And exactly why did WHO's Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus spend weeks telling there was no need to stop international travel, all the while praising China's response that primarily involved shutting tens of millions into their appartments and stopping all travel within China?
When he knew that virus's don't know the difference between the borders of a city and a country?
When he knew millions had evaded the initial Hubei lockdown?
When he knew the silent transmission characteristic that made it certain the virus would get out of China?
If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis. Instead China insisted that any such travel ban would be 'racist', while at the same time imposing the same measures domestically.
These are not actions in good faith. Some hard questions need answers.
It's a pretty weird twist of global fate when the country and the government that essentially caused the outbreak in the first place is the country that is using that same moment to become the predominant power of the world.
Rather than send Xi Jinping the bill for all of it, we are sending him exports and gratitude.
yes, but as i said, at the same time you had cases already in the US.
So, we know fuck all, all we know is that the first one to raise the issue was a chinese doctor, and that the first country to do something was China.
As of now no one has any idea what it is that brought that virus forth (and no the food was not it) and we don't know who patient one is and where he/she could have potentially been exposed to it.
For what its worth the last 'flu' season in the US was bad, very very bad, and a few of these dead could possibly counted towards the Virus. But as the US did not test, D. Trump the fuckwit refused testing for the longest time they now have a worse outbreak then China ever had.
Sabine, I like you, but you're wrong here. It started in China same way SARS et al started due to sloppy OSH & their Gov not monitoring/ regulating/banning live wildlife 'wet' markets. So to state fact and say its' Wuhan or Chinese Flu is not in itself inherently racist albeit is true that racists will like to play up it's Chinese origin but that doesn't mean you have to go PC and doublespeak. A spade is a spade & a shovel is a shovel.
Would the current situation be much different if a similar virus had emerged in Saudi Arabia or Kentucky. Probably the only difference would be that it wouldn't be in China.
Look, if you see racism in laying out a fact (ie it started in Wuhan, China & Chinese actions/inactions helped it spread as they withheld info & misled) , you've got a problem. If everything is racist & fascist then ultimately nothing is …the terms become devalued & meaningless.
I suggest the tardy response by governments other than the Chinese is more responsible for the spread of coronavirus outside China.
"On December 31 last year, China alerted WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a port city of 11 million people in the central Hubei province. The virus was unknown."
"The Chinese scientists pulled no punches. “The number of deaths is rising quickly,” they wrote. The provision of personal protective equipment for health workers was strongly recommended. Testing for the virus should be done immediately a diagnosis was suspected. They concluded that the mortality rate was high. And they urged careful surveillance of this new virus in view of its “pandemic potential”.
That was in January. Why did it take the UK government eight weeks to recognise the seriousness of what we now call Covid-19?"
China is trolling the world with alternative histories right now, but the Chinese government was responsible for not stopping the initial spread of the virus.
Fuck off with your irrelevant accusations Ad. No one new what this thing was then. It would have taken a number of weeks for the Chinese to wake up to what they were dealing with. We’re at the arsehole of the world and have had six weeks to get it right an start getting in testing supplies etc. we’re still fucking it up but looking good on TV. We’re always late yet we are in the world’s best place to stop it. Throwing stones at China and being slow pick up on what they learnt means we are useless not them.
Possibly the most effective response was that by Singapore.
They started preparing immediately after the first warning at the end of December. Then they went in as a full scale operation in late January. I believe they ended up with 266 cases and no deaths.
I remember advocating on 6 March that we should be getting our arses into gear rather than just ignoring things. At the time I suggested we should simply do precisely what Singapore was doing. Don't you wish now that we had done so?
By the way. If you one of those who commented in reply to my opinion are you still happy with the views you then expressed about how self isolation and so on was just fine?
The outbreak was (probably) essentially caused by a virus transmitting from one species to another
When researchers based at the Wuhan biolab publish papers in Nature back in 2015 detailing how they had recombined a novel bat virus and the original SAR's virus, then yes you are technically correct.
Incidentally my Chinese source tells me three interesting things. One is that the ethnic/language group in Hubei speak a quite different dialect from the dominant Manderin/Cantonese. They have long been regarded with disdain by the central authorities.
Secondly, and I have no English language reference for this so it's in the very grey zone of 'maybe', Chinese social media sources are saying that the Wuhan lab has been recently demolished and no longer exists.
Thirdly the CCP has just made a big dog and pony show of expelling all US journalists from China; journalists who spoke the language and knew their way around the system. Any remaining foreign journalists will be hugely intimidated by this, and given the way they closely monitor their activities, the chances of any independent proof of what actually happened in Wuhan is now close to zero.
The other real consideration is the high probability of of an unintentional leak from the lab, either due to lax procedures or the well known animal trade from these labs that has documented instance of happening before.
Absolutely I understand what I'm implying regarding intent. I’m pointing out the dots, it’s up to you how you decide to join them.
And Ad very eloquently used the phrase "hinge of fate" …. this indeed is another possibility. But given the CCP's utterly vile human rights record right from … well their very beginnings … why are so many people in the West giving them any benefit of the doubt on this?
Dangerous information RL – if there is any confirmed (or sadly made up and widely distributed information) facts that this is a bioengineered virus that has been mistakenly released there'll be some potentially very nasty consequences over and above what we're experiencing at present.
Yeah I know, no such thing as bad intent. The CCP are living, walking angels who will save us all. /sarc
Yet all but one of my points are public domain knowledge, together they form a number of possible patterns if you care to look. And given the impossibility of getting reliable evidence, then neither you nor I can insist we are right.
But reflexively dismissing everything you think impossible as ‘tin foil hat’ territory is rather tired. Sometimes bad people really do bad shit, and given the CCP’s known track record of bad shit ….
Just pointless, impossible to verify, based on reckons, and a casus belli for violent racists everywhere.
Fair enough if you don't want to understand. I can get that. At the same time plenty of people here have no trouble leveling all manner of very direct attacks on Trump's administration, without anyone saying it's a "casus belli for violent racists everywhere".
🙄 Well, no. Because he's the one on the side of the racists. "Good people on both sides", remember that?
But if you can prove that covid-19 is a CCP bioweapon, put up or shut up. Otherwise you're just trying to make people more jumpy than they already are.
I was careful not to claim that it was designed or intended to be a bioweapon. Research labs work with all sorts of nasties for perfectly legit reasons, many of which you really don't want to unintentionally leak out. There is plenty of precedent for this sort of thing happening, so it's not an unreasonable presupposition.
Or hell it could have just been a zoonotic leap between species due to their medieval food systems the CCP has signally failed to tackle, it doesn’t really matter, in this context.
But my sense is that what happened after that is where the mystery deepens. At the very least the CCP are gaming their self-inflicted disaster into a propaganda win. Not only are too many people buying into it (because racist), but it disheartens many ordinary Chinese who loath the CCP and want an end to their enslavement.
Hey, how about you store your pointless senses somewhere productive for the duration, yeah?
You know, until actual reality stops being so terrifying to so many people. Speaking for myself, I've got a workplace set to do as much as possible from home, an elderly relative in self-iso, a sibling with a job fast-disappearing, and an immun-compromised friend off work in self-iso.
What, exactly, do your fucking spidey-senses do to improve the the emotional landscapes and personal threat assessments they and hundreds of thousands like them have to perform every fucking moment of the day?
But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.
And that is the whole point of the 2015 paper in Nature, that they were using novel coronavirus's found in bats for research purposes. Back then they published one version that was the result of a recombination with the original SARs. Their US lab partner deemed the work too dangerous and destroyed everything at their end, and recommended the same in Wuhan.
But there was never any confirmation they did so, nor that they didn't carry on with the work on other novel bat virus's. So yes it's perfectly reasonable to think they may have been working with a virus that was completely unknown outside the Wuhan lab.
The existence of the 2015 paper is that it is incontrovertible proof they were working in this exact field at that time.
@McF
Everyone is dealing with a cascade of consequences right now. If you don't want to participate in this little thread right now I totally get it.
I just noticed that Francesca @ 1.2.4.1.3 also responded to you and linked to the same Nature article. The evidence that this is a bioengineered virus seems lacking. This doesn’t mean it didn’t escape from a lab, of course. The more scary implication, however, is that it jumped species (i.e. to human) in a completely natural way and that this can happen again in future.
Anyway, the answers to these and other interesting and pertinent questions won’t help us much with dealing with the present ‘aftermath’ of what happened, however it happened.
But I have a duty to, because pandemics don't just kill from the disease directly. They can also kill by the fear they create, and that fear is stoked and directed by people insisting on spreading rumours based on what they "sense".
Asians are already getting shit for this. I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?
I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?
Yes you are absolutely correct on the first part of that. Still it's hard not to notice that the second is the same card the CCP play everytime they yell 'racist' when they want to shut down any thing they don't like.
Dolt45 knew which buttons he was pushing when he went for "Chinese" virus rather than "communist" virus. If you were unaware such buttons existed in many nations, well, now you know.
So kindly come up with proof, or keep your senses to your damned self.
Do you want a long list of diseases that are named after places or countries. How about Lyme disease?
Lyme disease was first recognized in 1975 after researchers investigated why unusually large numbers of children were being diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in Lyme, Connecticut, and two neighboring towns.
And many other examples exist.
Trump started calling the "Chinese Virus" when various CCP mouthpieces repeatedly claimed that the virus was deliberated released into China by the USA to damage the Chinese economy. Pointed yes … racist only if you insist.
Then there was the State run media Xinhua hinting that China could use it's stranglehold on pharmaceutical supplies to "plunge the USA into the mighty sea of coronavirus" by withholding them.
I really don't understand how you could be, or why you would pretend to be, so oblivious to the cultural context in which you choose to make your statements.
