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Open mike 20/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:56 am, February 20th, 2014 - 210 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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210 comments on “Open mike 20/02/2014 ”

  1. Whatever next 1

    The inate competitive nature that early pioneers needed to survive is why the National Party appears to be doing so well. The obsession with winning and sport ( media has turned into a mere sport between journos scoring points, regardless of the impact on people’s lives)prevents any tangible cooperation required to create a groundswell to counter the corruption. Tragic to watch such blatantly bad people lording it, while others struggle to survive, like a 3rd world country, which we will be if this carries on

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1

      I just finished this Guardian interview with Lakoff, who has a go at explaining it.

      • Tracey 1.1.1

        so what is the left’s “moral standpoint?”

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          I think it’s articulated pretty well in the article:

          the ideals are empathy, interdependence, co-operation, communication, authority that is legitimate and proves its legitimacy with its openness to interrogation.

          • Tracey

            that’s quite mouthful. How does that look in everyday speak?

            • Colonial Viper

              that’s quite mouthful. How does that look in everyday speak?

              Very good point. It looks like this:

              We do not forget our neighbours and we do not leave our neighbours behind.

          • veutoviper

            That is well articulated OAB.

            I haven’t had time yet to read the whole article, so thanks for that bit. It covers ideals which are interrelated, but also sufficiently differentiated to require separate mention. It pretty much articulates what a community, society or nation should be striving for in my opinion.

            PS – having now read Tracey’s further comment, IMO it cannot be reduced to everyday speak without losiing its essence and meaning.

            • Colonial Viper

              PS – having now read Tracey’s further comment, IMO it cannot be reduced to everyday speak without losiing its essence and meaning.

              ? I doubt that the workers movements of the 19th century relied on using language that required at least 10 or 12 years of schooling to understand.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Yep. Plain simple language is best, and no barrier to complex ideas.

              • Tracey

                Free Nelson Mandela was simple, catchiy and encapsulated an awful lot Glad they didnt wait til everyone understood the underlying academic treatise on his imprisonment.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  It goes a lot further than that though. Lakoff isn’t urging some sort of one-size-fits-all left wing media jacket, he’s saying that our strength lies in embodying these principles, and praising emotional authenticity.

                  • Tracey

                    I know, was being facetious.

                    My point remains, if it cant be put in some pithy messages, it wont penetrate

              • McFlock

                ever read Das Kapital?
                Not exactly lightweight.

            • Tracey

              Then it is a vacuuous concept for mass change

      • Sosoo 1.1.2

        Lakoff is wrong when he says:

        the understanding that conservatives are not evil, unintelligent, cynical or grasping. Rather, they act according to the moral case as they see it.

        Conservative politicians are authoritarians (cf. Robert Altemeyer’s “The Authoritarian Spectre” – anyone who hasn’t read this, ought to, especially the graph of authoritarianism by party). The Left’s problem is that it sees politics as a sport governed by rules that protect the integrity of the game, and is mystified when it’s opponent continually engages in foul play and wins because of it.

        There is no referee, and the left’s opponent cares nothing for the integrity of the game, so the left needs to stop pretending otherwise if it wants things to change.

        • phillip ure

          @ sosoo


          phillip ure

        • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

          Sosoo, do you believe that all conservatives are evil, unintelligent, cynical, or grasping?

          • Tracey

            Do you believe that no conservatives indulge in foul play to win the “game”?

            I certainly dont believe John key is evil.

            • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

              I believe

              Some politicians engage in foul play to win the game
              Some politicians are conservative
              Politicians engaging in foul play to win the game may be conservative

              That’s a very different belief from what Sosoo appears to be proclaiming – namely that conservatives are evil, unintelligent, cynical, or grasping. I simply seek clarification.

              That said, I’m not sure what Sosoo’s definition of “conservative” is. I’ve found that at places like The Standard “conservative” is simply a label that means “that thing I don’t like”. For instance, John Key is not by any sensible political definition a conservative – but he’s not liked here, therefore he is labelled as a conservative. Which makes the word meaningless.

              • Tracey

                agree. like socialist, commie, lefty, loonie etc… all meaningless indeed.

                • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                  Further: John Key has expressed a belief that a New Zealand republic is inevitable, has proposed that we change our national flag, voted in support of a bill extending marriage equality to homosexuals, and proposed a radical change to NZ’s schools system. He can’t do those things and be a conservative at the same time. John Key is in no way a conservative, and to label him as such is to show ignorance of what conservatism actually is.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    No true Scotsman would do this.

                  • Tracey

                    he can, if his conservative part is financial/economic… he trades your list for the things he wants.

                    he is a royalist of the highest order…
                    the flag was a populist diversion…


                    BUT I do agree…. that he is to t he left of the USA Democrat party, which some republicans think is socialist or communist.

                    • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                      You’re falling into a logical-fallacy trap.

                      I don’t like conservatives
                      I don’t like John Key
                      John Key is a conservative

                      It doesn’t work that way.

                    • Tracey

                      Reading is a skill, you obviously didnt read to the end of my post

                  • Sosoo

                    Conservatism doesn’t have a non-trivial definition that isn’t plainly idiotic.

                    There are basically two reasons for that: either (a) the people espousing it aren’t particularly bright; or (b) the vagueness is intentional and designed to hide the fact that it’s just a cloak for views that can’t be openly stated.

                    That’s why “Conservative Intellectual” is an oxymoron and “conservative political philosophy” is mostly flatulence.

                    • Murray Olsen

                      I find that well constructed exposition of your views very convincing, Sosoo. Conservative political philosophy has come to mean making excuses for greed. Sadly, social democratic political philosophy has come to mean making excuses for inaction at best and abject surrender at worst.

                    • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                      I was watching the Aussie current affairs show “Q&A” back in 2010 and wanting to punch various people in the face, and then this hip young Melbourne academic-slash-muso-slash-author came on and basically wiped the floor with everyone.

                      You watch now.


                      (Cultural context: then-Leader of the Opposition Tony Abbott had at that time of the show just proposed a generous paid-parental-leave scheme; the “Workchoices” referred to in the discussion is the Howard Government’s 2005 overhaul of industrial-relations legislation, stripping away lots of worker protections)

              • @sgh..

                i thought the point that was being made that the two sides of the ideological-game play differently..

                ..and that national usually out-play labour..

                ..phillip ure.

            • Ron

              he did not provide evidence that he is or is not an alien shapeshifter Lizard

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            SHG, it sounds extreme, when you put it that way, but on the other hand recent clinical studies have demonstrated the link between low IQ and right wing beliefs, the fact that wealth erodes personal ethics, the engorged amygdalae of conservatives.

            Then have a look at actual right wing proposals: voter suppression, entrenched discrimination (youth rates, disenfranchisement of prison inmates, etc), the refusal to abide by human rights legislation (cf: Paula Bennett), mass surveillance, the adoption of proven failure (Charter schools, National’s Standards).

            It’s a lot easier to assume that people who do evil are evil, than that they are victims of stupidity and ignorance, but doing so is a right wing thought pattern in itself.

            Personally I tend more towards Lakoff’s interpretation, but remember that even the road to good intentions leads to hell.

          • Sosoo

            That’s not what I said. People follow political parties for all sorts of reasons, but conservative politicians tend to be authoritarians – that’s just an established scientific fact. Their followers tend to be more like them in this respect, but obviously not every single one. Nor is it the case that all of them exhibit every one of the features you talk about, but most of them exhibit at least one.

            Look, if you want to understand conservatives, you just need to know that they are completely right in a strange, inverted sort of way. They’re expert projectors. When they say that there is a sector of society that is aiming to undermine basic freedoms and impose its will on everyone else, they’re completely right. The problem is that it’s them. Their level of self diagnosis is incredible – probably because it’s accompanied by a similar level of self deception.

            • Tracey

              ” that’s just an established scientific fact. ” really?

              • Sosoo

                Yep, you should read the book I referred to earlier: “The Authoritarian Spectre”.

                The author is recognised as the authority on psychological authoritarianism (basically, he cleaned up and made scientifically respectable the insights surrounding the old California Fascism scale).

                He decided to administer his personality test to as many North American politicians as he could. The results were pretty startling, since the test result like it is sorting for political affiliation when it is really sorting for authoritarianism. I still think it is the most startling graph I have ever seen.

