Open Mike 16/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2017 - 95 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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Step up to the mike …

95 comments on “Open Mike 16/10/2017 ”

  1. Ed 1

    ‘A former New Zealand First MP wants the party to back Labour – saying a large number of voters clearly want change and a decision must account for the party’s long-term survival.

    Pita Paraone, who served as an MP from 2002 until 2008, and from 2014 until this election, has on the eve of a final NZ First meeting to decide the next Government thrown his support behind a deal with Labour.

    “Personally, I feel the winds of change,” he told the Herald. “I think the decision they must make is one that will also ensure the future of New Zealand First. And I think one of the things they have got to consider is people quite clearly want change.”

    Paraone said while National was easily the biggest party, a majority of voters didn’t support it. ‘

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11933255

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc) 2

    You couldn’t make this stuff up!

    A porn mogul offers a big reward to get a pussy grabber removed from office!

    Comedy gold!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2017/10/LarryFlyntAd.pdf?tid=a_inl

  3. I respect the right to comment here is not a given and over the years I’ve sometimes got angry enough to say bye bye to this community.

    We imo don’t have enough voices from women and we know this can be unsafe commenting environment for women because that is what they have told us.

    I am more than disturbed that Tracey said she is leaving. I hope that doesn’t happen, I really do. You are wanted and needed here Tracey – Kia kaha!

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15102017/#comment-1400670

    • Andre 3.2

      Yes, that was a seriously disturbing thread. And it wasn’t Tracey’s part in it that upsets me.

    • Carolyn_nth 3.3

      Seriously!

      If RL’s moderator bold comment is allowed to stand, and Tracey goes, I’m gone too.

      I have no actual knowledge of RL’s off line experience with women. And I agree with Tracey’s last comment about my own experiences with women and men. Relationships can be very angst ridden and painful, but that doesn’t mean all our painful experiences are part of gendered abuse of power.

      The issue is about power on and off the TS, and is part of a pattern that is very gendered throughout society.

      See for instance this Newsroom article today about the context for gendered power relationships in NZ’s film industry. It is in this context that powerful men sexually harass and abuse women, and then use their power to restrict the careers of non-compliant women (and sometimes men).

      There is widespread use of (usually young) women in the film industry as a decorative accompaniment to powerful men (of various ages) on and off the screen. Sometimes men are used this way, too – and there is a particularly strong use of this power to control women (and men) of colour. In this way, masculine dominance is continually maintained.

      All I have seen from RL on gender issues are comments trying to control the discussion of gender on TS to support his own stated interests. It is very much controlling behaviour, that tends to derail and undermine women’s statements of their experiences of sexual harassment and abuse. And when women have failed to comply, RL pulls out his moderator status – which seems to be higher than Tracey’s.

      Ban me for commented thus, if you will. All I am seeing in such TS discussions of gender, in the final instance, supports a hierarchical masculine dominance – with a small number of men with most power.

      Thanks for the support from men like marty mars, and for pointing out the moderation in the linked comment.

      • miravox 3.3.1

        “All I have seen from RL on gender issues are comments trying to control the discussion of gender on TS to support his own stated interests. It is very much controlling behaviour, that tends to derail and undermine women’s statements of their experiences of sexual harassment and abuse. And when women have failed to comply, RL pulls out his moderator status – which seems to be higher than Tracey’s.”

        ^^^ This.

        and it’s really disappointing that RL effectively removes women from this site because he doesn’t like the way the debate is going.

      • Karen 3.3.2

        +1 Carolyn.

        And thanks for your support Marty.

      • Gristle 3.3.3

        I agree that RL action of putting in comments as a moderator is exploiting a power imbalance between him and Tracey.

        This behaviour needs to be acknowledged and stop.

      • Bill 3.3.4

        For what it’s worth, I genuinely value the contributions you make Carolyn_nth. And I’d very much like if that continued to be the case.