So I will return to the question a few comments ago: how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?
German measles, Zika virus (region in Uganda), Japanese encephalitis, Spanish flu (and is still called this on the WHO website), MERS (Middle Eastern Respitory Syndrome), Marburg virus (Germany again), West Nile virus, Ebola virus (name of a river in the Congo), Legionnaires Disease (from a conference in Philadelphia), Lhassa Fever, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Nawalk virus (also known as norovirus).
Then there was Mad Cow disease named after my mother in law
So the idea that we must not name diseases after places, or groups of people for fear of offence or stigmatisation, really is 'snowflake pc gone mad'.
how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?
Pretty much the same authoritarian reasoning that led the Wuhan administration and police to silence the first doctors who attempted to raise attention about the new disease they were seeing back in December.
This crisis is going to have political consequences sooner or later.
how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?
Pretty much the same authoritarian reasoning that led the Wuhan administration and police to silence the first doctors who attempted to raise attention about the new disease they were seeing back in December.
That's not actually an answer to the question. What good is your "sensing" doing for anyone?
Someone recently wrote:
In the case of a global pandemic, the correct balance point is right at the authoritarian end of the scale. Just how it always has been.
According to that writer, "authoritarian" isn't even a criticism during a global pandemic.
This crisis is going to have political consequences sooner or later.
Duh.
Try later then, when people aren't shitting themselves. Nothing compells you to spread rumours so "political consequences" happen sooner, rather than later.
The correct response to reports from doctors about a new disease is to investigate and take prompt action, not to use crude intimidation to silence them.
The correct action when you already have a global pandemic is to take control as firmly as possible, not to dither for weeks for fear of causing offence to the Chinese.
If you can't tell the difference, there isn't much point is discussing this further.
As for 'what good this is'? Do you imagine the Chinese people are all docile fools who haven't asked all the same questions and not come to similar conclusions? Because at every turn you seem to be giving the CCP a free pass and ensuring our compliance; while everything orange man bad.
"Thus, the high-affinity binding of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to human ACE2 is most likely the result of natural selection on a human or human-like ACE2 that permits another optimal binding solution to arise. This is strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is not the product of purposeful manipulation."
I was directed to this by a tweet from Dotcom
And if we're heading into conspiracy territory, there's this:
@bill – as has been happening in china for sometime and more often in recent times, when you shove that many people and other live species in close contact things have an increasing chance of shitting themselves.
Perhaps we should follow Ed's advice and make the world go vegetarian – when was the last time anyone caught an infectious disease from a turnip ?
COVID 19 is new. It hasn't been "happening in China for some time".
SARS and MERS are types of coronavirus that China and other places have a fair amount of experience with. But they don't have the characteristic whereby infectious individuals can be asymptomatic.
If you were merely meaning to suggest that China is a prime location for the emergence of various viruses, then yes – I suspect there's no argument from anyone on that front.
edit. Sorry. My bad. For whatever reason, I read the first word of your comment as “it”.
… when was the last time anyone caught an infectious disease from a turnip ?
It is simply less likely.
Humans have been known to get sick from viruses that live in seawater and who normally attach to sea bacteria for their breeding (can't remember the reference right now – but it has happened).
Viruses aren't that choosy and are opportunistic. Given the number of human targets and sufficient time you'll find that they will will test all pathways.
Very very much less likely, there's little commonalties between homo sapiens and the humble turnip that would attract a virus who has chosen vegetables as their host of choice….although looking around the world at the moment i do note the Donald is turning oranger on a daily basis.
Not deliberate imo Redlogix @ 1. Remember information was extremely fluid in those early days and no-one wanted to come across as scaremongering panic artists. Also at that point, anyone asking for all international travel to be stopped would have had their heads chopped off – metaphorically speaking.
Look what happened to the Chinese doctor who tried to warn the country many months ago they were in for a pandemic. She was publicly reprimanded by their government which must have had awful consequences for her and later died of the disease herself.
Intent scarcely matters anymore. Here is one thing I do know for certain, there is deep fury with CCP among the Chinese people themselves. And they in turn despair when they see the West swallow CCP 'alternative history' uncritically.
I've been asking much the same questions. When the initial news broke for me it was by way of banner headlines in The Guardian, and my immediate reaction was one of dismissal – the boy had cried wolf before.
But when China locked down cities…yeah, that's not something done lightly.
In my mind, and I this said around that time, NZ should have banned cruise ships and, if not entirely closed the borders, introduced strict measures at airports. (And not only for travellers arriving from China)
But Red. We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others. So this government (in my mind – as others – one that's essentially comprised of dullards who have merely been cunning enough to get their uncertain hands on levers of power) did sweet fuck all that might have "unduly" upset markets.
And so "here we are" in a shite state of affairs, and still the government is predicating responses on chrematistic factors .
We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others.
I understand that fully; after all crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly, it will lead to loss and suffering. No govt should take that move lightly.
But WHO's role in this gave them perfect cover to hesitate for a crucial month.
crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly
The irony being that the US is expecting a 14% contraction in the next quarter, which in context, is greater than what happened in post collapse Russia.
I'm thinking the masters of capital would have been well served to have hit the pause button for a short spell, although…they can always fall back on disaster capitalism – if we allow them the space and opportunity to.
If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis.
The NZ government did bar entry to people travelling from or through China at the start of February, pretty sure Australia did also. Took some bollocks because it was strongly criticised by the Chinese government at the time. Poor response from the WHO is probably down to the same problem as with every other UN organisation: corruption and influence-peddling.
True but when only Australia and NZ did this (and full credit to them) and most other countries did not, then our policy was rendered ineffective due to the obvious barn-sized backdoor.
Reductionist idiocy. If you had bothered to actually read any of what I was saying about gun control, instead of just reflexively projecting onto me, you would have noted me repeatedly acknowledging that the safety/liberty equation is a balance which varies according to context and circumstance.
In the case of a global pandemic, the correct balance point is right at the authoritarian end of the scale. Just how it always has been.
What if all the banks and loan agencies just decided to stop taking repayments for 6 months . ? No interest? They would lose no profit in the long run .
Whereas little old Kiwibank has an even tighter relationship:
Owned 49% by ACC and NZSuperfund, 51% by NZPost two large branches of corporate government are propping up another. When you look who is on those Boards and senior executives of them all, what you discover is a very tight clique of super-executive-bureaucrat hybrids who operate this country's major pools of public capital like one long uninterrupted secret conversation.
And for a country in extremis like we are going into, that's actually not a bad thing. Something like the analogy for making sausages.
The "quid pro quo" for bailing out the retail banks (no losses on their mortgage for property lending) is government financing their expenses with social credit rather than debt.
Am I right in thinking that the spread of this season's flu will be greatly reduced, even defeated, because of the social-dstancing/hand-washing etc, undertaken by New Zealanders in response to COVID 19?
I don't follow your argument, Ad. If flu doesn't spread, there will be no "overwhelming" of the hospitals. Surely, doctors have better things to do with their time, during an outbreak of COVID 19, than give flu jabs?
There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year, but every year hospital beds get filled up with people with the 'flu.
Seriously don't to medical what-ifs at a time like this, and follow the advice.
"There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year"
Isn't there?
I was wondering if the considerable changes being made to reduce the spread of COVID 19 might also reduce the spread of the flu. Seems logical, but you don't think so? That's okay. Curious how you are so anxious about even floating such an idea.
True, but you did wonder if people should bother. I think those that are good with getting vaccinated should make the effort, because we don't know how things will play out, so it's an erring on the side of caution thing. We need lots of that.
Hmmmm…I'm loathe to niggle you, weka, but I wrote,
"Should they bother? If my suppose is correct…"
"If" is the qualifier. If the new practices brought about to counter the spread of COVID 19 don't work in the case of the flu, then I don't challenge the need for the flu jab. If they do mean there's no or minimal spread of the flu, then my proposal has validity, perhaps. But not to be discussed here on TS, it seems. Back to the garden for me. I'm harvesting oyster mushrooms that I grew on straw in the underground wine cellar I dug; it's damp and dark in there and the fungi love it!
Robert I hope you have a look later on after the mushrooms, and can tell me about this – I have been putting some rinse water from the washing machine after I have used mild laundry detergent called woolwash, on my cherry plum tree. I know there are still traces of the detergent in the water as there is some bubbling from it. The tree has leaves that look a bit dull and droopy on the nearest side to the runoff of rinse water.
My question – could I be harming the old tree, some of which is dying off anyway, with this water? The other side is looking fine.
that's a bit black and white, I think you are missing the greys (we don't know, it will depend, there will still be some flu but we don't know how much).
It's seems clear that hygiene and distancing will have an impact on flu transmission.
It's not that it can't be discussed, it's that many people have a low tolerance at the moment for speculation about public health matters and this colours how they respond. Asking the question was good imo, because there will be others wondering the same thing. Ad's tetchiness probably didn't help that conversation go well, but people are managing their stress in lots of different ways.
You have a wine and fungi cellar! Did you do your own straw innoculation? I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit so I can plant out some seedlings.
If commenters go deeper with a question, a wondering if, and not just reaction to a previous thought, there will be a depth to the blog that tends to shallow out at times.
I don't think NZ is up to speed enough yet with social distancing and hand washing for it to have such a big effect, but I'm sure it will have some. The principle that Ad states is still sound, maybe flu gets reduced 50% from our actions, that's still a lot for the health system to deal with.
I expect some of that drop will be reversed by the high stress states people are in.
People who get flu now may be more susceptible to covid later due to being run down.
People who won't want a flu vaccine, that's fine imo but they need to take more care in not spreading that virus.