            • greywarbler

              I see the book is called The Authoritarian Spectre. I have come to think of authoritarian as being one type of thinking, and always of the right. But it is a mindset apparently that can be applied to the left or the right.

              I guess it always is top-down – that would be a given wouldn’t it? It might be exemplified then in a study called The Authoritarian Sceptre. The thinking seems to lead with certainty to class divisions with the top being entitled to the panolpy of wealth and fiat.

        • Chooky

          @Sosoo….+100 …very interesting points..and i would like to agree with them

          …but i wonder how that meshes in with Kohlberg’s theory of moral development?…(.ie you can get different people at different stages of moral development supporting the same cause but for different moral reasons

          eg was Stalin a real socialist/Communist? …..what about a gangster/mobster/mafiaso/ Teamster or trade unionist? … or a psychopath supporting the anti-Springbok protesters simply because he or she wants to settle some scores with the police and have a good stoush?

          …on the other hand you can get some Conservatives …who when it comes to the crunch are positively statesmanlike and principled ….eg could you put Holyoak in that category?)

          ….also people are complex and will act differently at different times…ie one time they are an authoritarian bastard and at another time quite liberal and democratic

          • Chooky

            @ Sosoo….i was replying to your 10.27 am comment…(.i see you have covered my questions somewhat in yur later comment)

          • Sosoo

            I would say Stalin was an authoritarian. Altemeyer divides authoritarians into right wing and left wing, where “right” means “supports established authorities” and “left” means “supports revolutionary authorities”. It’s not an economic definition.

            Supporters of the Soviet communist party would be classed as “right” by him, because the communist party was the established authority in the USSR. The “left” authoritarians would be people who submitted to revolutionary movements like the Baader Meinhof gang.

        • greywarbler

          Good analogy. A way of explaining deeply puzzling thinking from the right and also on the left.

    • Chooky 1.2

      @ Whatever next…..the early British pioneers /settlers survived through cooperation rather than competition…and they set up one of the best cooperative free , secular, high quality State Education systems in the world in the 1800s

      …women in NZ were the first to get the vote…and get into the unversities and medical schools etc …..decades before Cambridge and Oxford.

      ..many of the early pioneers were working class socialists in sympathy….and wanted to leave the British class system way behind

      Corruption has come with Neoliberalism in New Zealand….and sad to say some of its proponents are relatively new to New Zealand….it is certainly not the Maori way

      • Enough is Enough 1.2.1

        What is your basis for claiming the early British pioneers /settlers survived through cooperation rather than competition.

        They colonised a foreign country and tried to decimate the indigenous people.

        • Chooky

          bullshit…read your history books

          • Enough is Enough

            New Zealand was essentially an aristocratic state until 1891 when King Dick came to power.

            From wikipedia:

            The landed gentry and aristocracy ruled Britain at this time. New Zealand never had an aristocracy but it did have wealthy landowners who largely controlled politics before 1891. The Liberal Party set out to change that by a policy it called “populism.” Richard Seddon had proclaimed the goal as early as 1884: “It is the rich and the poor; it is the wealthy and the landowners against the middle and labouring classes. That, Sir, shows the real political position of New Zealand.

            • Enough is Enough


              [lprent: Was out by the time I got to it. Oh I see a type – “mediation”. ]

            • Chooky

              well there were a lot of other NZers around apart from the aristocracy….eg Maori, whalers, sailors, ‘Australians’ exported from the UK for stealing a horse or poaching rabbits on the aristocracy estate…who made theri way here, people with TB trying to get a country cure, farmers who had too many older brothers in the old country and wanted a farm…etc etc etc….my ancestors came from this lot

              • Enough is Enough

                No Shit there were people other then wealthy land owners. That’s the exact point.

                It was a nation of haves and have nots.

                There were wealthy landowners who ruled the place;
                Maori who had next to everything they owned confiscated; and
                A majority of settlers who found New Zealand not too disimilar to the country they had left.

                The wealthy landowners had control until Seddon came along.

                • Chooky

                  …nevertheless imo….New Zealand has always been a lot more egalitarian than Britain….for a start New Zealand workers have been far more educated …and seen themselves as the equals of those who are wealthier…….they have not been as psychologically stunted by a class structure.

                  ..and where pretentious people ( newcomers?…pommys?) try to impose one it is ignored…part of this comes from our Maori heritage ie the concept of ‘Mana’ ….and part of it has come from our very egalitarian free high quality education system ( which the NACT Neolibs are now trying their best to destroy).

                • Murray Olsen

                  I don’t think the wealthy landowners really had control until around 1850, or maybe even later. In the earlier days, from the first pakeha migrants up to the Treaty, things did seem more egalitarian. Wakefield began to set up a stratified society, which we still see in Christchurch in particular, where the ship your family came on is almost as important as the ancestral waka is to Maori.

                  I’m also not sure that the wealthy landowners lost control with Seddon. In league with the Australian banks, they still control a hell of a lot.

        • Chooky

          in order to survive the early colonialists had to cooperate with the Maori… eg Maori guides in exploration, travel, navigation, food, survival ( there was much inter-marriage also) …they also had to cooperate with their neighbours …eg for support when there was illness, child birth, injury, floods ,storms , wrecks, transport , shelter, food, trade……

          this is not to negate the fact of colonial crimes against the Maori…… land theft, wars, killings etc……why the Treaty of Waitangi must be honoured and upheld

      • well I never 1.2.2

        very true, so maybe it’s the “survival instinct” thing that has lead to this obsession with sport, winning etc. There is nothing to prove, and winning proves nothing. Trying to make sense of why JK is doing so well at dividing and ruling? It’s a mugs game, but seems to work for him here

    • Murray Olsen 1.3

      I would have thought the early pioneers needed a fair degree of cooperation in order to survive, and a degree of respect for the Tangata Whenua, at least until the military balance changed. The Randian imperative towards individualism was probably seen in elements such as highwaymen and horse thieves, who were seen as something to be exterminated in those days. That’s probably where we’ve gone wrong.

  2. amirite 2

    Yep, the rich are getting richer, meanwhile those in need:


    Some people don’t forget how tough life was when you had nothing:


    • re that brian bruce doco on inequality..

      ..i wd like to see one of those neo-lib trouts (key will do..even goff..?)..sat down and systematically be asked to answer each of the charges made in what is a very tidy piece of documentary-making by bruce..

      ..and the doco should really be compulsory-viewing for those too young to know how things were/could be..

      ..and who have been successfully brainwashed into the there-is-no-alternative! mindset..

      ..and how about that mindboggling stat-snap from that doco..?

      ..that there is $23 million of benefit-fraud in nz every year..

      ..and there is up to $5 billion in (criminally) dodged taxes by the wealthy/corporates..

      (there is yr solution to poverty..eh..?..a twofer..

      ..a financial-transaction-tax on the banksters..

      ..and a serious effort to get those dodged-taxes..

      ..that’ll see poverty done and dusted..)

      phillip ure..

      • risildowgtn 2.1.1

        Id much rather see Sir roger Douglas’s Sir title taken off him and the bastard thrown inside…..

        • phillip ure


          ..the footage of douglas in bruces’ doco is so ‘telling’..

          ..especially his ever-so-hollow promise that neo-liberalism/rogernomics..

          ..would make life better for all…(that was a fucken jaw-dropper..)

          ..that was the biggest con-job ever..played on the people of new zealand..

          ..wide-boys and spivs…

          ..all of them..

          ..from both national and labour..

          ..and i am fast coming to the conclusion this current labour party..

          ..so sodden as it is with those same neo-lib faces that preached that vile/dystopia-inducing ideology at us..

          ..can only be renewed/reborn..

          ..after they have gone..

          ..(but funny story..!..i don’t think they themselves realise that..yet..

          ..or else they are that hubris-drenched..that they know..

          ..but it still suits them..to be there..

          ..i dunno which is worse..

          ..their ignorance..or their hubris..)

          phillip ure..

          • Tim

            ….. wide boys and spivs …..

            They should show “Mind the Gap” , followed by “Class of 87”

          • Draco T Bastard

            (but funny story..!..i don’t think they themselves realise that..yet..

            ..or else they are that hubris-drenched..that they know

            I’m betting on the hubris.

            • phillip ure

              @ draco..

