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Open mike 19/04/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 19th, 2013 - 75 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

75 comments on “Open mike 19/04/2013 ”

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  1. veutoviper 1
    19 April 2013 at 7:45 am

    Did I miss something yesterday?

    I realised this morning that I did not read or hear a single item re “PM Key says …..”. This is despite the momentous success of the marriage equality legislation on Tuesday night and the Labour/Green announcement on NZ Power yesterday.

    But then I don’t watch the TV news etc or listen to radio other than RNZ National.

    BUT I get suspicious/nervous when I don’t hear the usual ‘Mr Key says …’ even when he is overseas.

    What was he up to yesterday? Where is he? Is Lord Ashcroft in town? Or Warner Bros? Or CT?

    • Salsy 1.1
      19 April 2013 at 7:53 am

      Key is dog tucker, thats why. The ponce is damaged goods – and the best National can do to try and stop the freefall is to get him out of the spotlight.

      Interstingly, so many here have worried about Key versus Shearer in election debates. But think about Shearer versus Collins or Joyce. The dynamics change…. Sometimes politics is a long and slow game of chess..

    • Red Rosa 1.2
      19 April 2013 at 8:23 am

      Good point. There is something badly wrong for Key not to show, normally he would be all over this. My guess is that the DotCom situation is finally and messily unraveling. It is in court at present, so maybe the truth will out shortly… and the senior Nats know it. But without Key, Joyce et al are totally at sea.

      • karol 1.2.1
        19 April 2013 at 8:33 am

        Yes, very good point. The last seen of Key in the MSM is this:

        Prime Minister John Key faced more questions yesterday over the July 2011 conversation in which he suggested his former childhood acquaintance should apply to become director of the Government Communications Security Bureau. …

        Mr Key was asked to explain to Parliament how he had Mr Fletcher’s telephone number in Australia.

        “No clue . . . I genuinely have no clue. I do not know how I got the number,” he said at first.

        But pressed by Labour’s deputy leader, Grant Robertson, he replied: “I did not, at that point, have Ian Fletcher’s mobile phone number. To the best of my knowledge, I actually rang the directory service to get the Queensland number. I do not actually have his number.”

        The service redirected the call to Mr Fletcher’s mobile, he said.

        Afterwards he said he couldn’t be “100 per cent sure” if he or his secretary rang directory services.

        • ianmac 1.2.1.1
          19 April 2013 at 9:02 am

          I thought that had been further corrected that Directory Service does not give out Mobile numbers?

          • felix 1.2.1.1.1
            20 April 2013 at 9:13 am

            He says he was given a landline number which redirected to Fletcher’s mobile.

            Odd and very detailed recollections from someone who only moments earlier said he genuinely had no clue how he came by Fletcher’s number, and who had previously said he already had Fletcher’s number.

    • karol 1.3
      19 April 2013 at 6:38 pm

      Key popped up on TV3 News tonight to say that the Labour-Green Power policy was barking mad. He was somewhere outdoors in a fairly rural area – looked quite haggard to me, though it might just have been the lighting.

  2. Red Rosa 2
    19 April 2013 at 7:51 am

    Signs that ordinary NZ’ers are waking up to National Party greed and arrogance with that dip in the polls. And emphasized by their hysterical reaction to the power market reforms last evening.

    Ironic to hear the word ‘Stalinist’ trotted out, when Key has proposed extending the powers of his spy agency, the K-GCSB, to become NZ’s Stasi. And retrospectively, of course, to get DotCom at the behest of the Americans.

    A few other choice little items they may be pondering. Like the DoC cuts, then far more govt $’s being dumped into ‘high-end’ tourism. And the boost to subsidies for elite private religious schools, while state schools are struggling. And the attacks on environmental controls, along with the irrigation subsidies. Nice work if you can get it. 99% of NZ’ers can’t.

    We are being asked to ‘trust’ this government on the TPP. This is being conducted in unprecedented secrecy, for the benefit of the US. We have a free trade agreement with China, openly arrived at, and kept our Pharmac too. So what’s with this ‘ally’?

