where your 14 Grand or less come from they are taxed a full 10.5 %. What ever is left over then is generally taxed at 15% GST when people start spending money, and if you put a dollar in your savings account and you get a fraction of a penny in interest that too is taxed in full.

           So yes, I am quite happy that this new Party has thrown the gauntlet at the feet of the left. Pick it up, run with it.

           $14,000 or less	SB	10.5%
           Between $14,001 and $48,000	S	17.5%
           Between $48,001 and $70,000	SH	30%
           Between $70,001 and $180,000	ST	33%
           Over $180,000	SA	39%
           • Sabine 3.1.1.1.1.1

             16 December 2022 at 2:31 pm

             tax information from here

             https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/income-tax-for-individuals/tax-codes-and-tax-rates-for-individuals/tax-codes-for-individuals
           • Ed1 3.1.1.1.1.2

             16 December 2022 at 2:44 pm

             Sabine, we have quite a complex system, and what may appear simple could have unintended consequences. If a certain level of income was free of tax, that would benefit all who earn above that amount, but may also mean that benefits for example would be lower as no tax would be levied. Then what happens when someone gets a part time job – how much should they pay and how much benefit should they lose? some of the effective highest marginal tax rates apply to those who are having a benefit reduced as they earn more – it can result in quite a small proportion of earnings from part time work getting through to the worker.

             So making benefits tax free my mean a lot of other changes, and some real complexity for those able to earn a small amount, and perhaps also benefitting most those who have higher earnings.

             Some countries do have a level of earnings that is tax free – they are not necessarily wrong, but low earners and beneficiaries are not necessarily worse off here.
             • Sabine …

               16 December 2022 at 10:31 pm

               good grief, the point that i was making is that beneficiaries are taxed the normal rate as the government considers their benefits income.

               Nothing complex about that unless one really really does not want to see the obvious. someone who barely gets enough to pay rent and maybe food or rent and electricity, who can't afford a dentist without an emergency grant – again income and taxed, who is at the bottom of this country in regards to financial mobility is paying he same amount of tax on the first 14000 or less then the dude that brings home gazillions and thanks to good accountants only ends up declaring and paying tax on 70.000 $.

               I mean we could do something, but we can also just pretend that not taxing the pennies that this or any other government throws at the poorest of this country would not make a difference.

               And the idea that if soemthing where to happen at the bottom of the income it would benefit the richest. Good grief. Who gives a fuck. Like seriously who gives a fuck that every single one in parliament would not have to pay the 10.5 cents to the dollar if the first 14 grand were tax free.

               This is where your do nothing government, and lefty attitude leaves you.

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300238241/more-than-40-of-millionaires-paying-tax-rates-lower-than-the-lowest-earners-government-data-reveals

               With the richest paying less taxes then some of our poorest. Cause they can afford accountants that will find any legal loophole granted to them by the law makers to not pay taxes.

               We can have three water, co-governance, men to self id as women, castrated sterilized kids in the name of kindness, but we can not have the first few thousand dollars tax free to maybe make it just a smidgen easier on those that only have these few thousand dollar in earnings. For shame.
     • mikesh 3.1.2

       16 December 2022 at 3:18 pm

       If incomes <$80,000 became tax free then such incomes would, I think, have to become non deductible, otherwise the government would be losing too much revenue. Employers, to remain solvent, would then have to either reduce wages or increase prices.
4. Incognito 4

   16 December 2022 at 9:35 am

   Self-deluded tool congratulates himself on scoring own goals. His minders should ask for a pay-rise and Christmas bonus.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/130782661/wayne-browns-knack-for-raining-on-his-own-parade
   • Robert Guyton 4.1

     16 December 2022 at 9:48 am

     "raining on his own parade"

     Shoes, rather.
     • Incognito 4.1.1

       16 December 2022 at 9:52 am

       trickle down, rather.
5. Incognito 5

   16 December 2022 at 11:07 am

   A nice write-up on that recent nuclear fusion break-through experiment that made waves on the internet.

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/building-a-star-on-earth-our-quest-for-fusion-energy
   • Tiger Mountain 5.1

     16 December 2022 at 12:11 pm

     Yes, very interesting, popular science journalism in action. I follow various cosmology and astronomy/space podcasts, they are a nice change from politics, and show how much our species is actually capable of.
6. Stephen D 6

   16 December 2022 at 11:09 am

   When even Bryce Edwards is querying your leader and strategy, you know knives are being sharpened.

   https://democracyproject.nz/2022/12/16/bryce-edwards-national-is-failing-to-inspire-voters/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bryce-edwards-national-is-failing-to-inspire-voters

   ”However, the extremely low voter turnout really does need to be considered when evaluating National’s success. According to the Electoral Commission, the eligible voting population in Hamilton West is about 57,211. Therefore, 14,392 votes is a turnout of only about 25 per cent. (Some news reports suggest a higher turnout figure, but they’re failing to include the number of eligible voters in Hamilton West who weren’t enrolled.)”
   • Tiger Mountain 6.1

     16 December 2022 at 12:28 pm

     Hopefully the low Ham West turnout was by-election malaise related and will not be repeated at the General.

