Open mike 21/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 21st, 2019 - 251 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

251 comments on “Open mike 21/03/2019”

  1. WeTheBleeple 1

    Dennis Frank the fake intellectual

    “your reluctance to identify the root cause”

    What is the root cause then, huh?

    “Blaming her for not catering to our common interests seems unreasonable when she knows she must cater to the special interests of those she represents.”

    Bennett represents special interests – not New Zealand? Then the blame should partly be apportioned in her direction. And Nash. Fuck the 250 000 gun holders, this decision was meant to be made for millions of us.

    And all the ministers who ignored Susan Devoy delegating for Muslim women, and who ignored Muslim women – partly culpable.

    These lobbyists need to get the fuck out of our politics and fuck off.

    Dennis, you could fuck off too you are an insensitive asshat.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [lprent: That was unhelpful, caused a personality swabble, and wound up having nothing to do with the post… Not helpful and kind of dumb eh. ]

    • Dennis Frank 1.1

      I presume you’ll be wearing a head-scarf to demonstrate your solidarity with the muslim women. Post a selfie onsite here when you do – it will help to prove to others how politically correct you are!

      • WeTheBleeple 1.1.1

        I’m sorry what. You think you are denigrating me suggesting I should be like a Muslim woman?

        It’d be exponentially classier than your stupid old white bullshit.

        “The slow learners” – But that is you Spanky.

        Also identified another trick from your sad stirrers playbook. you don’t really address the topic presented, too hard, you go sideways and spout shit to confuse. But I can read it loud and clear. BS BS BS fact BS BS BS. And that’s the sum total of your offerings.

        • vto 1.1.1.1

          ” old white ”

          or

          “young brown”

          or

          “muslim immigrant”

          that bigoted talk of yours WTB is the lifeblood of the bigots and terrorists, and is a large one of the many strands which led directly to the 50 people being killed. Have you not been taking notice the last week? It needs to stop.

          Ignoramus

          • WeTheBleeple 1.1.1.1.1

            Err, no.

            It was aping Dennis’s jab at female muslims, and possibly our PM.

      • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2

        What I enjoyed most about this comment was how you’ve shown your true face finally. All you sociopaths are fragile little flowers.

        Got your number now though, aye Franky. Mild sociopathy, disguised as a ‘centrist’.

        Spin us another one.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.1

          Well to be honest , … it seems more like Dennis Frank was asserting what it means for him/her to be a New Zealander, – which , at least honestly , – doesn’t include adopting traditional clothing from cultures other than his / her own.

          And why should they? do mere clothes and exterior gesticulation always demonstrate amiability or empathy? And why , should someone feel compelled to change what they are comfortable with when they have already demonstrated kindness and sympathy?

          I do not think human beings are so thick and do not recognize those quality’s when shown to them. A change of wardrobe is not needed. It does show genuineness. And conversely , changing ones wardrobe can also show deceit and a way to gain advantage. A ‘false’ identifying in order to pacify or deceive. Its been done countless times.

          I think that’s fair comment, especially when we tout our ‘love for all cultures’ and how we see ourselves an ‘ inclusive’ .

          The bottom line is , … be yourselves, be comfortable in your own skins , people will know when your being genuine. If it take a change of wardrobe and you think that’s necessary,… that’s OK too. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

          • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.1.1

            Actually, he was trying to insult me thinking the insult was in the form of:

            1. A Woman

            2. A Muslim

            3. A PC person

            But you can interpret his gibberish as sense if you like being led down the garden path.

            Never been accused of being PC before. Cheers.

            • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.1.1.1

              Nope , not saying your being politically correct, just saying what I feel is how we can all feel / react or demonstrate differently ,…our various modes of empathy and reconciliation. And no one particular way is superior to the other.

              An example is when my 11 year old son had cancer, I felt pressure to cut my very long hair,… I wouldn’t. I felt like I was being pressured into going along with some sort of medical death cult.

              My son Jack never once complained. He just knew and loved his Dad. Long hair and all. And he was just the same when he passed away with me holding his hand.

              • cleangreen

                God Wild Katipo youjust hit me hard.

                I am so sorry to hear you lost your own son, shit that is so gut wrenching I have tears welling up inside my eyes.

                Keep the faith; – that you are carrying on the fight for common peoples justice; – as you always are.

                Aroha to you,

          • solkta 1.1.2.1.2

            Fennis Drank’s pathetic jibe is obviously a reference to the PM wearing a headscarf when she visited the mosque. This is just basic courtesy of meeting protocol in the same way as removing one’s shoes before entering a wharenui. Just basic respect.

      • greywarshark 1.1.3

        It’s time to be the older statesman Dennis Frank don’t you think. It’s getting like a boxing ring here. Seems time to turn off the fuel for this unseemly carry-on and you are the one who can do it best.

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.3.1

          I’m not whacking the bullies, Grey, just exposing their puerile nature. It’s the old `give em enough rope, they’ll hang themselves’. So they respond by trying to show how well-hung they are… 😎

          • greywarshark 1.1.3.1.1

            Funny DF. But don’t please give them as much rope, (whether made from hemp or not) as some aren’t able to let the rope go and call it a day and we don’t get to throw light on el problemo.

      • vto 1.1.4

        Dennis Frank,, don’t let the knockers on here get to you. I find your pieces well considered, intellectual and bigger-picture stuff, which imo is the only way to view any issue…. get the big picture right first, then the detail can fall out of that.

        On top of that, your responses to some of the knockers is also well mannered and calm… which is what we all need at these times. Our city of Chch has been broken this week, very sombre everyone, tears in the eyes of random passersby, … I hope it doesn’t drop into anger next… though I can feel it …. the city moving through the stages ….

        Keep at it DF

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.4.1

          I appreciate the support. I actually don’t need it, due to a childhood of being victimised by my father long ago. No kiwi male I’ve encountered since those days has been much of a problem, regardless how hard they tried.

          It does puzzle me that some leftists are dead keen to foster toxic culture here. Copying the language of the alt-right may not be the brilliant master-stroke they seem to think it is. It’s as if they lack the intelligence to grasp that abusive language escalates, via recidivism, sufficiently to modify behaviour. That eventually produces the extreme violence we have seen in recent days.

          • soddenleaf 1.1.4.1.1

            There is no accounting for outliers of all ilks going to far. However the general level of malaise has been rising due to the dominance of the right in media, govt, industry, for the last thirty years. Green politics wont just save the planet, they are undenially linked to social change. Just a Thatcher changed social norms, I.e the assumption that stupid simplified economics was all that was needed created a class of sycophant conservatives.

    • A little harsh on the poster, old chap.

      As regards Bennett,… that notorious opportunist , – who could play to the gun lobby’s interest and then blatantly ignore the plight of hundreds of thousands of minimum wage workers / unemployed and see them and their family’s living in cars,- and then put the same up in motels incurring debts to the govt they never had a hope of paying back…]

      What more can we say?

      She was driven by the irresponsible immigration policy of her party to provide gluttonous employers a steady stream of cheap foreign labour to shore up the far right wing ChiNational party’s push for its neo liberal free market ideals… all the while doing NOTHING for those who were born here generations ago.

      A very insidious backdoor method to weaken the Trade Union movement in this country. There is no point in trying to argue the ChiNational party did not have this as their motive. Otherwise we would call them thick if they could not fully realize the consequences.

      Thick.

      Bennett.

      They are synonymous.

      She is nothing more than a foot soldier for the neo liberal banking groups , financiers and overseas investors and ideologues such as the Mont Pelerin Society.

      New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
      http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

      But she demonstrates her contempt and ruthlessness for the NZ public when she displayed the private details of citizens to the public media – a colossal betrayal of the Privacy Laws and the sanctity of the privacy rights of all New Zealanders. And she did not stop there. Later on she repeated the same performance.

      She is a neo liberal, a globalist,… just like her perverted hair pulling leader who was so far up Barak Obama’s ring-piece he screamed this into the microphone and committed us to the USA’s foreign adventures with no second thoughts on any possible deadly consequences to those of his own countrymen and women.

      With no second thoughts or concerns whatsoever that it was the illegal and Unilateral invasion of Iraq led by George Bush and Tony Blair that caused mass instability in the Middle East and the creation of ISIS. Far right winger neo liberals don’t care for consequences unless it brings power and wealth. They are no different from common thugs.

      John Key: “Get some guts!” on sending troops to Iraq – YouTube

      • WeTheBleeple 1.2.1

        “A little harsh on the poster, old chap.”

        Out of context I guess it is. I’ve been watching all the posters since 15th to see where the bad eggs are. He’s a shit stirrer hiding behind intellect. Those who cause chaos for kicks and then play victim – classic sociopathy.

        Hides behind word salad gibberish.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.2.1.1

          I’m a bad egg, …and my most vehement opposition is always against both the far right wing globalist neo liberals and the identity politicking, virtue signalling Left wing screamers. Both these camps, – are to me , – toxic and need exposing.

          I’ve found both are non conciliatory , bloody minded and disregard science, esoteric possibility of thinking outside of their narrow ‘orthodox’ thinking and possible solutions , their attitudes inhibits commonsense and freedom of expression , rational thought and the consequences of their actions ,… who both exercise Politically Correct slogans and memes, movements and lobbying equally.

          In short , – they are oppressive personality’s.

          They are both extreme examples of opposite ends of the political spectrum that bend so far around that they join in the middle again.

          They are the very definition of what , – if left unchecked , – creates totalitarianism.

          • patricia bremner 1.2.1.1.1

            WK, Agreed, Fundamentalists do not compromise at all. That can be dangerous.

            • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1.1.1

              What are you guys talking about, centrist neoliberals are just as ideologically driven and uncompromising as any other political group, dosn’t the largest concentration of wealth at the top and the greatest wealth inequality recorded ring any alarm bells for you?

              • If we truly practiced conservative, centrist politics in this country we never would have allowed neo liberalism / aka Douglas to implement it.

                I say ‘conservative’ with an all encompassing small ‘c’.

                So don’t be alarmed.

                We have had it rammed into us over three decades that the radical monetarist policy’s of neo liberalism are ‘Orthodox’.

                It is not . It is a radical economic theory which only draws from a simplistic ‘supply and demand’ component of the larger field of economics.

                And along with that comes a political ideology that creates a platform for that theory to be entrenched . It encourages the relaxing of all state borders in trade and immigration that facilitates all manner of social ills. We have seen that with the sell off of state housing in a housing crises and the neo liberals answer to rely on a gouging rapacious private sector. We have seen our domestic industry fail in competition with cheaply produced, sweat shop labour imports. We have seen an irresponsible immigration setting that undermines wages and the Trade Union movement.

                What you are talking about are ‘centrist neo liberals’.

                They are still neo liberals.

                What others are talking about is a return to a more Keynesian based economics Social Democracy. Similar to what Scandinavia practices. Your economic ideology dictates policy’s across the board. It also dictates the strength of a sovereign govt.

                There is no place for the strong sovereign state in the globalist neo liberals ideology. They are hostile to that.

                The neo liberal right , left and center are all just expressions of the same anti state , globalist ideology.

          • WeTheBleeple 1.2.1.1.2

            I get all this, and I agree.

            The margins are often where good ideas come from, but not where power should reside.

            The center should be a common ground and area of debate. Not a cesspit for stirring the pot.

            • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1.2.1

              The centre is just a euphemism for liberlisim..and that ideology has failed.

              • WeTheBleeple

                I thoroughly agree Liberalism is a failure. Though the center has been hijacked, ideally it is where debate occurs (with all stakeholders at the table).

              • Read what I wrote further above.

                It is not Right nor Left nor Centrist that is the problem, it is ideology.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  For some unknown reason most people on this site just can’t or won’t accept the fact that NZ Labour and Ardern are still practicing neoliberal cultists.
                  And I say cult, because that is what it now has become in my opinion, it’s failure worldwide in manifest, however they cling to its ideology as if clinging to a life raft from their ship that has already sunk.

        • WeekendWarrior 1.2.1.2

          “I’ve been watching all the posters since the 15th to see where the bad eggs are” – and you then go on to claim that someone is a classic sociopath? Righto.

          • WeTheBleeple 1.2.1.2.1

            This is the most easily recognized behavior (to me) of sociopaths in the workplace and forums. If I used the wrong word…

            Enlighten me.

            Who is who is for my own use. But Dennis is a special boy.

