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Open mike 20/05/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 20th, 2020 - 128 comments
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128 comments on “Open mike 20/05/2020 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    20 May 2020 at 8:42 am

    Paranoia strikes deep into Oz: "One in eight Australians believe Microsoft founder Bill Gates is somehow responsible for the coronavirus and the 5G wireless network is to blame for spreading the disease.&quot https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/utterly-baseless-one-in-eight-australians-believe-5g-spreading-covid-19

    Understandable if rich ole Bill owned the network, perhaps. Just weird. "The same number of people believe the pandemic is being used to force people into getting vaccinations."

    Probably mean them commies in govt. SloMo & his suits, who they recently elected. "A new Essential poll has revealed the proportion of people who believe coronavirus conspiracy theories. One in five people believe the media and government are exaggerating the death toll to scare the population. Two in five think the virus was engineered and released from a lab in the Chinese city of Wuhan".

    Still, I doubt anyone ever accused Australians of being rational. They seem to be becoming a lot more Australian than usual, though.

    • JanM 1.1
      20 May 2020 at 9:42 am

      It's about the poor education system, I suspect – like America

    • RedLogix 1.2
      20 May 2020 at 9:48 am

      That article is an excellent example of the Association Fallacy.

    • weka 1.3
      20 May 2020 at 12:05 pm

      "The same number of people believe the pandemic is being used to force people into getting vaccinations."

      Tell me, do you believe that an eventual covid19 vaccine should be entirely voluntary, without any kind of legal, social or economic coercion? Or do you think there should be negative incentives to increase uptake?

      Does your position change if the vaccine is rushed to market with little testing?

      Does it change if efficacy is unclear?

      Do you think adverse reaction reporting will be better with covid than normal or worse?

      No, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. But I'm also not going to write off concerns about covid vaccine use at the medical, social and political levels. The people raising concerns might seem stupid to some but the questions above are legitimate and need to be addressed at some point. Taking a vaccination is god approach won't help and will further polarise people.

      (also, let's not forget the third party, nefarious actors in the debate. It's pretty clear that the trolls are there, and I would guess astroturferers as well).

      btw, I think you will find that there are plenty of left wing voters who are in the subculture concerned about vaccination generally, and how it will be handled with covid specifically.

      • bwaghorn 1.3.1
        20 May 2020 at 1:09 pm

        If a vaccine is developed, I wouldn't make people take it accept in the case of travel, all incoming people would need proof of vaccination and so world any exiting kiwis that wish to return.

        • weka 1.3.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 1:23 pm

          what if we end up with community transmission in NZ again? And more deaths and disability as a result?

          • Sacha 1.3.1.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 1:48 pm

            Recruiting 🙂

          • McFlock 1.3.1.1.2
            20 May 2020 at 2:45 pm

            To some degree, it would depend on the efficacy of the vaccine. We might be able to protect some if voluntary uptake is sufficient.

            If not, L4 or a jab. You choose, police enforce, ankle tags if necessary.

            Or if that framing is unpalatable, everyone goes into L4 again unless they get the vaccine.

            • weka 1.3.1.1.2.1
              20 May 2020 at 2:54 pm

              this is why there are anti-vaxxers.

              • McFlock …
                20 May 2020 at 2:56 pm

                It's pretty simple: if there is community transmission without a vaccine, we all go back into L4 again.

                If you don't want the vaccine, go back into L4. Just don't get upset that people who made a different choice get to leave their homes.

                • gsays …
                  20 May 2020 at 3:07 pm

                  And any unintended harm from vaccine is just put down to… collateral damage, taking one for the team?

                  We also just take everything the pharmaceutical company says as gospel?

                  I'd imagine said vaccine would cost a pretty penny too.

                  • McFlock …
                    20 May 2020 at 3:10 pm

                    You don't want it, you don't have to have it.

                    Just stay home under L4 conditions. Like we've all just done.

                    • weka …
                      20 May 2020 at 3:16 pm

                      "You don't want it, you don't have to have it."

                      Let's stomp on any nuance and jump straight to fundamentalism.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 May 2020 at 3:28 pm

                      This isn't a nuanced issue.

                      I'm sure the PM will explain it patiently for people who need more time to get it, but if we get another outbreak and there's an effective vaccine with not nearly as many adverse effects as covid19 has, there are only a couple of options that stop us turning into UK/US/Sweden:

                      • L4 no exemptions.
                      • L4 with exemptions for vaccinated people.
                      • Compulsory vaccination without L4.

                      If you can think of another variation that won't result in thousands of dead, sing out.

                    • gsays …
                      20 May 2020 at 3:37 pm

                      I am not so good at the political terms.

