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Open mike 20/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 20th, 2019 - 335 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

335 comments on “Open mike 20/03/2019”

  1. Ad 1

    I’m really liking the tone this Prime Minister is setting.
    She’s enabling us to breathe before the policy and instrumental responses hit.
    Smart on a lot of levels.

    • Honestly she is a gift at this time. Mind you, she has a wise and solid back up in the Deputy PM as well. NZ couldn’t ask for a better combination.

      And sadly , if the corrupt and incompetent ChiNational party were still in power with either the Double Dipper or Hairpuller we would be up shit creek without a paddle. It would have been a colossal political shitstorm.

      We have been blessed in the nick of time.

      So lets wish / pray for Winston Peters success and safety as he travels first to Indonesia and Turkey to undertake some heavy lifting and statesmanship.

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      A little breather then strike while the iron is hot on gun reform. The pro gunners are gathering stem already and will be at full speed in a matter of weeks ,their garbage is already popping up on the fb feeds.

    • A 1.3

      Yeah, she’s something special. Feeling leadership vicariously (?!) is a strange and new thing but how I’d describe it.

    • patricia bremner 1.4

      Jacinda Ardern has depth of character, an ability to see a global view and the intelligence to choose what matters most from what she sees and knows. The final quality is obvious sincerity and strength.

      How fortunate is New Zealand for angry voices across the sea seek to use this sad event in their own way, And our PM has created a climate where we are able to express our views, think and reflect on necessary change. But best of all she has denied the killer his glory. Jacinda has chosen to leave him nameless and has put the families and victims front and centre.

      Meanwhile Winston Peters needs all his skill and diplomacy to inform the Muslim people in the countries he is visiting of our Prime Minister’s actions, the grief we feel, and the active listening we are doing to begin a more caring inclusive society. He will tell of law changes and empowerment and a more active surveillance of the White Supremacist groups and Individuals. He will convey that New Zealand intends to do everything in our power to defeat the White Supremacist ideas and dangerous fundamentalism.

      Thankfully we have two skilled clever people at the helm who are coping with care and grace, and a united Coalition making us feel comforted and sure of how to move forward with Aroha in this terrible time.

  2. WeTheBleeple 2

    NZH still printing Bendon Carrot’s fake name. We’ve got to name a spade a spade. 😀

    Bendon Carrot was a repressed transexual dwarf incensed at the rejection of his sexual advances toward an American Exchange Student, Deshawn Darnell Cosby. Deshawn states he was ‘never into dwarves’ and that ‘Carrot is delusional to think he’d ever be getting some’.

    Due to his requested anonymity we phoned Bendon in a phone booth but unfortunately he couldn’t reach the reciever. We think it was this, and not the reasons outlined in his book of ‘Poems for Deshawn’ (heartache, loneliness) he sent to various media outlets. that kicked him off. To quote from his seventeen page epic ‘I can’t get on any of the rides’

    It’s hard being short
    Why are you so short
    with me

    Bendon was captured during a public masturbation spree he live streamed to Facebook, an online exhibitionist and voyeurs community posing as a social hub. While lawmakers haven’t tore Facebook a new one yet it is hoped customers and advertisers will abandon them for the truly shitty company they are.

    Bendon was charged with public masturbation and objectionable materials, plus being too short to drive. When appearing in the dock Carrot was draped in a white chiffon half dress he’d designed himself and made the sign of the tugger, a 4chan identity symbol depicting an incel lifestyle.

    • Sabine 2.1

      is that supposed to be humor?

      and please leave transexuals, little people, sexual issues, masturbation etc out of it. Cause he was a white power, white supremacist believer that killed 50 people and injured an equal number who for the rest of their lives will have to live with their injuries and loss.

      You don’t want to name him? Cool, call him Nazi, terrorist, murderer, killer, dipshit, shitheel, sheisskerl, dreckskerl, ordure, etc etc, but don’t do what you just did cause it is wrong.

      • RedLogix 2.1.1

        For once I absolutely agree with you Sabine.

        • WeTheBleeple 2.1.1.1

          I’m sorry I upset it was not the intention it was thoughtless not to preface my intent. I will not promote this muppets belief systems they are garbage everything he says and does is deliberate poison you can scream nazi threat all you like but in my opinion it play right into his hands.

          Yes we should stamp out this rubbish. Don’t feed the fools.

          My humor is always rather dark. Guess it’s too soon. Turning him into a joke may be effective, but that’s only my opinion.

          • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1

            It’s OK. I figured that … dark humour has a real place in dark times. But as with all humour, timing is everything.

          • Sabine 2.1.1.1.2

            it was not humor, it was using and to an extend abusing groups of people who are already having issues in our society do to . Size and hight of physical growth – little people, and gender – trans, and sexual activity – masturbation.

            that is not humor, that is just wrong.

            As for humor, there is no humor in this whole sad affair.

            You can make your points without having to resort to stereotyping a white supremacist with issues he did not have. He was of average height, we all masturbate – sometimes even when not alone and in public, and he did not identify as trans.

            It is simple, name him, shame him and forever associate him with the deed that carries his name. Forever people shall whisper his name in the dark, refusing him shelter, friendship, love, and a home. for he si nothing more then a deplorable, a racist, a murderer, a white power fuckwit, a member of the fearful white minority.

            • WeTheBleeple 2.1.1.1.2.1

              You seem to me a particularly humorless person.

              “Name him, shame him”

              And think you know better than our superstar PM.

              I’m sorry you are so angry. I did take on board some of your feedback.

              You can keep the rest.

              • Sabine

                disclaimer,

                i am german, i don’t do humor. Sorry. Especially not humor that is based on the denigration of people that are already having a hard time simply for being whom they are.

                If that is humor, i am very proud to be a humorless person. thanks for the compliment.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  “i am german, i don’t do humor”

                  I know. I’ve already stated I got arrested trying to smuggle comedy into Germany.

            • KJT 2.1.1.1.2.2

              Thanks Sabine.

      • I feel love 2.1.2

        Thanks Sabine.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.3

        WTB seems to have a bee in his bonnet re: denying the terrorist its craved fame.

        Perhaps he should explain, sans the weak attempts at humour, sarcasm and irony, exactly why he thinks that not-naming is wrong?

        • RedLogix 2.1.3.1

          Well it does smack of a Harry Potter “he who shall not be named” theme. I can respect Adern’s motives here, not to amplify his notoriety more than we have to; yet in some sense it’s a forlorn hope.

          Ultimately we cannot be protected from his evil; the only way to defeat it to confront it and understand what it means.

        • Gabby 2.1.3.2

          If shatpant craves fame it wouldn’t be unreasonable to try and thwart him would it rosy?

        • greywarshark 2.1.3.3

          Rosemary WtB is attempting to go into thinking territory that’s beyond the scope of some people here who just roam along in an iteration of irritating idiocies. He’s got lots of insights that he works through. So you could help round those out when you think fit rather than just noticing holes in the fabric.

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.3.3.1

            “So you could help round those out when you think fit rather than just noticing holes in the fabric.”

            Mea culpa Greywarshark, and many thanks for the advice. Off for some much deserved flagellation.

            • greywarshark 2.1.3.3.1.1

              Ooh er. I think that WtBs answer to me says it all about how we like your comments. So let’s be kind to each other and ourselves – no flagellation. I think a cup of tea; will you join me for English Breakfast or Mi Chai?

    • RedLogix 2.2

      a 4chan identity symbol depicting an incel lifestyle.

      Sneer all you like. My younger brother has both severe hearing and sight handicaps and while he’s intelligent, sociable and not unattractive to look at … guess how the opposite sex have treated him all his life. It’s been slowly heartbreaking to watch, and there was never anything I could do to help.

      And then by synchronicity this story appeared this morning:

      https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/i-joined-an-incel-group-and-what-i-found-was-surprising/news-story/9fd5647427e3e1750468dd39ed2bebe3

      • Sabine 2.2.1

        and you will have the same for women. Cause believe me, women too can not get laid.

        we humans don’t owe sex to anyone. At best, we are lucky and find someone with whom it works.

        But sex is owed to no one.

        And there is being a state of not getting laid, and then there is the women hate on 4 chan and the likes. And the killer that target women because they don’t deserve to live cause they don’t fuck us/me/him.

        the whole above creed was just shameful.

        I do hope that your brother will find someone not just for sex, but for love, care, and lifelong commitment.

        • RedLogix 2.2.1.1

          If you read the linked article but for love, care, and lifelong commitment. is indeed exactly what they so deeply miss. Our collective sneering and contempt only multiplies their ongoing hurt.

          Still I’m reluctant to drag these very unfortunate people into this hot mess, for the most part they do not deserve it.

          What all of these mass shooters share in common, regardless of the cause they have embraced, is their relative social isolation. This does not mean all loners are mass murderers, but it clearly is a risk factor.

          They are typically a difficult group to reach out to, but we do not help in the slightest when we actively intensify their lifelong sense of rejection … at the very deepest level. As the author above says:

          I joined the group thinking I would hate the incels but was surprised to find my overwhelming feeling was pity. All we have done is show them hate, so it’s all they know. Maybe we should show them love. I don’t think they’ve ever seen it before.

          • Anne 2.2.1.1.1

            Thanks Redlogix.

            It’s a side of the story the media nor the government will choose to publicly discuss. As soon as I heard the perpetrator was very short in stature I knew it was a significant pointer to his chosen pathway.

            There are many reasons why some people are isolated from the rest of society, and more often than not they are based on wrong perceptions. Some of the ‘victims’ (for want of a better word) choose extreme life choices to compensate for the lack of respect, friendship and yes… love that so many have been denied by the rest of society.

            In short, society as a whole is to blame for the rise of extremism both on the Right and the Left of the spectrum.

            • RedLogix 2.2.1.1.1.1

              I don’t know that blame is the best way to think about it. The ground has undoubtedly shifted under us all, and it’s going to take time to rebalance.

              There are reasons why extremism exists; it’s where people go when they sense no-one is listening to them and the middle offers no hope for change. Or at least, a change they can hope to implement.

              And in the middle we became a bit lazy and complacent, naive even. We imagined our decades of post-WW2 peace and our geography meant there was a magic force-field bubble around us, that we might hop on planes and visit the big wide world, but that it might somehow neglect to visit us.

              Well that has all changed. And after the mourning, the anger and the recriminations, there will come the quiet work of finding our feet again.

              • Anne

                I think we are on the same wave-length Redlogix, just expressing it in slightly different ways.

                Perhaps blame is not the right word to use in the context of what has happened, but complacency – ranging from the top of the pyramid down to the mass of ordinary citizens at the bottom – has played a role in allowing these extremist groups to multiply among us. And when I say ‘us’ I include Australia because we are inextricably linked to one another.

                We’ve only got to reflect on some of the rhetoric seen on this site from time to time to appreciate there are people whose viewpoints have, for whatever reason, become what most would consider beyond rational. That is not (I hasten to say) to suggest any of them would turn to violence to make their point, but there had to be a reason for them turning to such ‘beyond the pale’ views in the first place.

                As a result of the Cold War years, I think our security agencies and the police have been inclined to pour more resources into weeding out the extremists on the Left at the expense of those on the Right. That has apparently changed in recent times but it was far too late.

          • Sabine 2.2.1.1.2

            but what came first RL, the hate of the incels for women who wont have sex with them, wont have their children, wont make their sandwiches, or the hate of others once some of these incels started shooting up women?

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455

            https://www.vox.com/world/2018/4/25/17277496/incel-toronto-attack-alek-minassian

            https://www.vox.com/2014/5/29/5754786/the-santa-barbara-shootings-and-angry-white-men

            and these are just a few.

            Really what i would like to know is why these guys believe in the first place that women ‘owe’ them sex. that they get to decide that a women – oh and not any women, cause yes, hadicapped women, not so pretty women also have issues with getting laid – but the nice looking ones, the ones that all the others want too. It might be that they grew up in a world were women are considered to be ‘helpmeet’ at best, property at worst. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/help-meet/
            Is it that they were raised in the believe that men are above women and children and thus have no standing in the world if they don’t have a women and children? https://iblp.org/questions/what-umbrella-protection

            I have a friend who is an incel. She has been one for over 13 years now. Reason? Her body has issues with hormonal birth control and she is hyper fertile. As she says jokingly and sadly ‘ Two go to bed, three wake up’. She can’t be bothered anymore begging men to use condoms as birth control, they dont like it because it does not feel right 🙂 – cause feeling is more important then unplanned pregnancies, so essentially she has been single raising her children from her previous relationship alone and is preventing unwanted pregnancies by simply not having sex and thus no relationships. Should she be mean, violent, aggressive, whinging and crying how men ‘owe’ her? Actually, funnily enough, she is doing what the ‘pro-lifers and forced – birthers demand, abstinence. She ain’t going around killing men cause she can’t get laid.
            Incel however have done that to women, and other incels have cheered them on. Loneliness and ‘otherism’ is not a reason for violence. There are a lot of people on this planet that are lonely and sexless, and yet they don’t drive on misogyny, on violence and abstract notions of entitlement.

