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Open mike 19/12/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 19th, 2022 - 168 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

168 comments on “Open mike 19/12/2022 ”

  1. SPC 1

    The French experience the house of peine. A missed penalty kick in the semi-final here and then some more after extra time in the World Cup football final.

    • tinderdry6 1.1

      The match itself was an illustration of why football remains the most popular sport in the world.

      • Hanswurst 1.1.1

        It's a prety boring sport, if you ask me (which, of course, nobody did, but it warrants mentioning occasionally).

        • tinderdry6

          Oh, come now, you can't be serious. Football has everything – skill, athleticism, speed, drama. It truly is the beautiful game.smiley

  2. SPC 2

    Elon Much ado about nothing but himself Musk tweets – the woke mind virus is either defeated or nothing else matters.

    Caitlin Johnstone takes him at his word, and profiles who he is.

    The Ruling Class Promotes Identity Politics And 'Anti-Wokeism' For The Exact Same Reasons

    The world is roaring toward multipolarity and the empire is doing everything it can to slam on the brakes, up to and including ramping up for a global confrontation with noncompliant nuclear-armed powers, and meanwhile the public is growing more and more disaffected with stagnant wages and soaring inequality even as concerns grow that we are headed toward environmental collapse.

    So of course, at this crucial point in history, they've got everyone arguing about "wokeness".


    • Adrian Thornton 2.1

      I agree 100% with Caitlin Johnstone on who Elon Musk actually is..however his revelations confirming what most already knew, the collusion to supress the Hunter Biden story six days before the US general election are very important…and we all know that if we flipped this story and it was Trump/Republican’s caught red handed, meddling so obviously with an election, it would have been front page news on all Liberal media still now…even on our own little US/UK hand puppet, RNZ…instead of the almost total silence/obfuscation and whataboutism that we have experienced….not to mention he has also revealed that both the FBI and CIA were deeply embedded in Twiiter (and I am sure still are)….so not a nothing story at all , by any metric of how news stories might be measured..it’s just not news to the Liberal media it exposed as being shit….proving yet again how little they can be trusted in delivering fair and balanced news.

      Of course we all knew this about MSM Rightwing media long long ago, which is why that point isn’t worth discussing again here on a Left leaning forum today.

      Fairness and Balance in reporting…is there no MSM organization capable of that one simple task left in the English language?…..I can’t think of one, who am I missing?.. there must be at least one.

      • SPC 2.1.1

        the collusion to supress the Hunter Biden story six days before the US general election are very important

        Should such a story influence an election result? (and it probably would not have because of all the early voting and postal voting in 2020).

        And how was it that this story just happened to emerge at such a time anyway? Maybe some in the media were just unwilling to be played.

        The decision of Comey to announce an investigation into Clinton in the last month of a campaign in 2016 (ended just before the election) might have influenced close results in the rust belt that decided the election.

        Such issues distract from focus on governance policy.

        • Adrian Thornton

          "Maybe some in the media were just unwilling to be played"….the media is there only to report on the news and information in receives, end of story…who are they to decide if or when the public should receive that information?…unless of course that itself same media has skin in the game on a particular story, or worse still has an ideological stake in the information it is blocking the public from being informed about…which of course all US Liberal media, including Twitter and Facebook did in the Hunter Biden story…..which of course is yet another reason why public trust in Fair and Balanced reporting is at all time low's…an almost completely self inflicted wound on their part…they don't deserve out trust…which includes our own media…like RNZ who are one of the worst offenders in the NZ media landscape.

          Americans' Trust In Media Remains Near Record Low

          • SPC

            The thing is, timing news to influence election results is a corruption of the democratic process.

            • Adrian Thornton

              "timing news to influence election results is a corruption of the democratic process."…you do understand that every single political party in the entire world does that exact thing when given the opportunity right?

              • SPC

                Do you think MSM is serving the public by being manipulated? A professional and competent media estate would investigate "the source" of the "timed release" before publishing.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  God you can't be really as naive as you are making out…are you?

                  What I think isn't important. what happens in the real world is…and in the real world, indisputably, every single political party (and those acting for them) in the world, including the Democrats and NZ Labour, will and do, release whatever dirt they have on the opposition to the press at a time during the election cycle when they think it would have the most effect…and as long as the information is true (like the Hunter lap top story or Hillary's hack both were), then the media's only job is to inform the public of those facts….and remember both those stories had important, if unsavoury facts, that the public had the right to be informed of before voting.

