Open mike 19/08/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 19th, 2016 - 134 comments
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134 comments on “Open mike 19/08/2016”

  1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1

    The US Justice Department will phase out use of privately owned prisons, citing safety concerns.
    Contracts with 13 private prisons will be reviewed and and allowed to expire over the next five years.
    “They do not save substantially on costs and … they do not maintain the same level of safety and security,” Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates said explaining the decision.
    The majority of US prisoners are held in state-run prisons.
    On Wall Street, the stocks of private prison companies declined sharply after the news was announced.
    By Thursday afternoon, Corrections Corp stock had plunged by nearly 50%.
    An Inspector General’s report released this month found that private prisons saw higher rates of violent incidents and rule infractions in comparison with government-run institutions.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37124183

    • The Chairman 1.1

      In November 2009, an expanded panel of 9 judges of the Israeli Supreme Court ruled (in an eight to one decision) that privately run prisons are unconstitutional.

    • whispering kate 1.2

      As usual NZ is playing catch up with other nations who have tried and failed with turning state agencies into private ones. We obviously are too arrogant and think we can do it when others have failed. Ideology is failing us in every direction in this country from education to health and corrections.

    • Ad 1.3

      Big big call in the US.

      But has time run out on Obama to close Guantanamo?

  2. Rodel 2

    A snippet which offers hope. Nats should take note.

    ‘U.S. Justice Department says it will end use of private prisons
    The Justice Department plans to phase out its use of private prisons after they were determined to be less safe and less effective that government facilities, The Washington Post reports.’
    http://thehill.com/

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    This is a comment particularly for Anne; here is a recent video on how long term climate change is now affecting the specific day to day and week to week weather system behaviours that we are now seeing in the world.

  4. Jenny Kirk 4

    NZ Women at Rio : seems to me that we have quite a few women winning medals – has anyone done a count of how many medals the men have won, and how many the women have won ? Would be interested to know ……

  5. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5

    Coca-Cola’s second largest bottling plant in India has been shut down

    The bottling plant in Hapur has been under scrutiny by the National Green Tribunal India’s ‘Green Court ‘– since 2015, and a number of inspections by government regulators have found the plant to be flouting environmental laws in India, and also operating without valid licenses, or No Objection Certificate (NOC).

    http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/2988031/cocacolas_second_largest_bottling_plant_in_india_has_been_shut_down.html
    More good news. Time for action on ugly corporations which exploit and pollute this planet and its people!

    • weka 5.1

      The Indian govt seems to be doing some interesting things,

      Monsanto is losing millions on failed GM cotton. The company illegally pushed a form of Bt cotton into India and Africa more than a decade ago, but farmers are now pushing back by planting their own indigenous seed.

      Monsanto is accused of writing laws and then breaking them to enter the market in India, but after more than 300,000 farmer deaths between 1995 and 2013, many of them attributed to Monsanto, the company is finally paying for their misdeeds. The corporation’s greed is linked to farmer suicides throughout Maharashtra, considered the ‘Cotton Belt’ in India.

      The Indian government is now actively promoting the use of indigenous seed, and has called Monsanto out for profiteering illegally on Bt cotton seed.

      Monsanto has already lost nearly $75 million in royalties this year (5 billion rupees) due to the change in seed choice by farmers. Sales in India have fallen by 15 percent, and though this is a relatively small market share, it is still making a huge impact on the company’s bottom line.

      http://www.ecosnippets.com/environmental/farmers-in-india-rebel-cotton-seed/

      • Ad 5.1.1

        All Monsanto are good for now is selling themselves into corporate parts.

        They’ve been on the block for a while and vastly overestimating their price to suitors.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.2

        Very interesting as the US has been pressuring India to open its domestic market up to large US corporates more and more.

      • Whateva next? 5.1.3

        Very heartening after such brutal corporate control of India’s farmers

  6. Sanctuary 6

    A question from me after reading the Mother Jones story I linked to above:

    Why are prisons sex segregated? Spanish prisons allow conjugal visits every 4-8 weeks. They are experimenting with family cells to keep families together if both parents are in jail and they have children under three, Spanish prisons have separate mens and womens wings, but the inmates mix in work and sometimes even marry,

    Now, thinking about it, if a man is convicted of a domestic violence crime why do we send him to a all-male, hyper-aggressive environment? How will that challenge his attitudes towards woman? Surely, strictly supervised interaction with women in prison (for example, in anger management sessions wouldn’t it be handy to have a few women inmates there to describe how they feel when assaulted?) would be much better? Surely, allowing sexual activity via conjugal visits would have a major impact on sexual assault inside prisons?