              ..aye..!..i was just giving them the ignorance-card to play..

              ..as they exit..

              ..”..i didn’t know..!..i’ll go..!..shall i..?..”

              phillip ure..

            • Tim

              I’d go along with that! The awful thing is that I knew some of them ….. ‘once were lefties’ till they got a taste of the AMEX Gold. And they actually expected me to feel pity after their (sometimes spectacular) crash. (Some of them even pop-up today from time to time …. often as the commentariat, or in jobs that have been engineered for them – ALL doing the same old shit and expecting a different outcome).

              Far more worthy causes in my book.

            • Tracey

              Me too… people find it hard to admit they have been duped… they start off believing the con, then little chinks appear, they rationalise them… by the time they realise their account is empty… they dont sue for fear of revealing their own foolishness… until there is a group action…

  3. Ad 3

    Did Shane Jones just replace David Cunliffe as leader of the Labour Party?

    He’s doing everything the leader should in election year: push a populist issue, build a whispering campaign against faceless corporations, mince his parliamentary opponent, and hit the sweet spot in the political economy that says “sure parts of the economy are booming, but it’s no way enough.”

    • Skinny 3.1

      Jones is doing what an opposition MP should be doing in election year. Unleashing a relentless, torrid attack forcing the Government to respond by opening an enquiry. An effective front bench needs their heavy weights lifting the teams overall game. I see this has having a positive effect with some strong showings by other Labour MP’s. Bloody good stuff it’s now or never time to show the Kiwi public they are ready to govern.

      He signaled during the Labour Party leadership challenge that things were seriously wrong in the supermarket sector. 

      The 2 supermarket chains have increasingly stifled how far the consumers dollar goes. Squeezing out the little guy in favour of multi national corporates. I am heartened listening to morning report on Radio NZ that things are broadening out.



    • for about the first time in my life i agree with the ever-oleaginous joyce..(shudder..!..)

      ..in that jones is over-egging this..and has turned it into a whole dick-waving exercise on his part..

      ..his smoking-gun letter was a broken pea-shooter in reality..

      ..(tho’ i am glad the spotlight has been turned on that supermarket duopoly that has been screwing us blind since forever..

      ..as i want them to be partially-nationalised..with the state taking a 51% controlling share..and leaving the 49% for private-shareholders..

      ..and of course partially-nationalising this duopoly will also make it so much easier to introduce all the healthy-food regulations..

      ..that we all know are way overdue..)

      ..so any good jones has done on this issue..has been purely involuntary..

      ..phillip ure..

      • phillip ure 3.2.1


        phillip ure..

        • Skinny

          Moderation? Sorry Phil how rude of me posting on your page ‘Open Mike’ actually bit off putting having to scroll past your fucking dribble!

          • phillip ure

            and a special getting-wrong-end-of-stick award..for skinny…

            ..and so angry..?..so early in the morning..?

            ..can i suggest a cup of chamomile tea..and a wee lie-down..?

            ..phillip ure..

          • bad12

            Yeah Phillis an Penny usually get the ”scroll on by” treatment from me too, Phillis’s efforts give every appearance of someone brain damaged attempting to pass that damage on,

            Worse, attempting to read ‘its’ disjointed ramblings seems to give you a dose, of brain damage that is…

            • phillip ure

              ..algonquin round table candidate..?


              ..phillip ure..

            • weka

              All I can say is thank god for the space bar.

            • greywarbler

              risil What would making douglas’s title a priority do for the people in need and jobless and underpaid? Revenge and punishment may be sweet but they are not filling.

              And phil ure
              I don’t know why you have to put down Jones and Labour. Jones is doing good, hard hitting, it’s the only way that Labour will make any impact. Something positive for Labour and you are bad-mouthing it.

          • phillip ure

            @ skinny..

            ..and it’s ‘oft-putting’..eh..?

            phillip ure..

      • Northshoreguynz 3.2.2

        I disagree entirely. As mentioned above Jones is doing what every Labour front-bencher should be doing in an election year.
        My wife works in the supermarket industry, and it needs a major shakeup. Most pay minimum wage to staff yet they really are licenses to print money.
        That is why groceries are expensive, sheer greed.

        • phillip ure

          @ north shore..

          ..i totally agree the supermarket duopoly is overdue for partial-nationalisation..

          ..and is an example of institutional-corruption..rotten to the core..

          ..and it is all of us who pay..from their profiteering..

          ..have you ever seen recently arrived tourists @ a supermarket..?

          ..in a state of shock at how expensive the basics of life are here..?

          ..and to me..that couldn’t be a clearer snapshot of how neo-liberalism got everything wrong..

          ..we have ended up with the worst of both worlds..

          ..we have a low-wage/high-cost-of-living economy..

          ..take a bow..!..mr douglas..!

          ..and all the rest of you neo-lib trouts..

          ..behold yr handiwork..eh..?

          ..you have made new zealand ‘sick’..

          ..so really..

          ..fuck you (all) !..


          ..and you are still preaching this shit at us..?

          ..phillip ure..

          • phillip ure

            and kinda funny how there are even nuances in this one..

            ..in that the ‘villains’ of this piece..the aussie supermarkets..

            ..they pay their staff here above award-wages..(not the living-wage..but on the way there..)

            ..whereas ‘the good guys’..’our’ half of this profiteering-duopoly..

            ..they pay their staff minimum-wage..

            ..arsewipes to the left of us..

            ..and arsewipes to the right of us..

            ..partial-nationalise both of them..!

            ..problems solved..!

            ..phillip ure..

            • Hayden

              When my previous employer shifted their manufacturing operations to Auckland (and China, although half it came back, but that’s another story) one of the factory team leaders ended up on the checkouts at the local Pak n Save. When I next saw her, her stories about the way in which management abused the naivety of their mainly young and/or immigrant workforce were quite illuminating.

              I’m still shopping at Countdown, however; their staff are our friends and neighbours and I’d hate to see them lose their jobs over something their management did, especially before it was proven.

              • Draco T Bastard

                When I next saw her, her stories about the way in which management abused the naivety of their mainly young and/or immigrant workforce were quite illuminating.

                Came to the conclusion ages ago that the young were being abused through their ignorance and inexperience. The effects of this abuse by employers will cause those young people to lose trust in other people, likely teach them to be just as abusive and thus contribute to the continuing downfall of civilisation.

                It’s never the young that are the bane of civilisation as the elders throughout history have proclaimed but the greedy elders themselves.

                • Hayden

                  This lady became the union rep and got stuck in to the management; I don’t think I’ve seen her since so I don’t know how well she did.

                  A family member got hounded out of another Pak n Save for being a “trouble maker” over some other employee condition, so it seems to be fairly endemic.

    • Chooky 3.3


    • Enough is Enough 3.4

      I Agree.

      Shane Jones has been superb in the last week taking the fight to the corporate scum (not elite, I detest that description of them, they are scum) on behalf of the workers of this country.

      He has been inspiring and I have no doubt his campaign is having an effect on the number of customers entering Countdown. Lets hope he can extend that campaign to the government.

      Give DC a chance though. He is doing allright notwithstanding the fact the polls havent really changed. I just think he is a bit shell shocked after the seies of gaffes this year. He will come right though. He just needs to look over at what Jones is doing at the moment. A simple directed meaningful campaign against a target.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.4.1

        Give DC a chance…sounds like when people were saying give shearer a chance 🙂

        • Enough is Enough

          Well it is too late to change course now in any case.

          DC has the backing of the activists. That is the key to getting people out to vote.

          He just needs to sharpen up, make sure his statements are accirate and stop saying dumb things.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            It’s well established that if he doesn’t there is a significant section of the media which will simply make them up. Solution: stay on message – the electorate is quite capable of noticing that the “evidence” that “Cunliffe hides his house” is “John Key says”.

    • mickysavage 3.5

      Did Shane Jones just replace David Cunliffe as leader of the Labour Party?

      Not at all. This should be the way the party operates where MPs raise issues and score publicity and embarrass the Government. The more of them that achieve this the better.

      • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 3.5.1

        When the laziest man in politics is your hardest-working front bencher, that means the rest of the front bench are in hiding.

        “Sure thing David! Lead the charge, we’re right behind you! You’ve got our complete support!”