    The slickest PM for a long time is leading NZ up the garden path. And it will take more than bumbling David Shearer to get stuck in, and to motivate those non-voters to do the same.

    • weka 2.1
      19 April 2013 at 8:45 am

      “The slickest PM for a long time is leading NZ up the garden path”

      It’s what’s at the end of that path that worries me.

    • ghostrider888 2.2
      19 April 2013 at 1:44 pm

      Shearer’s deliveries are improving.

  3. vto 3
    19 April 2013 at 8:35 am

    So Pike River Coal (the company) has been found guilty by Judge Farish of causing the deaths of 29 men.

    Did New Zealand hear that? The company caused the deaths of 29 men. The company, of course, is its owners in a wider sense. Chairman John Dow, directors such as Chch man Stuart Natrass, the top managers like Whittall. These men caused the deaths of these men.

    and now that all just gets left to hang ……………………………………

    If this (the mining) was done in a personal capacity the charges would have been against the individuals and there would be consequences. The fact that a limited liability company was used protects these men from their actions….. But this is not what the limited liability company is for. It is to limit capital liability. Yet here it is being relied on for something not originally intended to be lmited i.e. effectively criminal and corporate negligence leading to death.

    Perhaps in light of 29 men being killed it is time to look at a stricter definition of the limited liability company. Limit it to capital only, as originally intended, and any other acts of a non-capital nature by a company are deemed conducted in various of personal capacities.

    If that was implemented what do you think Dow and Nattrass and Whittal have done differently? I suspect shitloads.

    ..

    Further, the Pike River guilty verdict nails home the final nail in the coffin of deregulation and free market forces left to run unhindered.

    Freedom to act in a manner based on the self-inrterest of the individual, as promoted still today by dinosaurs like Joyce and Act, does not serve society. This is now proved beyond doubt.

    29 dead men Joyce, 29 dead men. Caused by your philosophy on how business should work. You are a deadly failure and people should be very aware of trusting your ideas on society lest they end up dead.

    • karol 3.1
      19 April 2013 at 8:44 am

      Thanks for that, vto. Yes, among all the other stuff going on yesterday (especially the power announcement), this was covered in the media, but not as much as it should be.

    • Pascal's bookie 3.2
      19 April 2013 at 9:21 am

      Word v.

      Every word.

    • weka 3.3
      19 April 2013 at 9:28 am

      Corporate manslaughter legislation.

    • DH 3.5
      19 April 2013 at 9:46 am

      We’re seeing a repeat with forestry, they’re just dying one by one so it doesn’t sound so bad each time. Since Helens last post on the subject I’ve read of one death and a serious injury.

      I agree that employers should be held responsible but I do think it’s the job of Govt to make sure these deaths don’t occur in the first place. Pike River should have been a big wake up call and yet the forestry situation shows they’ve learnt nothing or if they have they’ve decided to ignore it.

      • vto 3.5.1
        19 April 2013 at 9:51 am

        I agree DH. Unfortunately this lot of kids in government will not see these things so the only way the change needed to stop men being killed dead is for a new government to come which regards lives as a priority.

        Re Pike River and its directors Nattrass and Dow, manager Whittal and then the government men which changed the health & safety regime such as Bill Birch disgust me. They are pigs of people. Each one of them has at various times issued statements saying they do not accept responsibility, despite enquiries and courts stating time and time again that they and their actions were responsible.

        As I say, Bill Birch, John Dow, Stuart Nattrass, Peter Whittal – pigs of people. The proof is all there.

  4. weka 4
    19 April 2013 at 9:08 am

    Lynn, for the past day or so I’ve been getting lots ‘unresponsive script’ messages (from firefox, mac) when loading ts pages. It seems to happen near the end of the loading time, and it stops me from being able to scroll the page while it is loading.

    Is that likely to be something at your end or mine?

  5. Te Reo Putake 5
    19 April 2013 at 10:05 am

    I see the National party’s stooge in Epsom is going to be appearing in court to face an electoral dodginess charge. Shame it had to be a private prosecution, Banksie, but better than nothing!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10878452

    • Pascal's bookie 5.1
      19 April 2013 at 10:19 am

      He really should release that Police statement he’s been keeping under wraps. Better now than on the stand.