    • save nz 6.1

      Good points Sanctuary. We need new thinking and ideas about social issues, and then pilot programs to see if they work.

      • Sanctuary 6.1.1

        My views on this are similar to posh, single sex private schools. Is sending your kids to an all white, decile 10, mono cultural, single sex school really the best way to prepare them for lives in a multi cultural society? Or is it just a way to try and preserve class based advantage for a clearly identifiable social minority? I am pretty sure it is for the latter. Personally, I would abolish all single sex and private schools completely and make it a requirement that schools reflect as accurately as possible the socioeconomic and ethnic mix of a 10km radius.

        And if I reason like that for schools, why then would I reason any differently about prisons?

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1

          Boys do better in single sex schools, so they should be kept, especially given how disadvantaged males are in the public education system today.

          • mpledger 6.1.1.1.1

            Girls schools emphasis seems to be at the 40th percentile. Boys schools emphasis seems to be at the 90th percentile (and sports stars).

            It means more girls pass, but boys fill the top spots.

            If your boy is top-notch academically send him to a boys schools, if he is top-notch at sport send him to a boys school, if he is neither send him coed.

          • Garibaldi 6.1.1.1.2

            Well CV , I finally have found something I disagree with you on(apart from Trump by a landslide – there just aren’t enough redneck white males to get him there).
            I think boys need the interaction with females to grow up as better balanced citizens.
            I have taught at both a boys and a coed and I know which I prefer. In an all boys school Sport is paramount and used as bribery.
            I think Sanctuary’s comments re schooling are spot on.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.2.1

              well, i started by saying Trump by landslide, I’ve ratcheted that back down to Trump by easy win 🙂

              Yes boys need interaction with females, thats what going to a coed for the final year is for 🙂

  7. Sabine 7

    The Emperor has no Balls

    Donald Trump Sculptures, real live and all are popping up all over the US.

    http://gothamist.com/2016/08/18/naked_donald_trump_statue.php#photo-1

    oh dear, someone please fetch me some pearls to clutch and a cup o tea 🙂

    • Rodel 7.1

      LUV IT LUVIT!!!

    • Te Reo Putake 7.2

      The parks department offer stiff opposition:

      “NYC Parks stands firmly against any unpermitted erection in city parks, no matter how small,” said Sam Biederman, a parks spokesman.

  8. vto 8

    The hypocrisy and vacuousness of the right wing National Party member mind is something to behold …….

    We have the steel suppliers who were all happy with the free market at play in the Chch rebuild when they made gold out of their steel through demand and supply driving prices from around $2-3 kg up to $7-8 kg.. oh yay they went, smiling all the way to the bank, driving around in new utes, buying new boats, aint it great this unfettered free market …
    … yet when supply from China drives those prices back down to where they used to be there is all manner of wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying to mummy in the government for some help..

    … pathetic

    Same with employers in the regions making their wares and voting for the free market and voting for the free market National Party ….
    … yet when they need a component for their business, namely labour, all semblance of the free market is abandoned for more crying and tears….. instead of paying more for what they need…

    … pathetic

    its called the free market business people, the free market. You voted for it. Man up and live with it, you are pathetic with your whingeing

  9. save nz 10

    Injured Aleppo boy in ambulance illustrates Syrian conflict

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/world/injured-aleppo-boy-in-ambulance-illustrates-syrian-conflict-2016081821?ref=newshubFB

    (Not sure if the world’s media is ready to share images of kids in war by US bomb strikes which are edited out of the world’s media).

  10. save nz 11

    message from Barry Coates

    “It makes no sense that the government is continuing to push the TPPA legislation through Parliament even though it would add huge costs from extending copyright from 50 to 70 years and strengthening patent rights. The benefits will go to big foreign corporations – New Zealand innovators and consumers will lose out.

    The research and evidence on TPPA is shoddy, with superficial analysis written or commissioned by MFAT to support their position. This contrasts with more thorough reports done in the US by the International Trade Commission that found virtually no economic benefit for the US, and a recent draft report by the Australian Productivity Commission that concluded the TPPA provisions would inhibit innovation and raise costs.

    In New Zealand, a series of expert peer-reviewed papers have raised serious questions about the TPPA, and highlighted the economic costs and problems such as restrictions on the government’s right to regulate (see https://itsourfuture.org.nz/tppa-research/).

