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Open mike 17/11/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 17th, 2019 - 67 comments
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67 comments on “Open mike 17/11/2019 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    17 November 2019 at 7:42 am

    Elizabeth Warren's healthcare proposal really isn't Medicare-for-all, it's more like Medicare-for-all-who-want-it. And that's a very good thing.

    What she has laid out in detail as a first stage is ambitious, makes it feasible to expand coverage to a lot of people that are now under-covered or not covered. It's politically achievable through a combination of executive action and budget reconciliation, meaning it can get passed with a bare majority in the senate even if the filibuster remains. (There is a second stage that really is Medicare-for-all, but anybody that actually see the real world, even if just through a telescope, will immediately understand that it simply ain't gonna happen in the next couple of decades.)

    Most importantly, it avoids the trap of making the half of Americans covered by employer sponsored health insurance think they are going to be forced to give it up.

    But it does carry the risk of being insufficient for purity progressives and the congenitally disgruntled that would rather give power to the right's regressive agenda than accept real progress that falls short of their politically unattainable ideal.

    https://slate.com/business/2019/11/elizabeth-warren-health-care-transition-medicare-for-all.html

    • Ad 1.1
      17 November 2019 at 8:17 am

      To me the bigger risk is she's viewed as a tax-and-spend wonk with too-big policies and not the ability to win the states that enabled Trump to be in power. That's the more important purity contest. Much as I love wonks.

      • Andre 1.1.1
        17 November 2019 at 8:38 am

        Currently Medicare is funded by a payroll tax of around 3% (alongside a payroll tax around 12% for Social Security) that applies to income up to about $140k pa then disappears (much like the ACC earner levy here disappears for income over around $130k).

        Making the Medicare expansion relatively modest opens the door to the possibility of funding it by lifting or removing the threshold at which it stops getting applied, and possibly extending it to other forms of income such as dividends.

        Then the argument could become that it's not adding to ordinary people's taxes, instead it's making the bosses making millions pay the same taxes as ordinary people that they've been escaping until now.

        In contrast, Bernie embraces the entire tax-and-spend vibe by being explicit that middle-class taxes are gonna rise to pay for his ideas. Which is why he's not going to rise beyond having a small-but-enthusiastic portion of the Dem base.

  2. Ad 2
    17 November 2019 at 9:38 am

    With Gareth Hughes retiring, all results being equal who is next on the Green Party list?

    • marty mars 3.1
      17 November 2019 at 10:26 am

      The Defence Force refused to be interviewed, but in a statement said it "takes its responsibility to ensure areas used by New Zealand forces are free of unexploded ordnance very seriously".

      …But locals point out it is now six years since New Zealand left Afghanistan and question why the work hasn't been carried out already.

      Yeah very seriously indeed NOT – I wonder what their spin will be on this and who will misremember important items and communication this time. Rotten.

  4. Robert Guyton 4
    17 November 2019 at 9:53 am

    Well, I didn't know that!

    "I was just a working class kid from Gisborne who cared about girls and cars and rugby more than politics that somehow fell into a passion for environmentalism, somehow got to Parliament. So I've always pinched myself, the fact that I'm here."

    Gareth Hughes

  5. Robert Guyton 5
    17 November 2019 at 9:55 am

    Gareth, who's retiring from politics, also said:

    ""As I reflect across 20 years of activism I realise that I've spent 20 years winning campaigns, but each one's kind of like chopping off the head of the hydra. There's always another equally important campaign right behind it. I've spent 20 years fighting the symptoms, not the source."

    And

    "Across my 10 years here, things have actually got worse. Emissions have increased, we are still losing a hundred million tons of topsoil every year – our most precious resource – homelessness is growing," Hughes says.

    "I don't think the Government has been transformational. There's been pockets of transformation, but you know, I don't think historians are gonna look back at it and say 'This was a turning point on the scale of the 1930s or 1980s'. And I think that's desperately needed."

