Open mike 17/05/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 17th, 2013 - 112 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

112 comments on “Open mike 17/05/2013”

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  1. Tony P 1
    17 May 2013 at 6:59 am

    A simple but informative reflection on the Budgets implications for Education.

    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/education-vote-private-sector-win.html

    • ghostrider888 1.1
      17 May 2013 at 2:30 pm

      more dec. lines; this government won’t “catch up”; just continue to drag the line down.

  2. mickysavage 2
    17 May 2013 at 7:35 am

    The Government’s housing accords legislation needs some intense scrutiny. Already Len Brown has come out and suggested very gently that the legislation does not comply with the accord.

    The Herald reports:

    Auckland Mayor Len Brown welcomed the introduction of the legislation to formalise last Friday’s housing accord aimed at tackling issues of land supply and housing affordability in the city.

    But he said there were a number of clauses in the bill that appeared to be inconsistent with the Auckland Housing Accord, which sets a target of 39,000 new homes through a fast-track planning process.

    Mr Brown said he would be seeking clarification on a number of inconsistencies that relate to people having a say on new developments, rules applying to new houses, who runs the process and the extent of appeals.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10884202

    Interestingly the Accord states that publicity about it was to be agreed to by the Mayor and Nick Smith prior to its release. Looks like Len does not believe that this occurred.

    The bill itself is a disaster. It will ensure greenfield urban sprawl over brownfield regeneration development because brownfield development will have a height limitation and will be too expensive. One way or the other this Government wanted urban sprawl to happen.

    • mickysavage 2.1
      17 May 2013 at 7:48 am

      Sorry for replying to myself …

      Under the accord the Council recommends and the Government approves. The Government cannot recommend itself. This continues until the accord is finished under clause 17 of the accord.

      http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/SiteCollectionDocuments/aboutcouncil/planspoliciespublications/aucklandhousingaccord.pdf

      BUT

      under section 16(4)(a)(ii) of the Bill the Minister can propose if he gives notice of the government’s intention to withdraw from the accord. This is 6 months before the accord finishes and contradicts the accord.

      http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2013/0117/latest/whole.html#DLM5204771

      It is a big stick the Government has handed itself and it smacks of bad faith bargaining.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 12:07 pm

        It is a big stick the Government has handed itself and it smacks of bad faith bargaining.

        Are you really surprised by that from this government?

    • karol 2.2
      17 May 2013 at 10:13 am

      Ah, while the standard was offline I was doing a post on this. Penny Hulse was more blunt on RNZ this morning about the Bill breaching the agreement. Thanks for the other links, micky. I didn’t see you post before I added mine below, then the site went offline. I’ll add links to your comments on my post.

      • lprent 2.2.1
        17 May 2013 at 3:07 pm

        That was quite quite irritating. Third time for the same platform reasons. Finally found out why no-one ever acted on my problem tickets – they apparently went to the wrong place (grr – yeah right). It was only after I called their answering service that fixed whatever the problem was.

        I’ll be warming up a new server tomorrow despite them refunding the costs for the month. I can’t afford the time and the uncertainty of their not monitoring their own systems is unacceptable…

    • David H 2.3
      17 May 2013 at 10:02 pm

      And if the Nats force this thru then “Lenny it Will Be a disaster of biblical proportions”

  3. millsy 3
    17 May 2013 at 7:43 am

    From this budget one can only deduce the fact that this government supports the private provision of services rather than public provision. This is reflected most in the extension of HNZ rent subsidies to the community sector (but not councils), and its funding freeze for public tertiary providers.

    And we all have every reason to worry about fixed term tenancies for state houses. At first I thought that this would benefit private landlords, because of the effect that dumping 4000 people into the private market would have on (already crippling) rent levels. But no. Those who benefit will be those who own boarding houses and motor camps, because you can bet your life on the fact that those 4000 tenants, who lose their secure home because of some arbitary tenancy review, will end up in a boarding house or in a motor camp, because a private landlord simply will not house them, or they cannot afford the rent, or both.

    This is going to be ugly. You can count on it.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1
      17 May 2013 at 12:14 pm

      That is, from what I can make out, what National want as forcing people into poverty generally means that they will be willing to work for less which means that profits for the few go up. It is, quite simply, in everything that they do as government.

    • ghostrider888 3.2
      17 May 2013 at 2:32 pm

      good thoughts millsy; welcome to sub-prime US of A

  4. karol 4
    17 May 2013 at 8:16 am

    Sheesh. Did I just hear Penny Hulse say the government’s urgency Bill on the local council-government “housing accord” could mean the Auckland Council-government accord is dead in the water if the Bill is not changed?

  5. bad12 5
    17 May 2013 at 8:29 am

    More lies from bullshitting Bill, announcing in the budget that beneficiaries will be able to buy fridges and washing machines via a recoverable WINZ grant,

    Beneficiaries have been able to purchase these items of whiteware by this means for quite a few years, WINZ offices can even download photos of what is available (second hand) from their provider and delivery is arranged on the spot,

    Clever Bill from Dipton announcing what was put in place by the previous Labour Government as some ‘new’ spending on welfare…

    • freedom 5.1
      17 May 2013 at 10:07 am

      “Beneficiaries have been able to purchase these items of whiteware by this means for quite a few years,”
      Since the 1980’s as a matter of fact. It is a long standing process that reflected the ‘social need’ part of our Social Welfare system. Unfortunately like all generous aspects of the system, some have seen fit to abuse it and various checks and balances were introduced. Nowadays it is only available through a few approved vendors and these items are usually more expensive than some whiteware people might be able to source elsewhere, but the fraud component has certainly been curtailed.

      On a plus side the expectation is these vendors have better service and repair guarantees so the overall benefit to the consumer no doubt makes up for the increased cost.

