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Open mike 18/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 18th, 2022 - 107 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

107 comments on “Open mike 18/06/2022 ”

  1. Jenny how to get there 1

    In his latest speech, Putin declares Europe to be a colony of the US imperialists.

    That this old world order is now over.

    Personally I think Putin is overstating the case of Europe's subservience to US imperialism. Putin is overstating the power and influence of US imperialism for his own imperialist motives.

    In my opinion this is a declaration of war of one imperialist bloc against another.

    Putin thinks the US is in decline and that it is Russia's turn to be the global hegemonic power.

    Putin may be right about the first part, but wrong about the second. In my opinion; The world does not need another hegemonic power. The age of imperialism and war needs to come to an end.


  2. weka 2

    Every week there are multiple important issues being reported about gender identity ideology and its impact on society. Almost none of it is being discussed in NZ except occasionally in MSM, or in antagonistic exchanges online. Most of what I am reading comes from feminists in the UK, predominantly left wing or centre left. I’ve been told I shouldn’t be talking about this on TS because this is a labour movement aligned blog, but these are fundamental issues that are part of class analysis. Sex sits alongside ethnicity and socioeconomics as the three great axes of class oppression and resistance and liberation.

    One of the most serious aspects is the huge rise in the number of girls seeking to transition in the UK. Gender ideology applauded this, feminists are saying wtaf, girls hate their sexed bodies so much they’d rather have radical surgery and lifetime hormonal treatment than be a gender non conforming girl or lesbian.

    NZ Labour just increased funding for transition. This wouldn’t be a problem except for the No Debate and affirmation only political positions that mean medical and psychological services are under pressure to not provide alternative care for distressed youth. If you want to see how badly this can go, read this.

    Alternate link in case that goes behind a paywall https://archive.ph/iG971

    • weka 2.1

      If you are bothered by that being in a conservative paper, understand that the liberal press refused to cover these issues for many years.

      • weka 2.1.1

    • pat 2.2

      What percentage of people have the inclination, necessity or bandwidth to devote their attention to this in the current environment do you think?

      • weka 2.2.1

        It’s a political choice. People here have plenty of energy for the war in the Ukraine, or another round of bullshit from Nact.

        Obviously it matters more to women. And gay people.

        • pat

          Id suggest the overwhelming majority of people dont consider it is or will be an issue for them and if it ever was they would deal with it in their own manner, if they ever consider it at all……meanwhile there is a roof to put over the head and mouths to feed.

          • Sabine

            maybe people should consider for the following reasons

            a. this is tax payer funded surgery – no matter if it goes well or not

            b. the issues stemming from these tax payer funded surgeries and the need for further medical intervention will and is already paid for by the tax payer

            c. these surgeries are coming with a hefty carbon foot print

            d. these children will be the adults of tomorrow – but then why would anyone alive today complain about that, right it does not affect us here today.

            e. like with Contergan in Germany it took a while for the medical establishment to understand and accept the side effects of Contergan – the children with no arms. legs and hands protruding from their shoulders, deformed feet etc etc etc, but eventually it got to much, these kids were suddenly everywhere, and people could see the harm and were rightfully shocked by deformities these children were born with due to a pill that should have been taken of the shelf much earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide_scandal

            f. some – quite a few actually, detransition later in life to find themselves 'nullified' if their genital surgery went fucked beyond believe (i.e. no gentials at all just a urethra), or in need of revisions to keep depth (neo vagina) or in need for a liposuction (if the fake penis is made of upper leg skin/tissues as that is where women (the born ones) typically grow fat – this is for the ones that value girth over length or something, or with life time issues in their arm that provided the tissue/skin/nerve material for a fake penis . Never mind the infections, sepsis etc etc etc. All tax payer funded, and every revision and fixings of another medical problem is too.

            I get it, no one cares about males in female prisons, no one cares about males in female sport, or males in female changing rooms. After all this benefits males at the expense of woman (born women) . Something the left and some on the right are quite happy about this. Born women are just low testosterone men, and thus are exactly! (TM) the same as men. No difference between Mum n Dad, no siree, and all that is tax payer funded.

            In the meantime we warehouse our homeless who have no roof over their heads to the cost of a million a day in rundown motels. We hand out 300.000 + food grants for people who can’t feed their families and so on and so forth.

            So while you don't mind getting kids castrated and sterilised before they even have a notion of sex, lust, orgasm, and maybe reproduction, you might mind the cost that is carried by you, and everyone else around you.

            • pat

              When it touches peoples lives they will devote attention to it…as with everything…until then it remains an academic exercise with no expectation of personal impact.

              How many devote their time and energy to researching/discussing/advocating on rare cancers?….those that do have personal experience or academic interest….the wider public dont.

            • Molly

              Thanks, Sabine.

              The impact on the ongoing health budget, and the consequential reduction in other areas should be discussed more.

              Life time hormonal supplements and dealing with the resultant side effects comes at a high cost.

              NZ state provision of trans affirming surgeries is either:

              1. Cosmetic surgery (Why?)

              2. Life-saving surgery (How?)

              This is a huge medical intervention budget, that will result in burgeoning future healthcare requirements for those 'treated'. And declining budgets for others relying on the system for treatment.

        • Incognito

          I can see two sides to this.

          One is that any topic or issue ranks somewhere on a ladder of priorities and importance & relevance. It is a personal and political choice to devote attention to it and ‘the cause’. This is often seen as a zero-sum game because of our limited attention spans and time constraints, et cetera.

          The other one is that arguably this specific topic area links directly with even bigger and longstanding issue that ought to pique the attention and interest of many more progressively minded people, e.g. here on TS. In other words, it is not mutually exclusive and not a zero-sum game, but rather quite the opposite.

          It seems to me that the division seemingly into two camps is artificial, unnecessary, and possibly even deliberate, i.e. divide and conquer. The latter raises the question of cui bono?

          • weka

            neoliberalism and the death cult stands to gain.

            Didn't really understand what you are meaning. If you mean there are two sides in the gender/sex wars, then yes, broadly there are. On TS isn't not necessary, people can argue whatever they want. Thing that I find surprising is people going 'oh I tried to say something and got knocked back, so I won't bother again'. I've seen that before but it does seem to be a feature of this debate, as if suddenly people don't want to debate.