    "It's a disappointment that we aren't seeing the change I think we need. As a father, I'm desperately worried about the future of the world."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117439116/outgoing-green-mp-gareth-hughes-says-the-government-has-not-been-transformational

    • Sacha 5.2
      17 November 2019 at 10:29 am

      Shamubeel Eaqub brings the crossover with those generational frustrations that have popped up again:

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/117422673/baby-boomers-had-a-chance-to-help-younger-generations-they-didnt

      At the aggregate, progress remains on track. We have better nutrition, medicines, homes and playthings.

      But at the collective level many things have changed. While Boomers grew up in an era of very low-income inequality and state mechanisms that assisted them with education, housing supply, and infrastructure, the same is not true for future generations.

      The majority Boomer political consensus that guides our politics is individual and short-term. The reforms of the 1980s entrenched this, and reversed many of the past fixes to society's problems.

      To me, the core neolib value of selfishness has driven too many New Zealanders to pass wealth to their own children (house deposits, loan-free education, etc) while our governments have steadily reduced any redistribution to broader society. People voted those governments back in. Culture industries reinforced the ideology. Inequality thrived.

      Boomers have disproportionately had the power to do something different if they chose to, just by life stage and demographic shifts over their lifetimes. The following generations are now quite naturally asking why they did not. And my, doesn't that hit a raw nerve.

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    17 November 2019 at 9:58 am

    "Let's be clear, defining people by generation is as stupid as a vegan burger but since that is the way the game is now played, I'll play."

    Whoever wrote that seriously lacks the ability to self-reflect. Seriously.

    • Incognito 6.1
      17 November 2019 at 10:05 am

      Link please.

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.1
        17 November 2019 at 10:06 am

        It’s one of those “do not link” situations, so I’m conflicted.

        • Incognito 6.1.1.1
          17 November 2019 at 10:14 am

          At least name the person you’re quoting and point to (as in mention) the website.

          Some readers of this site may want to read it or more of it and don’t suffer from the same conflict as you do. In fact, they would copy & paste more or less the whole thing here to draw attention 😉

          When you quote, you have to provide a little more than just the quote, please.

          Edit: providing information allows for fact-checking and guards against people making up shit. You’d be surprised how often this happens! We don’t want (our) politicians to make up shit and we have to have similar expectations of others and ourselves IMO.

        • Andre 6.1.1.2
          17 November 2019 at 10:18 am

          For those readers on phones that might be interested enough to search for it:

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/117392407/damien-grant-quit-whinging-millennials-boomers-built-your-houses-and-endured-actual-nuclear-war

          But maybe the information that it's a Damien Grant piece will tell them all they might want to know without going any further.

          • Incognito 6.1.1.2.1
            17 November 2019 at 10:28 am

            Maybe, or maybe they would want to read it for themselves and make up their own minds. We’re not parrots and this is not an echo-chamber nor are we a Borg-collective of like-minded obedient conforming entities toeing some (party?) line. I’d like to think that being as inclusive and diverse as possible creates the most interesting environment and basis for progressive politics. Maybe I’m dreaming.

            • Andre 6.1.1.2.1.1
              17 November 2019 at 10:34 am

              Either way, just quoting a one-sentence tease like Robert did was just plain mean. Especially since the URL included the necessary info for those uninterested in considering alternative views.

              • Incognito …
                17 November 2019 at 11:35 am

                Feeling internally conflicted is a sure sign for being (more) open and transparent (and inclusive) in order to avoid wrong-footing people. Comments here should not read like ‘headlines’ and clarity is key IMO.

                My comments may seem an over-reaction but it goes to one of re-occurring issues on and of this site, which is that of inappropriate attribution, e.g. quoting/citing without source, paraphrasing without making it clear, putting words/thoughts/intentions into people’s comments, et cetera. The list is actually quite long because it goes to the core issue of commenting from only or largely one PoV, i.e. your own. Politicians must feel this conflict and tension a lot and the two referendums next year give some support to this notion. For example, this piece in Stuff by Thomas Coughlan: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/117450429/two-years-in-parliament-groans-under-the-weight-of-difficult-social-lawmaking

          • Sacha 6.1.1.2.2
            17 November 2019 at 10:30 am

            It's all I would have needed.