      • RedLogix 3.3.5

        Oh grow up. I’ve explained several times quite clearly that I did the bold comment simply to make a clear reply. In a fast moving thread it’s very easy for people to miss things, get the timing and sequencing mixed up, talking at cross-purposes.

        Nor was there anything unusual in doing this; I can point to many other examples of the same sort of thing done by others. Bolding type does not automatically mean moderation; it’s just a convention to get people’s attention.

        Nor can anyone point to any place where I have attempted to control the conversation. That is utterly crazy. If anything I went out of my way to respond to everyone with a reasoned discussion and treated you all with complete respect. At no point was anyone told they ‘could not say something’. At no point did I use moderation to limit or direct anything anyone said.

        The sole and specific point that I did make a stand on was just that … categorically in a decade of being here I have been scrupulous to be as even-handed as possible, and to avoid mis-using moderation to control the content of the debate. Being accused of that twice by tracey is a direct personal attack on a moderator, and on a personal value that is really important to me … and I made a clear specific warning to her not to repeat it. Still if she wants to throw her toys out of the cot because of a simple warning … that is absolutely her right to respond as suits her.

        Also when other moderators have in my view misused moderation in the past, I have been very careful to not to attack them in public. I’ve either remained silent or ensured they were not undermined.

        Given this was the first time in probably 18 months that I’ve said anything significant on a topic that is important to me …. for reasons many of you understand perfectly well … it’s just not tenable to suggest I’m trying to control any kind of discussion.

        Nor are there any rational grounds to claim to suggest I am undermining or derailing women’s very real and legitimate interests here. Pointing out that the misuse of power by bullies and predators has many and varied contexts in no way subtracts or diminishes from what women are saying. If anything it adds and reinforces their case; if anything it demonstrates that both genders have a shared interest in addressing the root causes and understandings, if anything I would have expected women to welcome men engaging honestly and openly around their experiences and perspectives. But no; not welcome at all apparently.

        But I’m under no illusion this will change anything. I understand exactly why everyone will continue to hate me for saying this, and the sly snarks and deniable personal attacks will just escalate from here. tracey said at one point that ‘this was all about me’. Sure … you made it so when you attacked me personally rather than addressing the content of pretty much anything I was saying.

        For instance I referenced at least three interesting articles and some very good work by researcher David Lisak. Not a peep in response, total silence. No actual debate, just emotive claims of ‘derailing’ and “MRA politics’ and the like. Dismissing any discussion of how men might feel about all this, demeaning it as ‘childish me too’ in order to erase and control male voices is a pretty transparent ploy.

        In my view TS has fallen well off the pace in this topic; we’ve gotten locked into a stale confrontational debate when there are plenty of balanced and sane voices elsewhere moving making much the same case I am. (Just usually with more research, finesse and eloquence.)

        Still as weka and others have clearly stated; they would clearly prefer that any masculine perspective (and emphatically this is not the same thing as speaking for all people with male genitals) should be silenced. And out of respect for my fellow authors and moderators, and because this topic clearly causes far too much disruption … I commit to absolutely never saying anything on any gendered topic ever again.

        Note: I’ve made this comment without being logged in so as it’s perfectly clear I’m not moderating or bolding anything.

        • Antoine 3.3.5.1

          Sounds like a wise decision.

          So does your threat to ban Tracey still hold?

          A.

          • RedLogix 3.3.5.1.1

            It was not a threat; it was a very specific and clear warning (again perfectly normal practise) not to repeat a false claim that I was misusing moderation to ‘bully her into silence’.

            As far as I’m concerned it’s yesterday’s thread and in the past. I’ve made my case and I’m leaving it there; so clearly the warning has expired.

        • marty mars 3.3.5.2

          I think you should take some time out. Your comments on that thread were unacceptable imo. Even today you are still trying to bully people. You don’t want to listen just browbeat people with your well understood views, after all this isn’t the first or second time this has happened is it.