            So no i have no pity with them, first the question should be asked, why on earth can’t you get laid? And maybe the fault is not with the women who don’t just want to fuck for fucking sakes, but maybe the fault is with the bloke and his ideas about women, womens rights, and life as a couple.

            • vto 2.2.1.1.2.1

              “So no i have no pity with them, ”

              That about sums it all up for you doesn’t it. Not sure why you bothered with all the rest.

            • RedLogix 2.2.1.1.2.2

              All that makes sense from a woman’s perspective I would think. However I’m not inclined to divert further onto this topic at this time.

              As you said, you have no pity and that is that.

              • Sabine

                Men are afraid that women laugh at them
                women are afraid that men kill them.

                So you have pity with them, while i and others are afraid of our life.

                that is the difference between living life as a men and as a women.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Men are afraid of men too

                  Nobody should feel like a perpetual target, it absolutely sucks.

                  • Sabine

                    yes, all lives matter.

                    i shall never forget that i as a women can never advance the cause of women without mentioning men and how they too suffer at the hand of men i n system designed for men by men run by men.

                    thanks for reminding me.

        • vto 2.2.1.2

          “But sex is owed to no one”

          Of course, sex is owed to no one. But that is an odd expression, because the follow-on is that “nobody owes anybody anything” and I dont know if that is the case. I do think we have obligations to our fellow humans..

          .. but quite where those lines are drawn is always the difficulty

          edit: in clarification – I dont think a person is obligated to have sex with another, but there is certainly an obligation on people and society to attend to these issues…. in some way somehow. How would this one be dealt with? Probably similarly to that of the mosque massacres – with love and consideration

          • Gabby 2.2.1.2.1

            Sex isn’t everything veetee, contrary to the assertions of the advertising world, maybe that’s the message your obligation compels you to propagate..

          • Sabine 2.2.1.2.2

            considering your comments yesterday in regards to my person and my behind, i think you should simply ignore my comments.

            I don’t think you add anything to any conversation about much, especially sex.

            • vto 2.2.1.2.2.1

              those comments were defence in response to your aggressiveness. You called them “sexual harassment” but given your gender is unknown I am not sure how that can be. All humans have “butts” and “dearie” is neutral. That exchange reflects how you see the world, not how the world is.

              If you don’t wish such a response then you need to dial back on the personal attack. Though I suspect that is no possible, as pretty much all of your posts say the same thing, with the same sort of attitude.

              • Sabine

                the comment were sexual harrasment.

                bye.

                • vto

                  No they were not, that is just how you see the world

                  • Sabine

                    No its not how i see live, these are your words and at the very least you should own your insults when you type them.

                    After all, you took the time out to type that shit. Own it.

                    • vto

                      You act as a victim Sabine. Perhaps you are. Either way, you are excessively aggressive – especially when you think a commenter is white and male, then the assumptions fly left right and centre mixed up with all sorts of aggro.

                      I have no problems with aggressive people like you – just bounce it straight back and stand up to it. I won’t let a bully be a bully, bully.

          • mikesh 2.2.1.2.3

            One may as well say that food and water are owed to no-one.

      • vto 2.2.2

        The internet has allowed all people with issues to congregate. Whereas previously they will have been contained in their own world with little idea of others with similar problems, now they can all link up and make noise about their situation.

        This is a good example.

        The issue for the wider world is how to deal with all of these issues, which have always existed but just not in the public realm to this extent. Now the wider world is more aware.

        The wider world is confronting multiple larger issues today because of this, and how they are attended to is the question for us all ……..

        • WeTheBleeple 2.2.2.1

          To me the issue begins when specific circles fail to get feedback from the wider community. At first people join social media and there is perhaps a whole lot of circles – a complex Venn diagram. There are opinions outside of their own, there is feedback that is not positive.

          Positive feedback breaks shit a system becomes unmanageable or burns itself out of resources. Negative feedback keeps it in check.

          Society needs both or look out.

          With only the circle giving feedback, you’re right, and then right again, and then empowered with your mandate, and it can turn into garbage fast.

          An incel group is the wrong place to solve issues of not getting laid. An incel group embedded in a wider community structure, perhaps. depends what that community is. Nazis and hackers, maybe not good.

          • RedLogix 2.2.2.1.1

            Peterson has a good one liner that’s pertinent here … “humans outsource their mental health”.

            In other words we’re not only a social creature from an economic and material perspective, we actually need the interaction with other humans to stay ‘sane’. People who isolate themselves for one reason or another, are a clear and obvious risk factor for our Friday madness.

            In that sense having ‘incels’ able to connect on the internet is probably a good thing. All their hurt and resentment will spill out, and it won’t be pretty to watch. But while their words may be ugly, I strongly suspect the social interaction will reduce the likelihood they will turn those words into action.

            Or in a word, the venting likely does more good than harm.

            • Sabine 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Well, men can then go and tell these guys why women don’t owe them sex, children or sandwiches.

        • greywarshark 2.2.2.2

          Your considering, questing response vto is what we all need to do. Of course not everyone has reached a space where they can condemn the behaviour and still have time to look for the good, wondering whether something can be done to ‘exalt’ the soul in these people instead of us and their suffering from its expiry.

      • WeTheBleeple 2.2.3

        I thought 4chan in the same sentence as incel was descriptive enough to imply the type of incel activity I’m getting at, as Sabine describes below:

        “there is the women hate on 4 chan and the likes. And the killer that target women because they don’t deserve to live cause they don’t fuck us/me/him.”

        And it’s all good GWS, I appreciate the kind words. I know Rosemary has a good heart and mind – so she can tell me off anytime.

        I talk about feedback a bit lately. It’s an important thing, we have thoughts, but are they right, putting them out there sometimes we find we are idiots.

        😀

        The danger of social media is the groups that close ranks and refuse feedback. This is a hallmark of extremism.

        • greywarshark 2.2.3.1

          That is the thing, we often are not idiots but we do find when we put them out there that there are better, wider, different ways of thinking about the matter.
          And we are good talking, opening up our ideas for discussion where we can, because some people are so fixed or gutless they don’t do that – ever. Then there can be no change, learning or understanding. Now and then I jump in with irritation. Fair enough, but I may irritate someone else. I do think about what people say though before I dismiss it!

          Now you can help me WtB. If you wish to. On last Sunday’s How to Get There I was talking about firebreaks. If you get time I’d like your opinion and am thinking if I find out anything that might add to the basic stuff going round, that I’ll try to pass it on where it can be disseminated and probably do some good.

          • WeTheBleeple 2.2.3.1.1

            I’ll take a look. I don’t want to post up fire advice till I get more time with firemen, fire ecologists…

            Certainly on my mind to put something useful together.

          • Sabine 2.2.3.1.2

            if you want opinion on fire breaks call the local vollies. They will tell you all you need to know.

            I don’t think consulting non professionals is gonna help you a lot.

    • WeTheBleeple 2.3

      I guess I should explain my motives for the above wierdness.

      It’s readily apparent the vertically challenged dickhead operates on a need for notoriety/fame and to spread hate in the world. We’ve already seen Pavlovian responses from so called leaders.

      On the chan boards this serial masturbator hangs out in – they like to disseminate false narratives. The viewing of a gullible public’s dissemination of said false narratives really gets their incel circle jerk heated up.

      What I propose, other than ghosting this three foot tick, is to destroy any semblance of the narrative he’s attempted to disseminate. His history, rantings, philosophy, turn it all into ridiculous mishmash parodies and memes. Drown his story in shit.

      Ironically, a ridiculous mishmash parody of garbage is the belief system of the twelve inch tantrum.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1

        Just for you WTB

        • WeTheBleeple 2.3.1.1

          LOL.

          It struck me as I listened to this that, despite loving song lyrics (modern day poetry a lot of it), there’s also so many songs I’ve sung along to without even noticing what I’m singing.

          “My motivation is to change the course of Western music” – Randy Newman

          What was he like?

          PS I’m thinking I might need to be more creative in my descriptors for the half-hobbit as people are gonna be extra testy for a while.

          Hydrated gremlim…

          Hobknoblin

          Gnominus

  3. Can I just re-post the wise words of Wild Katipo from Daily Review last night – specifically, the last paragraph:

    “So far we have seen a man desperate for votes and reelection [ Erdogan ] and now the idiot leader of ISIS , use this for their own spurious political reasons … and sandwiched in between are moderate Muslims, who in this country must only wish these types would desist in their bile filled inflammatory remarks.”

    Many of our Muslim citizens fled to this land of peace and quiet from various hell-holes around the world. They are the most inoffensive of inhabitants and must wish now for a return to the peace and security they enjoyed before a right-wing nutter disrupted their lives.

    • Sabine 3.1

      so true. so very very true.

    • greywarshark 3.2

      Song about how the immigrants probably feel here. Picture us gathering and welcoming them after their hard journey to get here with us – more than 500 miles, 1,000?

  4. Adrian Thornton 4

    Media Lens
    9 March 2019
    The Destruction of Freedom: Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange And The Corporate Media

    ‘the unequivocal determination of US authorities to fetter, if not totally neutralise, the reach of WikiLeaks in the modern information wars.’

    http://medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=898:the-destruction-of-freedom-chelsea-manning-julian-assange-and-the-corporate-media&catid=57:alerts-2019&Itemid=252

  5. Graeme 5

    Firearm reform just got really interesting with a split between the two big retail chains in the trade.

    Hunting and Fishing pulled military style firearms on Friday and won’t be putting them back instore, and are supporting a ban on online sales and firearm registration.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111407508/hunting–fishing-calls-for-ban-of-online-firearms-sales

    David Tipple and Gun City are spinning and been put on the wrong side of the debate by this.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111370460/gun-city-owner-confirms-christchurch-shooting-accused-bought-guns-there

    There was another really bizarre comment from Tipple yesterday about being robbed by a gang of Nazis, but couldn’t find that.

    Good on Hunting and Fishing for seeing where it’s headed and accepting reality, and preserving their business.

  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    I received the following Facebook post accompanied by a photo of Jacinda Ardern in a hijab. It was a reminder that not all New Zealanders are seeing things the same way and these people do not seem small in number:

    “This is part of the issue.. This is New Zealand. A Christian country. Our Prime Minister should reinforce OUR ideals. To cover her head when speaking to Muslims is an insult to OUR culture….. not respect for theirs. We all fail to recognise that Muslims are Muslims first and citizens second. Their religion will always take precedence over citizenship. ie, they will follow the laws of their religion before they follow the laws of the land they live in. The same applies to Jews… particularly Zionist Jews. For both groups, the loyalty to their religion will always take precedence! you would have to be deaf , blind & dumb to not see what has happened to many parts of the UK & suburbs of Sydney as a result of the numbers of Islamic persons .
    I for one am insulted by this as we know her globalist agenda
    Time to wake up sheeple .
    NB; I do not hate Musilm people at all ! I do not like the way they demean women and the more radical who actually read their koran , see us as infidels ,do I need to tell you what they propose to do to infidels ?

    THIS IS OUR PRIME MINISTER YOU ARE LOOKING AT !!
    april the 1st is still a long way off !”

    • Sabine 6.1

      should someone show him pictures of european women covering their hair while in church, or when going to funerals?

      i hope you have reported this post to fb.

      in saying that, i can see that some NZ or overseas Ersatz Nazis would want to change the discussion away from the mass murder of 50 muslims by a white supremacist terrorist, but he/she is failing.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1

        Vividly remember my youth in the UK… elderly parishioners proffering hankies as token head coverings for those heathens who were only visiting for one of the ‘three sprinkle’ services.

        It’s a sign of respect when in someone else’s house.

        I’m not a big bandwagon jumper, but I’m giving serious thought to wearing a headscarf should I have to venture away from home on Friday.

        Women especially are targets…and I’ve witnessed first hand hijab wearing Moslem women being bullied. By an older female registered nurse. Late at night, with small children in tow, far away from home while husband in surgery after a severe injury.

        • WeekendWarrior 6.1.1.1

          You do strike me as an overly negative person. Any comment on how the other 99.9% of Muslim women have been treated when attending our hospitals or other health institutions. I’d say they have been been treated with the upmost respect, and received the love and care they deserved.

          • Gabby 6.1.1.1.1

            uTmost.

          • Molly 6.1.1.1.2

            ” I’d say they have been been treated with the upmost respect, and received the love and care they deserved.”
            What evidence is this? You say?

          • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1.1.3

            What really concerned me about that particular incident was that the nurse treated these two women like shit right in front of me and my partner. Like, it was totally normal and acceptable. That we wouldn’t object. Like I wouldn’t go after these upset women and offer them apologies and comfort.

            What the fuck happens when there are no witnesses?

            Similarly with the day to day casual bigotry of the average person. Oh yes, I’d love to be all Pollyanna-ish and say difference is becoming more acceptable and tolerance abounds….but that would be a lie.

            In my less negative moments, I have some hope that this dreadful happening and the resultant demonstration of solidarity, unity and compassion, will be a trigger for us all to closely scrutinize our prejudices and dilute if not eliminate them.

      • arkie 6.1.2

        There are mandates for Christian women to wear headcoverings in the New Testament; 1 Corinthians 11:2–16. It’s also one of the parts of the bible explicitly saying women belong to, and are subservient to men. Ugh, talk about demeaning.

