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Open mike 19/02/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 19th, 2021 - 94 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

94 comments on “Open mike 19/02/2021 ”

  1. Ad 1
    19 February 2021 at 7:10 am

    With Big Tech being the largely unregulated vampire of the entire developed world, which larger countries will stand up beside Australia and against Facebook?

    Over 33% of Australians get most of their news from their Facebook feed.

    Reply
  2. gsays 2
    19 February 2021 at 7:33 am

    I had trouble looking at TS yesty, and found myself at another political blog reading, a Chris Trotter opinion piece.

    He has reckons about the state of Labour's coffers and hints at an uneasy compromise to get Labour re-elected.

    "… it brought in tons of funds. While this happy situation endures, Labour is said to be polling and focus-grouping like there’s no tomorrow. The PM doesn’t just have her finger on the pulse of the nation, she’s reading its ECGs."

    and

    "Less clear, is whether Labour’s willingness to embrace the “woke” agenda…..

    ….Something along the lines of: “You let us enjoy our tax-free capital gains, and we’ll tolerate your cultural revolution.”

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2021/02/in-know-making-sense-of-labours-inaction.html

    I am aware reform can take a while to enact. I am becoming disappointed that some simple things could be done immediately to alleviate the grinding poverty too many in Aotearoa find themselves. eg 40% increase in benefits, drop GST on wholefoods etc.

    4000 children living in motels, 500 for a year, 100 for more than a year.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018784185/housing-crisis-more-than-4-000-nz-children-living-in-motels

    If there is a biggish surplus at Budget time, Labour's leaders should hang their heads in shame.

    Reply
    • Ed1 2.1
      19 February 2021 at 9:57 am

      As I understand it, there is an increase in the minimum wage going through in April, and that will itself generate an increase in benefits in due course. I believe WFF needs to be phased out, but again that needs to be done over time, as wages alone meet living wage levels, allowing for costs of children. I travelled the North Island recently, and was pleased to see the amount of work on new building – much of it densification, with one house being moved to build two (Wainuiomata) or two houses being moved to enable 8 apartments (Auckland). There are still subdivisions being developed with McMansions instead of denser housing, but there are plenty of three and four story apartment blocks going up in the larger cities (in particular Auckland). Work is being done by both central and local government, but there is clear stress on infrastructure in some places. I have not seen statistics, but I suspect we have brought back a lot of New Zealanders wanting to move back during Covid, placing housing demand that may be greater than from the equivalent number of short term immigrant workers previously. I gather that prices in Auckland have also flattened off a little as well, perhaps reflecting lower new demand and the results of building. I know that there are still horrible dwellings being rented out – who would not go on a list for a state house if they qualify? The standards for new homes should be at lest partially built into the requirements for privately owned rental properties; to give a fair market and reduce costs for services such as hospitals. I am sure our national debt will have risen sharply, surplus is not the only measure of economic performance we should be looking at.

      Reply
      • woodart 2.1.1
        19 February 2021 at 10:59 am

        good post ed1. its good to see that some on here actually get out and see the country , and not spend their entire time being keyboard knowalls. the amount of building happening away from auck is huge. but people on here raving on about transformation need to get real, there is no quick, one size fits all, solution .

        Reply
        • gsays 2.1.1.1
          19 February 2021 at 1:09 pm

          Where is the request for a single solution?

          I am of the opinion that a raise in benefits and the increase or the minimum wage are a good way to tackle a few key concerns (housing affordability, food poverty etc).

          In her own words, the PM has said that this term is about being re-elected, keeping the centre's vote.

          That's fine if your property portfolio is ok, there is plenty in the account for groceries and no health issues being ignored because you can afford the dentist, GP or the medication bill.

          That's not the case for far too many.

          Reply
          • Louis 2.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2021 at 3:32 pm

            "her own words, the PM has said that this term is about being re-elected, keeping the centre's vote"

            Can you link to her own words that actually said that please?

            Reply
            • gsays 2.1.1.1.1.1
              19 February 2021 at 5:29 pm

              I've got a couple of chores to do, I will try have a geez later.

              From memory it may have been a speech at the Labour Party conference, talking about keeping the voters that voted for them. It was from this year and I heard it a couple of times.

              I have been impressed with the discipline and attitude shift Ardern has managed with the caucus. (Not getting involved when The Nats were imploding- JLR, Dowie, Muller adams and Kaye resigning etc).

