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Open mike 20/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 20th, 2019 - 169 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

169 comments on “Open mike 20/05/2019 ”

  1. millsy 1


    Is Scott Morrison a creationist? A google search doesnt seem to give up that info. Do we really want someone who belives that a fictional character (let's face it, God is a fictional character) waved a magic wand to create this world 6000 years ago in charge of a country?

    In addition, it is kinda depressing to see the highly paid workers in the coal, oil, gas and construction sectors throw their lower paid brothers and sisters in the service, retail and hospitality sectors under a bus by voting away their penalty rates for good, and probably voting for futher wage cuts as well. Sad really.

    • Sam 1.1

      How about quit trying to manipulate liberal / national policy by constructing from the bottom up, internally incoherent gibberish designed to demonstrate how woke you are, and address your own / our own shitty woke policies and fix that up.

    • Wayne 1.2

      For all I know, Morrison may be a creationist.

      I recall a discussion with a fellow MP (in National) who told me he was a creationist. I had very open conversations with colleagues. I asked him how that affected his policy decisions. He said; " In Wellington, I have a Wellingtonian approach to policy. In my personal life I have my beliefs."

      In my experience, this approach is quite common among those who have strong religious views and who are also in politics in a major party. They don't only exist in National. Traditionally some are in Labour. There are none in the Greens and probably none were in ACT.

      The areas where their religious views does affect their political views is conscience issues. If you know a person is a religious conservative, you also know their views on euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage, drinking age, cannabis, shop trading hours, casinos.

      But outside those things you don't. They can be big social spenders or small social spenders, they can be free market or they can be market interventionists.

      • Sabine 1.2.1

        as we can currently see this approach worked well in the United States were creationism is thought more in schools then actuall science and where god put babies in the bellies of little girls – thus no abortion.

        Bill English comes to mind, so godly, so very very godly especially when it comes to the decision that women make about their bodies and reproductive rigths, but then issue defrauding (we would call it theft for any person not Bill English) the goverment to the tune of 40 odd grand for houses that he may or may not live in cause 'he did not know' – even so he never did anything else in his whole working life then life of the government tit.

        but i guess so as long as they are National its all good. right?

      • Robert Guyton 1.2.2

        " If you know a person is a religious conservative, you also know their views on euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage, drinking age, cannabis, shop trading hours, casinos."

        Aren't politicians in Government bound to be open-minded and free of prejudice, in the way local body politicians are, Wayne? The training local body politicians regularly undergo, Making Good Decisions, requires a suspension of bias when it comes to making decisions on behalf of the ratepayers. To say that the views of politicians who are religious conservatives is fixed and can be listed, as you have done, is…disturbing.

        • Wayne


          The things I noted are all regarded as conscience issues. It should not surprise anyone that religious conservatives would vote on these things in a very specific way. I never saw any religious conservative, no matter what their party, who didn't vote in an entirely predictable way on these issues.

          In the major parties, once these items were settled by a vote, there was never any further agitation by religious conservatives to change the outcome. They just accepted it. Neither did they ever promote their views outside a specific conscience vote, that is they didn't drive Members Bills on these issues. They would never get consent from their colleagues to do so, and it was never pushed, even sotto voce.

          However, in a party where these things were more central, there would be continuing agitation. But such a party would be 5% or less of there parliament and couldn't force a major party to change it views on these issues. What a minor party could do is promote Members bills on these issues. Then others would vote according to conscience.

          • Sabine

            Have you followed the US over the last three decades or so?

            Do you believe that 'it' could not happen here, or are you so cynical that the only thing that matters is hte Party and the country and those that are against the honestly held religious believes of politicians be damned?

            And do you really believe that that stale milk toast covered in Margarine has any any chance to keep anything together when religious zealots are a lot more attractive to a certain type of voter then the default National they vote now for lack of choices?

            Because at the moment, religious minded people may vote for National as the default party – cause, godly Bill English, godly Alfred Ngaro, goldy Milktoast, – and yes all of these men use their religion and their religious conviction to appeal to their voters more then actual policy that would help the poor, feed the hungry, house the homeless and welcome the stranger to their house.

            Do you really thing that the current lot that is running the National party has any chance against some cynical god botherers? Because i don't think so, and i don't think so because i can look at other countries and see what is happening in real time rather then your make believe fantasy world in which the National Party is a force for good rather then just an assembly of men and women happy to be bought at the right price by anyone who would keep them on the government tit – and eventually to a board of a company that they then can help bankrupt.

            • Sam

              It’s more interesting that the fringies are falling out of favour with the major parties. So any true radical will see this as an opportunity to unite.

              • Sabine

                Alfred Ngaro has a choice, be a list MP or be head honcho.

                What pays better?

                • Sam

                  Well "what pays better?" Well it's Braitbart and the Israel lobby that pays better but they've fallen out of favour with the National Party image. To much sin.

                  • Shadrach

                    It's 'Breitbart'.

                    And the lobby who pay particularly well are the Palestinian Authority. If you're the family of a terrorist that is.

                    • Sam

                      The only way that your comment makes sense is if the National Party minders are desperate for coalition partners.

                    • Shadrach

                      My comment had nothing to do with coalition partners. Yet it still makes sense. Don't wind yourself up too much trying to understand.

            • Wayne


              New Zealand is much less interested in conservative religious/moral issues than the United States. I would say vastly less so. So no real risk of what you are suggesting.

              This is reflected in the major parties. For instance we have had two conservative catholic prime ministers in the last 30 years. Neither of them used their positions to promote those views. The only way their views on such matters were manifested was through their conscience votes.

              As I have already said, conscience issues are essentially sectioned off from broader public policy.

              An explicitly religious party would be able to get more conscience votes because they most frequently come from Members Bills, and such a party would promote such Bills. However, they would most likely fail in the wider parliament.

              Such a party could not force National MP's to vote for these Bills. There is a strong group of socially liberal National MP's (and "middle of the road" MP's) who would not permit that.

              However I imagine a religiously based party would be very keen on partnership schools, and faith based welfare programmes. A significant number of conservative Pacific Island communities would want to establish schools with a strong faith based approach, but still teaching the required curriculum. Similar to Catholic integrated schools.

              The partnership school approach would make that affordable. Since many Pacific Island communities do not have substantial wealth, they typically cannot afford the high capital costs of establishing a school in the way the traditional churches have done. Partnership school would provide the option.

              • Sabine

                you don't have the slightest idea, do you?

                Such a party could very well make National into a minor party. 🙂 as one could argue that Labour is a 'minor party albeit the largest one among the minor parties. Also see the republican party in the US. it took them a few years, but they – the tea party / evangelic right managed to take over the party. I beg you to point to one sane republican politician who currently would protect a womens right to choose, not threaten her with a criminal offense for having an abortion (irrespective the reason), who did not at some stage favor to electrocute or otherwise train the gays into behaving like a heterosexual, believes that allowing gays to marry is akin bestiality and such. Cause they all said that, enabled it, supported it.

                And your current margarine covered milk toast will do exactly that if it means to keep his paycheck, as sitting in parliament is literally the easiest job in the country. You have to achieve nothing and still get paid and perks for life.

                The reason many pacific islander don't have wealth is racism (yo National), low wages (yo National), and religion (tithing, no abortion, women submit joyfully to your husband/father, large families a blessing from god etc)

                Partnership? The last time National went into partnership with an ethnic party – Maori Party they killed them. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you talk about, but then, you already received your easy wages and now live of your life long government issued tax payer funded perks, so you would be literally the last person to suffer if my scenario would come true rather then your pie in the sky fantasy scenario.

                And as the 9 years under national have shown, your party will fuck up given half a chance – so as long as they get to bank, and bank they did.

                • Wayne


                  It is clear from numerous MMP elections, there is around about 4 to 5% conservative christian vote. It comes from across the political spectrum. In fact, arguably more from Labour than National because when the conservative christian vote is high, Labour is low.

                  Conservative christian vote is no danger to National. Very few National voters are conservative christian, and certainly not to the extent that it is the main determinant of how a person votes. For instance neither of the conservative catholic PM's would have been remotely interested in a conservative christian party. It would be way too narrow for them.

                  The Maori Party almost survived the last election. It would have had two MP's, but for Tamiti Coffey who beat Te Uroroa Flavell by about 1500 votes. Labour was determined to kill the Maori Party. They succeeded.

          • Robert Guyton

            Hi Wayne. I understand your meaning. You wrote:

            "I never saw any religious conservative, no matter what their party, who didn't vote in an entirely predictable way on these issues."