            • Incognito

              neoliberalism and the death cult stands to gain.

              And who are they? People of flesh & blood or figments of the imagination?

              Didn't really understand what you are meaning.

              It’s slightly concerning that you of all people here seem to struggle with understanding what others are saying in this space. So, let me try again, because it was my direct response to what pat and you had said.

              As I see it, some view the “gender/sex wars” through a reductionist lens as an isolated issue. As such, one can fairly easily choose to take or leave (dismiss) it. I think this represents pat’s view.

              Others may view these wars through a holistic lens as (directly or inextricably) linked to larger issues such as class war, as you pointed out @ 2. As such, one cannot easily ignore and dismiss “gender/sex wars”. I believe this represents your view.


              As an aside, I read of No Debate, women-only spaces, and some perceptions of people not feeling welcome to join the debate (e.g. STFU or scroll on) and it is clear that nothing is clear, that confusion is ubiquitous, and mixed messages are the rule rather than the exception. I’ll leave it for others to judge whether this is an accurate description of ‘the lay of the land’, and, if so, whether it is positive.

              These debates are the most highly charged of all, quite possibly because we’re all implicated, one way or another, at a more direct personal level, whether we like it or not. This may also be the reason why this is one of the most difficult issues to debate well and why people disengage, perhaps simultaneously swaying from the holistic view to the more reductionist singular issue PoV in a the-glass-is-half-empty-or-the-glass-is-half-full kinda binary manner.

              • pat

                Physician heal thyself.

              • roblogic

                It's a controversy in every space: culture, politics, religion, medicine, sex, education, philosophy, and personal identity. And when children (or sports!) are involved people get emotional, unable to explore the issues in a fair minded way. Social media has made an issue that should be a rarefied specialist area of medicine into a toxic culture war.

                It is a symptom of a wider identity crisis and loss of unifying narratives within the culture.

                (Not to worry, the imperial corporate-military media have created a sparkly new cult for everyone!)

              • Sacha

                It is a holistic part of regressive efforts to relitigate social change over the last 60 years. That the same arguments are now being turned against gay and lesbian minorities is no surprise. Migrants and disabled people can't be far behind. Fear and othering are easy to tap into when people do not see the bigger picture.

                  • weka

                    What Sacha fails to even acknowledge is that lesbians have been losing a lot of ground because of GI. Australia is on the cusp of making it illegal for lesbians to exclude males who identify as a woman from gatherings, spaces etc.

                    Self-ID means that any man can say they are a woman at any time. It's not tied to birth certificates, it's tied to social mores.

                    Lesbians get banned from lesbian dating apps for saying they only want to date females. This is a safety issue, and it's also a rape culture issue. GI says that a man who identifies as a woman and as a lesbian is a woman and a lesbian. There is no such thing as female homosexuality after that.

                    It's true there is a conservative push against liberal gains of recent decades. And it's true that GI is *also removing women's rights at an alarming pace, and some left wing men are supporting this.

                    It's utter bullshit to suggest the problem is only progressive/conservative.

                    • Incognito

                      Don’t really want to comment on the specific commenter other than to say that if he (an intelligent and genuine contributor here who, as far as I can judge, has much in common with you) and you cannot have a constructive discussion about this then there’s little hope left for a wider debate. I’ll leave it at that.

                      I’m gobsmacked if lesbians or anybody else for that matter cannot choose whom they want to date on dating apps. I did read the article in The Australian but it said nothing about dating apps!?

                    • weka

                      It's not if, it's already happening and has been for some time. The reason you don't know about it is because gender identity activists have been so successful with No Debate. I know about it because I listen to lesbians talking about it on twitter. There is a huge amount of discussion there about this.

                      Don’t really want to comment on the specific commenter other than to say that if he (an intelligent and genuine contributor here who, as far as I can judge, has much in common with you) and you cannot have a constructive discussion about this then there’s little hope left for a wider debate. I’ll leave it at that.

                      Sacha believes that we are hijacking a labour movement blog. He has repeatedly misrepresented my views and mansplained feminism to me. Then he leaves and won't debate. He's a clear and compassionate thinking person generally, I have no useful explanation for why he is so poor on this and at presenting a coherent argument for his position but instead resorts to the above.

                      I'm pointing this out because this is a fairly consistent pattern within the war. GC women are open to informed debate. Gender identity people often aren't. I'm quite capable of a constructive conversation, you would have to take it up with him as to why he is not.

                      Beyond that, in the UK women just got on with organising, and that included constructive conversation. Left wing men can take themselves out of the conversation and women will just carry on without them. The debate isn't dependent on them, and can absolutely carry on. In the UK once people understood what was happening, the debate broadened significantly. That hasn't happened in NZ yet.

                    • Incognito []

                      I have no desire to meddle in a stoush between you and another commenter. Personally, I think it can be resolved, even amicably, if both persons would wish this.

                      The topic (of GI wars) has indeed not crossed my radar, for various reasons.

                      NZ is a fairly small and isolated pool of people, which can be a curse or a blessing.

                      Personally, I don’t think unilateral debate and outcomes of that (decisions) is a viable way; at some stage others will have to be brought alongside, which is a description of inclusive leadership.

                    • weka

                      bit of a sore point. After years of watching feminists stop writing here because of the lack of support and because of antagonism from less progressive men, we now have to contend with progressive men actively working against us being here. I can easily write half a dozen posts right now about gender critical issues including what's been happening to lesbians. The reasons why I'm not are important. They're also the reason you and other didn't know about lesbian dating apps.

                      TWAW means any man who says he is a woman is a woman. That's the end of women's spaces, women's positions, women's sports (although there's been some progress on pushing back on that), women's safety, women's politics, and lesbianism.

                    • Incognito []

                      Yes, I know it has been a sore point for you for some time and I’m sorry to hear that.

                      As I observe it, there seems to be a high level of confusion and mutual misunderstanding here on TS about these sorts of things. This has created a perception and thus a confirmation bias that there’s been a gap opening between feminists and progressive men on this site. Of course, there may always be a gap but not necessarily one that cannot be bridged with some respect, honesty & integrity, and whole lot of hard work to really understand what each side is saying (and not saying). Instead of closing/bridging the gap one side has pretty much walked away, the other is about to walk away and very few are left to hold the candle and continue. That doesn’t seem a sustainable situation to me. Best thing is if people could leave their baggage at the door and start afresh but I don’t think that’s realistic (even though I’m a dreamer).