Afaik, vaccines are being prioritised atm for people that really need them.
btw, for people like myself who are used to managing our health without vaccines currently, we need to prepare for having a covid vaccine when it becomes available. I'll talk to my GP about that when the time comes (there's some complications for me), and we have no idea what the situation will be globally or in NZ by the time a vaccine becomes available, but there's a shift in parts of the culture that need to happen here. For many the vaccine is to protect others.
Hard core anti-vaxers are going to find their world view seriously challenged. Fortunately I've seen the anti-vaxer conspiracy theories around covid dropping off so maybe it won't be such an issue.
We don't yet have any community transmission, and we are in a process of learning new skills and getting better all the time. I think we're doing really well, and it's good to be aware of the things that aren't quite there yet.
The last week will have woken a lot of people up though.
I visited a friend last night and had a cup of tea and yarn. I washed my hands when I arrived, but didn't when I left (I did when I got home). We sat across the table from each other and I wasn't thinking about the tea cup I was drinking from. A lot of that will change once we have CV in the community locally. It takes time for people to learn how to do what in the right order, especially people in risk categories (both myself and my friend).
It is! I'm finding that different kinds of clothing help eg a loose shirt yesterday made it easier to scratch an itch on my face in various ways. I assume once we have community covid, that approach will mean more clothing washing too, but dependent upon probably exposure. I'm tending to think if it gets bad where I am I'll have to stay home mostly as the logistics of all that extra cleaning beyond handwashing are probably not possible for me to manage well.
Our son tells us spray the mail. Yes a great deal to think about.
Car door handles steering wheel and mirror. The list is never ending. Shoes off at the door and house slippers also makes sense when you see people spit.
A few people have been saying this, and I'm genuinely puzzled by the assertion. "We don't have community transmission" is quite a step beyond "we haven't detected community transmission".
There are (I don't know how many) school kids who were meant to be in isolation in Dunedin – school kids who were spotted in the city centre. Then there are those cruise ship passengers who visited Dunedin and elsewhere who have been diagnosed as having COVID 19. Throw in however many asymptomatic people were coming through those airports until a few days ago…
We can state that community transmission hasn't been detected. Whether or not there actually is community transmission is a different kettle of fish. But I guess we'll be in a position to say one way or the other with some confidence in a wee while.
It's just shorthand for "we don't have evidence of community transmission." I doubt weka is unaware of the difference.
It's also not unreasonable short-hand. Two weeks ago people were saying it was unlikely that we didn't already have community transmission, and yet here we are two weeks later and still no sign of community transmission. It will turn up, but there's no reason to assume it's turned up before we have evidence for it.
The precautionary principle is bollocks. It's a recipe for never doing anything, ever. We assign experts in public health and epidemiology to advise on this stuff for a reason.
Everyone getting flu jabs is one very simple low-cost thing everyone can do to reduce the burden on the health system in anticipation of the likely massive load coming up. On top of extra hand-washing and maintaining extra physical distance from others.
All of these actions have cumulative effects, each one reducing the burden on the health system a bit more.
Hand washing and physical distancing will reduce flu a bit, not eliminate it. More people getting flu jabs will reduce the flu season still further, not eliminate it. But if fewer people take up flu jabs, incorrectly thinking that extra hand-washing and extra distancing will protect them, then we're likely to have an extra-bad flu season on top of the expected COVID-19 problem.
If flu doesn't spread, there will be no "overwhelming" of the hospitals.
The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it. Even then it is not a 100% guarantee, but at least those who succumb are likely to be mild cases only. That frees up the time, energy and space for those at the medical front line to be able to concentrate on the corona virus cases.
"The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it"
Unfortunately the flu vaccine is not that effective. I think it's more a harm minimisation thing. Those that can get the vaccine and want to should. As with other vaccine issues, the small number of people that don't want to are less of an issue than those that do but don't access it for whatever reason (or don't care either way but will get vaccinated this time for all those reasons).
Unfortunately the flu vaccine is not that effective.
I agree, it doesn't seem to work that well with some people. However, since I started to have 'the jab' each year I have been free of flu.
When the Swine flu pandemic raged some years ago I caught it. However, according to my doctor, I didn't have to go to hospital because the general flu vaccine of the day had given me some protection from the severity of the symptoms.
It was a similar situation to the current virus although granted this one is even more serious.
So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?
Where is the flu virus right now? Here in NZ? Overseas? Yet to be generated? If it's overseas still, how might it get here, given the travel restrictions? Will it wait till those are lifted?
"So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?"
Not sure how you go that Robert. Handwashing and social distancing and social isolation will have an impact on flu transmission, but we don't know to what extent and it can't be relied upon enough to change public health messaging that people should get a flu vaccine to limit strain on the health system if we get a widespread covid outbreak.
There's always flu in NZ. It gets worse in winter (because of the environment?). Yes, we will get less new strains because of no more tourists, but again, we don't know yet how this will play out, hence erring on the side of caution.
It gets worse in winter (because of the environment?).
Because human immune responses get depressed when your core body temp is colder. Or where there are large changes in external environments.
Just about the first defense mechanism that is triggered against infections is that the fluid temps in the body are raised. Bacteria and viruses usually have limited working temp ranges that they can thrive in. It also makes the flow of anti-bodies and other defenses move faster and increases the rate of production of t-cells.
The faster the external environment is at tearing body heat away, the harder it is to activate immune systems. But often it seems like changes in environment cause issues. You get adapted to the climate (I really noticed that when in Singapore in 2018)
The measures being advised to reduce spread of covid-19 will probably also reduce the spread of flu, but it there's a vaccine for either you should get it. "Reduced" isn't the same as stopped, and if you end up catching one of them while sick with the other you could be in some serious shit.
I was wondering if that happens (getting two respiratory viruses at the same time). I've been assuming we don't because the immune system gets activated with the first one making a similar viral illness at the same time unlikely. But a bacterial infection might be more likely.
We all went to work from home this week. I'd have to go to work to get a company flu-shot… I have done it once when the usual checkup was too late into flu season.
I'd have to go to the doctor for my usual flu-shot… And I have to go there every 3 months for a prescription.
I'm not that happy about going anywhere where other people are at present.
Is there any way that I can get a remote prescription for the heart meds and a virtual flu vaccine? 🙂
Some anecdata – since working more from home and getting a regular flu shot. I haven't had flu for 5-10 years. Colds – yes, but fewer. Both vaccines and distancing work in their way. A relative is a nurse and hates winter because of the load of flu cases. If we can take some of that additional burden off our healthcare workers we owe it to them to try.
Gosh! If we all stay abed for long enough we may even halt excessive greenhouse gas emissions and thus eliminate risk of undesirable climate changes. Now that would be a useful unanticipated consequence!
I plan to go for a little drive every day. Dunno where but will work it out on the day. Have a wee stroll somewhere keeping two metres away from other wandering mortals. Perhaps the East Coast greeting as we pass. Mind you, that's dependent upon petrol still being available.
Now that I cannot take the dance classes, and I try to limit the number of times I mw the lawns; I've ben working in the garage/workshop "Tidying" up and finishing off working on my 1957 R50 BMW motorbike. (It has quite a history having been originally bought in Pretoria South Africa, ridden up through Africa, around the Continent, down through the Middle East – as you could in those days – to India. Shipped to Perth WA and across the Nullabour to Melbourne and then shipped to Wellington where the original owner had had enough, and sold it, and I bought it in the middle '60's and have owned it ever since.)
But just these past few days I have been doing some baking each afternoon. Date loaf, scones, ginger nuts, tomorrow I plan Loch Katrine Cake.
There should be no shortage of petrol over the coming months – I see the price has been dropping over the past week here. Down to around $1.95 after discount.
Yes it is a worry. I do my shopping early morning or late evening if I can now and that avoids the mad rush. Here the shelves are starting to be replenished and they have extra stackers in during the day as well so the supply side is being addressed. If only the demand side would settle down to normal we would be ok.
I don't normally use my credit card for shopping here, but they have pay wave so you avoid contacting the eftpos touch pad. I have now joined the younger set, and wave my way through the checkout. 🙂
The Govt says we should not close schools now as the old people looking after the children maybe at risk. Did the media ever ask the questions, how many families did it really involve. Here are some views
All high school students and even intermediate students can be at home (whats that as percentage of total school children). If the have younger siblings they can look after them while their parents are at work. Other work arounds for the young ones can be achieved (are we not the number 8 wire gen).
For those families where grandparents are the only caregivers, their children would be best off at home as they would more likely be contaminated at school.
I'm shocked at the in ability of our media (to ask probing Qs) and Gov to not think outside the box. They have not acted quick enough or decisively enough. Please, we need more and better restrictions…..
Social distancing is not happening at schools. We should also shut all pubs, clubs etc
Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick…………..
To the people who have already stated, we need to go fast and hard and use Korea models, well done.
One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:
karl, you do know there is a plan re schools….schools will probably end up closing as we go through the different stages of the plan.
No school in the weekend, no school sports either and that's where we are at today, Saturday. We haven't got to Sunday yet and Monday is still two sleeps away.
The Government is poised to provide home internet and laptop or tablet devices for about 70,000 schoolchildren in the event that schools have to close due to coronavirus.
Yes Cinny, schools are indeed getting prepared to shut down, shit takes planning, and tomorrow there will be a new plan, and the next day a new plan etc … if people are that terrified of their kids being at school keep them home, my kids teachers are saying only half the kids are showing up anyway. Clean your hands, keep your distance, think for yourself.
Those not in the city be like…. stack the wood, dig over the garden, yes you can make dinner, come on kids let's clean the guttering, wipe out the cupboards, bike ride maybe?