              We just seem happy to leave too many behind by not reforming things like the Employment Contracts Act and being wedded to the neo-liberal reforms of the '80s.

              Reply
              • Louis …
                19 February 2021 at 5:47 pm

                Then you should have no problem finding the link that states in her own words "that this term is about being re-elected, keeping the centre's vote"

                I look forward to you posting that later then.

                Reply
      • gsays 2.1.2
        19 February 2021 at 1:01 pm

        I, too, have been out and about lately in the North Island. Further, I live in the armpit of the Manawatu. Building and development has been going gangbusters for a few years now, in the cities and in the countryside.

        What I see getting built, and what I hear about isn't going to cater for the folk most in need. Either an upgrade to a newer 250 square meter whare or the mansion for the couple to retire into.

        There was a story on the radio yesty about school lunch supply. The speaker made the point of the potential for this scheme to be transformational, in that local food, prepared locally by locals. This builds resilience in schools and communities.

        As opposed to being transactional, and a local catering company hoover's up the money with their race to the bottom antics.

        This government and the previous has shown itself to be too transactional for my tastes. A profound lack of imagination.

        Reply
    • weka 2.2
      19 February 2021 at 10:29 am

      thanks gsays, I often don't have time to read many political blogposts, so pulling those points out was choice.

      The polling/focus thing is super interesting. If you see anyone else talking about this, can you please let me know?

      I don't believe Labour are going to do anything transformational. I'm completely ok with being wrong about that, but in the meantime I will act according to what I see them actually doing. Which is some good things, but they have no real plan on poverty or the housing crisis that is fueling it.

      Reply
      • RedBaronCV 2.2.1
        19 February 2021 at 1:55 pm

        I read the Trotter article. and I do wonder how nuanced the focus groups are likely to be. Having given finance type advice for many years I find people are often missing a few facts and supplied with them their outlook changes.

        I can see focus groups being against CTG because a lot would think of it as someone taxing the only house they own for cash they don't have. Faced with a actual small inheritance tax of 1-2% they might be more accepting.

        I also think that plenty would accept the idea that the sort of money going into into accommodation supplements could well be rechannelled into ownership.

        So yeh focus groups may whittle out people's feelings but not the facts or lack thereof that it is based on. The role of the government then is surely to look at the worsening gaps in parts of our society ( young home ownership) and craft policies that sort these whilst selling it on the most rational basis. People don't want it doesn't really cut it if you start leaving large groups behind.

        Reply
    • Peter 2.3
      19 February 2021 at 12:44 pm

      If there is a biggish surplus at Budget time, Labour's leaders should hang their heads in shame?

      How long a period before a budget time would it take to house 4000 children in places other than motels? Has there been any effort to get kids out of that sort of living?

      If all those involved on all the work in Ed1's comments were directed to solving the situation you highlight, what other necessary projects would not be being done? I assume the building work going on is necessary, it wouldn't be happening otherwise.

      And if there aren't the human resources should we simply import workers to carry it out?

      By my reckoning our population has grown by very close to 30% since 2000. (3.86 million to 5.00 million.)

      I wonder what the growth in accommodation has been over that period.

      Reply
      • gsays 2.3.1
        19 February 2021 at 1:18 pm

        We can agree there is a shortage of housing.

        The answer is not to import the labour to build it.

        It is to develop the local work force. The quakes in Canterbury were a wasted opportunity to train up a lot of tradies. No, we would rather bring in the workers. Typical neo-liberal, balance sheet dominated thinking.

        That was a Key government in cahoots with Act, Dunne and The Maori Party.

        This mob have the numbers, the $, the reports, they just lack courage.

        Reply
  3. Incognito 3
    19 February 2021 at 8:19 am

    When the tap is open and running you won’t know if it’s leaking and the washer needs replacing.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300233323/covid19-the-edge-cases-and-when-transmission-gets-weird

    Reply
    • arkie 4.1
      19 February 2021 at 9:15 am

      Typical envious academics.

      /s

      Reply
    • Gosman 4.2
      19 February 2021 at 9:45 am

      There is no evidence these were "unjust" evictions. The most that was mentioned was that one or more group of renters was unaware why they were served an eviction notice. The academics could have followed up with the landlord to find out the reason. A good study would have done that. This was not a good study.