    • yeshe 5.2
      19 April 2013 at 10:20 am

      thx TRP ..you just beat me to it … but if found guilty, does he not have to resign from the house ? and any idea of how long this prosecution might take to be in court ?

      • Te Reo Putake 5.2.1
        19 April 2013 at 10:33 am

        Pascal’s bookie beat both of us to it over on the Roy Morgan post; the house always wins!

        I would expect 2-3 days for the case to be heard, and a reserved decision released a few weeks later. If convicted, I seem to recall that expulsion from the house depends on the gravity of the possible sentence, something like if its potentially jail, then a resignation must follow. So, if its regarded as serious as, say, Philip Field’s offences, then Banks is gone. However, if its on the order of Mallard’s frank and honest exchange of views with Tau Henare, then he may survive.

      • Pascal's bookie 5.2.2
        19 April 2013 at 10:34 am

        Reliable sources report that if he loses he will have to stand down, yes, unless the learned judge decides he deserves to be discharged without conviction.

        • yeshe 5.2.2.1
          19 April 2013 at 10:44 am

          thx .. so does the case come up immediately with this ruling ? many thx to the man who is pursuing this … this could disintegrate the wobbly pack of liars …

  6. johnm 6
    19 April 2013 at 10:38 am

    “The myth
    ‘Strivers versus skivers’ purports to sum up our welfare state, and why, therefore, the benefits system should be reformed.
    “There are two distinct groups of people, one good and one bad; individuals choose to be in one group or the other. ‘Strivers’ work hard and put money into the economy while ‘skivers’ are just lay-abouts who take money out. Claiming benefits traps people in dependency, which is a social evil, passed from one generation to the next. People not in paid work contribute nothing of value to society.”
    The myth divides people against each other and creates a scapegoat. If people are finding life a struggle they can blame the skivers rather than anything else. This story helps to justify what might otherwise be unpopular economic policies, like spending cuts and punitive welfare-to-work policies.”

    ———————————-

    “The division between strivers and skivers is a false one. Increasingly, people are forced to shuttle between spells of unemployment and short-term, low-paid insecure jobs. All but a tiny minority of jobless people are out of work because they are disabled, have caring responsibilities or simply cannot find a job. Much more of the social security budget is used to subsidise low wages than to support jobseekers, and receipt of benefits tends not to cause long-term or intergenerational dependency. Some people’s work is unpaid, but that doesn’t make it any less valuable.

    There is nothing disreputable about being dependent. We are all dependent on others at certain points in our lives – when we are young, sick and old, as well as when we find ourselves without enough to live on. This is a positive, defining characteristic of a flourishing society: that we all depend on and care for one another in different ways, as our needs and resources change over time. We need a benefits system that respects and supports this – not one that fosters division, competition and looking after ‘number one’.”

    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-04-18/mythbusters-strivers-versus-skivers

    • Pascal's bookie 8.1
      19 April 2013 at 12:11 pm

      What is the “Official Boston terrorist narrative”?

    • marty mars 8.2
      19 April 2013 at 3:57 pm

      No longer able to effectively trot out the scripted official story that a white right-wing extremist has been apprehended, the perpetrators of the government false flag are now forced to shut down the original plan and formulate an alternative scenario.

      The government now has new “persons of interest” – alternative patsies – and has ordered the corporate media to ignore the Plan A patsy. It has also issued instructions that the suspicious special ops military or private security contractor personnel photographed roaming around after the attack are to be ignored. The fallback plan will now be that the perpetrators are Arab, possibly al-Qaeda or some other shadowy Salafist group.

      Indisputable evidence that the government has conducted a false flag designed to demonize and criminalize its political enemies is now out there for all to see. It is up to the people to act on the indisputable evidence we have provided and bring the real criminals to justice.

