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Open mike 19/07/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 19th, 2016 - 82 comments
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82 comments on “Open mike 19/07/2016”

  1. Paul 1

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    Anyone who voted this government in.

    A large proportion of New Zealand teenagers are living in poverty, a study has revealed.
    The research from Auckland University showed almost one in five secondary school students and nearly half of all Pacific students were struggling.
    Significant differences between ethnicities were highlighted, with about one third of Maori students living in households experiencing poverty.
    Published in the International Journal for Equity in Health, the study used data from the Youth 2012 study of 8500 students.
    It grouped students by household poverty based on nine indicators of deprivation:
    * No car
    * No phone
    * No computer
    * Parental worry about not having enough food
    * More than two people sharing a bedroom
    * No holidays with family
    * Moving home more than twice a year
    * Garages or living rooms used as bedrooms
    * No parent at home with employment.
    Students needed to report two or more indicators before being classed as experiencing poverty, while researchers also examined the interaction between household deprivation and depressive symptoms, smoking and obesity.
    Senior lecturer and co-author of the report Dr Terry Fleming said some results mirrored those found by the Ministry of Social Development and the Child Poverty Action Group.
    But the suggestion such a large proportion of Pacific youth were living in poverty was worrying.
    “When you start excluding a community or ethnic group to that extent that’s pretty harmful.”



    • stunned mullet 1.1

      So you could have no car and no holidays with the family and be classed as living in poverty………

      I never knew I was so poor.

      • dv 1.1.1

        NOPE 9 factors NOT 2

        • Blackcap

          I think the article states that if you miss 2 of the 9 factors then you are classed as living in poverty.

          • McFlock

            Not quite.

            If children reported that their household was missing 2 of nine factors, then that was a hardship analog for poverty.

            I might have no car, but I don’t have to get kids to school or sports practise.
            I might have no holidays with family, but I can take a holiday any time.
            I might have no computer at home, but this will not impact on my education.
            I have a bedroom, but I only need one – I don’t have someone sleeping in my living room.

            As soon as it’s not just about me, but about the kids I’m responsible for as well, then some of those indicators aren’t quite so easy to scoff at.

          • dv


        • Tom

          I see some quite poor people, never seen one without a phone! If no car is a sign of poverty then we must be a rich Nation. Haven’t we one of the highest rates of car ownership in the OECD> So if you dont have all 9 your not in poverty? I am not sure what your saying!

          • McFlock

            You’re not sure what other people are saying, and you cut and paste your confusion in two comments.

      • Paul 1.1.2

        Your regular contributions to this site only confirm the point I make.
        We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under Key’s wretched leadership

      • Lanthanide 1.1.4

        Yeah, this is a pretty silly set of indicators to use in such a blunt fashion, as clearly No car, No phone, No computer and no family holidays have other explanations than “poverty” as being the cause of them.

        Instead it should be a points system, where you have to get 40 points to be considered in poverty, and things like no phone would score 10 points, whereas things like “garages or living rooms used as bedrooms” would count as 25 points.

        • McFlock

          I’m not sure that I’d want to raise kids without a phone or a car or a computer or even a family holiday for a week or so with relatives.

          Me? I can do without three of those standing on my head. But if I were raising kids, they’re more important for the child’s education and socialisation.

          • Lanthanide

            1. Maybe you live very close to a library, and your child isn’t obsessed with screens so they don’t need constant access to a computer / internet.
            2. Maybe you don’t have any relatives in the country to visit.
            3. Maybe your family doesn’t have anyone who can or needs to drive a car, and your child is encouraged to use their own bike to get everywhere.
            4. Maybe you just don’t need a phone, because you get on really closely with your neighbors and you just use theirs.

            I’ll admit that #4 is a bit grasping, but the others aren’t too unreasonable.

            My point is that not having 2 of those particular 4 things shouldn’t put you in to “poverty”. If you had 3 of those things, or 2 of those things + one of the other more important ones? Fine. But that’s why a more sophisticated scoring system should be used. I’m sure it wouldn’t take more than a few hours to come up with a system than it is better than simply “2 strikes and you’re out”.

            The list conspicuously doesn’t mention anything about electricity being cut off or limited use of heating during winter due to prices, which are pretty good indicators as well. Better than “do you go on family holidays”.