     What the grey beard and perma tan pundits seem to miss is that we are in the midst of a generational roll over, which will see new gen voters in the majority over boomers, certainly by 2026.

     The Natzos may want to be in the 40s, and they may want NZ Labour to be in the 20s or preferably nowhere…but, a result similar to the US midterms is on the cards (months of media predictions of a red tsunami that did not happen). Local equivalent=Mike Hosking says Labour is gone–but Labour/Greens/MP form a Govt. after votes counted!
   • Ad 6.2

     16 December 2022 at 1:46 pm

     Bryce missed that National managed to score a progressive, qualified Maori leader to the position.

     Prior to Bolger's reign this was an exceeding rare occurrence in National, and Labour really missed out not only on the vote but also on an inspiring candidate.
     • Tiger Mountain 6.2.1

       16 December 2022 at 2:02 pm

       Progressive? he came across as an arrogant motor mouth, during the one interview I heard on RNZ. Any Māori or working class person associated with the Natzos is with the wrong party imo given the material reality of NZ National’s record in Government.
       • Ad 6.2.1.1

         16 December 2022 at 3:16 pm

         That's for Maori to decide.

         Pretty similar corrosion of Labour base in the Indian community, from the same by-election.
   • Sabine 6.3

     16 December 2022 at 2:45 pm

     If National failed to 'inspire' voters while winning, what did Labour do to lose? Repulse voters?

     The sad thing really at this time is that National has got to do absolutely nothing to inspire anyone, they just have to not be Labor.
7. SPC 7

   16 December 2022 at 11:29 am

   University students in Edinburgh prevented the showing a documentary, coz its hate speech.

   The Streisand effect is named named after American singer and actress Barbra Streisand, whose attempt to suppress the California Coastal Records Project's photograph of her cliff-top residence in Malibu, California, taken to document California coastal erosion, inadvertently drew greater attention to the photograph in 2003.

   An image of a large house on a cliff top … tall poppy …

   https://twitter.com/rorybowman/status/1603475113294581760
   • SPC 7.1

     16 December 2022 at 11:31 am

     I wonder if they are looking at a 3rd series of Clique …
8. Ad 8

   16 December 2022 at 12:24 pm

   Ari Melber at MSNBC does a really good job comparing the weak and slow response to holding Trump and other political backers to account for his coup, against the swift and effective responses by Courts and Police forces in Peru and Germany for near-identical state overthrow efforts.

   (506) Coup Bomb Goes Off: Foreign Arrests Show Peril For Trump – YouTube
   • Macro 8.1

     16 December 2022 at 3:04 pm

     But! But! He's a supa hero don't cha know!

     https://twitter.com/JohnKiriakou/status/1603422816015097860?cxt=HHwWiICx1cmjwMAsAAAA
     • joe90 8.1.1

       16 December 2022 at 6:35 pm

       An ideal way to hide foreign income sources. The identities of the buyers of worthless tat forever shrouded in a labyrinth of corporates, shell companies and legalese.

       https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1603448427022585856

       Trump's Trading Card Grift is Worse than You Think

       Shell companies, rubbing elbows with international criminals, and worse in his scam of scams

       […]

       Funny, yes. But it is far, far worse than you think. And to understand why, we have to begin tracing the web of corporations involved in producing these worthless digital cards. They lead to some sleazy places.

       https://threats.substack.com/p/trumps-trading-card-grift-is-worse
9. Stephen D 9

   16 December 2022 at 2:58 pm

   More interesting reading about what’s going on in Iran.

   https://daily.jstor.org/irans-protest-culture/?utm_term=Read%20More&utm_campaign=jstordaily_12152022&utm_content=email&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=email

   ”At the same time, it is important to recognize that today’s protests are not entirely unique in the context of Iranian history. They are firmly rooted in a century-old tradition of collective action against authoritarianism—a tradition which created “one of the most robust protest cultures in the world,” as Reza Aslan writes in An American Martyr in Persia: The Epic Life and Tragic Death of Howard Baskerville, set during the 1905-1911 Persian Constitutional Revolution.”
   • Ad 9.1

     16 December 2022 at 3:18 pm

     You would have to go back to Darius The Great to find a similar scale of authoritarian repression to what Iran have now, with similar levels of executions.

     This ain't Mee Too. This is another Arab Spring.
     • Stephen D 9.1.1

       16 December 2022 at 4:00 pm

       Which didn’t end so well.
10. Johnr 10

    16 December 2022 at 4:39 pm

    Why can't I access all the entries. When I call it up I only get the first entry of the day. Happened 3 days so far. I'm old so be kind if I'm messing up

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