  7. Wayne Mapp 7
    17 November 2019 at 10:02 am

    This is normally a blog where the comments are typically in the zone of reasonable. But not today.
    Dial it back, otherwise it makes it impossible for the comments section to have actual debate, as opposed to abuse.

    [not sure what you are referring to there Wayne, but if there is something specific the mods should know about please link below. – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Robert Guyton 7.1
      17 November 2019 at 10:03 am

      Classic! I think you might have misplaced your comment, Wayne; was it intended for the National Party Homepage?

    • Stuart Munro. 7.2
      17 November 2019 at 10:07 am

      We might take this as your boilerplate response to anything even vaguely socially responsible Wayne.

      If you actually have anything specific to criticize you really ought to put it out there.

    • Anne 7.4
      17 November 2019 at 10:28 am

      That was uncalled for Wayne Mapp.

      Just because the subject matter is outside your range of sensibilities does not make it any less worthy of reflection and discussion.

      Pity. Your responses in person to the Operation Burnham Inquiry earned you quite a bit of kudos here a month or two ago, and now you spoil it by throwing sticks at a few people having a reasonable conversation.

    • marty mars 7.5
      17 November 2019 at 10:29 am

      lol mapp having a paddy – trying to distract like a typical ex politician

      • weka 7.5.1
        17 November 2019 at 10:46 am

        Or maybe he was reading yesterday's OM and saw a couple of long term regulars trashing the place again by being shits to each other.

        • marty mars 7.5.1.1
          17 November 2019 at 10:55 am

          trashing the place again? lol – ban the bastards that'll bring more nice people like wayne in…

          • Incognito 7.5.1.1.1
            17 November 2019 at 11:13 am

            Working on it … 😉

          • weka 7.5.1.1.2
            17 November 2019 at 11:15 am

            I'm not ok with TS commentariat being a small number of commenters, many of whom like to bitch at each other. The kaupapa here is robust debate and that transcends party politics. I disagree with most things Wayne says, but he has a long history of bringing political points to the commentariat that encourage robust debate. If we excluded people like him and were left with just the people that want to bitch at each other, it would be a pretty sad place.

            The point I appreciate about Wayne's comment is that how we talk here can encourage debate or make it less likely. Given how few people have been commenting lately, it looks to me like there are reasons for people to stay away. That with the low number of authors* is an issue for the site, now and long term. I'd appreciate it if you could have a think about those things.

            *I'm one of the authors who writes in part to stimulate discussion, so it's demoralising when commenters appear to not care about the wellbeing of the community.

            • marty mars 7.5.1.1.2.1
              17 November 2019 at 11:35 am

              Fair enough – I don't really like what you and incog are trying to do to the place – I think you take it too serious and have pretensions on what you think happens here – but that's just my opinion. I can't really be bothered with the tension from you two so I'll take a break from here for a while.

              • weka …
                17 November 2019 at 11:38 am

                as you wish marty. I'm sorry you don't appreciate my posts and comments.

              • Incognito …
                17 November 2019 at 12:34 pm

                I am dumbfounded by this comment, which doesn’t give anything useful to engage with 🙁

                • weka …
                  17 November 2019 at 12:38 pm

                  I found it pretty hard going too. Nothing that can be engaged with but nevertheless with barbs. I rate marty's presence here, but honestly, given the state of the commentariat and the low number of authors, there's a limit to how much ad hom shit like this I can take before my modding becomes more self-preservation as much as anything. Often people really don't get what it takes to keep TS running, but dumping on authors and mods seems really self-defeating.

        • Andre 7.5.1.2
          17 November 2019 at 10:59 am

          What was in yesterday's open mike or anywhere else recent was pretty tame compared to stuff that's appeared here in the past. Including some really vicious stuff directed personally at Wayne.

          Maybe Wayne was replying to a comment that subsequently got deleted?