            I clocked 4 ‘edgy’ posts in the aftermath as people were reeling from Friday. Including:

            – Promoting talking points made by the terrorist in his manifesto as if they had validity

            – Proposing the issue is with the Quran (and admitted he’d read only one verse in the terrorists manifesto)

            Other vile shit I’ve tried to forget go look for yourself I’m done chasing this fuckers BS around. Hides behind word salad. Plays victim when caught.

            ‘is-it-racist-or-isn’t-it’

            Such an edgy guy. Wants to ‘open the conversation’.

            • Dennis Frank 1.2.1.2.1.1

              It’s what we learnt from chaos theory in the late eighties. Edge City. Became an influential habitat. Creativity emerges at the boundary between competing attractors, where both realms meet, both in nature and in human society. Scientific fact, inasmuch as any philosophical inference from a multitude of scientific research findings can be deemed fact. I get that it may seem too intellectual for you, but someone has to interpret this stuff for others, so I do it in situations where nobody else does…

              • WeTheBleeple

                Word salad.

                You lead the charge aye, golly gosh.

                No wonder our leaders are often useless, having advisers like you. Your tutors must be turning in their graves.

                Edges are where it’s at in biology too.

                But you are not edgy, I was being sarcastic, you are an ass.

                • Dennis Frank

                  Being continually abusive is bad for one’s mental health. There are helplines available nowadays. I hope you recover soon.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    It’s unfortunate that WTB has ‘taken a shine to you’, but to suggest that WTB needs help for mental health reasons is a low blow, no?

                    We’re all on the spectrum (or on many spectra) – try a little kindness, even toward those you believe are at the opposite end. Goes for WTB too, and their comment @1.3 indicates a capacity for self-analysis.

                    Tbh, WTBs comments are generally easier to follow than yours.

                    • cleangreen

                      Dennis Frank cant do ‘a little kindness’,

                      It is not possible to have any ‘human compassion’ (kindness) there – when you have a hard set agenda.

              • Gabby

                In praxis it comes across as sneery pompous blather franky. Is that part of the plan?

                • Dennis Frank

                  Produced by the law of unintended consequences, I suspect. Can’t help it. I do try to be reasonable but giving critical feedback when necessary is what my conscience requires me to do. If folks detect that kind of subtle impression then so be it. Evil prospers unless good people do what the situation requires…

      • Gabby 1.2.2

        It’s possible that Pullya wasn’t just toadying to the gun fetishists. Merc Mitchell might fancy running a wee security outfit to protect yankistani billionaires going forward.

    • WeTheBleeple 1.3

      Fine. Take a look at his posts since 15th and see if you think he is as he presents.

      Yes I could have been less hostile. Sorry to the author for the derailment.

      • WILD KATIPO 1.3.1

        Yeah your doing OK , man…

        Kudos to anyone who can recognize :

        …” Yes I could have been less hostile. Sorry to the author for the derailment ”…

        I can respect anyone who expresses that ,… we all are guilty of that from time to time… chief among them myself !

        Humility is truly a virtue , mate. It is a strength !

        • WeTheBleeple 1.3.1.1

          Hmmm. Is stating I’m not humble an ass-handed way of me feigning humility?

          I’m not humble but I really admire the trait in others and am trying to learn from them.

          Good leadership. It’s a vital part of the healing and growing process. Humility in leadership is empowering to people – except those who think they are ‘better than.’

  2. Ad 2

    Pretty weord seeing my tiny country become a significant turning point against the rise of the entire global hard right.

    • WeTheBleeple 2.1

      Their chickens are coming home to roost.

      It is entirely surreal though. And scary. Be vigilant.

    • Incognito 2.2

      The catalyst for change has to come from somewhere.

      It also shows the ridiculous argument about NZ taking a (principled) lead in combatting Climate Change despite we are supposedly only responsible for 0.2% or so of total global emissions.

      In fact, it shows that any change can start anywhere anytime …

    • mauī 2.3

      The rise of the right created by the ideology of extreme centrism…

  3. patricia bremner 3

    We all need to look at our prejudices and fears. To recognise how they began, to be better informed and far more inclusive. To meet and talk with people of differing faiths and races in our land, rather than accepting political or reported views. To report racism hate speech and physical bullying. To be strong. Kia kaha everyone.

    • Adrian Thornton 3.1

      I grew up working building sites all over the place and I can tell this one simple fact,,,many many more kiwis are racist than you would imagine, just give it a couple of days in the smoko room for everyone to relax..and then just watch the racist shit start to creep in…everytime it happens, maybe it’s different now, but I doubt it.

      Even as a kid I used to shut it down, I cannot not tolerate it around me, I guess that’s one of the reasons why I stopped working building sites, that and the incessant radio Hauraki playing the same songs over and over…it’s like Hendrix only wrote two tunes.

      • lprent 3.1.1

        Fortunately the only building sites I have been in were either family sites, or the army museum at Waiouru.

        But I have seen it when I’ve worked in factories – as often as not as a minority worker myself.

      • WeTheBleeple 3.1.2

        One of my (white) Professors left the building industry to become an academic because of racism. It’s so common it gets exhausting. Much less of that nonsense at university though the engineering Department seems an enclave of old boys.

        I got attacked at University by a White South African with Dreadlocks, as I’d made him shake the hand of an Indian friend months earlier. I was so confused I thought he was a white Rasta or something. Wrong…

        They wanted to kick him out I asked if mediation with some of their humanities staff was possible. He tried reach out to me after I saved his sad ass but he’d attacked me in the quad slapped my drink out of my hand and upset a lot of young people with a violent hateful spiteful diatribe. I wasn’t interested in making friends I’d tried help him assimilate there for quite some time before the incident.

        Everyone should be in a multicultural environment with team goals for at least part of their lives. Game changer for redneck attitudes.

        Sure hope dreadlock dude isn’t still in his disgustingly white parents basement hating on the ‘others’.

      • WILD KATIPO 3.1.3

        You must have struck a bad bunch because I have spent most of my life on construction sites as well. Even 20 years ago there was little evidence of people being particularly ‘racist’. We just all mucked in together.

        And I’m talking true blue working mans sweaty labouring. Hard yakka involving steel and concrete. There was the usual banter and camaraderie , hot cups of tea the smell of B.O and cuss words with things that wouldn’t budge or fit … they were great , simple times.

        All were welcome around our smoko table in the caravan out there in the bush. Not so many new contractors were willing to have a cup of tea from our old tannin stained ,beaten up and chipped porcelain tea pot, however.

        Then again, they were just pansy’s .

        • Adrian Thornton 3.1.3.1

          These were mainly big sites in and around AKL in the 80’s and 90’s, boom, and to be fair, later when I got into house moving I didn’t see that racism at all, but then again half our crews where usually Maori.

          • WILD KATIPO 3.1.3.1.1

            Lol… and wasn’t it fun when they were there 🙂

            So many of those Maori guys were hard doers and really had a sense of teamwork.

            I remember when sometime in the 1990’s things seemed to change… the workforce became tight lipped and kind of grim… looking back I now know the reason why,… it was after that titchy bitchy Ruth Richardson had introduced the Employment Contracts Act 1991.

            Best mates of Rodger Douglas and another like Douglas who sat on the Board of Executives of the London based Mont Pelerin Society.

            What a piece of dirt.

            What a society wrecker.

            New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
            http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

            • WeTheBleeple 3.1.3.1.1.1

              My favorite laboring work I used to do was crew work run by a Maori guy who married a Tongan woman, and their extended families. Laughing all day and smashing tour load out records by night.

              Awesome.

            • Adrian Thornton 3.1.3.1.1.2

              That is a great piece on the new right thanks, and spells out exactly the reason why I keep on saying on this site, that Ardern and NZ Labour cannot fix all the massive systemic problems we now face as a country through the obvious failure of New Zealand neoliberalism as it has been enacted by both Labour and National over the past 30 odd years, because Labour is itself a Neoliberal political party, end of story.

              Turn Labour Left!

        • KJT 3.1.3.2

          Didn’t see much on our sites. But, being Northland plenty of Maori .
          Lots of piss taking, which could have been misconstrued.
          Sailors are the worst at piss taking, but usually good natured.

      • Wensleydale 3.1.4

        I’m not a builder, but I work a similarly blue collar job, and you’re right. There’s a steaming wheelbarrow-load of racist crap that comes out in the workplace. It’s always couched in a jokey, “we’re all mates just having a laugh” sort of way, and there’s no actual malice behind it, but it’s definitely there. There are guys I work with who routinely refer to each other as ‘c**ts’ along with other similarly salty terms, but they’re usually fast friends. A lot of it is just workplace banter.

        I suspect many people who don’t work in a blue collar environment would find it ‘problematic’.

        • Adrian Thornton 3.1.4.1

          @Wensleydale, you make a great point there, yes I agree that there is a lot of pretty hard core work place banter in certain ‘blue collar’ workplaces, which I used to really enjoy and enjoyed participating in, and would never want to see that moderated or censored.
          However there used to be also a lot of out right racist talk on the sites I worked, often cleverly disguised within the banter, which when allow to take root, would often quickly degenerate into something a lot more overt.

          I am not sure if building sites are still like this, but that was my experience.

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    I’ve never wanted to contribute to Kiwiblog, but I was intrigued when someone mentioned that the massacre caused Farrar to change his policy on comments, so this morning I took a look at how he’s framing this. There are implications for transforming political culture in Aotearoa:

    “I have put comments on manual moderation, as the normal process of waiting for someone to complain about a comment was not ideal in this period. Having me manually approving every comment is not a long-term solution. But neither was the old system of having all comments appear automatically unless there were complaints about them. Because that means some unacceptable comments stay there.”

    “What I am announcing is a change which will give preference to people who post under their actual name. I post under my name. I believe doing so encourages me to be responsible. It makes you think a bit longer and harder about what you write before hitting publish. If you use your real name for comments, you will be given a status that allows your comments to appear automatically. There will be no delay. You’re still subject to moderation after the event if your comment breaches policies”.

    He then explains that those who use pseudonyms will have their comments “held for moderation until a moderator (currently just me) can view it and approve or decline it.
    The idea is to incentivise people to use their real names, but to still allow an alias.”

    “One can qualify for “auto-approve” status if you link your user profile to a page that identifies you, even if you use initials or an alias… At present no-one but me is on auto-approve status. If you wish to gain this status change your user profile (if necessary) to display your real name or a link to your identity and e-mail editor@kiwiblog.co.nz with your username. If I verify you, I will give you auto-approve status. I believe this change will be an improvement overall, even if not for everyone. As with any change I’ll review it over time.”

    This appears to be a genuine attempt by Farrar to perform cultural transformation to make his site non-toxic. He has since called for volunteers to co-moderate.

    • Cinny 4.1

      KB has been loose and vile with comments in the past, with just one moderator setting the standard. Shame it took the slaughter of 50 innocent people for him to pull his head in. Time will tell if his recent change of heart is damage control or genuine. JS

      Apologies if I sound like a cynic, but……

      • Adrian 4.1.1

        14 years is why it’s changed.

      • Morrissey 4.1.2

        Shame it took the slaughter of 50 innocent people for him to pull his head in.

        He has never written or said anything even slightly disapproving about the weekly massacres of medics, children and the disabled by the IDF on the Gaza border. He’s never manually moderated the stream of hatred in the comments after each of those killings.

    • Ad 4.2

      Voluntary speech regulation hasn’t worked.

      PM needs to overhaul BORA for the social media age.

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1

        “Voluntary speech regulation hasn’t worked.

        PM needs to overhaul BORA for the social media age.”

        To my knowledge there was no overhaul of BORA to protect vulnerable groups from hate speech after Michael ‘Kill All The Disabled’ Babies Laws declared his desire from such a pogrom on social media.

        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/12/12/how-much-of-an-arsehole-is-michael-laws/

        “Michael Laws
        Downs is a bad thing: its a serious disability. If we can eradicate it, we should.

        Keith Maynard
        Mr Laws your whole stand on this does seem very reminiscent of 1930’s Germany. We all know how well respected the Fuhrer is now. But you accuse me of being a fascist ? Ignorance is a far greater disability than Down Syndrome, and you Sir, are very obviously ignorant in this matter.

        Michael Laws
        You’re a complete retard raising Nazi Germany: normal parents don’t want Downs kids and I intend the expectant parents keep having the choice to abort them and that choice be Now promoted to them.”

        Okay. So Michael Laws is just one person promoting the eradication of a specific group of humans. He may not represent many…but the fact that what he espoused was not, and still is not (to my knowledge) considered hate speech says much about this country.

    • vto 4.3

      This is the historic practice of conservatives, of which Farrar and the National Party are full members.