                      I imagine what you have described is on the authoritarian end of the scale.

                      I would imagine there would be a lot of resistance to your idea, and not just from the pro plaguers.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 May 2020 at 3:46 pm

                      "Authoritarian scale".

                      We just came out of Level 4. That's as authoritarian as it gets. Because of a fecking pandemic.

                      A voluntary vaccine gives you an alternative to Level 4, but you need to take it for it to work.

                  • francesca …
                    20 May 2020 at 5:05 pm

                    It certainly will Gsays , the race to a vaccine isn't a race to save lives, its a race to make shitloads of money

                • weka …
                  20 May 2020 at 3:14 pm

                  I understood what you meant McFlock. I am pointing out that mandatory and compulsory vaccination brings large societal issues and this is part of why the anti-vaxxers are all over covid. The polarisation will increase until there is a meeting ground.

                  Let's not forget it's not the anti-vaxxers in NZ that have dropped general vaccination rates, it's the neoliberal fuckery with the health system that has limited access. This is why the MoH isn't overly worried about anti-vaxxers.

                  • McFlock …
                    20 May 2020 at 3:36 pm

                    People can discuss societal issues and ethics without being anti-vax. In the same way people can have a moral framework without being religious.

                    And a lot of the time, either flavour is just noise drowning out more developed discussions.

                    • weka …
                      20 May 2020 at 4:03 pm

                      true in some contexts. If we look at vaccination discussions on TS they tend to be the more heated ones and that's without the third party troll element. On FB and twitter it tends to be a shit show, so I would say that we have lost a large part of our ability to have the conversations.

                      Beyond that, most 'anti-vaxers' are often ordinary people with legitimate concerns about where society is going but not necessarily the frame work to discuss those in because of poor science literacy. My observation is that hating on them is radicalising them.

                      Somewhere like NZ, we still have a good chance of finding ways to both address concerns about vaccination and gain relatively high rates without having to use authoritarianism.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 May 2020 at 4:24 pm

                      It's less authoritarian to offer a vaccine than it is just put everyone into level 4 without an opt-out.

                      As far as I can see, the discussion here has included compulsory vaccination only for people coming into the country. Personally, I favour compulsory quarantine, as vaccination records can be falsified.

                    • weka …
                      20 May 2020 at 4:32 pm

                      As far as I can see, the discussion here has included compulsory vaccination only for people coming into the country.

                      Is that what you were meaning in this conversation? I thought you and I were talking about the NZ population.

                      Personally, I favour compulsory quarantine, as vaccination records can be falsified.

                      I favour quarantine until we have longer term data on efficacy of the vaccine. I'd be surprised if we have that at the point that it starts being rolled out overseas.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 May 2020 at 4:55 pm

                      bwaghorn mentioned it being compulsory for people coming into NZ.

                      I've simply been saying that if we get community transmission, we'll all return to level 4 except the ones who choose to vaccinate.

                      That's not compulsory vaccination, it's compulsory isolation with an out. Currently, there is no out for L4.

              • Cinny …
                20 May 2020 at 4:19 pm

                The MAGA crowd are dead against taking a vaccine. They have this twisted idea that a vaccine is used to control people and that Covid tests are designed just to collect a persons DNA.

                Probably part of the reason Covid is running rampant over there, trump and his dimwitted supporters.

          • bwaghorn 1.3.1.1.3
            21 May 2020 at 6:46 am

            I confidant that enough people will voluntarily get vaccinated to get herd immunity. This is a scary bug.

        • RedLogix 1.3.1.2
          20 May 2020 at 1:56 pm

          Yes. Vaccination is already a fact of life if you want to travel extensively. I carry two passports … the usual kiwi one, and my separate vaccination booklet. Yellow fever is the big one, but they’ll check for typhus and Hepatitis A as well.

          Not all borders demand to see your vaccination booklet, but if you want to get home without dramas ….

          • KJT 1.3.1.2.1
            20 May 2020 at 2:50 pm

            I've been to countries, in the past, where you couldn't enter without Cholera, Yellow fever and even TB, vaccinations.

            • Cinny 1.3.1.2.1.1
              20 May 2020 at 4:20 pm

              And parents need to show proof of vaccination certs when children enter pre-school and school.

          • Pingao 1.3.1.2.2
            20 May 2020 at 4:11 pm

            I wouldn't be surprised if some employers require people to have the COVID vaccination (assuming there is one that is effective, safe, available and affordable), especially in some places or industries. Even if an employer cannot legally require existing employees to get a vaccination (can't see that happening but then again, maybe in some occupations it should), new employees could be required to have it or at least preferred. There may be exceptions for medical reasons perhaps.