            I've found that: "I never saw any farmer-conservative who didn't vote in an entirely predictable way on environmental issues.

            • bwaghorn

              We need the farmer equivalent word for Godwins law .

              • Sabine

                he said 'farmer – conservative'

                that does not include 'environmentally fair, respectful, inovative, and socially minded farmer' .

                you know like the dude that has 8 children living of 'working for family' tax payer funded subsidy while holding a sign that says "She's a pretty communist'. What 'godwin type' word would love for that guy? or the guys that killed their cattle with a preventable diseases by flaunting the laws and transporting them willy nilly all over the greenery for profits shits n giggles and now need government tax payer funded hand out to make up for the thousands of dead cows so they then in a few years time can repeat the exact same shit?

          • mauī

            That's reassuring we have your word on that…

            I'm sure the party religious conservatives never "agitated" on things like wiping historical crimes for homosexuality. You know it only took until 2018 for that to finally happen.

          • Kevin

            Are MP's their to represent their constituents or themselves?

      • Sacha 1.2.3

        Act would have to be the ultimate faith-based party.

      • Bearded Git 1.2.4

        @ Wayne

        "this approach is quite common among those who have strong religious views"

        Yes but that doesn’t justify holding this view. They are complete nutters to believe this Wayne. It is bollocks. Do you want a nutter running the country?

        • Gabby

          How do muslim countries manage to function gitty?

          • Sabine

            well are you talking about Saudi Arabia? Quatar? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Iran? Iraq? Algeria? Malaysia? UAE? Marocco? Indonesia? Epypt? Turkey? or any of the others that are too numerous to mention?

            They all do have a few things in common.

            Very little freedom unless you are the default best human being – a man.

            Very little reproductive choices unless you are the default best human being – a man

            Very little government representation unless you are the default best human being – a man

            Very little education for all (i would exclude the Asian muslim countries as they generally have a good grip on education for all) unless of course you are a male

            Very little career option for all, unless you are a male. Then of course you must work cause someone has to feed the little dears women will bear if they have no access to reproductive choice but has to put out on demand in order to earn her dinner. (Women of course also work, but often times only within the family and often times they don't get to keep their pay – very much like it was in our western society until having bank accounts in ones own name became the norm in the late seventies of the last century – 1970 not 1870)

            Marriage at a very early age – unless your family is of a certain income aka not poor, or you are a male, then you deserve a pre-teen or several to keep your house and birth you lots of manly children.

            Healthcare in certain countries for women does not exist – if she dies in childbirth its gods will.

            So you could posit that they indeed manage, and i would posit that the US would also manage under a theocracy, but i would also posit that it would be mainly the women, children, homosexuals, trans, anyone not identifying as a heterosexual, atheist, non Christian that would not manage.

            But i understand, details, pesky pesky details. Lucky us right, cause it could never ever happen here.

            I would also like to point out that these are stereo types that while all true – not always apply to all countries and certainly don't apply to all people that live in these countries but are bound by the rules.

            I for one am very much aware of my privilege and luck – yes luck – to have been born a white girl into a white country at a time or relative enlightenment. If i would have been born into Afghanistan/Bangladesh/Anatolia/Saudi Arabia/Eqypt/Mali/Somalia/Indonesia by now i would have a good chance of being dead. I could have died in the wedding night due to internal injuries/bleeding after fulfilling my martial duties, or died in childbirth, or died of starvation as a widow, or died in a bombing by russia (afghanistan) and then the us, or died being stoned by the taliban/saudi arabia/islamic state for 'crimes against god and such' for trying to survive with my children as a widow by prostituting myself, or for refusing to marry some bloke old enough to by my grandfather.

            So yeah, they manage, like we manage, but a lot of that managing comes at the cost of keeping women out of public life, and of denying sexual right and freedom men and women alike, and to chop of hands and legs and whippings in public space. But in saying that Europe survived and they burned women alive at the stake. So its all in good fun, so as long as we manage?

        • Stuart Munro.

          If it would lower his taxes half a point, Wayne would vote for Ted Bundy.

          • OnceWasTim

            I think it'd take just a smidgeon more than lowering his taxes half a point. If you could throw in a gig or two in the media as a talking head to make sure he remains relevant – that'd be good

      • Bruce 1.2.5

        Why would christens be against cannabis


    • Bewildered 1.3

      They should be happy that the stuff that come out of the ground has trickled through to all wages in Au, hence the highest wage costs in the world

    • Gabby 1.4


      Why be surprised that the ockies got the leader they deserve?

    • AB 1.5

      Perhaps Australia is a just joke country that's too far gone to worry about? Maybe all we can do is try to avoid unworthy feelings of schadenfreude as they burn up over the next 40 years, while trying to make ourselves more resilient.

      Though there's a depressing takeaway about the continuing ability of private money-power (Rupert Murdoch & Clive Palmer) to sway elections. You can't have a proper democracy until private money-power is curbed. Which might lead some people to conclude that democratic means of curbing it are unavailable, and other methods must be employed. And that is a particularly worrisome conclusion.

      • Wensleydale 1.5.1

        There's not much point in worrying about Australia. Climate change means the entire country will likely spontaneously combust in the very near future. I keep telling my sisters they should probably move before it's too late.

    • Rapunzel 1.6

      And while everyine would like to see nurses and teachers pay rates really reflect their input few employees today have the same level of long term job security that goes with those positions.

      Both sectors had very little to say and curbed their demands for nine years or so years but now expect magic wand to be whipped out to meet their demands despite the knowledge that housing and the health and welfare of a good number of their pupils is very important to their ability to learn.

      NZ deserves to be governed with the "long game" in mind. Funnily I doubt that very many will be willing to sacrifice the balance that is returning to NZers lives and will risk the return of another National Party govt any time soon. They show the same self-interest that led to the "catch-up" being required across many issues and no concern for NZ nothing has changed there, something, if it is not fully realised now, that a lot of NZers will reflect on with their choices next election.

      • Sabine 1.6.1

        NZ deserves to be governed with the "long game" in mind.

        so well said it needed to be repeated.

        sadly we are governed by the interest of some to be re-elected.

        • Rapunzel

          Yes "some" solely obsessed with being elected, that has ever been the case but the intentions after that matter the most. I see merit in righting the ship and keeping the passengers on board before deciding how the deck chairs arranged to get the best outcome for all.

          • Sabine

            i think sadly, that the left needs to be as radical as the right. Or let me put it this way, if we are not radical, demanding radical solutions everyone is drowning as the whole in the ships bottom is never gonna get fixed. Currently we are all standing in a line bucketing the water out while some of our precious dears are in the captains lodging arguing of whom should get in the one life boat that is on the ship.

            We are living in extreme times – environmentally its gonna get worse not better – and we have no plan but a bunch of over paid suits pretending that they can go back to a past that did not exist.

            In the meantime we scold kids for taking of fridays.

            • Rapunzel

              I'm not scolding kids for taking off Fridays that's for sure, I'm hoping that that will coax some of their "elders" to think hard about how they can be more open to what needs to be done. Currently it is a hard-sell with some people despite it being for a better future, why that is bedevils me and commonsense. In some ways that is possibly how it needs to be to change direction permanently instead of duck-shoving everything back to "government" and expecting overnight miracles. If that is the way it is temporarily it is better than nine more years of willingly damaging lives via divide and rule.

              • Sabine

                i am not talking about you, but the ones in our media that are so concerned with children taking off school to go on a strike.

                also i would like to point to the orange shitshow in the united states that is currently pissing all over the country because the democrats did neither show spine nor guts

  2. Sanctuary 2

    Simon Bridges was on natrrad this morning, it sounds like the National party is gearing up to go full culture war next election.

    It is dispiriting to see the USA exporting it's ideological poison of far right culture wars.

    Still, it is good to know a vote for National will be a vote for the religious extremism of whatever fundy party National tries to cuddle up to.

    • Dennis Frank 2.1

      You may need to be more specific. On the AM show he definitely ruled out mandating Ngaro's christian revival attempt. Said they would stand a Nat candidate in Botany next year and expect to win there. Since the Nats got 60% there last time, he's right – unless Ngaro stands there for the christians. That could create a three-way split.

      Anyway, if your culture war thesis was correct, Bridges would be supporting the artificial construction of a support partner for the Nats, huh?

      • Incognito 2.1.1

        A three-way split between the Nat Electorate Candidate (not on the List, of course, unlike Paul Goldsmith in Epsom), Ngaro, and JLR?