      • Jim Nald 3.5.2

        I’ve been catching up on news of recent weeks since I returned last week and it was good this morning to hear David Cunliffe sounding direct, principled and strong, while giving a good rebuttal and also making clear his values:


        • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

          Sweet zombie jesus, someone tell the guy to STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT PARNELL AND HERNE BAY. To draw attention to this entire line of discussion is nothing but fail.

          Who the fuck is advising Cunliffe? Is the Incense of Bad Decisions burning 24/7 in his office?

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

            @ SHG

            LoL – is it really Mr Cunliffe talking about Herne bay that is getting you so shouty – or is it Mr Cunliffe’s reference to “pulling up ladders” and how it is Mr-spoilsport-Key’s favourite pastime?

        • Hayden

          From your link:

          But when he tried criticising Prime Minister John Key in Parliament earlier this week for living in a Parnell mansion, Mr Key used Mr Cunliffe’s own words against him.

          “I live in Parnell and I am proud of it,” Mr Key told Parliament. “That member [Mr Cunliffe] lives in Herne Bay. He just does not want his supporters to know.”

          The comment in the house (immediately preceding this but omitted by 3 News) was:

          When the Prime Minister gets out more in the leafy suburbs of Parnell and St Stephens Avenue, I am sure he will notice that rents have gone up…

          It’s hardly the attack of the century, is it?

          I did like this though:

          Mr SPEAKER: Would the member just proceed with his supplementary question.

          Hon David Cunliffe: I think it’s the commute to Helensville that’s getting him down, Mr Speaker.

          Mr SPEAKER: And that is not helpful. Would the member just ask his supplementary question.

          Hon David Cunliffe: Perhaps he just takes the helicopter view.

          Mr SPEAKER: Order!


          • Hayden

            AND, to add some more context, the previous exchange went like this:

            Hon David Cunliffe: …Does the Salvation Army’s finding that housing availability is rated as “no progress or going backwards” concern him, or does he think that is good news too?

            Rt Hon JOHN KEY: If the author of that report really meant what they said, then the author actually needs to get out a bit more

            (emphasis mine)

          • bad12

            ”Borrowed from the Vella Brothers” should have been His next quip…

      • Skinny 3.5.3

        Labour supporters, especially the activists have been very slow to react, in no small part Progressive Enterprises is unionised. However the Aussie corporate appears to be up to no good so riding on the general public’s resentment of their conduct and now flows onto Food Stuff, the duopoly are both practicing anti competitive behavior we know it’s not all about the suppliers, employment- slave wages, too much profits made off consumers. These are only a few of the broader issues that need resolving. Get on board Labour supports it’s all about lifting quality of lives.

        Public approval gains votes and enough votes changes Governments, simple as that really.

        • Ron

          As I understand it Foodstuffs is owned by the individuals so when you go into your neighbourhood New World it is owned by the person running the store.
          Where as Progressive stores are owned by an Australian Company.
          That may account for why one is unionised and the other is not.
          It’s much easier to unionise a company that has many branches throughout Australia and NEw Zealand. Not so easy to do the same in many small owner operated stores
          Someone may be able to confirm my understanding of the two companies

          • Skinny

            Yes that is quite correct PE were thumped in a dispute, very solid campaigning by Unions culminating in a very public month long campaign in Auckland. So it was a great result with the PE unionised members having a CA and on average $2 more per hour. Food Stuff is a split deal with private owners. Most are aggressively opposed to Unions reflected in poor working conditions. While they are currently basking in their oppositions misery, they know their time is coming very soon. Campaigns are being arranged to get better terms for the slave workers. All this bad press is the time to act. How do I know? I am in boots and all.

            • phillip ure

              @ skinny..

              ..more power to you..!

              ..if you want me to publish/publicise anything for you/that cause..

              ..my contact details are @ whoar…

              ..phillip ure..

              • Skinny

                Thanks Phil very kind offer after my zero to a hundred grumpy spray at you earlier today. My apologies, as you rightly pointed out I misread your post thinking you were calling for the hammer to be struck over my head lol.

                Not a Thursday person worst day of the week for a drone worker like me, the long days on the tools..sort of. Yes that would be great gesture in unity and all. It will be all hands to the pump and the more the better for fire at will effect!

                • sweet..i know how annoying i can be..

                  ..i would like on my headstone..

                  ..’he was an awkward man’….

                  ..and i do it all for those causes i feel passionately about..

                  ..and there are a few of them..

                  ..that don’t get much of an airing from anyone else..

                  (..i just went and saw korn..(got a late freebee..)


                  ..and i’m glad that banning email-tree wasn’t there..

                  ..’cos one of the bands before korn had the crowd doing what looked very much like nazi-salutes..

                  ..and i am pretty sure their lyrics would not stand up to much scrutiny..

                  ..(i think they might sometimes advocate violence..eh..?..)

                  ..and i think the scrutineering-email-tree should really be alerted..

                  ..i can see these metal-bands being ‘a very real threat to public-order’..


                  ..so..better ban them..eh..?

                  (..btw..is anyone else noticing the further we get away from that whole banning episode..

                  ..the sillier it is/we are looking..?

                  ..and what is going to be done about that junkie/smack-smuggler keith richards..?

                  ..he has been a role model for ‘public disorder’..since forever..

                  ..is the banning email-tree beavering away at that one..?

                  ..blue stockings..!..to the fore..!..)

                  ..phillip ure..

    • TE 3.6

      reply to Ad 20 February 2014 at 7:14 am

      Shane Jones doing what he is supposed to be doing in parlament,representing the voters
      Current parliamentary roles
      Member, Finance and Expenditure Committee
      Member, Primary Production Committee
      Spokesperson, Building and Construction
      Spokesperson, Economic Development
      Spokesperson, Forestry
      Spokesperson, Maori Affairs
      Associate Spokesperson, Finance
      Associate Spokesperson, Fisheries

      • phillip ure 3.6.1

        much as peters was owned by the racing industry..

        ..jones is owned by the corrupt fishing industry..

        ..do you ever hear him speaking up for the third world workers being paid slave-wages on those boats plying our economic-zone..?

        do you/we hell..!

        ..the outrage of the jones is both selective and contrived..

        ..and over-egged/acted..

        ..there is so much ‘ham’…

        ..it is almost a full pig..

        ..phillip ure..

        • TE

          Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah
          What condition my condition was in
          I woke up this mornin’ with the sundown shinin’ in
          I found my mind in a brown paper bag within
          I tripped on a cloud and fell eight miles high
          I tore my mind on a jagged sky
          I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

          dear phil a man is made of lotsa bits
          supermarkets is just 1 of Jones
          fishing is another dark side of the man

  4. Tracey 4

    Herald online leading with a len brown piece harking back to the “scandal” and a profile of a CEO. Nothing about Key misleading during question time. Nice juxtaposition for those who get the connection.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      Right wing nut job politicises public event, embarrasses military staff, brings shame upon her family. Granny yells encouragement.

      • Tracey 4.1.1

        full front page offline.

        big bruv must be the herald editor cos only yesterday he complained no media had concentrated on brown.

    • Enough is Enough 4.2

      That paper is out of control.

      They want to destroy democracy.

      Brown was elected to do a job.

      Let him get on and do it for the sake of Auckland and stop this destablising campaign.

  5. Tracey 5

    “Let us be honest: its programme of mismanaging the economy drove interest rates up and drove people out of their homes. ” John Key 19 Feb 2014

    free of deceit; truthful and sincere.

    “Bill English had to swallow the proverbial dead rat this morning and effectively acknowledge that Michael Cullen had done something right in his stewardship of the Government’s finances in the past nine years.

    Having condemned his predecessor for many years for paying off debt too quickly, English said: “I want to stress that New Zealand starts from a reasonable position in dealing with the uncertainty of our economic outlook.”” Dec 2008

    • Chooky 5.1

      Tracy +100

      Cullen came under the same sustained attack that Helen Clark and Winston Peters got…as well as the Greens, Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimmons

      ….i remember well Sean Plunket on Morning Report…his attack on Left politicians and their policies was relentless and sustained over a period of years…while sucking up to the Nact politicians and an apologist for their policies

      It took a long time to get rid of a very obviously right wing NACT biased journalist from State Broadcasting…. a bit ironic considering how swiftly they have moved on Maori Television….seems as if there are two rules in operation here…

      • Enough is Enough 5.1.1

        Was Plunket planning National campaign meetings out of a state broadcaster……?