Already making a list, going to call it part of the pandemic plan….kids can't argue with that 🙂
The tricky bit is, for some parents, if their kids have no school then the grandparents look after them. For some of those grandparents they are in the at risk category. And grandparents are usually ace when it comes to keeping kids off their devices 🙂
I am grandparent. I am not at risk. Give me grandchildren. They will sit in wheelbarrow – I will leg it. We will swim in estuary, there will be ice blocks, the day will pass. We will sleep well.
In 5 days, China went from detecting a couple of cases of unusual pneumonia to alerting WHO; closed food markets within a week and had shut down 15 cities within the month.
And a week after all of that (Jan 30), WHO declared an international public health emergency.
Was talking with my sister yesterday evening. She lives in Scotland. Schools are shut for all but the children of "front line workers" and teachers. Special provisions have been put in place for them so they can still attend classes. And "working from home" measures have been put in place for those who can (she can't).
Meanwhile, all sporting venues and gyms have been shut, which I only mention because I thought it quite amusing that golf courses were included 🙂
This morning's headlines from the UK were around closing pubs etc.
Did NZ Inc really go hard and fast????? Really, man I must be on another planet.
I think we as a Nation are too chillaxed, the media are soooo average. From the outside looking in, the Gov and the media seem to form a little love bubble……
Risk = Probability x Consequence
We KNOW, that other countries are exploding at the moment (feed that into your probability above).
If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?
What would YOU DO?
Unknowns (effects probability…… there are tooooo many):
1. Incubation period outliers (eg 24 days)
2. The spread by people who have no visible symptoms
3. The length of time the virus lives on various substrates
4. The real effect on younger people health
5. The number of people infected in NZ that we dont know about
6. Potential terrorist or otherwise purposeful transmission
7. The real social network spreading by schools and other gatherings
One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:
"If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?"
You could, but you'd have to balance that with the damage done by a hard crash. If we have a pandemic that was killing 50% of the population I think that would have happened. The big issue here is to flatten the curve. Much of the high death rate is (probably) related to how fast and hard the virus hit and that was in countries that had different strategies to NZ.
edit, bearing in mind that this crisis will last a long time. This isn’t going to be over in a few months.
yeah, he was good. I suspect we will go to Level 3 soon, someone on RNZ said it's likely once we get confirmation of community transmission.
I think alot of the debate is around whether NZ had the potential to have no community transmission ever. I'm not sure that that was ever possibly. If we had shut our borders absolutely, so not letting kiwis back in, and then locking up people with symptoms and people they'd been in contact with, that's probably beyond what we can cope with economically, logistically and socially. Maybe politically too.
"We would be in a really good position economically etc"
Even if we had no cases of Covid-19, we would have no influence whatsoever on the global economy. And we'd hardly be saying "We are virus-free, come visit NZ!".
How do you know that the Government is not already receiving and considering this/his advice and integrating with all the other information it is receiving from all sorts of other sources and directions as well, not just medical? Absence of evidence (i.e. not doing exactly what you want and what Prof Baker is arguing) is not evidence of absence (i.e. the Government not taking on board everything but sticking its fingers in its ears).
"Shut down the country" comes at a huge cost, and not just an economic one. There's also the social cost of forcing isolation on people, and there's the political cost of depriving your voters of their liberty, which you won't do without a really fucking good reason if you want them to vote for you again.
So, what would have been gained from imposing martial law and depriving people of their liberty a few weeks ago? There isn't any keeping the virus out, there's only slowing it down so it doesn't overwhelm the health system, so it's not like we'd be spared the epidemic by such drastic measures. Where's the benefit?
As to the cost, look at the economic damage that's going to be wreaked just by the restrictions that have already been imposed. If those restrictions had been imposed a month earlier, we'd already have trashed the economy by now, for the sake of having a lower number of cases than the 50-odd we have now. Any government that thought that was a good cost/benefit ratio would be unfit to govern. Which is why the government is advised by experts in public health and epidemiology, rather than reckons from people on the Internet.
Just asking…how long has Ardern had the photo of Savage smiling paternally down over her left shoulder?
Since the monumental PR blunder of Back Then when they launched the dismal failure that was Kiwibuld and tried to pass off Kiwibuild as some modern day Savage inspired State Housing plan… you'd think they'd steer clear of having Our Leader channeling Savage.
It's wrong. And it undermines the Government's credibility.
Ardern and her government haven't earned the right yet.
Perhaps more of us should listen to the interview found over on The Daily Blog between Bryan Bruce and Susan St John.
The flag was there too. What's that about? I haven't seen any complaints about the colour of the clothes she was wearing and how she did her har. No doubt someone has complained. A headscarf would have been good for a laugh.
The state of the Nation speech took place in the Prime Minister's office Rosemary.
Jacinda Ardern is entitled to hang a picture of whoever she likes in her own office. The reason we have never seen it before is because it is very unusual for a PM to make a speech from the Office of the Prime Minister. It's normally off limits to members of the public and the media.
But these are extraordinary times requiring extraordinary measures.
The writer appears to have done much analysis of how other countries have/are handling the situation. Theres some interesting content there.
No doubt said piece is doing the rounds as the writer is a creator of viral applications, has a billion dollar company and the topical material has all the key words search engines would index. $$$$$$$
Anyways…. 🙂 This is how I see it… if communication is engaged then hopefully the virus won't get a grip here. Government, media, word of mouth, social media etc correctly informing people on what to do, keeping people updated and aware (rather than stressed and terrified – people can make bad choices when they are freaking out). Our government is doing a fantastic job making sure people are accurately informed.
China used an enormous ammount of military muscle to ensure people were doing as they were told, personally I found it a bit disturbing, but that's how China rolls. How about those Chinese celeb's feel good video to tone down the aspect of military force re the virus? Wowzers!
Am also rather skeptical of the numbers China has reported. Which makes me mindful of any virus anlaysis re Chinese data.
This particular link https://covid19.govt.nz/help-and-advice/resources/ has allowed me to print out a stack of posters and plaster them all over our office window this morning. I encourage any one with a business or office with high foot traffic to do the same.
China used an enormous ammount of military muscle to ensure people were doing as they were told, personally I found it a bit disturbing, but that's how China rolls.
When we go into phase 3, I suspect that we start using the police and the military to enforce as well.
There are always dickheads who really couldn't give a rats arse about others and who will recklessly endanger others. Personally I'd favour judge making orders, a prompt island quarantine for them with an armed guard detachment and kill orders. They can appeal after the emergency has diminished.
It is a far better choice than throwing them into an all-ready overcrowded prison system. I vaguely remember that all of that was all covered in the available civil emergency orders.
Incidentally, they should be looking to start releasing low risk and remand prisoners (if they haven't already). Reducing crowding in the prison system is the only way that they will suppress potential outbreaks there.
I read a chunk of that the other day. I think he's missing some important parts, and I'd like to see some informed critique of his position. He's not an epidemiologist nor a pandemic management expert.
I do agree that people need to be staying home now as much as possible. I've been more careful for the past fortnight.
Michael Baker Prof of Public Health is on to it in terms of suggesting going harder than what the current Govt is doing. Just to support Michael:
Take for example the Flights landed into NZ at the airport on 18th March. This is just the tip of the iceberg (and this is just a sample of one airport in NZ)
If you take into consideration the list of unknowns I mentioned above (see post 9), like some people not having symptoms then factor it into the below……your ability to contact trace is shot to hell… Now include all the other international airports in NZ and the flights that came over the last few months……
Risk = Probability X Consequence
The flight information below is provided to Auckland Airport by the airlines,
Please provide a link to the flight information from which you got that abbreviated sample as it is too long and does not contain pertinent info. I will delete or drastically shorten the list shortly but I’m happy to put in a link if you can provide one.
… not to mention the multiple repeats of the same flight, such as 6 repeats of QF153 and 4 of NZ124 …
Meanwhile, since the airport is the biggest source of transport noise at my place, I’m definitely lovin’ the reduced number of flights over the past week or two.
Thanks, I see your point, was just trying to hit home the point there were a lot of flights into NZ and we wont be able to trace all the social interactions.
It isn't that relevant as information unless you know the numbers of passengers and staff.
From what I understand, they’re only really letting NZ passport holders and the immediate family in (and being excessively zealous at that according to one report this morning (that I can’t find)).
Most of the aircraft are now coming in with limited passengers and, I suspect, mostly to pick up outgoing passengers from our tourists trapped here.
Re the flights used by people in NZ who have now been confirmed or are suspected of having the virus, the flight information in this list is probably far more relevant than the lists of overall flights in and out of certain airports on certain dates. .
The travel information in that list is just the base information being made public.
The highly sophisticated flight information systems (for both international and domestic flights) available to/used by airlines are capable of providing information for many other uses/agencies, including those of Interpol for example.  
I think that these systems are probably being used to identify flights, contact (transit, origin) points, dates, passenger lists etc relevant to persons who are confirmed or suspected of having coronavirus, not only in those in NZ but also those in other countries.
I will cut short your list (sorry) and replace with your link.
Next time, please think of the readers of TS who have to scroll through all of that space with next to useless info, particularly when one simple link will suffice.
Does anybody know if they will try installing public sanitising or hygiene stations in public, e.g. at the Entrances and Exits of supermarkets? The footwear cleaning hygiene stations in the Waitakere Ranges, for example, were only moderately successful because of compliance issues (i.e. people not using them or not using them correctly). However, these were not aimed at personal health and safety and there was control or close supervision.
Until yesterday the New World in my small Wairarapa town had a wipe dispenser at the door. It has been empty several times and was missing today. I asked a staff member who said people had been pulling out strings of them and they can't get any more. There's still a small sanitiser station at the main entrance, often hidden behind a raffle table and hard to spot as it's the same colour as the doorway.
I feel sorry for the frontline staff having to watch their efforts to help abused like this, they have been unfailingly cheerful patient heroes since this upheaval began.