    The TPPA is in big trouble in the US, and there is a huge majority of the public against it, as well as the two leading Presidential candidates. There is time for New Zealand to re-think its involvement in the TPPA and undertake proper research. The more we find out about this agreement, the more concerns that it raises. When we see the objective evidence, the government will have to agree with the majority of the public and reject the TPPA.

    Or if they don’t, the voters of New Zealand will have their chance at the next election to support political parties that reject the TPPA and similar agreements, and get rid of the provisions in exising treaties that allow foreign investors to sue our government.”

  11. RTM 12

    Today, nearly one hundred and fifty-three years after the bloodiest post-Treaty battle on the soil of these islands, the invaders are withdrawing, and Rangiriri pa is being returned to Maori: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/311348/rangiriri-pa-returned-after-1863-invasion

    What was the battle of Rangiriri like for the men who fought it? We can get one answer to this question but looking at the beautiful and terrible photographs taken by the man who won a VC at Rangiriri:
    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/going-to-war-with-william-temple.html

  12. b waghorn 13

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/north-island/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503932&objectid=11696970

    The rape and plunder goes on, good old free market in action

  13. Ad 14

    These are the full prepared remarks from Trump a couple of days ago. He was relentlessly on message, regretting his more offensive remarks, nailing his rationale hard:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-never-lie-227183

    Enjoy! He ain’t out out of this race.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      “How Bloomberg spun their own poll data to make Clinton seem inevitable”

      Clinton 6 points ahead of Trump said the Bloomberg headline.

      (Except when you look at the four way data between Clinton, Trump, the Libertarians and the Greens, Clinton was actually only 2 points ahead i.e. in a statistical tie with Trump).

      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-16/how-bloomberg-spun-its-own-poll-data-make-hillary-clinton-seem-inevitable

      • swordfish 14.1.1

        Yeah, that’s happened a number of times over the last week or two. Headlines based on the two-way rather than four-way data, thus exaggerating Clinton’s lead.

        Similar in the UK – in the last couple of days, there’s been some dodgy reporting of a BMG Poll on Corbyn vs Smith as Labour leader. Among people who voted Labour in 2015, Corbyn beats Smith marginally (by 4 points – 52% vs 48%). But among people currently intending to vote Labour at the next General Election, Corbyn wins by a massive 32 points (66% vs 34%).

        A number of UK media outlets (along with prominent poll analyst-twitters with strong anti-Corbyn tendencies) have focussed solely on the 52/48 split, strongly implying that these are the figures for current Labour supporters.

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1

          in the Bloomberg one they also had to throw in the “lean to” results from the don’t knows to give Clinton her 6 point lead.

          If Scott Adams is right at least some of those will have said Clinton because they didn’t want to admit to supporting Trump.

    • McFlock 14.2

      As prepared.
      How was his delivery?

      • Colonial Viper 14.2.1

        Compare the crowd size to Clinton’s campaign events.

        • McFlock 14.2.1.1

          didn’t we do the same comparison with Bernie’s crowds? How did that work out?

          • Colonial Viper 14.2.1.1.1

            Bernie lost, the Democrats stabbed him in the back

            • McFlock 14.2.1.1.1.1

              You mean he didn’t get enough delegates to win.

              The more Trump speaks, the more he becomes entertainment rather than presidential material.

              • Colonial Viper

                No, I mean Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the other leaders of the DNC stabbed Bernie in the back, and had to resign over it.

                • McFlock

                  Uh-huh.

                  How did their activities affect Sanders’ delegate votes?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Dunno but the DNC CEO, chair, communications director and CFO all resigned in disgrace over it, so they were all involved in screwing the scrum against Bernie.

                    • McFlock

                      well, bad-mouthing the fuck out of him in emails to each other. A bit like how that general lost his job after badmouthing the president when the embedded rolling stone journo was in the room.

                      Didn’t affect the number of votes Sanders got in the primaries, though.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      they organised against Sanders. You know, like using his religion against him.

                    • McFlock

                      But you don’t know if it’s even likely that this affected the primaries? Were there any indications of ballot-stuffing, or whatever?

                      How did they organise against him?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Oh I see McFlock. The DNC’s cheating doesn’t count as cheating unless it affected things on the ground?

                      Well, for starters it lends credence to Sanders supporters complaints that from the very start that voter registration and polling booth management was slanted against them.