      • bad12 5.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 12:21 pm

        Aha, i am highlighting the system that WINZ has had in place for at least the last 6 years where the whole purchase of whiteware, (fridges, washing machines), is completed through the WINZ office via their approved providers,

        As you point out, honest beneficiaries are paying a higher price for these second hand appliances than they might if the items were sourced through the likes of Trademe to curtail the small frauds of a few beneficiaries and the secondhand dealers who in the past have happily also indulged,

        On the plus side for beneficiaries is the guarantee, unspecified at the time of purchase but inherent in the consumer guarantee Act, repayment to WINZ of as little as $5 a week on the purchase and the delivery costs included in the price of the items bought, it would seem a reasonable system for providing for beneficiary needs which curtails fraudulent misbehavior and my opinion is that this should be extended to include other ‘large ticket’ items and even small loans to beneficiaries,

        Having said all that, it is total bullshit, outright lies from the Minister of Finance to stand in the Parliament of New Zealand and claim this scheme as a ‘new’ Government initiative from the present Government when it has been the common practice of WINZ for at least the last 6 years, to do this is not only to mislead the people of New Zealand, (who in most cases wouldn’t have a clue), it is also misleading the Parliament with an outright lie with which the opposition party’s should flay the Minister…

        • freedom 5.1.1.1
          17 May 2013 at 1:31 pm

          ” it is also misleading the Parliament with an outright lie with which the opposition party’s should flay the Minister…”

          I understand the emotive phrase that history is a foreign country
          and there are times it certainly feels like it happened somewhere else
          but what really grates, is apparently everyone was looking in the opposite direction.

  6. weka 6
    17 May 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Continuing from the other day. Background is here and here –

    Open mike 14/05/2013

    So. Very. Funny.

    Good on ya. Minor mistake but make no difference. The problem would seem to arise between us weka because I only heard the words, whereas you heard the words and all of this …
    “it’s not an issue of not being allowed to raise the points. It’s how it is done. Also, it’s not about the ‘race’ of the person asking the questions, it’s about their mana and their politics”

    We clearly see things differently.
    I generally try to weed out those sorts of elementes whereas you want them to lead the way.     vto

    (nah, what you quote of me there is before I listened to the panel discussion, and was a general comment on discussing racism in NZ).

    Leaving aside that it’s not a minor mistake, and that you obviously misled readers on what actually happened in the panel (albeit unintentionally), here is the question that you consider to be important outside of its context.

    Given that polls tell us that 80% of New Zealanders are distressed at seeing their country being slowly surrendered to the part descendants of the minority of Maori who breached the Treaty by rebelling against the Crown in the 1860s, could we use a republican referendum process to entrench racial equality?

    How about we discuss that as it stands?

    • marty mars 6.1
      17 May 2013 at 12:11 pm

      It’s a bit like trying to pick up that last sliver of wet soap 🙂

      But it is good to see that question – bloody hell only 80% I thought it was at least 140% by now.

      • weka 6.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 12:36 pm

        Lol.

        • vto 6.1.1.1
          17 May 2013 at 1:15 pm

          weka, I have answered the question around the identity of the questioner, twice. Not going to re-hash. You’ve set out your position I’ve set out mine and they are different for the reasons outlined. What you see as important and what I see as important are different. You look at things one way and I look at things another way and they are different.

          As to that piece marty mars has pulled out if you read through the whole lot, including previous threads, you would realise the context and the highly selective quoting (selectiveness admitted to). As to the particular issue in that though, the extreme sensitivity that is shown by you and marty interestingly matches the divisiveness witnessed on the ground. It seems far from settled. You are as feverish about it as they.

          As to the 80% question above, what do you think? I was not so much interested in the actual question, more in the interaction of peoples and the allowing of the question followed by the refusal to answer and the wider implications surrounding that.

          As to a marty list, the issues have all been raised over time – governance without representation, privilege based on birthright and race, the place of indigeneity, ….. on it goes. They will continue to arise and no doubt be commented on. And I expect you will be right there to pounce if you can.

          • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1
            17 May 2013 at 2:00 pm

            Yes vto i couldn’t fit all of your quotes in there. I’ll leave it up to weka to debate the finer points of your response. For me it is more of the same – mistruth, misrepresentation and misinformation from you to push your barrow which you can’t move from – your attitude is part of the problem and until that changes there is hardly any point engaging with you unless you come up with a list but oh no that’s too hard you’d rather snipe and hurt from a distance – so be it.

            my list again
            1 the Treaty is historical and a new one needs to be drafted to take into consideration the multicultural aspect of NZ society.
            2 too much emphasis (money) is on tangata whenua and that they have received enough emphasis (money)
            3 Māori were the first here and that could be called indigenous but it is irrelevant in today’s world
            4 Māori are inherently violent and warlike
            5 No one represents the ‘white man’ who gets abuse and derision when they say something that others perceive as racist
            6 Non-Māori who talk about race get accused of being racist
            7 Māori are racist to ‘white people’
            8 Celts were here before Māori and taught them everything of what they know until Māori killed them all
            9 The chinese bought slave-wives here to breed with Māori
            10 Barry Brailsford doesn’t talk shit

            • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1.1
              17 May 2013 at 2:09 pm

              bugger missed the cutoff

              my list about what you think around these issues vto

            • vto 6.1.1.1.1.2
              17 May 2013 at 2:46 pm

              Making it personal again i see. And plain stupid. You can’t help yourself can you.

              Don’t bother engaging arsehole. Go stick your head back in the sand.