            Growing up, my family seldom went on holidays, because my parents were saving all their extra money to take us on a 5-week overseas holiday when I turned 12. Turns out they only needed 1/3rd of the money they eventually saved up, so when we came back they bought a car, a new computer and put an extension on the house. But we weren’t in poverty – it was just a choice my parents made.

            • McFlock

              Good for you, I guess.

              You can put together a maybe about any of those factors. That doesn’t make it likely or reasonable. For example, these days “computer at home” is equivalent to “has school text books”.

              The list mentions long term things that the kids would be aware of, because it’s the kids being surveyed. They wouldn’t know that, for example, a friend of mine turns off all home heating during winter whenever her kids are out.

              But if you really want to critique the research, go read it rather than basing your criticism off a news report. And yes, some reasonably complex analyses are used to arrive at the deceptively simple “2 strikes” level reported in the news stories.

        • Sabine

          well anyone whithout a mobile phone would have an issue finding a job and may even could not keep a job if not ‘available’ on the ring of the bell.

          anyone without a car especially rural or semi rural areas would have an issue finding a job, take kids to school or doctor or just go to the next supermarket – and would then be futher taxed by having to buy at a local dairy at a higher price

          anyone without a computer or access to a computer and internet would have an issue finding a job or doing study / homework especially in rural semi rural areas where there may be a shortage of libraries that offer access to computer/printer/internet for free

          anyone who can’t offer their children a holiday programme or can afford to take time of during school holidays (or even is permitted to do so) and need help from whanau to not leave children unsupervised during 8 weeks of summer holiday may want to disagree with you.

          I think we need to see Point 1 – 9 not so much as luxury items. This is not the seventies anymore, people in this day and age can not well function without these items. Btw. I don’t have a mobile phone, but then i am 10 hours a day in my business and I have a landline. Not having a phone means literally that one is invisible and non existent.

          Seriously what is poor for you? Half starved in a ditch?

    • Tom 1.2

      I see some quite poor people, never seen one without a phone! If no car is a sign of poverty then we must be a rich Nation. Haven’t we one of the highest rates of car ownership in the OECD;

      • mauī 1.2.1

        Your perceptions aren’t reality though, if you want reality talk to people from the Mission, Food banks and charities who see what’s going on every day.

      • Paul 1.2.2

        Get out more then.

  2. Paul 2

    All Russian sport to be banned from the Olympics due to doping.
    Russian hooligans turn up in Marseille during Euro 2016

    Anyone else think all this is just a bit too convenient given the war games NATO is playing in the Baltic, Poland and Ukraine at the moment?

    Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship…
    Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

    Hermann Goering


    • ianmac 2.1

      Russians banned from the Olympics? All the more medals for NZ.
      So USA banned from the Olympics? Even more medals for NZ.
      And ban Africa, Canada, Australia… 🙂

      • mpledger 2.1.1

        I’m not sure about that. Aren’t they only sending people who have a chance of a medal anyway? The ones who would have benefited aren’t getting sent.

    • stunned mullet 2.2

      Yes clearly a plot by the reverse vampires in cahoots with the lizard people.

  3. Paul 3

    The media is the problem.
    Propaganda about Corbyn, Syria, the Ukraine, Iraq…
    Feed the plebs with stories about Instagram postings by celebrities.
    The decline and fall of Rome had many similarities.

  4. ianmac 4

    For the last 12 months I have had a $200 sub for an online Ancestory research program. It was OK, as it found a family 19 generations back. But watch out.
    I had apparently ticked a box 12 months ago which said it would automatically roll over for another year. Which it did yesterday to the tune of $333. But I had gone as far as I wanted. Stop. I say stop and desist. They said I couldn’t stop. Committed! A phone call last night from I think the Philippines, and a fierce defence of my right to withdraw, and I may have had the contract cancelled.
    My point is beware of what you sign up for!

    • Graeme 4.1

      The same goes for Adobe. I bought a month’s subscription to Photoshop a while ago to edit an add for the shop, my old version wouldn’t open the file so had to get the current one. Thought I’d selected all the right options for a single month, non-renewing subscription, but no. A month later Adobe are trying to take another month out of my card.

      Unfortunately (for Adobe) they weren’t getting anywhere as I’d used a burner debit card (Loaded Card) that I use for online purchases. I transfer the required amount onto immediately prior to use and generally all’s good.