        Perhaps these ‘christians’ should read their own bible.

        • greywarshark 6.1.2.1

          This is part of a piece from Chris Trotter on Bowalley Road, a piece that TRP was strongly opposed to. It answers the person’s approach on Facebook I think.

          The Prime Minister will, doubtless, come under increasing pressure from angry and misguided persons to curtail the rights of New Zealanders articulating unpopular views concerning Maori-Pakeha relations, the Islamic religion, multiculturalism and immigration policy. In defence of the liberal-democratic values that Tarrant assaulted so violently, Jacinda should calmly resist all such calls. We must not allow the unanimity of our grief to be translated into a demand for unanimity of opinion.

          Let’s have – get used to diversity. A hijab covers the head and shoulder but not the face but also means something – the word means appropriate behaviour.
          https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241
          Hijab is a bit like nuns used to wear and probably some still do.
          (Apparently calling the headcovering a headscarf can be controversial with some because it is a limiting definition.)

          This wikipedia is very thorough on differing styles of Muslim women’s clothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_hijab

          A discussion on Muslim customs and recent trends, and historical background. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/?utm_term=.64ef9b1ee739

          I am against burkhas though. I don’t like the idea of women covering their faces so they are virtually anonymous. I don’t want them afraid to show their face, or be obeying some deep religious belief that says women should be separate from the world and its men. Women in the western world have fought for generations to acquire higher standing in a society that males have much control of; keep that standing for all, don’t let it slip away.

          • RedLogix 6.1.2.1.1

            The only time I have ever seen my partner pale and shaking with quiet anger was in a North Melbourne shopping mall when we first encountered the full black ‘walking tent’ burkha. Her reaction took me a bit by surprise as she grabbed my hand and firmly marched us out of there.

            She’d never openly say anything to the woman wearing it, but hell she finds them offensive in the extreme.

      • greywarshark 6.1.3

        Well I don’t like the way that western men demean women. And the way that people in general denigrated Marama when she talked about the word cunt which has appeared recently on this site by PM I think. And the word motherfucker which demeans the whole female gender.

        That Facebook poster has learned to read and write but not think about the words that flow out. Learning to think and reflect is just so important, it should be a subject on its own at school, both primary and secondary. It can replace religious instruction, and people can examine the thinking that we allow to guide us and get an idea of what line of thought we want to take in life.

        • WeTheBleeple 6.1.3.1

          Swearing is interesting. It is offensive to you culturally, and a stamp of mine. Some research says it is a sign of intellect. Many anecdotes think this is not entirely accurate… 😀

          Learning to swear without swearing, that is my ultimate goal.

          In this matter, Andre may be King.

    • marty mars 6.2

      Report hate speech so they can prosecute.

    • WeekendWarrior 6.3

      I do think that NZ is going to grapple with a major identity crisis over the coming months/years. You are starting to see this across social media. I do hope people can be kind to each other during this time – however the cynical side in me fears the worst.

    • RedLogix 6.4

      Besides I’m reasonably sure that mosques require ALL women to cover their heads when visiting. It would be normal protocol regardless of the circumstances.

    • I feel love 6.5

      NZ is a Christian country?

      • Molly 6.5.1

        You are right to ask, it isn’t.

      • Stuart Munro. 6.5.2

        Christianity is inescapably entangled with the values of our culture, even though it is presently in retreat.

        The trick is to preserve the better values, and leave the worst behind. An ecumenicalism that respects the sincerity of Muslims for instance, wouldn’t go amiss.

      • lprent 6.5.3

        NZ is a Christian country?

        Not according to me. I’m about as irreligious as it it is possible to get without falling into atheism. I simply don’t care if there are higher beings – because I am a skeptic and I like living my own life rather than someone else dictates on how I should live.

        But I had a very limited career in religion. I got kicked out of sunday school when I was a kid when I started to cause anguish to the ‘teacher’ by pointing out some inconsistencies between the instructions in the bible. Mostly between parts of the old testament, the new, and what was on offer from the Methodists. I’d read/scanned it all – but at age 7-8 I don’t think that I really understood it.

        However it made even less sense as I got older.

        Over the years, I’ve dug into most of the major religions and come to the conclusion that they have some pretty good descriptions about actual human behaviour and come up with some interesting rationalizations to cover them.

        Also that I have virtually zero faith, but have some pretty strong ideas about what I think works and what doesn’t both with humans and with the real world. I follow those principles.

        I haven’t noticed myself being particularly out of step with the rest of my society. Some (including some of my family) are pretty religious. Personally I couldn’t give a damn providing they don’t try to inflict too much of their belief systems on me either directly or indirectly. But that isn’t any different to how I react to everyone. I’ll tolerate other peoples idiosyncrasies – provided they tolerate mine :).

    • Peter 6.6

      Ms Ardern covering her head when speaking to Muslims isn’t an insult to our culture, saying it is is an insult to our intelligence.

      If ‘our culture’ is reduced to getting upset about what someone wears on their head when the sort of tragedy which occurred happened, it’s a pretty dismal culture and not worth preserving.

      • ianmac 6.6.1

        Those who depend on NZ being a Christian country do so from fear of losing their own identity. I imagine most people don’t care and census has shown that fewer than 50% claim to be Christians and of those many claim to be not active Christians.
        But respect for the beliefs of others if to be applauded Jacinda.

    • Gabby 6.7

      Stay away from them kiwibuggers piney.

    • aj 6.8

      And from my very brief look into the sewers this is a mild reaction. For that reason, I trust that the security requirements for members of parliament (and their families..)
      is a matter of urgent review.

  7. mauī 7

    Why couldn’t the scum have been caught sooner? Police were on the scene after 6 minutes? If so, surely they would have been hot on the heels of the guy, and possibly know where he was heading. Maybe that first call didn’t come in for a while though.

    Police had him detained after 36 minutes (which is still a considerable amount of time), on the first point of contact he had with police. That was by two officers who were doing training that day, not on-duty cops? What the?

    He was able to visit two different sites and get away from both. There was also the account from a citizen that walked outside his house and saw him reloading in his car, taking a pot shot at a motel and a nearby car, and I think driving around the block having a go at people in a car. If he had time to do that in the intervening time between the mosques, surely police would have been onto him? Maybe it was all just bad luck, they were in the wrong place, wrong time to cross paths.

    • Higherstandard 7.1

      I think you’d be hard pressed to find a police force anywhere in the world in a similar situation who would have had the suspect in custody in a shorter amount of time.

      • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1

        And the suspect was caught live.

        • bwaghorn 7.1.1.1

          Yip that’s the only bit the police mucked up . A simple bullet would have been good.

          • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1

            nah. Imprison and find as much as possible out about the fucker.

            But even if I were to agree, I’d rather police err on the side of taking an offender alive and not shooting any innocent parties, than doing the UK thing of shooting Brazilian electricians or the Aussie thing of shooting Harley/Joker role-players mid-coitus.

            • bwaghorn 7.1.1.1.1.1

              I know I know just wish thinking. Still think a death penalty for caught red handed cold blooded killers is needed. This fucker will be a minor celebrity for the rest of his life hell be on sixty minutes in 20 years time . Its just wrong.

              • McFlock

                There is no good resolution to this situation. Fucking sucks.

                And how many other nazis-by-any-other-name in NZ have semi-autos and maybe “accessories sold separately” like magazines and bayonets. They were so endemic we even let them openly brand their businesses. Fucko is probably not the only one. 200 people watched his stream for half an hour before reporting it.

                Almost all of us are responsible, and we need to own it. We all fucked up. I fucked up. I thought the periodic vandalism in cemetaries where swastikas were sprayed on Jewish tombstones was “just kids going through a phase”. I fucking dropped the ball too. I didn’t listen.

                I thought it was a thing that had arisen in the last few years, a byproduct of youtube marketers and social media wankists. But it’s always been here, and it’s grown stronger. And I should have listened.

    • Peter Christchurh nz 7.2

      On the scene in 6 minutes? That is an unequivocal lie by the Police. The shooter roamed free at the first mosque for over 10 minutes, as per the live video. Not a single Police in sight when he left.

      The Police did a brilliant job in very difficult circumstances, but they do themselves no credit by gilding the lily now.

      • aj 7.2.1

        6 minutes after the first call went out. We don’t know how long it took for a call to be made after it started

        • mauī 7.2.1.1

          I saw an incident once where a guy intentionally rammed another car and then both of the drivers got out and started fisticuffs. About 10 people like me were on the street watching this unfold, and I looked around at the other bystanders expecting someone to be on the phone to the cops, but no-one was. Everyone was transfixed…

        • Peter Christchurh nz 7.2.1.2

          AJ. Ok I see the logic there. My mistake.

      • mauī 7.2.2

        I was curious to watch the video to get a better idea of timings, but can’t bring myself to… I guess we’ll get a better picture of things at the trial.

        • marty mars 7.2.2.1

          “Kiwi workers have been have been fired for watching the Christchurch shooter’s livestream at work and sharing it with colleagues.”

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12214455

          Curious eh like a wee puddy cat – ffs

          • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.2.1.1

            A friend’s workmate popped down to the IT department about 4pm on Friday.

            Found IT person howling and snotting into a wad of tissues confessing he’d just made the worst mistake of his life.

            Beyond belief that some of the relatives have watched the footage to ‘find’ loved ones.

            • WeTheBleeple 7.2.2.1.1.1

              Spreading trauma was the intention. People who viewed and shrug it off should be watched for who they hang with online. People who screwed up like your IT guy need counsel. Trauma is part of radicalisation.

              People who shared it should get slammed by the law, and named, and investigated.

            • Sabine 7.2.2.1.1.2

              a comment i read on a US newspaper was like , it popped up on Twitter, i watched it, watched it, got up and puked, looked at my AR15 and now just want the weapon gone.

              I think when it initially popped up most people thought it was just the usual thing ‘ shooter stand off’ as they are very much used too in the US, but then he started shooting and they realized it was so much worse.

              i hate the video that show cops killing people or abusing people and such, i can see why they serve a purpose in the US to hold cops accountable , but i don’t watch them. I have no need to.

        • WeTheBleeple 7.2.2.2

          Yeah the coppers will have to watch it poor sods. They’ll put it together.

    • mpledger 7.3

      In this article it updates the timing.

      “I have now been made aware that, while we had the offender in custody at the Justice Precinct within 36 minutes, it in fact only took 21 minutes from the first 111 call for the offender to be apprehended at the roadside by the two officers.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111425523/gunman-stopped-on-way-to-third-attack–police-commissioner-mike-bush

      Part of that was that those policemen who arrested the gunman were fantastically, incredibly brave … they did it alone without back-up. Part of that was also those heros at the mosque who marked the car by damaging it and rushed the gunman to make him leave.

  8. Whats all this talk about social misfits and sex?

    How the weather, Trevor?

    Bonnie & Clyde, Chapter 1 – YouTube

  9. RedLogix 9

    Now here is an interesting angle, the Chinese have put in their two renminbi’s worth:

    Despite the strong comments, the Christchurch gunman’s online manifesto, posted online before Friday’s mass shooting, specifically pointed out China as the country he identified most with.

    “The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China,” he wrote, before going on to praise its “lack of diversity” — which he believed made it “strong”.

    https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/stateowned-chinese-media-says-christchurch-shooting-shows-the-west-is-weakening/news-story/775ec231251dac9d7ec5757c58d58a05

    • WeTheBleeple 9.1

      While I’d ignore anything the herniated hobgoblin has to say (rather than reprint only his words), the article has a few good points:

      “The Western political system discourages overall planning and long-term solutions. Poor political and social governance is common.”

      Couldn’t agree more. Jacinda is obviously exceptional.

      • RedLogix 9.1.1

        I think we should pay close attention to what he says, lest we unwittingly continue to carry out his real plan for him.

        • WeTheBleeple 9.1.1.1

          Or we could learn from the event, and ignore the delusional diaper. I understand you’d like to understand him I say again he’s only got poison to offer there is no understanding it is smoke and mirrors and lulz.

          He want’s us discussing what’s wrong with China, like it’s important to be doing that. Can you not see the mind of a manipulator here?

          He wants to piss of Turkey, and ISIS, and us. He wants us to point at countries, not terror.

          • marty mars 9.1.1.1.1

            Mate think Dennis with a different haircut. The middlemen always dilute. Kia kaha.

        • Shadrach 9.1.1.2

          I agree. Some of the commentary on his motives so far has been as shallow as a puddle.

        • Sabine 9.1.1.3

          yes, i strongly would advise that hte words of the deplorable are read, discussed open and publicly so that we actually can identify that shit when it happens in our own communities.
          hiding it is not going to help anyone.

        • One Two 9.1.1.4

          Exactly, Red.

          Observing the comfort levels, indeed the masses begging for total censorship of the events, including historical context, should be regarded as deeply troubling…

      • Shadrach 9.1.2

        The western political system is based on democratic decision making. It’s easy to plan long term when you’re operating an autocracy.