              • marty mars …
                17 May 2013 at 2:53 pm

                losing it again – you always do that when you are cornered. I never abused or insulted you, that is your imagination AGAIN

                but if you want to go the insult way to distract from the series of posts about your misunderstandings we can do that – I’ll let those ones go and see if you can control yourself with your replies

                • vto …
                  17 May 2013 at 3:00 pm

                  imagination? look at your fucked list

                  • weka …
                    17 May 2013 at 3:04 pm

                    That list has been posted a few times in the past few days. If you don’t like it, or disagree with it, then why not post another one that better matches your views? We are waiting to hear what you specifically think vto.

                    Despite what you might think I believe that Pakeha do need to have this conversation in order to move on.

                  • marty mars …
                    17 May 2013 at 3:04 pm

                    hey be fair it was the first cut – point out the ones that are correct and I’ll amend it – seriously I thought they were mostly correct and not that bad really

              • weka …
                17 May 2013 at 3:02 pm

                That’s not really personal vto. It’s marty making observations about your behaviour. You may not like them, and you may disagree, but it’s not personal. Personal would be calling someone a racist fuckwit, something neither of us are doing (although I will happily call Ansell that). Or personal would be taking things known about your personal life and using them against you or to put you down.

                I note that in marty’s analysis of your behaviour, he gives you a way out. Did you see that?

                • vto …
                  17 May 2013 at 3:05 pm

                  It is about the person and not the issue. You even admit it here “It’s marty making observations about your behaviour” That is personal. Your reference to “fucking racist” is nasty personal. Where is discussion about the issue?

                  • weka …
                    17 May 2013 at 3:09 pm

                    We’re waiting for you to be specific about what you want to talk about. Honestly, I’d like to know.

                    All I can say is that I don’t think of you as a racist fuckwit at all. Ansell on the other hand… Do you see the difference?

                    • vto …
                      17 May 2013 at 3:19 pm

                      Noted ta. Of course there is a difference.

                      I am a little astounded at the idea that I dont want to talk specifics. I posted on the issue of accusations of racism when speaking of race. That was what started the thread. That was specific. I have posted on it before. I posted on it again here, with reference to the radio show. There was an error in this piece of backup which we have now thrashed to death. The thread has since been made all personal and lost its way. I started the thread with a particular issue. Answered. You may notice another further downthread.

                    • weka …
                      17 May 2013 at 11:16 pm

                      The call for specifics is specific to the convo from the last few days. Getting past the hooha about the RNZ reference, what is left? I don’t know and you won’t say. I guess that’s the end of the discussion for now.

                    • vto …
                      18 May 2013 at 2:57 pm

                      weka, you haven’t commented on the post at 10 below.

            • The Al1en 6.1.1.1.1.3
              17 May 2013 at 4:43 pm

              1, 3 (minus could be and irrelevant), 5 (first bit of sentence), 6 (including the word often) seem about right.

              And 8 is probably rubbish, but we’re here now and lovely

          • weka 6.1.1.1.2
            17 May 2013 at 2:30 pm

            “As to the 80% question above, what do you think? I was not so much interested in the actual question, more in the interaction of peoples and the allowing of the question followed by the refusal to answer and the wider implications surrounding that.”

            Right, I’ve really misunderstood then, because I thought you were interested in the question itself.

            Ok, fair enough, it’s not the question, it’s the interaction of the people and the refusal to answer. There is no way to look at that unless we put those things in their original context. As has been stated clearly, you misunderstood entirely what happened. The panelists didn’t want to answer teh questions because Ansell’s questions was (a) loaded and (b) an attempt to hijack the discussion (even the presenter noted that).

            You want to draw the conclusion that they didn’t want to answer because of fear of talking about racism, but by your own admission you didn’t listen to the thing properly and missed the context and the person asking the question (and don’t pretend now that the identity of the person answering doesn’t matter). There were in fact some other references in the talk to Maori and the implications of constitutional change (not alot but they were there), which belies the idea that people were avoiding talking about race.

            Sorry mate, you’ve dug a pretty big hole here. If you quit now we’ll give you hand up and out 🙂

            “And I expect you will be right there to pounce if you can.”

            “You are as feverish about it as they.”

            “extremely sensitive”

            That’s just nasty, and an attempt at marginalisation. It’s beneath you. Play the ball not the wo/man. If you don’t want robust debate, than say so, and ask for different terms. There is nothing wrong with me focussing on the things in your arguments that stand out to me. Your views on Kai Tahu and Southern Maori women are hugely offensive and simply add to the Pakeha distorted narrative that we know more about Maori than they do. That does immeasurable damage. I’m not feverish or extremely sensitive, I’m really fucking angry that someone like you would do that shit in a place like this.

            Like marty, I am disappointed that you won’t engage on the actual issues at this point in time. But I can also see that it would be hard to defend your points of view.

            • vto 6.1.1.1.2.1
              17 May 2013 at 3:09 pm

              Well weka, when it comes to that particualar issue that you are super-sensitive about don’t point the finger at me. I merely describe what I have witnessed on the ground and seen on here. It is feverish. Sorry if that offends you but that is what is seen.

              As for not wanting to engage on the actual issues, sorry, not accepted. Always engage on the issue but when it turns to the personal, nup.

              I think genuinely that you just need to ease up when someone says, for example, “the treaty is flawed” because at the moment when words like that are posted you can hear the sound of the soldiers turning to face the ‘threat’ instead of listening and thinking about what is being posted first. Marty rushes straight to arms hup two three four

              • weka …
                17 May 2013 at 3:14 pm

                vto, please, please say “the treaty is flawed”. Then we can talk.

                But you didn’t say that. You referenced something on Natrad, and completely misrepresented it, and unfortunately for you the thing you referenced was presented by a racist fuckwit. You just made a mistake, and had it been another person making such a mistake on a different topic, someone here would have taken them to task for it. It’s about intellectual rigour or truthfullness.