      The upshot with Adobe is that they tried to get the payment for 21 days and then gave up. Adobe’s conditions turned out to be that subscriptions could only be canceled when the subscription was current, or would automatically renew. Adobe did say they would refund if it was canceled within a short time (10 days?). That all came out after the obligatory chat with the robot.

      Moral of the story, try and read, and comprehend the conditions when you buy from these online outfits, and expect inertia marketing. It’s an insidious practice but how these globalised pricks roll.

      • ianmac 4.1.1

        But the process is pretty sneaky Graeme. I wonder how many people get caught out and are unable to know how to argue to cancel. Its a bit like the single phrase buried in pages of Insurance policies as opposed to key rules in big print. I think I will assume that they are all out to get me.

        • Graeme

          “I wonder how many people get caught out and are unable to know how to argue to cancel. ”

          The answer to this is unfortunately a significant amount. Often the amounts aren’t that large, so cardholders don’t bother following up odd small transactions, then spending hours arguing with a robot or $2/hr call centre. A lot of card fraud also works like this, lots of small innocuous transactions adding up to a huge amount.

          On the consumer protection side they give lip service and will try and negotiate the best deal for them that they can. The call centre location / robot algorithm is set up to maximise their opportunity. So you’ll end up arguing with someone from a culture with inherent negotiating abilities, and incentivised to get the best deal. The only moderation now is the power of social media, once their practices start to hurt them, they back off or run out of customers.

          Another aspect to the online wide boys is taxation. Generally these purchases don’t attract any sales tax anywhere, and profits get a bit amorphous, so no income tax, anywhere.

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.2

        Unfortunately (for Adobe) they weren’t getting anywhere as I’d used a burner debit card (Loaded Card) that I use for online purchases. I transfer the required amount onto immediately prior to use and generally all’s good.

        Clever. One to remember.

  5. jcuknz 5

    The first three poverty factors of Paul’s survey are a joke when I think back on my life…. no car … cars were too expensive ….no phone …. even today I only need a phone to connect to the web …. No computer …. they were only in universities and Sinclair had not brought out the ZX80.

    OK I know things change but perhaps people need to get a grip on what things really matter in life and starting out. Some of the other factors are suspect too like sleeping in the living-room and bedroom numbers. Well into ‘life’ I was living in a converted stable with just power and cold water, outside privy … maybe that was poverty but it was adequate and cheap …. I had been sleeping in the firm’s darkroom before somebody found a better place to live with her husband and passed the stable onto me.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1

      You didn’t have a Sinclair ZX80 therefore there is no poverty in New Zealand. Do you even believe the shit you type?

      OK, OK, I know that your entire sense of self-worth hangs on complete drivel, and examining it makes you uncomfortable, and it’s easier to simply regurgitate the lies you were spoonfed, but seriously; is that the best you can do?

      As for the Auckland University study, I note your feeble attempt to belittle its provenance says lots about you and nothing at all about the study.

    • Paul 5.2

      Your contributions above only confirms the point I make.
      We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under Key’s wretched leadership.

      Are you happy to live in a country where this happens?

    • Ad 5.3

      Would’ve been a palace to us!

      • Gangnam Style 5.3.1

        When I was young I had to walk uphill in bare feet both ways to get to the salt mines, kids today with their fancy shoes & smart phones don’t know how lucky they are, sarc.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.4

      Yes, things have changed.

      1. Our cities have been designed to be car dependent making it essential to own a car. It’s not optional any more.
      2. Did you know that it was a requirement to get the unemployment benefit to own a phone? WINZ don’t pay for the phone of course.
      3. Computers to have become mandatory. They encase many things including schooling, political engagement, research and many other things that are part and parcel of today’s society.

      If we followed your logic the Industrial Revolution would never have happened as nobody would have learned maths because back in my day we didn’t need it.

      • jcuknz 5.4.1

        Draco …. Your points merely confirm my opinion of how society has gone on a wrong materialistic path …. I gather some call it Neoliberalism … a fancy word for a lack of common sense.

        • Draco T Bastard

          The first point was all about making profit. A car in each driveway produces far more profit than the entire number of buses needed to move a city. It’s actually a large part of the proof that the profit motive brings about the worst possible outcome rather than the best as our economists and RWNJs tell us.

          The second point has to do with being contactable to get a job.

          Those are the only two to do with neo-liberalism.