        • WeTheBleeple 9.1.2.1

          Yes. The Carbon work James Shaw is doing will be an interesting test if we, a democracy, can stop petty squabbles and effect change.

          Bipartisanship. That Western myth. 😉

        • Sam 9.1.2.2

          Depends what you’re planning for. During WW2 the biggest problem turned out to be labor, many of the industries that cranked out war material in 1943/44/45, didn’t exist in 1940, and stopped existing by 1950, because during peace time there isn’t anywhere near enough work to sustain the number of factories they ended up building.

          Whether you’re planning an invasion or corporate take over its the price that matters. Black swan events can happen at any price level. Insuring that the GDP rises faster than the price of peace prevent future fuck ups of prior planning.

        • KJT 9.1.2.3

          If we were “Democratic” we would plan long term.

          80% want the Government to take action on AGW.

          Only 40% of our Government, if we are lucky, it seems.

          • Shadrach 9.1.2.3.1

            Do you not believe we live in a democracy? Do you believe the PRC is a democracy?

            • KJT 9.1.2.3.1.1

              I just gave some numbers to confirm we are NOT, a “Democracy”.

              We do get a vote on our Dictators names, three yearly however.

              In China they don’t even get that.

              • Shadrach

                “I just gave some numbers to confirm we are NOT, a “Democracy”.”

                1. Unverified and unsourced numbers are of no value and confirm nothing.
                2. Opinion poll results (if that is what they are) confirm nothing.
                3. A society that makes law based on the whims of opinion polling is not a democracy.

                In case you have any doubts, here is a definition of democracy:

                “a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.”
                https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

                NZ is, of course, a democracy. China, is not.

                • KJT

                  “Vested on the people”.

                  It is manifestly not, when you have a Government, that has forgotten it is supposed to be “representatives”.

                  Opinion polls, given the lack of the ability to vote on policies, gives an indication of how far away, politicians are from, our democratic control.

                  Note: Authoritarians on both the left and right oppose democracy. The fantasy, that we already have democracy, was one of the objections to the Chartists, and their strange idea of votes for the peasants, along with the idea that only an “elite” could be trusted with power.
                  Help. We may even vote to keep the earnings of our own labour.

                  “Act fast and keep them guessing”. Before people find out what the Government are doing and oppose it.
                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/91005330/towns-full-of-weeping-women-rogernomics-30-years-later

                  Is that the sign of a Democracy?

                  • Shadrach

                    “It is manifestly not, when you have a Government, that has forgotten it is supposed to be “representatives”.”

                    That is your subjective opinion, and it is deemed irrelevant by the accountability of any government in a democracy to “and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections”.

                    “Opinion polls, given the lack of the ability to vote on policies, gives an indication of how far away, politicians are from, our democratic control.”

                    Opinion polls represent the momentary views of a tiny sample of the population. They are not the basis for governance.

                    “Is that the sign of a Democracy?”

                    The sign of a democracy is that since 1984 there have been 11 free elections in which the people of NZ have had the ability to vote for a raft of different ideas and ideologies.

                    • Sam

                      Do you concede that democracy is a complete and utter failure in both England and Greece where the experiments first started?

                    • Shadrach

                      “Do you concede that democracy is a complete and utter failure in both England and Greece where the experiments first started?”

                      Define what you mean by ‘failure’.

                    • Sam

                      Well, are you able to comprehend the fact that direct democracy Athenian style where every male would line up and vote on everything was absolutely terrible for woman?

                      And are you able to comprehend that feudal lords buying democratic votes to initiate the most draconian labour laws that have ever touched this planet was simply terrible for children?

                    • Shadrach

                      Are you able to comprehend that we live in 2019. Women have been able to vote in Greece since 1952.

                    • KJT

                      “Opinion polls represent the momentary views of a tiny sample of the population. They are not the basis for governance”.

                      Election results represent the current inclinations of a minority of people who are swing voters. Fixed it for you.

                      Can’t fix your wilful ignorance of how statistical sampling works, for you. I think it is terminal.

                    • Sam

                      Shaddy, what kind of an injury prevents some one from comprehending the fact that New Zealand has a Westminster system and a huge problem with child abuse in state care. Are the injuries so great you can’t even carry your own thoughts? Asking for a mate.

                    • Shadrach

                      “Election results represent the current inclinations of a minority of people who are swing voters. “
                      Elections are open to all qualified voters, not just a tiny sample. And any of those voters can vote for whomever they like. We don’t make laws based on opinion polls for good reason.

                    • Shadrach

                      “Asking for a mate.“
                      Abuse in state care happens in countries that are not democracies. Remember Romania?

                    • Sam

                      What kind of answer was that? Because of Romanias proximity to the Soviet Union after WW2 there leadership was preoccupied with differentiating themselves with Russia and thus ineffective.

                      A large part of being a “philosopher-king” as you, Shady, write so deeply about is that the king in question is virtuous and good in nature, that the philosopher paradoxically is the best suited to rule precisely because the philosopher does not desire power, that the philosopher would not lust for control. The philosopher can cultivate his own morality and intellect through education, but that does not necessarily mean strong leadership qualities.

                      Thus, the main problem is that the qualities that makes people great are not the same ones that make people virtuous. That is why there are problems with the philosopher-king, that is why those people are quite rare, because in the face of absolute power, how many people wouldn’t be tempted to abuse if they were able to obtain it in the first place? Those great people that are attracted to power?

                    • Shadrach

                      Obviously you missed the point entirely. My comment about Romania related to the abuse of children in state run orphanages, picking up from your comment about child abuse. You still haven’t explained why you assert democracy has ‘failed’.

                    • Sam

                      Democracy Greek and Westminster style. GG

                    • Shadrach

                      How have they failed?

                    • Sam

                      BREXIT> GREXIT. GG

                    • Shadrach

                      How has democracy failed around Brexit?

                    • Sam

                      Referendum <Westminster = Fail. GG

                    • Shadrach

                      It hasn’t failed. It just hasn’t happened yet. But note-the British people had the opportunity to express their opinion in the referendum. Do they have referenda in North Korea?

                    • Sam

                      You’re literally ignoring what I said. I’m implying that the Westminster democratic experiment and Athenian style ended when they failed to improve or maintain the quality of life of there people. You haven’t provided one argument as to why you think democracy is so wonderful instead appeal to false equivalence in Korea.

                    • Shadrach

                      You’re the one who claimed democracy has failed. You’re the one provided Brexit as an example. I’m calling bullshit on you.

                    • Sam

                      You’ve got no reply to my arguments so you’ve taken the bitch route around so you don’t have to do research or use a logical argument because you’ve got nothing but technical words and yes bullshit is a technical term. Or do you honestly think that BREXIT is a roaring success and that I’m wrong for stating that a whole generation of English is now fucked.

                      At home government mining inspectors failed 29 Pike River miners and the security aperartus failed 50 Muslim worshippers and you haven’t got a single good thing to say about that because it’s a moral argument not a democratic rules based argument. Lovely democratic rules aren’t bringing nothing back so they have to change because it was a failure just like our gun laws.

                    • Shadrach

                      “You’ve got no reply to my arguments…”

                      I have rebutted your arguments. Including:

                      1. Women not being able to vote in Greece. (Yes they can vote in Greece).

                      2. Child abuse. (Child abuse is not a determinant of democracy – that seemed to be an idiot piece of illogic).

                      3. Brexit. (Brexit is still a work in progress. In a non-democracy, there would have been no vote for or agin. You seem to miss the irony of your own stupidity).

                    • Sam

                      The only rebatuls that you made was some confused questions mixed with emotional outbursts.

                      Well then your kiwi values are the most misvalued in New Zealand. Kiwi values came about at the end of the Land Wars because there was a Māori reaction to British imperialism. Western intellectuals are just plain cocky. There attitude to the rest of New Zealand is hey! The land wars has ended, Britain won, now you the rest of New Zealand have only one road of history.

                      We all have to be cultural clones of Britian, and that’s what kiwi values reject and say no, we will not become cultural or political clones of the west. It’s not that kiwis disagree about the values of democracy or human rights, we disagree about the way those things ought to be implemented and history is on our so piece because the societies that tried to leave over night like Romania and Yugoslavia was a disaster. 1000 of people die because of this experiment in democracy imposed on poor people.

                      Take Rwanda, 800,000 people died because they tried to convert a democracy with converting the underlying ethnic fabric down there. These things you have to change car fully and in that sense you have to say the Māori approach to do things carefully and deliberately has been vindicated. Now a days no westerner advocates democracy in the way that they used to in 1990-1995.

                    • Shadrach

                      So you still cannot demonstrate how democracy has ‘failed’. Come on, explain what you mean by failed and then provide an example of where and how it failed.

                    • Sam

                      I don’t find that very relevant. The attributes you are assuming is with out evidence. Systemic failures do happen because it’s based off of our own democratic system. Democracies are stated to be expanding, static or regressing. Either one is constant. And like I said before it’s very clear that you’re trying to ignore what I said because you are not thinking very heavily about the structure of our democracy.

                    • Shadrach

                      “…you’re trying to ignore what I said…”
                      No, I’m calling you on precisely what you said.

                      Here’s one of your claims:

                      “Do you concede that democracy is a complete and utter failure in both England and Greece where the experiments first started?”

                      Open mike 20/03/2019

                      When I challenged you to explain that you made some remarks about women not having the vote in Greece (which they do), child abuse and Brexit.

                      In no way has democracy failed in the UK or in Greece. In both countries people get to vote in regular and free elections. Democracy makes no promises about the decisions of elected representatives; it simply says that those representatives represent the will of the people because it is the people who have chosen them.

                      If you want to see what failure looks like, google ‘Soviet Union’.

                    • Sam

                      You’re not just ignoring my supplementary arguments, you want me to reherse my main argument that democracy Athenian and English have come to a crises point with in its geography about trade. You’re the only one with out substance, logic or reason as to why democracy is not in crises. As for your red hearing about the Soviet Union well, Russia and Iran are putting a whooping on Americas ISIS creation and Merica can’t do a single thing about it. Anything else you want to bring up?

                    • Shadrach

                      “You’re not just ignoring my supplementary arguments…”

                      You haven’t made any! You’re just writing gibberish disguised as, well, gibberish.

                    • Sam

                      Don’t straw man my arguments because you’re confused. Iv clearly stated that democracy is in big trouble, not just from a female or a child’s perspective but from mega populations as well, we are burning through more than a planets worth of resources every year low balled, and any one from big oil to government conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones or the Russia did it conspiracy theorist will deny climate change so people lie which is the greatest moral crises in all of history and all you can say in reply is some dum shit like:

                      Oh, You haven’t made any! And oh, You’re just writing gibberish, And guess what? It’s disguised as, well, gibberish.

                      And then the one looney toon in the back start laughing at his own jokes. That’s what makes you shady mr shady. You are dishonest. You haven’t got a single good thing to say about democracy because it’s shit, all you can say in reply is dumb shit like oh you don’t know how it fits all the time.

                    • Shadrach

                      “Iv clearly stated that democracy is in big trouble…”

                      No, you said it had failed. Good sidestep. And if it is ‘in big trouble’ explain why so many of the worlds populations are desperate to leave their totalitarian countries to migrate to democracies?

                    • Sam

                      So now you want to knit pick about the small differences of being in “big trouble” and “failure” instead of coming at my argument directly you choose to take the lower difficulty reply around my argument, again. Amazingly predictable.

                    • Shadrach

                      “…instead of coming at my argument directly…”

                      You haven’t made an argument. You have put forward a contention that democracy has failed. Yet some of the most successful nations on the planet are democracies, and most of the basket cases are not. When you actually make an argument, then I’ll pick it apart.

                    • Sam

                      That’s like the millionth time you’ve ignored what I’v said and just went on a duck slide to avoid having even a basic conversation.

                    • Shadrach

                      “That’s like the millionth time you’ve ignored what I’v said…”

                      I’ve quoted back to you exactly what you said. I’m asking you to back it up. You can’t.

                    • Sam

                      Ok so do you agree that Theresa May is an adequate Prime Minister, yes or no?

                    • Shadrach

                      “Ok so do you agree that Theresa May is an adequate Prime Minister, yes or no?”

                      It’s irrelevant what I think. What is relevant, is that if the British people think she is inadequate, they can vote her and her party out! Unlike in North Korea. Now, explain again how democracy has ‘failed’.

                    • Sam

                      Nope, I totally agree with you that it’s irrelevant what you think. Thanks for conceding that point. Got any other premises you’d like to bring up?

                      [Sam. You’re boring, repetitive and contributing nothing of value. If you continue to behave like a bot, you’ll be treated like one. TRP]

                    • Robert Guyton

                      On that wall…the writing.

                    • Sam

                      There’s a Royal Commision on into the failures of 15/3 and TRP has an attitude problem.

    • And how is the human rights record of the largest totalitarian state on earth?

      Ask Amnesty International.