      Reply
    • RedLogix 4.3
      19 February 2021 at 10:00 am

      Over a period of 20 yrs a total of 5% of our tenants have been evicted. It was always for a valid reason. No business person turns away a 'perfectly good customer' for no reason at all.

      If you have a reliable tenant in place – where on earth is the motivation to kick them out and replace them with someone new and unknown?

      The only reason that makes any sense is the scenario where the rent has been allowed to fall so far behind market, that it's easier to 'evict' and start over with someone who can afford the place. It's an ethically ugly move and not something I endorse, but I can see why it used to happen.

      Well the good news is that recent law pretty much stops this from happening – and landlords will likely in response become much more diligent about ensuring rent rises happen regularly.

      Reply
      • Craig H 4.3.1
        19 February 2021 at 2:00 pm

        In a rapidly rising housing market, at least some of the evictions may have been to sell the property, particularly if the landlord decides to renovate before selling.

        Reply
        • McFlock 4.3.1.1
          19 February 2021 at 8:03 pm

          Or the new speculator wanted to "add value" and get new tenants at a higher price.

          Also, I seem to recall from when it happened to me that the 40 day notice for the new owner's vacant possession was statutarily different to the lease break period.

          But in many markets, landlords aren't doing themselves out of much cash by hiffing tenants and going for someone who can pay more. If you're already charging someone as much as they can afford, it's blood out of a stone to increase rent. But ditching someone gives you a few weeks to find replacement tenants so you only miss out on a day or two of rent, then there's the bond shenanigans, and the new person pays more money and if you're lucky doesn't notice the carpet damage you failed to repair so you can do them for bond for the same fault (popular for students' landlords back in the day, along with illegally high "bond" levels).

          #notAllLandlords, but I've met some sharks in my time who were willing to abuse every trick in the book against people who didn't know or couldn't afford to fight it. And they'd run their own renter blacklist while opposing any rating system for flats that got started (by lobbying organising groups but also by bullying tenants).

          A business doesn't care about specific customers, just the custom they bring in. Individuals are as fungible as their cash, and if your product is in demand enough they are trivially replaceable.

          Reply
  5. AB 5
    19 February 2021 at 9:44 am

    Getting a little tired of Des Gorman's criticism of the Covid response. He has been catastrophising for months – though his latest example steps back a little and alleges mere inconsistency, rather than predicting imminent disaster. However actual outcomes have been rather good, which invites speculation as to why he might have got it so wrong for so long. Three possibilities come to mind:

    • Is he commenting outside his area of expertise
    • Is there is some long-standing personal-professional vendetta against the Ministry of Health going on
    • Is he ideologically hostile to the Labour government (perhaps mistakenly thinking they are left-wing)

    On one important point I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt: I think he's simply a catastrophist, rather than a 'catastro-sophist' (someone who is deliberately setting out to deceive).

    Reply
    • Gosman 5.1
      19 February 2021 at 9:45 am

      Just ignore him.

      Reply
      • AB 5.1.1
        19 February 2021 at 10:16 am

        These days I do – but I'm not in the least concerned about myself, more the broader effect his commentary might have.

        Reply
        • Gosman 5.1.1.1
          19 February 2021 at 11:05 am

          Do you want to stop other people from getting information from him ? Interesting if that is the case.

          Reply
        • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.2
          19 February 2021 at 11:19 am

          …concerned …. more the broader effect his commentary might have.

          He said he felt unease with the decision to lower the alert levels.

          "I think the reason I share that unease is because the level of risk we seem to be tolerating is going up and down almost imperturbably," he told Checkpoint.

          "For example, the Ministry of Health found out about these cases on Saturday night but didn't think it was necessary to tell the prime minister for 12 hours. So things which should have been cancelled if we needed to be in alert level 3… weren't.

          "I can't see a consistency in our risk appetite, it seems to go up and down depending upon the optics of the situation."

          The most reassuring thing was the absence of virus particles in wastewater test results, he said.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018784012/i-can-t-see-a-consistency-in-our-risk-appetite-prof-des-gorman

          Not sure what it is exactly he has said that gives you cause for concern at the effect on we great unwashed and uneducated out here in Gullible Land. As news that the levels were going down the other day I was in conversation with 2 sciencey types with PhDs and an engineer. None of us could figure out what the fuck was going on, having accepted that the Level 3 would last at least 14 days. Just to be sure. When we heard that there was a half day delay before Ardern and Co were told about the new community cases….much head shaking and disbelief.