          I put this up so Tracey would know she is supported and needed as a commenter and you are once again making it all about you.

          I also am sorry you are in so much pain – i hope it is sorted for you sooner rather than later.

          • RedLogix 3.3.5.2.1

            Tracey and others made it ‘all about me’ by attacking me personally, rather than addressing the content. I can’t change that now; I’m merely responding just as you are completely entitled to.

            And I note that as with every person replying to me, you ALL gang up to express outrage at what I am saying, venting emotion all over me … but not no-one has attempted any consistent explanation why. It’s not very impressive.

            But really that has to be it. As I said I’ve committed not to comment on gendered issues again and if you would allow this conversation to wrap up with mutual dignity that would be appreciated.

            • marty mars 3.3.5.2.1.1

              It will wrap up when EVERYONE who wants to say something has the opportunity to say it imo. That is respectful dignity for all.

              • RedLogix

                OK everyone form a queue here and vent on RL.

                Fortunately it’s a nice day outside.

                Cheers

                • Ok i’ll make this my last comment to you on this for today.

                  Your ego and bullshit has undermined the months of work that has gone on to create a safer commenting environment for women here imo. Even now you are attacking people with ‘grow up’ lines. Imo you should be saying sorry to everyone especially women contributors and commenters but you appear to think you are the aggrieved party, that it’s you who have been hurt and misheard. It isn’t.

                  I have really been working hard not to allow my anger at your attitudes to flow through to the keyboard and have treated you with respect. Pity you cannot do that for others.

            • Karen 3.3.5.2.1.2

              “Tracey and others made it ‘all about me’ by attacking me personally.”

              The opposite is true RL. You are obviously in pain and I am sorry about that. However, although that explains your bullying behaviour yesterday, it does not excuse it IMO. I realise that you have had to develop various coping mechanisms to deal with things that have happened to you in the past, but maybe it is time you spent some time reflecting on why your comments yesterday were upsetting to many of us.

            • Sam aka clump 3.3.5.2.1.3

              Wah! Wah! Wah!

              [r0b: Is that really a helpful contribution?]

              • Sam aka clump

                Its the job of intellectuals to make things look complicated. I just don’t see a justification for it. When you go looking for people with more problems than than yourself with the aim of coming up with big long words and evidence of models that only a few seem to understand – it always ends in tears.

                Maybe a vent in the shower or a walk. But seriously. Let me ask you a question. Was the online friendship (if you can call it that) going to end any other way?

          • Anne 3.3.5.2.2

            I think you should take some time out.

            Fair enough marty but I think there were one or two other commenters yesterday who perhaps could also benefit from a brief bit of time out. I interpreted RL’s intentions quite differently from the rest of you – maybe because I can fully empathise with his experience. It was Open Mike after all and unlike a dedicated post… commenters are free to post on any topic they wish from any angle they choose. Perhaps it was an unwise decision of RL’s to contribute, but imo his views were as relevant as anyone else’s and therefore were deserving of more respect.

            • marty mars 3.3.5.2.2.1

              Well i always read your comments with an open mind Anne because we are often in alignment. Thank you for your feedback.

            • weka 3.3.5.2.2.2

              Whatever the issues are with Red’s politics and how he expresses them, there’s also the issue of how he used his moderating powers yesterday. That resulted in TS losing an author, which we really can’t afford. We also can’t afford to lose the few women authors we have and each time this happens it gets that much harder to encourage women to write here. IMO this applies to comments too. It’s a big issue for the site, and very disappointing to see this playing out yet again.

            • Andre 3.3.5.2.2.3

              I think it was the wrong place for the subject. Had it been made as a new thread in Open Mike – something like “…with all the recent attention about men harassing women, we should keep in mind it’s a subset of a wider problem of gender power dynamics and bullying…” maybe it wouldn’t have gone off the rails so badly. As it was, to me it definitely came across as a male bullying females in a thread about the problem of males abusing power over females.