                      I feel very much like an impartial observer here looking in …

                    • joe90

                      The article and Ms Hoyle's release.

                      Twelve months on and nothing about the appeal.

                      https://archive.ph/9g0x4 (the australian)


                    • weka

                      As I observe it, there seems to be a high level of confusion and mutual misunderstanding here on TS about these sorts of things.

                      Not sure about that. There really are left wing men who believe that TWAW and therefore should be treated as women and women don't get to have say in that. The position by those men on TS is the same as elsewhere. It's not a misunderstanding, it's a fundamental disagreement.

                      This has created a perception and thus a confirmation bias that there’s been a gap opening between feminists and progressive men on this site.

                      Not really. There are other progressive men on TS who don't have a problem with feminists debating GI issues.

                      Instead of closing/bridging the gap one side has pretty much walked away, the other is about to walk away and very few are left to hold the candle and continue.

                      Who is about to walk away?

                      There are plenty of GI advocates here. In fact I would say there are more here talking about those issues now than in the past.

              • weka

                been trying to get back to this for days 🙂

                And who are they? People of flesh & blood or figments of the imagination?

                I was thinking of the system. In which various people play various parts, and get various benefits or detriments. If the left hacks itself to death over liberalism, neoliberalism laughs all the way to the bank.

                It’s slightly concerning that you of all people here seem to struggle with understanding what others are saying in this space. So, let me try again, because it was my direct response to what pat and you had said.

                I always appreciate people clarifying, and it's not uncommon for me to not understand what people are saying here. So thanks for doing that.

                the sex/gender war is easily the most difficult and the weirdest thing I've ever seen in politics.

                • Incognito

                  Ok, thanks.

                  I agree that liberal thinking is engrained in the system and institutionalised, with all the negative impacts and outcomes that this causes, but I think it is mistake to fight a nameless and faceless system, rage against the machine. We should apply more surgical precision in trying to affect progressive change, hence the cui bono?

                  The system is a human construct, enabled by and enabling people, but the weird thing is that both beneficiaries and victims seem to be stuck on it (aka TINA) because they don’t know any(thing) better.

                  Fair comment about asking for clarification (aka when in doubt, ask).

                  The sex/gender wars do my head it, TBH. It does affect all of us to various degrees but the level of engagement runs from one extreme to the other polar opposite with a huge apathetic (and confused?) mass in between.

                  • weka

                    The system is a human construct, enabled by and enabling people, but the weird thing is that both beneficiaries and victims seem to be stuck on it (aka TINA) because they don’t know any(thing) better.

                    Completely agree. Although another dynamic there is people whose politics want system change, but whose personal comfort is ok under neoliberalism and likely to change significantly if we went to a better system. Or they perceive they would lose out because they cannot imagine anything better where everyone’s needs are met. Hence lots of NZers want the housing crisis solved but won't vote for the Greens who would change the system so that the housing crisis can be solved.

                    Add in the pressures of the pandemic and looming climate crisis and many people are hunkering down rather then stepping into proactive change. I suspect that part of identity politics is entangled in that. It's easy enough to support LGBTI+ on twitter for instance. Makes one feel progressive, but there is a dearth of actual organising around the class issues (sex and socioeconomic. Ethnicity in NZ seems to be doing somewhat better given the influence of Māori in parliament).

                    I agree that liberal thinking is engrained in the system and institutionalised, with all the negative impacts and outcomes that this causes, but I think it is mistake to fight a nameless and faceless system, rage against the machine. We should apply more surgical precision in trying to affect progressive change, hence the cui bono?

                    I don't see it as nameless and faceless. Labour are obviously running a neoliberal agenda tempered by social democracy and the politics of wellbeing within a country that is now largely neoliberal. It's good they're doing this rather than just straight out neoliberal centrism, but it's still BAU and blocking change. Labour benefit as a party, pro-neoliberalism MPs benefit, the middle classes benefit and so on. Neoliberalism (the system) is adept at colonising the left. Feminists started naming this in the 90s. The increasingly neoliberal mainstream took the bits of the feminist agenda it liked and could live with and integrated it and established it as the bona fide feminism.

                    Hence we have liberal feminism, choice feminism, lipstick feminism and so on. It's a feminism of how to be ok within the dominant paradigm. They're not feminisms that seek to liberate women by dismantling the patriarchy.

                    The overlaps between GI and liberal feminism are large and strong.

                    • Incognito

                      Catch-up mode.

                      Neoliberalism is indeed giving many the illusion of prosperity and wellbeing. This same illusion feeds into our collective delusion that although things are not ‘optimal’ yet and now, with a bit more time and patience things will be(come) better and for more people. This is the golden promise of the brighter future ahead that’s within reach of all as long as they work hard, have the right values, make the right decisions and take the right responsibility, et cetera.

                      Because neoliberalism is engrained and institutionalised, with a huge bureaucratic system behind it, it is the daily reality. For things to change one needs a couple of things: 1) a realisation that BAU is not ok and that change is needed; 2) a vision of a better alternative; 3) a mission on how to achieve the vision. I fear that many are losing confidence in the democratic and political processes and that the diminishing trust and hope will block any meaningful change. Our individual and atomised sense of helplessness, of not being in control or having very little influence over our lives, is growing into a collective Zeitgeist of the same negative feelings and general apathy. Only through an effective political and democratic process of some description (i.e. not the current version) can we hope to achieve a sense of empowerment to affect change and control our destiny.

                      It is worth noting that giving individuals or groupings in society a sense of empowerment is always resisted the most because once the gate/door is opened a little bit ‘all Hell will break lose’. Empowering people, all people, at all levels of society, that’s where our efforts should be, IMO. And I don’t think this is anything new of profound either.

      • weka 2.2.2

        Unclear if this is your inference (that people aren’t interested because cost of living crisis, covid etc), but two things

        1. No Debate was an active strategy and was incredibly successful
        2. the issues weren’t being widely discussed before covid and current global crises.
        • pat

          Dont think I could be much clearer…its a non issue for people, and if it became one they would deal with it when the time came.