                “I merely describe what I have witnessed on the ground and seen on here.”

                What do you mean by ‘witnessed on teh ground’? Can you please be specific about which part of this issue you are referring to as well?

                • vto …
                  17 May 2013 at 3:20 pm

                  weka I have said the treaty is flawed (for certain purposes) on countless other occasions and swapped posts with others on it. It will come up again there is no doubt.

                  on the ground generally refers to real-life encounters. And detailed specifics are not possible unfortunately due to our small population and possible ramifications.

          • ghostrider888 6.1.1.1.3
            17 May 2013 at 2:36 pm

            imo, you do let yourself down on this topic vto; sorry to say, when you display such comprehension of other natural areas of discussion.

  7. Lanthanide 7
    17 May 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Seems to me that a lot of the spin National had around the last Labour government, which keeps coming up all the time in comments on stuff etc by people who obviously believe it, is that Labour got us into a horrible economic situation and borrowed and wasted all that money, because of the ridiculous “decade of deficits” report by the Treasury that National jumped on a parroted wide and far.

    Well, turn abouts fair play, I think. Now that the commentary around this budget is that a $75m surplus in 2014-2015 is margin of error and unimportant, it seems like Labour need to say something like this:

    “National want a $75m rounding-error surplus in 2014-2015. When we were in government between 1999 and 2008, we ran a surplus of $$$$ every single year. We got our borrowing down to 8% of GDP while reducing unemployment down to record lows, National are promising we’ll be at 20% debt of GDP by 2020. National has squandered the good work done by the Labour party.”

    etc etc.

  8. Rhinocrates 8
    17 May 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Check out Citizen A

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/05/16/citizen-a-with-martyn-bradbury-keith-locke-matthew-hooton-on-budget-keys-deal-gilmore-wrap/

    If you can stomach it, watch Hoots once again missing his medication and doing Tory Bullshit Bingo. It’s actually quite hilarious: “liberal elite” “lunatic left” and so on and so on – and then he tries to say that the Tories are, um, kinda liberal, because Muldoon’s father had syphilis.

    He must be expecting a huge paycheque for that. Under all that grease, there’s only slime.

    • ianmac 8.1
      17 May 2013 at 2:26 pm

      Dunno Rhino. I always find it worthwhile to hear what the other side is thinking. Of course as Mathew says he is in the Reagan, Douglas, Richardson mould. OK so how does he view stuff? Of course he is anti left but often what he says is the repeat of what the right want us too hear and even hope we might believe. Ha! But the risk is that the discussion also exposes the weakness of that rightist position and therefore good stuff.
      Matthew does get excited about his often shaky positions but so does Martyn. Well worth a watch. Thanks for the link.

      • Rhinocrates 8.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 5:06 pm

        Yes, I do agree that Hoots has one use, and that’s to let us know what the Tories want us to believe. If he gets pleasure out of winding people up, then that sad act of masturbation shows just what an empty shell he is.

    • Anne 8.2
      17 May 2013 at 4:10 pm

      Watched it this morning. Bomber was surprisingly polite in the circumstances. The bombastic Hoots did his usual…. wouldn’t let Keith Locke get a word in edge-wise.

      I think Hooton’s over the top language is a deliberate ploy to rile us. He knows the majority of people who hit the Daily Blog are – to varying degrees- on the Left of the political spectrum. He gets perverse pleasure winding them up.

      We should ignore him and then the enjoyment will go out of the game.

      • Murray Olsen 8.2.1
        18 May 2013 at 7:33 pm

        I’m all for not replying to anything he posts. All he is is a freshly showered and perfumed WhaleSpew.

  9. David 9
    17 May 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Just watching the committees today and I am left wondering: Why is it that the maori party have only 2 votes but 3 MP’s? Is Te Ururoa Flavell already crossed the floor to Mana?

    • mac1 9.1
      17 May 2013 at 3:54 pm

      http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/Features/b/0/0/00NZPHomeNews061120091-Voting-in-the-House-of-Representatives.htm

      “Who can vote?
      Only members who have been sworn in can vote. Members can vote even if they are absent, by the use of proxies. A formula is used which determines how many votes each party can have when a number of its members are absent from the parliamentary precincts. Thus a party may not always be able to cast the same number of votes as the party has members in the House.”

      • David 9.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 7:00 pm

        Oh I see, there was my conspiracy forming mind that jumped to all sorts of conclusions. I do believe that Mr Flavell is made of better stuff than his co-leaders however. Pita Sharples is an embarrassment and I’m sorry for ever thinking he would be any different. Turia is poison too.

  10. vto 10
    17 May 2013 at 3:13 pm

    In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

    Governance without representation.

    Flawed in the extreme and unsustainable in every society.

    • marty mars 10.1
      17 May 2013 at 4:03 pm

      add that to the list lol

      • Tigger 10.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 11:03 pm

        Democracy under attack!

      • vto 10.1.2
        18 May 2013 at 3:02 pm

        Adding mockery to your quiver now too. It does you and your people only ill.

        • marty mars 10.1.2.1
          18 May 2013 at 5:12 pm

          lol You love putting the boot in and when asked for a list of what you want to moan about you run for cover – keep hiding mate it suits you.

          • vto 10.1.2.1.1
            19 May 2013 at 12:27 am

            Go fuck yourself

            You ask for specifics, I give you one, you simply mock and get personal and avoid the issue. As you always do.

            Answer the issue cunt.

            • marty mars 10.1.2.1.1.1
              19 May 2013 at 1:24 am

              tell me noddy what came first – were you a chicken or an egg?

              • vto …
                19 May 2013 at 9:01 am

                Personal, denigrating mockery like the bully boy you are, again.

                Irrelevant.

                The issue (which you have demanded in a list like some dumb cock, then mocked me for not responding to your demand).