            • Adrian 1.3.1.2.2.1
              20 May 2020 at 4:32 pm

              My bet is that there will be no vaccine, it is much more likely that there may well be a treatment much like Aids. Too many victims have gotten the virus a second time in particular the U.S. sailors on their ship, which may prove that if you get over it but go back into or stay in an infected environment you have not acquired immunity.

  2. francesca 2
    20 May 2020 at 8:58 am

    Here's an Australian worth reading

    This quote in particular speaks to me .I recognise myself and others

    "The mind can turn anything into a toy for the ego, and this is never more clear than in online discussion forums."

    https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/dissident-circles-too-often-become-another-nerdy-hobby-group-7bd43bdf9bf8

    • RedLogix 2.1
      20 May 2020 at 9:45 am

      It’s important to hold an acute awareness of why you got into this stuff in the first place. Whatever your individual ideological position, you got into this because you want to actually change things; to change the world, to cause a movement away from humanity’s unhealthy patterns and toward health. It’s not about petty vendettas against opposing factions or subfactions or individuals who don’t see things exactly the same way you do. And your energy expenditure should reflect this.

      Well spotted!

      • greywarshark 2.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 9:51 am

        Edited.
        And this bit nuts things out well.

        Generally, people in dissident circles are under the delusion that this whole thing is about having the perfect beliefs in your head. That if you can just have exactly the right opinions about what’s going on, you “win” in some way, so a ton of energy goes toward finding what looks like the very best set of opinions and arguing with anyone who sees things a tiny little bit differently. And that’s just not what this is about.

        This thing is about changing the world, and changing you. That’s it. If you’re not actually, concretely doing one of those two things in any given moment while engaging in dissident circles, you’re just participating in another nerdy hobby group, with about as much consequence.

        Goggle summary says about the publisher behind the link:
        Medium (website) – Wikipedia
        en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Medium_(website)

        Medium is an online publishing platform developed by Evan Williams and launched in August 2012. It is owned by A Medium Corporation. The platform is an …
        Owner‎: ‎A Medium Corporation
        CEO‎: ‎Evan Williams
        Founder(s)‎: ‎Evan Williams
        Employees‎: ‎85 (May 2017)
        ‎Holacracy · ‎freeCodeCamp · ‎Electronic publishing · ‎Social journalism

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 10:13 am

          The reason why this is important is that no single individual can hold an sufficiently complete and sane view of the world in their head. Reality is too damned complicated for that … we actually need other people, with all of their confounding, contradictory disagreeable ideas and beliefs in order to arrive at sane, functional plans of action.

          • francesca 2.1.1.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 10:23 am

            Agreed .And we need to observe our combative urges , to notice them , but let them go in order to listen to other points of view

            Oh but what vicious pleasures there are in adversarial flame wars

            • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1.1.1
              20 May 2020 at 1:16 pm

              Politics is aggression.

              • weka …
                20 May 2020 at 1:36 pm

                No it's fucking not.

                • weka …
                  20 May 2020 at 1:36 pm

                  sorry, couldn't resist.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    20 May 2020 at 2:18 pm

                    Controlled or otherwise, the fabric of politics is aggression. Pretty primitive stuff. To engage politically, one has to be fighting for or against something *clue-word, "fighting”

                    • weka …
                      20 May 2020 at 2:26 pm

                      I quite like fighting, although I prefer tai chi to hard combat. Strength, tone, concentration, ability to be present can be built in the process, as well as the clarifying of ideas and intent.

                      I'm less convinced that politics *has to be this way though. Isn't there politics in everything, even the human endeavours that avoid fighting for or against?

              • RedLogix …
                20 May 2020 at 1:46 pm

                Politics is controlled confrontation.

                Aggression is what happens when politics fails.

                • roblogic …
                  20 May 2020 at 4:45 pm

                  Politics is passive-aggressive Machiavellian power games in a silk suit. I guess that makes it more civilised?

                  • RedLogix …
                    20 May 2020 at 4:53 pm

                    Yes. Much more so than all the known alternatives.

                    But never forget this, effective political operators, for all the positional games they play, ultimately know how to make the deal. And deals are negotiated.

                    • roblogic …
                      20 May 2020 at 6:55 pm

                      Agreed, and JA has mastered the art, by being awesome at networking (aka making friends).

        • Sacha 2.1.1.2
          20 May 2020 at 12:36 pm

          Grey, what's your point about the people behind the publishing platform?

          Evan Williams has rock solid credentials in that space: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Williams_(Internet_entrepreneur)

    • ianmac 2.2
      20 May 2020 at 12:50 pm

      Of course the alternative to the description of nerdy hobby groups is to be conservatively in favour of the status quo. My impression of National is they resist even considering "progressive" changes. Especially the big issues like Climate change, or social imbalances.