                  …if they were neutral players they would do so…but as already established, Liberal MSM is not neutral (as the R/Wing press isn’t either)…more than not, they are active partisan players in the political process now…so in other words, not Fair and Balanced reporting by any stretch of the imagination…and I know many people on this site have powerful imaginations.

                  • SPC

                    In summary you think it is the media's job to be a cipher for manipulation, because they operate in the real world where everyone does it.

                    If you just accept the real world where everyone does it, why complain about anyone doing anything, such as operating to a partisan bias in reporting and exercise of power in self interest?

    • Incognito 2.2

      The binary bigotry of war vs. peace is polarising and divisive. It causes trench wars between camps that have much more in common than they realise but the real common enemy stays out of sight, mostly, and has successfully weaponised their moral sensibilities to set them up against each other. The Left has no defences against this subversive manipulation, which is why they lose ground and election battles, time after time.

      PS this was intended as a reply to Ed (https://thestandard.org.nz/push-back-against-tyranny-and-win/#comment-1927047) but that likely would have almost zero impact.

      • Sacha 2.2.1

        Far too easy to get the left fighting amongst ourselves. And listening to distractions.

        • Incognito

          Exactly. They make for the perfect decoy because they always fight back, each and every time. And it is for a just cause, of course. And they hate perceived traitors; Roger Douglas is a case in point but equally some so-called Left pundits or even the Parties on/of the Left when they slip up for not being ‘pure & perfect’ enough. It goes on and on …

      • adam 2.2.2

        When the US military can't account for 21 trillion dollars and your saying war vs. peace is divisive and polarising. Could I suggest if your pro the military machine at this point, your not left wing. Liberal, sure, but left wing – nope.

        • Incognito

          No, you cannot suggest any of the kind. But what you can do is to re-read my comment and specifically “[t]he binary bigotry of war vs. peace …” [emphasis added]. Besides that, sticking lazy labels with a clear derogatory intent is nothing more than a personal attack. As usual, you’ve added nothing but noise here.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    Here is a good clip with long time Democrat and anti war activist explaining how the Democratic party and by extension the Liberal class have become captured by the US war machine…..and sadly, as have many good people on this very site…

    • Ed 3.1

      What a relevant video.

      This explains what happened to sectors of the ‘liberal’left and applies in part to the parts of the left in New Zealand as well.
      Some of the most belligerent and bellicose voices can be found on this and the Daily Blog website.

    • SPC 3.2

      Glenn Greenwald

      1. Harmon and Pelosi backing illegal spying of Americans after 9/11 (GWB authorised it).

      2. the NYT not publishing the story until after the 2004 election

      3. Why Snowden did not go to MSM

  4. x Socialist 4

    This may explain why so many people are dying suddenly during the Covid epidemic.

    Sub clinical Myocarditis ( heart inflammation) without symptoms may be very common, and only identifiable if MRI scanning is used.


    ''Most striking, however, is that only nine of the athletes had symptoms of myocarditis; the vast majority of the group were diagnosed with subclinical myocarditis, based solely on findings from cardiac magnetic resonance imaging that detected inflammation in the heart muscle. The researchers say this finding likely means that a significant percentage of those in the general population who were infected with COVID-19 developed subclinical myocarditis but were never diagnosed because they weren’t screened with a cardiac MRI.''

    In 2005 myocarditis took out the only Green MP I had respect for- Rod Donald. The gulf between him and current Green Party leadership is stark.


    • weka 4.1

      This may explain why so many people are dying suddenly during the Covid epidemic.

      can you please provide the evidence that many people are dying suddenly in the past three years (other than known covid deaths)?

      Also, as far as I can tell the research is investigating sub clinical carditis in student athletes and the markers for that, with an eye on future problems if undiagnosed.

      • x Socialist 4.1.1


        Also look up Dr John Campbell on YT if you want.

        ''Also, as far as I can tell the research is investigating sub clinical in student athletes and the markers for that, with an eye on future problems if undiagnosed.''

        From the quote above:

        ''The researchers say this finding likely means that a significant percentage of those in the general population who were infected with COVID-19 developed subclinical myocarditis but were never diagnosed because they weren’t screened with a cardiac MRI.''

        I took that to mean an extrapolation of clinical results with athletes to a guesstimate of myocarditis in the general population.