          The third one has to do with being able to access the information needed to govern. Sure, a lot of people don’t use it for that but I’m also sure that that will change over time. It’s a large part of democracy.

          And the only thing that can be said about common sense that old saw Common sense isn’t. Most of what’s passed off as ‘common sense’ is simply wrong.

    • b waghorn 5.5

      Would you be glad to raise kids in a stable??

  6. ianmac 6

    “Governor Graeme Wheeler has today released proposed new urgent restrictions that will mean property investors across the country will need a deposit of at least 40 per cent….”
    But that won’t stop investors will it? The equity in existing houses become the deposit for the next.

  7. Ad 7

    A pretty thrilling account of how close the recent Turkish coup came to succeeding:


    As more of these accounts come out, it will help put aside silly conspiracy stories about how it was all just a giant stunt by Erdogan.

    • Paul 7.1

      Really well planned?
      Turkish officials would say that.
      Organising a coup at 9.30 p.m. isn’t the best planning I can think of.
      More and more people are questioning the reliability of the Guardian as a source after its pro-establishment line over Scotland, Brexit, Ukraine and Corbyn.

      I note that you love to close down debate and discussion on many issues by using the words “conspiracy theories’. Is that by design?

      Gwynne Dyer is an expert political commentator. He doesn’t buy the well planned argument.

      It wasn’t a very competent coup attempt. The first rule of coup-making is: arrest or kill the person you are trying to overthrow. The coup leaders should have been able to grab Erdogan, who was on holiday at the seaside resort of Marmaris, but they didn’t.
      They didn’t shut down the internet and social media either, so Erdogan was able to use his cellphone to get a message out on FaceTime, calling on his supporters to defy the soldiers on the streets of Istanbul and Ankara. They didn’t even shut down the broadcast media that sent Erdogan’s call out to the public.
      It was three hours before they occupied the offices of TRT, the state broadcaster, and they were chased out again by Erdogan less than an hour later. They didn’t ever try to shut down the private television networks, which have a much bigger audience.
      The second rule of coup-making is: act as if you mean it. This usually means that you have to be willing to kill people—but the colonels behind the coup (the generals were all vetted by Erdogan’s people) were reluctant to use large amounts of lethal force.

      I like Rachel Stewart’s take.
      ”I’m pretty convinced that Turkey’s “coup” was about as staged as Milli Vanilli’s singing.”


      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        Everyone has noticed how Erdogan already had purge lists of thousands of people drawn up and ready to go.

        Next to be gone is 7000 police officers. (And the police stayed loyal to Erdogan during the coup).

        One of the best theories I have seen is that what Ad references as a “well organised coup” was actually a parallel coup. Some military officials got wind that Erdogan was about to launch a massive purge which would catch thousands of them and other officials.

        So they quickly organised and launched a rapid, pre-emptive coup ahead of Erdogan.

        And failed.

        So instead of being removed from their offices, now they are going to be shot.

        (I think Erdogan will follow through with his threat to bring back civil capital punishment. Not that that’s an impediment to military tribunal capital punishment.)

    • Colonial Viper 7.2

      This “really well planned coup” let CNN Turkey stay on the air, and let Erdogan do a Facetime appeal on the channel to hundreds of thousands of supporters to come out on the streets.

      Then it appears that only a minority of military units took part in the coup, and most of them declined to use the force required to do their jobs. In fact, many coup soldiers looked bewildered and said that they had simply been told that they were on an exercise.

      And Erdogan’s personal jet kept its transponder turned on up in the air for over an hour, and it wasn’t shot down even though the coup had interceptors in the air!

      Really weird shit.

      • One Two 7.2.1

        Well planned as defined by ‘Turkish Officials’ not included on the pre coup ‘purge lists’

        “Thrilling account” is a term better used for a fictional movie production or bed time story.

        The Monty Python esque coup attempt by a military with a strong history of successful coups to its credit, doesn’t qualify as, ‘thrilling’

    • adam 7.3

      Ad, you do know Coup’s are by their very nature, are generally organised by a group of people, in secret. Or if you will, a secret group conspiring to overthrow a government?

      So by definition it is a conspiracy, and like most conspiracies, it takes a long time to unravel them. So at present, the case put forward by the guardian, is just another conspiracy theory along with the rest.