      That would be typical of the small brained wonder so at least we can all discount THAT point of view…

    • mpledger 9.3

      China is diverse. Not the greatest of source but
      “There are 56 ethnicities officially recognized by Chinese government, and many of those ethnicities have their own languages.”
      https://www.quora.com/How-diverse-is-China-in-terms-of-culture-and-language

  10. Heather Grimwood 10

    Hope ‘Open Mike’ suitable place to protest my shock at Crusaders’ coach etc just reported through ODT web to be deferring name change till later. I am gobsmacked. Is it too hard? Can new jerseys not be acquired for imminent match in Australia? Is loss of money involved? Is ignorance involved? Maybe all of these,
    but certainly in my opinion absolutely gutless.

    • vto 10.1

      Poor showing, I agree. It is not as if this hasn’t been raised with them before…

      … knowing NZ Rugby, it will likely concern money, betcha

    • aj 10.2

      Imagine the Dortmund club playing in the Bundesliga being called the ‘Dortmund Stormtroopers’.
      This is not quite so directly bad, but it would be great if the team management were to simply front foot a change. I doubt it would even get to the table back in the days of Ces Blazey and Ron Don, so at least the union has made some progress.

    • marty mars 10.3

      + 1 The white supremacists will get upset – the crusaders name didn’t just fall out of the air – someone suggested it, supported it and developed the imagery – horses, with men in armour carrying swords, dressed in crosses. All to show the crusading spirit of the place lol what a load of bullshit.

      • When I was a lad growing up in ChCh one branding image that remains in my mind is that of Canterbury Lamb.

        Could I respectfully suggest the Crusaders be remained The Canterbury Lambs?

        sarc/

    • WeTheBleeple 10.4

      They need to stump up a new name. A sign of respect not an enclave of old assholes.

      • aj 10.4.1

        I’ve got it.
        ‘Canterbury Rangers’
        It’s a play on the Southern Alps, which forms the backbone of the region. Should be easy to come up with appropriate imagery and themes which play into the spirit of the region and fits into the theme of names of other teams.

    • mauī 10.5

      Sadly not surprising. Remember their fellow franchise’s stripper scandal a couple of years ago? The response was to attack the victim, circle the wagons and protect the players and avoid them taking responsibility.

      It would be really easy for them to blank out the logo on the players shirts for the rest of the season. Tell the media to refer to them only as the “Canterbury” super rugby team until they’ve come up with a new name next year. If this is “bigger than rugby” like their organisation is currently saying, then not only are bold political actions necessary, but ones that crossover into sport too. A sad, sad failure of leadership by this org.

  11. Heather Grimwood 11

    The above comments have disappeared from ODT’s web. I thank them. but doesn’t alter fact that the statement has been put out by Canterbury rugby.

    • Gabby 11.1

      I’m disturbed that they have not once denied an intention to invade the Middle East and reclaim the holy places for Christendom. This definitely needs looking into.

  12. marty mars 12

    Thanks Scott for the timely history lesson.

    “The killer was an Australian. But New Zealand has a long history of white supremacist ideology, writes Scott Hamilton.”

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/20-03-2019/the-land-of-the-long-white-stain/

    • Dennis Frank 12.1

      A excellent report. “The White New Zealand League formed in 1925… founded in Franklin… it succeeded in enforcing a system of segregation in towns like Pukekohe and Papakura. Pukekohe’s barber shops and pub were whites-only zones… Papakura’s tavern was reserved for whites until 1959”.

      As per apartheid. Further instances since? The media reported the other day that most of the women in the mosque survived because they weren’t allowed in the main prayer room that the shooter entered – so he never knew they were in a separate room. Islamic gender segregation saved their lives.

      • marty mars 12.1.1

        Scott’s blog ‘Reading the Maps’ has many excellent posts – recommended.

        • Dennis Frank 12.1.1.1

          Thanks. His email exchange with Marama, detailed in his Feb 14 report, was very interesting. I agreed with his point re the PNG govt. Helping the islanders directly would put pressure on PNG to facilitate a solution.

          I thought his criticism of the Greens having too much of a focus on the global governance dimension was valid, inasmuch as Marama’s response seemed to avoid what the islanders are trying to do. I get that politicians must conform to the ethos of the political community, but the downside is that policy initiatives can seem irrelevant to the needs of local folk – and grass-roots democracy was a Greens priority originally.

  13. Just a little history lesson for some.

    Not long after Muhammad’s [ ‘ascension ‘ ] , it was realized by certain military opportunists that the provision of ‘Jihad’ was a useful expansionist tool of this new religion called Islam , and as they swept across North Africa they made ‘ converts ‘ and ‘ proselytes’ by demanding either you convert to Islam or be beheaded by the sword.

    The Viking Kings did much the same in renouncing paganism and giving you the choice of converting to Christianity or being beheaded.

    So much for the peace and love and forgiveness message of Jesus Christ….

    Needless to say most converted. And they were no different from any other empire building movement using a mixture of force of arms and diplomacy such as Rome , or Alexander the Great , the Assyrians , Babylonians or any before them.

    Becoming centralized and seeing Christian Europe as the main obstacle in a military and economic sense [ controlling trade routes etc ],… they devised a massive pinscher like movement into Europe. They moved up through the Balkan areas and on into East Poland in such forces that appeals to the Pope were made for military back up which failed to materialize. A second column moved across North Africa and on into Morocco, Portugal and Spain and attempted to invade France.

    The latter were then checked by the Frankish foot soldiers and driven back into Spain… where they later on became the Spanish Moors.

    Although there were tension’s regarding borders and trade boiling over between Christian Europe and the federation of Islamic army’s , it was the Islamic army’s who launched the first assault.

    This may be seen as poor taste at this time and Eurocentric, but the facts remain that both European and Islamic records show this to be the case. The truth is the truth. And the past cannot be changed. The ensuing response of the crusaders over the next century’s were brutal but so also were the counters made by the Islamic army’s.

    So the Crusaders seek to change their name. However , while not necessarily a part of European history to be proud of , – by the standards of that time they were no worse than any other groups they faced. Warfare was brutal , massacres on both sides were commonplace and political treachery was almost always guaranteed.

    The past , the truth and history cannot be changed.

    • marty mars 13.1

      Yeah it is poor taste and eurocentric and after all your bigfoot stuff not to be believed unless decent evidence or links to credible sources are produced. It is also irrelevant too.

      • WILD KATIPO 13.1.1

        I wouldn’t have expected much more from you.

        There’s an old maxim – particularly when it comes to undermining a bandwagon or sacred cow…

        ‘The truth hurts’.

        Wear it well chump and learn your history , revisionist .

        Another one knocked off their smug perch.

        • marty mars 13.1.1.1

          Lol – well done – only the crumblist flakeist chocolate, tastes like chocolate never tasted before…

    • WeTheBleeple 13.2

      “The past , the truth and history cannot be changed.”

      But branding can be changed. History, and especially bloodshed, could be learned from but not deified.

      Sporting teams are icons to many and this is why I think the PC argument trumps the preservation of history argument.

      You said it yourself, you can’t change history.

      But we can change, I hope and will continue to hope we continue to change for the better.

      • WILD KATIPO 13.2.1

        I think what I dislike is the sudden rush of emotionalism and blind sentiment. Yes of course it is good if the club / brand chooses to have a name change. Just not under the overwhelming pressure from the all too loud vocal minority left wing screamers.

        It always seems suspect to me that in order to join the herd and gain a sense of approval these screamers will parrot the echo chamber and pile on the put downs with thier juvenile school yard name calling and insults. And that is distasteful, something which happens all too often here on this site.

        And if you were to ask them to give a full and comprehensive overview of history they could at best go back to about… WW2… WW1 if you are lucky. And still fail to even basically comprehend the political reasons why things happened as they did.

        They are thick, and they are tiresome.

        Is history and knowing history without the puerile repetition of being accused by these little children of ‘changing history to suit the victors point of view’ a sacrilege?

        How many of them are always ready with the worn out ‘ first they came for … fill in the blanks , but then they came for me … but cold hard facts to enlighten them why ?… they cannot tolerate.

        Snowflakes needing a safe place . So the popular slogan goes.

        A bit like Darwinist’s, eh marty.

        • marty mars 13.2.1.1

          Seems you’ve moved from your place of compassion – sad for you. How about think they are the LANDLORDS of the name charging massive rent while people are suffering.

          • WILD KATIPO 13.2.1.1.1

            More than happy to upset your smug ,snide, nasty little niche , marty.

            With a few more years maturity even you will come to understand that political partisanship is the origins of the very hatred you profess to oppose.

            One day you’ll get the message and the penny will drop.

            And you too, will look back on the arrogant know it all you were and feel embarrassment.

            • marty mars 13.2.1.1.1.1

              You’ve got some solid mirror talk there – good on you.

              • Yes , … yes how awfully witty and urbane of you ‘marty’ … or ‘ Rick’ ,… or ‘Prick’ ,… or whatever he was called…

                Don’t get pricked in the tit by your chest protesters button, eh. One for every occasion with your type.

                Just make sure it doesn’t puncture through those close to the rib cage lungs , or the black velvet jacket mate.

                Wish you well in your second year of political science study’s, bozo.

                • marty mars

                  We’re all in need of mirror time mate me included. Sorry you feel hurt – I did try to lean in via the landlord stuff and obviously got it wrong.

                  • Sam

                    The Crusders management can not be bullied or coerced into changing there franchise name. For one as soon as they got the okay from the IRB and NZRU that would trigger an immediate recal of all merchandise and new merchandise produced. That’s a big call to make after already stocking up on this years jerseys. These aren’t small things and the board won’t accept advice from normies trying to replicate The Crusaders reputation and track record then calling it something else like we are the wokiest radical leftists in New Zealand community.

        • Heather Grimwood 13.2.1.2

          I certainly did not suggest changing history……don’t invent diversionary side-issues. My point was shock that the name change has not already happened. I also feel disgust at use of term ‘snowflake’ for those who are anything but.
          Won’t be back ..my point made and am busy.

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.3

          If NZ only acts when it is given a prod, perhaps we should note this and work out how to apply civilised prods so we can get things done that inertia has slooowed in to entropy and atrophy. See you there!

    • Stuart Munro. 13.3

      “a massive pinscher like movement into Europe”

      They were terrier-ists 😀 .

    • joe90 13.4

      The past , the truth and history cannot be changed.

      Yet you’ve done just that by conflating Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula with the Ottoman Empire’s European campaigns.

      • WILD KATIPO 13.4.1

        Read your history or get relegated to marty mars position.

        • joe90 13.4.1.1

          Read your history

          The Moors invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 711. They spread northward into France until 732, when Martel and his boys handed them their arses.

          By 1491, the Reconquista had retaken the peninsula and Christians were back running the shop.

          In 1683 the Ottoman Empire besieged Vienna.

  14. greywarshark 14

    Terrorism round the world. Can we extend our sympathy beyond our own shores?
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-21/how-the-word-terrorism-is-used-and-misused-across-the-globe/9862124

    • WeTheBleeple 14.1

      “Until we start to broaden our understanding of what these movements are, we are going to continue to play whack-a-mole, which is what we have been doing for years”

      I think also, until we stop using war as an opportunity to push corporate and/or political agendas, the game of whack a mole will never cease.

      You turn up in an area, arm it, bomb it, blame it. OMG, the locals doth protest.

      And though they like cuddly fuzzy in their war stories, whack-a-mole is not a game played with a plastic bat. It is military operations by the west on various populations and factions in countries they poorly understand.

      I know it is incredibly complex, well beyond me. There does seems to be a West Knows Best theme played out a lot. Sometimes we might know, but how often were we crass and clueless.

  15. Do the NZ Police really know how many or where the weapons are located ?

    Evidently all the gangs are heavily tooled up here in NZ ?

  16. Dennis Frank 16

    Elucidating the mental health question: “the Mental Health Foundation has been disappointed but unsurprised to see some people speculating the terrorist must have been mentally ill. We understand why it’s comforting to think this. We all want to think the terrorist is an outlier, an outsider, different to us. We want to try and understand this incomprehensible tragedy, to find a simple answer that helps to explain what happened, to make sense of the shooting.  But this answer is nothing but a fiction, and it’s one we must not hide behind if we are to heal from Friday’s terrible events. Shooting people is not a symptom of a mental illness.”
    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/20-03-2019/extremism-is-not-a-mental-illness/

    Doesn’t mean we’re meant to regard it as normal though, eh? Perhaps there’s a social space between sanity and insanity. How do we best categorise people who decide that mass killing is the best way to solve social and political problems?

    • solkta 16.1

      No there is no “social space between sanity and insanity”. As you fucking well know insanity is a legal concept in which the person did not understand at the time what they were doing. This person knew exactly what they were doing.

      • Compass Rose 16.1.1

        The killer has a moral illness not a mental illness. A sociopathic murderer. Bad not mad. That is how he should be categorised.

        • solkta 16.1.1.1

          It is not possible to have a “moral illness”, that makes no sense. You can’t have an illness of ideas.

          illness
          noun

          A disease or period of sickness affecting the body or mind.

          (Oxford)

        • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.2

          Good to have a respondent addressing the point! I agree with sociopathic. Morality is an interesting dimension. I suspect some will explore it eventually, but analysis of the shooter’s morality requires examining what he wrote as rationale. Too distasteful for me!