        • weka

          Not everyone with carditis dies. Equally significant here is undiagnosed sub clinical damage from covid that causes problems in the future. I would guess including because of high intensity training. In other words, they could be causing further damage playing sport while undiagnosed

          • x Socialist

            Quite true. Yes, future damage is possible. I do a HIT workout once a week and I'm stuffed for 2 days afterwards. A pro sports person would be doing such workouts on a daily basis for most of the week. Inflammation would be a problem regardless of Covid.

            But could I switch things around. The athletes may have better long term outcomes than the general public because their fitness benefits outweigh the negatives they impose on their bodies by hard training?


            Jacko Gill, a NZ sports person became seriously ill at one stage This is his training schedule from Wiki:

            ''I enjoy weight-lifting, power-lifting mainly, so will lift for around four hours a day, and throw only a couple of times per week. ''

            That would kill an average man. It nearly killed Gill.

            Gill developed Myocarditis


            • weka

              most people are cavalier about covid. It's basically a lottery at this point. We were very focused in the first year or so on deaths and impacts on the health system. NZ isn't very good at disability and chronic illness. We're most likely in for some wake up calls over the next five years.

    • Robert Guyton 4.2

      You had no respect for Jeanette Fitzsimmons, Once-was-a-sort-of-socialist?

      How so?

      • x Socialist 4.2.1

        Well, Council Boy, it goes back to the late 1990s. One, Lindsay Perigo, had a TB show. During one show a recording was played of Jeanette addressing an audience.

        The most important part went something like( this was along time ago):

        ''Most would consider our policies we want to implement as communist. Therefore a Green vehicle is the best way to introduce such policies to the general public. A Green platform is something most people will understand even if they disagree with our policies.''

        • Robert Guyton

          Is that a quote (it's inside quotation marks) or just your distant remembering?

          • Incognito

            He can’t even remember if he was a Socialist once or not.

          • x Socialist

            My distant remembering. But that was the general jist. I just used quotation marks to highlight my remembering. Since then I have paid no mind to the Greens. When they went crazy over peak oil ( remember that?) I had to smile. I believe they are now big time into Climate Change. I think they should be rebranded ''The Precautionary Principle Party''

            BTW- have you heard anything about the new protocols for measuring methane? I'm still searching the internet for them. If confirmed, would that mean our methane reduction targets are redundant?

            • Sacha

              I just used quotation marks to highlight my remembering.

              Yeah, that's not how they work.

            • Robert Guyton

              We shouldn't then, pay the words you attribute to Jeanette, any heed.

              Methane? Urea in, methane out; sequestered hydrocarbons released into the atmosphere by ruminants – something has to be done.

              • x Socialist

                ''We shouldn't then, pay the words you attribute to Jeanette, any heed.''

                Of course not. That is your choice ( enjoy democracy while we still have it). But I swear on a sacred mung bean, she said words to that affect.

                ''Methane? Urea in, methane out; sequestered hydrocarbons released into the atmosphere by ruminants – something has to be done.''

                Apparently not according to Dr Tom Sheahan. He appeared on Jamie Mackay's farming show and said Methane isn't a problem. The response to this interview was quite intense. Jamie, I believe, had to invite other scientists onto the show to counter what Sheahan had said. The public had to be told the 'real truth' that is acceptable to consensus scientific, public and political opinion.

                @ 3.58


                • Robert Guyton

                  Everyone who appears on Jamie Mackay's farming show says Methane isn't a problem.

                  • Incognito

                    They would say that, wouldn’t they? Why else go on the show or listen to it? People tune in and hear what they want to hear. At best, it is infotainment, because it is clearly ‘sponsored’ content.

                  • x Socialist

                    Not Damien O'Connor. They are mates. But of course you don't listen to the show and wouldn't believe a Tory and Leftie could be mates. To be fair Damien has many views that align with the right.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.3

      Myocarditis is often a response to something else. In Rod Donald's case, a bacterial infection.

      • x Socialist 4.3.1

        Correct. And when you have sub clinical myocarditis with an unfit heart or other concurrent pathologies, a healthy person can drop dead. Pity we all can't all have a MRI scan should we catch Covid. I caught Covid a few weeks back. Had it for 3 days.

        • Incognito

          … with an unfit heart or other concurrent pathologies, a healthy person can drop dead. [my italics]

          The contradictions are like a sore thumb. Lift your game or ship out.

          • x Socialist

            Oh, yes, I forgot the word 'supposedly.'

            • Incognito

              Nope, you already used too many words that you know very little about stringed together into a hopeless mess of nonsense as with most of your comments here. The addition of one little word doesn’t change this.