I've been amazed at staff being so patient and helpful in various stores I've been dealing with. It's actually makes me feel better about how we're going to manage.
There are overseas distillers starting to make alcohol for hand sanitisers and making the sanitisers themselves. I've heard rumours of this in NZ too.
Bay of Plenty iwi Te Whānau-ā-Apanui closing borders to outsiders
Iwi leader Rawiri Waititi announced no one outside of the about 1000 residents would be allowed to enter the territory from midnight March 25 for two months.
I applaud the BOP iwi Te Whanau-a- Apanui closing borders to outsiders.
In early February, if our leaders had “vision “ they would have closed NZs island borders and we could have lived fairly normal lives – without tourism!
But “In February it would have seemed unimaginable to close NZ borders to the world. “ according to our PM.
Considering that most nz c19 cases are returning nz citizens shitting the boarders earlier wouldnt have much difference. Unless you're suggesting we dont let kiwis come home
we should have put them in isolation at the airport. Have the military set up camps, 14 days, two consecutive tests – and if these are negative you may be released into the larger public.
Having these guys come home and may or may not self isolate was the dumbest fucking thing ever.
but i have come to the conclusion that the more education people have the less they are able to think logically.
How many people have come into the country since the outbreak started in China? And all the people they had close contact with? I can't see how logistically it would have been possible to quarantine them all.
it was totally imaginable to us here in tourist land also, as no tourists arrived.
The few stragglers that came to freedom camp and the few boats – we could have done without them.
The saddest thing is, that there a people that desperatly want to stay home, take the kids out of school and just stay the fuck at home until this passes but they can't.
Has Labour cancelled the 12 week standdown for people who can't cope anymore and want to stay home and thus risk being fired?
the stand down for getting the dole was removed across the board a few weeks ago. You can look at the WINZ site to see if there are conditions on that.
good, if that women comes back in for a coffee i will let her know that. Cause she wants to stay home, she wants to take her kids out of school and is afraid that we ill get fired if she does so, and if that happens that she will be stood down by Winz. The only announcment of that that i saw was a few weeks ago, and i linked to the article where the PM stated that 'She was in principe for it".
short version of what I posted below: mandatory stand down for all benefits is lifted until Nov. Stand down for leaving a job or getting fired is still in place, but I would expect there to be more leeway at the moment.
Most weekly benefits have a stand-down. This is a period of time where you can’t get any money from us. It’s usually 1 or 2 weeks after your application is approved.
The Government has decided to remove stand-downs as part of its response to COVID-19. If you’re eligible for a benefit between 23 March 2020 and 23 November 2020, you won’t have a stand-down.
You’ll start getting your payments the week after your application is approved. This is because we pay you for the week that’s just been. This is called arrears. We’ll let you know when this happens.
We’ll also talk with you about ways we may be able to help until you get your first benefit payment.
About 3/4 way down the page if you open all the thingies first.
Sorry, that doesn't answer your question. There's this,
Left your job voluntarily or fired for misconduct
If you’ve left your job without a good reason or have been fired for misconduct, you may need to wait up to 13 weeks before your payments start.
If this happens, there are a number of ways we may still be able to help.
Please contact us to talk about your situation.
There's quite a bit of discussion on twitter amongst beneficiaries and advocates about how to interpret policy now. There are lots of good reasons for leaving a job now that wouldn't have applied before. Also hearing various reports about how well WINZ is treating people. If someone is in this situation I'd check the policy wording then the legislation. If they're giving 13 week stand downs to people there will be support to go hard out on that, but also there still needs to be a good reason.
there is no need for a discussion about what that means. It states quite clearly that if you cause your loss of job or you leave your job because you can't cope anymore, you get a stand down period of 13 weeks,.
you can discuss this until the end of the day and feel like you are changing things.
as of now, people who would like to take their kids out of kindy and stay at home however will have a stand down period of 13weeks if they quit their job, and that is not the fault of Winz, but the current government who had done nothing to change the nature of Winz. The drones at Winz don't make the rules, the follow the orders that come down form the Ministry of Social Welfare.
But yeah, chatting on twitter is gonna change things. Sure sure.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about Sabine. There's a long history of changes at WINZ because of the mahi that beneficiaries and advocates do. Not everyone can do that, but your personal beliefs about what is not achievable won't stop other people getting on with it.
13 week stand downs are shit. I remember when they came in, and they're absolutlely a tool of neoliberalism to force a low wage workforce to keep the economy going. They're also part of bludger meme culture. They should have been removed a long time ago.
Things is, removing them entirely and suddenly as a stand alone policy during the start of a global emergency where people are shit scared is a recipe for chaos. One thing that would happen is that businesses that are already under huge pressure would suddenly find themselves short of workers. I'm thinking about work that is essential to society continuing to function that upholds wellbeing personal and collective.
Changing the criteria around them makes sense, and looking at the policy and law would be a way to understand how to do that. But hey, why bother when one can sit on the internet moaning about pretty much everything. I really hope people don't ask you about this because telling people that Labour are shit and that people can't do anything about their situation strikes me as the opposite of what is needed right now.
i have as many and as much of an idea as to what to do with Winz then you do.
But, this thirteen week stand down period is government sanctioned, ordered, and implemented. And thus it is the current governments orders, aka the Labour/Green/NZfirst.
And this current government by emergency degree even could have abolished it so that people who can not cope anymore, who are afraid, who would like to stay at home with their children, could leave their jobs and do so.
In fact it would be the single smartest thing the Government could do now is to offer people unemployment benefits on demand if they only stay at home.
I don't know what type of news you get Weka, mine currently come from France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Holland and Belgium. All places where i have friends and family. I speak the languages, i can listen to their news, and you and this government have no fucking idea of the shit show that is gonna come. full stop.
You, I, Bill and all of us should stay at home, the borders should have been closed weeks ago, NZ residence should have been cited home weeks ago, our hospitals should have been put on Red fucking Alert weeks ago. And cruise ships should have been blocked from docking at least since January.
And we go to work, because this fucking useless government, this bullshit coalition of the most useless people i have ever come across in government is doing nothing to allow people to stay the fuck at home.
Its not only that the hospitals will be over run to the point that if you have a heart attack or a broken bone or a emergency cesarian you can't because there is no bed available, the nurses and doctors themselves are sick and dying – 14 doctors in Italy died alone. In the East of France nurses and doctors will die and the nurses and doctors know this.
This virus kills Weka. All ages. It kills.
So you can chat on twitter and so on and so forth in the hope of changing something some time, but this is different.
Bill is right when he said that all the Government has to do is send a weekly check to everyone for then next 12 odd weeks. It would allow many people to quit their jobs, take their kids out of school and stay the fuck at home.
this video under when you click on the link below is from italy for a Belgium TV, its in french, but i think you can understand it anyways.
Good employers are already telling their staff to stay home and allowing them to work from home or have special leave and so on. Shit employers are not.
I remember 9/11 and those workers who had previously left the building dying because they went back in as their shitty employers wouldn't pay them if they didn't.
Last thing we need right now is the coercive power of the state supporting those employers and people having to argue with WINZ that they had good cause to leave. People aren't stupid they still need money etc but there are many who have children with lung conditions or are vulnerable themselves and so on. They should have absolute freedom to choose. Have more faith in your fellow citizen – people won't just abandon their employment on a whim. FFS.
I'm not sure DoS. If the advice is 'leave your job if you want to and go on the dole', then there will be people who will do that because we are all afraid. Some won't be able to afford to but some will.
Obviously there will be people who need to and should be able to, hence my question about how WINZ are interpreting the policy atm.
I want my elderly parents' homehelp to stay in place. What's going to happen to them if their worker leaves her job this week? There will be a myriad of examples where conflicting needs and the public health good will clash. I'm more interested in looking at how that whole system works and needs to remain functional, rather than taking single parts of the system and hacking them out of panic.
(imo this is what the government is doing, looking at a range of intersecting systems and figuring out how to manage them all the best, understanding that none of them will be ideal).
If you can see a way to suddenly remove the 13 week stand down and keep working happening that is essential, I’d be interested. What you appear to be saying is we should rely solely on trusting people. I’m much more trust in god and tie up your camel.
It’s not a whim that will have more people leaving their jobs, it’s understandable fear, and some of that fear is not grounded in reality.
I don't think the 13 week standown will stop anyone leaving their job through fear. It will just make it more difficult for them to manage after leaving.
Some people go to work despite their anxiety – from what I'm seeing they are already seeing their anxiety ramping up. State coercion isn't needed right now. Compassion and understanding is, support by the employers to reduce their anxiety, knowing that if it all gets too much they will be supported may be more helpful in the long run.
It shouldn't be a competition between anxieties – staying at work and getting sick vs finishing work and having no income for 13 weeks.
In my review removing that 13 week stand-down worry should be a help not a hindrance – one less thing to worry about. It is only an exertion of state power to support the employer class after all.
In the 1918 pandemic there were doctors who worked at the frontline and died. Then there were doctors who stayed away and did not and had thriving businesses after the pandemic was over.
Already some doctors are busier than they should be because others have limited their services/hours, etc.
Will the coercive power of the state be applied to doctors who withdraw their services or chemists who may do so. Will they get 13 weeks of no state subsidies?
Is coerciveness to be only applied to the people who can least afford to have the choices to withdraw their labour that the well-off have. The fact that many of those caring are Maori and Polynesian and are at greatest risk means we should think about this a little more carefully.
Hi, I totally respect peoples opinions about not going as hard as China, but would respectfully disagree.
Being too kind can be cruel as well. It reminds me of the lyrics…..by the FUGEES
Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Killing me softly with his song
Telling my whole life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Remember the WHO advising that it was wrong to close boarders…..