      So I would like to see myself as championing valuable change. And I am not ashamed of that even though I can't do much about it.

  3. Tricledrown 3
    20 May 2020 at 8:59 am

    China is covering up again in Northern China the new outbreak is far worse than the figures they are providing the WHO.

    All other outbreaks around the world show a rapid increase followed by a slow decline.

    The figures for the last 10 days show 1420 new cases every day for 10days no change.

    Very suspicious no increase no decline but exactly the same number.

    The National party want us to start bringing in students from overseas by July ,put them into isolation .why waste resources if one of those students need hospital care or are asymptomatic then we could be back to square one.

    • Incognito 3.1
      20 May 2020 at 9:16 am

      The National party want us to start bringing in students from overseas by July ,put them into isolation .why waste resources if one of those students need hospital care or are asymptomatic then we could be back to square one.

      You don’t happen to have a link for that, do you?

      I find your choice of words an odd one. What do you mean by “waste resources”? You do know that visitors to and guests in and of our country do receive medical attention and healthcare when required, don’t you? International students pay for mandatory health insurance AFAIK. How and why should an overseas student be seen differently from a returning Kiwi, who could equally be asymptomatic?

      • Tricledrown 3.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 10:02 am

        RNZ this morning for Nationals Education spokes person.

        I still can't get the sharing link working.

        Looking at ABC news one person has tested positive 3 times over 2 month as covid has come back twice after initial infection.

        So if some body coming in from overseas and starts another cluster that could cost us way more .

        • Incognito 3.1.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 12:44 pm

          What exactly is the problem with not being able to link?

          I presume you mean this:

          The MP [Dr Shane Reti] is proposing to reopen the border to international students for the second semester in July, if they undergo quarantine, and "if we open the border in a protected way … our arrivals card has to be perfect".

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/417075/sore-throat-omitted-from-covid-19-arrival-cards

          You haven’t answered how this is any different for an overseas traveller compared to a returning Kiwi.

          • Sacha 3.1.1.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 12:58 pm

            I'm guessing it is the basic mechanics at issue. #101

          • gsays 3.1.1.1.2
            20 May 2020 at 3:10 pm

            The most obvious difference is a returning Kiwi is coming home.

            The student is here as part of a commercial arrangement, a cog in a profit driven enterprise. That's enough for me to make a discernment.

            • Incognito 3.1.1.1.2.1
              20 May 2020 at 3:54 pm

              Yes, I understand that a returning Kiwi is coming home to the Motherland but what difference does that make to the health risks involved?

              At least you’re open and honest about your biased and binary attitude towards education of international students. I’d say it is much more than what you make it out to be but that’s a different conversation and a different reason for refusing people entry into the country or a VISA to study here. FYI, the NZ universities are non-profit institutions and they are operating with a 3% operating surplus guideline set by TEC.

              https://www.universitiesnz.ac.nz/about-university-sector/how-nz-universities-are-funded

              • mpledger …
                20 May 2020 at 7:28 pm

                A returning Kiwi/NZ resident we can't refuse but we have a choice about anyone else who comes in.

              • gsays …
                25 May 2020 at 9:30 am

                I had to walk away from this thread.

                Firstly your use of Motherland, "I find your choice of words an odd one".

                Then to go on and imply there was some basic racist intention behind my thinking – binary and biased.

                It is the indecent rush to BAU, that motivated me, just because current funding models are not enough.

                Not to fear, have I got a politician for you: Muller wants to open our border to China, right after Aussie.

    • bill 3.2
      20 May 2020 at 12:43 pm

      China is covering up again in Northern China the new outbreak is far worse than the figures they are providing the WHO.

      The figures for the last 10 days show 1420 new cases every day for 10days no change

      Link or links? Thank you in advance.

  4. roblogic 4
    20 May 2020 at 9:36 am

    Sociopath war criminal given platform on BBC to spread more lies

    • RedBaronCV 4.1
      20 May 2020 at 9:50 am

      Oh dear – he has never realised that he has run the hero to zero trajectory. Perhaps we could refer the british media to our own Marist school cluster which looks like it may have been going for only about a week before everyone was asked to isolate.