      I have always said that conservatives don’t do anything.
      They don’t lead society.
      They can’t see the future.
      They are the ballast in the hold, nothing more, and people should not look to them for direction.

      Another way I always frame it is “always follow the hippies”.

      Where the hippies are is where society will be in a generation or so. Think Waiheke, think organic anything, think anti-nuke, equal marriage, think electric cars and rejection of consumerism, think climate change, think pollution. The list is long.

      The conservatives, like Farrar, RESIST AND REJECT ALL SUCH THINGS, until they finally realise that society has moved on without them and they need to catch up..

      ..cue Farrar and Kiwiblog…

      Farrar’s actions here are nothing more nor less than the useless and too-late actions of a full blow conservative.

      It is full evidence that one should never look to Farrar and National Party cohorts for anything that is about the future. NOTHING.

      Farrar is the ballast in the hold.

      • Dennis Frank 4.3.1

        “always follow the hippies”

        Good thinking. I only lasted three weeks on the Reef Point commune, but have endeavoured to maintain the values & attitudes from that era. Inclusion, for instance. Non-partisan. Non-violence. Consideration for others.

        Re Farrar, time will tell. Do conservatives change their spots? I share your scepticism, but I will be open to reframing on him if he provides good reason.

      • Sacha 4.3.2

        “always follow the hippies”

        Piss up, brewery.

      • WILD KATIPO 4.3.3

        I’m a bloody hippy , but I’m also a bloody head banger metal head from way back. bow hunter, bone and wood carver , guitar player in a metal band for six years and past self employed small business owner…

        But I wouldn’t just follow the hippies. They’ve been wrong before.

        What your talking about is many in the Lefts attempts to soften and influence politics, – to suit THEIR advantage. How many grey , short haired past 60 – somethings holding PHd’s are still banging on about peace ,love and natural foods while holding a fistful of rental property’s and voting every 3 years for the next neo liberal rich prick filled political party ?

        HEAPS.

        • WeTheBleeple 4.3.3.1

          No no don’t bash the hippies! Lol.

          What was that glib saying if you’re not a rebel by age ? you got no heart, and a conservative by age ? you got no brain.

          Pragmatics, ugggh. Not real hippies were they, just there for the sex drugs and rock and roll.

        • greywarshark 4.3.3.2

          Good point Wild K. I joined a co-operative (in a legal sense, but I hoped also a social-community sense) and have been disappointed by the small amount of personal time people have been willing or able to put in. There are people who are not sick, loaded with small children, eking out a life etc. who I thought would have been behind building an entity to be strong and a bellwether for the future. Their circumstances are such that they can travel, go overseas a bit, go tramping, but not available for mundane jobs which can be enjoyable done in a spirit of camaraderie.

          Your piece resonates with me. I have lessened my volunteering, feeling like a servant being made use of by the others who pride themselves on just being members onfwhat sounds like a nicely green project.
          many in the Lefts attempts to soften and influence politics, – to suit THEIR advantage. How many grey , short haired past 60 – somethings holding PHd’s are still banging on about peace ,love and natural foods

          And I still believe in peace, love and natural foods! Except that there is some backbone, practicality, forward-thinking, ethics and commitment involved in having these attributes, and they don’t always come in one package.

      • Robert Guyton 4.3.4

        I agree with vto.

    • marty mars 4.4

      There is a whole post on this isn’t there?

      DPF does the right thing

      not sure why you are trying to talk up that that horrible site but it takes all sorts I spose

      • vto 4.4.1

        I don’t think “it takes all sorts”, as in it takes all sorts to make society…

        It is more “all sorts exist”, as in all sorts exist in society

        but those sorts are not necessary, or desirable .

        as this time so amply amplifies

        • marty mars 4.4.1.1

          I was meaning the ‘sort’ that links to, and praises, a right wing blog on a left wing blog.

          • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.1.1

            But I did not praise the site. I notified the terms of change & the upside potential for improvement there. Marty, you keep failing to learn that misrepresentation is unethical.

      • Dennis Frank 4.4.2

        Talk it up?? Last thing I’d do. I was reporting the terms of the transformation. The only credible basis for talking it up will emerge if the transformation does actually work. Isn’t that obvious??

        Using real names provides a design for authenticity. Fake names are a recipe for abuse. You know this, right? Why has social media been designed to produce toxic culture via anonymity? If people are forced to be themselves, they can be held accountable for formenting an abusive social environment. Polluting society is a bad thing. Ad is right to suggest a legal remedy!

        • Cinny 4.4.2.1

          Dennis there’s a whole post/thread dedicated to it, maybe your comment is better placed there. JS

          PS It’s super easy to make a fake FB account etc, JS.

          • Dennis Frank 4.4.2.1.1

            I haven’t seen the thread you refer to, Cinny – can you be specific? Also, I did not mention Facebook. I’m not into that.

            • Cinny 4.4.2.1.1.1

              The thread I refer to… a link to which was kindly posted by Marty above at comment 4.4

              Your initial comment at 4… included this

              If you wish to gain this status change your user profile (if necessary) to display your real name or a link to your identity

              I was under that understanding that a link to ones identity was a willingness to provide a link to ones FB, hence my comment that it is easy to create a fake FB profile.

    • lprent 4.5

      I’ve always been in favour of the exact opposite policy. The reasons that I’ve favoured this were a direct response after observing typical online behaviours all the way back in the BBS and Usenet days.

      Essentially we leave the comments open, encourage people to not use these real names, don’t use logins, and then use active moderation as a feedback to encourage people to modify and moderate their own on-line behaviour.

      This encourages clear debate and leaves the consequences directly in the hands of the moderators about determining where the boundaries are. Because the moderators have to justify their actions to other moderators and even commenters, they moderate how they operate themselves. They also tend to get involved in the discussions.

      In particular it removes the incentive to assume a authority based on “real names”. On the net – which is a communications network, regardless of your experience, you have to make your logic clear as day because you can’t just say crap like “I know all about mass debating because I pulled my willie 15 times a day” – you have to say why it is relevant. Cutting off debate based on an assumed authority is just outright stupid, it just allows the bullshit artists a free rein.

      With pseudonyms, you clearly can’t use ‘authority’. To make it apparent that you know what in the hell you’re talking about, you need to actually explain the steps. Which means that they can be argued. It means that others can grasp the logic and apply it against their own experiences – which often disagree. It allows a much more robust (albeit more raucous) debate to unfold.

      One of the people that I learnt this from was actually David Farrar. In Usenet in nz.politics, he used to use do ‘real name’ and ‘experience’ quite a lot in the early to mid-90s when he was working around parliament. It was his classic close off the argument strategy, and he’d seldom even try to engage in discussion about it. It also irritatingly unhelpful in terms of getting to know what the other arguments were.

      Basically I think that his current change is just as unhelpful. The only thing that it encourages is laziness as it is doesn’t give any effort to the most important part of moderation. There is no feedback to the commenters about what they are doing wrong and how they have to change their behaviour inside the site. It actually provide even less feedback than is there now – and I pointed out a long time ago that his previous vote-down-and-hide strategy was just about designed to define a in-group that would become steadily more extremist.

      What he is adopting is the strategy that was used by Bomber and Whaleoil. It gives you a slow release of comments where the sole judgement on if a comment should be seen at all is given to a moderator – who is usually heavily over-worked, and who invariably winds up releasing the comments that they’d like to see. There is little feedback from the group of other commenters and other moderators to a moderator.

      I think that all it gets you a pretty moribund comments section without any obvious diversity. In usenet terms – a silo group.

      • WeTheBleeple 4.5.1

        I love the way this place works.

        I learn new things all the time here. And I get feedback when I’m wrong or out of line so I can evolve.

        It’s freaking awesome.

        • greywarshark 4.5.1.1

          When you evolve you will be awesome.

          Remember Delenn in Babylon 5? She was always growing, changing trying
          to understand.
          (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyf8SGFfrls

          • WeTheBleeple 4.5.1.1.1

            I am already awesome. Swearing too much and being emotional in this time is relatively normal. Mr reasonable’s casual racism and terrorist promotions was the real offensive content.

            I can respond better. I have not changed my mind about who he is.

      • Wayne 4.5.2

        Iprent,

        Could I ask you if you could make a post that asks for some restraint by some of the people who are regular commenters, especially during this week. There has been a fair bit of abuse from a variety of directions about anyone who does not agreee with them. And essentially trying to tie them to the “ideology” of the perpetrator of the terrible events of last week. It has got quite bad in the last couple of days.

        I appreciate the importance of free speech, but I would have thought it sensible, especially at this time, for some of your posters to tone back their inflammatory comments.

        Political leaders, and especially the PM, have shown that it is possible to show our better natures. Although the DPM may have made some inflammatory statements about immigration in the past (beyond what is appropriate in an immigration debate) he knows the importance of getting it right at the moment and not to politicise things. Somewhat more skilfully than the Australian PM.

        • WeTheBleeple 4.5.2.1

          I think you have a point and am sure you think my aggressive policing of persons propagating the terrorists manuscript is OTT.

          I cede I have been a bit too aggressive, but will not cede that: the document is garbage, and propagating it through media is detrimental.

          And I will try to curb myself and play the issues not the persons.

          Just keep in mind: This terrorist was not created in a vacuum.

        • Morrissey 4.5.2.2

          Wayne, it’s interesting to see you getting worked up about a few commentators being less than parliamentary in their language. You even affect to be concerned about “inflammatory comments.”

          Did you or your colleagues in government ever say anything after the staunchly pro-National Party broadcaster Paul Henry unleashed this torrent of racist abuse and incitement to violence in 2015?

          “Are you in favor of our troops being in Iraq?… It sends a very clear message that New Zealand is WITH the United States and the rest of the willing. Is this a fight worth having? You HAVE to say YES. … This is a fight that we have to be on the right side of, isn’t it? … We have to POUND them and SQUASH them don’t we? … Absolutely we should be part of the fight. And we have to really take it to them! … We have to be in there STRONG and HARD! We have to KILL THEM ALL! And in the course of this, bombs are going to bounce into tents where there are women and children! But we must not get up in arms about that! Kill them all! … Just on this ISIS thing again. THEY thrive because WE hesitate. They’re not LIKE us. … We need to KILL THEM ALL! And if some women and children get killed, so be it.”

          https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/04/we-need-to-kill-them-all-and-if-some.html

        • cleangreen 4.5.2.3

          Wayne
          Please refrain from using this grieving time to fire “cheap shots at your hated MP’s” please!!!!

          • Anne 4.5.2.3.1

            Come off it, Morrissey and cleangreen. Wayne is correct to ask for the more inflammatory language to be curbed this week. Everyone will be free to have their say within reason after the week is over.

            How about respect for everyone on both sides of the political coin who – despite their heated comments of the past – are unified in their hurt, anger and sorrow. Wayne is having cheap shots at nobody.

            Thanks for the request Wayne. Apart from Daily Review , I have avoided TS in recent days and I note other regulars seem to have too.

          • Wayne 4.5.2.3.2

            I haven’t criticised a single MP. They have all conducted themselves extremely well during this time. And I think they have all served as model of good conduct.

            In the case of the PM, truly exceptional, which has been properly recognised around the world.

            My comment was directed at some of the comments that have been posted on this site in the last few days. Some have been more provocative than they need to be, as if trying to provoke a reaction. I just suggest that people tone it down a bit.

        • KJT 4.5.2.4

          I don’t normally agree with Wayne. What his Government did to my workmates, friends, neighbours, and community, in the 90’s, after it was started by Labour, was unforgiveable, and irreparable
          But i have to agree, terrorists’ come in all shapes sizes and flavours. Not necessarily left, right, Muslim, Christian or any other ism.
          It is not unique to any one group.
          I have already resisted an attempt to “othering” the mentally ill. Though some who have little comprehension of “othering”, and its damaging effects, didn’t get it.

          The relief that it was an Australian, RWNJ, Nutjob, I.e. “Not one of us” is palpable.

          The point is, it could easily been one of us. I know people who were destroyed by the 80’s and 90’s reforms who talked about shooting up the ones responsible.
          They were only collateral damage in Waynes brave new world. I could understand and agree with, the anger, even though I advocated voting the buggers out. And to head more towards Democracy with MMP.
          Not violence.

          Shooting and bombing just makes things worse.

        • lprent 4.5.2.5

          Wayne:

          Could I ask you if you could make a post that asks for some restraint by some of the people who are regular commenters, especially during this week. There has been a fair bit of abuse from a variety of directions about anyone who does not agreee with them.

          Any author can write a post requesting that. Other authors may disagree usually by writing their own post. Commenters may (respectfully) disagree stating their reasons why on either the post or OpenMike.