          • Shanreagh

            I am also a person Pat. A female person. It is definitely not a non issue for me as a female person any more than equal pay for work of equal value, access to abortion anywhere around the world is a non issue. Is it because it may be an issue that is sometimes cared about and expounded on by women that it is a a non issue. I had actually thought that issues being divided intoot big world issues (men) and little domestic type issues (women) had gone long ago. If not then they should have gone ……

            Issues are issues. some issues affect or interest different sets of people but they all affect us as human beings

            Enough of this tyranny of others deciding who can speak and what they can speak on. Didn't this go out with the Ark as well.

            Onward with the discussion …….the fact that some do not like the populace drawing attention to the fact that sometimes the Emperor has no clothes should be reason to stop us speaking out.

  3. Molly 3


    I'm included in 'people', Pat, and this is just some of what 'the issue' is for me:

    1. The affirmative healthcare approach that has received additional funding has now had clinical reviews in several countries. Where this has happened, they have all concluded the net result is harm, and adjusted their treatment accordingly.

    2. Any therapy funded will be affirmation only, not high quality exploratory, because the culture and the incoming 'conversion therapy' bill so celebrated by the not-bothered people, will actually facilitate the pathway to medical interventions whether appropriate for the individual or not.

    3. There are psychological and mental health impacts of hormone treatment, often being given at a time of significant brain growth and maturation. This has consequences often ignored in discussions. Another impact on future well-being and health care needs.

    4. What is the difference between a young man wanting breast augmentation, and a young woman of the same age wanting the same surgery? One will quality for augmentation under affirmative healthcare, the other will not. It becomes very clear what a woman is here.

    5. As a result of the difference of biological sex, the hormonal impact on female transitioners is significant. Most male transitioners retain their genitalia, and if so, have a high likelihood of being able to come off their hormonal treatment and retain both full sexual function (which they may have retained anyway) and their fertility. Females, however, will undergo, medically induced menopause, with all it's congruent impacts. They will experience vaginal atrophy, with the possibility of pain during intercourse. The interruption of hormones to their sexual organs, often results in constant pain, which leads onto further surgeries to relieve that pain, including hysterectomies and oophorectomies. Both of which ensure infertility, and will affect the production of female hormones. The oophorectomy will ensure that from that point on, the woman will require synthetic hormone treatment for the rest of their life, even if they detransition. The future cost is locked in. The same is true for men who have an orchidectomy.

    6. Not only is this medical care a concern, we are funding the promulgation of this approach in schools, NGO organisations, government departments, and institutions – ensuring that more will be encouraged to seek such treatments.

    There is a wealth of reasons why this needs to be discussed on political platforms. There is also for many a benefit here, in seeing how this topic is treated and #NoDebate is achieved by social monitoring.

    How this plays out in wider public discourse can be found here in a 2019 article on Transgender Trend which prints a letter that two GIDS professionals sent to the Guardian:


    "At the end of our tethers, in the summer of 2017, we wrote this letter and sent it to the ‘Do you know what I’m really thinking?’ column at the Guardian. Although only a couple of years ago, this was a different time. Gender critical therapists did not yet exist, publicly at least. We thought we would lose our careers if anyone traced it back to us. In fact, we were so paranoid that we posted the letter so it would never be traced. One of us then called the Guardian news desk.

    Then we sat back and waited. And waited. Our experiences of speaking out to colleagues had already left us fearing that people would label us transphobic and so ignore our concerns. The Guardian’s total lack of response, at the time, to what we thought was mind-changing information confirmed to us that we were on our own. "

  4. Muttonbird 4

    Regarding the Auckland mayoralty poll, Farrar and the Taxdodgers Union are not speaking directly to voters, they are speaking to the three far-right/centre-right candidates, urging one or more of them to pull out. He is deliberately suggestive in a post on his blog.

    That is how they are interfering.

  5. Molly 5

    This is not a win for dignity and respect for any elderly woman compelled to share her personal living space with someone of the opposite sex, in a designated single-sex space.


    In the spring of 2021, a social worker at Pen Bay Medical Center contacted Sunrise on behalf of Ms. King, who at the time was a patient at the hospital. The facility initially said there was a room available, but upon learning that Ms. King is transgender Sunrise informed the hospital they would not admit her because she requested to reside in a room with a female roommate.

    GLAD thinks otherwise, of course:

    “The settlement in Ms. King’s case sends an unmistakable message that transgender older adults should be treated with dignity and respect when seeking long-term care services,” said GLAD senior attorney Ben Klein. “The joint resolution between the parties and the Maine Human Rights Commission makes clear that discriminating against an applicant because they are transgender violates the law, and the nondiscrimination Policy and LGBT-competency training required by this settlement are models for facilities across Maine and the nation to follow.”


  6. weka 6

    It seems to be a surprise to a lot of people that women actually value women only spaces.

  7. weka 7

    looks like replies aren't nesting. I'll let Lprent know.

  8. pat 8

    Reply tabs appear not to be working.

    @ Molly @3

    Yes you are 'people'…unless you are perhaps AI. Your potential concerns are as far as I can see are founded on overseas events and as stated when (the wider) people see direct impact on their lives you may get the engagement you desire….that does not appear to be the case currently….if you can point to evidence otherwise then your chances of getting that engagement will increase.

  9. Molly 9

    @pat 8.0

    Multiple times the NZ position and links have been provided. The thread included references to the the cost to the NZ health system.

    You may pretend that women here are not speaking of the impact on NZ youth. We have, and will continue to do so.

    The impact on women's rights in NZ is also happening here and now.

    This is a NZ societal problem, that is following the pattern of overseas countries in regards to #NoDebate, legislation and impacts. That is why overseas links are provided.

  10. pat 10

    I pretend nothing….it is not a concern that I perceive as requiring my attention (or that of anyone I know) nor does it appear to be a concern of anyone enough for it to be presented in the media, I have no accounts of any of this occurring here….all I see/hear is second hand interpretation of a stoush between (possibly academic) naval gazers half a world away….why would I devote any energy to it?