                “In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

                Governance without representation.

                Flawed in the extreme and unsustainable in every society”

                … if you imagine this has gone unnoticed in Christchurch then you are not just a bully boy but a fool too. It has been commented on a surprising number of times by people in significant positions in the city.

                To date you have had no answer to this issue cunt.

                • marty mars …
                  19 May 2013 at 11:08 am

                  a cock and two cunts now – your insults are degrading yourself and your people and showing you for the cluck cluck cluck you are – lucky adele isn’t here eh?

                  • vto …
                    19 May 2013 at 11:12 am

                    Still no answer. Just personal.

                    “In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

                    Governance without representation.

                    Flawed and unsustainable in every society”

                    Cunt.

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:22 am

                      lol look at a silly wee man using swearwords – what a joke you are vto – hardmanfail. Try a different one – you know the one you really want to use but are too scared to

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:23 am

                      answer the issue cunt

                      you demanded it so now answer it

                      “In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

                      Governance without representation.

                      Flawed and unsustainable in every society”

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:28 am

                      bit worked up this morning eh vto why is that I wonder – maybe your undies are too tight – have you checked recently I think they may be riding up a bit I’m certainly sensing skidmarks – time for a check – it’s okay I’ll wait.

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:29 am

                      the dumb cunt has no answer to the issue, just personal…

                      “In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

                      Governance without representation.

                      Flawed in the extreme and unsustainable in every society”

                      You demanded an issue, answer it.

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:34 am

                      I’ll make a list

                      there we go – what vto thinks

                      1 the Treaty is historical and a new one needs to be drafted to take into consideration the multicultural aspect of NZ society.
                      2 too much emphasis (money) is on tangata whenua and that they have received enough emphasis (money)
                      3 Māori were the first here and that could be called indigenous but it is irrelevant in today’s world
                      4 Māori are inherently violent and warlike
                      5 No one represents the ‘white man’ who gets abuse and derision when they say something that others perceive as racist
                      6 Non-Māori who talk about race get accused of being racist
                      7 Māori are racist to ‘white people’
                      8 Celts were here before Māori and taught them everything of what they know until Māori killed them all
                      9 The chinese bought slave-wives here to breed with Māori
                      10 Barry Brailsford doesn’t talk shit
                      11 chicken and can’t answer a question without swearing like a fool

                      Got to go to work for an hour but I’ll come back soon to help you through your anger and abuse issues.

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:36 am

                      Answer the fucking issue cunt

                      “In Christchurch Ngai Tahu is now exercising a form of governance over all the residents by way of decision-making in the RMA process in the central city rebuild. However, all of the residents do not get representation in Ngai Tahu, that is the preserve of those of Ngai Tahu descent.

                      Governance without representation.

                      Flawed and unsustainable in every society”

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:40 am

                      in through the nose out through the mouth breathe deep it’s okay I forgive your outrageous abuse but try and forgive yourself while I’m away it will make the session go better after lunch.

                    • pollywog …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:40 am

                      Whats good for the goose is…

                      Ngai Tahu may make a healthy check and balance to the ChCh oldboys who have long made decisions of governance with no accountability at all, to anyone.

                      At least Ngai Tahu are accountable to their iwi members for the money they intend to spend in the rebuild.

                      That gives them certain “rights” to effect decisions…does it not ?

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:40 am

                      answer the fucking issue that you demanded fuckwit

                      answer it

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:48 am

                      Excellent, thanks pw, some sanity at last..

                      “Whats good for the goose is…

                      Ngai Tahu may make a healthy check and balance to the ChCh oldboys who have long made decisions of governance with no accountability at all, to anyone.

                      At least Ngai Tahu are accountable to their iwi members for the money they intend to spend in the rebuild.

                      That gives them certain “rights” to effect decisions…does it not ?”

                      Of course what has gone in in the oldboy etc past that you mention had very similar flawed and unsustainable pratices and policies. That had certain results which were not good for maori or society as a whole. It is not that which is referred to however, although it is acknowledged. It should be similarly acknowledged that what was flawed in the past is flawed now and will be in the future.

                      There can be no governance without represention.

                      Your point about Ngai Tahu being a healthy check and balance is of course correct, but neither is that the point.

                      Your point about Ngai Tahu being accountable to their iwi members is also correct, but slides off the side of the issue. If Ngai Tahu wishes to exercise governance over others then they must be accountable in the same way to those others, no to just their iwi members.

                      This of course is a relatively minor development in the practical scheme of day to day things, but the principle is crucial. There must not be governance without representation. It applies to every socety. It is bad for Ngai Tahu – such a system gets no respect.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 May 2013 at 11:54 am

                      vto – it’s up to the City of Christchurch to take into account all views in the RMA process. I’m not sure why you are focussing on Ngai Tahu when they haven’t been delegated consenting powers by the City Council (unless I missed something?).

                      Consent decisions are still made by the City Council and not by Ngai Tahu. You want representation? Go to the Council that’s what they are there for.

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 12:12 pm

                      colonial viper – “vto – it’s up to the City of Christchurch to take into account all views in the RMA process. I’m not sure why you are focussing on Ngai Tahu when they haven’t been delegated consenting powers by the City Council (unless I missed something?).

                      Consent decisions are still made by the City Council and not by Ngai Tahu. You want representation? Go to the Council that’s what they are there for.”

                      Consent decisions are now made by Ngai Tahu (and Council and cera). This is the problem.