              Are you now a heart specialist, public health expert, or an expert in epidemiology after you’ve had Covid-19 for 3 days?

              • x Socialist

                Tom is a forklift driver. He is unfit. He's carrying a little extra weight. He has undiagnosed diabetes. He contracts Covid; recovers and feels fine. But he also has undiagnosed sub clinical myocarditis after his bout of Covid. His wife leaves him. His cortisol levels rise with the shock of his wife leaving. That pumps glucose into his blood stream. His heart, unready under stress ( unbeknown to him), stops. People then say '' but he looked fine.''

                ”Are you now a heart specialist, public health expert, or an expert in epidemiology after you’ve had Covid-19 for 3 days?”

                No, so what?

                • Robert Guyton

                  He had undiagnosed sub clinical myocarditis long before he got Covid.

                • Incognito

                  Tom is unfit and generally unhealthy and the signs are there. And he has marital problems too, apparently. Tom’s life is a wreck and Covid is not the cause. Tom died while watching the Soccer World Cup and drinking and smoking too much and sitting in his chair far too long – the clot caused a major stroke – and they found him 2 days later.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    "Tom is a forklift driver… he's carrying a little extra weight."

                    Well, it's his job, innit!

                  • x Socialist

                    ''Tom is unfit and generally unhealthy and the signs are there. ''


                    Tom’s life is a wreck and Covid is not the cause.


                    ''Tom died while watching the Soccer World Cup and drinking and smoking too much and sitting in his chair far too long – the clot caused a major stroke – and they found him 2 days later.''

                    Possible…but the link I posted to Weka had this headline:

                    ''There are thousands more UK deaths than usual and we don’t know why''

                    Bear in mind this is just in the period from April 2022. And is not limited to Britain.

                    My first link posited a link between athletes and myocarditis during recovery from Covid. So Tom MAY still have be alive if he hadn't contracted Covid as the link also makes hints to Covid recovery and myocarditis in the general population.

                    • Incognito

                      Tom’s marital problems were not caused by Covid unless he refused to wear a mask in the bedroom.

                      How many of the deaths in the UK were student athletes? Given that Tom is not a student athlete by any stretch of the imagination you’re on highly speculative ground here and wasting our good time and sucking up our oxygen. It is déjà vu all over again.

                    • x Socialist

                      No, its not. Read my last paragraph. Tom comes into the general population demographic covered in the study.

                      Tom’s martial problems could have been a contribting factor( stress wise) to his death.

                      Sure some of it's speculative. But until these spikes in deaths are accounted for all things must be considered.

                    • Incognito []

                      Tom comes into the general population demographic covered in the study.

                      Nope, he doesn’t, as he is not a student athlete as included in the study. You invented Tom and a colourful narrative that is speculative, as even those US researchers explicitly stated. You’re making up things, as usual, but with some editorial assistance you could become a second-rate fiction writer.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      All things must be considered.

                      The diesel from Tom's forklift is a red flag for starters.

                      I'm also leaning toward the possibility that Tom's keen interest in athletes, particularly pole-vaulters, coupled with his viewing habits, were a factor.

    • mauī 4.4

      Raises some questions. From the article:

      "The rate of COVID-associated myocarditis equals or greatly exceeds the rate of vaccine associated myocarditis in most populations. Furthermore, the severity of myocarditis is much worse from an infection…”

      Given in NZ we're up to 4 recognized deaths linked to myocarditis from the vaccine. Then what would the "much worse" myocarditis from infection look like??

      [Provide a link to support your ambiguous claim “in NZ we’re up to 4 recognized deaths linked to myocarditis from the vaccine” with clarification of what you mean exactly. You’re now in Pre-Mod until you comply – Incognito]

      • Incognito 4.4.1

        Mod note

        • mauī


          You want the "Summary of Reported Deaths" section

          [Thank you, but you still have some explaining to do, as it states this:

          2 deaths were determined by the Coroner to be due to myocarditis following first dose Covid-19 (Pfizer) vaccination

          You said it was “4 recognized links”.

          Only 6 days ago, you received your final warning about spreading mis- and dis-information about Covid-19 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-12-2022/#comment-1925743) and yet here we are … – Incognito]

          [link edited]

          • Incognito

            Mod note

            • mauī

              FFS on that page it mentions a total of 4 deaths, and as another commenter has shown finding another reference linking 4 deaths is about 2 seconds of work away. Yet here we are…

              [It was not without reason for giving you your final warning 6 days ago, as you have repeatedly shown to provide unreliable inaccurate commentary about anything related to Covid-19. I’ve given you another chance today, going against my gut feeling, and you blew it.