  11. Molly 11

    @pat 10.0

    Since you gather neither information nor insight from posts or comments on this topic, nor provide any, what is your intent in contributing?

  12. pat 12

    And therein lies the problem.

    I commented to this….

    "Every week there are multiple important issues being reported about gender identity ideology and its impact on society. Almost none of it is being discussed in NZ except occasionally in MSM, or in antagonistic exchanges online. Most of what I am reading comes from feminists in the UK, predominantly left wing or centre left. I’ve been told I shouldn’t be talking about this on TS because this is a labour movement aligned blog, but these are fundamental issues that are part of class analysis. Sex sits alongside ethnicity and socioeconomics as the three great axes of class oppression and resistance and liberation."

    a mistake I am unlikely to repeat…but you never know.

  13. RedLogix 13

    And just for the record – Poots openly embraces a Russian neo-colonial order. No ifs, no buts, no possible room for misinterpretation:

    Vladimir Putin last night heralded a "new world order" as he took potshots at the West in a speech to business leaders.

    The Russian tyrant said his country was a "powerful, sovereign nation" and claimed Moscow was entering a new era of dominance.

    "We will definitely use the colossal opportunities provided by current times and will be even stronger," he vowed in a speech at St Petersburg International Economic Forum.

    "It is obvious that the rules, the essence of the new world order, will be set by strong sovereign states," he said.

    Countries who resist are "doomed to remain rightless colonies", Putin added.

    Putin – whose speech was delayed by a cyber attack on the venue – said sanctions placed on Russia in the wake of its invasion of Ukraine were "mad and pointless".

    All the tankies here who claimed he was just a poor misunderstood boy can now slink off in shame. You know who you are.

    • aom 13.1

      Interesting comment RL – how did you read, " Poots openly embraces a Russian neo-colonial order" when the text goes on to say, "It is obvious that the rules, the essence of the new world order, will be set by strong sovereign states," he said."

      Incidentally, here is an alternative reporting of the same address. Seem to recall that other targets of your venom have expressed the view that the days of being corralled into a world where the US decides who is good and who is bad and who should live or who should die needs to end. The current 'world order' may have had been born of strong principles but they were corrupted long ago by the current 'colonial order'.

      As for your smug 'piece de resistance ', it may have applied if you had your facts straight, but would have been no less insulting.

    • In Vino 13.2

      Not impressive, RedLogix. Cherry-picking the bits you want (or did you just skim the biased selection of quotes given in our media?)

      I agree with aom, and see you as a more wishfully-thinking 'tankie' than even I used to be when I was young.

      This is now a very dangerous situation. Neither side willing to give in, and escalation possible.

      I don't think Putin was misunderstood: I think the USA was warned long ago by their own ambassador to Russia about how serious Putin and Russia were about the Ukraine.

      But, of course, in your rose-tinted eyes, the USA would never have meddled in Ukrainian affairs, would it?

      History will judge, if historians do not get wiped out with all the rest of us.

      • RedLogix 13.2.1

        This speech speaks for itself – that you would defend such blatant neo-colonialism tells all.

        • In Vino

          That you believe only one side is practising 'neo-colonialism' (I prefer to call it good old imperialism) also tells it all.

          Although this guy plods a bit, I take him as seriously as Al Jazeera’s pro-western slants.

          • RedLogix

            Constantly telling us how terrible the west is for all of its misdeeds in the past – while at the same time backing an imperial invasion of medieval barbarity happening right now, is the very definition of a traitorous bad faith hypocrisy.

            Mearscheimer get taken apart by Vexler:

  14. joe90 14

    Will no one think of the interminable suffering of the poor souls who initially planned to travel to the Cook Islands to look at potential locations for their upcoming wedding on their own but, after the first two changes, decided to bring their children and parents along as well.

    / /

    “This time they’ve changed the flights by a whole day, so we’ve got to stay another night in the Cook Islands and pay for 10 more people’s accommodation,” Gardner said. “There are no other options, so you’ve got to accept it, but it’s like ‘are you guys going to help us out with accommodation?’. You can’t just find that out online.”


  15. Molly 15

    @pat 12.0

    Let's have a look at what's conveyed in your first comment @ 2.2 :

    "What percentage of people have the inclination, necessity or bandwidth to devote their attention to this in the current environment do you think?"

    The reader in me interprets this as:

    1. Justify your reason for posting on Open Mike;

    2. You have other things you should be doing;

    3. Everyone else has other things they should be doing.

    No contribution at all, just admonition.

    The pattern is recognisable, as is the cowardice in not just clearly saying:

    'Shut up, why don't you?'

  16. Anne 16

    In reply to pat's view on gender issues. ‘Reply’ not currently working.

    You are right pat.

    The majority of people are not interested in the issue. When you take into consideration Climate Change, the potential for calamity due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, famine/pestilence and a worldwide upsurge in extreme violence then it isn’t surprising.

    Of course it is an important issue for some, but ramming it down people’s throats is not going to help their cause. By all means put up posts on this site, but I sometimes get the impression there is an attempt to derail other topics under discussion on OM in favour of yet another round of the gender war fracas.

  17. Anker 17

    Pat I wanted to ask you but Molly got in first "why does it bother you that we post here?

    And we can either follow mistakes made overseas or we can learn from them.

    BTW I am absolutely against the increase in funding for these surgeries. Latest evidence from Sweedon shows outcomes are poor (ie. more psychiatric hosptalizations after surgery than before, high rates of suicide and more cardiac problems c/p with controls. This is very good 10 year follow up. So these surgeries aren’t that helpful to the people receiving them and I suspect the “solution” makes the problem worse. Will post link soon.

    BTW if there was balanced reporting in the msm about these issues and women weren’t being shut down, it is unlikely I d post on here so

  18. Molly 18

    @Anne 16.0

    "Of course it is an important issue for some, but ramming it down people’s throats is not going to help their cause."

    Noted that your rare contributions are solely to pat the backs of those saying: Ssssh!

    Simple solution – scroll on, Anne.

    This topic might not be a concern for you, but those engaging honestly have provided me with links and information that I value.