                    • McFlock

                      You haven’t demonstrated any cheating. A lot of griping and unprofessional emails, but nothing that affected the election.

                      It doesn’t “lend credence” to anything, unless D W-S was personally handling voter registrations or managing a polling booth. Do the parties even have anything to do with polling booth management or voter registration? Because at least some seem to be run by state boards of elections.

              • Lanthanide

                Trump was entertainment during the primaries. Now he’s a very bad horror movie.

        • joe90 14.2.1.2

          Yuuge….

          Trump campaign has curtained off most of this large convention hall in Charlotte for this rally: pic.twitter.com/x7uuPl3icp— Jenna Johnson (@wpjenna) August 19, 2016

          • Colonial Viper 14.2.1.2.1

            Looked like a crowd of maybe 5,000 to me. How many at the Hillary campaign rally today?

            Oh yeah there wasn’t one.

            • te reo putake 14.2.1.2.1.1

              Hillary doesn’t really need to do another rally. She’s already won. If big numbers at rallies was the decider, Bernie Sanders would have won the Democrat nomination, because he sure packed ’em out. But, in the real world, it’s votes that count and most voters make their mind up via their favourite media, not down at the town hall. The big rallies to come will really be aimed at maxing out the win. That’s about Democrat senators, congressman and governors. The real victory will be winning back control of the house and senate and taking the governorships in states that haven’t been democrat in years. That’ll be Trump’s legacy; handing the Democrats near total control of the political apparatus.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’ll check back in with your personal fantasy world come November

              • Garibaldi

                trp – Hillary won because the Democratic Party shafted Bernie.

                • McFlock

                  How?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    From the Washington Post, about the top revelations from the DNC emails:

                    1) Targeting Sanders’s religion?

                    On May 5, DNC officials appeared to conspire to raise Sanders’s faith as an issue and press on whether he was an atheist — apparently in hopes of steering religious voters in Kentucky and West Virginia to Clinton. Sanders is Jewish but has previously indicated that he’s not religious.

                    2) Wasserman Schultz calls top Sanders aide a “damn liar”…

                    On May 17, after controversy erupted over the Nevada state Democratic convention and how fair the process was there, Wasserman Schultz herself took exception to Sanders campaign manager Jeff Weaver’s defense of his candidate’s supporters.

                    3) … and says Sanders has “no understanding” of the party

                    That wasn’t the only time Wasserman Schultz offered an unvarnished opinion about the Sanders operation. And in one late-April email, she even questioned Sanders’s connection to the party.

                    4) A Clinton lawyer gives DNC strategy advice on Sanders

                    When the Sanders campaign alleged that the Clinton campaign was improperly using its joint fundraising committee with the DNC to benefit itself, Clinton campaign lawyer Marc Elias offered the DNC guidance on how to respond.

                    5) Plotting a narrative about how Sanders’s campaign failed

                    On May 21, DNC national press secretary Mark Pautenbach suggested pushing a narrative that Sanders “never ever had his act together, that his campaign was a mess.”

                    After detailing several arguments that could be made to push that narrative, Paustenbach concludes: “It’s not a DNC conspiracy, it’s because they never had their act together.”

                    6) Mocking Sanders for his California debate push

                    One of the chief complaints from Sanders and his supporters was a lack of debates. They said the fact that there were so few was intended to help Clinton by reducing her opponents’ exposure and their chances to knock her down.

                    7) Wishing Sanders would just end it

                    Many of these emails came as it was clear Clinton was going to win — which makes the apparent favoritism perhaps less offensive (though Sanders supporters would certainly disagree).

                    But it’s also clear that there was plenty of cheerleading for the race to simply be over — for Sanders to throw in the towel so that Clinton could be named the presumptive nominee. The party, of course, was still supposed to be neutral even though the odds and delegate deficit for Sanders looked insurmountable.

                    8) Calling an alleged Sanders sympathizer a “Bernie bro”

                    The term “Bernie bro” — or “Berniebro,” depending on your style — over the course of the campaign became a kind of shorthand for the worst kind of Sanders supporter. These were the supporters who couldn’t be reasoned with and verbally assaulted opponents, sometimes in very nasty ways.

                    9) Criticizing Obama for lack of fundraising help — “That’s f—ing stupid”

                    While the Sanders emails have gained the most attention, some of the more interesting emails involve a peek behind to curtain of how party officials talk about fundraising and major donors — and even President Obama.