              Your link to the Medsafe report does not state a total of 4 deaths recognized [by the Coroner] as caused by myocarditis caused by Covid-19.

              The link by ‘another commenter’ is entitled “Fourth death possibly linked to COVID-19 vaccine” [emphasis added]. It is even in the URL. Again, it doesn’t state that there have been 4 recognized deaths. It may well turn out to be the case but that link clearly states this:

              It’s important to note this case is with the Coroner who is still investigating the cause of death.

              I don’t want to waste any of my spare time on you during the summer break. Take 4 recognized weeks off and don’t get Covid if you go anywhere – Incognito]

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.4.2

        Given in NZ we're up to 4 recognized deaths linked to myocarditis from the vaccine. Then what would the "much worse" myocarditis from infection look like??

        Risk of Myocarditis After Sequential Doses of COVID-19 Vaccine and SARS-CoV-2 Infection by Age and Sex

        This is a fairly technical paper published in August, looking at 43 million people. Overall they found incidence of myocarditis was about 3.5x higher for vaccinated people following infection with covid, and 7x higher for unvaccinated people following infection with covid, compared to the incidence of mycarditis following vaccination with the Pfizer mRNA vaccine.

        Interestingly, the incidence after vaccination was relatively higher in men (especially young men) while the incidence after covid was a bit higher in women. The second dose (and only the second dose) of the moderna vaccine seemed higher risk – comparable to getting covid.

        Of course, myocarditis is probably the worst risk from the vaccines, but is just one of many risks from getting the actual disease.

      • gsays 4.4.3

        Yep, that is why pFizer recommended their drug was to be aspirated before administering. A step, by the way, when I asked for was acknowledged but then they 'forgot to do'.

        To the best of my knowledge, the PTB ignored this stipulation and aspiration was not done unless requested by the individual.

  5. ianmac 5

    Dr Peter Davis looks at whether the TVNZ/RNZ merger will rebalance our media eco-system – or whether it's just an ideological project.

    There is an air of unreality about the debate. While some may decry the proposal as an ideological project or a “marriage made in hell”, there are some very real issues in the media that we need to address, and the current proposal could be seen as a first step in the right direction.

    Thankyou Dr Davis providing an explanation on why a merger is desirable. Like 3 Waters there is so much bluster about dealing with a national need that a peasant like me needs a clear understanding of the issues.


    • millsy 5.1

      You only need to turn on TVNZ to get an argument in favour of a merger. Endless reality dreck, punctured by a similar amount of advertising. MKR, Celeb Treasure Island, etc. I really don't know how those who oppose the merger can have such little ambition for broadcasting in this country.

      • tinderdry6 5.1.1

        How will the merger take any of that drivel off our TV screens? And what will replace it that brings in the same level of advertising revenue? Or has the government indicated its intention to deliberately reduce TVNZ's revenue and pump in more taxpayers money to fund the shortfall?

        • millsy

          The government plans to give ANZPM a mandate and funding to commission content directly, rather than have to go through NZ on air, which is a flawed model. If I had my way, NZOA would be folded into the merged entity, which would deliver wall to wall docos.

          • tinderdry6

            You've missed my point. The government does not intend stopping TVNZ selling advertising, so there is no guarantee at all that the crap that is on TV won't remain on TV.

            • millsy

              When TVNZ's charter was implemented, there was an improvement in quality, as they were required to carry out public service objectives. The merged entity would be about the same. Also, there would be no expectation of the dividend by the government, which would free up cash for investment in programming.

              • tinderdry6

                The last dividend TVNZ paid was only $15m, in August 2021. Prior to that, TVNZ hadn't paid a dividend since 2018.

                According to the government, RNZ is not viable in its current form.

                So the government would be receiving little or no dividend anyway.

                I cannot see anything in the merger proposal that would drive the programs you and I both detest off the air, unless the government was prepared to foot the bill for the revenue shortfall.

                • millsy

                  The government plans to take money off NZ on Air, and give it to to the merged media company to commission content. Well that is what I understand anyway.

                  • tinderdry6

                    But even that is just shuffling money. It isn't additional investment in programming. I'm still getting my head around the merger proposal, but I will say Peter Davis' article referenced above was a useful addition to the discussion.

    • yesThanks for putting that up ianmac.

  6. Stephen D 6

    Just playing with some numbers, and wild assumptions.