            • Andrea 3.3.5.2.2.4

              Thanks, Anne. There are some fem posters here who come across as quite intimidating. A rapid reversion to doctrine and denigration seems to be a common ploy to close down divergent comment.

              Clear instances of ‘tin ear’ and follies in comprehension. Humility might help.

              For those on the receiving end – know they won’t listen to any other side, or cut any slack at all. Like the Red Queen: ‘Off with his head!’

              Sweet reason is wasted. Just walk away. You don’t have to play with the handmaidens of Kali Maa.

        • joe90 3.3.5.3

          . Pointing out that the misuse of power by bullies and predators has many and varied contexts in no way subtracts or diminishes from what women are saying.

          Mate, that’s exactly what it does when you insert yourself and your whataboutism, by casting a fucking big shadow over any discussion about the abuse of women.
          .

    • JanM 3.5

      I think the thing that grated on me the most that Tracey rightly got upset about was the ‘me too’ that often pops up from a few men whenever we try to have a serious discussion about the problems women have with power imbalance and abuse. I can remember this happening a lot in the 60s/70s and consciously or not, it serves to derail a topic that needs serious consideration.
      The ‘me too’ commenters act like spoilt children. If there is a significant issue about the treatment of men by women, and this exercises them, then they need to be grown-ups and start their own discussion, not hang on the coat tails of the women who have the courage to speak up.Hopefully most of us will listen with open hearts and minds and not go into ‘me too’ mode.
      Stay with us, Tracey, and we will hopefully support you better next time – and don’t you go, either, Carolyn nth – kia kaha, kia kotahi!

      • greywarshark 3.5.1

        I think the thing that grates me about the modern feminist reaction to ‘me too’ from men, is that many women seem to want to wallow in the wrongs they personally receive, pay a little attention to those suffered by women in other countries/religions as if that makes them all sisters, an refer to the ongoing maltreatment of women in wars and conflicts, and don’t have anyconcern left for the rest of hu-man-ity.

        It’s ‘Get out of my wallow, and find one of your own’. You are all at fault and we take precedence in bemoaning being victimised by the enormity of lack of respect and empathy for each other, lack of human kindness to each other, and lack of personal integrity in attempting to improve oneselves even to just adopting the simple ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’.

        • JanM 3.5.1.1

          I’ve had several tries at answering this, but have come to the conclusion that your use of the emotive ‘wallow’ tends to suggest that you are emoting rather than replying in a way that shows that you have understood what I said.

    • Antoine 3.6

      Tracey should stay. Just because RL is annoying is no reason to leave.

      A.

      PS It is not at all obvious to me that giving mods the power to “ban at will” actually makes the Standard a better place

    • Bill 3.7

      Thanks for sign-posting marty.

      To whoever…I’ve taken the liberty of quickly editing those comments, but I’ve no idea if it cleans anything up a bit or whether I’ve just knocked a bucket over an already soggy mess.

      Time will tell.

    • weka 3.8

      Thanks marty and everyone for speaking up about this. It’s very helpful to have that support especially for the women authors and commenters. What happened yesterday wasn’t ok, and the more people that point this out the better.

      • RedLogix 3.8.1

        In the past you have done a number of things that in my opinion were ‘not ok’, but I was careful not to undermine you in public about it.

      • marty mars 3.8.2

        Thanks weka. And a special kia kaha to you because I have seen the improvements here to create safe spaces for women to comment (still need to sort that for Māori but that will happen I think) and I appreciate that so much.

        • weka 3.8.2.1

          cheers marty. I also think if we can sort the issues for women writers and commenters it will open the way for improvements for Māori too.

          • rhinocrates 3.8.2.1.1

            I’m glad I missed yesterday.

            Bion of Borysthenes, as cited by Plutarch:

            “Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, yet the frogs do not die in sport but in earnest.”