        • Dennis Frank

          It would maximise the prospects of JLR, although if Labour fronts with a good candidate a four-way split seems feasible (with rough parity) but tribalism will always give the Nats the edge on the basis of 60% last time.

      • Sanctuary 2.1.2

        Who are you, Pete George?

        Bridges spent the whole interview speaking out of sides of his mouth but it is crystal clear that National is planning a dishonest scare campaign based on culture war issues, from saying they support evidence based drug reform whilst pandering to the Family Fist crowd to saying they support conscience votes on issue like abortion whilst offering mealy mouthed equivocation on the establishment of a religious extremist party to help them game MMP.

        • Dennis Frank

          Seems a reasonable apprehension, but it would be equally reasonable to frame it as simply appealing appealing to the biases of their voter base, wouldn't it?

          Anyway, there's an obvious danger for them if they do decide to try the culture war strategy: alienating centrists. So I see it as self-defeating, short-sighted.

          • Sanctuary

            Across the Tasman, the Liberals won by refusing to have a detailed manifesto, engaging is dishonest representations of selected opponents policies and running a culture wars by proxy campaign in Queensland and in the Murdoch press.

            The lesson National will take from that is that they can wage a proxy culture war by a bunch of extremists – hence this Christian party – and that they should double down on the dishonest culutre war attacks via their media proxies such as Mike Hosking and via the likes of Paula "Gummi Bears" Bennett.

            It is an open question if this approach will succeed, especially given how ill-equipped our ideological bankrupt and intellectually cowardly Labour would be to deal with such an assault.

            • marty mars

              + 1 yep and they will utilize their sub-groups to hate on people, to create strife, issues – oh we need strong gnat govt to fix these 'issues' blah blah blah

              I think the lazer of Jacinda will vapourise them – but the battery life isn't infinity and others are going to have to step up. They are beginning to – the bishop got dealt to, paula benefit is being dealt to, and so on – be good to save winnie for the mega hit counterattack or defense imo

        • Sabine

          i have said before and i will say it again,

          if National wants to win they will run on decriminalizing or tolerating weed as in Holland or based on the system of the US. – i know a few non – voters that will vote for that and they are old, middle aged and young, who literally have no reason to vote for either party other then civic mindedness.

          And its nobodies fault but that of the coalition. Every now and then one has to take a risk, and on this issue they actually could.

          the rest is business as usual for National. No ideas but pondering to the lowest common denominator and bigotry.

      • Sabine 2.1.3

        Did you watch the rise of the Tea Party in the US?

        Do you understand that the Tea Party has become the Republican Party?

        And do you understand that the only Party really in danger of the rise of the christo fascist are those on the right? As they – in order to keep their constituancy need to move ever more right in order to stay electable to the God freaks on the right?

        And yes, God Freaks, not godly, not christian, cause anyone who – as in the states, can not allow gun control cause 'fredom and personal choice' but has no issues condeming little girls to give birth to their own aunties/uncles/brothers/sistes/cuzzies is not a christian or a person of faith, but rather a cynical being who literally would offer little girls as a sacrament to advance their very own agenda.

        And I have personally met Alfred Ngaro, a man who will not introduce himself when he comes to the shop of a women, who will not say anything other then 'Can i speak to your husband'. WTF? Mr. , I don't have a husband. It was a funny scene, where it no so fucking sad.

        You better watch out that you don't end up being the Sorcerers apprentice " the ghost that i have called, i can not rid myself of anymore'.

        • Dennis Frank

          None of that stuff has anything to do with me. Nor does it seem relevant to my comment. You seem to have someone else in mind…

          • Sabine

            yep, Alfred Ngaro and hte no mates party and their apologists. 🙂

            • Dennis Frank

              Well, Sabine, all I can say is that if you think I'm apologising for the Nats then it appears to be evidence of a tendency to read motives into text. Such tendencies, when the motives aren't actually there, can make people delusional!

              For the record, I consider your warnings re christian bigotry totally appropriate. The Alabama/Missouri roll-back of abortion rights is a travesty of justice. Even Trump has now found it necessary to disagree with the patriarchs: "Trump reiterated his position that abortion should be legal following rape or incest." https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/trump-republicans-distance-themselves-from-alabama-abortion-law/2019/05/19/d44036d8-7a3f-11e9-8bb7-0fc796cf2ec0_story.html?utm_term=.cd7722fa42b2

              "The most recent poll on the issue by the Kaiser Family Foundation, conducted in late April, found that two-thirds of the public wants Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision legalizing abortion, to remain in place. Slightly more than half of Republicans disagree."

              • Sabine

                i don't say you are a National applogist, and if that is what you got from my comment that says more about you then me.

                all i am saying is that we should look at the US and see what happened there and thus stop making fun about it, stop pretending it can't happen here and maybe just be a bit more cautious, cause it can happen here and i fear it will.

                Our current lot of do very little politicians do not address climate change with the urgency needed, do not address job security, food security, housing security and energy security with the urgency needed.

                And thus they leave a space to be filled by hate peddlers and tithing grifters like tamaki and his ilk. And Alfred Ngaro falls under ilk, as do the brethren, the gloriavale cultists, jehova witnesses and the likes. And i will also tell you that they vote, and their women vote, and they will vote for the hate peddlers and tithing grifters so as long as they pretend to be forced birth, anti gay / other orientation, anti freedom of movement for women (ohio, missoury both have lawed it that a women who leaves the state for an abortion is still a criminal should she dare to come back and so is the driver of the car btw), do with your children as you please – i .e. beat the life out of them (blanket training read up on it), don't vaccinate, don't take to the hospital, don't educate cause property of men.

                The point is that they have promised these things, and now thanks to the orange shitshow they are getting what they want. (after all as they said a few years ago, we only need a president who can hold the pen to sign the laws we put in front of him, he is not needed to advance laws or make them). And if you believe that our lot is not equally cynical and monstrous in their intention then i have a two lane bridge flanked by a kauri on either side or ten in Northland to sell to you.

                the wall in the US is not to keep the South Americans out, it is to keep the US Americans in.

        • greywarshark

          Sabine And I have personally met Alfred Ngaro, a man who will not introduce himself when he comes to the shop of a woman, who will not say anything other then 'Can i speak to your husband'. WTF?

          I know that was the sort of thing that men said and did in the 1960s before the new wave of womens lib/feminism. That was what they organised and protested to change. To hear it has still lingered on and is trying to rise up again from the crypt is very concerning.

          Watch this trend of people wanting to take the podium and pronounce on how women should be; jealous men (of their paramount rights) and priggish women (wanting to be seen as perfect examples of womanhood and behaviour, both moral and super-smart, eg Ruth Richardson, Denise L'Estrange-Corbet, Jenny Shipley & other status seekers). Watch for the patriarchal cults, the ones that want women kept in their (lower) place; they are toxic. And often there are economic features and a desire to rob females of their opportunity to develop as their own person, behind the moral pose.

          Some thoughts from Jane Clifton in the Listener of August 13 2011 archived now from Noted: The Princess Industrial Complex. https://www.noted.co.nz/archive/listener-nz-2011/the-princess-industrial-complex/

          https://www.peggyorenstein.com/potowski-; Peggy Orenstein Cinderella Ate My Daughter! She explored the commercialisation by Disney of an interest that little girls had for dressing as princesses in home-made outfits.

          My feeling is that females are the subject of much commercialising and image-making and are vulnerable to peer pressure. They front nearly every magazine in the supermarkets near the checkouts, featuring body shape, looks, scandals, sexual lives, marital tiffs.

          Women are squeezed into shape by popular culture and commercialisation – chick flicks where they can watch romantic movies and ditzy stories about the combination of worries they take on as they try to find themselves in a complex of possible images. Cosmetics to cover their faces and bodies to enhance and preserve is a billion dollar industry.

          Now it has gone full circle in Alabama and other States of misrule, and the disrespect and downgrading of females has descended to extreme and punitive levels, showing a hate that has been mainly masked with occasional eruptions. Now it has been exposed in all its ugly conceptions, and we need to watch for its diseased head here; no vaccinations are available, but an alert populace knowing the signs of rash behaviour may check and contain it. But it will always remain in pockets of cults here and there which have precepts that aren't well understood. There was a doco in recent NZ Film Festival called Angie about Bert Potter's creative urges that led to his Commune.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZlQDHpcMG4 This story Angie shows the difficulty of growing up in a place with no respect for your person, your body and soul.