          Any author can moderate on their own post.

          Any editor or above can moderate anywhere subject to an admin override and whatever disagreement may happen between authors and mods at the backend.

          But that isn’t something that I, as one of the super admins, can actually do. I just follow and interpret the policy (unless there is an emergency that needs something fixed in a hurry – and I’ll do that following the principles of the policy).

          As an author and a mod as well, I’ll have my say in setting it – but I cannot impose. If I see a general agreement then I’ll add it to the policy and follow it myself (or leave).

          There are a few obvious analogies for my position that you would be aware of.

          Currently there isn’t anything in the policy about getting people to be nice to each other – unless it gets in the way of the site’s other policies.

          Like this thread that I moved to OpenMike.

        • Muttonbird 4.5.2.6

          Meh! Own it.

        • Incognito 4.5.2.7

          Hi Wayne, I agree with your observations on the recent tenour here. I have an incomplete draft post on free speech and public discourse but I lack the energy and the guts to face the prospects of people talking past each other and not really listening …

          Maybe another time when tempers have calmed down …

      • Dennis Frank 4.5.3

        Hmm, well, I’ll wait & see if he can steer his ship into calmer waters. I agree with Wayne’s suggestion, since the Kiwiblog copycat syndrome always seems evident here via the behaviour of a bunch of commentators…

        Incidentally I just noticed you shifted WTB’s response to something I wrote, but it showed up at the top of OM rather than the bottom, seeming to obliterate what had been there. Might be worth checking to see if the early posts to OM got deleted in that process.

        • lprent 4.5.3.1

          Incidentally I just noticed you shifted WTB’s response to something I wrote, but it showed up at the top of OM rather than the bottom…

          The order is just based on the time stamp.

          Writing the ‘to Open Mike’ code that took a designated comment and ALL subsidiary comments and all subsequent replies (including those in the process of being written at the time of the move) was hard enough. Especially since it also had to search for the most current visible Open Mike to insert it into.

          Trying to get it to insert at the time of the transfer would have required me to either modify the timestamp on the shifted comment or to change the ordering mechanism for comments on all posts to use another criteria than timestamp.

          Bearing in mind the usual detail carping that would show up every few months if I’d done either, I simply minimized the change.

          Humans seldom realize just how their hardwired wetware simplifies some of these processes that dumb machines find so difficult. It took more than a full day to write and test that code. That day was on my 3rd attempt at the task. A child could have been taught to do it manually in a fraction of the time.

          Where the machines have it all over humans is that once taught and if their environment remains constant, machines can keep doing it without innovating it out of existence.

          From memory I managed to do that code back in 2010/11 and it has worked without modification for the last 8-9 years.

          • Dennis Frank 4.5.3.1.1

            Oh I see, automation. Seemed like something went missing in the process but too bad if so, no real problem…

            Re “once taught and if their environment remains constant, machines can keep doing it without innovating it out of existence.” They can, but often don’t.

            Complex systems often develop blurgles (not a word). I recall these were once called gremlins. For instance, my local computer dudes, who have proved to be sufficiently technosavvy to have successfully solved all my computer problems, done all routine maintenance & upgrades, finally got stumped by a blurgle in the “bios”. It causes the laptop to refuse to respond to the turn-on, but to go into consideration mode – eventually turning on after having considered the issue for several hours.

            Chaos, emerging naturally in ordered systems. No out-right refusal to operate as yet, so the device occupies a realm somewhere in between order & chaos.

    • Adrian Thornton 4.6

      I like this bit….
      ““What I am announcing is a change which will give preference to people who post under their actual name. I post under my name. I believe doing so encourages me to be responsible. It makes you think a bit longer and harder about what you write before hitting publish”

      I personally don’t understand why people on political blogs and forums don’t use their real names, if not, to me it implies that they often don’t really stand behind what they say.

      A good case in point that guy Charlie who came onto the Standard yesterday from out of nowhere and called me a cunt, ( The power of compassionate politics 10.3.1.1,)
      I was little taken aback by that, so offered to meet him to discuss this matter personally, he of course declined my invitation …no only hiding behind the anonymity of his computer gave him the courage to call me a cunt.

      • Gabby 4.6.1

        Well that’s charlie for you, a right little shitweasel.

      • WeTheBleeple 4.6.2

        I prefer the level of anonymity here as if someone is a dangerous nutjob who disagrees with you they can’t turn up on your door.

        Vigilante activity and mob mentality is all part of the internet too.

      • Molly 4.6.3

        There have been quite a few threads (possibly posts) on the Standard that note the positives of having pseudonyms for both authors and commenters.

        Given the moderation rules and nature of this platform, I think the most persuasive is that comments and posts can be evaluated on content rather than pre-conceived notions of the person, or unconscious bias. Also, was the fact that on a political blog – there are those who have employment or social repercussions from speaking freely, and the use of pseudonyms allows them to do so.

        I think as long as the site has adequate moderation rules, and is effectively moderated the benefits of pseudonyms for aiding discussion are worthwhile.

        • Molly 4.6.3.1

          I see lprent responded to this earlier, and much more comprehensively than I did.

        • RedLogix 4.6.3.2

          Excellent points. As a very long time regular here I’ve tended to promote self-moderation as the best approach.

          Perhaps one way to look at it is like this; imagine if god-forbid someone associated with the left had committed an atrocity like last Friday. Unlikely at the present moment I accept, but not impossible.

          Imagine the scrutiny that this site would come under from the wider media and public. Consider how many incautious and emotional things have been said that could so easily be twisted and interpreted in the worst possible fashion by an aggrieved public.

          Or in simple terms, the old rule about emails might apply here; never write anything that you could not defend if it appeared on the front page of tomorrow’s Herald.

          • Molly 4.6.3.2.1

            “Or in simple terms, the old rule about emails might apply here; never write anything that you could not defend if it appeared on the front page of tomorrow’s Herald.”
            One of my life rules, which applies to any writing.

            For clarity, my given name is not “Molly” although I answer to it, I’m assuming “RedLogix” is not your own?

            • RedLogix 4.6.3.2.1.1

              It’s the handle I sort of randomly chose when I got here 12 years ago. I’ve pondered changing it from time to time, but it’s what people know me as now.

              I’ve contemplated going to my real life name as well several times; and I’ve tried that on some other blogs. It’s what I happily use at the tramping community site I also participate on.

              Personally I fully support Lynn’s interpretation above; and his point about the assumed authority attached to real names is rather interesting and I’ve never seen him make that before.

              At the same time, using pseudonyms is a privilege not a right; and over the years I’ve taken to be more responsible with how I use it. For certain there are plenty of moments lurking in the deep dark bowels of The Standard’s servers I would prefer vanish in a puff of nebulous nibbles.

              • Molly

                The question was tongue-in-cheek, but thanks for the reply.

                I’ve also changed perspective on a few issues since being on TS. We always need to give people opportunities to learn and change their opinion, including ourselves, else what is the point of ongoing discussion?

              • greywarshark

                The thing about real names is that they are only apparent. The other bloggers wouldn’t know unless there was a profile and people checked on that information like private investigators.

                We know who Michael Savage is, and mickysavage is a reference to the great Michael, and it would be expected a connection with his thinking. It is a pseudonym but so would Michael Savage be. We know the MS is dead, but it could be another Michael Savage, so still confusing.

                Real names might make a difference to the sysop – he/she might know who the person is and if the apparent real name is just a pseudo. But to us commenters John Smith or Calliope Teschenski – we wouldn’t know if they are real.

                What is real is someone sticking to their pseudonym and gradually you can see their mind’s signature written in their phrases, their thinking, their concerns and prejudices and their humour and self-deprecation, if any.

                • Incognito

                  What is real is someone sticking to their pseudonym and gradually you can see their mind’s signature written in their phrases, their thinking, their concerns and prejudices and their humour and self-deprecation, if any.

                  Yes, you can almost recognise a commenter by their idiosyncrasies 😉

                  Unfortunately, and this is a typical human trait, we project stuff onto faceless names that is almost always completely wrong. Yet, we form an ‘opinion’ of them and this has a major influence on how we respond (or not!) to their comments. Many are seemingly unaware of this influence. You start to see the repetitive patterns, the predictability, how one commenter reacts to another almost irrespective of what’s written in the comment, which is often innocuous or just banal but nothing to lose your rag over or to flip your lid.

                  Ok, enough said; your comment lured me of my ‘hiding’.

        • Siobhan 4.6.3.3

          Pseudonyms/anonymity encourage toxic disinhibition.
          That’s just a fact.
          And anyone who thinks that moderation as practiced on TS is able to, or in many cases, even attempts to quell such things is either lying or delusional.
          Adrian references a particular incident that needn’t be repeated. Anyone who moderates care to explain how that works though?

          And I do acknowledge and respect the reasons people do infact use Pseudonyms in such a small country/world , but it is more of an unfortunate necessity rather than something to promote.

          • Molly 4.6.3.3.1

            “Pseudonyms/anonymity encourage toxic disinhibition.”
            I disagree.

            I think there is something to be said for the expected reception – whether it will be accepting of what is said, or whether it provokes an anticipated reaction. Many people – such as Hoskings – are able to do both, and create a tribal response to those that like him – and those that don’t – that drown out many instances of people who make attempts to take apart his rhetoric and explain why it is wrong.

            The points lprent makes above are valid.

            Incidents of provocation or ill-judged moderation are few and far between, and whether I agree with them or not, moderation decisions are usually always explained.

            I’m not a fan of stopping speech, would rather promote – and have broadcasters that promote – considered analysis skills.

            The ‘benefit’ of having visitors such as Southern, Molyneux etc here, is that we get some indication of the number of New Zealanders that consider their rhetoric to be so persuasive that they will pay to see it repeated in person.

            The benefit of having pseudonyms on TS, is that you develop a liking/dislike for the way someone thinks, and find out that it is possible to disagree with others that you are often in accord with, rather than making assumptions from the beginning.

          • greywarshark 4.6.3.3.2

            Siobhan
            I think you are a woman. In the early days of this colony there were women who went against the conformity of their day to speak out, regularly publishing in the newspapers of that time, under a pseudonym. They had enough education, enough experience of life and the effect of class and gender hegemony, enough standing in the community, to see that change was needed in social and cultural life.

            It would have been impossible socially for her, and her husband if she had used her real name. So the reason that much has changed for the better for women, is it has been initiated by this woman and others, mostly using pseudonyms; or having circumstances that could protect themselves against the antipathy if not hostility, of society.

            If a person has enough backing, standing, independent income, they can thumb their nose at society and push their toxic disinhibition at will (like Fraser Anning et al.) The rest of us do not have the padding of hubris, pretentiousness and wealth when earnestly putting forward ideas for doing things differently, and possibly better.

      • Kay 4.6.4

        “I personally don’t understand why people on political blogs and forums don’t use their real names, if not, to me it implies that they often don’t really stand behind what they say.”

        @Adrian- it’s a bloody small country and some of us need to stay anonymous online, and under the radar in general. It doesn’t always mean we want to. I’m not a prolific poster here but what I have said, I’ve got a hell of a lot at risk were someone to google my name and linked to it.

        An example, during the previous regime, there’s no way on earth that any beneficiary in this country could openly criticise Winz or the Minister online without the very real risk of backlash by said agency. It was common knowledge we were being spied on online. Even now there’s no way we’d risk it. Also, most of us would like to be able to comment on these matters without announcing to the world our status there. It also seriously puts at risk future rentals. Sad, but reality.

        • Adrian Thornton 4.6.4.1

          Fair enough, I guess it is up to each individual as to what risks they are prepared to take in their personal life, still it is annoying when that privilege is used to cover the tracks of people like Charlie.

      • KJT 4.6.5

        You do understand what happens to those who are, outed, as being left wing in many jobs, don’t you?
        What happened to Nicky Hagar is only the tip of the iceberg.
        Right wing commentators pretty much say what they like, and get lucrative jobs in television, to boot.
        Raise your head, as even mildly leftish, in many corporates and you will find yourself in the back office, or without a job. Or getting a visit from plod. Has happened to friends in the civil service, also.

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.6.5.1

          Could be time to actually define what is mean’t by “left wing”?

          I understand vulnerable people (especially those reliant on state assistance) having to be cautious about raising their heads above the ramparts…but to utilise the protection of a pseudonym to merely preserve position, high income or status seems, well, more ‘right’ than ‘left’.

          • KJT 4.6.5.1.1

            We all have to make a living.
            In my case, there are rather a lot of people dependant on me, my income and my position. I am more concerned for them, in fact.