          • weka 7.5.1.2.1
            17 November 2019 at 11:08 am

            I thought it wasn't out of the norm for here either, but commenting was just starting to pick up so it was disappointing seeing two regulars think that their personal issues were more important than making a good space for everyone.

            • marty mars 7.5.1.2.1.1
              17 November 2019 at 11:13 am

              I feel you may be talking about me – is that correct?

              • weka …
                17 November 2019 at 11:17 am

                you and bwaghorn (who copped a ban). But that was just yesterday, it could have been any of a number of regulars. My concern here is about the health and vitality of the commentariat (vis a vis my comment at 7.5.1.1.2 above)

                • weka …
                  17 November 2019 at 11:18 am

                  you and b both bring important perspectives to this place, so I don't really get why you both do that other stuff.

  8. Pat 8
    17 November 2019 at 10:15 am

    "In summary, National has failed to demonstrate it understands the climate crisis, our gains from responding to it and the pivotal importance of the Zero Carbon Bill in tackling it."

    No surprises there

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/11/17/911072/we-did-this-oram

  9. Rosemary McDonald 9
    17 November 2019 at 12:38 pm

    Just listened to "Two Cents Worth " on Natrad. Needed tissues.

    Rhymes with wankers….

    (Prostrate I am owing to lack of linking ability. Happy for someone to explain to me how to do the link thing from my phone. Single syllables please.)

  10. joe90 10
    17 November 2019 at 2:11 pm

    Meanwhile, a black man in Texas still faces execution for a crime that he probably didn't commit.

    https://taskandpurpose.com/trump-frees-clint-lorance

  11. millsy 11
    17 November 2019 at 2:46 pm

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12285880

    The people of the West Coast March for their right to poison the air, water and turn pristine landscapes into apopylptic wastelands

    Let's face it. All they care about is profit. They hate clean water, trees and National parks. They will strip mine the whole area and burn down every tree to get that sweet sweet coin.

    Profit should never be put before our landscapes.

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1
      17 November 2019 at 2:59 pm

      Wow. A Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Soimon Party.

      Truly balanced reporting, as one would expect from the Herald.

    • Bruce 11.2
      17 November 2019 at 4:30 pm

      They could just start planting hemp. Start producing body parts for the new Porsche, or produce bio fuel,or the stuff to make batteries for electric vehicles. Make Monsanto free cloth, Sequester some carbon and heal the soil and rivers. Make healthy drinks or super food.

    • Ad 11.3
      17 November 2019 at 5:34 pm

      This rally is more important than the Beehive rally of the farmers last week protesting about arable land going into forestry.

      Labour aren't going to win back any farmer votes, because they barely had any in the first place.

      But the Labour Party in no small part was formed on the West Coast out of miners. Damien O'Connor is the local MP.

      Just like Southland when the Tiwai Point smelter closes down, the West Coast has had rescue packages before but with continued decline they need even more "transition" plans i.e. more public money. Enter stage right … Shane Jones one would hope.

      I hope they figure out how dumb selling the West Coast dairy company was. Fucking moronic.

      I'd like to see more pressure put onto the government to come up with transition plans for regions like this.

    • ianmac 11.4
      17 November 2019 at 5:53 pm

      How come they are able to spread mischief lies and more damned lies without any explanation or clarity on just what is going to happen.

      Was it a rally organised by National or did Bridges just turn up?

  12. Eco maori 12
    18 November 2019 at 6:29 pm

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    The weather is getting more Mana because of human cause Global Warming.

    Ka kite Ano

  13. Eco maori 13
    18 November 2019 at 6:50 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That's is needed a new 40 room mental health unit.

    Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa need to have a say in what happens to their Taonga Wai in their area.

    Its good to see Te Tangata Whenua of Australia making a stand for getting respected and Human rights for justice.

    Ka kite Ano

  14. Eco maori 14
    19 November 2019 at 10:50 am

    These companies need to be forced into paying for their polluting products so they learn to minimise the amount of their products ending up in the Sea ultimately that is were it all ends up. They must pay a bounty so it will be profitable for people to recycle the stuff.