  5. RedBaronCV 5
    20 May 2020 at 9:45 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121561276/coronavirus-new-zealand-needs-to-wise-up-says-report

    Think tank report wanting more foreign direct investment.. Rather than us saving up and owning our own stuff

    This think tank has had a number of reports quoted in stuff. They operate under the university of auckland but I wondered just how independent they are and who is funding them. They list at least one foundation partner who has given support who looks like they may be an overseas based hedge fund manager . A quick google and he looks like he may also have been the beneficiary of being able to buy sensitive NZ land by bunging some money to a local school (Not a policy I have ever been in favour of? ) Is there any conflict of interests?

    https://informedfutures.org/our-story/

    • greywarshark 5.1
      20 May 2020 at 10:00 am

      Good research RedBaronCV (Curriculum vitae or CoronaVirus?)

      I hope that our efficacious and tenacious legal and justice systems are checking to see whether these overseas 'invest-us' are getting value for money. /sarc

      • RedBaronCV 5.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 10:11 am

        thank you GW. I spend a lot of my time wondering who pulls the strings. I'll go with corona virus as the cv is historical but i don't want to trouble the mods!

      • roblogic 5.1.2
        20 May 2020 at 10:12 am

        CV = Colonial Viper, cause of many historical flamewars (and much amusement)

    • RedBaronCV 5.2
      20 May 2020 at 10:39 am

      I've actually gone off and had a skim through some of their papers. What they do not appear to be is

      – peer reviewed

      – evidence based. although they do reference other publications – it's hard to know how selective this referencing might be

      – whether these are academics operating within their expertise or not. I've seen elsewhere lawyers writing as if they were experts on how to format the advanced statistical modelling of virus transmission when the understanding is trite.

      _ if these are “discussion papers” where and when is the feedback taken

      Really it looks like academics who may be way outside their lane writing a blog and hiding behind a think tank designation/branding. to diseminate prefered political ideas/

      Twitter and face book and the standard are likely better informed.

      Personally I’ve always wondered where Mr Gluckman was as the Nact science advisor when Nact where doing all the drug testing and moving people out of their homes because of so called “P” contamination.

    • bill 5.3
      20 May 2020 at 12:48 pm

      Think tank report wanting more foreign direct investment..

      That $US 4 trillion Congress has given to US corporations is a lot of money that's going to be looking for somewhere to be in a world decimated by the depression that's coming straight at us.

      edit – To clarify – I think there will be a lot of pressure to align with US business interests.

      • RedBaronCV 5.3.1
        20 May 2020 at 1:21 pm

        yep US business interests will arrive here just long enough to rip us off before stuffing it into a tax haven.

  6. RedBaronCV 6
    20 May 2020 at 1:23 pm

    Well the heath app is here. I see they are making no promises about deleting the contact details . Just where you went after 21 days. And it looks like the data is on offshore servers.

    Honestly I'm just going to take a photo of the businesses I'vr gone into – that will show where I have been.
    And how long before there is discrimination – no app and you are not allowed in?

    • Sacha 6.1
      20 May 2020 at 2:32 pm

      With that app, where you went is stored only on your phone. They get your contact details on their server.

      And there have already been businesses trading for weeks that will not let you in the door without verifying you have logged into one of several other apps.

      • RedBaronCV 6.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 2:35 pm

        Yep I understand that but at the end of level two or level one when the tracing is no longer needed then they should delete the contact details on their server otherwise some new bad actor (Maybe Act gets elected) changes the rules and decides that it can be used for other purposes.
        Are they going to enshrine these rules so an 80% majority is required to change them – thought not!

        Well the “you must use an app” is a form of discrimination – no poor people need apply ? They can do without my money then. And if they have been trading for weeks then have they been breaking the lockdown rules?

        • Sacha 6.1.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 2:53 pm

          The Ministry of Health already has lots of information about us on its servers. This adds very little.

          Not all businesses were banned from trading. All of them needed to record who was entering their premises.

          You are welcome to stay away from all places that require you to record your presence, if that makes you feel better.

          • RedBaronCV 6.1.1.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 3:29 pm

            The MOH shouldn't have stacks of data on me. I've opted out of everything plus I have the ultimate weapon. I belong to a long lived family that goes to the doctor about twice in an adult lifetime. I haven't been for years.

            I don’t mind paper records – somebody stands on them or loses them pretty quickly in my experience. It’s the electronic stuff that hangs around.

        • RedBaronCV 6.1.2.1
          20 May 2020 at 3:12 pm

          Well that answers a few questions so why doesn't the health department put it on it's website? Looks like taking a photo of where I go (one in one out) is just as good as the app so why didn't they tell us that ages ago – instead of people like me just doing it and the government wasting money on the app. And for what it's worth I'm not interested in enriching Amazon even marginally with web hosting fees.

          • Sacha 6.1.2.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 3:16 pm

            That is a very good reason against, in this case. Not like that guy needs any more money.