You can take down entire countries with the wrong kind of kindness mindset, tough love maybe is what is needed. I agree with the way China has gone after the problem to a degree (I didnt see mass shootings or riots….). What do you think people on the standard, what would you do.
Check out whats happening in Europe and compare to China……. maybe NZ Inc is being too nice
US: Borders with Mexico and Canada will be closed to most traffic; New York State ordered non-essential businesses to shut, a day after a similar move by California
Spain: The government warned that army patrols would detain people outside without good reason
Bavaria: Germany's second most populous state became the first state in impose a lockdown
France: Police said patrols at Paris railway stations had been reinforced to stop people going on trips for the weekend
Indonesia: A state of emergency will be in force in the capital Jakarta from Monday – bars, cinemas and many other businesses will be shut down.
The leadership in the USA and the UK has been seriously lacking. By any reasonable measure, they are significantly worse off.
I do understand your concerns, we're all worried – but the comparisons you're making aren't very helpful.
As for China, we simply don't know what has happened there because they have no free media. Of course we haven't seen trouble – who would be showing us? Western journos aren't wandering freely around Wuhan, any more than they can report the oppression of the Uyghurs.
there media in China is no more free nor less then ours.
they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.
China has been excellent about this. The US however is shitshow that is created on purpose by the Shitter in Chief who would like to profit of a deadly crisis.
they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.
And vested interests ready to spoon feed compliant stenographers – the RussiaGate b/s (charges against the IRA dropped btw), the Uyghur myth, the nonsense about Venezuela, Syria, Nicaragua, Iran…the list extends.
University of Queensland Centre for Clinical Research director Professor David Paterson told news.com.au today they have seen two drugs used to treat other conditions wipe out the virus in test tubes.
Apparently, developing 'a vaccine' isn't really difficult. Getting one that works in the human body, and doesn't cause unforeseen complications (including magnifying the effects of a virus in the event of infection) – not so easy.
"The increase in beneficiary payments makes economic sense for a number of reasons. First, those on low incomes are more likely to spend the increase, thus keeping consumption up. Second, in"
Less traffic, nearby gym and sports field quiet and no smoke from the sports bar this winter, tramping tracks and huts uncluttered, people planting veges, an end to workplace dysfunction, almost no suburban truck traffic on my AK route this morning. Big loss of value from retirement savings. Sink more piss and the wife smiles. Work from home in the garage with door open onto the garden. More likely to be dead soon – "old man's friend" and hopefully no big event funeral. I savour it all the more now, but anguish for the young – bless and keep them !!!!
Awww, isn't that sweet? Kaikoura residents unite to return confused baby birds to the sea
Once they have crash-landed the birds are unable to walk on land, or move, and often get hit by vehicles, or eaten by roaming cats or dogs.
“I go out half an hour after dark. Then I go out every hour until half past midnight, it takes them half an hour to get down from the mountains,” said Painting, who keeps animal boxes in her taxi to hold the chicks, which are fluffy, heavy and grey.
“If there’s a lot of birds coming down I can go all night, if I have passengers they’ll help me too.”
On an average night during fledgling season, which runs through March and April, between 10 and 20 birds will be found on local Kaikoura roads, especially those bordering the coast.
Painting said on her busiest night more than 200 birds were rescued, with volunteers working through till dawn.
Inspirational: The Family of Man is a glorious hymn to human equality, but, more than that, it is a clarion call to human freedom. Because equality, unleavened by liberty, is a broken piano, an unstrung harp; upon which the songs of fraternity will never be played.“Somebody must have been telling lies about ...
Tax Lawyer Barbara Edmonds vs Emperor Justinian I- Nolo Contendere: False historical explanations of pivotal events are very far from being inconsequential.WHEN BARBARA EDMONDS made reference to the Roman Empire, my ears pricked up. It is, lamentably, very rare to hear a politician admit to any kind of familiarity ...
It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just show a minimal amount of flux in public support for the various parties in ...
Buzz from the Beehive Housing Minister Chris Bishop delivered news – packed with the ingredients to enflame political passions – worthy of supplanting Winston Peters in headline writers’ priorities. He popped up at the post-Cabinet press conference to promise a crackdown on unruly and antisocial state housing tenants. His ...
Ele Ludemann writes – The Reserve Bank is advertising for a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advisor. The Bank has one mandate – to keep inflation between one and three percent. It has failed in that and is only slowly getting inflation back down to the upper limit. Will it ...
Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency Waka KotahiThe fact that a ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Gavin Jacobson talks to Thomas Piketty 10 years on from Capital in the 21st CenturyThe SalvoLocal scoop: Green MP’s business being investigated over migrant exploitation claims StuffSteve KilgallonLocal deep-dive: The commercial contractors making money from School ...
It’s a home - but Kāinga Ora tenants accused of “abusing the privilege” may lose it. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The Government announced a crackdown on Kāinga Ora tenants who were unruly and/or behind on their rent, with Housing Minister Chris Bishop saying a place in a state ...
This is a guest post by Connor Sharp of Surface Light Rail Light rail in Auckland: A way forward sooner than you think With the coup de grâce of Auckland Light Rail (ALR) earlier this year, and the shift of the government’s priorities to roads, roads, and more roads, it ...
Note: As a paid-up Webworm member, I’ve recorded this Webworm as a mini-podcast for you as well. Some of you said you liked this option - so I aim to provide it when I get a chance to record! Read more ...
TL;DR: In my ‘six-stack’ of substacks at 6.06pm on Monday, March 18:IKEA is accused of planting big forests in New Zealand to green-wash; REDD-MonitorA City for People takes a well-deserved victory lap over Wellington’s pro-YIMBY District Plan votes; A City for PeopleSteven Anastasiou takes a close look at the sticky ...
Buzz from the Beehive Here’s hoping for a lively post-cabinet press conference when the PM and – perhaps – some of his ministers tell us what was discussed at their meeting today. Until then, Point of Order has precious little Beehive news to report after its latest monitoring of the ...
David Farrar writes – We now have almost all 2023 data in, which has allowed me to update my annual table of how labour went against its promises. This is basically their final report card. The promiseThe result Build 100,000 affordable homes over 10 ...
I’m a bit worried that I’ve started a previous newsletter with the words “just when you think they couldn’t get any worse…” Seems lately that I could begin pretty much every issue with that opening. Such is the nature of our coalition government that they seem to be outdoing each ...
Geoffrey Miller writes – Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. ...
Depictions of Islam in Western popular culture have rarely been positive, even before 9/11. Five years on from the mosque shootings, this is one of the cultural headwinds that the Muslim community has to battle against. Whatever messages of tolerance and inclusion are offered in daylight, much of our culture ...
Last week Transport Minster Simeon Brown and Mayor Wayne Brown opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre. The new train control centre will see teams from KiwiRail, Auckland Transport and Auckland One Rail working more closely together to improve train services across the city. The Auckland Rail Operations Centre in ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson said in an exit interview with Q+A yesterday the Government can and should sustain more debt to invest in infrastructure for future generations. Elsewhere in the news in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 6:36am: Read more ...
Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. It is more than just a happy ...
TL;DR: The key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to March 18 include:China’s Foreign Minister visiting Wellington today;A post-cabinet news conference this afternoon; the resumption of Parliament on Tuesday for two weeks before Easter;retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson gives his valedictory speech in Parliament; ...
New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters’s state-of-the-nation speech on Sunday was really a state-of-Winston-First speech. He barely mentioned any of the Government’s key policies and could not even wholly endorse its signature income tax cuts. Instead, he rehearsed all of his complaints about the Ardern Government, including an extraordinary claim ...
A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
“I’ve been internalising a really complicated situation in my head.”When they kept telling us we should wait until we get to know him, were they taking the piss? Was it a case of, if you think this is bad, wait till you get to know the real Christopher, after the ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
.“$10 and a target that bleeds” - Bleeding Targets for Under $10!.Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.This government appears hell-bent on either scrapping life-saving legislation or reintroducing things that - frustrated critics insist - will be dangerous and likely ...
“It hardly strikes me as fair to criticise a government for doing exactly what it said it was going to do. For actually keeping its promises.”THUNDER WAS PLAYING TAG with lightning flashes amongst the distant peaks. Its rolling cadences interrupted by the here-I-come-here-I-go Doppler effect of the occasional passing car. ...
Subversive & Disruptive Technologies: Just as happened with that other great regulator of the masses, the Medieval Church, the advent of a new and hard-to-control technology – the Internet – is weakening the ties that bind. Then, and now, those who enjoy a monopoly on the dissemination of lies, cannot and will ...
Been Here Before: To find the precedents for what this Coalition Government is proposing, it is necessary to return to the “glory days” of Muldoonism.THE COALITION GOVERNMENT has celebrated its first 100 days in office by checking-off the last of its listed commitments. It remains, however, an angry government. It ...
Bob Edlin writes – And what is the world watching today…? The email newsletter from Associated Press which landed in our mailbox early this morning advised: In the news today: The father of a school shooter has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter; prosecutors in Trump’s hush-money case ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Is another Green MP on their way out? And are the Greens severely tarnished by another integrity scandal? For the second time in three months, the Green Party has secretly suspended an MP over integrity issues. Mystery is surrounding the party’s decision to ...
For the last few years, the Green Party has been the party that has managed to avoid the plague of multiple scandals that have beleaguered other political parties. It appears that their luck has run out with a second scandal which, unfortunately for them, coincided with Golraz Ghahraman, the focus ...
TL;DR: The six newsey things that stood out to me as of 6:46am on Saturday, March 16.Andy Foster has accidentally allowed a Labour/Green amendment to cut road user chargers for plug-in hybrid vehicles, which the Government might accept; NZ HeraldThomas CoughlanSimeon Brown has rejected a plea from Westport ...