                      Here are some facts, as explained by Mark Solomon on the Ngai Tahu website. Ngai Tahu is not just having input, or consultation etc, it is making the decisions. This is the governance…. “He says the tribal representative body, Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu, along with its statutory partners, the Christchurch City Council and CERA, each appoint a member to panel hearings to consider resource consent applications ”

                      We have representation through Council, good. We have representation through cera, good. We have no representation through Ngai Tahu, bad. This is the point. The principle is crucial to a healthy society. I’m sure you understand the principle of no governance without representation. Well, these are the facts pointing the principle being ignored. That is the problem.

                      Do you see it?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 May 2013 at 12:17 pm

                      OK, I see that arrangement as being problematic. Is it Ngai Tahu’s corporate arm which is represented or their tribal arm?

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 12:38 pm

                      Yes it is problematic.

                      In addtion, the point you intimate re conflicts of interest has been front page here too. As mentioned way up thread somewhere I mentioned that this crops up in dicussion with people in various positions in the rebuild and the city generally. It has been noticed and is news. It needs to be dealt with – both the conflict of interest (chinese walls, yeah right), but much much much more importantly the governance without representation.

                      It is wrong and unsustainable. A couple of links (more concentrated on the lesser though still important issue of conflict of interest)…

                      http://www.ngaitahu.iwi.nz/News/Media/Media-Releases/2013/Leadership-Recovery-and-Rebuild.php

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/the-rebuild/8588335/Ngai-Tahu-to-meet-CBD-property-owners

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 1:18 pm

                      your beef is with central or local government numbnuts not the iwi – sheesh talk about myopic.

                      on another point your excessive use of the word cunt – it reminds me that there are no demeaning terms for ‘woman’ in the Māori language, and that the first human was a woman – Hine-ahu-one, and that as all come from women at birth, at death the same occurs through Hine-nui-te-pō, and that Papa-tū-ā-nuku is our earth mother and sustainer of life and that women are mediators of tapu. Thanks for reminding me of these things vto even though you were trying to insult.

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 1:32 pm

                      Is that it? Is that your answer? That my beef is with Council and Government? You haven’t even addressed the issue.

                      As I said way to you back at the very start – go stick your head back in the sand dumbfuck.

                      lol

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 1:38 pm

                      umm it answers your question doesn’t it? That is what you wanted isn’t it?

                      Maybe you could go on another rant like this one to get your point across

                      Say goodbye to Nanny State

                    • vto …
                      19 May 2013 at 1:43 pm

                      lol, issue number 1 dealt with.

                      next issue coming soon to a standard screen near you (perhaps the fundamental flaws in the treaty?)….

                      but that’s it for now, I’m off to better spend my energy. See ya rude prick.

                    • marty mars …
                      19 May 2013 at 1:48 pm

                      lol bye bye ‘sob’ ‘sob’

                      another one for my list I think

                    • marty mars …
                      20 May 2013 at 1:29 pm

                      For those who wish to understand a little context around vto and his insults

                      http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/i-dont-tolerate-race-baiters.html

  11. ghostrider888 11
    17 May 2013 at 3:56 pm

    “aged care, dementia, diabetes and heart disease”; the future’s so bright, we gotta wear shades. http://www.bayofplentytimes.co.nz/news/budgets-focus-on-key-issues-pleases-dhb/1871837/

  12. fambo 12
    17 May 2013 at 4:20 pm

    The superb investigative journalist Jeremy Scagill is being interviewed by Kim Hill on National Radio tomorrow morning. His specialty is the American government being allowed to assassinate anyone it wants to, even Americans. It should be fascinating if you haven’t followed this before.

    • Morrissey 12.1
      17 May 2013 at 8:11 pm

      That’s a must-listen. Scahill is a brilliant and uncompromising speaker. I’ve seen him transform the Letterman and John Stewart shows from shallow laugh-fests into serious discussions, simply by the moral force of his message, backed up by his compelling personal style. That rarely happens on American television, and it’s even rarer on British television.

  13. Morrissey 13
    17 May 2013 at 4:38 pm

    Laughingly reproaching the pizza-guzzling sybarites of Gaza
    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Friday 17 May 2013
    Finlay Macdonald, Denise L’estrange-Corbet, Simon Pound

    That brief resurgence in quality on this programme that I noted a couple of weeks ago is well and truly over and done with. The situation reached its nadir on Tuesday when Jim Mora’s guests were the brutal right wing “pundit” John Bishop and the right wing beer writer and self-styled “wit” Neil Miller, but today’s guests, while they are clearly more humane and decent individuals than Bishop and Miller, are not much better when it comes to discussing serious issues. Look at how they trivialize and scoff at the situation of the besieged residents of Gaza…..

    FINLAY MACDONALD: That was David Bowie with “Lady Grinning Soul” from 1973. All right, it’s 3:45; time for Susan Baldacci with what the wooooooorld’s talking about!

    SUSAN BALDACCI: News today of the kind of thing being smuggled through the tunnels from Egypt into Gaza! Of course there are many of these tunnels.

    FINLAY MACDONALD: These tunnels are from Sinai, aren’t they.

    SUSAN BALDACCI: Yes. They smuggle all SORTS of items through them, and you know what? You can order a pizza for thirty dollars!

    SIMON POUND: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    SUSAN BALDACCI: When you think of what they are needing, and THAT is what they want!?!?!?!?!!!???

    SIMON POUND: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    FINLAY MACDONALD: The pizza would be cold, by the time it got to them, wouldn’t it?

    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: [sniffily] I wouldn’t order a pizza if I was in Gaza.

    SUSAN BALDACCI: Yeah, well, that’s what they want. When you think of what they SHOULD be ordering….

    4:25 p.m. As I write this, I am listening to that mealy-mouthed twit Simon Pound trying to defend John Key’s latest offensive remarks. This time Key has described the situation of Christchurch people as “some hard-luck stories at a micro level.”

    Pound is an intelligent and perceptive fellow, but he is quite clearly afraid to voice his real feelings.