                    In one email on May 9, DNC mid-Atlantic and PAC finance director Alexandra Shapiro noted that Obama wouldn’t travel 20 minutes to help the party secure $350,000 in donations.

                    “He really won’t go up 20 minutes for $350k?” Shapiro wrote. “THAT’S f—ing stupid.”

                    10) 10) Flippant chatter about donors

                    In a May 16 exchange about where to seat a top Florida donor, Kaplan declared that “he doesn’t sit next to POTUS!” — referring to Obama.

                    “Bittel will be sitting in the sh—iest corner I can find,” responded Shapiro. She also referred to other donors as “clowns.”

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You missed the bit where the DNC forced people at gunpoint to vote for Hillary against their will. Bastards.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      TRP, I think people can read for themselves to see what the self proclaimed “neutral” DMC was all about, when it came to Clinton vs Sanders.

                      The pro status quo’ers backed Clinton the weaker, less popular, more right wing candidate.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      Funny list, none of which expplains why Sanders didn’t win the nomination. It does explain the resignations, though – especially ripping shit out of Obama. Very similar to McChrystal.

                      Itemised response below, but TL:DR – all can be answered with some combinations of “In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email?” and “Did it effect the primary?”

                      1) Targeting Sanders’s religion?

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      2) Wasserman Schultz calls top Sanders aide a “damn liar”…

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      3) … and says Sanders has “no understanding” of the party

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      4) A Clinton lawyer gives DNC strategy advice on Sanders

                      Did it effect the primary?

                      5) Plotting a narrative about how Sanders’s campaign failed

                      Did it effect the primary?

                      6) Mocking Sanders for his California debate push

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      7) Wishing Sanders would just end it

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      8) Calling an alleged Sanders sympathizer a “Bernie bro”

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email? Did it effect the primary?

                      9) Criticizing Obama for lack of fundraising help — “That’s f—ing stupid”

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email?

                      10) 10) Flippant chatter about donors

                      In public? Or, shock horror, did someone use an unprofessional tone in an internal email?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Um, if you win a two option democratic election, you are, by definition, the popular candidate. Sanders has got over it and showed that he understands the process and the real threat facing the people of the States (and the rest of us). You, on the other hand, not so much …

                      Repeating already forgotten attack lines doesn’t change the simple fact that Hillary Clinton won the nomination. More people voted for her than for her opponent. She campaigned and won. You’d better get used to that, because it’s going happen again in a couple of months.

                    • McFlock

                      less popular

                      Not according to the votes.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      No wonder the Clinton machine had to work so hard to exclude independent voters from their primaries.

                      Read and weep status quo supporting bros.

                      Right now the poll averages reported by both Real Clear Politics and the Huffington Post show Sanders with an average 11 percent lead over Trump, and Clinton ahead of Trump by a much narrower margin of 3 percent. The four latest polls that compare Sanders and Clinton all show Sanders ahead with margins of 12, 13, 13, and 4 percent.1 Clinton, in contrast, is ahead by 3, 2, and 6 points in three of the four polls and behind Trump by 3 points in the latest of the four; together these four polls produce an average Sanders lead of 10.5 points and a Clinton lead of 2 points.

                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerome-karabel/sanders-clinton-electability_b_10106256.html

                    • McFlock

                      How did they exclude independent voters?

                      Isn’t voter registration administered by the states, not the parties?

                    • cv why are you bringing up bernie – you support trump – are you really saying you’d have flip flopped between sanders and trump – that seems hardly credible.

            • Ad 14.2.1.2.1.2

              Fox and Trump campaign on the difference between a crowd of 5,000, and one person and their tv:

              http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/08/17/michael-cohen-donald-trump-poll-number-brianna-keilar-sot-tsr.cnn

          • joe90 14.2.1.2.2

            Them 3 percenters love some Donald.

            Spotted at Trump's rally in Charlotte, NC: Man holding a "Citizen's Rule Book" and an 8-pointed star w/ 'Muslim': pic.twitter.com/62AcuuFEji— Frank Thorp V (@frankthorp) August 19, 2016

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Rule_Book

  14. Muttonbird 15

    National voters now think they own the colour blue…

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/complaint-over-goffs-blue-billboards-2016081913

  15. The Chairman 16

    Media beat-up or was Andrew Little trying to highlight to voters that Labour can row in different directions all on its own?

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/where-does-labour-stand-on-decriminalising-cannabis-2016081116

    Thoughts?