          Published quotations from it suggests an extreme incrowd/outcrowd psychology operating in his mind, perhaps even beyond hatred. A threat-response requiring mass elimination, apparently. Use of crusader terminology adds an historical dimension – however nobody has suggested any personal link with Christianity, so the ideology that applies seems racial to many commentators. We await citation of evidence to support their diagnosis.

          • solkta 16.1.1.2.1

            We await citation of evidence to support their diagnosis.

            Who’s diagnosis? Still no ball to play.

          • SPC 16.1.1.2.2

            The alleged murderer opposes immigration of people of “other cultures”.

            Thus his approval of China/Korea for their lack of immigration and focus on historic European Christendom resistance of Moslem incursion (Spain and Balkans).

            We can connect his lack of personal social life (incel category) to his search for a wider community allegiance – his the white race nation family cause. Given he has financial resources he was rather singular about it. And decided to act and so gain status with those in that orbit.

            There are parallels in the Moslem world, with those joining the Islamist cause – as an identity allegiance, some as faith extremists but for others it was to find community.

            As for classifying people who make these choices to commit murder, consider state actions – PNAC advised in Iraq and subsequent decisions by a range of actors since.

            • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.2.2.1

              I agree with your diagnosis of community involvement. Non-local communities have been a major societal trend a long time, which internet & web has ramped up. I don’t get this bit: “state actions – PNAC advised in Iraq”.

              • SPC

                The Project for a New American Century called for an American military invasion of Iraq and regime change before 9/11. The post 9/11 lies about WMD were the official justification for carrying out their plan – which has caused many people to die then and since.

                If the ICC had the jurisdiction (that a UNSC member denies them), they along with the government officials would be before a court.

                The preparedness to use power was akin to that of Hitler, Stalin and Mao – no regard for the human conseqences. Power corrupts and into what psychological profile?

    • greywarshark 16.2

      Ask Tony Blair, for a fee he will pass on his brilliant insights on this. Trump will make millions and squillions when he walks his hairpiece away from the White House.

    • marty mars 16.3

      “Shooting people is not a symptom of a mental illness.” Mental Health Foundation

      “Doesn’t mean we’re meant to regard it as normal though, eh?” Dennis Frank

      This is why your comments get negative reactions. You, who knows fuck all, presumes to know better than professionals or at least you dilute and distort based on what? Zip. You showed during the JLR saga that your understanding of this stuff is childlike at best and here you go again. By what arrogance do you think you can do this? Privilege and ego.

      • Dennis Frank 16.3.1

        If you genuinely believe that shooting people is normal, I suggest you explain why. Play the ball, not the man. Ever heard of the concept of fair play?

        • marty mars 16.3.1.1

          Why do you know better than the professionals you undermine?

          • greywarshark 16.3.1.1.1

            You are feeling this disaster strongly marty mars. It is hard to believe.
            So many things have gone wrong because of our government choosing to take a back seat and let ‘the market’ decide.

            Thinking of Nietzsche:
            https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/nietzsches-advice-for-how-to-find-meaning-in-your-life

            This is something for us all to chew over:
            “When the anarchist, as the mouthpiece of the declining levels of society, insists on ‘right,’ ‘justice,’ ‘equal rights’ with such beautiful indignation, he is just acting under the pressure of his lack of culture, which cannot grasp why he really suffers, what he is poor in– in life.

            A drive to find causes is powerful in him: it must be somebody’s fault that he’s feeling bad . . . Even his ‘beautiful indignation’ does him good; all poor devils like to whine–it gives them a little thrill of power.

            Even complaints, the act of complaining, can give life the charm on account of which one can stand to live it: there is a subtle dose of revenge in every complaint; one blames those who are different for one’s own feeling bad, and in certain circumstances even being bad, as if they were guilty of an injustice, a prohibited privilege. ‘If I’m a lowlife, you should be one too’: on this logic, revolutions are built.–
            Friedrich Nietzsche

            He also said:
            Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones; but by contrary extreme positions.
            So that reflects his ideas on our likely inability to rehabilitate this person haunted by murderous or hate-filled ideas.

            Some of his other musings.

            The ‘kingdom of Heaven’ is a condition of the heart – not something that comes ‘upon the earth’ or ‘after death.’

            Is man one of God’s blunders? Or is God one of man’s blunders?

            Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/friedrich_nietzsche_159164

            • KJT 16.3.1.1.1.1

              Not a fan of Nietzsche.

              Though admit philosophers are too airy theory for me, mostly.

              Despite being non religious I prefer this poetry.
              “No man is an island, entire of itself. Never ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee”.

        • solkta 16.3.1.2

          There is no ball to play, just a man being a fuckwit. Does anybody here think you are “normal”? What is “normal”? How does this concept of yours relate to mental illness? It doesn’t in any way so there is no need to answer, my questions are rhetorical.

        • KJT 16.3.1.3

          Many people do think that starving, “shooting” and bombing people, is perfectly normal.
          Especially when it is “us” doing it!

          Vietnam.
          Korea.
          Laos.
          Cambodia.
          San Salvador.
          Chile.
          Guatemala.
          Columbia.
          Indonesia.
          Iraq.
          Libya.

          Saying that the perpetrators were “mentally ill” is not only a cop out, but it stereotypes and unfairly labels those with a mental illness.

          Observations at Nuremberg was “how sane and normal, the monsters appeared”. “The banality of evil”. “Evil committed by petty bureaucracy and “decent church going family men” alike”.

        • One Two 16.3.1.4

          Dennis, you’re in the wrong place if it’s ‘fair play’ you’re asking for…

          Numbers of the US mass shooters were on psychotropic medication, which is used as part/whole treatment for ‘mental health’ issues…

          So while that does not imply all mass shootings are carried out by those with mental health issues….It is a strong link which suggests a causal factor…

          Does the above apply in these circumstances…I make no comment on that…

          But your position that mental health issues play a part in mass shootings has a basis of evidence indicating there is a link…

          • solkta 16.3.1.4.1

            It is a strong link which suggests a causal factor

            No it isn’t. Just saying “numbers” means nothing. Actual stats as to how many mass murderers were found not guilty on the basis of insanity versus those who were found guilty would be relevant.

            In this case it is very obvious the guy was sane. He provided a manifesto that proves so.

            • One Two 16.3.1.4.1.1

              Sane you say…manifesto you point to ‘proof of sanity…

              No. It’s not ‘proof’…

              Solkta, your comments in response to mine in recent times, indicate lack of knowledge and understanding on the topics being discussed…

              Those stats you refer to…confirm as much…

              You’re welcome to respond to any of my comments…but you’ve provided me with enough to realise that any time I take to respond to your handle…

              Is not time well spent…so you’ll not be getting another one…

              • solkta

                Obviously you writing posts is not time well spent either. Maybe just take a break.

              • KJT

                According to stats, 1 out of any 3 or 5 people have a mental illness in their lifetime. We are not entirely sure, as, like all unfairly stigmatised people, they tend to hide it. Statistics show the mentally ill, that dont know what they are doing, are less likely to commit murder, than the “sane”.
                More likely to harm themselves, unfortunately.
                If you pick any group, then the chances are some have a mental illness. Correlation, not cause.
                Many more people are going to become mentally ill as a result of recent events.
                Are you going to tell them it makes them all potential mass murderers.
                Especially as the largest mass murders are being committed by, supposedly sane, Governments.

          • KJT 16.3.1.4.2

            Correlation is not causation.

            I suggest that the same factors which cause some people to become socially mal-adjusted, may also be a contributing factor to mental illness.

            However, the overwhelming majority of people who kill others, do not meet the definition of being mentally Ill, at the time.

            The statistics are clear. Mentally ill people are much more of a danger to themselves, than to others.

            • One Two 16.3.1.4.2.1

              Kjt…you’re not strong on subjects such as this…your comments in response to mine, indicate as much…

              You’ve failed to comprehend my response to DF…and jumped in with erroneous waffle…

              And you’ve misused and overly misused chlichè…as if it somehow alters the facts behind my response to DF…

              Exactly as you did last week…you wrote, bull.

              If it’s over your head…ask more questions…

              Not more. Bull.

              • KJT

                Mental illness is a subject I am much more familiar with, than I would like.

                Ascribing mass murder to “mental illness, is just stereotyping, and lazy.

                Just as lazy as saying terrorists are, insert your favorite out group.

                And. An avoidance of societal responsibility.

                So. You can fuck off too.

                • One Two

                  KJT, every human being walking this planet has shit happening to them, and around them which we’d likely prefer was not…but it’s life…

                  And some of those shit things motivate people to take on as much knowledge as possible and to learn about the shit…

                  A number of US mass shooters in recent memory were known to be on drugs which are used in the treatment of mental health conditions…you could look into it…there is no controversy surrounding that point…it’s very mainstream…

                  It is with absolute certainty, that mass killings are carried out by some who are mentally ill…100% fact…

                  What percentage of the total is neither here nor there in relation to my comment ( I was not taking that path) to DF…the point DF raised and which I was endorsing…is a statement of factual certainty…

                  A percentage of mass killers, have had, do have, and will have…mental health issues…

                  Not all of them…some of them…

                  Edit. As for your feeble stereotype comment attempting to label my words as h* speech…

                  I’d suggest you re read and re think that approach…because it is a disgraceful tactic…and it is firmly on you…that is your shit…

                  • KJT

                    Many people who have done some of the worlds greatest achievements, for humanity, have been mentally Ill, also.

                    Lazy stereotyping is what you are doing.

                    It is exactly what I said.

                    No different from racism, or any other form of prejudice.

                    Own that!

                    • One Two

                      Many people who have done some of the worlds greatest achievements, for humanity, have been mentally Ill, also.

                      You have to be joking, don’t you…surely…

                      The discussion is about mass killers…not too many of them could be said to have done great things for humanity…mentally ill or otherwise…eh kjt… stop twisting entire subjects to deflect from your bias induced mistake…

                      You’re still offloading your shit onto my comments, when I’ve asked you politely to desist…your predjudice laced commentary is an insult…

                      It betrays the positive actions you claim to perform.

                    • marty mars

                      Yep lazy stereotyping is true – very poor attempts at othering others by some – the opposite of what is needed now as the Mental Health Foundation has said.
                      KJT – keep up the good work mate – kia kaha.

                    • KJT []

                      Thanks Marty.
                      It is too easy to cop out by saying the “other do it”.
                      Much more confronting to accept these people are as much, us, as any other humans.

                    • One Two []

                      Which handle, in your opinion is doing the ‘lazy stereotyping’, marty…

                      If it’s my handle…take it up directly with me…

                      Because I’m actually in agreement with KJT…except in this instance…he’s got my comment twisted up for his own purposes…

                      I believe may not be deliberate…but due to his severe bias on the issue…and an assumption that others don’t share similar direct experiences with mental health..

                      Specificially, you should articulate why…and try not to draw the same failed conclusions which KJT has made…

                    • marty mars

                      I agree with KJT”s comments. If you do too, cool. But you seemed to support Dennis so… you tell me why the mental health foundation is wrong.

                      But truthfully I dont rate your opinion on this subject because I suspect you don’t rate psychological professionals and their ideas. True?

                      Anyway I’ll await your answers. And if im wrong of course I’ll apologise.

                    • One Two []

                      I agree with the premise of KJTs comment, except that it is out of aligmment with what I actually wrote…

                      My words could not have been more clear…note that I make no reference to ‘the mental health foundation’…their comments are irrelevant in context of my own…

                      MHF does not alter the facts of my comment…reread them if you like…or don’t…either way is ok…

                      Hence I do not agree with the content of kjts replies…because kjt is running in a totally different lane (not incorrect, but out of context to my comments)…

                      KjT has not addressed what I actually wrote…and neither have you…but you’ve avoided my question to you…and come back with one of your own…

                      Which I’ve answered above…

                      You suspect plenty of things, Marty…that’s fine…as it goes I’m neither here nor there on ‘the psych industry’…ironically there is little to no ‘real science’ involved…

                      All shades of the spectrum can be found within that ‘industry’…from wonderfully healing and humanistic …to barbaric and totalitarian medical experimentation…

                      And again…what I do or don’t think about what ‘profs’ have to say…makes zero difference to the stated facts of my comment…

                      One final time…don’t twist this…

                      Recent US mass killers were on psychotropic drugs used by ‘the industry’…

                      I made no statement to the killers mental health…only that some of them were on psych drugs…fact…

                      Trust that’s clear enough…if not…so be it for this specific sub thread…

                      Have a good one, marty…

                    • marty mars

                      “Recent US mass killers were on psychotropic drugs used by ‘the industry’…”

                      I googled your sentence. I liked this article – nice links, facts, evidence and thoughtfulness.

                      “If psychiatric medications were being taken, it might be more accurate to say that they weren’t working very well rather than assuming causality in terms of violence. ”

                      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/201506/mass-shootings-psychiatric-medications-and-rick-perry%3famp

                      Have a good one too

                  • KJT

                    Unthinking bald statements about mental illness, such as you and DF, and others, have made, without context are misleading, and a part of the stigmatization that the mentally Ill have to struggle with.

                    They are meaningless bs without a comparison.