        There is a difference between holding a view and doing what Taurima did.

        • Tracey

          I agree. Taurima was stupid, no defence to that.

          • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

            I don’t think he was stupid, I think he was greedy. He wanted a political career, wanted to use the professional networks and facilities of a media company to organise political events and fundraising, and he wanted the security of a politically-neutral job’s paycheque. All at once.

            • Tracey

              Oh come now. he used a room and stationery, hardly the great train robbery. he was stupid, end of. Could have used his own home, was lazy and stupid.

              “He wanted a political career, wanted to use the professional networks and facilities of a media company to organise political events and fundraising” Sounds like National’s number 4.

              • Ron

                Shane would not be the first person that used department resources for private business. I have seen many others working for the same company using email and photocopy machines to run things like
                1. Rugby games for a church organisation
                2. Organising holiday camps for same outfit
                3. Yachting regattas for a yacht club
                4. Ski trips etc etc
                Have also seen private meetings held on TVNZ premises. At night its a handy site and if you have an after work meeting what loss is it to the firm

                It is not uncommon in many firms for staff to use company facilities for private purposes and many firms turn a blind eye to it because it makes for a harmonious work place. Also most staff these days are working 24 hour jobs in the sense that emails come into your phone even when you are not working and you are expected to deal with them, Many staff have vpn’s Citrix etc and are working using their home PC all hours of the night and holidays. It is just something one does so it would be churlish for employer to complain about private work done on company premises.
                The fact that it was a political business might seem a tad unwise in hindsight but it is hardly the crime of the century. If the trawl of the email systems is carried out using proper search tools it might be just amazing how much non company stuff will get found. I am guessing that if other emails indicate others were doing similar things maybe even for other political parties it will be quietly put aside.

        • Chooky

          @ Enough is Enough

          …yeah Taurima was naive as to the political ramifications…i hesitate to say “stupid”….because he was obviously very good at his job

          …and no one but Tau Henare has criticised him for his fairness in interviewing style

          ..This was not the case with Sean Plunket who was obviously and blatantly biased and bullying of the Left

          • Enough is Enough

            They are two completley different things.

            One is campaigning for a political party using state resources.

            One is asking questions from a right wing bias.

            Who accused him of being a bully by the way I missed that.

            I have no problem with interviewers asking hard questions from a biased position. It gives the person the opportunity to show how the interviewer is wrong and demonstrate why they are right.

            Editorial bias is different to an interviwer shooting from one side or the other.

  6. Tracey 6

    Stuart Nash confirmed as Labour candidate for napier.

    Running in the seat previously held by Chris Tremain, some of the aging “dead wood” from National.
    Tremain is 47 and been in parliament since 2005. YUP that’s gotta be the definition of “dead wood” right? Nothing to see here…

    • Tiger Mountain 6.1

      While we are talking about the Labour Party, they have an Obamaesque online presence–“I’m In” and some LECs at least according to my contacts, a street level “be a Labour Neighbour” tactic, but who knew?

      Perhaps who knows and intend to keep it under their hats are the same bozos that organised David Cunliffe’s Kelston address which I attended, and the mangled aftermath. The passive aggressive demeanour of the roped in ABC MPs in the hall really showed what the new leader is up against in contrast to the hundreds of happy clappy rank and file members.

      Labour has to break free from plotting and scheming mode and get out there like Greens and Mana do.
      Thousands turned out on South Island beaches recently to show their feelings about off shore drilling not that you would know that from our tame cat media. That is the type of engagement that will see the Key gang denied another term.

      • Chooky 6.1.1

        @ Tiger Mountain….agreed Labour desperately needs new FIGHTING BLOOD in the front lines

        ….suggest replacing Jacinda Adern and Sue Moroney with new options….( bugger waiting until after the election…when Labour will be cooked)

        …how about bring forward :- Poto Williams, Louisa Wall , Rino Tirikatene, Meka Whataitiri ?

        …especially in the Social Welfare /devt ..kids , unemployment,beneficiaries, low incomes areas …there needs to be fighting talk and high profile attention grabbing spokepeople who are attractive to the 800,000+ nonvoters last time

        • Ron

          Trouble is no seems to be willing to tell those past the use by date that they must move over and let new people in . National has been very consistent in kicking our under performing and replacing with new people. If we cannot do likewise we will never regain Treasury Benches.
          There are too many people that seem to think it is there God given right to remain as a MP for ever. All MP’s need to have regular reviews by the party and if they don’t measure up they should be gone.

          • Chooky

            Yup….time to kick them back to the back benches…that is one thing NACT seems better at than Labour …it can make ruthless decisions and take action….people are always expendable …when yu are old or no good yu are off to the knackers

            …however for the good of the country and for the future of the Labour Party some ruthless pruning has to commence

            …and the best have to go forward as spokespeople

  7. bad12 7

    ”It is the expected market prices,(of electricity),which drive asset values, not the other way round”, so says NZHerald economics editor Brian Gaynor in the Herald online this morning,

    The, (of electricity), was inserted by me to provide clarification to Gaynor’s bizarre ramblings which far from being the considered words of a professional economist look to me akin to the mouthing’s a shyster lawyer would put to a court attempting to defend your average mobster from racketeering charges,

    Gosh!, what an enlightenment, here was i of the belief, a false one at that if Brian is to be believed, that the Power Generation Companies, a multi-monoploy provider of one of the necessities of life, based it’s pricing around an arbitrary valuation of its assets,(in other words a guess from a vested interest hired by another vested interest to provide a valuation that will please the other vested interest),

    The problem with Brian’s whole little thesis, encapsulated within the sentence i opened this comment with, is it’s failure to address ”expected market prices” and from which crystal ball such future ”expectations” are measured,

    In light of the absence of the slightest hint of clarification from Gaynor on the question posed in the paragraph above we have to assume that such ”expected market prices” for wholesale electricity are arrived at by the well known ‘market mechanism of measurement’ GUESSING,

    The dogs of the market, in other words, involved in a fantasizing exercise of chasing their tails round and round in an upward spiral, ”guessing” what ”expected market prices” will be, while being proved correct 100% of the time as when these dogs of the market come back to Earth from the exercise of chasing their tails so as to work themselves into the required mental state from which to produce such ”guesses” they all simply, being in control, set the prices of wholesale electricity to align with the guess,

    Voodoo economics 101, and you and me pay for this…

  8. Hello, been a while 🙂

    Workplace sexual harassment, rape culture in NZ – What a shocker and eye opener.

    Regular readers will know my views on the ‘men’ that do this rubbish to women, and now I can speak from personal experience to add weight to my previously stated opinions here.
    My current employer, though not for long as it seems (now he has git legal beagles involved), has, unbeknown to me, been patting the bum (amongst other acts of harassment) of a demure, quiet, young woman over a sustained period of months and she subsequently couldn’t take any more and left.
    I have had issues with this idiot for a few months myself in the workplace, such as over my illegal contracts, poor working conditions, harsh and unfair treatment and so on, so no love lost between us, even though I’ve always upheld my side of the employee/employer agreement.
    When I found out what he’d done, a month after she had left, I went nuts on him, calling him for what he is, a dirty old man and a pervert, and I told him, as a man, I’m sickened by his actions. Six times he touched her bum and twice her breast, so not just one momentary lapse of judgement here. He said, it’s her word against mine and smiled.
    Giving it some consideration, I later told him I would be taking a personal grievance against him and seek mediation. Since then he’s got his solicitor to draw up a four page letter full of made up nonsense about me, clearly designed as a prelude to dismissal. No worries that I now have to sell my car to pay 2/3 of the legal fees to defend myself against his allegations, because sometimes one just has to make a stand. Me, I have him on numerous counts, so I’m not bothered about my end game. Him, his problems only just started.
    Fortunately, this brave young woman has on my recommendation, has seen my legal rep and is now in the process of taking a case of her own against him, which I’m told is rock solid. So proud of her 🙂

    Blokes, if you see this crud going down, you’re just as bad if you say nothing.
    Enable less and respect our wives, mothers, sisters and daughters.

    • ianmac 8.1

      Good on you The Allen. A blow for justice.