          Are we taking the threat from Te Virus seriously or not?

          There is 'inconsistency in the risk appetite'.

          Reply
          • Peter chch 5.1.1.2.1
            19 February 2021 at 11:43 am

            Yet Masks now mandatory on public transport at level one.

            Bizarre. Great to see Dunedin bus passengers revolting against this.

            Making masks mandatory when there is no realistic risk of Covid 19 and the likely legal requirement to scan is just going to lose public buy in.

            Reply
            • weka 5.1.1.2.1.1
              19 February 2021 at 11:59 am

              It's temporary (reviewed by Cabinet on Monday 22 February). The risk is low, but not zero. The salient point of risk assessment here is not how low or high the risk is, but the consequences of transmission even if low risk.

              I understand what you are saying though. I live in rural Otago and no-one here is scanning or signing in. I don't believe the current approach is going to work long term and needs to be adjusted for the variation across regions and the difficulty of people adopting behaviours when the perceived risk is low.

              Reply
            • Craig H 5.1.1.2.1.2
              19 February 2021 at 2:07 pm

              I use public transport where I can within a city. I always wear masks for public transport because I spend a lot of time in airports and working with colleagues from around NZ, but others wearing masks helps minimise risk of my spreading anything to them after an Auckland trip or working with Auckland-based colleagues elsewhere. Complaining that they haven't got community transmission rather misses the point that Kiwis travel a lot, and that large cities aren't immune to transmission via travel just because they aren't Auckland.

              Reply
            • Treetop 5.1.1.2.1.3
              19 February 2021 at 7:58 pm

              Remind me about there being a previous cluster in Invercargill.

              Reply
          • weka 5.1.1.2.2
            19 February 2021 at 11:55 am

            I'm ok with some inconsistency, because it's a new situation and complex and it takes time for societies (ministries and MPs included) to adapt and adjust. I also see the NZ covid response as by necessity needing to adjust over time.

            And I expect the occasional fuck up.

            No idea why Ardern wasn't told for 12 hours, but systems are rarely perfect and I think it's better to look at any issue within the whole system not in isolation.

            I've stopped following closely because I live down south and I judge the risk here to be low. But when I was following, the assessment of risk by the authorities for regions and the whole country looks complex to me. I think criticism of the MoH and govt is fine, but I suspect Gorman doesn't have the necessary experience to give us finer tuned analysis.

            Reply
            • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.2.2.1
              19 February 2021 at 12:11 pm

              ….but I suspect Gorman doesn't have the necessary experience to give us finer tuned analysis.

              http://www.gpcme.co.nz/speakers/gorman_2012.php

              Clearly he is speaking way out of turn…/sarc. cheeky

              Have we reached the stage where only Approved Persons can express an opinion? Because down that path lies peril.

              Labour need not fear criticism or debate…are they not riding high in the polls?

              https://www.thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-02-2021/exclusive-poll-nz-support-for-covid-19-response-remains-sky-high/

              Reply
              • weka …
                19 February 2021 at 12:47 pm

                I think criticism of the MoH and govt is fine.

                Repeating that in bold because you appear to have missed it or misunderstood what I was saying.

                Gorman does his interviews criticising the govt. I point out that I don't think he has the experience for the nuanced analysis. Nothing about only Approved Persons being able to express an opinion.

                Re Gorman's qualifications, there's been plenty of examination* of this.

                *aka criticism and debate.

                The main point I am making here is that this is a complex situation, in ways that most people aren't used to (including public and MPs) and I think it's valid for there to be confusion and inconsistencies. We can critique that, I just think it's better to do so with more nuance that takes into account the complexities.

                Reply
                • weka …
                  19 February 2021 at 12:49 pm

                  I also think with public health there is a highish degree of alarm that gets triggered in people and that influences the debates. I remember when that botulism in the milk powder thing happened and I spent ages trying to point out how botulism actually happens (it's complex-ish) whereas most people just want to run with the alarm and how terrible it was.

                  Reply
            • Herodotus 5.1.1.2.2.2
              19 February 2021 at 12:12 pm

              Perhaps we have been lucky, and to use a Russian roulette analogy – the chambers have been empty to date. Think what would have been the criticism should last weeks cases expanded due and spread into say to the Sailing or the Big Gay out crowds, and then we found out that it took 12 hours for the PM to be informed., and another 12 hours before restrictions were pout into place ?