            I do think people should put their money where their mouth is though.
            Comfortable middle class chardonnay socialists and “centralists” cold bloodedly saying the working poor and those without jobs should just wait, until our, supposedly left leaders, grow a spine, at some unspecified time, give me the shits. Meanwhile, I do what I can.

    • Robert Guyton 4.7

      I’ve been proposing this on Kiwiblog, Keeping Stock and YourNZ forever and without fail attracting opprobrium for my efforts. As vto says and those conservative bloggers should do – follow the hippies!
      (““What I am announcing is a change which will give preference to people who post under their actual name. I post under my name. I believe doing so encourages me to be responsible. It makes you think a bit longer and harder about what you write before hitting publish”)

      • Dennis Frank 4.7.1

        Good to hear. What’s your view of the rationale for the modus operandi here, as outlined by the response from LPrent?

        • Robert Guyton 4.7.1.1

          If an individual is comfortable using their real name, they can chose to do so. If another is not, they should be free to use a pseudonym. All should behave as if they were using their real names, imo.

    • Muttonbird 4.8

      This appears to be a genuine attempt by Farrar to perform cultural transformation to make his site non-toxic. He has since called for volunteers to co-moderate.

      You have painted it in a very nice light there. Another angle is that he’s made a frank admission that the blog he has run for 15 years is a racist cesspool of hateful humanity and he’s finally been forced to address it.

      Didn’t last long though, before the posts generalising and minimising fault began to appear.

  5. Ad 5

    Having acquired this much (albeit unwanted) political capital, I’m hoping Prime Minister Ardern can spend it on more than gun control.

    • marty mars 5.1

      Let’s just get the weapons sorted first eh

      • Ad 5.1.1

        Never waste a crisis.

        • arkie 5.1.1.1

          We don’t control the oceans, but we can learn to surf

          • Ad 5.1.1.1.1

            The classic parallel is to Prime Minister Key and his reaction to the Pike River Coal Mine tragedy.

            What occurred from the following Royal Commission was a set of powerful legislative changes that have altered the entire construction, forestry, and heavy manufacturing industries of New Zealand.

            It made company Directors personally liable for Health and Safety breaches if they were bad enough. As a result, from the major corporates to the tiniest tinpot Hilux-wheelbarrow subbie, everyone has had to change the entire health and safety culture of New Zealand.

            That was a really good result for us all.

            (And then there was that governments’ response to Christchurch, which is another story altogether.

            Point is, the massive emotional goodwill Prime Minister is orchestrating for us all needs to be more than effect a very narrow sector of society. She needs to show delivery for the political capital that she is building.

            • arkie 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Agreed.

              I am glad that the PM has so strongly set precedent across the world. We have seen the sickening depths to which society can reach but the PM has drawn a line and said “not a fathom deeper”. This bodes well IMO.

        • marty mars 5.1.1.2

          Seems slightly disrespectful to the horrendous murders and immense pain to me

          • greywarshark 5.1.1.2.1

            If political actions are taken to improve the lot of not only new immigrants and refugees but also those living here longer, plus all of NZ except the satisfaction-impaired, I am sure that the dead wouldn’t complain.

            We could dedicate each new policy for the people to the remembrance of the effect of the Muslims nobility on the whole of the country. Because they have been sad and sorry, and have borne that quietly, and not turned anger on us which would have been an understood effect.

          • Muttonbird 5.1.1.2.2

            Slightly?

    • gsays 5.2

      Hi Ad, what are you suggesting the Premiere spends this capital on?

  6. Cinny 6

    Another doing damage control by twisting the narrative is the aussie PM.

    Am not defending Erdogan by any means, but scomo’s actions and words are only stoking the fire.

    Scomo retaliating against Erdogan is merely an attempt to turn the focus away from Scomo’s track record of Islamophobia and the guilt of the terrorist being an aussie.

    Erdogan is in election campaign mode, and naturally rather pissed off re the terrorist attack. IMHO his airing of the footage is not helpful. But I can understand him being angry enough to say if anyone comes to Turkey and does such things they will be leaving in a coffin.

    Meanwhile we have Winston, and personally in this situation, having him as our Foreign Minister is a massive blessing. All the best to Winston when he heads over to Turkey, am sure he will do us proud as a nation, he’s magic in this role.

    PS I don’t think much of Erdogan his record of locking up journalists deeply disturbs me.

    • Shadrach 6.1

      Nah. SComo is showing courage in the face of a dangerous mongrel. Our leaders are doing a Chamberlain.

      • CC 6.1.1

        Get a grip Sadsack. It is that sort of thinking that led to the Christchurch massacre and the opposite that is gaining international respect!

        • Shadrach 6.1.1.1

          “Erdogan said any Australians and New Zealanders traveling to Turkey with anti-Muslim sentiments would be sent back in coffins “like their grandfathers” were in the Gallipoli campaign.”
          https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/turkeys-erdogan-sparks-spat-with-australia-new-zealand/ar-BBV1ygX?ocid=spartandhp

          You approve of that threat?

          “Erdogan has also sparked outrage abroad by screening at his campaign rallies excerpts of a video taken by the gunman who killed 50 people in mosques in Christchurch,”

          You approve of that too?

          • Gabby 6.1.1.1.1

            I think their grandfathers are still in Turkey shadders, otherwise all those crosses are a bit pointless. Does ErdyGerdy not know that?

            • Shadrach 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Maybe he doesn’t. It doesn’t change the sentiment of what he said.

              • In Vino

                Seems to me that Ergodan must be getting old… Most terrorist-aged people nowadays would have had great-grandfathers at Gallipoli, and their grandfathers might have been at El Alamein or Monte Cassino…

          • Molly 6.1.1.1.2

            When I read the first articles on Erdogan’s speech, it included more of his context and preamble before the selected quoted phrase in the article you linked to.

            It appeared to say: if you come to Turkey with the intent of causing harm – then you face the consequences, like your ANZAC’s did.

            There is a newshub article along those lines, with a fuller quote but googling comes up with the part-quote, response and outrage which dominate the results pages.

            Strangely, a good example of cherry-picking and inflammatory responses being more newsworthy than the reality.

            An emotive response – not particularly helpful – but understandable in context.

            (I have been to Gallipoli and was – even at a very young and selfish age – humbled by the care and hospitality shown to us by the Turkish people, and the significance they not only allowed, but generously gave to our fallen.)

            • Shadrach 6.1.1.1.2.1

              I too have been to Gallipoli-a moving experience indeed.

              I don’t give Erdogan the latitude you do, particularly when his comments are placed in the context of his wider attacks on democracy.

              • Molly

                Your linked article cropped the comment and took it out of context.

                It is an indication of how perspectives are encouraged in media that are inflammatory and divisive. Googling for the original articles delivered only the responses and the part quote. We need to insist on better reporting.

                I’m not an Erdogan fan, but the responses to his (inadequately quoted) words indicate the failure of many to react with the compassion the situation demands, and achieves nothing but a divisive dialogue.

                The ANZACs were invaders in Turkey. Yet, our dead are treated like their own. In contrast, we don’t even acknowledge Maaori lost in many of our own Land War memorials. Tangata Whenua. Not named, usually not even counted accurately, while the memorial usually names all lost by the Crown.

                There are different directions we can take when incidents like this occur. One is towards understanding and reconciliation. The other is towards division and outrage.

                We should be able to handle the emotive responses of one man, in such a way that his rhetoric changes, and it seems that has already happened.

                • Shadrach

                  How can Erdogan screening footage of the shooting be taken out of context? Look at Erdogan’s actions overall. They are the work of a very dangerous individual if you value democracy, but fairly typical across much of the Islamic world.

                  • Molly

                    We can’t control anyone else’s responses to this tragedy, but we have control over our own.

                    Getting into an argument with another country over the atrocity committed is a choice, choosing to try and reconcile and and try and defuse the rhetoric is another.

                    I’m not talking about how Erdogan conducts himself. I am talking about how NZ conducts itself.

                    • Shadrach

                      Reconciling with despots is appeasement. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

                    • Molly

                      What response do you suggest would be suitable for current and future peace?

                      (And while you only raised the issue of Erdogan’s comment, and how outrageous it was – you ignored the fact that is was abbreviated and taken out of context. Then you diverted into the premise of Erdogan as a despot. While I gave credence to NZ’s response of reconciliation, you offer ….? What is the end result that you are looking for here?)

                    • Shadrach

                      “What response do you suggest would be suitable for current and future peace?”
                      Call out mongrels like Erdogan. Peace is not achieved by allowing leaders such as him the oral ascendency.

                      “…you ignored the fact that is was abbreviated and taken out of context.”
                      No, it wasn’t. Erdogan has no reason to claim anyone in the countries involved in Gallipoli are going to take on the Muslims in Turkey. He is using the Christchurch tragedy to try to win an election. It’s sick.

                    • Molly

                      You have now changed this thread from condemning his abbreviated comment to focusing on the broadcast of the footage, and his overall leadership and behaviour.

                      I agree that the footage broadcasting is beyond the pale, but it is separate to the supposed threats to visitors to his country that you initially highlighted, which is what I commented on. Pointing out that it was taken out of context, and abbreviated – and – that most Google search results were of the responses and outrage rather than the more informative full text and context.

                      “Erdogan has no reason to claim anyone in the countries involved in Gallipoli are going to take on the Muslims in Turkey. He is using the Christchurch tragedy to try to win an election. It’s sick.” Many leaders around the world are consistently making xenophobic remarks, and a good proportion of those follow up that rhetoric with devastating actions. How we respond may influence those voting in whether his inflammatory speech and actions are accepted – or rejected.

                      I hope New Zealand’s efforts to reassure all Turkish people that we consider their safety to be of paramount importance when they are in our country will go some way to lessen the pain of the loss of some of their countrymen.

                      You haven’t said “how” you would call him out, and what you honestly think the result would be.

                      For me, the calling out would result in a tit-for-tat globally reported back and forth, that most likely would escalate the rhetoric and the harm, both politically in Turkey and here for Turkish New Zealanders. The benefit of “calling out” in this particular instance, is outweighed by the likely harm.

          • reason 6.1.1.1.3

            Erdogen is a bad man, re his actions towards the ” terrorist” Kurds …. and his involvement in Syria s bloodbath ( approx 10,000X and more greater amounts of misery, than the suffering from christchurch ) ….

            but why would you criticize him for expressing this sentiment ….”Erdogen “Referring to a “manifesto” posted online by the attacker, he said Turkey will return “in coffins” anyone who tried to take the battle to Istanbul.”

            “The video, which was blurred but had clear sounds of automatic gunfire, has been shown to thousands of people at the rallies and aired live on Turkish television, ”

            https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/385088/erdogan-says-attackers-targeting-turkey-will-go-home-in-caskets

            Erdogen ” If you come as well with the same intentions, have no doubt. We will send you back like your grandfathers.”

            Anzac Middle East History

            http://www.palestinechronicle.com/the-sarafand-massacre-and-cover-up/

            “That night, hundreds of enraged New Zealander, Australian and Scottish soldiers set upon the village separating the women and children then viciously attacked the men folk with bayonets, clubs, chains and sticks and set alight the village and the nearby Bedouin camp.”

            “The Anzacs refused to cooperate with the subsequent British investigation, leading General Allenby to condemn them as ‘a lot of cowards and murderers’.”

            “darkies”, “niggers” and “wogs” (as ANZAC diarists conditioned by racist ideology often described Egyptians” ….and Palastinians / Arabs.

            “The raid was carefully planned and ruthlessly carried out by men who knew the war was over and that the victims presented no threat to them. Reluctantly, I must conclude that the purpose of the raid was to kill as many Arab men as possible.” Kinloch

            The distraught and grief-ravaged women were newly widowed, children fatherless, all homeless….and the soldiers had vanished into the darkness of a military cover-up.

            Cover-ups are a reprehensible part and parcel of military history and testimonies collected on Australian Military History of the Early 20th Century: Desert Column site are tainted with fundamental lies and racist justifications that have become the prototype for subsequent historical and newspaper accounts of the Sarafand Massacre:

            The killer’s footsteps that led to the collective punishment of Sarafand villagers Despite there being no witnesses to the shooting of Lowry and no one saw the killer run to Sarafand, all accounts report that the footsteps of the killer were followed and led directly to the village.