      All I know is the Kurds I know are freaking out. This is bad for them because Erdogan has reignited the civil war with them, he will use this as excuse to hurt the Kurds more. This is what we should be talking about. Not how a conspiracy has played out, because frankly, that is for historians.

  8. Ad 8

    Breaking news:

    New Zealand property investors will need a 40% deposit, according to new Reserve bank rules.


    Other home buyers will still need at least a 20% deposit.

    But this time all the rules apply nationwide.

    “A sharp correction in house prices is a key risk to the financial system, and there are clear signs that this risk is increasing across the country.”
    -Graeme Wheeler, Governor of the Reserve bank of New Zealand.

    Hopefully this has more effect than the last lot of measures.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Foreign Chinese cash buyers will be happy with these changes.

      • b waghorn 8.1.1

        thats racist dude

        • Colonial Viper

          It’s a pure economic analysis. Nothing racist about it. It takes local Kiwi competition out of the market and gives cash buyers like them a clear run.

        • Sabine

          nah its only racist when Labour says it. 🙂

      • adam 8.1.2

        Should you not change “Foreign Chinese cash buyers” to those cashed up the the People’s Liberation Army?

        OK not all, like those trying to get the hell out of Hong Kong, and Macau.

        • save nz

          CV is right. It is defiantly helping foreign investors and richer people a lot more than Kiwi Mums n Dads owning a 2nd property.

          Everything this government does seems to be geared to help non residents and those paying no taxes here rather than people who live here. It is uncanny.

  9. Draco T Bastard 10

    RSA Animate: Ha-Joon Chong

    Video, autoplays.

  10. Bearded Git 11

    Just reported on RNZ.

    The Treasury has heavily criticised the government’s drug policy. It said (paraphrasing) “that instead of spending $400m a year on trying (and failing) to enforce the illegality of using cannabis it should instead legalise it such that it would gain $150m from taxes on its use.”

    This is groundbreaking. Treasury, no less, are saying legalise cannabis. This will bring a gain of $550m to the public purse. Looks like a good policy option for Labour and Greens now that this has Treasury backing.

  11. Puckish Rogue 12


    NZ has its problems but still a lot better then Europe at the moment

  12. Muttonbird 13

    In the latest ‘major backdown’ by the government…


    McClay admitted he received new information, while speaking with media on a trade trip to Indonesia.

    “I’ve checked overnight and when I was in China I did receive some information from the embassy that an industry body made contact with a New Zealand company in China raising some concerns.

    McClay using the old ‘didn’t get the email’ defence when he mis-spoke before.

  13. Sabine 14

    serco…the gift that keeps on giving.

    and no we can’t expect the current National Party led government to do better cause free market, money needs to be made and surely Labour did it too at some stage over the last 100 years of its existence. so all is good in NZ.

    we now officially don’t give a shit anymore.


  14. Paul 15

    Michelle Boag on the Panel with no rebuttal from either Mora or Edwards.

    • Bearded Git 15.1

      +100…she was slagging off Mike Lee because he had an opinion on Auckland airport transport options. Apparently you have to agree with everything or resign. Complete bollocks. She has spent too much time talking to Key’s sheep in parliament….sorry “MP’s”.

      • Paul 15.1.1

        Then someone texted in and asked that she declare her interest in supporting Bill Ralston to council. And boy, did she go off.
        As usual, Mora and Edwards were utterly ineffective.

  15. save nz 16

    Commons votes for Trident renewal by majority of 355
    Over half Labour MPs but not Jeremy Corbyn back motion after Theresa May says she would order nuclear strike


  16. Penny Bright 17

    Yes – some of us ARE having an anti-TPPA protest against USA Vice-President Joe Biden.

    (It’s Our Future Auckland have called this protest.)

    WHEN: Wed 20 July 2016

    WHERE: Cnr George Bolt Memorial Drive / Tom Pearce Drive (in front of Z petrol station)
    Near Auckland airport.

    TIME: 3 – 5.30pm

    (It gets HEAPS of traffic!)

    Want to ‘stand up and be counted’?

    (You may need an umbrella 🙂

    Penny Bright
    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

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  • Over $1 million to help Tairāwhiti youth into employment
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  • Crown and Moriori sign a Deed of Settlement
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  • Budget 2020 date announced
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  • Prime Minister’s tribute to former Prime Minister Mike Moore
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