      • The Al1en 8.1.1

        Thanks for the support.

        He thought he’d got away with it, but first thing I did Monday, after after an enforced 2 week holiday, was make sure all the female staff, including the girls at the cafe that share the premises knew the score.
        Which was lucky, because after getting the 4 page letter at 9 am on Monday morning informing me of a meet with him and his rep the following morning, to which I couldn’t arrange my own, I was gagged with a non disclosure agreement first thing Tuesday under the threat of instant dismissal.

        A worried man I hope. Much more than I am of facing the dole and losing my $15 ph job.

        If we don’t fight, we’ll never win. 🙂

        • Colonial Viper

          Heh you should have let them instantly dismiss you for not signing the non-disclosure on the spot, that would make their eventual pay out to you even greater lol

          • The Al1en

            I had to ring my guy and he said sign, no worries, so I did.

            Money isn’t my motive, even for my own employment situation, though I’d take his money, but not at mediation where the outcome is confidential and comes wrapped in non disclosure. I’m headed full hearing and take what I get, even if it’s a small award, or nothing, or nowhere near as much as he’ll likely try and buy my silence with, just so it can be reported and his offending is outed.

            It’s the young woman’s call to make, not mine, but I’ve so wanted to go to the police. Maybe they’ll get involved after it’s all come out in the wash. Hope so.

        • RedBaronCV

          Thanks – you’re a top bloke.

      • Chooky 8.1.2

        @ the Allen+100…yu are very brave!…i once faced sexual harassment and it was very subtle ( girlie penthouse mags left on my desk, a fire in my rubbish bin…not acknowledged for the professional work i did…poorly paid and overworked in a job i loved and did well…it can be very insidious….and horrible to fight!.(luckily I had support from a boyfriend, other women and the harasser’s ex wife!)…….All power to you and the girls…and boys….. who want to get into this scrum and fight this behaviour!…i think sometimes the harrasser does not realise the damage they are doing until they are brought to account ….for them it can be just fun….but sometimes there is a far more insidious intent and they have a personality disorder

        • The Al1en

          Definitely disordered and probably, in my opinion, not a little insidious with it.

          There are arseholes everywhere, and for whatever reason, they think they can get away with things. Scrum down I say. Thanks for the kindness.

    • Colonial Viper 8.2

      Dude, good on you for slamming this guy. Perhaps you could ask lprent or someone to designate a bank account within which money for a legal fighting fund for you could be deposited. I’d be the first contributor. And I also bet that the young woman you spoke of is not the only female employee that he has sexually harrassed.

      • The Al1en 8.2.1

        Cheers Tat, but I think I’m good for most of the cash to get it to moderation when I sell my car, and I’ll be eligible for legal aid should it go to full hearing, so keep your money in your little/big piggy. 🙂

        No, apparently she isn’t, but most worrying to me is that he also employs a special needs girl and her sister. Not having that on my conscience.

        • Colonial Viper

          Sweet, just keep in touch 🙂

          • One Anonymous Bloke


            Let us know what happens please Al1en.

            Well done.

            • The Al1en

              Thanks, will do. Anyway, I’m not the gaggable sort.

              My man is away all next week and has requested information from my boss about the things he put in the Monday letter, but though I have informed him (and with much more notice than I was given by some 5 days), he may insist I attend and have his way for the moment.

              Scary with a mortgage and stuff, but was born feet first, kicking and screaming as I came, so holding it all together for now. 🙂

        • The Al1en

          Get it to ‘Mediation’ :doh:

      • David H 8.2.2

        How about the local Cab or Labour office can offer some help.

        • The Al1en

          I have a solicitor on it now, but have used the Labour office for advice about the same employer over a different contract issue, more to confirm what I already knew, and they were friendly enough.

    • karol 8.3

      Good on you, Allen. Sorry to hear the struggles it has given you.

      Blokes, if you see this crud going down, you’re just as bad if you say nothing.
      Enable less and respect our wives, mothers, sisters and daughters.


      Also worth reading is Chloe King’s post on The Daily Blog: “Please, be that guy.”

      The thing is I have spent a greater part of my life campaigning for the rights of women and trying to think of ways we might end rape and violence against women. It has only occurred to me in the last year or so, the violence is never going to decrease or stop unless we seriously address how we are raising young men.

      • The Al1en 8.3.1

        Thanks Karol, respect your respect.

        It’s out of order full stop, but I have a 12 year old daughter, and the thought of her ending up working for a bloke like this, well, you get the idea.

    • Puckish Rogue 8.4

      Good on you

  9. Penny Bright 9




    Although the Serious Fraud Agency is purportedly the ‘lead’ agency to whom bribery and corruption complaints are supposed to be referred, in the first instance (according to a Memorandum of Understanding between the Police and SFO) – this is NOT based in statute.


    (Check out Schedule 6 – Bribery and Corruption).

    If you look at the NZ Serious Fraud Office Act 1990 – you will not find the words ‘bribery’ or ‘corruption’.


    It also doesn’t help when the SFO treats bribery and corruption complaints as ‘serious and complex fraud’ complaints, as I have experienced on more than one occasion.

    Perhaps this is a major reason why New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’?

    Hoe are alleged corruption offences even investigated – let alone prosecuted?

    Penny Bright

    (More background information is available on http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz)

  10. “..VIDEO: Eminem – Ice Cube – and Korn – Team Up with Anonymous to Call For Global Revolution..”

    (ed:..f.y.i..korn are playing in auckland @ vector tonite..)


    phillip ure..

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    See, farming can be made better. Less use of water, less use of pesticides, zero nutrient runoff and better eating. Oh, and less land use.

    This reminds me of the farm towers mentioned in Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.

  12. Tracey 12

    John keys friend’s brother says sorry. So, let’s all move on aye.

    “The head of the GCSB spy agency, Ian Fletcher, has apologised to Prime Minister John Key for making embarrassing errors in its 2013 annual report on the number of interception warrants and access authorisations in force and issued.

    In each case it under-stated the number.

    The errors are particularly embarrassing given the assurances Prime Minister John Key has given that its systems had been cleaned up after the Rebecca Kitteridge review of the agency.

    An erratum to the annual report was tabled in Parliament today.”

    • Hayden 12.1

      With John Key conveniently not in the House?

      Did Ian Fletcher hand-deliver it over breakfast?

      • Tracey 12.1.1

        Nothing to see here. Wrong figures given, Key could claim low surveillance whil eunder the spotlight.

        spotlight gone, friend’s brother says “oops, sorry guv, my bad”

    • dv 12.2

      How come the GCSB can’t count!!!
      The numbers were not very large!!!

      • karol 12.2.1

        They counted the wrong numbers. Doesn’t inspire any confidence in them choosing to spy on the right targets.

        • Anne

          From Tracey @12 to Hayden toTracey (again) to dv to karol.

          Thanks for the best laugh of the day. So understated. 😀

      • bad12 12.2.2

        Yeah but consider the difficulty for a moment wont you, just how hard would any of them find it to enumerate past the number five with one hand continuously stuck down the back of the Y fronts leaving only four digits and a thumb,

        For a start there would be the ethical conundrum for your average GCSB operative to come to terms with, whether the use of the thumb was allowed within the rules of mathematics to reach a conclusion or not is one question reliable information says that they are still debating…

      • Murray Olsen 12.2.3

        SInce the budget increases, they’ve been able to wear shoes. They’re getting used to not being able to count to 20 any more, but it’s taking a while.

        • dv

          You lot are so mean.

          • bad12

            It’s the result of Thursday night being ‘shit night’ across all the free to air TV channels, while i do realize that the clinic full of cynics have judged Thursday night to be the one night of the week that the slaves need to be rested so as to enable them to still have the energy to push capitalism’s heavy wheel for the full 8 all day Friday without collapsing from exhaustion,

            There is choice involved here so why punish us all, they could have chosen to revolt befor the boot came crashing down on their necks 30 years ago ensuring their bondage and far far worse to come for their grand-children…

  13. Tracey 13

    The new housing WOF pilot has been announced today. Interesting the two criteria Nick Smith will look at to evaluate success are whether the WOF’s are

    and cost-effective

    Interesting cos he doesnt consider it successful if it reveals significant shortcomings in homes;


    • flip 13.1

      This is where the Left should be nailing the government for all its worth. As you point out Tracey such a plan should be to remove sub-standard housing and not just from the state supply but from the private supply. A simple policy of all rental properties must comply with a WOF would be great for the left to promote. Not a poxy pilot. Cost and practicality should be a given consideration for any policy. It is a no brainer for the improvement of the quality of peoples lives which is what government is about.