      I wonder why the fallback plan was the Arab one. Seems like they should just reissue the first one again but call them a new splinter group rather than go all the way back and then up a new path towards the Arabs. That just doesn’t stack up imo. The “white right-wing extremist” angle was the “original plan” and it is way too early to change it and they wouldn’t, change it that is. These are the Governments “political enemies” remember – they want to get them and smear them and they wouldn’t stop at the first hurdle, they’d keep going until the smear was complete – they couldn’t afford to do anything different – too risky. Also if this was a false flag then they have surrendered just after starting – you don’t put all the effort into a genuine false flag to pull the plug just after zero hour. So I don’t agree with alex that he has forced them to shut down the original plan in fact this makes the water more murky not less which is just what those black ops crew love.

      http://www.infowars.com/government-caught-in-boston-bombing-false-flag-cover-up/

  9. Penny Bright 9
    19 April 2013 at 11:40 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10878452

    Graham McCready, Informant for New Zealand Private Prosecution Service Limited, has been successful.

    Judge IG Mill has ordered that the Registrar of the Wellington District Court issue a summons for John Archibald Banks to appear in the Auckland District Court to answer to an indictable charge of knowingly transmitting a false electoral return as a candidate in the Auckland Super City City election in 2010.

    http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=6186600&da=y

    What is this going to do for National’s wafer-thin majority?

    Has Prime Minister John Key stood down John Banks as a Minister yet?

    If not – why not?

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner
    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1
      19 April 2013 at 12:32 pm

      What is this going to do for National’s wafer-thin majority?

      Absolutely nothing unless the good people of Epson decide to vote in Labour’s candidate.

      • Penny Bright 9.1.1
        19 April 2013 at 11:00 pm

        What happens if there is a by-election in Epsom caused by John Banks leaving Parliament, when a lot of legislation is scraping through 61 votes to 60?

        From the time Banks left Parliament until the time a new MP was elected – wouldn’t that leave National without that pivotal one ACT vote, for legislation which was not supported by the Maori Party – ie: 60 – 60?

        What then?

        Penny Bright

        ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner
        2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

        PS: Judge Mill’s decision, explaining his reasons for issuing a summons for John Banks to attend the Auckland District Court, for a charge of alleged electoral fraud is available here:

        http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/

        • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.1
          20 April 2013 at 10:46 am

          What then?

          National won’t even try to pass the real nasty policies for 6 weeks and then the new National MP will vote for it.

          I’ll be happy to see John Banks out of politics but don’t think it will change the government because it won’t. If you want to do that then your best bet would be to get rid of Paula Bennett. IMO, that would return a Labour MP and destroy National’s majority possibly resulting in a snap election.

  10. karol 10
    19 April 2013 at 12:24 pm

    The Ports of Auckland-MUNZ dispute has re-ignited.

    The Maritime Union and the Ports of Auckland are at loggerheads again, with their dispute being escalated straight to the Employment Court.

    The union has accused the port company of not acting in good faith and has cited port actions going as far back as November 2011 when the company began planning to employ contractors rather than union-aligned workers.

  11. veutoviper 11
    19 April 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Things have gone a bit quiet on Key’s proposals to change the GCSB legislation over the last few days, with everything else that has been going on.

    So I am pleased to see an excellent opinion piece has now popped up on the Herald online by Gehan Gunasekara arguing against the proposed changes from the point of view of the dangers of ‘mission creep’ in the proposed new powers. Well worth reading.

    Gehan Gunasekara is an associate professor in commercial law at the University of Auckland Business School, specialising in information privacy law.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10878343

    • Murray Olsen 11.1
      20 April 2013 at 2:05 am

      This reminds me of an interview I read with an Admiral who had been part of the Brazilian military junta. He was asked why they never formally legalised torture. His reply was that they didn’t need to, because they knew that the cops and the intelligence guys would always go 50% past what was authorised. I suspect this is a pretty general rule, and it makes me wonder just how much further the K-GCSB will actually go.

  12. vto 12
    19 April 2013 at 1:14 pm

    In Christchurch you may recall there has been a precedent setting case between the O’Loughlins and the insurance company Tower.

    The Oloughlins had a house that needed repairs only. The govt came along and zoned it Red which meant that they had to move and live elsewhere. They claimed that the insurance company needed to pay for full replacement rather than just repair because their house a write-off due to the earthquakes and their effect.