  19. lprent 19

    Test comment using tinyMCE

  20. lprent 20

    Test comment as ckeditor (and reedited)

  21. pat 21

    @ Anker @17

    I am completely unperturbed by the posting on gender identity issues on The Standard….my post was in response to the question as to why so few are engaged with the topic for which I offered my perspective….if a small group wish to discuss the subject good luck to you but dont expect ( or demand even) everyone to share your enthusiasm.

    • fender 21.1

      FFS Pat, if you're uninterested in a particular topic the polite thing to do would be to just scroll past.

      And don't be mistaken by the quantity of participants , many just like to listen, so please don't be so rude.

    • weka 21.2

      …my post was in response to the question as to why so few are engaged with the topic for which I offered my perspective….if a small group wish to discuss the subject good luck to you but dont expect ( or demand even) everyone to share your enthusiasm.

      What question? I didn't ask about this. I commented on the fact that gender identity unexamined causes great harm. And I pointed to the actual reason it's not being discussed: the success of No Debate.

      I've not seen anything in your comments other than supposition that people aren't interested because transition affects as many people as rare cancers. But how would we know if there's been no public discussion? Further, people in positions of power (academics, medical people, therapists, politicians) are under intense pressure to not speak and not go against the ideology. That means little research, no precautionary principle, and badly written laws and policy. It's not some minor side issue, in the UK people are going to court over this.

  22. Blade 23

    @ Pat.

    Yet if we go the other way and introduce Christianity into the argument people can't wait to join the scrum. Strange world.


    “Contemporary trends in our culture are constantly changing and need careful attention: some young people experience significant confusion about their gender.


  23. Drowsy M. Kram 24

    a mistake I am unlikely to repeat

    To Pat (@12 / 21) – me too. My last major mistake was to provide an honest if ill-advised answer to a question posed at the end of a 13 October 2021 Guest post – didn't end well.

    A subsequent minor (re)lapse (on 17 Feb 2022) was to reply to Molly when a comment of mine (to observer) fell foul – this generated a lengthy exchange that ended amicably enough when I committed to not replying to Molly's comments, and Molly thought that was probably for the best:

    Since you contribute nothing of substance, that's probably for the best.

    Now your comments have been linked to “cowardice“, and Anne has also fallen short.

    Noted that your rare contributions are solely to pat the backs of those saying: Ssssh!

    Not all perspectives are equally welcome or easy to understand – that's to be expected.

  24. Blade 25

    This was to be expected if you have been following this issue. However, I didn't expect this situation. I can't blame prison officers. They can't defend themselves. They are underfunded and the hierarchy is useless.

    However, Kelvin Davis, a reshuffle survivor, see's things differently.


    My short term solution is use new police and army recruits on a rotational basis. That way they get to look evil in the face, unlike the second hand description they get from their instructors. It will also toughen them up both physically and mentally, especially mentally. If these recruits think inmates are only one step up in evolution from monkeys, they will be in for a huge shock to their middle class perceptions. It would also act as a filtering system that allows recruits to think twice about a career that puts them in continual danger.

    My suggestion to Labour- call an early election. Either late November or May next year. You have lost control of NZ.


  25. Visubversa 26

    Pat – you might like to have a look at what your children/grandchildren/ younger relatives etc are being taught today in New Zealand.

    schools. https://hpe.tki.org.nz/guidelines-and-policies/relationships-and-sexuality-education/

    Skip to the Glossary at the end and see that it is all about "gender" and very little about sex. They refuse to give a definition of "homosexuality" and talk about same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction. Note also the inclusion of a "third sex".

    They say that children are "assigned a sex at birth" when the truth is that your sex is determined at conception and is observed at birth – or these days by scans etc before birth.

    "Sex assigned at birth: All babies are assigned a sex at birth, usually determined by a visual observation of external genitalia. A person’s gender may or may not align with their sex assigned at birth."

    The whole curriculum is absolutely captured by, and infested with "gender ideology".

    This is unscientific claptrap and one day quite soon some National Party activist is going to make a grand drama out of it.

  26. Molly 28

    @Drowsy M. Kram 24,0

    Stunning and brave comment. Join the club over in the corner of the yard.

    Must've left a scar for you to be still hurting over a query to your comment in October 2021:

    The judgement comes from you. As someone who says that statement, I know that there is no judgement intended.

    I cannot see another way of simply saying that there is a distinct class of the biological sex of women, and transwomen are not members of that group.

    Do you have a suggestion on how to accomplish that?

    Your suggestion?

    No. I think that the current furore about "women with penises", and "men with vaginas", will diminish over time as some NZers come to realise that the magnitude of the ‘threat’ the trans minority poses was misjudged. I could be wrong – it's just a hope.

    Not helpful, nor a solution driven approach. More an ignore those who think it's a problem scenario.

    I thought back in October 2021, that it was a misunderstanding around language that interfered with robust discussion on this issue. I understood why some people said TWAW, even though I was not one of them, for the reasons stated. I had difficulty understanding why those that did say it, were so adamant that everyone should join in.

    Since that first post, I've found the term women to be erased from medical policies and announcements here in NZ, despite evidence showing that such 'inclusive' language reduces the effectiveness and clarity of messages. I've seen how the conflation of sex and gender in political and public discussions is further hampered by the redefinition of the word woman.

    There is no other single word to describe adult human females, which is necessary in advocacy and support in terms of politics, social impacts, medicine and statistics.

    I've considered and assessed the problem and agree with the solution that was recognised by many before me.

    The word woman is already fully occupied by adult human females.

    Transwomen are men.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 28.1

      Must've left a scar…

      Clever clever Molly, but imho your brightest and most revealing phrase is:

      the neon glare of the rainbow

      The rainbow, with all its "pretty colours", does seem to confuse and threaten some, while others feel it should be brighter still. Most Kiwis haven't given the rainbow much thought beyond a few harmless casual comments and a little trivial discrimination here and there – your non-tribal approach can change this and build trusting relationships.

      How this situation is not of concern to everyone is an indication of how tribal some seem to be.

      Kia kaha.

      • Molly 28.1.1

        Not trying to be clever, just occasionally run out of patience.

        Thanks for the link to my relevant post. Don't really understand the relevance or remember using the phrase "neon glare of the rainbow" – but I quite like it.

        Is that really my most unforgivable quote? … obviously must try harder.

        (BTW, arnica's good for persistent bruising on thin skin.)