      • bad12 13.1.1

        Flip-ping hell, you are joking are you not, what a grand idea, lets have a warrant of fitness for every rental property in the land,

        What exactly do you all think is going to happen to the tenants or are they simply an inconvience to everyone’s thinking about how punishing this WOF scheme for rentals could become for the rentier class in New Zealand…

        • flip

          “What exactly do you all think is going to happen to the tenants…”

          They get better quality of housing and living standards. Improved health. We have a WOF for cars. Why not for houses?

          • bad12

            Really, how bout they get tossed out in the street coz the landlord would rather sell the place than spend any money on fixing whats necessary to get that WOF,

            How bout they get tossed out in to the street because the landlord starts racking the rent to pay for the fixing of whats necessary to gt that WOF,

            Where do you think the poorest of renters are to be found???, in the worst of houses is where they are to be found because that’s the cheapest dive to rent,

            i have NO time whatsoever for the Tory landlords, but, when you start advocating for the dicking round of the housing stock available while wearing your rose tinted’s do have one little thought for the negative effects of what your proposing wont you,

            Good for their health alright, nothing like a good breath of fresh air for mum and the kids when the landlord decides stuff the repairs and sells the joint…

            • flip

              OK. That is one scenario. Lets say the landlord does decide they are not going to fix and then sell. So they hock off the dive. Then what?

              It’ll be cheap for obvious reasons. Someone either fixes and rents it because they are in a better people or in a better financial situation than the miserly landlord. Or it goes to a someone who wants to own their own home who is likely to improve its quality anyway.

              It both outcomes housing stock quality increases.

              So what about the tenants who have been turfed out. Isn’t that where state housing is supposed to kick in? If they cannot find a house at an affordable price then their income is insufficient or there is insufficient supply or too much demand which are all different problems requiring different remedies.

              Obviously no policy stands on its own and it is the job of the government and those in waiting to compile a set that work together to improve the quality of peoples lives. The parties that do that the best and communicate that the best win the election.

  14. Mark Rennie 14

    I travel back and forward between Philippines and NZ and have to say NZ doesn’t have poverty as is believed by the Labour/Greens. I see poverty everyday here in PH and have to say the people effected by this keep smiling,don’t blame the Govt, keep trying to better themselves and don’t require Sky dishes, playstation and more than one pair of shoes for their kids.
    From over here I think the Labour party have made a big mistake in voting a leader who makes big mistakes everyday ,who lives a life only afforded by the top 5% of the citizens and then tries to say he is a man of the common people.

    You have to look at the polls in an all inclusive manner and say the average is maybe 47% Nat 31% Lab and 12% Greens, does this not tell you that the current Govt is doing a lot right

    Just what I am feeling

    Bring back Helen

    • Tracey 14.1

      yup, on the streets the salvation walks too, but not on the streets john key walks

    • bad12 14.2

      Mark Rennie, this comment is so totally full of absolute and deliberate bullshit that you should be told to, ummm fuck off…

    • greywarbler 14.3

      They have also taken arms in the Phillipines against government in the past, to get rid of the Marcoses. Now they may feel that what they have is as good as they can get. It;s a different sort of poverty, but they have wealthy doing really well, and the poor scraping by. Whether you smile or frown, the situation is the same.

    • flip 14.4

      @mark rennie
      Inequity exists around the world. NZ is not the Philippines and really they are not comparable in any meaningful way. Just because those that suffer from poverty smile does not make it OK. Really! People smile for all sorts of reasons, perhaps they are trying to con you as a Western to offer them something? Maybe they are nice people. You have no idea as to the reason for the smile. Or have you asked them to talk about their situation.

      “…does this not tell you that the current Govt is doing a lot right”

      Perhaps it is because the left are not offering a credible alternative yet in spite of all the good advice they get from thestandard.org.nz web site.

  15. captain hook 15

    I see vernon small condoning john key consorting with wail boil.
    He [key] would do well to ponder on showbiz personalites consorting with criminals in the US. in the end it was the finish of them all.

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      Did you also note this:

      Then there is poll- becalmed David Cunliffe, suggesting his $2.5 million- plus Herne Bay pile puts him in a different category when it comes to understanding Kiwi battlers, than the prime minister in his $10m mansion.

      His next stroke of genius was to ask in Parliament’s Question Time about Key’s claim there were jobs out there, if people looked for them.

      Cunliffe’s timing – when he was seeking a new chief of staff, had lost a senior member of his research team and had seen his potential candidate for Tamaki Makaurau, Shane Taurima, fall on his sword at Television New Zealand – was, shall we say, not ideal.

      It says nothing about the genius of press gallery reporters that they had pretty much rehearsed Key’s slapdown of Cunliffe before it came.

  16. Puckish Rogue 16


    “Most Labour MPs, however, argued that Key would certainly unseat Brash before the next election. If it was inevitable that Key rather than Brash would lead National into the next election, the argument went, it was in Labour’s interest to have Key in the opposition leader’s seat as soon as possible so that the friction of politics could rub away some of his glow. Better to run against Key when he’s been opposition leader for 18 months rather than only 4-6 months. Therefore Labour kept the heat on Brash, doing whatever they could to speed his downfall.”

    I know we’re all wise after the event but maybe not Labours best plan 🙂

  17. Arfamo 17

    Example of journalistic excellence:

    “Commerce Minister Craig Foss has confirmed that the Commerce Commerce will launch a formal investigation into supermarket sector in New Zealand.

    Mr Foss confirmed it while facing questions from Labour MP Shane Jones who has made allegations under Parliamentary privilege about Countdown demanding payments from New Zealand suppliers.”

    … “The Commerce Commission administer the Commerce Act. If any member gets in the way of that process or prejudices its outcome, there may be an unintended outcome as far as that process is concerned as it moves through the Commerce Commission. I’m very cautious of trying to let the Commerce Commission do what it is proscribed to do.”


  18. Tracey 18

    Child Poverty—Measurement

    METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister for Social Development: What papers or reports, if any, did her office produce in the last 12 months relating to the measurement of child poverty?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development) : In respect of the measurement, none.

    Metiria Turei: Can the Minister confirm for the House that she did not seek any reports on the Children’s Commissioner’s $500,000 project to measure and monitor child poverty, or even seek advice on whether such a measure was necessary?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: I have definitely received reports on child poverty. I am part of the Ministerial Committee on Poverty, but I have not sought from my department an argument on the measurements. We are more interested in the actions that need to be taken, and those are the reports that I expect from my department.

    Metiria Turei: Upon whose expert advice did the Minister write off the Children’s Commissioner’s child poverty monitor work?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: It was certainly discussed at the Ministerial Committee on Poverty. That is where the discussion took place. That is the advice that I sought.

    Metiria Turei: Does the Minister see, then, any connection between the Salvation Army’s D ranking of her failure over child poverty with her express refusal to engage with the Children’s Commissioner’s child poverty monitor project?

    Rt Hon John Key: You mean D as in Dotcom?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: I have heard it said that it might be D for Dotcom, but what I would say is that the Ministry of Social Development household income report comes out. It does an accurate analysis of a number of measures. We report it transparently and publicly. It is certainly what we, on this side of the House, take notice of. As I say, it is very transparent. The member can get a copy of it any time. It is that advice that I take.

    Metiria Turei: If a parent was given a D for looking after their child, would she consider that they were doing a good job, or not?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: For me this gets to the heart of the actual issue. So the member thinks that it is only the Government’s throwing money around and getting into every household and giving them 60 bucks a week for a newborn baby that is going to make the difference. I actually think it is not about just the Government; it is about the Government, community, and parents themselves actually putting their children first in many instances. It is about what is happening in the streets. It is about what organisations like the Salvation Army do. So I do not think it is a D for the Government. In fact, what the Salvation Army did say was that “as a national community, we have made credible and worthwhile social progress. It is important to acknowledge and celebrate this because, for the most part, it is intentional and hard won. The Government should be applauded for its contribution to this progress.”