              Sure systems should improve as we review as what actions are taken are found to have some issues. e.g. that community that was "cut off" from services at Port Waikato. Perhaps on reflection next time that community is included in the level that Pokeno and Tuakau are in ? Or the exodus from Auckland in the 8 hours available – Perhaps in future movement out of Auckland would be immediately managed ?

              Reply
              • Rosemary McDonald …
                19 February 2021 at 12:29 pm

                Or the exodus from Auckland in the 8 hours available – Perhaps in future movement out of Auckland would be immediately managed ?

                Not that I blame those normally resident in the City of Sails for fleeing at the very thought of not being able to, I too think this should be better managed.

                A cynic might opine otoh that since the outbreak was in South Auckland in communities where the number of residents with holiday homes to flee to might be quite low, the Authorities didn't see the exodus as a real threat.

                And interesting the differing responses from two of the maojr bolt holes.

                https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/coromandel-region-ruapehu-district-have-differing-takes-aucklanders-arriving-just-before-lockdown

                Reply
              • weka …
                19 February 2021 at 12:55 pm

                hard to say whether we are just getting lucky or whether the system is actually robust enough. I suspect both.

                I don't have an opinion about this round of handling, because basically I see it as an Auckland thing and I have other things to be thinking about. But more generally, we *should be prepared for a larger outbreak, and it's not going to serve us if we have a high blame culture in place when that happens.

                I also think that people tend to have this view of managing risk as being something you control in discrete ways, whereas with this public health issue, it's about the ratios and chances. We cannot control covid absolutely and still have a functioning society, so the approach then becomes one of how to balance life with containment.

                I do agree that each time we have community transmission or mistakes there should be high levels of accountability and reviewing process, and it's possible that the govt isn't messaging well enough about those reviews (again, I haven't followed closely enough).

                I'll tell you where I think NZ was extremely lucky: covid happening in 2020 and not some time between 2008 and 2017. That's nightmare stuff.

                Reply
              • McFlock …
                19 February 2021 at 1:17 pm

                re: movement, most definitely contain it in concert with the announcement.

                That's what fucked Italy. They were going to announce a lockdown in Lombardy, the press leaked it 2 days early, people fled Lombardy.

                Reply
                • weka …
                  19 February 2021 at 1:23 pm

                  good point both of you. I'm guessing that the risk was judged low enough to not warrant that (unlike in Italy). Where's the balance point between making covid response manageable for people long term and preventing dispersal of community transmission?

                  Reply
          • Incognito 5.1.1.2.3
            19 February 2021 at 6:41 pm

            Here is my opinion, without disclosing my credentials and attaching my CV.

            Strictly speaking, we should be in Alert Level 1. Government was perhaps over-cautious going to L3 in the Auckland region because the source and way of transmission were uncertain, and still are, because the scale of the outbreak was unknown, and because it was a new variant, although I can’t remember when that became known. Given people only four hours’ notice shows the sudden (!) urgency.

            https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/about-the-alert-system/#covid-19-alert-system

            Alert Level decisions are a complex balancing act based on many factors and considerations. They are made by people, not by a computer algorithm, as far as I know. Would you prefer a computer algorithm?

            So, of course, the “risk appetite” varies; it is not fixed in time and it shouldn’t be.

            Does Des Gorman know all the factors and considerations? No, he does not.

            Does MoH know all the factors and considerations? No, it does not.

            Who ultimately makes the decision and based on what information, advice, and input? Hint: not Des Gorman or any of the experts, not even Dr Siouxsie.

            Reply
          • Treetop 5.1.1.2.4
            19 February 2021 at 7:52 pm

            JI would have liked Papatoetoe school to shut down until 1 March as I think some of the pupils were tested a bit early.

            I do know that the close contacts are isolating for 14 days.

            Reply
            • Incognito 5.1.1.2.4.1
              19 February 2021 at 9:11 pm

              If you test, monitor, track & trace, maintain good personal hygiene and hand washing, and basically follow the simple rules, there is absolutely no need for Draconian measures and shut down a school for such a long time. It would be absolute overkill. Having said that, attendance rates at some schools in the region were certainly less than 100% the last two days.