            In fact, no footsteps could have been followed from the camp as Palestinian terrain is too rocky. This is substantiated by the Uri Zackhem film, “Tracing all that remains of the destroyed village of Sarafand al Kharab, Palestine”

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/anzac-troops-take-revenge-arab-civilians-surafend

            “No one from the ANZAC Mounted Division was prosecuted for the atrocity as the soldiers, standing as one, didn’t cooperate with the bland inquiry, denying participation” http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2675357/Old-words-cast-fresh-light-on-Anzac-atrocity

            Half of the quotes ,,,, and the context of history … is missing in your one eyed Islamophobic posts ….. shradcock…

            • Shadrach 6.1.1.1.3.1

              My criticism is in the context of Erdogans wider attacks in democracy. He seems to be trying to outdo Modi in stripping away the rights of minorities.

              • reason

                Why didn’t you just say so ….. it sounded like you thought harsh words against those traveling to Turkey to do harm to Muslims there was beyond the pale.

                Erdogens a bad man for sure ….. criticize him for the truly bad things …. there is screes to chose form

                Google fisk + Erdogan for instance

                https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/14/torture-brutality-and-police-crime-in-erdogans-turkey/

                “In 2014, the Isis siege of the Syrian Kurdish town of Kobani began and the Kurds immediately suspected that Erdogan was more interested in destroying them than destroying Isis. The PYD (Democratic Unionist Party, part of the PKK) were surrounded but the Turkish government newspaper Sabah was already saying that the PYD was “more dangerous than Isis”. The Kurds were outraged. They suspected that Turkey was arming Isis – and proved it when the Turkish police stopped four lorries sent to the border by the Turkish intelligence service, carrying up to 30 missiles, more than 20 crates of mortar ammunition and anti-aircraft guns. Erdogan said he would make the editor of Cumhiryet– who had revealed the arms smuggling operation – “pay a heavy price”. Not the act of an innocent man,….”

      • Gabby 6.1.2

        ScoMoFo is jumping at the channce to look toughguy to the Anningites shadders. Our leaders are passing up on feeding the bullshit machine.

        • Shadrach 6.1.2.1

          Oh really? Well interestingly I’ve just seen this:

          “Our deputy prime minister will be confronting those comments in Turkey,” Ardern told reporters in Christchurch. “He is going there to set the record straight, face-to-face.”
          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newzealand-shootout-erdogan-idUSKCN1R10B6

          Credit where credit’s due. You won’t be happy though.

          • Gabby 6.1.2.1.1

            Face to face as opposed to bravely blathering in the media ScoMoFo style shadders. I’m always happy. Cheerful little fucker I am.

            • Shadrach 6.1.2.1.1.1

              That’s good. It’s a beautiful day in my neck of the words – no reason to be glum!

          • reason 6.1.2.1.2

            Is this the bit that really sticks in your shaft /throat shadick ????

            ” Erdogan told the OIC that the empathy and reaction displayed by New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern since the incident “should be an example to world leaders.”

            Erdogen ….. :” On behalf of my country, I offer my condolences to the Islamic world and the people of New Zealand, who have been targeted by this deplorable act – the latest example of rising racism and Islamophobia.” https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384829/christchurch-shootings-world-leaders-saddened-and-angered-by-mosque-attacks

            “Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu, who was in Christchurch and visited Turkish citizens wounded in the attack, said Muslims around the world were worried about Islamophobia and racism.”

            “A senior Turkish security source said the accused Christchurch gunman had entered Turkey twice in 2016 – for a week in March and for more than a month in September. Turkish authorities have begun investigating everything from hotel records to camera footage to try to ascertain the reason for his visits, the source said.”

            • Shadrach 6.1.2.1.2.1

              If I wanna the PM, Erdogan would not be someone I would want praising me. A bit like having Hitler say he likes your ethnic policies.

              • reason

                Every usa president since WWII would have been found guilty at the Nuremburg / Nazi trials …. should we have had nothing to do with them ??

                Your all over the place ….. like a Islamophobic trying to back up your shit racism

                • Shadrach

                  “Every usa president since WWII would have been found guilty at the Nuremburg / Nazi trials ”
                  Rubbish.

                  “…like a Islamophobic trying to back up your shit racism…”
                  Islam is not a race, it is a religion. A religion with a relatively recent history of violence and horrendous human rights abuses. When we have Islamic leaders across a nation such as the US calling for death to the Jews, we really do have a problem, don’t you think?

                  • reason

                    So the video above does not show a relatively recent history of violence and horrendous human rights abuses ?? …. what kind of freak are ya Shradick

                    More details of war crimes , violence and horrendous human rights abuses for you to be blind about … like a horrible one eyed dick gummed up with your own rotten rubbish .

                    “ Martin Luther King : “My country is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world”

                    Mandela describing Usa : “If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocitiesubn the world, it is the USA. They don’t care for human beings”

                    “If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.” ― Noam Chomsky”

                    • Shadrach

                      The 32 minute video you posted looks like a parody. Post something credible and you might get my attention.

      • Morrissey 6.1.3

        “Scomo” is devoid of courage, and devoid of character.

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/11/three-thoughtful-kiwi-commentatorswell.html

        • Shadrach 6.1.3.1

          So you too condone Erdogan’s comments?

          • Morrissey 6.1.3.1.1

            I do not condone his comments. My concern was with you claiming that Scott Morrison, a moral coward if ever there was one, displays “courage”.

            • Adrian Thornton 6.1.3.1.1.1

              Howdy Morrissey, nice bit on your bean report yesterday, quite unnerving at how many people in the media don’t seem to see the obvious correlation that their unquestioning support of any western war, bombing and/or intervention leads directly to a hate of us in those countries and fuels racism in ours…
              Who takes Hillary Barry seriously when she counsels us to “call out and confront hate”? (Mar. 20, 2019)
              https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/03/who-takes-hillary-barry-seriously-when.html

            • Shadrach 6.1.3.1.1.2

              His comments do display courage. And they are a timely reminder of the dangers posed by some leaders on the planet.

              • Morrissey

                His comments do display courage.

                You’ve obviously never encountered the imbecilic Scott Morrison. Someone who has had that distasteful experience is the world-renowned Israeli journalist Gideon Levy:

                “In Canberra last week I met some Australian members of parliament. It gave me hope, because until I heard them speak I had always thought that Israel’s right wing politicians were the worst. —-(LAUGHTER)— I’ve never heard any Israeli politician speak about the Palestinian people the way that those Australian politicians did. But they are Australia’s problem, not mine. (LAUGHTER) I spoke with the Australian foreign minister; she talked and she was very nice but we could not agree on anything.” (LAUGHTER)

                —-Gideon Levy, speaking in Auckland, Dec. 3, 2017
                https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2017/12/unbelievable-brutality-day-after-day.html

                • Shadrach

                  For goodness sake, we’re discussing one comment! SCoMo isn’t trying to win Miss World.

                  • Molly

                    For goodness sake, we’re discussing on comment! ScoMo Erdogan isn’t trying to win Miss World.

                    Not entirely consistent with your reasoning are you?

                    • Shadrach

                      It isn’t one comment with Erdogan. That’s the point! Erdogan has a history of undermining democratic rights of the citizens of Turkey. His comment, and his now repeated playing of the video from the Chch shootings is disgraceful.

                      And our deputy PM didn’t even mention it to him. Gutless. Unlike ScoMo, who has showed real intestinal fortitude.

              • Cinny

                Shadrach, in this instance i think we may have to agree to disagree.

                I feel the way scomo has reacted could further inflame said issue in Aussie, 2005 Cronulla riots springs to mind. None of us want that to happen.

                In 2011, scomo reportedly recommended an anti-Muslim election strategy to his Liberal party colleagues…….

                https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-sees-votes-in-anti-muslim-strategy-20110216-1awmo.html

                • Shadrach

                  If you blame scomo’s comments for inflaming riots, you could just as easily blame certain remarks from Islamic clerics for the events of Christchurch. I just don’t buy that narrative.

                  • Cinny

                    Not blaming scomo’s comments for inflaming riots, but I am worried that they will. Time will tell, I hope I’m wrong.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    Scomo is just the latest in the sad procession of unelected Aussie leaders post Abbott. More appealing than either Abbott or Trunchbull, (but so is Ebola) he is simply the latest figleaf on a tragic legacy of inferior governance.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    Fair enough. Between the two of them Scomo probably has more sincerity, but that’s unfortunately not a very high bar. Two pollies gesticulating at each other for poll points – just as well they don’t share borders.

          • reason 6.1.3.1.2

            Erdogen is a bad man ,,,, but you misrepresent his sentiments in this instance ….. and you do hold extreme views…… shradbone

            For instance ….

            reason / me quoting a news source : …..

            ” “The ( NZ ) killings also coincided with a surge of anti-Muslim hate crimes in other regions of the world, including the United Kingdom and Canada, while in the U.S., such crimes have spiked to all-time highs. ”

            Shradknob : …. “If that is true, it is hardly surprising given the hatred being preached across the US by Islamic leaders, particularly anti-Semitic diatribes. ”

            ” hardly surprising: about christchurch too ????????????

            more ANZAC middle east history for Shradong …..

            https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anzac-role-crushing-1919-egypt-revolt

            “Shortly after the end of World War I, Australia (and NZ troops) bloodily suppressed a popular independence revolution in Egypt.

            This overlooked episode in Australia’s military history has never prompted much national soul-searching — but it should. The war in which some 60,000 Australians died was supposedly fought for liberal democratic values and the right of peoples to pursue national “self-determination”.

            Episodes like the Egyptian revolt suggest that a squalid imperial reality underlay the noble rhetoric, which is why it has been relegated to obscurity.

            Following the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869, Egypt increasingly fell under British hegemony. By August 1914, when the war began, Europeans controlled more than 90% of the Egyptian economy, despite making up only 2% of the population.

            From the outset, the ANZAC presence in Egypt was about more than military training. They were there to keep a watchful eye on the general population, ready to respond if the “darkies”, “niggers” and “wogs” (as ANZAC diarists conditioned by racist ideology often described Egyptians) got any rebellious ideas.”

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/auckland-mounted-rifles/1914#amr1919 1919
            “The return home of the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade (NZMR) is delayed by a shortage of shipping. ….They also help quell riots in Egypt, where there is anger at the lack of progress towards the independence that has been promised after the war. ” …..,,

            “Following the armistice, the Wafd [Delegation] party was formed by the Egyptian nationalist politician Pasha Zaghul.

            Its adopted flag was a Sunni crescent and Coptic cross set on a green background, symbolising the peaceful unity of Egypt’s Muslims and Christians. Wafd leaders demanded the right to negotiate for independence with the British government in London. ”

            “darkies”, “niggers” and “wogs” (as ANZAC diarists conditioned by racist ideology often described Egyptians / Arabs)

            7th March 1919 – A Summary Military Court is set up in Shirbin to try civilians arrested during the disturbances. Those convicted of rioting are publicly flogged, fined or serve a short spell in gaol.

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/canterbury-mounted-rifles/1914

            March 25th – The CMR leaves Tanta at 3.30 a.m. and rides 40 km north to the disaffected village of Kafr el Sheik, accompanied by four armoured cars. A cordon is thrown around the village at 7 a.m. and it is occupied by 8 a.m. An investigation of the cause of the disturbances results in a number of arrests. Those convicted by summary military court are publicly flogged, fined or imprisoned.

            26th – The 8th (South Canterbury) Squadron rides through nearby villages as a show of force. The rioting is investigated and summary punishments are meted out in minor cases.

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/wellington-mounted-rifles/1914

          • reason 6.1.3.1.3

            Never mind your Hosking like misrepresentation of what Erdogwen said Shradthrob ….

            Do you condone your own comments …. The one where you blame the christchurch mass murder …. on extremist Muslim preachers spreading hate speech and antisemitism.

            Do you stand by your victim blaming ???? .

            And your fear-mongering against this group of people.

            https://twitter.com/hashtag/50lives?src=hash

            • Shadrach 6.1.3.1.3.1

              “The one where you blame the christchurch mass murder …. on extremist Muslim preachers spreading hate speech and antisemitism.”

              No, never said that. In fact I specifically denied that that was the case (/open-mike-21-03-2019/#comment-1598509).

              The fault for the Christchurch massacre rests with the perpetrator. Simple.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7

    A lot of aid workers were killed in the Ethiopian 737 Max 8 that crashed, including consumer advocate Ralph Nader’s grandniece. Sounds it like a lot of people who would have helped a lot of people, lost their lives. Quite a different situation to other plan crashes where there have been faulty mechanics etc. In this case, it was the artificial intelligent pilot that forced the plane to crash. Huge implications:

    “This is a harbinger for the future people. They are going to use more and more Artificial Intelligence. In this case, this is a plane whose guided software overpowered its own pilots. And that is why people like Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk warned a few years ago, in an open letter to the world, that if we don’t control artificial intelligence, it is going to destroy us.”