          How can a woman be respected as a person in the USA States that have brought in such strict abortion laws. In other countries if a woman reports her rape, then she becomes a criminal. I thought that western nations had advanced in the respect and rights of all, but it has apparently been a facade. Respect and rights have never reached the skin-deep stage in Alabama, with their violent, hate-filled, race-crimes past and the volume of hate has increased and overflowed to find further victims.

          Don't let any of this unChristian posing come to rest in NZ. This is not Christianity and Ngaro and his ilk should be charged with hate speech talking about abortions as being like a holocaust.


          Botany MP Jami-Lee Ross has criticised National's Alfred Ngaro for sharing a controversial abortion post https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12232353

          Simon Bridges: "National leader Simon Bridges is defending one of his MP's comments on abortion, saying while "it's not something I would say", people have a right to voice their opinion." https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/simon-bridges-weighs-in-on-mps-abortion-post-its-not-something-i-would-say/

          Would National develop into a clone of the USA Republican Party if there was advantage for them in it?? Have they already and I have been too naive to see it?

          • Sabine

            they have.

            bill english, stale margarine toast, that 'fornication for procreation only dude', the conservative party, the alfred ngaro party

            we really in this country and elsewhere need to stop crying about spilled beans and start seeing what is now. We can't go back to the past. Chances are many of us not white standard issue males would not want to go back, and yet, it seems that many in order to receive a few crumbs are very happy to sacrifice women, children, brown people, non conformist people on the altar of 'privileges lost'.

            • greywarshark

              If you mean that Ngaro is brown, and is interested in privileges lost I think that may be a side track. I think he may be a Pacific Islander and has decided to move into what is called conservative Christianity, with a touch of 'prosperity church' and a strength of purpose and mind that is partly built on blame for male violence on women. There is also a trend to small neighbourhood Christian type groups looking for community and companionship and if you can get what is regarded as a Church going, there may be tax advantages.

              Motivation of that sort is probably higher than perhaps what you have referred to. Conservative Christians are always bubbling away and see their ideas as being recipes for straightening out the debased society that we live in. A lot of what we have now is modelled on television presentations and sport, which is becoming more aggressive and more lucrative, and self-directed rather than community-connecting. There is less cohesive community mores and goodwill round sport than previously. Maori though seem to do better, they have kapa haka and try to maintain their cohesiveness.

              But Tamaki, Ngaro are entrepreneurs who can build on isolation and frustration and lack of purpose and belonging in the midst of suburbs in towns and cities; a built-up society without real community. I think this puts their position and that they are politically adept and worldly, and see their tipping point in today's universal and National's particular, dilemmas.

              • Sabine

                No i say Ngaro is a cynical man who knows that men lost privileges.

                Not only white ones ,but men in general, and there is quite a bit of anger out there in some men that would like to get back their union jobs (but without the evil unions) that would like women to be less independent (no birth control / abortion for you missy, you have sex you deserve that pregnancy – all 20 of them even), that would like to spank/beat their kids without government interference and the missus too if she has an issue joyfully submitting to the husband, and that would like to go back to the top of the picking order. And this has very little to do with race but all to do with gender…..and aren't we lucky, the bible agrees with them.

                One can be a sexist even when brown.

                And yes, there is money – a lot of money in churches, as they are tax exempt, people are expected to tithe, often time all free time is spend in these churches as they pick up were government fails due to lack of funds. Because the same guys that scream government is bad and should be small and lower the taxes are the same guys that will stand at the pulpit and demand their due in the name of god. Tamaki comes to mind. Ngaro in my book wants a piece of the action, and national will enable him at their own peril.

                But at the end of the day, as the United States has shown us over the last few weeks, it is not only a problem for the Party that will get taken over, and that is what i now predict for Natonal Politicians to do – our christianise the evangelic / reborn/ christian in order to get elected in the future as seen in the States – but also for the opposition. Cause they have no response to what is happening on the right. They have no response to the misery of people and other then a few band aids in order to 'not rock the boat', get 're-elected' to maybe offer a few more band aids in the next cycle they have nothing on their plate.

                I predict the next election to be a shit show of epic proportions. And I predict National to go so far right that if they don't watch out the fall of the plate and to stay on the plate they will do much damage to the most vulnerable of our society, women, children, people of color, elderly, sick and so forth. Cause 'charity' rather then government. I am sure Tamaki can't believe that he will now receive tax payer funded government largess due to the inaction of the same governments of all the previous years irrespective of stripe. Cause we can't for example decrim weed to keep men out of prison. We can't spend money of preventable health care. We can't spend money on decent schools for all. We can't spend moeny on decent housing for all. We can't spend money on equal opportunties. We can do any of that, but we can pay tamaki to go to prison and tell men to 'men up' and please don't beat your wife to the point where she or the kid needs a burial.

                (i point to russia into decriminalisng domestic violence 🙂

                Russian women suffering domestic violence are being deterred from going to the police since its partial decriminalisation last year, campaigners have claimed after a dramatic fall in reported incidents.

                The state statistics, released in July, reveal that the number of cases of domestic violence reported to the police in 2017 almost halved since physical abuse became punishable by a fine rather than time in prison.

                Controversial amendments to Russian law decriminalised some forms of domestic violence in February 2017. The changes mean violence against a spouse or children that results in bruising or bleeding but not broken bones is punishable by 15 days in prison or a fine of 30,000 roubles (£380) if they do not happen more than once a year. Previously, these offences carried a maximum jail sentence of two years.


                Can't make that shit up. And yes, all of that has to do with loss of privilege, gender privilege, followed by income privilege, followed by racial privilege and all of that anger will be born by women and children.

            • bewildered

              you really need to get a grip of yourself Sabine, you are becoming delusional as you work yourself up

              • Sabine

                care to point to anything i said that is 'delusional'




                1. characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

                  "hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"

                  • based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.

                    "their delusional belief in the project's merits never wavers"

                I don't know you, but, bless your cotton socks dear, and get a dictionary.

          • Rapunzel

            That's just it they won't "say" on anything they can get away with, whereas it seems the govt must reply to the "nth degree" at all times, any slight variation becomes a headline.

      • mpledger 2.1.4

        He says that now because it's the only thing he can say. Anything else would be political suicide given the ratings he's on.

        At least there is recorded evidence of what he said – just got to hope that when he flips that the media has a long enough memory to come back and revisit this recording.

      • Gabby 2.1.5

        We'll see about that won't we franko. Me, I wouldn't be surprised to find the gnatty candidate helping Alfy Aggro's mob tear down his own posters in praxis.

        • AB

          Sensible centrists and compassionate conservatives seem quite happy to cuddle an authoritarian/fascist when times are tough and their cash-flow is threatened.

    • Sabine 2.2

      they have done that for a while now. They now just admit to it, a bit like in the US where they now happily admit to send women to the death row for having an abortion. Cause 'murder'.

    • Wensleydale 2.3

      Partisan lines have been widening for a while now. I'm fairly sure the level of animosity between left and right wasn't so toxic or shrill even a decade ago. Social media has exacerbated this. It's easy to be an awful human being when nobody knows who you are or where you live.

      Except for lprent. He's like the Eye of Sauron.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    TDB has a good review of the Taranaki fracking situation here, by a trade unionist: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/05/16/guest-blog-edward-miller-why-is-it-ok-to-frack-taranaki-if-were-going-carbon-neutral/

    "Green MP Chloe Swarbrick explained to her followers that this under the current law this was an administrative decision, while Energy Minister Megan Woods was quick to note that among the offer’s benefits was that it didn’t include offshore oil and gas."

    Seems like a damage-control exercise, eh? Yes, we need to get off fossil fuels. No, we don't need to do it fast. Classic centrism, to keep NZF on board.

    “Bizarrely, fracking didn’t get a mention in the Ministry for the Environment Environment Aotearoa 2019 report, which clearly identifies climate change as one of its major themes. And yet in Russia, China, the USA and Australia fracking has become one of the most important areas of discussion on environment and energy.”

    “The fracking boom in the USA – a country whose conventional oil supplies peaked in 1970 (kept on life support when extraction began in Alaska in the 1980s) – pushed US oil production back to those record levels of 10 million barrels a day in November 2017, likely surpassing Saudi Arabia and Russia sometime last year to become the world’s largest producer again.”

    As Bill Clinton famously once said “It’s the economy, stupid.” Electoral success means giving voters what they want, and they want more business as usual.