    Labour get 38% = 46 seats.

    Greens get 10% = 12 seats

    TPM win 5 Māori seats = 5

    Added up is 63 and a majority.

    The problem being TPM are saying (at the moment) they won’t coalesce with anybody.

    Fun times!

    • weka 6.1

      The problem being TPM are saying (at the moment) they won’t coalesce with anybody.

      link please

        • observer

          All this "will/won't deal" talk is meaningless. The escape clauses are left wide open.

          Not being in government is a very different position from refusing even to consider support on conf/supp, or an abstention which allows a gov't to be formed.

          The only question that matters is "Would you prefer an immediate second election to a negotiation?". Nobody has ever said yes to that.

          • Incognito

            Indeed, politics is the art of compromise, which is something that many binary (and purist) thinkers can’t seem to get their heads around. One could ask them if they’re willing to get a divorce or leave their (meaningful?) relationship each time they don’t get their way.

            • observer

              The other point often missed is that it's not "go with National or Labour". Labour won’t get a majority without the Greens.

              The question for TPM should be "Would you vote against the Greens if they – for the first time ever – could be in Cabinet with Labour, no other parties involved?".

              Or more bluntly "Would you shaft your best friends in Parliament?".

              The chances of TPM doing that and making Luxon/Seymour very happy, are near zero.

              • Incognito

                I’d go as far as to suggest that TPM and GP are ahead of the other Parties in the art of compromise (and the art of seeking consensus). This has got nothing to do with their relative size (MP seats) but everything with their culture and philosophy that underpins and guides their policies. Again, this is not binary but a spectrum and political pragmatism and opportunism play important roles too, of course.

                I’d also suggest that TPM and GP are less influenced and driven by personality politics, particularly of their leaders/leadership. Perhaps this is one reason why they might attract less media attention than, say, the Twerker from Epsom.

    • Craig H 6.2

      Confidence and supply is fine, they don't have to go into a full coalition. On those numbers, would be hard to abstain on confidence and supply (the lowest possible level) as the Nats + ACT would presumably have the balance of 57 seats between them, so after the Speaker was appointed from Labour (most likely), would be 57 "normal" MPs each.

    • lprent 6.3

      The problem being TPM are saying (at the moment) they won’t coalesce with anybody.

      The loose definition of a government in our system is a MP appointed as prime minister being able to win confidence and supply votes in parliament. That is the only criteria that the crown recognises.

      No-one or no party actually has to go into a coalition with anyone. Coalitions are just an special case of support on confidence and supply, and in fact is revocable at any point in time.

      That is National’s problem, there is a reluctance for other parties to support them on confidence and supply even when they are the party with the largest number of MPs in parliament. Like 2017 when they couldn’t gain the confidence of enough MPs to allow their putative government to form.

      That is most likely because of the poor behaviour of previous governments led by National. That pattern of behaviour goes at least back to 1997 where they actively tried to disintegrate the internal coherence of NZ First while in a coalition agreement with them.

      There really is no option for TPM to sit on the fence in a hung parliament. Either they give confidence and supply votes to a PM (usually for specific policies or concessions) or they wind up forcing a new election. All of the blame for putting voters through, paying for a new election, and the economic consequences of the interim uncertainty will at TMP’s feet. It’d be unlikely that TMP would survive as a parliamentary party if that happened.

    • millsy 6.4

      Labour don't like TPM. Even though it would be in it's best interests to keep them onside. Especially since if and when they lose the maori seats to TPM, they will not get them back.

      • Incognito 6.4.1

        Labour don’t like TPM.

        Baseless assumption without any evidence to back it up and posted as an assertion. Labour may not have ‘liked’ NZF either in 2017 but they did form a Government together and held it together for a full term. Do you have any better political debating points or are you scraping the bottom of your barrel?

        • millsy

          I dont see any instances where Labour has worked with TPM, or had any cordial discussion.

          Happy to be proven wrong though.

          • Incognito

            Go for it then and give us some evidence for your baseless claim. The onus is on you.

        • weka

          Seems a reasonable statement, that Labour don’t like TPM (based on history). They used to not like the GP until the point in history when they needed them.

          • Incognito

            It is a simplistic and unsupported assertion.

            • weka

              On my phone and can’t be arsed looking or links to support my opinion, which is that Labour for a long time had a FPP mentality and took the position that things would be better if small parties were out of parliament (or out of Labour’s way). That changed at the point Labour realised they need led the GP to form govt and shifted their position of disdain to one of positive working together to change the govt.

              in contrast to the GP who had wanted that for a number of years prior.