    • Muttonbird 16.1

      First thing that springs to mind is why are you linking to a story over a week old?

      I think cannabis reform is inevitable and there is a huge appetite for more open access to medicinal cannabis right now.

      If anyone is having a bob each way it is of course John Key who intimated during the week that cops ‘kind of’ turn a blind eye to recreational possession already. He worries about sending the wrong message through decriminalisation but isn’t the slightest bit concerned about sending the wrong message by stating cops currently enforce the law (or not) as they see fit.

      I think we can all guess which type of person cops are likely to throw the book at…

      • weka 16.1.1

        If that’s the beat up from last week I understood perfectly clearly where Labour stand. They will move on medical csnnsbis as soon as in power and they will consider a referendum on general decriminalisation but it won’t be a priority eg not in their first hundred days. Don’t know why some people found that difficult to understand.

        • Muttonbird 16.1.1.1

          Agree. It’s a beat up by those interested in painting Andrew Little and Labour as indecisive and contradictory. See The Chairman.

          • The Chairman 16.1.1.1.1

            Don’t shoot the messenger. I merely put the question out there.

            Moreover, Labour don’t require me to paint them as indecisive and contradictory, they’ve done a pretty good job of giving voters that impression themselves. They often grandstand against things, only to later go on and support them, albeit, with a few minor changes.

            • Muttonbird 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Don’t tell me. You’ve always voted Labour. As did your father, and your father’s father. Your family has always been Labour, but you can’t bring yourself to vote for them now because Andrew Little doesn’t smile enough.

              • The Chairman

                One finds politicians often come and go. It’s the Party’s agenda that tends to remain. Unfortunately, Labour adopted a neo-liberal agenda long before Little came along and have yet to fully let go.

                Therefore, it would be fair to say Labour parted with me. Nevertheless, still hoping they’ll find their Corbyn moment.

                • weka

                  There is no Corbyn in the NZ Labour Party. Not point in waiting for something that is literally not possible.

                  • The Chairman

                    While there is no Corbyn in the NZ Labour Party, it doesn’t necessarily mean a Corbyn moment will never develop.

                    Labour being center left robs the party of that crucial point of difference (not merely fluffing around the edges as they do) while allowing National far greater opportunity to copy policy.

                    Moreover, it’s helping shift the whole political spectrum to the state now that the Greens are considered by a number to be far left, while reaffirming to voters there is no real alternative but to fluff around the edges. Helping to strengthen and cement in the neo-liberal view.

                    Additionally, this has disappointed and disenfranchised a number of voters, giving them the impression little changes, there is no brighter future regardless who one votes for. Thus. they no longer partake.

                    Bringing into question your assertion that we are better served at this point by letting Labour be centre left.

                    I’m not calling for extreme leftism. But Labour requires to show more of a point of difference. As they did with Kiwibuild, which was widely welcomed by voters.

                    This highlights voters are open to a more hands on Government where they feel the market is lacking (or, as the cannabis poll highlights, laws are deemed heavy handed and outdated).

                • Muttonbird

                  I don’t know where you or CV are coming from on this.

                  While there are some areas where Labour today finds it important to meet a changed world at an appropriate junction, from what I understand the very core Labour values of the past around housing as a right and not a privilege, strong rights and representation for workers, and educational investment in the future for all Kiwis have not been a stronger priority in recent times than under the current Andrew Little lead Labour party.

                  I think there is a fair amount of Corbyn in Little and despite what the conservative media and blogosphere might have you believe, Little is very consistent on these things mentioned above.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    You can tell that there is less Corbyn rather than more Corbyn in Little simply because Labour’s right wing tolerate Little.

                    Whereas UK Labour’s right wing couldn’t tolerate a self declared socialist like Corbyn.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Well, happy to see you recognise at least some true socialist values in Little even if weka doesn’t.

                    • “Labour’s right wing tolerate Little” lol I think you have been out of the loop too long cv – what a rubbish line you’ve used.

                    • weka

                      I see socialist values in Little. I just don’t think he is a Corbyn. He has his own attributes though and I think we are better served at this poin by letting Labour be centre left (hopefully moving left), rather than expecting people to be who and what they are not. You can’t manufacture a Corbyn, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other good ways to be.