What seemed a booming success a couple of years ago has collapsed into fraud convictions.I looked at the crash of FTX (short for ‘Futures Exchange’) in November 2022 to see whether it would impact on the financial system as a whole. Fortunately there was barely a ripple, probably because it ...
Anybody following the situation in Ukraine and Russia would probably have been amused by a recent Tweet on X NATO seems to be putting in an awful lot of effort to influence what is, at least according to them, a sham election in an autocracy.When do the Ukrainians go to ...
TL;DR:Shaun Baker on Wynyard Quarter's transformation. Magdalene Taylor on the problem with smart phones. How private equity are now all over reinsurance. Dylan Cleaver on rugby and CTE. Emily Atkin on ‘Big Meat’ looking like ‘Big Oil’.Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15Photo by Jeppe Hove Jensen ...
Buzz from the Beehive Finance Minister Nicola Willis had plenty to say when addressing the Auckland Business Chamber on the economic growth that (she tells us) is flagging more than we thought. But the government intends to put new life into it: We want our country to be a ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee has reported back on the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill, basicly rubberstamping it. While there was widespread support among submitters for the principle that EV and PHEV drivers should pay their fair share for the roads, they also overwhelmingly disagreed with ...
Peter Dunne writes – This week’s government bailout – the fifth in the last eighteen months – of the financially troubled Ruapehu Alpine Lifts company would have pleased many in the central North Island ski industry. The government’s stated rationale for the $7 million funding was that it ...
See if you can spot the difference. An Iranian born female MP from a progressive party is accused of serial shoplifting. Her name is leaked to the media, which goes into a pack frenzy even before the Police launch an … Continue reading → ...
Ele Ludemann writes – The government is omitting general Treaty references from legislation : The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last Government in a bid to get greater coherence in the public service on Treaty ...
What was that judge thinking?Peter Williams writes – That Golriz Ghahraman and District Court Judge Maria Pecotic were once lawyer colleagues is incontrovertible. There is published evidence that they took at least one case to the Court of Appeal together. There was a report on ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Climate Scorpion – the sting is in the tail. Introducing planetary solvency. A paper via the University of Exeter’s Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.Local scoop:Kāinga Ora starts pulling out of its Auckland projects and selling land RNZ ...
Wellington’s massively upzoned District Plan adds the opportunity for tens of thousands of new homes not just in the central city (such as these Webb St new builds) but also close to the CBD and public transport links. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Wellington gave itself the chance of ...
It’s Friday and we’re halfway through March Madness. Here’s some of the things that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt asked how we can get better event trains and an option for grade separating Morningside Dr. On Tuesday Matt looked into ...
Something you might not know about me is that I’m quite a stubborn person. No, really. I don’t much care for criticism I think’s unfair or that I disagree with. Few of us do I suppose.Back when I was a drinker I’d sometimes respond defensively, even angrily. There are things ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
It was not so much the Labour Party but really the Chris Hipkins party yesterday at Labour’s caucus retreat in Martinborough. The former Prime Minister was more or less consistent on wealth tax, which he was at best equivocal about, and social insurance, which he was not willing to revisit. ...
Buzz from the BeehiveThe text reproduced above appears on a page which records all the media statements and speeches posted on the government’s official website by Melissa Lee as Minister of Media and Communications and/or by Jenny Marcroft, her Parliamentary Under-secretary. It can be quickly analysed ...
For forty years, Robert Muldoon has been a dirty word in our politics. His style of government was so repulsive and authoritarian that the backlash to it helped set and entrench our constitutional norms. His pig-headedness over forcing through Think Big eventually gave us the RMA, with its participation and ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Is the new government reducing tax on rental properties to benefit landlords or to cut the cost of rents? That’s the big question this week, after Associate Finance Minister David Seymour announced on Sunday that the Government would be reversing the Labour Government’s removal ...
Saudi Arabia is rarely far from the international spotlight. The war in Gaza has brought new scrutiny to Saudi plans to normalise relations with Israel, while the fifth anniversary of the controversial killing of Jamal Khashoggi was marked shortly before the war began on October 7. And as the home ...
Questions need to be asked on both sides of the worldPeter Williams writes – The NRL Judiciary hands down an eight week suspension to Sydney Roosters forward Spencer Leniu , an Auckland-born Samoan, after he calls Ezra Mam, Sydney-orn but of Aboriginal and Torres Strait ...
Ele Ludemann writes – Contrary to what many headlines and news stories are saying, residential landlords are not getting a tax break. The government is simply restoring to them the tax deductibility of interest they had until the previous government removed it. There is no logical reason ...
I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop:The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
TL;DR:Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
Bob Edlin writes – The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
Every year, in the Budget, Parliament forks out money to government agencies to do certain things. And every year, as part of the annual review cycle, those agencies are meant to report on whether they have done the things Parliament gave them that money for. Agencies which consistently fail to ...
Mike Grimshaw writes – Recent events in American universities point to an underlying crisis of coherent thinking, an issue that increasingly affects the progressive left across the Western world. This of course is nothing new as anyone who can either remember or has read of the late ...
The thing about life’s little victories is that they can be followed by a defeat.Reader Darryl told me on Monday night:Test again Dave. My “head cold” last week became COVID within 24 hours, and is still with me. I hear the new variants take a bit longer to show up ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Angus Deaton on rethinking his economics IMFLocal scoop: The people behind Tamarind, the firm that left a $500m cleanup bill for taxpayers at Taranaki’s Tui oil well, are back operating in Taranaki under a different company name. Jonathan ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
The New Zealand public voted for a change in direction at the 2023 general election and that is exactly what this coalition government has been delivering in its first 100 days. There was an immediate focus on the economy, easing the cost of living, cracking down on law and order ...
The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
The government’s attack on Māori health this week is committing tangata-whenua to a premature death, says Te Pāti Māori. “The government have begun their onslaught on Māori health with the abolishment of the Māori Health Authority and smokefree laws in the same day” said health spokesperson and co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. ...
Today marks a tragic milestone for New Zealanders as the Coalition Government side with big tobacco to repeal the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins and Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction. Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness. It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
This year’s Pacific Language Weeks celebrate regional unity and the contribution of Pacific communities to New Zealand culture, says Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti. Dr Reti announced dates for the 2024 Pacific Language Weeks during a visit to the Pasifika festival in Auckland today and says there’s so ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Tod Wright and Hien Nguyen, Fiscal incidence in New Zealand: The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes in tax year 2018/19 . Analyses of the distributional impact of taxation and government ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Cory Davis, Boston Hart and Benjamin Stubbing, Household cost-of-living impacts from the Emissions Trading Scheme and using transfers to mitigate regressive outcomes . This Analytical Note ...
A coalition of public transport and climate organisations, united as ‘Transport for All’, is actively opposing the government’s transport proposals. The draft Government Policy Statement (GPS) includes plans for higher fares for public transport, ...
Greater Wellington is inviting feedback on proposed changes to its Revenue and Financing Policy. The Revenue and Financing Policy covers the Council’s various sources of funding, and how the cost of services is shared across the region. This includes ...
Labour has conceded it could have done more to deal with disruptive state housing tenants while in government but says the current coalition is going too far. ...
The band has asked their record label to issue a cease and desist to stop the NZ First leader using their 1997 hit to support his ‘misguided political views’. “I get knocked down, but I get up again,” blared through the speakers on Sunday as Winston Peters took the stage ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Food rationing is underway in remote areas in Papua New Guinea’s Highlands following torrential rain and flash flooding. More than 20 people have been reported dead in Chimbu Province. In nearby Enga Province, the centre of last month’s massacre, a 15-year-old boy has been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Hughes, Lecturer, Research School of Management, Australian National University After months of debate and intrigue, the AFL’s 19th and newest team, the Tasmania Devils, finally launched its jumper, logo and colours in Devonport this week. The Devils will wear green, ...
Brannavan Gnanalingam reviews the debut novel by Saraid de Silva.One of the most baffling things for children who move to a new country is what their parents’ (or grandparents’) lives were like prior to moving – for kids in particular, they’re too busy trying to fit in in their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Gaunson, Associate Professor in Cinema Studies, RMIT University Narelle Portanier/Binge “If you don’t know who your mob are, you don’t know who you are,” Detective Andrea “Andie” Whitford (played by Leah Purcell) is told early into the new crime ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Associate professor, Australian National University It’s commonly accepted that women do the vast majority of caregiving in Australian society. But less appreciated is that Indigenous women do larger amounts of unpaid care than any other group. Working with the Aboriginal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Joe Biden and Donald Trump have both secured their parties’ nominations for the November 5 United States general election by winning a ...
Comment: There has been a striking contrast in trans-Tasman interest about Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi’s visit to New Zealand and Australia. While the Australian press has been full of articles about the visit – including his curious decision to meet with former prime minister and China booster Paul Keating ...
After years of pressuring banks and other institutions to stop investing in fossil fuels, climate campaigners are making some progress. So how does divestment work?For years, climate activists have been pushing banks and other big institutions to divest from fossil fuels. New research from climate advocacy group 350 Aotearoa ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. The three young Polynesians are part of a K-pop fan community in Tāmaki Makaurau. It’s one of many that have sprung up worldwide as K-pop has gone ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. This one-off documentary presents three intimate portraits of young Polynesians who are pulled into a Korean cultural phenomenon. K-POLYS is directed by Litia Tuiburelevu, Produced by Hex ...