    • North 13.1
      17 May 2013 at 6:56 pm

      Thought of your rage Morrissey as I listened to this but could swear I heard not “pizza” but “Kentucky Fried”. A bucket of the same delivered via the tunnels in 4 hours – $US30. Anyway, the tone I detected was a little mockingly amused, especially from Baldacci as I recall. I exclude Macdonald from that.

      Put me in mind of transiting in Manila in 1977, a National Youth Council group of 20 “Young Workers” bound for China. I guess few of them have maintained their then much vaunted “leftiness”. But then there are a number of horrid examples of that – Rob Campbell (Ports of Auckland) for example.

      As the aircraft taxied to the terminal we observed the meanest shacks dotted in the banana palms not 100 metres from the runway – TV aerials poking up into the air.

      Several of my fellows expressed judgment thus – “Look at that, they’re as poor as hell and they’ve got televisions !” (“Tut Tut Tut !” sort of thing). No walking in the mocassins there.

      Sadly, I was not terribly well supported when I aggressively expressed my disgust with that tone. Some might say there’s still little maturity in Mr North nearly 40 years on but I’d like to think I was capable even then of appreciating that when people are grindingly poor and deprived we should not reflexively clutch our pearls when a little succour is taken wherever it can be found. At least try to walk in the mocassins maybe.

      Perhaps clever wee laughies radio-girl Baldaccci would benefit from a spell in Gaza when the Zionists fly over dropping death on children.

      • Morrissey 13.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 7:50 pm

        1.) Thought of your rage Morrissey as I listened to this but could swear I heard not “pizza” but “Kentucky Fried”.

        You are of course correct, my friend. In mitigation, I must say that I was driving and therefore could not scribble down any transcript in my usual manner, and so I was forced to rely on my (imperfect) recall.

        2.) A bucket of the same delivered via the tunnels in 4 hours – $US30. Anyway, the tone I detected was a little mockingly amused, especially from Baldacci as I recall. I exclude Macdonald from that.

        You’ve got that exactly right. Last year Susan Baldacci sneered at Sean Penn for “cuddling up to the likes of Hugo Chávez”; twenty years ago I am sure she was condemning other celebrities for cuddling up to Nelson Mandela. Balducci is very similar to another American on Radio NZ, Marty Duda: superficially affable, but just below the surface there is a vat of completely unexamined prejudices bubbling away. Duda’s right wing rancour boiled over hilariously late last year when he launched into an ignorant and disconnected radio rant against my Lancastrian namesake (the singer).

        3.) Put me in mind of transiting in Manila in 1977, a National Youth Council group of 20 “Young Workers” bound for China. I guess few of them have maintained their then much vaunted “leftiness”. But then there are a number of horrid examples of that – Rob Campbell (Ports of Auckland) for example.

        This prick?…
        http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/lunch-boardroom-rob-campbell-gb-123023

        I have a book with a picture of this glib scumbag in his PYM days, posing with a rifle. Campbell the revolutionary foot-soldier-cum-Guinness Peat director.

        4.) As the aircraft taxied to the terminal we observed the meanest shacks dotted in the banana palms not 100 metres from the runway – TV aerials poking up into the air.

        Several of my fellows expressed judgment thus – “Look at that, they’re as poor as hell and they’ve got televisions !” (“Tut Tut Tut !” sort of thing). No walking in the mocassins there.

        Sadly, I was not terribly well supported when I aggressively expressed my disgust with that tone.

        I hear those sentiments every time I listen to squawk radio, which I haven’t done for a long time now. The withdrawal programme is working. (I’m pretending, for the sake of argument, that Radio NZ’s Panel is qualitatively different to the commercial chat. Really, though, there’s little to separate them.)

        5.) Perhaps clever wee laughies radio-girl Baldaccci would benefit from a spell in Gaza when the Zionists fly over dropping death on children.

        I’m sure she’d still find something whimsical, like KFC deliveries via tunnels, to distract her audience in the usual manner.

        • North 13.1.1.1
          17 May 2013 at 8:47 pm

          True. The “superiority” of RNZ is marked only by the absence of fulsomely excited, breathless exhortations to make our lives fabulous by “popping on down to wherever to get whatever – open 7 days…….”. And discordant jingles.

          The saving grace to that carry-on, infuriating as it is, is that at least it doesn’t make light of appalling inhumanity, as is Gaza.

        • felix 13.1.1.2
          19 May 2013 at 1:18 pm

          Your Lancastrian namesake deserves any amount of crap that’s thrown at him.

  14. The Al1en 14
    17 May 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Reports of UFO activity over Hamilton last night.
    Wasn’t me, I don’t fly any more.

  15. xtasy 15
    17 May 2013 at 7:09 pm

    nobody here or anywhere else in nz will bother, and will not know for a start, as today, starting 11 am outside vector arena in auckland city, off quay st, there was a massive and vocal protest by aaap, by various unions (unite, first union, sfu and so), same as some community groups, to protest against the budget by the nat government not delivering much or anything to the poor and unemployed. there was a lot of media presence, all leading tv stations had sent cameras, there was a lot of upheaval, with some protestors trying to push their way into a convention or meeting hearing pm john key, to speak to the hundreds of attending cross tasman and pacific business people. most business people turned up in taxis, expensive vehicles and with suits and ties, and they faced a barrage of challenging chants and so forth. one person got arrested for dubious reasons, and was later released from the watchhouse at auckland central police station at 2 pm, with no charge laid. supporters were there to welcome him. there was no mention at all in the media, be this radio nz’s checkpoint, the leading tv stations or so about this. it seems the business lobby run and control the media in nz solidly. it is clear that they frown on protestors and dissenters, and the arrogance and demeanour of those that went to this meeting at vector arena spoke volumes. so we have a society here in nz, that is oligopolist, monopolits in some areas, and where an elite run and rule, they even determine government by financial and other support. they have control over the media, so they refrain from reporting what people do and say, and protest about. this is practically a dictatorship here in nz, but most are ignorant and complacent, relying on a fool’s belief that they still have some say in what they want.

    so that is it, the truth, but i am only a stupid migrant, always have been treated wit h some contempt by locals, so why should i care a shit about a shit country like nz.