    Tower claimed it had to only pay the cost of repair.

    No resolution so off to court they want – all very high profile.

    So, it turns out today that the parties have reached a settlement. A confidential settlement. This case was due to set a precedent in Chch with disputes with insrurance companies and now we will never know whether the insurance company was on the ropes.

    If Tower assessed they were about to lose the case then it is in their very high interest to settle confidentially and out of court so that every other disputant in town does not latch onto the same or similar precedent.

    Sneaky-arsed insurance companies – don’t want their customers to know what their true rights are.

    The wearying war continues.

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    19 April 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Astronomers find most Earth-like planets yet

    The first, 62e, is about 40 percent larger than Earth. It might be warm and may experience flashes of lightning, said Borucki.

    The second, 62f, is about 60 percent larger than our planet, and orbits its star every 267 days, close to Earth’s annual trajectory of 365 days.

    The planet may have polar caps, significant land masses and liquid water, Borucki said.

    Both are orbiting a seven-billion-year-old star some 1,200 light years from Earth in the constellation Lyra.

    Yep, two of them orbiting the same star and it’s a couple of billion years older than our own sun. The next step is finding a way to detect life on these far distant planets.

    • vto 13.1
      19 April 2013 at 1:51 pm

      Now that is exciting, especially that they live in the constellation of lycra. Always wondered where that stuff came from.

    • ghostrider888 13.2
      19 April 2013 at 1:51 pm

      drop them a line D.

    • karol 13.3
      19 April 2013 at 2:02 pm

      Is it anywhere near Planet Key? If so, can we just beam him home?

      I read that article earlier. I’m not really much into space reality, preferring space fiction, and the reality of life on earth.

      But I was intrigued by that article- if advanced life there, what would it be like?

      • McFlock 13.3.1
        19 April 2013 at 2:58 pm

        Neither of them can be Planet Key.
        They are both too similar to Earth.

        I’ve always envisaged Planet Key as being a small, harsh, and dense planet covered with a brutal and storm-ridden atmosphere of corrosive gas.

        • karol 13.3.1.1
          19 April 2013 at 3:20 pm

          the deserts of the real!

          I said near to, not one of the planets.

          • McFlock 13.3.1.1.1
            19 April 2013 at 3:27 pm

            ah, my apologies 🙂

            Do you think it might be closer to the hot hell of a star, or much farther out in the lifeless chill of the eternal void?

      • emergency mike 13.3.2
        20 April 2013 at 3:20 am

        “if advanced life there, what would it be like?”

        Who knows, but if they have any WMDs I’m afraid we’ll be obliged to regime change their arses. Or at least send John Key at them to persuade them that selling their assets would be best for everyone.

    • The Al1en 13.4
      19 April 2013 at 5:44 pm

      “The next step is finding a way to detect life on these far distant planets.”

      Shouldn’t we concentrate on confirming intelligent life on this one first?

      “the constellation of lycra. Always wondered where that stuff came from.”
      “more interested in where it disappears to”

      It’s a bit of a stretch, but from my observations, it’s mostly Uranus.

  14. vto 14
    19 April 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Lake Brunner on the west coast is being “remediated” to basically clean up the shit that farming has dumped in it. It is being attended to by the local council and paid for by the ratepayers of the wider region and the taxpayers of NZ.

    Question: If the local farmers made this mess then why aren’t they cleaning it up? or at the very minimum paying for it?

    Any farmers out there like to comment?

    • weka 14.1
      19 April 2013 at 5:11 pm

      The FedFarmers version:

      “It’s my land, I can do what I want”

      “making my farm profitable is the most important thing”

      “farming is the backbone of this country, so stop your whining”

      “we’ve stacked the Regional Council with our mates, so you should just give up now”

      “nothing wrong with a bit of pollution anyway, it’s the natural order of things”

      “there is no such thing as manmade climate change”

      (apologies to all the NZ farmers who do give a shit)

  15. Rogue Trooper 15
    19 April 2013 at 2:18 pm

    these coinkydinks are pretty Waco-schmacko;
    -20th anniversary of Mt Carmel
    -18th anniversary of Oklahama
    -Fertilser
    -in the town of West.