              Reply
              • Treetop …
                20 February 2021 at 9:12 am

                If you…

                7 or 8 precautionary measures are a lot to expect/coordinate for 1400 school pupils.

                I heard something about needing to return a negative test result before having entry back to school next Monday at Papatoetoe College.

                It is the cases which were not picked up with the first round of testing which would be of concern.

                The community testing would help to pick up cases which could be associated with Papatoetoe.

                Were it to be known where case A & B picked up the infection the source would be more clear.

                At best the community cases are contained. At worst they are not. This could happen anywhere.

                As for those not attending school there would be some anxiety associated with this or being cautious.

                Reply
                • Incognito …
                  20 February 2021 at 10:14 am

                  Papatoetoe High School will remain closed for the rest of the week. Staff, students and their families are required to isolate at home until Monday [22 Feb], and not return to school without a negative test.

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300234149/not-quite-job-done-but-papatoetoe-high-school-principals-anxiety-easing

                  I know that most kids students are just out of nappies and can’t be trusted to follow basic simple rules and certainly not as many as 7 or 8 and need a nanny to wipe their nose & bum, in that order.

                  Until we give others, especially younger ones, the agency and responsibility and trust them to play their part in society, they will not fully develop these essential skills. Observe, monitor & moderate, track & trace when necessary. People must be allowed to make their own choices, do the right thing, make mistakes and learn from these.

                  See what I did there?

                  Reply
                  • Treetop …
                    20 February 2021 at 1:49 pm

                    Of course that age need to experience life. A pandemic is different to many other situations.

                    Possibly I am stuck in the Covid -19 mentality doing its 14 day cycle and it is the responsibility of the adults to look around the corners.

                    I would still shut until 1 March and prior to going back I would retest a few students in every class on 26 February.

                    Reply
                    • Incognito …
                      20 February 2021 at 2:20 pm

                      A pandemic is different to many other situations.

                      To a degree this is true, of course. However, much of the current narrative is a human construct that has embedded itself in and infected our collective psyche, IMO. Mind you, I have just been reading the long-ish essay highly recommended by Robert Guyton in OM 😉

                    • Treetop []
                      20 February 2021 at 3:05 pm

                      I am always open to different points of view.

                    • Incognito []
                      20 February 2021 at 4:39 pm

                      This pandemic will wane, the virus is likely to become endemic, just like the cold & flu. Until that time, we’re beholden to the official narrative coming from Government and experts alike. I think this fact alone is why some rage against it. Others are trapped by fear. Others again feel a sense of moral duty in quite literal acts of obeisance. Where do you think anti-vaxxers fit in? We can all change the internal dialogue inside us, to a degree.

                    • Treetop []
                      20 February 2021 at 10:13 pm

                      Where do you think anti-vaxxers fit in?

                      The purpose of vaccination is to prevent an epidemic/pandemic.

                      Those who do not vaccinate feel justified in their decision.

                      The efficacy of a vaccine, side effects and developing the illness can sway decision making either way to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.

                    • Incognito []
                      20 February 2021 at 11:43 pm

                      Yes, true again, but anti-vaxxers reject the official narrative on vaccination and usually a whole lot of other issues as well. I was wondering if you had any views on that. It is not a single-issue issue and taking a reductionist approach in trying to understand it is missing the point, I believe. It seems more of a larger general trust or distrust issue rather with so-called authorities. I think the technicalities are generally not the main problem, almost more of an excuse and a red herring.

  6. Morrissey 6
    19 February 2021 at 10:04 am

    Cynical clique of Oxford toffs tries to shut down a human rights champion

    https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-bigots-of-st-peters-college-oxford.html

    Reply
    • Gosman 6.1
      19 February 2021 at 11:37 am

      Yeah, Ken Loach made a hash of a BBC interview where he basically stated Holocaust denial was a valid viewpoint when discussing history (however it is unlikely that is his personal view). As such a lot of people are hacked off with him. The cancel culture trend in society eats another lefty. That is why people should allow more free speech not demand less of it.

      Reply
      • Brigid 6.1.1
        19 February 2021 at 1:10 pm

        People may well be hacked off with him mostly because people like you continue to disseminate lies about what he actually said.

        Reply
        • Gosman 6.1.1.1
          19 February 2021 at 2:14 pm

          No lies on my part. If you have evidence of what else it was about then present it here.