    • Murray Olsen 15.1
      18 May 2013 at 7:41 pm

      Some of my best friends are stupid migrants. I’d probably treat you OK.

      • xtasy 15.1.1
        19 May 2013 at 1:42 am

        Sorry, Murray, I get my bad moments, and I have not had an easy lot, still trying to get some major issues addressed by “Commissioners” of sorts, holding office, most appointed by Nat governments.

        Apart from that I thank you for your tolerance towards my “rant”.

        I am working on a number of issues, personal and not so personal. So I am at times also joining forces at the frontline, and the Vector Arena protest or pickets was one good experience. Sad to see and hear the MSM have little time for the ordinary folk here, born and bred Kiwis or migrants.

        We will keep up the struggle, as that is a moral mission kind of. I would hate to be on the side of the mercenaries and foot soldiers of this system, rewarding a few, that frown on the rest, no matter where it happens in the world.

        • Murray Olsen 15.1.1.1
          19 May 2013 at 3:02 am

          No apologies required. We would be less than human if we didn’t feel a bit down now and then.

  16. Mary 16
    17 May 2013 at 7:15 pm

    Listening to Annette King give attempting to give the government a dressing down over the way its dealing with the issue of paying parents who care for their disabled adult children was truly sickening. The initial claim was made when Labour were the government and they rejected it outright. And now Annette King thinks she can take the moral high ground on the issue. Well, Annette, you need to just shut the fuck up on this matter. You and your mates have no right to call foul on this whatsoever. Ryall simply continued with the dirty work that you began, and now you think you can bag him for that? Total hypocrisy. Just sickening. Apologise for what you did, or keep your mouth shut.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2555505/government-accused-of-shonky-process-over-family-carers-bill.asx

  17. ianmac 17
    17 May 2013 at 8:19 pm

    “Was Aaron Gilmore an inside job.”
    Check out the Daily Blog.
    If this is true it is pretty nasty stuff and a disaster for Democracy.
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/05/17/was-aaron-gilmore-an-inside-political-hit-job/

    • karol 17.1
      17 May 2013 at 8:34 pm

      Yes. I saw that. The first question in my mind was, why did Hooton drop that information into the public arena?

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1
        17 May 2013 at 8:47 pm

        Now that’s thinking.

        I suspect the answer is that he’s with (being paid by) a different faction than the one which set up Gilmore.

      • Anne 17.1.2
        17 May 2013 at 10:08 pm

        why did Hooton drop that information into the public arena?

        Because he’s a Steven Joyce supporter? Now if CV has it right, then that really makes it interesting doesn’t it.

  18. xtasy 18
    17 May 2013 at 8:43 pm

    Perhaps rub this under your Kiwi noses also, maybe not quite mainstream as you like:

    Many a movements not necessarily recognised.

  19. xtasy 19
    17 May 2013 at 9:05 pm

    a dead body taken apart, that is of a revolutionary, and they would do the same in cowardly nz, rest assured:

  20. ak 20
    17 May 2013 at 9:15 pm

    Well well well.

    So the Keyster’s “tentacles” comment is forgotten, and the TPPA is not anti-China – despite what Obama explicitly stated.

    And yet.

    Kiwi mutton rotting on Chinese wharves.

    Thanks tories.

    Our self-appointed master-class strikes again.

    The rule of Hone Nice-but-Dim, in the forgotten land of Shonkey Python.

  21. xtasy 21
    17 May 2013 at 9:15 pm

    See and learn about the true history and course of events in the Chilean dictatorship, overthrowing Salvador Allende, if anybody in rather indifferent nz bothers to care. oh, sorry the first letter of chilean was misspelled in caps again. sorry lprent, i am working on it:

  22. xtasy 22
    17 May 2013 at 9:27 pm

    Viva, el pueblo, not in stupid cowardly and brainwashed NZ, a crap country with too many cowards living here!!!

    Por el pueblo en latin america y international, fuerca …

  23. xtasy 23
    17 May 2013 at 9:44 pm

    international workers songs, perhaps de chile:

    history lesson, must learn material, especially for NZ workers and engaged!

  24. xtasy 24
    17 May 2013 at 9:57 pm

    Vina del mar de chile another great concert, only dreamt about for such events in nz:

  25. xtasy 25
    17 May 2013 at 10:13 pm

    The Standard may well be losing the credit it deserves, to be independent and strong on that on the left, but I fear (sorry the caps) it is becoming another mainstream media turnout. I wish it won’t but we will have to see.

    enjoy or not

  26. Gosman 26
    19 May 2013 at 2:28 am

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/05/17/bathroom-blues-venezuelas-toilet-paper-crisis/

    Food for thought for the supporters of the Green/Labour plans for electricity prices.

    I especially like this bit ‘But socialist President Nicolás Maduro (who was hand-picked by Chavez to succeed him) blamed the toilet paper shortage on “anti-government forces,”’

    • Murray Olsen 26.1
      19 May 2013 at 2:59 am

      He’s right. If they imprisoned all the traitors, RWNJs, and media barons, there’d be far less shit floating about. We must learn from them that kindness to your enemy might win points in heaven, but if you want a clean bum, get rid of the right wingers. Of course, if Key decided to take a trip to Venezuela, he could always take you and Slater along and he’d never even notice the shortage.

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