  7. RedBaronCV 7
    20 May 2020 at 2:32 pm

    Just gone in and read the app FAQ on the MOH website. Well as far as I can see they have failed at the first step of being "transparent". Who developed this app. Peter Thiel – someone else? Are they a developer who may leave a trapdoor in the app so they can harvest data. Do they have a track record for respecting data privacy or not? Do they pay their taxes or just stuff it in tax havens?

    Why is an email address necessary to use the app? Who apart from the contract tracing service is harvesting this email address? How do households who share an email address get along? Honestly if it is phone based why does it not simply record a phone number on the base so they can do a "call me text" to the phone owners they want to contact.

    And of course they can't help themselves – they want extra information to collate -from the website below are these statements. And who reads the fine print and they are already saying that they are going to update it.

    27.3. Aggregate demographic information of Consumers, including approximate age range, gender, and ethnicity, is captured to provide reporting on the usage of the CCTA by different segments of the population. This data is used to inform wider Ministry efforts about the equity of the overall technology response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

    33.1. when recording their contact details for upload to the Ministry (other than the email address required for registration) they may choose what contact and identification details they include;

    • Sacha 7.1
      20 May 2020 at 2:36 pm

      You seem anxious. What would it take for that to change?

      • RedBaronCV 7.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 3:20 pm

        No I'm not anxious – I work in tech related fields – but it seriously annoys me when people stand up and go it's safe, nobody can see it and when you look closely that is simply not the case. Health seems particularly prone to this particular delusion. In particular terms of use can be changed unilaterally without options being given to delete the data. Or the whole contact tracing service could be sold (right wing government anyone?)

        Think Facebook Cambridge Analytica, the creator of the digital face recognition who just helped themselves to private photos on the web. We should not be naive about data use and aggregation

        And don’t forget that within the last few decades at various times abortions, homosexuality single parents unemployed, various ethnic groups have had to deal with their behaviour being either outright criminalised or the state has acted as if they basically were. Put not your trust in princes.

        • Sacha 7.1.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 3:24 pm

          I agree. Credible information is reassuring but hard to find. Having done some work on health IT privacy, it is more advanced in thinking than some other areas. Not often well-explained though.

          • RedBaronCV 7.1.1.1.1
            20 May 2020 at 3:39 pm

            If the covid app is a sign of advanced health privacy I 'll push the opt out button.

            BTW has any thought to ask if the data on the amazon server is actually encrypted and everything can be hacked

        • Kay 7.1.1.2
          20 May 2020 at 3:59 pm

          Totally agree RB. Anyone in receipt of a main benefit should seriously think twice about this, and it's not paranoia. Back in the 1970s the public were encouraged to dob in solo mums for putting a packet of chocolate biscuits in their supermarket trolley. The modern version of this you really don't want WINZ to find out you've been into a cafe or- heaven forbid, a cinema- because that's evidence that a)you're clearly being given too much money and more scarily b) you're lying about your disability if you're capable of leaving the house. Many people in the UK have been affected by the latter so it's a perfectly reasonable thing to consider.

          No way will I ever trust any sort of tracking app created by anyone, yet alone the government. I'll sign in hard copy, but not electronic. Anyway, I don't have mobile data, so moot.

          • weka 7.1.1.2.1
            20 May 2020 at 4:29 pm

            yep, me as well. Same reason I won't use the login on the WINZ website, nor any govt ID validation.

          • RedBaronCV 7.1.1.2.2
            20 May 2020 at 7:35 pm

            Good to see I have friends and it's not just me.The less info the govt has the better.

            BTW as per the above – the solo parents who may be on a benefit or even families on a benefit are likely to be told they have to covid vaccine their kids – we'll get the usual rubbish about how they are slack parents and have to be told what to do.. Me I'd vaccinate all the parents who don't pay or play (look after their kids) then if it has some unusual side effects ….

  8. weka 8
    20 May 2020 at 2:56 pm

    Everything is fine.

  9. greywarshark 9
    20 May 2020 at 3:29 pm

    This sounds a good caution.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018746935/expert-feature-professor-carolyn-king-invasive-mammals

    <i>She [Professor Carolyn King] began her career in Oxford, and was studying weasels in 1971, when she was asked to come and help us get rid of stoats in New Zealand.

    She wrote the first ever book on predators in New Zealand Immigrant Killers in 1984 and then The Handbook of New Zealand Mammals (1990), she’s is now working on the third edition.

    But her most recent published book is called Invasive Predators in New Zealand – Disaster on Four Small Paws...