          Reply
          • Incognito 6.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2021 at 2:27 pm

            You lied by omission; no quote, no link, no direct or indirect support for your allegations, just innuendo.

            The onus is on you, not on others, which is the opposite of your MO here.

            Please show us that you’re better than that.

            Reply
        • weka 6.1.1.2
          19 February 2021 at 9:30 pm

          tbf, Gosman's synopsis does seem relatively accurate. Loach did a BBC interview. There was at least some confusion about what he said re the Holocaust denial, other lefties picked it up and criticised him, a week later he clarified his beliefs.

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/ken-loach-i-give-no-legitimacy-to-holocaust-denial

          I'm guessing "where he basically stated Holocaust denial was a valid viewpoint when discussing history" is a biased skewing of what Loach said, but not a complete falsehood, but I haven't seen the interview.

          Reply
          • Sacha 6.1.1.2.1
            19 February 2021 at 9:37 pm

            'basically' tends to undermine 'stated'

            Reply
          • weka 6.1.1.2.2
            19 February 2021 at 9:42 pm

            here's the BBC interview snip. He's doesn't say Holocaust denial is a valid viewpoint when discussion history. He makes a less direct, more nuanced point, and in context of his whole explanation I would interpret him as saying that it's important for people to be able to talk about history. As in Holocaust denial isn't a valid perspective but people need to be free to discuss it.

            He also gives the example of talking about the creation of the state of Israel and obviously has criticisms of that that no doubt some interpret as anti-semitic. On the face of it he appears to be arguing for the freedom to critique Israel, and not to suppress debate, but he also clearly states that he doesn't think there was promoting of Holocause denial at the fringe Labour event.

            Gosman is probably right about the left eating itself though.

            Reply
            • Brigid 6.1.1.2.2.1
              19 February 2021 at 10:59 pm

              "Gosman is probably right about the left eating itself though."

              How so?

              Reply
              • weka …
                20 February 2021 at 10:29 am

                do you mean you are unaware of the general issue of the left eating itself, or don't see how it applies in this case?

                Reply
                • Morrissey …
                  20 February 2021 at 10:32 am

                  It's not "the left" making these absurd allegations against human rights and justice campaigners like Ken Loach. It's a small but virulent group of hardline supporters of the Israeli regime.

                  Reply
                  • weka …
                    20 February 2021 at 10:34 am

                    There's been a massive issue with UK Labour and anti-semitism investigations and debate in the past few years. I guess you could argue that UK Labour aren't part of the left, but that's a difference conversation.

                    Reply
                    • weka …
                      20 February 2021 at 10:36 am

                      and just to save us some time, if you're going to run a pro-Palestine, anti-Israel line now and attack the pro-Israel part of the left, you are in fact demonstrating the left eating itself. Which would be a handy demonstration, so have at it yes

                    • Morrissey …
                      20 February 2021 at 10:39 am

                      In this British witch hunt, there has been no debate, simply accusations. And that small but noisy clique in the Labour Party was, and is, the right wing (Blairite) rump of the party. People like [deleted] have in the space of a couple of years reduced the Labour Party from the biggest democratic party in Europe to a pile of ashes…

                      [stop calling public figures liars. You’ve got history of being pulled up on this on TS and I can’t be bothered going another round, better things to do with my time – weka]

                    • Morrissey …
                      20 February 2021 at 10:43 am

                      I'm not anti-Israel; I’m opposed to the Israeli regime's illegal occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and its siege of Gaza.

                    • weka []
                      20 February 2021 at 11:17 am

                      mod note for you Morrissey.

                    • weka …
                      20 February 2021 at 11:15 am

                      did the identity politics part of Labour not get on board with the investigations and culture change?

                    • Morrissey …
                      20 February 2021 at 11:22 am

                      “stop calling public figures liars”

                      Sorry about that. I apologize unreservedly to [deleted] who is clearly a sane, honorable and well intentioned gentleman.

                      [I’d rather you didn’t back door the slur either. If you want to make a point about his politics or whatever then do so directly, without putting the site at risk. You can just leave out the words like ‘liar’ and put some actual political analysis on their place, thanks.

                      Bold replaced with quotation marks so we can more easily see moderation from comment. – weka]

                    • Incognito []
                      20 February 2021 at 11:31 am

                      Good morning, or what’s left of it …

                      You’re in weka’s hands now but just to let you know that I’m also over your senseless snide remarks and needless ad hommery.