            Clearly this is not ‘sport’, but the point Bion makes is that one’s intentions are not sufficient excuse for one’s actions. One must try to empathise with the recipient and that means understanding that they will perceive things differently from oneself.

            A woman’s reaction to her treatment has to be understood in relation to her lifetime experience as a woman, so listen to what she has to say about why she feels as she does.

            This a problem endemic to the left – that certain spokesmen think of themselves as the default for human experience – Trotter is particularly egregious on this – and denigrate ‘identity politics’ as a ‘distraction’ from their needs. The right are proud of this blindness, but sadly much of the left is in denial about it’s own flaws.

            (It’s a lesson Plunkett could learn too about his ‘social experiment’.)

            …so please stay Tracey.

    • Stuart Munro 3.9

      Yes. Please stay Tracy.

  4. Cinny 4

    After listening to three interviews with bill english he dosen’t seem very upbeat or happy at all. Trying not to read anything in to it, but he seems to have an air of defeat around him.

    • ianmac 4.1

      And yet English has that fixed grin on all day and night probably as well. A bit of Key lesson?
      Except it doesn’t really work for me.

      • Cinny 4.1.1

        Miss Twelve pointed out to me that he kept looking away from the camera on TVNZ

        Mum why is he looking to the left all the time?
        Why do you think he is darling?
        She replies…. Well I know that some people look away when they aren’t being honest or are nervous.

        Later on she asks… Mum what’s up with the chippy shortage?
        Climate Change darling…. then go on to tell her about the rain, she grows potatoes.
        Mum why aren’t they talking more about Climate Change instead of making jokes about chips?

        Two good points from Miss Twelve

        • Quokka 4.1.1.1

          Cinny, please give my best wishes to Miss (Ms ?) Twelve.

        • ianmac 4.1.1.2

          Yes Miss Twelve. And we were all lead to believe in Honest Bill. Ha!
          We only have a tiny section so this year I happen to be growing potatoes in buckets. I drilled holes for drainage and have 12 seed potatoes throwing healthy foliage upwards. Might beat the shortage yet.

        • Adrian 4.1.1.3

          Climate change? Really, 25% more rain in a particular month is evidence of climate change, that’s weather, a completely normal natural process.

    • NewsFlash 4.2

      My thoughts too when I saw him again tonight, I suspect he thinks Peters is taking the piss, guilty conscience if he’s got one.

  5. Quokka 5

    The medical profession officially recognised “burnout” in Hawai’i today – originally the point in time and trajectory when missile fuel combustion exhausts reserves, popularized as applying to humans in caring professions by Maslach in the 60’s.

    It will be interesting how scribes construct the implications of even more capable missile technology today – capable of reaching Hawai’i and California from Pyongyang – as if emergency services there did not already have enough to do.

    Hippocrates wrote some time ago “above all, do no harm”. The voice of experience ..

    Sun Tzu would doubtless agree.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_California_wildfires

    • Been reading about the effects of EMP after a nuclear detonation , – that in itself is alarming,… there was an article about a nuclear device detonated saying some 249 miles in the atmosphere would knock out most of the electrical grid in the continental US , and parts of Mexico and much of Canada. Civil society would close down rapidly , and the military / rapid response services would be denied any coordinated ability’s.

      And Nth Korea has announced this capacity with its nukes. Amazing , – and alarming , that a smallish country like that could in theory , so easily take down a behemoth like the USA.

      • Cinder 5.1.1

        You may want to have a read of these links, especially the Popular Mechanics article for the source of such claims.