    "I am very concerned about the possibility of people getting carried away by genetic modification. There's a lot of talk about gene drives, modified genes that can be introduced to a population. They're trying some in Australia for example with the Daughterless Carp Program and these are fish that can produce sons but not daughters. So if you have a whole population with one gender, than sooner or later the population will die out, without you having to set traps or poisons..</i>

  10. Muttonbird 10
    20 May 2020 at 4:05 pm

    Is it possible some National Party leaning folk at Colmar Brunton or TVNZ might leak the result of their poll to Farrar or National Party HQ to allow them to strategise ahead of the release at 6:00pm tomorrow?

  11. joe90 11
    20 May 2020 at 4:25 pm

    Humans, huh.

  12. joe90 12
    20 May 2020 at 4:49 pm

    The fish people know a thing or two about targeting the vulnerable.

    In its final 20 minutes, the documentary film AKA Jane Roe delivers quite the blow to conservatives who have weaponized the story of Jane Roe herself—real name, Norma McCorvey—to argue that people with uteruses should have to carry any and all pregnancies to term.

    […]

    But those filmmakers, and the rest of the pro-life evangelical community, have another curveball coming. In the final third of director Nick Sweeney’s 79-minute documentary, featuring many end-of-life reflections from McCorvey—who grew up queer, poor, and was sexually abused by a family member her mother sent her to live with after leaving reform school—the former Jane Roe admits that her later turn to the anti-abortion camp as a born-again Christian was “all an act.”

    “This is my deathbed confession,” she chuckles, sitting in a chair in her nursing home room, on oxygen. Sweeney asks McCorvey, “Did [the evangelicals] use you as a trophy?” “Of course,” she replies. “I was the Big Fish.” “Do you think you would say that you used them?” Sweeney responds. “Well,” says McCorvey, “I think it was a mutual thing. I took their money and they took me out in front of the cameras and told me what to say. That’s what I’d say.” She even gives an example of her scripted anti-abortion lines. “I’m a good actress,” she points out. “Of course, I’m not acting now.”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/jane-roe-confesses-anti-abortion-conversion-all-an-act-paid-for-by-the-christian-right

    ( alt link http://archive.li/B8tTv )

  13. Peter 13
    20 May 2020 at 4:51 pm

    Someone told me Northland MP Matt King was arrogant. I know the world isn't going to end over his latest publicity.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12333489

    • RedBaronCV 13.1
      20 May 2020 at 8:22 pm

      I read it and really felt for the restaurant staff . They didn't deserve to be dragged into some political statement not of their own making. But that's a Nat behaviour – no care for anyone else

      • Robert Guyton 14.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 5:45 pm

        I see now.

      • Nic the NZer 14.1.2
        20 May 2020 at 6:35 pm

        Of course boosting a specific facebook campaigns numbers might be the point?

        Robert Guyton, it might help to be able to read the link. The bits after the question mark can mean a lot of things to the web-site. In this case they appear to be showing that you came from facebook.com with a specific advertising campaign number. I don't know what utm_source=facebook.com, utm_content, utm_medium=social and utm_campaign mean specifically to that publisher (I can guess) but in some cases this can reveal information about how you came to that page.

        In really dumb cases somebody encodes a user name and password into the url parameters and somebody else posts it elsewhere, though I haven't seen one of these for long time.

        Though the parameters can lead to different pages, Sacha's rule of thumb is usually right because most sites don't do that.

        • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1
          20 May 2020 at 7:58 pm

          Thanks, Nic, I knew none of that, till now. You and Sacha have delivered me a good learning' and I'm grateful for it.

    • Anne 14.2
      20 May 2020 at 6:37 pm

      Robert G @ 14

      Whenever I hear a pollie talking about having "a passion" for something I turn off.

  15. Corey Humm 15
    20 May 2020 at 4:56 pm

    Every lefty should be messaging Nat mp's saying "they won't vote national if Simon is removed, he is a fighter who will claw support back like he did last year" I'm rooting for you Simon, I'm almost certain he's a Labour party supporter! Hang on comrade! You're the best thing to ever happen to Labour!

  16. Pat 16
    20 May 2020 at 6:09 pm

    Disturbing that the mental health services first. last and (almost) only option appears to be medication, efficacious or not.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018747288/more-lives-at-risk-in-mental-health-units-grieving-parents

    • weka 16.1
      20 May 2020 at 6:22 pm

      it's kind of where the culture is at too. There's a taboo about talking about the sometimes severe limits of the biomedical model of psychiatry. That combined with 30 years of neoliberalism and health cuts is a potently bad brew.

      • Pat 16.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 6:26 pm

        Agree that the funding cuts haven't helped but really the predilection to medicate goes way back….my personal experience of the service is if you don't have forceful advocacy (and to a degree even if you do) then the easy option is the only option

        Clarification…personal means family member in case anyone was wondering

  17. Foreign waka 17
    20 May 2020 at 6:22 pm

    Food prices increased by 4.4% average, with "grocery food prices" increasing 4.2%. Not sure how they got there because if I look at my weekly shopping my calculation comes to an increase that sits at double digits. And I am not the only one saying this.