                  • Jenny Kirk

                    +100% Muttonbird

                  • The Chairman

                    “While there are some areas where Labour today finds it important to meet a changed world at an appropriate junction, from what I understand the very core Labour values of the past around housing as a right and not a privilege, strong rights and representation for workers, and educational investment in the future for all Kiwis have not been a stronger priority in recent times than under the current Andrew Little lead Labour party.”

                    Well said. However, I somewhat disagree.

                    While it is important to meet a changed world at an appropriate junction, Labour have yet to identify that appropriate junction which also brings a significant number of voters along.

                    It’s good Labour is trying to improve rights and representation for workers but their educational investment falls short. As with their housing policy, it doesn’t go far enough mitigating offshore demand.

                    So while these may have not been a stronger priority in recent times than under the current Andrew Little lead Labour party, there is clearly more work to be done.

          • Rodel 16.1.1.1.2

            Andrew Little -Qualified Lawyer, -Union president- Labour. Got my vote against I’m relaxed … John -‘no but what I can say’ boy.
            It’s interesting how the Nat trolls persist in using multiple questions and repetitive question marks. That’s Amway 101 strategy. (He who asks the questions controls the conversation). Zzzzz

        • The Chairman 16.1.1.2

          Weka, do you believe if Labour were to make it (a referendum) a priority (sometime within the first term) it will harm them or improve their support?

          • weka 16.1.1.2.1

            I think it would depend on how they were doing with everything else. Lots of NZers support decriminalisation, but would not be too happy about it being prioritised over other things that are more important. I think the medical cannabis issue is more important and should be dealt with separately. I also think that the L/G govt will need to coax NZ left again not go hard out. Then there is the Peters issue.

            btw Little didn’t say what a priority meant for Labour. The example he gave was not in the first hundred days. So you calling the first term a priority is about you not Labour. Just so we are clear.

            • The Chairman 16.1.1.2.1.1

              “I think it would depend on how they were doing with everything else. Lots of NZers support decriminalisation, but would not be too happy about it being prioritised over other things that are more important.”

              Hence, to be clear, my suggesting within the first term.

              Moreover, surely Labour are capable of doing more than one thing at a time?

              Coaxing NZ left again opens Labour up to falling short and looking indecisive. Often resulting in disappointing both the right and left.

              • Colonial Viper

                Labour is happy to lead in a “priority” area like gay marriage, but not on a non-priority area like cannabis decriminalisation.

                • Equal rights based on humanity not sexual orientation and the right to take natural substances that aren’t going to get you sent to jail – hmmm both rights to fight for imo and I don’t really see the binary of one verses the other. Your pettiness and privilege and ihatelabour colours are showing again cv and it ain’t pretty.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    as I pointed out Marty Mars Labour was quite happy to lead the charge for gay marriage but not in decriminalising cannabis. Because not as important.

                    • McFlock

                      Labour was quite happy to lead the charge for gay marriage

                      Actually it was a private member’s bill that received cross-party support. It wasn’t exactly Labour policy. Nor were civil unions, although they were ministerial decisions. Helen Clark was about as committed to “gay marriage” as Litte is for marijuana legalisation.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yeah but in reality all the Labour MPs speeches on the night the Bill passed into law were so thoroughly triumphant and righteous.

                    • McFlock

                      Because it was the correct thing to do. And I’m sure the Greens, and even half of the nats, were pretty happy about it. They also voted for it. Hell, the most famous speech in support of it was an otherwise unremarkable nat talking about big gay rainbows.

                      I also liked how you could only respond to facts with a tone argument. Very illuminating.

            • Jenny Kirk 16.1.1.2.1.2

              Little’s and Labour’s priorities have been clearly spelt out several times, Weka. They are (not necessarily in this order) housing, education, good public health, jobs, and being fair to people (not just the 1%) .

      • The Chairman 16.1.2

        “First thing that springs to mind is why are you linking to a story over a week old?”

        Merely catching up with some older news.

        Yes, there is a huge appetite for more open access to medicinal cannabis right now. Moreover, overwhelming support for a law change around recreational use/possession.

        Unfortunately, Little personally doesn’t support a law change. However, he is open to a referendum, but doesn’t believe it’s a priority.

        Considering how poorly Labour is polling while keeping in mind the strong support in the poll for a cannabis law change, perhaps Little should reconsider making it a priority?

        • Te Reo Putake 16.1.2.1

          Concern troll is concerned.

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.2

          You may have noticed The Chairman that Labour does not have well developed listening skills.