    • greywarshark 3.1

      From reporter interview on Radionz this morning – Antony Green says about coal mining inAaustralia having a big effect on voting against Labour. They want BAU and jobs. Labour and Greens have to find a way for them to be employed or go whistle.

      Find some work for the working man to do, or face trouble. It isn't rocket science, apparently we can work out the delicate scientific processes that enable rockets, but the well-known human problems are not as intensely interesting, and well-funded, as those of humans which actually will lead to greater disasters than rockets may cause.

      • Sabine 3.1.1

        maybe the government could people to pick up rubbish, or would that be to demeaning and not manly enough?

        there are jobs, as here in NZ, it is just that there is also a certain population that does not want these jobs.

        Or is it only coalworkers that have a right to a job that literally needs to be eradicated if we want to survive? Is that again the song of the poor white male working class with economic anxiety?

  4. esoteric pineapples 4

    "For nearly two decades, one of the most overlooked and little known arrests made in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks was that of the so-called “High Fivers,” or the “Dancing Israelis.” However, new information released by the FBI on May 7 has brought fresh scrutiny to the possibility that the “Dancing Israelis,” at least two of whom were known Mossad operatives, had prior knowledge of the attacks on the World Trade Center.

    Shortly after 8:46 a.m. on the day of the attacks, just minutes after the first plane struck the World Trade Center, five men — later revealed to be Israeli nationals — had positioned themselves in the parking lot of the Doric Apartment Complex in Union City, New Jersey, where they were seen taking pictures and filming the attacks while also celebrating the destruction of the towers and “high fiving” each other. At least one eyewitness interviewed by the FBI had seen the Israelis’ van in the parking lot as early as 8:00 a.m. that day, more than 40 minutes prior to the attack. The story received coverage in U.S. mainstream media at the time but has since been largely forgotten."

    Further on in the story: "Yet, the picture released includes a visible date of September 10, 2001, the day before the attacks,"

    And: Of the explosive residue, the declassified FBI report states:

    A search of the van and individuals was conducted at the time of the vehicle stop. The vehicle was also searched by a trained bomb-sniffing dog which yielded a positive result for the presence of explosive traces. Swabs of the vehicle’s interior were taken, and those samples were sent to the FBI laboratory for further analysis. Final results are still pending.”


    According to a FOX News report from December 2001, 60 Israelis were apprehended or detained after September 11, with most deported, and a total of 140 Israelis were arrested and detained in all of 2001 by federal authorities."

    and;" The company’s owner — Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen — had fled to Israel on September 14, 2001, two days after he had been questioned by the FBI. The FBI told ABC News that “Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.” Surprisingly, since at least 2016, Suter has been living in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he works for a contractor for major tech companies like Google and Microsoft. According to the public records database Intelius, in 2006 and 2007 Suter also worked for a telecommunications company — Granite Telecommunications — that works for the U.S. military and several other U.S. government agencies."


    • francesca 4.1

      There's always been the suspicion that that most efficient spy agency ,Mossad was tracking the hijackers, was aware of their goals, but kept quiet because of the ultimate potential to win sympathy for the Israeli cause

      Well, thats the most charitable explanation of Mossad's role

      Here's Netenyahu on the very day

      "Asked tonight what the attack meant for relations between the United States and Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister, replied, “It’s very good.” Then he edited himself: “Well, not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy.” He predicted that the attack would “strengthen the bond between our two peoples, because we’ve experienced terror over so many decades, but the United States has now experienced a massive hemorrhaging of terror.”


    • Dennis Frank 4.2

      Yeah, a bunch of folks here around a year ago were doing the usual conspiracy theory debunking, so I reminded them of the dancing Israelis. Mossad is known for that kind of thing. It's actually a traditional imperialist strategy: steer a conspiracy from above, without the conspirators knowing that they are merely puppets. Game of thrones has it in various plot-lines due to it being even more traditional than imperialism!

  5. esoteric pineapples 5

    If Iraq wants all foreign troops gone, why is the New Zealand government still uncertain as to whether we will continue to have toops there? My feeling is that Iraq remains an occupied country and sovereignty has never really been returned to it.


    • Sabine 5.1

      that was the outcome from the get go.

      After all we can't have the dears decide what they do with their country, their resources, their lifes right?

  6. francesca 7

    Interesting view on the cultural context of story telling, and goes on to explain why the last season of GOT is so disappointing for fans.

    Not a facile Hollywood take

    Also explains why The Wire was so appealing .That show was a brilliant portrayal of a city (Baltimore)and the power structures that underpinned it.


    • Dennis Frank 7.1

      "George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them." Subtlety of an author isn't easily recycled on television, eh?

      "Benioff and Weiss steer the narrative lane away from the sociological and shifted to the psychological. That’s the main, and often only, way Hollywood and most television writers tell stories. This is an important shift to dissect because whether we tell our stories primarily from a sociological or psychological point of view has great consequences for how we deal with our world and the problems we encounter."

      Seems profound, but is it really? Motives are the key to behaviour, and in politics they are as likely to derive from social context as from personal values & priorities. So both/and logic applies.

      "Hollywood mostly knows how to tell psychological, individualized stories. They do not have the right tools for sociological stories, nor do they even seem to understand the job." Precisely. Worse than that, they rarely even get the basics right!

      I watched the first episode of GoT (was it really 8 years ago?), thought the casting of spoilt American brats so pathetic a misrepresentation of Martin's characters that I couldn't bring myself to watch another, despite the excellent stagecraft.

      "The appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling, where a single charismatic and/or powerful individual, along with his or her internal dynamics, doesn’t carry the whole narrative and explanatory burden."

      That is indeed a key point! From a semiotic perspective, it signals that the political context is where the action is. Even heroes are merely the cresting waves of the ocean, and the currents in that ocean have their equivalent in the group motivations that drive inter-group competition.

      • Sam 7.1.1

        GRR Martin hasn't been involved in GoT the series since season 5 when the series went totally off book. Martin has also stated many times that he's not into allegory story telling, so Star Wars used a lot of WW2 themes in it and G.R.R Martin is against using real world examples because he wants his story telling to be relevant in 200 years time when people can use there own experiences to tell the story.

        Dan and Dave who are the directors went straight for CG in season 7 and 8 at the expense of story writing. GoT was supposed to be 10 seasons but for some reason that I don't know it was decided that there would be only 8 seasons and the final 2 seasons would be shortened from 10 episodes to 6. This shortening of screen time has squished the plot so decisions you would expect to be teased over a season happen in one episode. And spoilers, so it took King Robb Stark 1 or 2 seasons to make it to the Northern Boarders of the Kings Lands of Westeros and in the final season the Northern Armies just pop in Kings Landing in one episode.

        So in the final 2 seasons we didn't get to see all the plot twists and suttle decision making that went into the battles of the final seasons and because we don't get to see that intricate detail characters are looking extra dictatorial and extra genocidal as all the decisions just look rushed and not really connected to any parts of the show instead relying on CG to compensate the audience.

        But there is a consolation to a shortened 2 season series. They've already begun filming of the spin off series of Game of Thrones.

      • BM 7.1.2

        I watched the first episode of GoT (was it really 8 years ago?), thought the casting of spoilt American brats so pathetic a misrepresentation of Martin's characters that I couldn't bring myself to watch another, despite the excellent stagecraft.

        Apart from Peter Dinklage who plays Tyrion Lannister, there are no American actors in Game of Thrones.

        • Dennis Frank

          No kidding? Hollywood really has gone global? Well, if so, my take is that cellphone addiction has morphed youngsters elsewhere into a similar simulation of prefrontal lobotomy as the yanks…

        • Sam

          well if we are really nitpicking it was 9 years ago episode one was released. The finanal season was meant to air March 2018 but it had to be delayed a year because it takes ages to CG Dragons to be able to look that cool.

      • francesca 7.1.3

        Yeah I don't think GOT was ever that meaningful.I only ever liked Tyrion .Bran became an awful bore, and you’re right, the earlier stuff had less CGI

        In the early seasons there was an awful lot of lustiness and explicit sex.When Daenerys(mother of dragons) got mixed up with those horse type people, there was a big animalistic orgy.While I was watching, there seemed to be a lot of slow motion action, then speeding up.I thought for goodness sake, thats getting a bit porn…too far altogether… then I realised my internet speed wasn't up to it and the computer was buffering .