    With wages seeing a freeze and thousands loosing their job lets see how this looks in 3 months time. Any money needs to stretch even further, its even worse for people on any type of benefit.

    • Pat 17.1
      20 May 2020 at 6:53 pm

      CPI is not representative…we need a new way to measure inflation …but that doesn't suit those that run the system

      Everything is political.

  18. Grafton Gully 18
    20 May 2020 at 6:35 pm

    Part of the ugly reality of Covid. 1000 FBU employees layed off. I struggle with the minimising covid deaths policy of the Labour led government when this is the trade off.

    "We have to make some very difficult decisions which include looking at reducing the number of people we employ by approximately 10%. This will equate to around 1,000 positions across New Zealand."

    https://www.nzx.com/announcements/353361

    • Pat 18.1
      20 May 2020 at 7:04 pm

      In the cold calculus of cost-benefit analysis, a highly pessimistic view of the economic costs of Australia’s shutdown comes to around $90 billion.

      It is a small price to pay compared to the statistical value of lives the shutdown should save, around A$1.1 trillion.

      It produces a simple message. The shutdown wins."

      https://theconversation.com/the-costs-of-the-shutdown-are-overestimated-theyre-outweighed-by-its-1-trillion-benefit-138303

      NZ will be the same

      • I Feel Love 18.1.1
        20 May 2020 at 7:12 pm

        Every country is seeing the same thing, ppl losing jobs, we are one of the few coming out of lockdown, infact we've had one of the shorter lock downs. Every one is feeling pain and disruption, again, saving lives is saving the economy.

    • RedBaronCV 18.2
      20 May 2020 at 8:11 pm

      Feel bad for the ones to be laid off but really what does Fletcher's think they are doing. The board & executive had to be really pushed to make even small $ cuts in their very large wages , there have been very strong signals about the levels of money to be spent on government infrastructure – so why not look to at least be creating half time jobs for those who may want this. Then they have at least some income plus half a week to do other work etc and be available when the infrastructure spend comes through

      • I Feel Love 18.2.1
        20 May 2020 at 9:59 pm

        Because our managers aren't very imaginative RedBaron, or creative. It's quite unfortunate and that is what is "ruining" NZ.

        • RedBaronCV 18.2.1.1
          20 May 2020 at 11:32 pm

          Hear hear about the management. They use the same playbook every time. I'm debating buying some shares the AGM could be a doosie .

  19. Incognito 19
    20 May 2020 at 10:28 pm

    Yup, the wheels have come off ERC. When will they pull the plug? Next week, when National may or may not have new Leader? Imagine Simon surviving the challenge and then being kicked out of his sandpit.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121570573/coronavirus-prime-minister-defends-letter-ordering-ministers-and-officials-not-to-appear-before-covid-select-committee

  20. Pat 20
    20 May 2020 at 11:15 pm

    "In New Zealand the UBI was raised during the last election campaign by Gareth Morgan and The Opportunities Party – TOP – and it’s back again pushing for it, (although Morgan is no longer the party leader) saying this is an important transitional period in people’s lives and they need support.

    None of the parties in Parliament have picked it up so far.

    Max Rashbrooke writes about economic inequality and is a 2020 JD Stout Fellow at Victoria University.

    He says UBI is not the answer – not because he thinks we'll end up with a workless society, but because the system is hugely draining on the economy."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018746923/could-a-free-money-for-all-scheme-catch-on-here

    A much better proposal

  22. Eco Maori 22
    21 May 2020 at 6:32 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    A 4 day week could work out.

    The dolphins putting spung on their nose show me they are intelligent and have personalitys.

    Ka kite Ano.

  23. Eco Maori 23
    21 May 2020 at 6:56 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    It looks like we are going to have A tangata government for the next election Ka pai.

    I say Maori trust farms should open their eyes and see exactly how there tangata are treated.

    Its good to see more wahine with moko kau.

    Ka kite Ano

  24. Eco Maori 24
    22 May 2020 at 8:57 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    William he is just stirring the pot to boost the viewers.

    That's correct they forgot about training Kiwis it's cheaper to just import them who cares about the lower classes.

    That's is cool New Zealand being 3rd in the World for charity koha.

    No Kanikani in bars.

    Ka kite Ano

  25. Eco Maori 25
    22 May 2020 at 7:00 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That's awesome all the Tangata supporting that Kuia from ponsonby who received a bad letter kia kaha.

    Ka kite Ano

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