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Is that really my most unforgivable quote?

          An intriguing diversion, but your phrase "neon glare of the rainbow" is "revealing". Little wonder that you quite like it – "pretty colours" and all.

          Not seeing how its use is consistent with your apparent concerns about “how tribal some seem to be“, but do hope you will use it more often, in keeping with your “stunning and brave” mindset.

          [edit] Thank for the arnica advice – another great example of how your non-tribal approach can build trusting relationships.

          • Molly


            I appear to be failing to make my point clear

            As you are contributing no counter considerations, offering no information or articulating other perspectives on this topic, but instead choosing to whinge, I have resorted to the lowest form of wit – sarcasm.

            I thought that – at least – you would understand.

            (The arnica advice – however -remains valid.)

      • Molly 28.1.2

        On a laptop this morning, so now able to access my comment with the notorious, but somewhat adept turn of phrase "neon glare of the rainbow", to see why it was so memorable. (Phone only provided link to post itself, and all comments were inaccessible.)

        Leery as I am of obviously truncated "quotes", I wanted to assure myself that I was indeed the author of the obviously memorable phrase, (kudos to me if that was the case) and have a look at the context.

        So, on a post about the lack of medical evidence for children, and the fact that countries that have reviewed existing studies have found harm, and exchange with Sabine about the lack of public discussion, and the self-monitoring on the left led to this:

        "Women raising concerns are definitely being treated differently to men raising the same concerns, even as those concerns are ignored.

        I feel as if women's rights have almost melted away in the neon glare of the rainbow, and that is powered by all the co-opted institutions and governments who are dazzled by the pretty colours.

        How this situation is not of concern to everyone is an indication of how tribal some seem to be."

        Colour me red and yellow and pink and green, indigo, violet and blue – I am the witty author. Better still, I find myself in complete agreement with myself, in terms of the context of the post and the conversation that was taking place.

        Perhaps you could ask yourself why in a post, with many comments on the very real problem of iatrogenic harm to minors by the adoption of such badly evidenced "affirming healthcare" (with a multitude of links and references to research) your 'takeaway' was offense at the somewhat colourful turn of phrase, "neon glare of the rainbow"?

        Your clumsy attempt to imply that it means I have no consideration for others, rather than the clear statement that the movement and it's allies demands no scrutiny or critique is worrying.

        Perhaps, not surprising though, because when offered a veritable smorgasbord of evidence and a wide variety of talking points where alternative viewpoints were encouraged and would be valuable, you instead opted for the junk food option of the 'takeaway'.

        I thank you for the reminder of the phrase "neon glare of the rainbow". I think it describes succinctly the failure of many to do their due diligence in terms of policies, medical interventions, women's rights and child safeguarding in the pursuit of progressive credentials.

        I will be using it again, in such context.

        As a relic who lived through the eighties, neon glare has little effect on me, but others with weaker eyes may need to put on their sunglasses and start engaging about content rather than choosing 'a fence' to whinge from.

        (Bad punning is a result of losing patience with bad faith engagement. You'll obviously have to learn to deal with it, if you engage again with me without providing any relevant points of discussion, or challenging mine with clarity.)

        • Anne

          "Women raising concerns are definitely being treated differently to men raising the same concerns, even as those concerns are ignored.

          I feel as if women's rights have almost melted away in the neon glare of the rainbow, and that is powered by all the co-opted institutions and governments who are dazzled by the pretty colours.

          How this situation is not of concern to everyone is an indication of how tribal some seem to be.

          Thank-you for that quote Molly. I did not see the original.

          I'm not removed from your concerns. Indeed I can testify to the accuracy of that statement – at least in general terms.

          Years ago, I realised I had knowledge of a tiny group of NZers who were implicated in the preparations occurring in advance of the Rainbow Warrior bombing. I was not listened to (because I was a woman) and the culprits were never arrested and charged. I was not harmed [physically] in the immediate ensuing years but my pets were. Enough time has passed now for me to feel able to talk about it.

          Go well with your campaign against the rights of women to be listened to… and to be protected from those who do them harm in whatever way it may be.

          • Molly

            Thanks, Anne for taking the time to read and consider.

            It's more in line with my experience of your comments on topics, and your explanatory reply is appreciated.

            • Anne

              Thumb up. Image disappeared.

              Oops… I meant “Go well with your campaign FOR the rights of women to be listened to. 😮

              • Molly

                Embarrassingly, since I try to take care to read properly, I didn't even notice the slip…no

                (These moving emoticons are throwing me off).

                I agree with the assumed original, and the corrected update. Respectful listening to all, is an essential part of resolving issues.

                Trying for the thumb myself now…laugh

  27. pat 29

    @ Visubversa @26

    Curiously I have 2 children who are teachers and in my discussions with them I have detected no such problem…that may be because as with most of the curriculum it is tempered by the common sense of those implementing it.

    If there were instances in NZ of minors being forcibly given hormone treatment or surgery i dont doubt that the opposition and media would all over it like a rash….the opportunity would be too good to miss…as to oddly intentioned (minority) health and/or education advocates it is par for the course and parents will consider it as it warrants….adults are free to make their own minds up, right or wrong.

    • Molly 29.1

      "If there were instances in NZ of minors being forcibly given hormone treatment or surgery.."

      I haven't read any comments mentioning that minors are forcibly given treatment. I, along with others, have pointed out that the current "affirming healthcare" model currently in use for minors in New Zealand, is being abandoned by countries who have reviewed the clinical evidence for such an approach.

      Not only have those reviews found that treatment for minors is not beneficial, it results in net harms. NZ follows the WPATH and Yogyakarta Principles guidelines. Neither of which is medically based, or clinically evidenced. For some reason, this information is ignored by NZ media, and also, on political blogs such as TS.

      "i dont doubt that the opposition and media would all over it like a rash….the opportunity would be too good to miss…"

      Except this might not be the case if commentators and media self-censor and regulate.

      This tweet is an example:

      Not a fan of Ben Shapiro, but didn't know the story behind the clip so did a search, and found this short video of Ben Shapiro covering the background.

      However, I wanted to see how the producers and the others on the show responded to a panelist actually physically grabbing someone by the neck and threatening them with physical violence.