    • RedLogix 7.2

      Yes I found that an interesting read too. Here's my takeaway segment:

      In German playwright Bertolt Brecht’s classic play, Life of Galileo,Andrea, a former pupil of Galileo, visits him after he recants his seminal findings under pressure from the Catholic Church. Galileo gives Andrea his notebooks, asking him to spread the knowledge they contain. Andrea celebrates this, saying “unhappy is the land that breeds no hero.” Galileo corrects him: “Unhappy is the land that needs a hero.”

      Well-run societies don’t need heroes, and the way to keep terrible impulses in check isn’t to dethrone antiheros and replace them with good people. Unfortunately, most of our storytelling—in fiction and also in mass media nonfiction—remains stuck in the hero/antihero narrative. It’s a pity Game of Thrones did not manage to conclude its last season in its original vein. In a historic moment that requires a lot of institution building and incentive changing (technological challenges, climate change, inequality and accountability) we need all the sociological imagination we can get, and fantasy dragons or not, it was nice to have a show that encouraged just that while it lasted.

      This aligns with something a good friend once said, "we need to emerge from the age of the sanctified individual, to the sanctified society".

      • JanM 7.2.1

        Perhaps when we start teaching our children social history instead of 'great white men' stuff they will understand this and act accordingly

        • RedLogix

          Well the trouble with this 'universal white male guilt' hypothesis is that there have indeed been a lot of 'great white men'. Here is one; Fritz Haber:


          He had a turbulent, morally challenging life, yet he left one legacy most people are completely unaware of, that almost half the nitrogen/protein in your body is derived from the Haber-Bosch process that enables the production of industrial scale fertilisers.

          Without his contribution you most likely would have never lived. Should that be ‘forgotten’?

          History is what is and erasing the parts we find politically inconvenient never helps. While it is true that white people have dominated much of the past 400 odd years of human development, that phase is passing. We are now a global society, albeit one that lacks a moral and political framework to moor it.

          Developing a universal social history, and a fresh moral narrative to underpin it, entails embracing all of our past both good and evil. It must be a synthesising, collating, unifying process. Starting from a position of divisiveness ensures only that we remain stuck in the old modes of rivalry, resentment and confrontation.

          • marty mars

            "Haber is also considered the "father of chemical warfare" for his years of pioneering work developing and weaponizing chlorine and other poisonous gases during World War I, especially his actions during the Second Battle of Ypres."

            not so cool – chemical fertilizers that have (imo) fucked the ecosystems and created an illusion of eternal growth that has led to the global warming catastrophe.

            • RedLogix

              Precisely; as I said Haber was a complex character who faced greater moral challenges in his life than most.

              Haber bequeathed to us both the gift of abundant protein and the curse of chemical warfare. One enabled agriculture to feed billions, the other was the first weapon of mass destruction, a pre-cursor to the nuclear bomb. Few people left us such a stark legacy. It’s why his story is interesting and cautionary at the same time.

              Still it's worth saying that war is hell; that no-one wins with a clear conscience. It is why I persistently return to the theme of the need for a global institution with the sole authority to direct military force at scale. Only this can ultimately eliminate war as the scourge on humanity it has been for so long.

              • marty mars

                the achievements you mention seem ugly and detrimental to me.

                • RedLogix

                  Well as I said, half the protein molecules in your body derive ultimately from the process he invented. If you think that ugly and detrimental, then so also must be the large fraction of living people who depend on it.

                  Large scale industrial fertilisers are similar to coal, they've enabled the human race to bootstrap out of mean brutal poverty into our modern world. But we cannot rely on either of these long-term; both come with an environmental cost and we have to move beyond them, on that I think we can agree. In my view only the science and engineering platform we have built can do that on the scale necessary for 9 billion people to thrive.

                  • marty mars

                    Industrial fertilizer – lol good for you.

                    Look around idiot – we are fucking the planet and animals and ourselves – good that you are proud of your cohorts contribution to that.

                    • RedLogix

                      But without industrial fertilizer you likely would not be alive. You need to decide which you prefer.

                      Look around idiot

                      Where I said "both come with an environmental cost and we have to move beyond them".

                    • marty mars

                      hey you and your mate industrial fertilizer are well suited

                    • RedLogix

                      You mock it, yet without it billions would starve. Why do you think this is funny?

                    • marty mars

                      are there any negative effects from industrial fertilizers iyo

                    • RedLogix

                      Yes of course there are:


                      When they first became available they were overused. The big trend now is toward using them more accurately and combined with methods that protect the soil organics.

                    • marty mars

                      oh is that the big trend

                    • RedLogix

                      Fritz Haber invented a process that with little exaggeration, was a crucial factor in doubling the human population. Perhaps more. In 1900 we struggled to feed about 1.6 billion people, now it's over 7 billion.

                      Along with mechanisation and improved plant genetics, synthetic fertilisers have freed most of humanity from the terrible threat of starvation every winter and killing famines every decade or so.

                      That's an extraordinary legacy, one that I think few other humans who have ever lived can match. It seems to me would could be at least a little more grateful.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Nine billion people thriving! [RL @12:14 pm]
                    The associated consumption doesn't bear thinking about.

                    Shouldn’t ‘we’ be "cutting one's coat according to one's cloth"? Because we are seriously running out of 'cloth'.

                    The reduction of atmospheric dinitrogen (N2) to two molecules of ammonia (NH3) by the Haber process requires hydrogen (natural gas/methane are sources), an iron-based catalyst, high pressures (200-300 atmospheres), and high temperatures (400-550 degrees Celcius). Yet nitrogen-fixing bacteria (diazotrophs) manage the same feat at 1 atmosphere pressure and ambient temperatures. One day we might catch up to those 'clever' microbes, but not yet!

                    More Food – More People

                    A group of scientists led by Johan Rockstrom explored the questions of planetary boundaries in an article recently published by Nature. The usual climate change issue was of course reported. What might surprise you though is that while we have only just slipped past the edge of the CO2 boundary, the nitrogen cycle disruption was deemed to be about three times over the safe limit. This graphic illustrates the extent to which we may be overstepping the nitrogen boundary.

                    Haber Process is an Energy Glutton

                    Negative Effects on Soil and Soil Community

                    Fertilizer Runoff and Pollution


                    • RedLogix

                      All true; I've been aware of all this much of my life. Hell I recall cycling through the East Coast backcountry in the immediate aftermath of Cyclone Bola to attend a biodynamics course in Hastings.

                      Above I drew the comparison with coal which for several centuries has been vital in building an industrial society and a platform from which we can now build solar, wind and next gen nuclear power sources to replace it.

          • JanM

            Very irritating not to mention boring when people respond like this. Either you do not understand what I'm saying or you are wilfully derailing. If the latter your time could probably be spent better elsewhere.

            • RedLogix

              Either you do not understand what I'm saying

              If you explained yourself in whole thoughts maybe I'd stand a better chance. Putting up something cryptic and then attacking me for not getting it correct is also boring and derailing.

              • JanM

                It wasn't intended to be cryptic – the terms I used are common enough in the study of history – obviously not your forte.

              • JanM

                It wasn't intended to be cryptic – the terms I used are common enough in the study of history – obviously not your forte.

                • RedLogix

                  Well as the expert in the study of history could you please explain it to this dumbarse engineer.

                  • JanM

                    Social history is the study of society structures in previous times whereas most history taught is about society's leaders as though the rest of us are of no account

                    • RedLogix

                      OK thanks … that makes excellent sense. Human history across all of it's dimensions is way more complex than we get taught at school. Personally I've a particular attraction to the history of science and engineering and the impact this has on social development, but that is only one view of the whole story.

                      The story of how ordinary people lived their lives, and the reason why social structures evolved as they did is also fascinating. It was these people who are our forebears for the most part, who they lay at the turbulent intersection of religion, politics, war, feast and famine every day of their lives. We are the offspring of thousands of generations smart enough and tough enough to survive …

                      Sorry about the misunderstanding.

                    • JanM []

                      All ok

                    • swordfish

                      Social history is the study of society structures in previous times whereas most history taught is about society’s leaders as though the rest of us are of no account

                      Well, when I studied History through to honours level at Uni (two decades ago)… it was almost entirely Social & Cultural history.

                      It began to eclipse Political & Intellectual history (the areas you're thinking of) back in the 60s and early 70s (although social history had been around in one form or another since at least the 20s … particularly Marxist historiography & the French Annales School).

                      Maybe it's different at secondary school level … but I doubt it.

            • greywarshark

              JanM Saying 'old white men' would be an opener for Redlogix.