              Then there is the Labour’s F/Seabed act, Turia leaving Labour, the formation of TPM, and TPM later going with Nat.

              • Incognito

                No, not your opinion, but millsy’s.

              • Incognito

                TPM was founded 18 years ago (has it been really that long ago?). They have undergone quite a few changes since then, I’d imagine, with a new leadership and 2 first-term MPs in 2020.

              • Robert Guyton

                "On my phone and can’t be arsed looking or links to support my opinion,.."

                One for the archives 🙂

                • weka

                  not the first person to say that ;-p

                  people need to provide links for quotes, statements of fact, and for controversial opinions relying on an assertion. I don't think comment fits that criteria, others may disagree.

      • Craig H 6.4.2

        If nothing else, TPM's voting record is quite pro-Labour so far this term. I don't know the exact stats, but when I look in Hansard at 3rd readings, TPM seem to be in favour a lot more often than not. That's not to say they support everything uncritically, but from what I've seen of their voting record, it suggests more alignment with Labour and the Greens than National and ACT.

        • Incognito

          Opinions also have a foundation in reality and millsy is going to wow us with supporting material to back-up his claim of fact. Any moment now …

          • millsy

            Jacinda didnt bring TPM into the fold after 2020. She could have easily offered them some sort of arrangement

            • Incognito

              Labour got 65 seats plus the 10 of the Green Party. TPM was new in 2020, as they didn’t win any seats in 2017, IIRC. Besides the fact that it is irrelevant you only have your reckons as to who ‘likes’ whom, which is no basis for robust debate. Lift your game.

  7. DB Brown 7

    Farmers think they can dictate their own terms, but discerning market's are not interested in their bullshit. And it's not just their non-compliance with climate regulations that will see them shut out of markets, the ever present, every growing cadmium levels are not invisible to their customers either.


    “A significant (P < 0.001) relationship between total soil Cd and total P indicated the overriding influence of P fertiliser application history on soil Cd accumulation.”


    • Robert Guyton 7.1

      On the button, DB Brown.

      Foreign markets, through industry here, will re-shape agriculture into what they want it to be.

      Protestations from the pasture-roots are just warm air.

    • bwaghorn 7.2

      Did you miss the bit where it says nz farmers are ahead of the rest, and that British farmers can offset there emmisions with things like hedges ,which we are not allowed to do!?

      • Robert Guyton 7.2.1

        NZ farmers are "allowed" to offset their emissions by planting hedge-rows. They just won't be paid by the taxpayer to do it. What possible reason would the conscious farmer have for not planting hedge-rows? Given the size of the farms here in NZ compared with those in the UK, the potential for NZ farmers to become the Climate Heroes is enormous – why aren't they leaping at the opportunity? They'd be beloved by the NZ townies, especially when they took the initiative without expectation of financial recompense!! This would be heroic stuff!

      • Sacha 7.2.2

        the bit where it says nz farmers are ahead of the rest

        That includes our non-dairy farmers. Also some greenwashing which will be found out when the data is demanded.

      • DB Brown 7.2.3

        The more the weather turns to extremes, the more our livestock need hedges, and trees, and better management.

        How some people can consider themselves world leaders while leaving their stock in the weather 24/7 365 days is beyond me. Just go stand outside for a week with, and then without, tree cover. World leaders – Bloody pulling our legs.

        • Robert Guyton

          Metrics, DB Brown; it all hinges on how you measure success. Chose your metric, you can be a winner too! Could be that our meth dealers are the best in the world as well – depends on which ruler they apply.

      • That was to encourage keeping hedge rows… as wildlife were impacted where they were removed… saw that on a British farming show.

  8. Cricklewood 8

    Was supposed to be a reply to Weka…Couple of examples below, there's not really much available on terms of cause but you'd have to think that Covid is playing a role.

    Have a neat graph from the health insurance scheme in Germany that shows an increase of about 80 per day from q1 2021 that's stayed fairly steady. Just can't figure out how to post it.



    • lprent 8.1

      Have a neat graph from the health insurance scheme in Germany that shows an increase of about 80 per day from q1 2021 that’s stayed fairly steady. Just can’t figure out how to post it.

      If it is visible somewhere on the net, then comment and press the image button (looks like some small hills) in the editor and give the the URL of the image. Set the width at about 550 and leave the height blank.