    Big plastic polluters accused of cynically backing US recycling day

    America Recycles Day promoted by EPA is brainchild of not-for-profit backed by companies that produce plastic products

    But critics point out that the initiative is the brainchild of Keep America Beautiful, a not-for-profit founded and backed by large companies that produce vast quantities of plastic products that end up as pollution.

    Current backers include Coca-Cola, Nestlé, Pepsico, and Altria, the tobacco giant formerly known as Phillip Morris. Decades of campaigns by the group have emphasized individual responsibility for plastic recycling, which data reveals to be a largely broken system.

    Coca-Cola is world's biggest plastics polluter – again

    “Just like the fossil fuel industry, corporate polluters have been using recycling to justify ever-increasing production of single-use packaging, while taxpayers and cities are left to foot the bill,” said Denise Patel, the US and Canada program director of Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives.

    “Lower-income communities and communities of color, who are the hardest hit and the least responsible, bear the brunt of a model that has brought us to the brink of the waste and climate crisis

  15. Eco maori 15
    19 November 2019 at 11:09 am

    The wealthiest people of the World must pay more tax so that all the problems created by their massive companies harvesting their wealth can be minimized.

    Taxing wealth is an idea now thrust to the center of the Democratic primary. Sens. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have both put forward wealth tax plans that would hit the nation's richest citizens with steeper taxes in a bid to reduce inequality and pay for their progressive agendas.

    The plans have generated fierce blowback among some economists, Wall Street financiers and leading corporate leaders like Bill Gates, who argue that a wealth tax would stifle economic growth and hurt investment.

    It's an argument that echoes back to the 19th century, when the brutal system of slavery was locked into the engine of the American economy, according to two economists at the University of California in a recent book

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-wealth-tax-opposition-rooted-in-rhetoric-of-southern-slaveowners-2019-11

  16. Eco maori 16
    19 November 2019 at 12:37 pm

    The World needs to investigate and invest in Renewable energy solutions to clean up the mess we will leave our Grandchildren.

    In Finland, a start-up wants to produce hydrocarbons using renewables

    Soletair Power says it will integrate its system into buildings. Petri Laakso, the firm's CEO, explained to CNBC's "Sustainable Energy" that city air could be pushed through a ventilation unit and a carbon capturing unit, resulting in less carbon dioxide indoors. The firm's electrolyzer and synthesis unit would then be utilized to produce hydrocarbons.

    If the building were connected to a gas grid, Laakso said, "you could provide synthetic methane, which you can pump into (the) gas grid." The grid could be used for energy storage or as a filling station for cars, he added.

    Whether Soletair Power's concept becomes a fixture on buildings remains to be seen, but the idea is generating interest.

    In April 2019, it announced it had secured 500,000 euros (around $551,630) in seed funding from the Wärtsilä Corporation to "pilot and commercialize its concept" of boosting air quality in buildings through the capture and conversion of carbon dioxide into "synthetic renewable fuel.

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/11/18/in-finland-a-start-up-wants-to-produce-hydrocarbons-using-renewables.html

  17. Eco maori 17
    19 November 2019 at 6:28 pm

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    Looks good that the Ihumatao issues are looking like being sorted.

    I admire the Prince many years of commitment to conservation.

    That's the way the Government has to have the tools laws to protect Aotearoa sovereignty the new is needed.

    Ka kite Ano

  18. Eco maori 18
    19 November 2019 at 6:52 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Te Waiata is a great way to let tangata know what the true feeling of the nation is.

    I ignore the ignorant times have changed.

    Like I have said before whanau tangata whenua have to run for Council seats so Our voices will be heard 3 years is a lot of time to plan the mahi.

    I know what they are talking about Homeless Kaumatua the rents are spiking. We have discrimination because we're Maori and age discrimination as well.

    Ka pai Kiri Mana Wahine you have been a bright shining Star from Maoridom.
    That’s awesome a Ap to help our Rangatahi show there sports skills to the world

    Ka kite Ano

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