              After that it all ended up as fertiliser.

      • Robert Guyton 7.2.2


      • Sabine 7.2.3

        it is way easier to wait for a saviour / hero then actually be a decent human being.

        its a bit like waiting for Godot.

        • greywarshark

          Waiting for God-oh! Perhaps there is a little bit of God in all of us, and waiting for the great creator to appear is superfluous – showing a cargo-cult mentality. And on that theme, if we all have a bit of God inside us waiting to be called on and shine, if we meet with others who are the same, do we end up with a large, loving group of people who are more than the sum of their parts?

      • Incognito 7.2.4

        I plucked this from a quick Google search and I think you (and Dennis Frank) might like it.

        Hero Archetype: Decoding This Powerful Archetype in Film & Life

        • Dennis Frank

          This bit is significant: "the Hero archetype actually represents an advanced form of child (boy) psychology. That is, while it does represent the peak of the adolescent stage of development, the Hero archetype is still immature."

          Young men historically became heroes due to indoctrination of the archetype, because it was promoted by the social matrix they grew up in. We could say it was an off-shoot of the warrior archetype. Knights of the round table mythology is a good example in which a culture developed around an ethical basis for heroism.

          Heroism in our culture is exemplified in media stories of men saving someone, and usually denying in subsequent interviews that they are heroes. This tacit discounting of their personification of the archetype is also a cultural bias.

          • Incognito

            All those Super-Heroe movies are great entertainment and wonderful escapism, don’t get me wrong. But they keep us stuck at an immature stage of development.

            • McFlock

              Many superhero movies essentially place the elite individual as more significant than social structures and cooperation. Iron Man is essentially John Galt with wrist rockets.

              • Incognito

                Invincible, indestructible, and almightily good looking with a razor-sharp tongue. The delusional self-image of the average young male high on roids feeding more fantasy stuff into his immature brain. The only social structure and cooperation they are interested in is copulation.

                • McFlock

                  Although to be fair to Stan Lee, apparently he was trying to make an intensely unlikable "hero". But the irony has been lost, except in the name. Most teams are teams of exceptional people largely acting independently (and stupidly).

                  But there are changes in some movies – Wonder Woman had quite a bit of teamwork in it, including with non-super people.

                  The juvenile bit is that movies tend to say "willing to sacrifice all", but almost never do. Even when they die, it's just a matter of time until they come back. Heck, Batman retires at least once.

                  • Incognito

                    One of the worst ones is Transformers IMO. It has got juvenile boys written all over it and seems like a bad marriage between The Fast and the Furious and The Terminator. I have to confess that I have a soft spot for The Matrix.

                    • McFlock

                      Transformers are very bad movies. Bay does excellent composition of large, dynamic scenes, not so hot on everything else.

                      I thought the first couple of terminator movies were better than the matrix movies, to be frank. Matrix is all about teen fool who is the chosen one and can see through the illusion, Terminator movies started as 4D chess.

                      I might be a bit sour on Matrix now so many fools talk about red and blue pills.

                  • Incognito

                    Fair enough.

                    Big Pharma must love that movie (TM) 😉

                    The themes and symbolism are great IMO and it felt like a Dickian movie to me. But you do have to see through or past all the teen angst stuff …

                    • McFlock

                      Killed too many security guards for my taste. But I do love me some Dick…

                      There was an interesting recent streaming series based on his stuff called "Philip K Dick's Electric Dreams". Not as NSFW as it sounds lol. Stand-alone episodes, with some top line actors.

                  • Incognito

                    Yes, I did read that with interest but had forgotten about it so thanks for the reminder.

          • Sacha

            "while it does represent the peak of the adolescent stage of development, the Hero archetype is still immature"

            And boys used to die young, before they could grow out of it. With today's life expectancy, older manbabies like many of those in charge have no excuse.

    • Kevin 7.3

      Problem with GOT final season is GRR Martin gave Benniof and Weiss an outline of what was to happen (as final book not complete) and left them to fill in the dialogue, then for what ever reason they decide to jam it all into 6 episodes.

      Hence, unhappy viewers.

      The Wire was outstanding, from first episode to last.

      • francesca 7.3.1

        I loved that series

        It gave such an understanding of how stuff works.It encompassed both the personal and the wider sociological/political context.

    • marty mars 7.4

      Yes, thanks – this angle is interesting too

      The disposability of POCs in Game of Thrones is something that we’ve had to get used to. Bye Khal Drogo! Laters, Oberyn! Farewell, Dothraki horde! See you on the other side, Sand Snakes! This is a show with a high kill count, of course, but, when there are already so few black or brown characters, seeing them drop like flies at the hands of white characters, in service to other white characters, makes it all the more frustrating.


      • Dennis Frank 7.4.1

        Good point. Seems like tacit racism, eh? However, Martin did acknowledge that he modelled the series on 14th century Europe. If my memory is correct. So no surprise that a crusader ethic can be detected…

        • Sam

          That's just woke bullshit designed to signal how in touch one is with feelings. There is no racism. Every slave master relationship has its fairytales of triumph and backhanded comments laced with key words designed to get around the censor and communicate complex ideas to simple people with out incurring the wrath of the masters. That's why we only hear of story's about the wealthy because making fun of slaves just ain't funny.

          • marty mars

            oh sham you know nothing – woke up dim

            • Sam

              The writers of the show had to make the main characters older and prettier so the show would get a R15 rating instead of the R18 rating the books should have. King Tommen Lanister I mean Beratheon was 9 in the books while he consummated his marriage with Margery, much older. But who gives a flying fuck about Westerosy morals when cancerous normies are attempting to hijack the Game of Thrones logo and reputation so they can build bottom up jargon to demonstrate how fucken awesomely woke they are.

    • McFlock 7.5

      That's a pretty fair call, although not a dealbreaker by any means for me.

      The small cove point though, that pissed me off at the time.

      What I found disappointing about the penultimate episode was that many of the individual sequences were a pastiche of iconic sequences – Arya does an extended Children of Men finishing with a Jarhead, for example.

      I mean, visually it was all awesome, but it wasn't quite as originally awesome as the battle with the night king (that's where I disagree with the article – retconned or deliberately foreshadowed, none of the death came out of nowhere).

      And at least we finally saw why dragons were hyped.

  7. Muttonbird 8

    The thin-skinned, brain-damaged orange shit-gibbon is anything but a peace-maker. The potential for global disaster grows every day.


    • Wensleydale 8.1

      Christ. That's like school-yard stuff. "Oh yeah? I'm going to punch you in the face!" "Well, I'm going to kick you in the balls!"

      Why are we afflicted with leaders who have an overabundance of testosterone and an obvious lack of grey matter? If America marches to war again, they should use John Bolton and Donald Trump as human shields.

  8. greywarshark 9

    Jenny H at No. 8 in How to Get There 19th May explains her motivations and successes. I don't think I've enough to warrant being in that post of doing and exploring ideas. So I've put mine on open mike.

    That was really inspiring Jenny H. I am trying and am concerned just not about CC but also the way that the economic system impoverishes people while it gloats about how good the surface money figures are while those outside the charmed circle wait and whose deficits seem to be a permanent bypass in the body politic. I write here, which I regard as work, and try to keep informed with people from different sectors here and elsewhere, and try to keep the idea of respect and kindness going balanced with practicality.

    Aiming for a system that provides balance while not settling down to a 'don't rock the boat at all' approach requires constant adjustment. I also am supportive of various friends, family not far from death, including my oldish self. I am thinking of how I can help young people, and have various ideas that I need to research to do with people support which enhances our lives and adds resilience for the future. A work in progress.

    It seems easier for people to latch on to environmental matters but we get annoyed with each other, and pass judgment on and eventually ignore the strugglers – don't give money to beggars say a Council and regard that as dealing with problem people. The animals we can excuse, like destructive kea, but people who have had bad childhoods and upbringing, we can't be bothered looking after them, or really helping parents and children coming along to be both loving and strong and capable. I don't like a possible scenario of a tree covered country full of active animals going about their lives with half-naked people fighting off a powerfully armed bunch of marauding groups; a possibility that must be prevented.

    Finding a way to live more simply is hard; we need to accept a less glossy vision for people to aim for, not huge houses on the hill that get redecorated every three years and the change of cars before the warranty expires. More harmony, more respect, more giving a little in many ways, more pleasure in what we have, and trust, these need to be talked about and aimed for.