          • Te Reo Putake 16.1.2.2.1

            I’m not the Labour Party, CV. Remember Bill’s rule about telling porkies about authors. Six weeks off, as I recall.

            • weka 16.1.2.2.1.1

              I think he was referring to something in the previous comment that demonstrated Labour don’t listen (his interpretation). Not aimed at you, and the comment was a reply to yours.

              Unfortunately, Little personally doesn’t support a law change. However, he is open to a referendum, but doesn’t believe it’s a priority.

              Considering how poorly Labour is polling while keeping in mind the strong support in the poll for a cannabis law change, perhaps Little should reconsider making it a priority?

              • Te Reo Putake

                Fair call, weka, benefit of the doubt and all that.

                • weka

                  I think it was the threading that made it a bit clearer for me.

                • Colonial Viper

                  this ain’t your post TRP, and if you want authors treated with respect you can always try and show us how by example why don’t you.

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    I’m pretty sure I do show respect, where it’s deserved. However, woman hating, lefty baiting, ableist, conservative misanthropes get very little respect from me at all. Get used to it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I’ve dealt with plenty of jumped up authoritarians before TRP. Join the list.

                    • Yes, dear. Care to remind us again of the mortal blows you struck against jumped up authoritarian Clare Curran?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Curran’s majority will be under 3,000 next year; she’s totally trashed the almost 11,000 electorate majority that Benson Pope built up.

                    • Ah, well. It’s nice that you acknowledge she’s a winner, CV.

                      Speaking of jumped up authoritarians, hows Donald Trump going? I see he’s lost yet another leader from his team this morning. Maybe you should offer to take Paul Manafort’s place? You’re definitely his kinda guy (see list above).

            • Bill 16.1.2.2.1.2

              You telling porkies about some rule I’ve apparently either laid down or adhere to there trp?

              tsk-tsk.

              Mind you, thanks to the torturous catch 22 that your assertion spawns, you won’t actually have to be self banning for six weeks in the interests of consistency or whatever….I mean, that would’ve been quite a thing, aye? 😉

              • That is a good recursive one Bill nice

                • adam

                  Boy you dribble out incoherently some days marty mars. And boy am I over you having a go at Colonial Viper.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Bill, it’s your ruling. Peter Swift a few weeks ago. Look it up if it’s slipped your mind.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Are you going to ban yourself now TRP for misrepresenting Bill’s ruling?

                  Or is it different rules for yourself, than for everyone else?

                  • It’s Bill’s ruling. Lie about an author, get banned. It seems perfectly sensible to me and I’m happy to follow the path he has laid down.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Then feel free to ban yourself for calling me misogynist, ableist, and those other stupid sneers you spout.

                    • The truth is the best defence, CV. I’ve never described your unpleasant traits inaccurately. They’re your comments, your opinions. If you don’t like being identified as a misogynist or ableist etc. don’t write the comments that show you to be those things.

                      Easy, eh?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      OK I get it, your sneering bullshit about another author is the unvarnished honest truth whereas my bullshit about you are merely lies.

                      Whateva you say, you like being the boss.

                    • No, clearly, you don’t get it. CV. You comment like an unrestrained arse and don’t like being called on it. Your expressed opinions are often deeply offensive to women, the old, unionists, the left and most recently, those you consider to be physically unfit to contribute to society in the way they choose. You don’t get to have it both ways. Express your hate filled opinions freely and get called on it from time to time or moderate your language so it’s not quite so obvious that you are a misanthrope.

                      You’ll have spotted that plenty of other righties can comment here without being deliberately offensive. Perhaps you can learn from them?

                • Bill

                  I made a decision. A decision is not a rule. eg – today I decided to put on red socks. That doesn’t mean a rule has been passed or laid down to the effect that red socks must be worn.

                  You’re behaving like a school yard bully – making shit up with the sole intention of abusing people.

                  It’s really fucking boring and unpleasant trp – one of the worst types of trolling.

                  • Fair call, Bill. Apologies for getting the terminology wrong. It’s a decision, not a ruling. I respect your decision and will build on the precedent it sets where needed.

          • The Chairman 16.1.2.2.2

            Some in Labour and a number of their cheerleaders often don’t like having their position questioned or critiqued. Thus, regularly pull out the old right wing troll line instead of genuinely taking it on board.

            • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.2.2.1

              The guts of their behaviour is that they are so internally certain they both know more and know better than everyone else. Pretty arrogant for a declining party on track to come in somewhere around the 25% mark.

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