    • weka 9.1

      Better option is to live within our means rather that spending up large and expecting reality to suck that up.

      • bwaghorn 9.1.1

        Yeah but given you plan ain't gonna happen ,wouldn't it be far better if the Europeans who want freedom from the shit bags running fussing went nuclear? (In the interim while fusion gets finished)

        • weka

          I can see this is attractive if you think high tech civilisation is going to continue in perpetuity. But if climate collapses the global economy, we will have to live within our limits but the transition will be brutal (as opposed to the choices we have now).

          And then who will look after and maintain the nuclear power plants?

          Lynn has made some compelling arguments recently from a mainstream perspective about why nuclear is not a suitable option. The waste issue hasn't been solved for a start.

          But mostly it will just perpetuate all the other problems we are creating by living beyond our means, especially the ecology crises of biodiversity loss, overdevelopment, and water.

          Yeah but given you plan ain't gonna happen

          It's likely to happen if we don't transition to something sustainable (nuclear isn't). That's not fringe thought, climate scientists have been pointing this out and mainstream orgs.

          Besides, we don't have time any more, that ship has sailed. Future generations might be able to scale back up to other high tech forms of energy generation, but it's not in our immediate future, the tech just isn't close to being available at scale).

  9. millsy 10

    By all rights, my ban should be over now.

  10. gsays 11

    I was chatting to a buddy in the weekend and he was part way through a submission concerning changes with the Firearms Act changes. Full cost recovery is part of the vibe.

    On a set, if there are weapons, an armourer needs to be present. An armourer that is vetted and approved by the police. What is proposed is police to inspect all firearms at a fee of $300. He mentioned some other changes…

    What I was left with was yet another example of meddling/changes that aren’t needed and another voting block disinclined to tick for Labour come election time.

    Kinda helps explain ACT’s strong polling of late.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.1

      The core of the issue is whether you believe in "User Pays", aka "Poor People Can't Use", that slogan that the wealthy classes love to get everyone to buy into.

      • gsays 11.1.1

        While there is some truth to that, I think this change is way more dangerous than that. Folk will have to pay $300 to receive training from Police as a first barrier. The neo-liberal way doesn't stop with the gross ticket clipping.

        I have recently gone through the vetting process as my SO has applied for a license. This interview was sub-contracted out to a third party. Now we have to trust those that the police trust…

        To think for decades, this was administered by the Mountain Safety Council, including training.

        Just another example of the f***ed mindset that the powers that be posses.

        In case anyone wants to get involved:

  11. Craig H 13


    A good effort by the Labour Inspectorate, will be interesting to see the other cases in the pipeline as they reach court.

    • arkie 13.1

      Evidence of the imbalance of the justice system. Steal from 5 of your employees in over 70 breaches of the law; get fined and forbidden from running a business for three years. No jail time, not even home detention. I imagine the outcome would have been very different had it been the employees that were stealing.

      • Craig H 13.1.1

        I'd like to see wage theft criminalised to some extent, but this particular case involved civil breaches of employment law rather than criminal charges for migrant exploitation (which do exist, MBIE has prosecuted successfully before), which suggests to me that MBIE didn't see that bar as being reached in this case.

        • Sacha

          MBIE need a rocket. The shitheel's photo is not even included in the story, and he has managed to negotiate his wife out of any accountability for her part in this calculated abuse.

          • Craig H

            Not sure how it's MBIE's fault the story didn't have a photo, nor is it clear what she actually had to do with the exploitation that merited personal liability (which the shitheel would have paid anyway) or banning when, if she does run something, he can't be anywhere near it. If the Labour Inspectorate's case was, essentially, that he was the mastermind who later operated the business using her as the front person (which the judge found), then spending time and effort including her wasn't worth the delays it would have caused.

            • Sacha

              Of course media coverage is nothing to do with MBIE. Duh. Noting how few of the usual consequences he has faced.

              The story talks about negotiating her out of charges. They were both involved.

              • Craig H

                I read the article and the news release on Employment.govt.nz, but potential liability for breaches being available doesn't automatically mean that it is worth pursuing them. It's not a criminal case so only fines and bans are on the table – what value is there in going to a fully defended trial instead of taking the quicker win and getting what was likely to be the same amount of money into the victims' pockets faster?

        • Cricklewood

          Completely agree, employee steals something it's a criminal charge, when an employer steals from an employee via wage or holiday theft it's a civil matter. Criminal charges and subsequent record if found guilty would be a massive deterrent against such awful behavior.

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