    • RedLogix 7.1

      All new technologies have hidden engineering flaws, sometimes quite terrible ones. In this case the problem is a subtle mix of a new control, unclear documentation, and inadequate pilot training. Hell I’ve encountered events like this in my own personal work, albeit with far less awful consequences.

      The good news is that, in stark contrast to almost all other fields of human endeavour, engineers are very, very good at getting to the root cause and preventing them from happening again.

      • Gabby 7.1.1

        Just a tad coldblooded there rodlog, Boeing likes the cut of your jib.

        • RedLogix 7.1.1.1

          Boeing have fumbled their response to this; but they have reacted correctly once they had confirming evidence of the commonality of the problem.

          I realise it is a bit cold-blooded, but everything is a trade-off of risk vs benefit. For instance cars kill many orders of magnitude more people every year than aircraft, but we tolerate this because we judge (rightly or wrongly) the benefit is worth it.

          • Gabby 7.1.1.1.1

            There are quite a few more cars and they cover quite a lot of ground. Mind you, we’re not all that tolerant of killer safety features in cars either you’ll have noticed.

            • greywarshark 7.1.1.1.1.1

              All that hot air about air bags. Now a better innovation might have been if an air bag in the roof inflated lightly over the car body, lifting it a little thus reducing friction and energy consumption.

      • Graeme 7.1.2

        Would have been nice if there had been some responsible engineering in the first place rather than a sub-system that no one knew anything about that had a single point if failure, and was counter-intuitive to the pilots. How a once proud engineering company like Boeing could be this position is astounding.

        There’s nothing subtle about this, it was a bodge on top of a bodge to avoid having to re-certify the airplane and having to re-train the crews. In other words save money. And a lot of people died.

        I have a feeling this isn’t going to end well for Boeing shareholders and staff.

        • RedLogix 7.1.2.1

          Yes from my reading on the topic you are on the nail. The 737 type is by far the most successful modern age jet; reputedly one takes off or lands somewhere in the world every five seconds. That’s an astounding record.

          The problem for Boeing is that this its almost too successful; it’s a 50 year old design that’s close to it’s use-by date. They need to replace it, but it’s too entrenched in the industry for this to happen easily. So they came up with a transition strategy to buy time.

          The MAX series was intended to update the engines and avionics, without the industry incurring the massive cost of retraining tens of thousands of pilots. It wasn’t a wholly bad idea, but the flaw is now apparent.

          The good news is that there is apparently a straightforward technical fix and once implemented this accident type should not occur again.

          Or Boeing may decide that the MAX update, with the inherent engine location issue, should not be progressed any further and a wholly new plane introduced sooner.

          • Macro 7.1.2.1.1

            The thing is Red – as I hear it from people within the industry ( two friends are air accident investigators, two are current flight instructors for AirNZ, and another and ex-warbird pilot with his ear very much to the ground and they all say pretty much the same thing) – AirBus had struck a similar problem and had a similar work around which Boeing tried to emulate. Only Boeing’s software wasn’t up to snuff. They have implemented a substandard system.

        • greywarshark 7.1.2.2

          Got an analogy in Erebus – not keeping the pilots in the loop. Poor buggers trying to make split second decisions that couldn’t come off. Fighting a terminator-brainless. All those people behind you relying on you. The designers should be involved in all the test runs, that is the leaders of the corporates taking the money for producing these flash systems that have been requested or that have been developed and sold to the airlines.

    • joe90 7.2

      Seems it could be more about the rush to certify in the interests of shareholder returns than IA.

      As Boeing hustled in 2015 to catch up to Airbus and certify its new 737 MAX, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed the agency’s safety engineers to delegate safety assessments to Boeing itself, and to speedily approve the resulting analysis.

      But the original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA for a new flight control system on the MAX — a report used to certify the plane as safe to fly — had several crucial flaws.

      That flight control system, called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System), is now under scrutiny after two crashes of the jet in less than five months resulted in Wednesday’s FAA order to ground the plane.

      Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.

      https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

      https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fbi-joining-criminal-investigation-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/

    • Echoes of Hal from 2001 Space Odessy.

      There is no replacement for human control over computerized systems, really.

      • greywarshark 7.3.1

        Wild K
        Perhaps the situation between us and Hal is reversed now. Are we dreaming?

      • RedLogix 7.3.2

        Actually no.

        What most people don’t realise is that when a modern wide body is cruising at say 38,000 ft it is operating in a fairly tight ‘coffin corner’. Flying at higher altitudes is desirable because there is less resistance and it’s more efficient; also it avoids most turbulence and storms.

        The downside is that as a plane flies higher two fundamental things happen, the stall speed also increases and the speed of sound decreases. At some altitude, depending on the wing design, these two speeds coincide. In other words, go just a few knots slower and the plane stalls and falls out of the sky, go a few knots faster and you hit the speed of sound and the wings fall off due to uncontrollable flutter.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aerodynamics)

        In order to cruise safely at fuel efficient altitudes, the autopilot is essential. A pilot can manually operate the craft up there for a while, but not for long without the risk of loosing it. And indeed the vast majority of flights run in auto pretty much from the time the flaps are pulled up and then extended. It’s simply not possible to manually fly the 12 hour plus routes that are commonplace these days all the way by stick.

        The problem is this; while the automation is remarkably good as a rule, because it operates in an environment with indeterminate events; weather, instrument or actuator failure, engine or mechanical problems, etc …. there is no way to build reliable code to deterministically respond to every eventuality. Which is why we still have pilots sitting up at the pointy end.

        The issue this creates though, and this is endemic in the automation business, is the critical moments between when the automation encounters a problem it cannot handle and ‘hands over’ to the pilots … and when the pilot correctly understands what is happening and takes effective control.

        This particular problem with the MAX is very unforgiving because it occurs right after takeoff and leaves little time for the pilot to respond correctly.

        There are a variety of approaches to this problem but no-one, not Airbus nor Boeing, has yet been able to fully address it. For the foreseeable future we will need both automation and pilots; it’s the interaction between the two which has some unsolved problems.

        • KJT 7.3.2.1

          We have the same problem where I work. It needs a high level of training, and days, of hands on experience, to be able to take over when the automatic systems fail.
          At the same time the fuel efficiency and reliability of the automated systems precludes the practice time. Unlike the aircraft industry, only a few of our operations can justify the expense of a lot of simulator time. Even on aircraft, air France, accidents are happening because pilots have to take over without enough real flying experience.

  8. rata 8

    Same people saying the same things
    Nothing changes.

  9. esoteric pineapples 9

    Interesting blog, I noticed on The Standard links. While ANZAC Day is important to commemorate, I have noticed in New Zealand over the past few years an increasing nationalist sentiment around ANZAC Day, like it is the national day we should have instead of Waitangi Day which always has those pesky complaints about not recognising Maori rights under the Treaty of Waitangi (not that this is the point made in the blog):

    “Why the focus on Turkey? Why not Iraq, or Syria or any other Muslim country? One possible answer is geographical: Turkey is directly ‘in the middle’ of the West and the East. [deleted. Don’t name him – MS] himself draws the ‘line’ at the Bosphorus river, cutting Istanbul into an east and west side.

    [Deleted – don’t refer to his manifesto – MS]

    It does not take a very great leap of imagination here to draw the lines and connect the dots: thousands of Australians making the ‘pilgrimage’ to Gallipoli every April 25th, draped in flags and shedding sacred tears of remembrance, with all the echoes of ‘sacrifice’ and bravery that accompany this state sanctioned paean to Empire. Most people may well not focus on the whiteness of this same Empire: but it is there. [deleted. Don’t name him – MS] does not ignore this fact, or merely wallow in a vague spiritual sense of connection with his ancestors. He draws the lines, he connects the dots.

    The Anzac legacy is white supremacy.”

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/03/20/the-anzac-legacy-is-white-supremacy/

    • WeTheBleeple 9.1

      It amazes me how these writers think that muppet has anything of value. None of what he’s saying is new. It’s just a mishmash of shit.

      Hiding behind the ‘frank discussion’ and ‘knowing your enemy’ to republish this assholes garbage is deplorable. Clickbait gains for repeating repulsive racism – “we’re only discussing it.”

      Bullshit.

      If people didn’t understand the links between state sponsored aggression, institutionalized racism and terror before – they were willingly ignorant and living in bubbles. Hypocrites.

      You know influential young minds are reading that crap. And others doing it is never an excuse.

      For shame.

    • Higherstandard 9.2

      “The Anzac legacy is white supremacy.”

      What a load of self serving tosh.

      • Gabby 9.2.1

        It does look as if wee Timmy s leaping on shatpant’s weird views and the plonkers wrapped in flags to push his own barrow. Never waste a crisis, as addy would have it.

  10. Blazer 10

    quoting [Agreed deleted – MS] …are you serious??

  11. greywarshark 11

    On Radionz this morning – an interesting discussion on how youtube’s set-up ie alghorithms are set in such a way as to choose salacious or sensational matters which encourage clicks.

    I fear for society’s mind. We need to have teaching in understanding our thought processes and how to work through checks on the manipulation of them. Or we will be taken over by machine minds completely, either in human bodies but fed a stream of beliefs like zombie cult members, or actual machines and technological devices and sense-waves that can work out what we are processing in our brains before we have time to go through the checks I have mentioned.

    I don’t like the way we go on skipping along the primrose path and ignoring what we already know about the ways of these inhuman business giants now, and what they are developing.

    How should we protect ourselves, lessen the invasion into our brains? Secondary schools etc are cutting out the personal individual aspect of education and demanding that youngsters do everything through machines. Is that wise? Does anyone take a longer view?

    This is Radionz program: audio later.
    09:05 Ex YouTube programmer: “tech giants profit from extreme content”

    Pressure on giant tech companies to do more to control horrific content on their platforms in the wake of the Mosque shootings is building. The managers of five government-related funds, worth more then $90 billion, have added their voice to calls for Twitter, Facebook and Google to take action against the spread of obscene content.

    The Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says she’s extremely concerned by Facebook’s live streaming tool, and she wants governments around the world to work together to pressure tech giants into action. But what would it take for these technology platforms, which make a fortune out of the sharing of extreme content to react?

    Until 2013, Guillaume Chaslot was one those responsible for designing the algorithms at YouTube, which he says encourage the most extreme and divisive content because that is what drives the most traffic. He is the founder of the watchdog group AlgoTransparency.

    • greywarshark 11.1

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018687565/chch-parents-breach-lockdown-what-to-do

      Parents trying to get children out of school lock down was a problem for some schools in Christchurch.

      I think that the idea of lockdown here is being taken too far. The legal situation should be considered – the schools are in loco parentis I think is the term. When the parents come for their children, they need to be delivered up to them. Surely that would be the case unless there was immediate threat outside, in the air ie gases, lone gunman roaming around etc. (Perhaps this needs to be explained, and rational innocent parents allowed to enter. Schools doin’t want a crazed parent inside with the children.)

      Parents these days are being flogged unmercifully – this shouldn’t be overlooked.
      A parent might have to go to work and need to pick up the child and leave with some minder or carer. When the lockdown is lifted they will not be free to leave and carry out their guardian role. And don’t anyone say of course the employer would let them go – this would show an isolation from the real world that would render any opinion from that person redundant. There could be a family emergency, there could be a breakdown from anxiety and worry of a parent, already stressed by the shitty circumstances some are forced to struggle through.

      Schools certainly need a process to follow. Perhaps hand a waiver form for the parent to sign, or send one through the cellphone to be replied to. This sort of thing will happen more as times get tougher and people are stretched to breaking point more often.

      • Sacha 11.1.1

        There were potentially other lethal threats in the area requiring access to school buildings to be shut off. That overrides parents wanting to extract their particular child. Selfishness is part of NZ culture that requires addressing.

      • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.2

        “A parent might have to go to work and need to pick up the child….”

        Or a parent might simply want to have their child close while the world explodes.

        This I can understand. It is natural for a parent to want to protect their child themselves.

        • greywarshark 11.1.2.1

          I am trying to think strategically Rosemary. Any parent should want to have their child close. In emergencies, they may have to step back and leave authorities to try and handle a dangerous situation. But some parents may have such commitments or needs that their requests need to be considered first.

          And Sacha just badmouthing people for selfishness is not a rational way of looking at this problem. Each case would depend as you say, on what lethal threats there actually were in the proximity of the particular school, and the individual parent’s case.