    Metiria Turei: Well, then, how does the Minister explain that for all her rhetoric and chest-thumping and political bluster, the reality remains—[Interruption]

    Mr SPEAKER: Order! Would the member like to start her question again.

    Metiria Turei: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How, then, does the Minister explain that for all her rhetoric, chest-thumping, and political bluster, the reality remains that one in every five children in this country remains living in poverty after 5 long years of her Government?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: What we have seen by every measure is that it has flat-lined. What we have done through the worst global financial crisis—and people might like to write that off and pretend it did not happen, but actually what we did was we put more money, more support, into those families that really needed it. We are seeing improvements when we look at the number of jobs that are on board and the opportunities for people to take them up. I am very confident that you are going to see the real results of that.

    Metiria Turei: Is the Minister refusing to acknowledge the seriousness of having one in every five New Zealand children still living in poverty, and is she actively snubbing the commissioner’s work on monitoring child poverty because she does not want to be held accountable for her failure to make any improvement in the lives of those one in five New Zealand children?

    Hon PAULA BENNETT: And that, ladies and gentlemen, was chest-thumping. Right, so what we have here is, actually, I do not agree with the member. This is the Government that has introduced the Children’s Action Plan. This is the Government that has put more emphasis on early childhood education and that has increased the amount that goes into accommodation help. It has put an emphasis on rheumatic fever, which, quite frankly, we have not seen at all. We have got after-hours for under-6-year-olds now. We have got food in any school that wants to take it for breakfast. More than $500,000 is going to KidsCan to actually help those children. I do take it seriously. I want to see every child in this country thriving and achieving and having the best possible start that they can.

    • bad12 18.1

      i hope that Metiria was suitable attired in sack-cloth when asking such questions of Bennett, we don’t want to have Nationals effete sensibilities over improper attire offended now do we,

      Gee thanks Paula, we did notice the rain of crumbs that were quickly and quietly swept from the table in the general direction of the most needy kids in our society, the whole loaf tho is really what’s required to fix the Neo-liberal mess…

    • that was a good effort by turei..

      ..she is more than a match 4 bennett..

      ..by the time turei had finished..

      ..bennett was foam-flecked-lips/wide-eyed/over-excited..

      ..(hence that last hysterical paragraph from her..)

      ..i am glad turei is not prefacing/ending every question with a smile any more..

      ..it’s ok 2 b serious..

      ..there are serious matters/times..

      ..turei has a well-trained/educated-brain/mind..

      ..and should just keep on displaying that..

      ..that’ll do just fine..

      ..phillip ure..

  19. unpcnzcougar 19

    Today’s New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows National (48%, up 1%) increasing its lead over a potential Labour/ Greens alliance (42%, down 2%). Support for Key’s Coalition partners shows the Maori Party 0.5% (down 1%), ACT NZ (1%, up 1%) and United Future 0.5% (up 0.5%).

    Support for the Labour Party has fallen sharply to 30% (down 3%), while the Greens have risen to 12% (up 1%), New Zealand First 5.5% (up 1%), Mana Party 1% (unchanged), Conservative Party of NZ 1% (down 0.5%) and Internet Party (0.5%, unchanged) while support for Others is now 0% (unchanged).

    If a National Election were held now the latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows that National would be returned to power.

    • bad12 19.1

      Interesting, although the most prolific of polls and making an interesting indication of the track of the various Parties Roy Morgan unfortunately is conflicted,

      It would seem the son of Roy, no not an axe murderer, the Pollster, has deep monetary ties to the Australian mining industry, and, we all can assume that our favorite Roy Morgan is likely to become the head cheerleader for the ‘National can Govern alone brigade’,

      Pity that cos for me Roy Morgan seemed to provide a counter to the NZ mass media use of polls, pollsters who could be considered suspect…

      • Disraeli Gladstone 19.1.1

        In other words:

        Roy Morgan was the most reliable poll. Until Labour went down. Now, it’s clearly unreliable.

        • bad12

          yawn Disraeli Gallstone,we got this National has enough support to Govern all mind-wash of the electorate at about the same time in the cycle pre-2011 election,

          Myself i prefer new lies over the same old same old tired ones, it appears tho that the defenders of the Neo-Liberal faith are either slow at making them up or perhaps have lost the ability having choked their ‘intellects’ on a diet of previously distributed bullshit…

    • Disraeli Gladstone 19.2

      The average of all political polls have shown a 7% swing away from Labour/Greens to National in the last month.

      Now, some of that is almost definitely overstated statistical noise. But there’s probably an underlying movement back towards National.

      • mickysavage 19.2.1

        We all get sucked into the minute of politics but IMHO the most important statistic is, absent major scandal, how optimistic people are feeling. Kiwis are feeling really optimistic right now. Hence the Government is thought to be doing a good job. Hence Labour is finding it tough.

        Time will tell though.

  20. SHG (not Colonial Viper) 20

    The Government Confidence Rating is up 1pt with 63.5% of New Zealanders saying New Zealand is ‘heading in the right direction’ compared to 23.5% that say New Zealand is ‘heading in the wrong direction’.

    oh lol

  21. Tigger 21


    Silicon Valley’s collusion to suppress wages. Chilling stuff.

    ‘Free’ market?

  22. xtasy 22

    People power is about people, and music is the expression of people, this may happen to a degree here in NZ, but I see stronger cultures express themselves more profoundly, right so:

    While I wrote this my browser was seized, I wonder why, and we have NO free internet, we are NOT without surveillance, we are checked here 24/7, dear friends, better get used to it!

    This is NOT a FREE country, it is a surveilled, controlled country! Fuck NZ! 5 Eyes and more bullshit, we have it here, and you are ALL being checked all the time.

    The 5 Eyes association is NOT free, democratic and transparent, they are liars and manipulators, for the elite in power, that have a crap view of you and me reading this.

  23. xtasy 23

    If this may have failed attention, here we have two traditional revolutionary bands or groups of musicians from Chile perform together, to celebrate the defeat of Pinochet and the regime after that dictator. It is about hymns about freedom and social justice in Chile, worth listening to and watching:

    • bad12 23.1

      X, David has a couple of jobs going in His office, in light of your previous kind offer to act as an adviser to Him, perhaps you should apply…

      • xtasy 23.1.1

        Hah, I appreciate your suggestion bad12, with my personal background, they will not bother, as I am too much a “risk” factor, no matter how honest and reliable I am as a person.

        But thanks for reminding, and for giving me credit. I never expected Cunliffe and his team to contact me, as they are too much geared into the “mainstream” flow, I am afraid. I may also like to please the “mainstream”, but I also have absolute PRINCIPLES!

        • bad12

          X, but do you have other principles in case folks do not like the first set, as Slippery the PM has shown you need a well provisioned carpet-bag to get ahead these days…

          • xtasy

            My principles are absolute honesty and integrity, and that is part of what is missing in some of those that want to challenge principle void Key, that is why they now also hammer Shane Jones, questioning his “sincere” motives re supermarket deals. Politics is damned difficult, and we here can easily slam and criticise, but we need to also have ones that stand for principles, to be supported. Sadly some want support and attention, but they fall over, Labour and even Greens (Russel’s recent media savvy comments).

            It may be time for a game changer, but that will never be such an idiot wannabe like Colin Colon Cringe, as he is wanting to be a “saint” to get others into line.

            The left should really have a rather easy game, if only they would be totally honest, committed and straight with promoting a fair, honest and sharing society, the middle class perk agenda is only “corrupting” the left, I am sorry. It will not work. the “right” will only compete with more “perks”.

      • xtasy 23.1.2

        CONSIDER ME, my humble self, as an “outside” and free of charge “advisor”, I live off a benefit, and offer support and ideas to many, so Labour could learn a lot just listening to people like me, but they won’t, that is why I (and many) will rather support Greens or Mana!

  24. logie97 24


    Joyce was answering questions put to him by Campbell this evening.
    Not once have I heard this Mr Fixit, apologise directly to those affected by the shortcomings of Novopay. And he is now blaming the pay structure of the education sector for the problems.

    The previous payroll system managed all these complexities quite satisfactorily.

    Novopay tendered for the payroll and would have seen all the nuances involved. They have come up short and caused many people a huge amount of angst. But as always it is everyone else’s fault but the government.

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