        “Back to The Hill article, which claims an EMP attack by North Korea would kill “9 of 10 Americans by starvation and societal collapse.” The first clue that something is amiss with this claim is that, if you trace the link provided in the article, it cites the words of Congressman Roscoe Bartlett, who describes a novel he had read called One Second After. Bartlett says:

        “I read a prepublication copy of a book called One Second After. I hope it does get published; I think the American people need to read it. It was the story of a ballistic missile EMP attack on our country. The weapon was launched from a ship off our shore, and then the ship was sunk so that there were no fingerprints. The weapon was launched about 300 miles high over Nebraska, and it shut down our infrastructure countrywide. The story runs for a year. It is set in the hills of North Carolina. At the end of the year, 90 percent of our population is dead; there are 25,000 people only still alive in New York City. The communities in the hills of North Carolina are more lucky: only 80 percent of their population is dead at the end of a year.”

        Bartlett was so spooked by this novel that after he left Congress he moved into the woods and became a survivalist, where he spends his days “cutting logs, tending gardens and painting walls.” And just to be clear, the claim that North Korea could kill 90 percent of the American people was directly pulled from a science fiction novel.”

        http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a25883/north-korea-cant-kill-ninety-percent-of-americans/

        The US test “Starfish Prime” is the one referenced in terms of EMP effects and was a yield of roughly 1.4 Mt.
        North Korea’s best yield to date is perhaps 250 kt, and it is believed the reliability of their weapons is not the best.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

        Of course, regardless of the EMP effect, the consequences would still be *!$&ing horrible.

        • WILD KATIPO 5.1.1.1

          Yeah it seems a bit excessive ( the 90% thing ).

          But rather a cumulative thing. The gradual ( in some cases rapid) shortages of food , medical services , and production of thereof , would kick in after just weeks for the population , for others already ill , it would be immediate. City’s would be a slow death trap as resources run out and looting / lack of enforcement began.

          Such unpleasanty’s we humans seem to delight in,…

          That’s why I posted a line from one of Barry Crumps novels a day or so ago…

          ” They’re all going mad out there ” ,… Uncle Hec said after listening to the news on the radio broadcast…

          And its true.

  6. adam 6

    Depressing, but love the way community helped each other.

    The state is wreaked, it can’t help. We need to do it in a new way.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_LmCOh-nm8&ab_channel=TeleSUREnglish

  7. Penny Bright 7

    NZ WHISTLE-BLOWER UPDATE:

    MORE EVIDENCE OF ‘BANANA REPUBLIC’ NZ.

    (Monday 16 October 2017)

    How can Tamaki Regeneration Ltd, (100% Crown-owned) with $1.6 billion of formed HNZ Tamaki properties, be a ‘subsidiary’ of Tamaki Redevelopment Company Ltd – which owns NOTHING?

    How good is our supposedly leading ‘public audit’ body – the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG)?

    How come the OAG didn’t apparently pick up that neither Tamaki Redevelopment Company Ltd NOR Tamaki Regeneration Ltd were even listed as ‘Crown Entity Companies’ under Sch 2 of the Crown Entities Act 2004?

    https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/51SCSS_ADV_00DBSCH_ANR_71779_1_A546817/74107eb85bc690846d7d489774d35f6130f9798c

    “During the year three additional subsidiary entities were established.

    Tāmaki Regeneration Limited (TRL) was established for the purposes of housing redevelopment.

    THA GP Limited (THAGP) for tenancy/property management and Tāmaki Housing Association Limited Partnership (THALP) for future use.

    TRL and THALP are Crown entity subsidiaries under the Crown Entities Act 2004.

    TRL is not, however, a subsidiary of TRC for financial reporting purposes as the Crown controls TRL through the convertible preference shares it holds.
    ________________

    Crown Entities Act 2004 No 115 (as at 01 July 2017), Public Act Schedule 2 Crown entity companies – New Zealand Legislation

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0115/latest/DLM331125.html

    There is NO Crown Entity Schedule for ‘Crown Entity subsidiaries’.

    Just Crown Entity Companies.

    Neither Tamaki Redevelopment Company Ltd, nor Tamaki Regeneration Ltd are listed under the Crown Entities Act 2004, Schedule 2 as ‘Crown Entity Companies’!

    File under “You Couldn’t Make This Sh*t Up’.