      So, after looking I found the whole segment. Timeset it to get the response after the incident. You only need to watch a couple of minutes to see how the blatant violence is ignored and excused:

      Now, if Ben Shapiro had grabbed Zoey Tur on the back of the neck and threatened to put Zoey in the back of the ambulance – what would the response have been?

      Has the left created a sacred class to be excused from any responsibility at all costs?

      Do you really believe that in a climate such as this, you are going to be kept informed by media and the opposition?

  28. RedLogix 30


    Has the left created a sacred class to be excused from any responsibility at all costs?

    It does this all the time. What you are finally seeing with this trans activism is the logical outcome of a process going back decades or more.

    Frankly I am appalled beyond words – and I do not often use that word – at the butchery of teenage bodies (male and female) being sacrificed at the altar of this mad cult. But then like many men I get the distinct message this is in is some unspecified way all our fault anyway – and it is required we STFU.

    • Molly 30.1

      I am also appalled.

      I hear you regarding your discomfort and disagreement with aligning with feminists on this issue. I have the same aversion to in any way promoting someone like Matt Walsh, who I find uninteresting for the most part, and has very traditional gender stereotypes which GC feminists have fought against for decades – for both sexes.

      However, as my concern is for women's rights and the protection of children from indoctrination and iatrogenic harm, I agree where agreement is warranted. I also acknowledge his circle of influence is not only huge, but is located in a demographic where few GC feminists will be found. He might intrigue his viewers enough to find out more, and we should all endeavour to make sure as much robust evidence, considerations and arguments is out there to find as possible. I post not to annoy but inform, although it often does the former only for certain commenters. That's of little concern to me, I just hope some may read and then go look for themselves.

      I consider it a foolish expectation for me to need you to be a feminist before agreeing on this issue. By the same token, I don't really think you'd expect me not to be one.

      If you consider the issue regarding the iatrogenic harm on minors to be of concern enough to stand beside those who raise the issue then there is a welcome space there.

      Choice to engage – and how to engage – lies with us all.

    • Molly 30.2

      On the theme of left progressiveness, I've also been surprised at how many topics are approached tribally with an expectation of total agreement or banishment.

      The choice of many on the left to be authoritarian when the option was available. Mandates and compulsory vaccinations were treated as the only solution rather than a preferred one.

      And I am beyond defending the current narrative that leaves the right as the only proponents of free speech.

      Where are our left wing defenders of free speech?

      At a time when even left and right should be working together as often as possible, I find myself politically homeless. I don't think I'm alone in this dilemma.

  29. Anker 31

    Red Logix, I don't blame men for the what is/has happened with gender ideology. I am a little frustrated that some progressive left wing men are not listening to women who are concerned about gender ideology. But I am frustrated with the women who don't seem to grasp what is going on either.

    There is almost total censorship in this country in the msm about how gender ideology pervades most of our institutions and many businesses. The msm, particularly Stuff seem to carry an inordinate amount of material which can either only be considered pro trans. They almost without exception ignore any gender critical views or if they mention them, they use terms like "controversial group SUFW". I have yet to see an article about SUFW which reveals what the organisation is truly about. Even though the Judge in the case in Palmerston North High Court stated that SUFW could not be considered a hate group, they are presented as such by the media.

    As the media are not doing their job, I think it is not possible to argue that the problems with gender ideology are only happening overseas.

    • RedLogix 31.1

      Well for my part I am entirely supportive of The Standard remaining one of the few local public domains where this can be discussed rationally.

  30. lprent 32

    Looks like the reply problem is fixed. It was a javascript minifier at cloudflare.

    However I also found that the license for w3 total cache had disappeared. Chasing that now. Explains a sluggishness that has been showing up recently on the site.

    • lprent 32.1

      I also have hardware for a new home server (and TS host) arriving. Should all be here by tuesday.

      asrock rack x570d2u, The main reason for that upgrade is that it has a acceptable BMC for IPMI on it, and I wasn't that interested in doing a xeon system. If supermicro had a workstation/server board for a desktop AMD, then I'd have gotten that. Ryzen 5700G and 64GB RAM.

      The disks will just get pulled from the old system ~20Tb of them. But I will look at upgrading the raid 1 array from TS from IBM 120Gb SSDs to something faster.

      The old workstation (Ryzen 1700X) will probably get a facelift with a newer GPU, widescreen, and maybe a 3000 series CPU that the x370 chipset supports. But I don't play games apart from Civ6 these days, so I don't think I can be bothered upgrading it to far.

      • Molly 32.1.1

        Thanks, Lprent.

        Haven't been so active of late, probably to the delight of a few few, but do appreciate the effort and time spent on providing this platform.

      • lprent 32.1.2

        Picked up the CPU and RAM on Saturday along with a pile of overdue UPS lead heavy batteries (roll on cheaper and lighter lithium UPS units).

        Case and power supply arrived this morning.

        Just waiting for the motherboard, which DHL say will be tomorrow. I had to get that from Aussie.

      • The Al1en 32.1.3

        I built a pc a few months ago for music production using the 5700g and asus b550 tomahawk. Very impressed with both the cpu and board.

        • lprent

          The 5700G looks damn near perfect for a non-gaming work station. Not too dear. Not too hot at 65W on the TPD. Significant grunt if you're doing anything that can use multi-threaded efficiently.

          I'll probably just leave this one as air-cooled. The 1700X it is replacing was a nominal 95W, so I water cooled it just in case. I could hear it on air cooled when I ran long compiles. But I never heard it after I water cooled it.

          I used a Asus X370 Prime motherboard last time. Hasn't burped at all in the last 5 years of continuous. I'll probably keep it running as the archive server.

          I picked the motherboard this time for an ability to do remote updates without having to have the CPU running. 5 months working in Singapore in 2018 made that a very desirable feature this time around.

    • RedLogix 32.2

      That is logical – because v6 had been working well for some days now. I was pleased to see that at long last I could reply on my Android phone reliably all week – something that was always very flaky in the past.

      It seemed odd to me that a new version would work well for a week and then fail; therefore the problem lay elsewhere.

  31. Anker 33

    Thanks I prent

  32. Anker 34

    Thanks Lprent

  33. Anker 35

    My Thanks as well Lprent

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