    Knowing how to spot poseurs is helpful, you can't be too trusting as Greenpeace found out after being infiltrated by the French before they fixed a bomb to the Rainbow Warrior – an act of war if done elsewhere. Do we have Sleepers here from the USA as in the TV series from 2013*? Has our government been infiltrated by 5Eyes partners who can request actions of our police and defence forces? We might wonder.


    At present I am concerned about the rise of cults that appear to offer stability, security and morality, but in payment want to suck in your soul and mind. We have become aware of EB who were vying to help National. Who issues forth next – Ngaro? Do we need to wipe the no-tax ban on churches, which seems to be a temptation for entities that look more devilish than Christian. We need to look for the worm in the apple, and stop these so-called Christians acting out their swagger over 'dark' people which they found mentioned somewhere in the Bible, and over females with whom there can be no latitude because of the myth of Eve, and who need protecting from themselves. Today they trash USA laws – tomorrow?

  9. Dennis Frank 10

    The ongoing political quake in Britain has now produced a three-way split: "More voters now say they would back the Brexit Party at a general election than the Conservatives, according to a new poll. Nigel Farage’s five-week-old outfit would finish second in the popular vote, pushing the Tories into third place, the research conducted by Opinium suggests. In total, the Brexit Party would collect 24 per cent of the ballot, with the Conservatives trailing on just 22 per cent, it was found. Labour would win with 27 per cent of the electorate backing them."

    "The surprise finding comes as the group – which has no manifesto and just a single policy of demanding a no-deal Brexit – continue to top the polls for next week’s European Parliament elections. Some 34 per cent of voters say they will back it on Thursday, Opinium found. That compares to just 20 per cent who say they will support Labour in second place and 15 per cent who indicate they would vote for the Lib Dems." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-poll-election-farage-tories-labour-lib-dems-change-uk-a8920371.html

    "The Conservatives, in that poll, remain fourth – a finding that is expected to heighten despondency in the party and lead to renewed calls for Theresa May to set a definitive timetable for standing down as prime minister. Change UK, meanwhile, a party formed with the express intention of forcing a second Brexit referendum, is struggling with just 3 per cent of voters saying they would back them in either ballot."

    Remainers are history then! I suppose most remainers aren't supporting the remainer party, instead clinging to the delusion that Labour will represent them. So the tories may look like the biggest losers, but remainers are really.

  10. greywarshark 11

    Wouldn't it be good for government to have planning ability and use it? That's what the are thinking in Wellington. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/389599/council-powerless-to-stop-waste-of-space-housing-development

    The developers behind The Paddington want to build about 150 upmarket terraced houses on Taranaki Street in the central city, with prices starting at $788,000.

    The complex is expected to become home to about 300 people, however, the buildings are only two or three storeys high, in an area with a maximum limit of 27 metres…

    At the showroom, Thames Pacific developer Stephen Sutorius said there were too many apartment blocks nearby to build another one on the site.

    "You can't have high-rise blocks all next to each other. You'll get a city where you have no sun, you have no light throughout the developments or throughout the city," Mr Sutorius said.

    Construction was likely to start in November this year, with completion estimated for mid-2021, he said.

    Weak. The architect designs, spaces and places so that all share sun and shade. The Council are saying twice the number could be housed there, so that would only be max six storeys high. I am not sure what earthquake possibilities would allow safely. Over a certain height different construction wold be needed perhaps.

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        Yes Rosemary I forgot about that and the latest worrying news for Wellington. Looking at history it seems we haven't even got as far with facing our problems as Ethelred the Unready.

        And Labour Coalition may yet have to carry out a symbolic trip to the beach where they will demonstrate the truths of our reality as did King Canute when he pointed out his limited powers compared to expectations – he couldn't hold back the tide.

        And Cnut the Great 995-1035 He had a father called Sweyn Forkbeard. That’s a great name too. He was King of Denmark, England and Norway. They had interesting relationships then in that area. Now we have come to the end of the world and our Australian cousins don’t add to our gene pool. If we wish to advance the nation I think, if the Maori continue putting up with us, we could build a great nation with their staunchness and practicality. So don’t listen to defunct Brash with his criticism of Maori greetings.

        • greywarshark

          Moved a bit to the side there Rosemary. Back to the point – the insurance matter is something that Robertson and his advisors will need to look at along with the insurance council to see what can be provided by the state.

          Or perhaps all the filthy rich who were prepared to work hard and get their hands dirty reorganising the positions of power and privilege after Douglas and neolib and free markets. They can bring Eric Watson's money back and stop him wasting it in foreign lands and Australian ventures that should be here, and tax etc. so we can get some stability for the country.

    • Sacha 11.2

      "You can't have high-rise blocks all next to each other"

      Genius, Bruce.

  11. greywarshark 12

    Stealing – rustling in rural communities. Farmers need protection from crime.


  12. Observer Tokoroa 13

    Millsy you are so Right.

    We don't don't need a Creator. We got John Key and his ugly duckling Simon Bridges to do that for us. Best Creators ever.

    We really need Stalin again- that great great man who did so much good too. We need Mr Lenin too. Is he a mate of yours ?

    Or do you prefer Hitler. Anorher fine Man of the Right. He got rid of God long before you. While you at it, why not rubbish Confucius. As well as the dutch Apartheid Mongrels of Africa. Also Kill that magnificent Ruler Of Babylon. Such a good man. Kill him !

    I imagine that you pagans kill the Women and children first. Like the Americans do. Day after day. You know, – when they Bomb innocent people. I am glad you support those bad men. Keep up the madness Millsy.

  13. Eco Maori 14

    Kia ora The AM Show.

    I don't think that that man's words should be heard by the tangata of the Papatuanukue Christchurch desaster.

    I hope not to many people are losted in the atrocious weather events affecting 4 state in America don that's climate change.

    I don't think Trevor should be hung out to dry you have to remember that happened a long time ago things we different in those days it was much easier to servive in those days.

    Bulling is a behaviour humans have had for millions of years you see it in the animal herd group culture there is always one in the group that is picked on the same in human societies. I have bullied I try not to but I don't not like seeing it happen to vanuralble tangata I userly call out the bullie. I had that problem in one work place they young fellas try to bullie me I stood them up they ganged up on me and got me sacked because of the 90 day clause there loss.

    Muppet puppet after my journey back home.( I have every right to call out muppets puppets who use the word CRACK ARE you marketing the shit.)

    Gloriz it's a shame that people like seenothing will use anything to try and float their toilets with out a care on whom they hurt in the process.

    Aziz m8 Eco Maori is discrimination against every day of the year.

    Moniqe doc is doing a excellent job caring for OUR wild life but I still want a bounty put on opossum and stotes that will give money to the common people and get rid of the vermin I have read about the places in Freordland being the last place Kakapo were found on the main land. The problem with the tourist model doc model is the common people are left in the COLD. Te tangata te tangata te tangata. You mite say that te tangata won’t be able to get into all the hard terrain that’s true but if you wipe out all the vermin in the easy places that will bennafit the wild life and te tangata

    The culture needs to change keeping Aotearoa and Papatuanukue free from rubbish and plastic waste is going to be the normal thing as it takes a thousand years to degrade plastic we need to protect Papatuanukue for te Mokopuna Ka kite ano

  14. Eco Maori 15

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  15. Eco Maori 16

    He tangata he tangata he tangata

    Its all the people that need to be loved and cared for not just the wealthy.

    I'm glad I called them out this morning PEEEEE is killing the common people off

    Nicola is an outreach worker and helps homeless Aucklanders in desperate need.

    The video above is episode three of K Rd Chronicles, an eight-part video web series about homelessness in New Zealand's biggest city.

    This episode focuses on Nicola, an outreach worker who helps Aucklanders in desperate need.

    K Rd Chronicles was made for Stuff by Top Shelf Productions, funded by NZ On Air.

    The series is hosted by a transgender journalist called Six, who was homeless for six years.

    The videos touch on addiction, specifically P and synthetic cannabis abuse Ka kite ano links below.


  16. Eco Maori 17

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  17. Eco Maori 18

    Kia Kaha students To Eco Maori Your future is so special I Tau toko you 100%

    Tens of thousands of students are planning to take to the streets for the second time this year to strike for climate change action.

    On Friday, Kiwi students will "rise up to demand climate action from our Government".

    From marches and rallies to tree planting and beach clean ups, New Zealand's youth are doing all they can to bring attention to the issue of climate change.

    Here's everything you need to know about the upcoming strike

    Ka kite ano links below


  18. Eco Maori 19

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

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