                      Your ‘cheeky’ responses to moderation are tedious too.

                      But you already know all this 🙁

                      Have a nice day, or what will be left of it …

                    • weka []
                      20 February 2021 at 12:30 pm

                      mod note.

      • Morrissey 6.1.2
        20 February 2021 at 9:41 am

        Yeah, Ken Loach made a hash of a BBC interview…

        No he did not.

        he basically stated…

        No he did not. Your cynicism never fails to astonish me.

        Reply
  7. RedBaronCV 7
    19 February 2021 at 1:10 pm

    I would like to think that by now the IRD has sent out a form letter to all employees telling them that a wages subsidy was claimed for their IRD number and to contact the IRD if they did not receive the appropriate money at the right dates. Easy enough to do and no doubt more out there than the one below.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124290762/worker-to-get-25k-after-opportunistic-employer-failed-to-pass-on-wage-subsidy

    Reply
  8. gsays 8
    19 February 2021 at 1:20 pm

    Somewhere along the line I have added a few letters to my title in the name field of the response thingy above.

    I am on an android, how do I remove them as it autofills the field and I have to keep deleting them?

    Reply
    • weka 8.1
      19 February 2021 at 1:25 pm

      it's an intermittent bug sorry (or perhaps a mismatch between wordpress and some devices apps). I will link this comment to Lprent. You could try deleting the browser and reinstalling, but kind of drastic move if you have settings in your browser you like to keep.

      Reply
  9. RedBaronCV 9
    19 February 2021 at 2:17 pm

    Is the IRD saying it did this deliberately? Withheld transfering funds to Kiwisavers accounts? Looks a lot more like a complete stuff up until not found until people started complaining. It's taken a very long time to find what is a solid error.

    Missing 644,000 payment transfers is more than just a test. As one who looks like they are getting the compensation amount I would suggest that they possibly failed to process all the returns from the bi monthly employer payers for one return filing

    What ever- they should be a lot more forthcoming about how this happened particularly if it was the gross error it looks like instead of hiding behind a we did it for a testl PR.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124296688/inland-revenue-pays-66m-for-delayed-kiwisaver-payments

    Reply
  10. Byd0nz 10
    19 February 2021 at 3:10 pm

    I see the 'White Helmets' are back in Syria to cause more bullshit. Notice they never showed up in Yemen where true help was needed.

    Reply
    • Andre 10.1
      19 February 2021 at 3:26 pm

      The White Helmets were local Syrians trying to deal with shit going down in their own local neighbourhoods.

      Why the fuck would you expect them to travel thousands of kilometres to jump into other people's problems while their own neighbourhoods still have dire needs?

      BTW, if there's some recent news or events that you want to talk about, a linky is helpful. Y'know, just so as people can get some idea of what bug up your ass is wriggling right now.

      Reply
      • Brigid 10.1.1
        19 February 2021 at 11:02 pm

        "The White Helmets were local Syrians trying to deal with shit going down in their own local neighbourhoods."

        Indeed

        "a linky is helpful"

        Reply
    • Barfly 10.2
      19 February 2021 at 6:13 pm

      No you will never see the "white helmets" in Yemen – the victims are shi'ite = incompatible with "white helmets"

      Reply
  11. Byd0nz 11
    19 February 2021 at 4:31 pm

    White Helmets/Founders
    In November 2019, James Le Mesurier, the British co-founder of the Syrian rescue group known as the White Helmets, fell to his death in Istanbul. The Guardian's Middle East correspondent, Martin Chulov, knew James well and had spoken to him the week before his death.10/11/2020 shove that up yours Andre

    Reply
  12. Nic the NZer 12
    19 February 2021 at 8:15 pm

    The RBNZ should write off its entire holding of central govt debt. On present figures this would shrink govt debt by about 37%.

    This would basically achieve the govts long term debt targets overnight, and if needed the RBNZ can keep going till it gets there. The fact these check list items of political debate can be overnight ticked off via hyjinx should demonstrate they are both arbitrary and are actually bipartisan public sector austerity targets, and not markers of sound govt economic policy (by either side of the istle).

    Of course with the public debt ratios suddenly shrinking debate can move onto how to spend the windfall.

    Reply

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