    • WeTheBleeple 11.3

      Satire:

      Humans are responding to sensationalist clickbait titles and nonsense as a direct response to failing to stay awake while trying to get through the titles of scientific literature.

      Works such as:

      Performance of empirical potentials (AMBER, CFF95, CVFF, CHARMM, OPLS, POLTEV), semiempirical quantum chemical methods (AM1, MNDO/M, PM3), and ab initio Hartree–Fock method for interaction of DNA bases: Comparison with nonempirical beyond Hartree–Fock results.

      and

      WEB OBJECTS TIME: When Microsoft Started Speaking Like a Good Open-Standards Citizen, The Netscape Extensions Tail Tried to Wag The Dog and Object-Oriented Software Turned Static Web Pages Into Dynamically-Linked Access Boulevards to Significant Online Collection Databases

      Fortunately, some academics have recognised their propensity to spout utter bollocks and a new trend is emerging.

      Works like this:

      Fart molecule could be the next Viagra

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0262407909606230

      this

      Chickens prefer beautiful humans

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26192929

      and this

      Similar mechanisms of traumatic rectal injuries in patients who had anal sex with animals to those who were butt-fisted by human sexual partner

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28763709/#fft

  12. joe90 12

    Who recalls MacDoctor?

    Wayback does.

    An Auckland doctor has been stood down after a complaint about his posts on the Whaleoil blog.

    Jim McVeagh, who works at Westgate Medical Centre, said he was behind the online profile “MacDoctor”.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/111424717/comments-by-gp-on-whaleoil-blog-spark-complaint

    • marty mars 12.1

      Ha yes I recall that knob and had a few ‘debates’ back in the day. Good he is stood down.

      • Higherstandard 12.1.1

        “Good he is stood down.”

        Why? Is there any evidence that he’s a poor clinician. I will repost a comment that was made in response to the article.

        ‘I completely support the fact that Dr Jim McVeagh is entitled to form an opinion based on his extensive experience. I do not support the thinking that just because you don’t agree with one persons opinion that you are entitled to try and publicly shame them and destroy their career. Dr Jim McVeagh said absolutely nothing wrong and is entitled to what most would call a reasonable opinion. Can we please have the name of the Auckland doctor who made the complaint yet wishes to remain in the shadow of anonymity. From what we can gather they weren’t even brave enough to phone Dr McVeagh and discuss his concerns. This cowardly attempt at publc shaming is completely unacceptable.’

        • marty mars 12.1.1.1

          If you read his shit you’d know why it was good. I’m not interested in what his mates say.

          • greywarshark 12.1.1.1.1

            McVeagh’s attitudes certainly did not convey an empathy with the human spirit. And modern research shows more and more that’s what is behind having good or bad health, and choosing the right diet too, if you want good health, in general.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.2

          McVeagh had made comments on Whaleoil including suggesting homosexual people had usually been abused and that “transgenderism” was driven by a political agenda. He joked about Norway giving refugee status to cannibals.

          Those are “what most would call a reasonable opinion”?

    • Macro 12.2

      I tried MacDoctor once! Ended up with all sorts of nasty viruses. Couldn’t uninstall it fast enough. 😈

  13. Morrissey 13

    With her dismal record of silence, who takes Hillary Barry
    seriously when she counsels us to “call out and confront hate”?

    Seven Sharp, TVNZ1, Wednesday 20 March 2019

    Last night, after agreeing with her offsider Jeremy Wells that “now is not the time” for the Canterbury Crusaders to change their name, Hillary Barry assumed her serious face and admonished the viewers—“all of us”—to “call out hate”, and particularly Islamophobia, on social media. “We need to call it out, to confront it,” she purred in a display of epic seriousness.

    Funnily enough, on May 27th, 2015 she had the perfect opportunity to call out and confront a raving, hateful Islamophobe and racist. But she failed to do so….

    PAUL HENRY: Are you in favor of our troops being in Iraq?
    ANDREW PATTERSON: No I’m not comfortable. But of course you’ve got to do SOMETHING.
    HENRY: It sends a very clear message that New Zealand is WITH the United States and the rest of the willing. Is this a fight worth having? You HAVE to say YES.
    ANDREW PATTERSON: [gravely] Of course, of COURSE.
    HENRY: This is a fight that we have to be on the right side of, isn’t it?
    JOE COTTON: [baffled sigh] Whooooooof….
    HENRY: We have to POUND them and SQUASH them don’t we?
    ANDREW PATTERSON: I guess the big question here is: how do we counter the ideology?
    HENRY: It’s hard. It’s hard…..

    8:35 a.m. ….

    HENRY: Absolutely we should be part of the fight. And we have to really take it to them!
    HILLARY BARRY: [softly] I’m afraid so.
    JIM KAYES: [softly, grimacing with moral doubt] Yes, I think so.
    HENRY: We have to be in there STRONG and HARD! We have to KILL THEM ALL! And in the course of this, bombs are going to bounce into tents where there are women and children! But we must not get up in arms about that! Kill them all!
    HILLARY BARRY: [clearly uncomfortable] Mmm hmmm.
    JIM KAYES: [gravely] That’s the reality of war.

    HILLARY BARRY: I’d like some feedback on this Alex/Alexandra controversy! Paul thinks I should say Alexandra.
    HENRY: I think you are being too casual towards the people of Alexandra when you call their town Alex.
    HILLARY BARRY: [mock-scolding] Look who’s calling me casual!
    HENRY: Just on this ISIS thing again. THEY thrive because WE hesitate. They’re not LIKE us.
    JIM KAYES: We fight in a conventional, honest way. Whereas—
    HENRY: Exactly! We need to KILL THEM ALL! And if some women and children get killed, so be it.

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/04/we-need-to-kill-them-all-and-if-some.html

    • WeTheBleeple 13.1

      Henry sure comes across as a bully in that situation. I’d have risen to it, but he’s simply bullying Hillary she tried pull away he dragged her back in. Her one acquiescence was not to a call to kill em all.

      What a horrid corner he tried push her into. Henry is the prick here. Hillary can learn from it, we all can.

      Racists are bullies at heart. Just the fact they’re racist acknowledges a propensity for it. They make everyone else uncomfortable and force their view which is exactly what’s happening in this scenario.

    • OnceWasTim 13.2

      Don’t be cruel @ Morrisey!
      She’s the new Mother of the Nation – a guiding star to anyone needing an idol

  14. greywarshark 14

    Brexit – The Never-Ending Story – a Childhood Fantasy film.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeFni9dOv7c

    https://www.vox.com/2019/3/20/18273440/brexit-extension-drama-explained-theresa-may

    Apparently there is an extension on Brexit to the end of June.
    I think it should be The End of May. As in exit, by-bye, bon voyage, auf Wiedersehen, adiós, adieu, addio, adeus…….

  15. Rosemary McDonald 15

    Top Bloke Paul Buchanan…https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214788

    “Isis threat ‘real’: Why the show of solidarity from New Zealanders is critical, …”

    Could very well be my bias, but is this ‘expert’ implying that by showing solidarity with the Muslim community we are insuring ourselves against attack by defeated ISIS fighters?

    I’d like to think that we’d all respond in a similar way regardless of which particular group were the target of a domestic terrorist attack.

    Note to media….you must find better ‘experts’ to quote.

    • greywarshark 15.1

      Rosemary.
      We live in the world of realpolitik all the time but don’t always see it so plainly while we can make small ameliorating gestures that inject some human ethics into the mammoth of political dealings. I think the great challenge that each one grapples with is how to find out how to be better and fairer and limit inhuman tendencies.
      There is a test of personal and political capability in knowing how far can we go in being caring etc., and at what point do we have to harden up.

    • Buchanan’s an expert on guerrilla warfare and security threats. His assessment is that the thing most likely to limit the threat to us imposed by an ISIS leader calling for revenge attacks on us is the solidarity we’ve shown with Muslims in the wake of Friday’s attack on them. That seems like a reasonable conclusion on his part.

  16. Dennis Frank 16

    I just heard on the RNZ news a report about an executive who was fired by youTube in 2013 for criticising their tolerance & hosting of terrorist videos. It included a comment from the guy. Not on their website as yet.

  17. marty mars 17

    Good one.

    “A man who stood for the Conservative Party has lost his contract with the real estate company he works for because of content about Africans and Muslims he posted on Facebook.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111441618/real-estate-agents-cut-from-company-over-social-media-posts-on-race

  18. marty mars 18

    True heroes – thank you

    THIS is us.

    “”I’m just glad you’re alright, mate,” Bradford said, taking Ditta’s hand on the couch. He’d already visited him in hospital, in the beginning of what the pair say will be a lifelong friendship.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111427714/the-reluctant-hero–gunshot-victim-hails-ute-driver-who-took-him-to-hospital

  19. CHCoff 19

    Respect for the innocent victims of this attack, is politcal peace and quiet in the main.

  20. marty mars 20

    Wow, tears, ban them, so good. Thank you thank you jacinda

  21. Dennis Frank 21

    Police Commissioner Mike Bush: “for many people, you will now be in unlawful possession of your firearm. Given this is an immediate change, there is an amnesty to allow the notification and hand in their firearms to Police.” http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1903/S00640/police-announce-process-to-hand-over-reclassified-mssas.htm

    He then outlines what folks must do to become law-abiding. There will be thousands of attack weapons flooding in – I hope the media gets photos of the result, because it will have a profoundly positive effect on youngsters!

    • marty mars 21.1

      Melt them to plowshares. Add their essence to the memorial structures that will be created to remember the innocent murdered by the white supremacist.

      • Dennis Frank 21.1.1

        Damn good idea. Symbolism is powerful stuff, it resonates down through the ages. I hope a sculptor will use the melt-down to create an inspiring memorial. 👍

  22. cleangreen 22

    Best not to dwell on that incident now.

    As you give un-needed energy to the perpetrator.

  23. Eco Maori 23

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  24. Eco Maori 24

    We need to all help our Afrcian cousins servive this plite that is caused by human caused climate change Ka kite ano links below
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/mar/21/we-dont-have-anything-the-fight-for-survival-after-cyclone-idai

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute someone chose this song for Eco Maori.

  25. Eco Maori 25

    The Australian pollies must do all they can to stop Tangata whenua of Austrailia tamariki high suicude rate 35 in 3 months . Giving tangata whenua respect for starters and giving them EQUAL RIGHTS stop the media from runing storys that damage tangata whenua MANA and WAIRUA . I know that happens I SEE it happening here in Aotearoa Kia Kaha links below P.S Be proud of your great cultures Tangata whenua of Australia.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/22/indigenous-suicide-35-dead-in-three-months-including-three-12-year-old-children

  26. Eco Maori 26

    Whanau you know my whanau has been hard working honest Maori farming whanau well for 8 years of good service and 5 of us having worked for him the sharemilker desided to underarm bowl my whanau on the last weeks he held the money back that was illegal puppet he knew we are not rich. I laughing my ass off watching him hire boys to run another Maori trust farm he got to sharemilke he lost money I pridicted that instead of hiring a elderly Maori man he chose to hire boys.
    You see whanau I notice 3 years ago A change in attitude from the sharemilker and the extra vehicles going to his whare. I knew they were in comunacation with the sandflys a lot of signs that I seen. One day I had a guts full that evening I front him and his wife about the sandflys harassing me and asked them not to believe there lies. I was just the relief milker.
    Nothing happened from my conversation with the sharemilker and his wife.
    Now one would expect that if what I told him had known reality he would have told my Whanau at the time my son and son in law were working full time for him that he is mad he just accused us of working with the sandflys and He would have sacked me but. Nothing was said nothing so there reaction to my acquisitions prove to ECO Maori that he was indeed working with the sandflys also that was the reason why he did not hire a man that was his assistant manager boss to run the other farm he lost money the FOOL . He would not hire Eco Maori because the sandflys had minupulated him into thinking I was a shit Maori. Ka kite ano P.S Ma te wa koire there is more to come on this story

  27. Eco Maori 27

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  28. Eco Maori 28

    Some people like to kiss ass non better than pompous someone could have been sent to save some people YEA RIGHT get your head out of his ASS.WTF Ka kite ano

  29. Eco Maori 29

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News my words are use to Tau toko the Poor common people no matter whom they are Maori are the majority of those people in Atoearoa at the minute.
    I see that the Eco Maori effect is still strong One of
    My son in law is Arab I treat him like my son I give advice when he does not take it ma te wa then I laugh when he see I was correct if he steps out of line I correct him ASAP just like my tamariki.
    Ka kite ano

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