                    As intellectually lazy and stupid as saying “Muslims are terrorists” without the acknowledgment that true terrorists, are a vanishingly small proportion of people in that faith.

                    My old friend, who had a large part in Aucklands motorway design, was on psychotropic drugs. He never hurt a fly. Unlike very many, “sane” people.

                    The problem teenagers, we know, often are confused, angry and not very good at confirming to societal norms.
                    I haven’t seen, one, who has any desire to hurt anyone, who hasn’t hurt them first.

                    Part of the problem, is how people who are naturally part of the “in group” for most situations, me included, find it hard to comprehend “othering”.
                    The damage, though, is all around us.

                    For one. The many millions of people on psychiatric drugs, who do not commit crimes, at all.

                    And of the mentally Ill who do go off the rails?
                    How many are a victim of, the very lack of empathy and understanding, which is a characteristic of serial killers?
                    And the many others that keep within the law, but still don’t care who they hurt.

                    We have addressed one of the causes of Christchurch. The too easy availability of weapons designed for mass murder.
                    The other, and much harder cause to address, is why, in our society, a child becomes someone who goes on to commit terrible crimes.
                    The answers are confronting. Because “they are us” also.

              • KJT

                I have enough fucking problems with getting mentally Ill kids past arseholes at WINZ and into jobs, without dick heads thinking they are inclined to serious violence.

                The stereotyping and mis- characterization of mentally ill people is “hate speech” in itself.

          • SPC 16.3.1.4.3

            Violence … drink and drug fuelled, anger issues, part of criminal activity (or silencing a witness), jealous and vengeful exes, crimes of passion, stressed out worker place of employment violence, terrorist action and of also some of the mentally ill. But pretty sure most of the murders committed have been initiated by government actors.

            I would go with lack of empathy for victims as the most common trait of the perps. (not all as some were not of sound mind when they did it)

            • KJT 16.3.1.4.3.1

              I agree that it is lack of empathy.

              It seems to be a common thread in many antisocial crimes.

              Including legal one.

              When someone’s definition of ethics is, is it legal.
              I.e. “Can I get away with it?” Then their moral compass is lacking already. Further crimes are just a matter of degree.

      • WILD KATIPO 16.3.2

        … ” You, who knows fuck all, presumes to know better than professionals or at least you dilute and distort based on what? Zip. You showed during the JLR saga that your understanding of this stuff is childlike at best and here you go again. By what arrogance do you think you can do this? Privilege and ego ”…

        ———————————

        Exactly the same charge I leveled at you in comment 13.2.1.1.1

        I would say… take a break , screamer ,…and learn to stop hiding behind those that forge ahead of you and then like a coward … piling on top of.

        Typical online troll / nerd stuff. Too gutless to even offer an opinion that might incur any criticisms.

        You remind me of this post Varsity prat cliche:

        Rick from The Young Ones Cliff Poem – YouTube

        • marty mars 16.3.2.1

          Another mirror post – just read them yourself and save some energy mate.

          • WILD KATIPO 16.3.2.1.1

            You lost your energy about three years back…all you ever did was clamor on the back of all the rest… never an original bone in your body.

            Go back to your political history study’s bud… you have a few tests to pass.

            Spit out all those revisionist answers your tutors wanted to read.

            Yeah you’ll do well in the post politically correct world mate.

            Hey!- tell me when they find a frog that turns into a horse and they discover the missing link , – I really want to be kept posted. I’ll probably be singing hymns for you by the time that they do. And maybe in 20 ,0000,000,000 years I can look forward to having two heads on my shoulders, eh? … geez wont that be hell for the Darwinist’s , eh? … a two headed wild katipo – one to sleep, one to post. Wow.

    • WeTheBleeple 16.4

      Terrorism, in this extremist context, is a pathological meme.

    • Gabby 16.5

      As fucking menaces franky, that’s how. Of course it’s not normal. So what? Lots of things aren’t normal.

  17. greywarshark 17

    Is Draco T Bastard still around? I don’t remember seeing his name lately.
    Last comment seemed 18 Jan 2019 on TRP’s Sroubek; Richie Hardcore Text Released.

    • Gabby 17.1

      Sambam is.

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        Not the sam(e) mental equipment. DTB is steeped in anti-capitalism and is therefore a reliable source for that POV. Which seems reasonable as an argument but application is unlikely.

  18. Sabine 18

    white vs brown terrorism

    he has got some good points here

    • WeTheBleeple 18.1

      Some good stats on the one-sided reporting in the article GWS posted. A colored terrorist gets far more media attention.

      • Sabine 18.1.1

        and is named again and again and again, never to be forgotten, while us white people can’t do enough to ‘forget’ those that do the same crimes but look like us.

        funny, innit? So do we not want to name him because he shames us? And we don’t like to be shamed? We like to be the default of good?

        • WeTheBleeple 18.1.1.1

          Well, I can’t recall the names of any of our most recent losers, none of the 9/11 guys, only Osama’s name has stuck.

          And I like that.

          You are using media’s inappropriate racist response to classifying terror events to justify your own name and shame campaign for this sack of shit. This behavior directly in contradiction to Jacinda’s wishes, which I guarantee are based on expert opinion, not self motivation and anger.

          • Sabine 18.1.1.1.1

            what i am saying is that we have to start paying attention rather then brushing it under the rug. Eventually the pile of dirt under the rug is so high that people start falling over it.

            i did that as a child, i hated eating meat, so i shoved it under the carpet.

            it would have been easier for me to simply refuse to eat the meat and leave it on the plate, that too would have left me green and blue and that is why i hid it. the end result of hiding the meat? ? One day my stepfather saw the pile of meat and gave me a beating that left me blue and green. Nothing gained, the punishment for not eating the meat was just delayed.
            And here we are doing the same.

        • solkta 18.1.1.2

          So do we not want to name him because he shames us?

          He doesn’t shame me. To do so would be to buy into his racist bullshit. No such thing as ‘race’ so no need to feel ‘race’ based shame.

          • Sabine 18.1.1.2.1

            well there is such a thing as race, there is such a thing as racial discrimination and yes, there is such a thing as shaming.

            and yes, maybe we should be ashamed that this guy who was born on third base full of privilege and freedom, is so full of hatred, coming form our society, and becomes a racially motivated mass murderer.
            .

            • solkta 18.1.1.2.1.1

              The old biological concept that humans can be divided into ‘races’ has been debunked for a very long time now. Enough of the nonsense.

              Yes there is still racial discrimination. That is people discriminating against other people based on the imagined idea that humans can be divided into ‘races’.

              No i can see no reason why i should feel shame for the actions of this person. None other than perhaps the fact that he is a member of the human race, but then i would need to feel shame for all IS etc has done as well.

              • RedLogix

                While I think you are right that there is no such thing as ‘race’ from a scientific perspective (or at least our current understanding of genetics makes it very hard to pin down) … when you place say a typical Chinese, Caucasian, Indian and Polynesian alongside each other, the visual differences are obvious to the average person. Trying to pretend that away isn’t helpful.

                It’s a bit like the fad among some radicals to pretend there is no such thing as biological gender; the average person just snorts hilariously.

                At the same time what genetics does usefully tell us is that within any one ‘racial group’ there is more variation than there is between them. And this applies not just to their DNA, but to their innate temperaments, their experiences and values. In this sense ‘races’ can be thought of as big fuzzy overlapping categories rather than the strict silos earlier generations imagined them to be.

                • arkie

                  It’s a bit like the fad among some radicals to pretend there is no such thing as biological gender; the average person just laughs hilariously.

                  There is no biological gender; the term is sex. Gender is separate from sex.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

                  At the same time what genetics does usefully tell us is that within anyone ‘racial group’ there is more variation than there is between them. And this applies not just to their DNA, but to their innate temperaments, their experiences and values. In this sense ‘races’ can be thought of as big fuzzy overlapping categories rather than the strict silos earlier generations imagined them to be.

                  These are what’s know as ethnicities. One can have multiple ethnicities, hence the fuzzy overlap.

                  https://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethnicity_vs_Race

                  • RedLogix

                    Gender is separate from sex.

                    Yes they may be technically separate concepts, but the correlation between the two in the real world is exceedingly high.

                    • arkie

                      Sure, but they are different things. And in the real world there are also people for whom sex and gender do not correlate and to conflate the terms invalidates them. It doesn’t take much effort to learn and understand the distinction.

                    • RedLogix

                      Fair enough, excuse my careless conflation of the two terms. I’m sure everyone here understood what I meant though. In fact I did type ‘biological sex’ but for some reason I changed it. Imperfect editing I guess.

                    • arkie

                      So you stand by the statement:

                      It’s a bit like the fad among some radicals to pretend there is no such thing as biological [sex]; the average person just laughs hilariously.

                      Could you please point to where anyone has claimed that biological sex doesn’t exist?

                      As far as I understand it these ‘radicals’ are merely asking people to learn the difference between sex and gender and that when they don’t always correlate and that is also valid.

                    • RedLogix

                      Unlike ethnicity where there are very broad overlaps between the categories, the correlation between sex and gender is exceedingly high. At least to a 99% level. So much so that for all practical everyday purposes one word is a proxy for the other.

                      In terms of biological sex there is a small group of people who for one reason or another are not unambiguously one binary sex or the other, often for some genetic reason.

                      And there are also small groups of people who are even more flexible around their gender behaviour. All well and good, there is a long, long history of this across many cultures, and this is nothing really new.

                      But the idea that they are completely separable, that all people can independently select whichever gender role they want, independent of their biological sex … is an extremely dubious one.

                      And certainly not one that would find any receptivity in most non-Western cultures I should add.

                    • arkie

                      Do you perhaps have links to back up your assertions?

                      And certainly not one that would find any receptivity in most non-Western cultures I should add.

                      Have you never heard of Fa’afafine or Kinnar or Two Spirit people?

                    • RedLogix

                      Well the briefest of searches yielded this:

                      An increasing number of feminists and other activists are advocating for the expansion or elimination of either-or gender norms, in order to allow for a full range of human behavior and expression.

                      https://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book-excerpts/health-article/separating-sex-and-gender/

                      It more or less covers off what I was saying above, but with more detail and elaboration.

                      Have you never heard of Fa’afafine or Kinnar or Two Spirit people?

                      Well that was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote “All well and good, there is a long, long history of this across many cultures, and this is nothing really new.”

                    • McFlock

                      The position that people select their gender role presupposes choice.

                      If one were to presuppose no choice, that such announcements are demands for recognition of the gender role thrust upon them, then the discussion changes dramatically.

                      It’s a bit like the bullshit argument that people choose to be gay. People usually choose to try to conform, to not be singled out for ostracism, abuse, or even murder. The suggestion that most gay or transgender people actively choose that risk package would surely be an absurdity to most people in that community.

                    • arkie

                      @ Red

                      Your link backs up what I have said; that gender and sex are distinct.
                      It doesn’t say that ‘radicals’ pretend there’s no such thing as gender or sex. You have created this strawperson.

                      After apologising for conflating sex and gender you said:

                      So much so that for all practical everyday purposes one word is a proxy for the other.

                      Except that they’re not. If you want to avoid invalidating people then you should stop pretending that they mean the same thing. It’s not hard to understand, empathise and use correct terms. McFlock’s comment explains why your language of ‘choice’ is inappropriate.

                    • RedLogix

                      @arkie

                      At no point did I pretend that sex and gender were the same thing. You have pedantically jumped on a careless choice of word I made and inflated it into a silly point scoring exercise.

                      I then posted a clear comment outlining my understanding of sex and gender and what their difference was. Not good enough for you and you demanded a link.I provided one that confirmed and enlarged on my understanding.

                      It also critically included the claim that An increasing number of feminists and other activists are advocating for the expansion or elimination of either-or gender norms, which is the same as my original assertion. Not carefully “the elimination of gender norms”, not quite the same words as I used “no such thing as biological gender”, but close. (If I had simply dropped the word biological then I would have been correct.)

                      I then went on to clarify and expand, pointing out that the implication of this is that sex and gender would have to be separable and independent of each other, and this an extremely dubious claim.

                      McFlock’s helpful contribution should have settled the matter, because he is perfectly correct. If gender roles can be ‘chosen’ then the implication is that, for instance, homosexuality is a ‘choice’. And of course that is a proposition the gay community would laugh you out of court for. Indeed they fought for decades to establish the exact opposite.

                    • McFlock

                      Just to be completely clear, people not choosing to be trans means that coming out as a trans person should be the same as coming out as having a queer sexuality: people should deal with it, not act as if they have a right to know the particulars, and just generally accept that the person is telling the truth. Which in the case of gender means not pretending to know which bathroom someone should be going into. That’s just rude.

                • solkta

                  So people who’s ancestors come from the same general areas of the planet have some general similarity of appearance, so what? That doesn’t mean that i should feel that i am in the same group as this murderer or anybody else because my skin is the same colour.

                • Poission

                  Stephen jaY Gould in his essay Human Equality sums up as such.