    did you know, that the zoo-keeper killed by the elephant had not had a day off in two-and-a-half years due to financial constraints and lack of staff;
    (can’t, or won’t, or is your man a jaffa?)

    or, that regarding this hoovering up iron-sands that scientists have warned “we know very little about these ecosystems”. (90% of the sand is returned to the ocean floor; how efficient is that?).

    or,

    “that when China sneezes the rest of the world gets a cold”?

    from The Boy With The Tape on His Face
    amidst The Infinite Sadness

    GOD
    is (not)
    Dead
    because the gospels according to John tell us so : The King is Dead : Long Live The King

  16. Pete 16
    19 April 2013 at 3:01 pm

    David Shearer’s press secretary quits

    Her replacement as director of media and communications in Shearer’s office has not yet been announced.

    *Crosses fingers and chants:”Please don’t be a Pagani. Please don’t be a Pagani. Please don’t be a Pagani.”*

  17. Morrissey 17
    19 April 2013 at 4:43 pm

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 1: Barack Hussein Obama

    “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty’.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-dies-tributes-obama

  18. marty mars 18
    19 April 2013 at 5:57 pm

    There are some good housing initiatives for Māori and one is underway in Tauranga but bob clarkson has spoken out because

    But Mr Clarkson said it was not fair for one section of the community to be eligible for funds when many in the wider population also suffered.

    The city council last year “shot down” his plan to provide 1000 affordable homes for $280,000 each. Everyone should be able to access affordable housing, no matter what colour their skin was, he said.

    he did preface his comments with the old, “”It’s bloody lovely. I’ve got nothing against Maori but…” line but it doesn’t lesson his lowness.

    It is a dedicated contestable fund for grants dimbob try moaning to the real people that make the decisions. I can’t stand the bitterness that uses Māori as a weapon when it isn’t even anything to do with them.

    http://www.bayofplentytimes.co.nz/news/anger-over-homes-for-maori/1836297/

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/bitter-bob.html

  19. NickS 19
    19 April 2013 at 6:32 pm

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/private-schools-could-receive-taxpayer-funding-increase-5411270

    T_T

    Once more National’s engaging in welfare for friends, helping to prop up private schools that really should just tighten their belts.

  20. Te Reo Putake 20
    19 April 2013 at 6:52 pm

    It’s all kicking off near Boston. One suspect captured, according to CBS, the other on the run. Lots of gunfire and some use of explosives.

  21. Huginn 21
    19 April 2013 at 8:55 pm

    Wow, now we all know why the authorities were searching frantically for Sunil Tripathi.

    http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981864024

  22. Lanthanide 22
    19 April 2013 at 10:16 pm

    So 12 new posts today, including Weekend Social and Open Mic. Is that a new record?

  23. TheContrarian 23
    20 April 2013 at 12:18 am

    Chechnya? That’s weird and unexpected

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  • New workforce frameworks support improved responses to family violence
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  • New Matariki resources available for schools and kura
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  • Startup Advisors Council appointed
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  • Positioning the Māori media sector for the future
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  • Speech for TRENZ Hui 2022: “Ready to Welcome”
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  • Boosting the Māori economy through Progressive Procurement
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  • Continuing to improve Māori employment outcomes through Cadetships
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  • NZ commits to enduring partnership with Solomon Islands
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  • NZ committed to enduring partnership with Solomon Islands
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  • New Zealand Country Statement to the Seventy-fifth World Health Assembly, Geneva
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  • Passport fees to increase from 25 May
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  • Additional government support for Buller District flood recovery
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  • Government investment boosts coastal shipping in Aotearoa
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  • Speech on RM Reform to the Thomson Reuters Environmental Law and Policy Conference: 24 May 2022
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  • Whānau Resilience focuses on wāhine and rangatahi
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  • Increase in funding secures future for Whānau Ora
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  • New Zealand to stay at Orange for now
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  • Independent panel appointed to review electoral law
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  • Board appointed for Auckland’s most transformational project
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  • Government continues record Māori Education investment
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  • NZ to provide additional deployment to support Ukraine
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