    This 5 minute video explaining the, IMO, ‘Tamaki Scam’ has now had over 174,000 views on facebook.

    IMO, the essence of the ‘Tamaki Scam’ has been to use similar-sounding names for different companies, in order to disguise the real private property developer-driven GENTRIFICATION’ agenda, as ‘Regeneration’ of poorer communities.

    https://www.facebook.com/penny.bright.104/posts/1796625243683493‬

    Penny Bright

    • cleangreen 7.1

      Just another National Party rort in a strong National seat of Tauranga.

      This is more criminal enterprise as a naked scene is laid bare for all to see.

    • NewsFlash 7.2

      And the media are complaining there’s no news to report, I think they have lost the definition of news and replaced it with opinion

  8. Andre 8

    Car registrations: anyone want to offer a defense of the current fucked-up system we have with wild discrepancies between petrol and diesel and different levies based on a fairly crap “safety” dataset from a foreign country?

    Or is it time to ditch the ACC component of registration and load it all onto fuel?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/97705202/calls-to-get-rid-of-vehicle-licensing-and-its-235000-fines

    First up, there’s a huge difference in ACC treatment between petrol and diesel. All ACC levies for diesel vehicles are collected from registrations and none from fuel, whereas there is some ACC levy collected from petrol sales and some from petrol vehicle registrations. The only justification I’ve seen for this is mumbling about how commercial and farming users primarily use diesel and they pay ACC levies through the tax system. But those users already have accounting systems set up to track fuel payments etc and it would be bugger-all added expense or difficulty to reconcile ACC levies paid in fuel with the rest of their accounts.

    Then there’s the inequity of charging ACC for the act of simply owning a vehicle and keeping it ready for use. I can’t think of any hazard ACC should be concerned with associated with owning a vehicle, except for possible injuries while doing DIY repairs (which are much more likely on classic vehicles that are ACC exempt). The hazard comes from using the vehicle. So putting all the levy on fuel would mean the amount a user pays much more closely tracks the risk of a user making an ACC claim.

    Finally, the difference in ACC levy between different vehicles is entirely based on a crap estimate of how well a vehicle protects its occupants, and totally fails to consider the hazard of that vehicle to other road users. I own a 1994 Landrover Defender and a 2001 Daihatsu Sirion. The Defender has exactly the same safety features as the 1984 model Defender, yet is classed as safer (with a lower ACC levy) than 1993 or earlier Defenders. It’s also classed as safer than the Sirion, which has airbags, antilock brakes, crumple zones, pretensioning seatbelts, padding on interior hard points etc, which are all absent in the Defender. And if I’m to get hit by one of them, I’d definitely prefer it’s the Sirion.

    • weka 8.1

      I always assumed the primary reason for registering vehicles was so they were harder to sell if you stole one. Also, you can’t easily abandon them.

      Are there countries that don’t have vehicle registration?

      That’s separate from how levies should be applied (or at all). But it’s the difference between altering the system or dumping it.

      • Andre 8.1.1

        Unlike the article, I’m not advocating dumping registration altogether. But I would advocate setting registration fees just at the level needed to maintain the vehicles database. Which would just be the license component of current fees, $52.11 per year.

        Pennsylvania and Wisconsin were like that, annual fees just covered the database costs. California had basically a wealth tax on registration, where they added an extra fee based on a % (about 1% from memory) of the estimated value of the vehicle.

    • McFlock 8.2

      It’s not just farmers who use diesel off-road. Lots of places have stand-alone generators for uninterrupted power supplies, diesel engines for machinery, and even diesel for those jet-engine-style heaters.

      I’d suspect non-transport use of diesel is a far higher component of diesel use than e.g. lawnmowers and weedeaters are a component of petrol purchases.

      • Andre 8.2.1

        Sure. And diesel for marine use.

        But my point remains, that those non-transport users almost all have accounting systems set up so it’s a negligible change to them to add ACC levies to fuel.