                  I have three mottoes,short in statement but long in implication.The first,the epitome of of puntuated equilibrium,reminds us that gradual change is not the only reality in evolution;other things count as well stasis isdata.The second confutes the bias of progress and affirms that evolution is not an inevitable sequence of ascent”mammals evolved at the same time as dinosaurs”The third is the theme of this essay,afundamental statement of human variaiton.Say it five times before breakfast tomorrow,more important,understand it as the centre of a network of implication”Human equality is a contingent fact of history”

        • greywarshark 18.1.1.3

          I think the point limiting his exposure and name, is because we do not see it as being good for society’s sake. We are applying an overview looking not only at this man’s crime but also at the audience of all the potential callous shitheads in the background, of which there are many.

          They find satisfaction at a knuckledragging level, of getting publicity fand becoming famous for being a goon prepared to hurt others and take risk themselves. So the more exciting and advertised and promoted this guy is, the more points he scores on the league table. And if he died for some reason, he would be a martyr.

          The more he is elevated in the news, and then gets on the internet for ever, the more there is a tale to tell their poor little children, if they have any, who will grow up screwed like their parents, and so the cycle would go on. Let’s not even start that story.

          • Sabine 18.1.1.3.1

            his audience has downloaded the video when he life streamed it. He already is a hero in their eyes.
            to late if you think you can prevent them from seeing it, there are currently millions of copies in diverse versions floating about and downloaded https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/tech-consortium-flags-800-versions-new-zealand-attack-video/

            this is not elevation in the news. this is talking about a symptom of a disease that is getting rather violent and deadly.

            As i said, i don’t want to hear about his grievances, his family, his upbringing and shit like that, but i do believe that we need to discuss the fact that over the last few years young white men have taking to killing others in acts of terrorism.

            what in essence you are talking about is what happened in East Germany. the Third Reich was not discussed, the holocaust was not discussed, the actions of hte wehrmacht was not discussed, and funnily enough the largest segment of Neo Nazis in Germany are form East Germany. Go figure? Maybe they should have discussed it?

            • RedLogix 18.1.1.3.1.1

              we need to discuss the fact that over the last few years young white men have taking to killing others in acts of terrorism.

              And then there was a time when it was young left wing radicals talking each other into acts of terrorism:

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism

              https://listverse.com/2016/10/01/10-left-wing-terrorist-organizations-from-around-the-world/

              https://fas.org/irp/world/para/left.pdf

              Thankfully these groups have been very much on the wane the past decade, while I agree they’ve been replaced by right wing groups. One place to start the discussion would be to consider the possible reasons for such a shift.

              • Mark

                The difference between the Left wing groups and the far right groups is the left wing groups are far less likely to resort to indiscriminate slaughter.

                The left wing groups may assassinate a businessman or a politician and attack security forces and certainly civilians will on occasion be collateral damage (such as Mandela and the ANC), but rarely will they target and slaughter civilians going about their everyday lives, let alone children.

                Extreme islamist groups and neo-nazi nutjobs are different, two sides of the same coin – they deliberately go out to kill ordinary people almost as a matter of course

                • RedLogix

                  Yes my third link from FAS is a bit dated (2001) but contains some interesting comparisons between the known left and right wing groups up to that time. (p9)

                  Nonetheless as motivated left wingers we might naturally have some inkling of why individuals might resort to left wing terrorism. Hell when the Urewera group was raided, half the crowd here climbed on defending them. So we shouldn’t have too much trouble getting a sense of why some people go over the edge into political violence.

                  (As it happened there were so many people involved in the Urewera group that there was almost nil chance they’d ever get organised enough to kill some snags for the barbie, much less the PM. But regardless of the controversy there is no question, arms were present and there was at least some ill-defined intention to use them.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Zealand_police_raids)

                  • Mark

                    So we shouldn’t have too much trouble getting a sense of why some people go over the edge into political violence.

                    That’s true, but even most of the radical leftists we know would not bomb a train full of innocent civilians nor carry out a massacre of folk at worship. Assassinate a cop or a businessman or a politician perhaps, kill rival members of rival groups, but not shoot down 3 year olds running towards them. The nature of left wing violence on average is different from that of neo nazis and religious nutjobs

                    Tame Iti is a universe away from the likes of the Christchurch shooter in any sense of the word, in morality, ethics, and the nature of his cause is deserving of some sympathy. There is nothing murderous or malign in Tame Iti. And groups like the IRA are nothing like ISIS or these fascist and ethnic supremacist groups (goes back a long way – the actions of the Croatian and Ukrainian fascists during WWII were utterly horrific —sawing peoples heads off, killing babies etc)

                    Yet the authorities came down hard on the Tuhoe, but let these skinheads and far right nutjobs go practically unobserved – even though their propensity for violence has been well demonstrated – including the murder and beheading of a korean backpacker a decade ago. Sure Tarrant may not have been directly linked to the local groups, but he was of the same nature and ilk and should have came up on the radar of the authorities a lot earlier. The authorities seemed to have very racialised views of who was likely and not likely to be a terrorist.

      • WeTheBleeple 18.2.1

        That’s a piece of hate speech wrapped as an article – did you do that on purpose?

        “The new brand of Islamic terror only needs one thing… Muslims.”

        I’ll correct it for the fucko

        “The new brand of terror only needs one thing… terrorists.”

        Charmed I’m not.

  19. ”Let you who have not sinned cast the first stone !!! ”

    Is this what you want you pit of vipers ?!!?

    ”Who warned you of the wrath to come? ”….

    ———————————————

    ExecutedToday.com » wanda klaff
    http://www.executedtoday.com/tag/wanda-klaff/

    http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Stutthof_hanging_2.jpg

    http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Stutthof_hanging_1.jpg

    http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Stutthof_hanging_3.jpg

    ————————————-

    New International Version

    ”But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

  20. joe90 20

    Next up, Nambia.

    • Sabine 20.1

      oh he ‘gives’ now 🙂

      how much is he gonna charge brazil to use his mercenary army?

    • Gabby 20.2

      Then when Venezuela ‘attacks Brazil without provocation’ yankistan can swing into action to protect buddy Bolso.

  21. Rosemary McDonald 21

    At some more appropriate time this issue commands serious discussion.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/385165/firefighters-want-law-change-to-to-ease-acc-cancer-battles

    Firefighters….”…. had a 102 percent greater risk of testicular cancer, non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma 51 percent greater risk, malignant melanoma 32 percent greater risk, brain cancer 32 percent greater risk,”

    Now these are significant figures and cannot be ignored. Firefighters suffering from these diseases often don’t even know they can actually claim ACC cover as workplace injuries.

    And it’s not as if ACC don’t recognise some cancers as being work related…http://hazelarmstronglaw.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Occupational-causes-of-malignant-neoplasms-of-lymphatic-and-haematopoietic-tissue.pdf…and when that document was produced by ACC the writers were asking why there were not more claims upon diagnosis.

    “Given the estimates of risk attributable to occupational exposures, it is likely that between 60 and 70 incident cases of leukaemia and NHL per annum are due to work. It has also been estimated that each year in New Zealand 28 deaths from NHL and 30 from leukaemia are attributable to occupational exposures(5). Unless providers ask questions about occupational exposure when presented with this group of malignancies, the number of claims that are submitted and those that may then warrant entitlements will be small. ACC has received approximately 11 cases since 1998, which highlights the possible extent of under-diagnosis of the occupational origins of these diseases. ”

    Could very well be that medical professionals have been scared off from pointing the finger of blame as some major producers of harmful chemicals are also in the business of curing cancers. More irony. Sigh.

    Our constipated system of ‘ACC or MOH’, ‘Win or Lose’ has come to the end of it’s natural life and needs a complete overhaul.

    • Sabine 21.1

      i asked my partner what were to happen if he were injured as a fire fighter, he had absolutely no idea.

      this was after the big plastic fire a few years back in west auckland. they all went there, had no idea what they were dealing with, and several got really sick, nausea, vomiting and such for a few days. Of course they were all ‘fine’. but still.

  22. I feel love 22

    Just saw another right wing dick has retracted a column, about public pools being closed for a few hours so Muslim women can swim in private. What a pathetic mealy thing to write about! It’s good he’s apologised of course but really?

  23. greywarshark 23

    NZ wanting to profit from other countries workers but not in a fair and honourable way. Poor people are encouraged to come here on the basis they can do better than home. They have to pay costs along the way, travel etc. Here is a Chinese man who missed his flight and had travel costs going home because Immigration NZ made an error. Now they say they won’t compensate him. This is bad, you callous government officials, you are working for this country and we want to do things right, not pay you to work to rule – your own.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/385157/immigration-new-zealand-wrongly-cancels-mans-visa-stranding-him

  24. joe90 24

    In best Windsor Davies lilt – “Oh dear, how sad, never mind

    .

    Philip Neville Arps, 44, had his application for bail declined when he appeared in the Christchurch District Court today.

    He was remanded in custody until his next appearance on April 15.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214672

  25. joe90 25

    May and co seem to have absolutely no idea about what they’re doing or how to proceed.

  26. Dennis Frank 26

    Marxist analysis of Tarrant’s manifesto: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/03/20/the-anzac-legacy-is-white-supremacy/

    The quote from the shooter about how he felt looking at all the WWI crosses stretching to the horizon, and how his feeling relates to his motivation, is quite revealing.

    The Bosphorus as boundary is an interesting concept but my reading of history suggests it has no basis. Turkey’s leader issuing warnings to NZ & Australia is noteworthy though: folks will have to work harder at inclusion, I suspect…

    • Gabby 26.1

      It suggests to me that shatpant has shit for brains franky. What say you?

      • Dennis Frank 26.1.1

        Obviously so, right from the start. I still look forward to whatever verdict court psychiatrists might render – though I assume they won’t be called to deliver a diagnosis unless prosecution or defense request it.

        • SPC 26.1.1.1

          I thought he was assessed as fit to stand trial?. Nope just the opinon of his former court appointed lawyer.

          He is supposedly acting in his own defence.

          • Dennis Frank 26.1.1.1.1

            As Breivik did, I seem to recall. Not that it made any difference to the result. So we can expect a similar outcome here. I wonder how much of his rationale/ justification will be allowed to be reported in our media. Perhaps the court will decide to use the hate-speech law to disallow it.

        • solkta 26.1.1.2

          It reveals that he is an idiot not that he was suffering from psychosis at the time of the murders.

          Oh, and psychiatrists give a diagnosis, courts come to verdicts.

    • solkta 26.2

      Quite revealing that he is an idiot as well as a Nazi.

      The article says that he says that he was traveling through France when he saw the crosses. But strangely he no go kill German immigrants.

    • WeTheBleeple 26.3

      I suggest you stop disseminating poison as you are obviously not comprehending how ignorant you are (still) being. You are not qualified to psychoanalyze the Wiggles.

      • Dennis Frank 26.3.1

        Probably why I haven’t psychoanalyzed them, eh? Good day gardening? And few folks nowadays regard marxist analysis as akin to poison. You could even be a minority of one.

        • solkta 26.3.1.1

          So where dose it say in the article that he was suffering from psychosis?

          • Gabby 26.3.1.1.1

            You need to praxis reading between the lines solky. Your brain mightn’t be massively enough though, quite frankyly.

        • WeTheBleeple 26.3.1.2

          You know exactly what I’m saying but you can’t talk straight yourself.

          The material comes from a variety of sources from within the document written by a psycho who wants it discussed and disseminated.

          And that is exactly what you are doing, purposefully now as you’ve been called on it several times.

          Moderators – does Jacinda’s request hold no weight here? Just asking.

          I know you get offended by language NotsoFrank so I’ve censored myself for your dainty terrorist fanboy eyes.

          You phuknuckledragging monobollockal pseudointellectual poser.

          • Dennis Frank 26.3.1.2.1

            Looks like you’re intent on joining the long list of complainers about hate speech who are too lazy to cite the actual words they believe are breaking the law. Zat so? Since I didn’t actually provide you with any to cite! 🙄

        • greywarshark 26.3.1.3

          Couldn’t that be solkta Wtb is replying to?

    • Skunk Weed 26.4

      Don’t worry Winnie is going over there to convince Ergodan our security forces and police are up to speed ?

      Yeah right too busy busting Green Angels and Issuing Traffic Tickets ?

  27. WeTheBleeple 27

    Here’s another article you’d enjoy defending Spanky. Some nameless writer blithering on about Eggboy being a problem while introducing the article with a foul joke, that he says (it is definitely a man) is about principle…

    The joke could have been reworded a number of ways.

    Preening themselves. Eggs are not cricket aye wot! Cheap or expensive whore luvvy? Principle!

    Aaaand – on cue – Frank’s a victim again.

  28. Dennis Frank 28

    Henry Cooke on Stuff reports on the latest from the Barclay saga: “Following a joint application from Stuff, TVNZ, and RNZ the non-publication order was lifted on Wednesday.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/111058836/kiwibuild-chief-failed-to-get-job-back-in-december-amid-allegation-of-serious-misconduct

    Five formal complaints were enough to take Barclay out of his position as head of Kiwibuild. Makes Twyford look better, eh?

  29. greywarshark 29

    Tried to get imperatorfish but whois or something intervened.

    http://verifymywhois.com/aplus_v1.html

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