        And at the moment I’m not aware of recreational marine users of diesel paying ACC levies anywhere, so putting the levy on fuel would mean they contribute something to ACC. Coz sure as shit recreational boating does have accidents that ACC ends up paying for.

        • McFlock 8.2.1.1

          Actually, recreational fishers would be non-work injuries and come out of a different account @ACC, paid into by all earners or from the general taxes if the injured person is not an earner.

          Whereas transport injuries come out of the specific transport account.

  9. Chris 9

    More hateful bullying from the extreme right corporates at IHC. Despicable.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/341656/eviction-forces-seriously-ill-man-to-live-in-motel

  10. I am sending heartfelt wishes for all the victims of the 2 Mogadishu truck bombs in Somalia. 276 dead at least and so many maimed and ruined, so many lives affected and loved ones suffering. I wish I had more to give, I’m sorry I don’t. I have my tears and that seems so inadequate.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/97902678/deadliest-attack-ever-in-somalia-kills-189

    • McFlock 10.1

      jeez that sucks.

    • Mickey Boyle 10.2

      This wont receive much coverage in the media, the sad thing is if this had of happened in New York or dare I say it Auckland imagine the coverage. Why does our media pick and choose their coverage of carnage?, do they think we don’t want to know or aren’t as interested because these people look different to us? or is this theory actually true, do we only care about european type atrocities?, makes you wonder.

      • Andre 10.2.1

        An atrocity in Las Vegas or New York or Nice gets lots more coverage here because local readers are much more likely to feel some kind of connection to where it happened. Maybe they have visited or know some locals there, and may have a feeling of “that could have been me”. Whereas very very few readers will feel any connection whatsoever to Mogadishu and the people there.

        • Mickey Boyle 10.2.1.1

          Yes I think you are probably right.

        • marty mars 10.2.1.2

          Yep to a point, yet they are people with families and loved ones. I’d imagine it is mainly because they are African and therefore people of colour that has a big influence too on the decisions to run with it. The magnitude of the terror bomb and death will put it on the news tonight and the fact that it is political as in terrorism and it is the biggest atrocity in that country will all counteract the colour issue. The clips will be barely watchable for those with tvs I’d say.

          • Andre 10.2.1.2.1

            I suppose to try tease out how much of the difference is due to the victims being Africans, and how much is whether readers feel a connection and the “could have been me” factor, you could ponder what the coverage would be like had this happened in say Nairobi or Zanzibar or Arusha. Somewhere that a reasonable number of NZers have actually visited.

            • marty mars 10.2.1.2.1.1

              Have many visited those places? I wouldn’t have a clue tbh. That side of kiwidom is not one i’m familiar with really – I’m too poor. Although I have been to Aussie and India about 25 years ago when I was in the Hari’s.

              • Andre

                Admittedly my social circle probably includes a fairly high number of people that travel a lot. But just off the top of my head I can think of 23 first-hand acquaintances that have been to at least one of them. That’s 23 more than people I know that have been to Mogadishu.

  11. Andre 11

    We’re certainly in the genitalia presidency. The orange howler monkey gave us way too much information about his own and his habits with other people’s. Now Tillerson feels the need to clarify the status of his. What next, will other members of cabinet have to clarify whether they’re grabbed or ungrabbed?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/15/politics/tillerson-sotu-fully-intact/index.html

  12. Mickey Boyle 12

    Is anyone watching Manhunt Unabomber on the discovery channel?, i’m finding it absolutely riveting, if not check it out, its basically a short series on the hunt and capture of Theodore Kaczynski aka The Unabomber.

  13. James 13

    Well here is a fantastic opportunity for all the lefties who are so confident of a labour led government

    https://www.betfair.com.au/exchange/politics/event/28338644/market?marketId=1.133262888

    Great odds for you to make some serious money.

    Unless you are wrong of course.

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