There’s ample evidence demonstrating free school lunch programmes provide wide benefits across schools, households and communities according to public health researchers. ACT Minister David Seymour wants to reduce the spending on Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
By Wata Shaw in Suva Fiji is facing an exodus of Fijians as many are leaving for overseas seeking employment and education and others are migrating, says Opposition MP Viliame Naupoto. Speaking in Parliament, he said: “His Excellency’s speech (Ratu Wiliame Katonivere) comes after a little over one year of ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming comments from Christopher Luxon this morning recommitting to ‘no new taxes’ as part of Budget 2024. “Mr Luxon’s refusal at the Post-Cabinet press conference yesterday to repeat the ‘no new taxes’ promise ...
SAFE is urgently calling on the Environment Committee to reject the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill, and is urging New Zealanders to rally behind the call. The proposed Bill, currently under consideration with the Environment select committee, ...
Teammates who spend all their time picking fights with spectators are only helpful for the other team, writes Madeleine Chapman. Anyone who has ever played a team sport competitively, particularly as a child and particularly, for some reason, basketball, will know that there’s a lot of politics involved. While there ...
The long-running Wellington music festival is too focused on the Jim Beam-ness and not enough on the Homegrown-ness.There is something about Homegrown that’s difficult to place. A barely perceptible-ness. Like feeling a ghost is watching you from the corner of the room but when you look, there’s nothing there. ...
The latest Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor reveals that fewer New Zealanders believe crime / law and order is one of the top issues facing our country. In 2018, Ipsos New Zealand started tracking the key issues facing New Zealand. In this wave ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Griffiths, Deputy Program Director, Budgets and Government, Grattan Institute Australia’s political donations rules are woefully inadequate, but donations reform is finally on the agenda. The federal government has signalled its interest in reform and will soon begin briefing MPs on its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Patrick Taylor, Chief Environmental Scientist, EPA Victoria; Honorary Professor, School of Natural Sciences, Macquarie University Naiyana Somchitkaeo/Shutterstock A recent study published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has linked microplastics with risk to human health. The study ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Albert Van Dijk, Professor, Water and Landscape Dynamics, Fenner School of Environment & Society, Australian National University Global climate records were shattered in 2023, from air and sea temperatures to sea-level rise and sea-ice extent. Scores of countries recorded their hottest year ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a teacher explains why he and his partner are in frugal mode – and how they’re making it work. Gender: Male Age: 35Ethnicity: Pākehā Role: I am an intermediate school teacher and my partner is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Bendall, Senior Lecturer, Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences, Australian Catholic University Binge Mary & George, the new British television drama series, depicts the real-life story of Mary Villiers and her son George, and their social climbing at the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jason Nassios, Associate Professor, Centre of Policy Studies, Victoria University This article is part of The Conversation’s series examining the housing crisis. Read the other articles in the series here. Australian state and federal governments spend money in many ways to ...
The finance minister is denying that there’s a $5.6b shortfall in paying for the government’s campaign promises, including tax cuts. At his post-cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM refused to rule out new taxes to pay for the cuts, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s ...
Kāinga Ora tenants abused by their neighbours are doubting the government's crackdown on disruptive tenants will make a difference on their behaviour. ...
Kāinga Ora is New Zealand’s biggest residential landlord, housing more than 180,000 vulnerable people in more than 67,000 properties. Yesterday the government announced a crackdown on its tenants who fall behind on rent. One longtime Kāinga Ora tenant shares her experience.For 18 years I lived in a 1960s standalone ...
Why does this myth persist, and what’s the real reason our skin is suffering?It’s one of the biggest international grievances New Zealanders hold, up there with the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and 1981’s underarm incident. We’re quick to tell international travellers that the world’s pollution led to the ...
SailGP’s races feature in-your-face action, with agile, hydro-foiling catamarans tacking and jibing for the title over several days. However, public comments ahead of the global series’ return to New Zealand have left this past year’s controversy in the shadows, as a key appointment attracts criticism from dolphin advocates. A year ...
Opinion: We are fast approaching a fundamental change in prisons. As the number of people on custodial remand looks set to overtake the number of sentenced prisoners, the main function of prisons in New Zealand may become incarcerating un-sentenced people who may not be guilty of offending. We have already ...
A huge seven months lies in store for the White Ferns, beginning this week with the visit of England and culminating with the T20 World Cup in Bangladesh in September and October. Starting on Tuesday in Dunedin, the world ranked No. 2 visitors will play five T20s and three ODIs, ...
Opinion: In a move that has shocked road safety advocates across the country, the new Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, is poised to abandon the previous government’s speed limit reduction policy, particularly around schools. Even more alarmingly, he wants school speed limits to be variable rather than full-time, arguing ...
Auckland Council is opposing a fast-track development backed by Sir John Kirwan and Spark NZ, because it doesn’t meet stringent new climate adaptation requirements The post Surf-data centre faces new 3.8C climate warming rules appeared first on Newsroom. ...
When the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act was introduced in 2009 it was firmly targeted at gangs and drugs. The legislation means police no longer need a conviction to seize assets that criminals can’t prove were paid for legitimately, as long as their alleged offences are punishable by more than a ...
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[quiz],DIV[quiz],A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question?Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Tuesday 19 March appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Bob’s relationship with certain members of Lincoln’s academic staff continued to deteriorate in the 1990s. Others supported him publicly, though articles such as Roland Clark’s 1993 piece in Growing Today cannot have pleased the university management. Clark wrote that Bob was selling onions from the Biological Husbandry Unit to a ...
The letters, which were published last week, were addressed to Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) Chairperson Megawati Sukarnoputri, National Democrat Party (NasDem) Chairperson Surya Paloh, National Awakening Party (PKB) Chairperson Muhaimin Iskandar, Justice and Prosperity Party (PKS) President Ahmad Syaikhu and United Development Party (PPP) Chairperson Muhammad Mardiono. In ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
The government says it still intends to deliver tax cuts by July, but will not lock them in until they have got them past their coalition partners. ...
Kiingi Tuheitia Pootatau Te Wherowhero VII has hosted members of the Green Party Caucus at Tuurangawaewae Marae in Ngaaruawahia. The audience follows the King’s Hui-aa-Motu on 20 January, where more than 10,000 people gathered to discuss national ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dr Rachael Potter, Research Associate and Lecturer in Work and Organisational Psychology, University of South Australia Ground Picture/Shutterstock Pregnant women and workers with children are often unfairly treated by their bosses and colleagues, despite laws to protect against workplace discrimination ...
Reacting to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s refusal to rule out introducing new taxes at the budget, Taxpayers’ Union Campaigns Manager, Connor Molloy, said: “Today’s refusal to rule out new taxes suggests the Government is nothing more ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne Aila Images/Shutterstock Aged-care workers will receive a significant pay increase after the Fair Work Commission ruled they ...
He’s bringing ‘Sophie’ back, yeah. Goodshirt’s ‘Sophie’ music video is one of the most instantly recognisable New Zealand music videos of all time. Featuring a woman listening to the song on headphones while her entire house is burgled behind her, the video won the New Zealand music award for Best ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Blaxland, Professor, Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, Australian National University A year ago, the AUKUS agreement was formally announced between Australian and UK Prime Ministers Anthony Albanese and Rishi Sunak and US President Joe Biden. The agreement mapped out the “optimal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andreas Helwig, Associate Professor, Electro-Mechanical Engineering, University of Southern Queensland SmartS/Shutterstock Steam locomotives clattering along railway tracks. Paddle steamers churning down the Murray. Dreadnought battleships powered by steam engines. Many of us think the age of steam has ended. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carrie Leonetti, Associate Professor of Law, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Victims who experience family violence in Aotearoa New Zealand are treated differently, depending on which part of the justice system they turn to for help. But a new member’s bill ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Tesch, Visiting Fellow at the ANU Centre for European Studies, Australian National University In perhaps the least surprising news of the year, Vladimir Putin has triumphed at the Russian ballot box and been enthroned for the fifth time as president. He ...
The Papua New Guinea Supreme Court has stopped a byelection for the Madang Open seat being held until an appeal filed by former MP Bryan Kramer is concluded. Kramer had appealed to the Supreme Court over a National Court decision not to review his application of the Leadership Tribunal decision ...
By Miriam Zarriga in Port Moresby Despite a “historic” ceasefire agreement in Papua New Guinea between Enga authorities and tribal leaders after months of bitter warfare, a young woman has been found brutally killed near Kaekin village, Wapenamanda. Despite the peace agreement and signing concluded in Port Moresby last Thursday ...
The second season of Ryan Murphy’s Feud is a sadder and slower entry into his canon of true story-telling, leaning heavily on a verdict about the cost of a single work of art. Hollywood heavyweight Ryan Murphy has had a bit of “ick” about him in the last few years. ...
And exactly why did WHO's Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus spend weeks telling there was no need to stop international travel, all the while praising China's response that primarily involved shutting tens of millions into their appartments and stopping all travel within China?
When he knew that virus's don't know the difference between the borders of a city and a country?
When he knew millions had evaded the initial Hubei lockdown?
When he knew the silent transmission characteristic that made it certain the virus would get out of China?
If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis. Instead China insisted that any such travel ban would be 'racist', while at the same time imposing the same measures domestically.
These are not actions in good faith. Some hard questions need answers.
Maybe after things settle down?
It's a pretty weird twist of global fate when the country and the government that essentially caused the outbreak in the first place is the country that is using that same moment to become the predominant power of the world.
Rather than send Xi Jinping the bill for all of it, we are sending him exports and gratitude.
so you have proof that China is the source of this? care to share?
I think Wuhan is in China…Sabine.
yes, but as i said, at the same time you had cases already in the US.
So, we know fuck all, all we know is that the first one to raise the issue was a chinese doctor, and that the first country to do something was China.
As of now no one has any idea what it is that brought that virus forth (and no the food was not it) and we don't know who patient one is and where he/she could have potentially been exposed to it.
For what its worth the last 'flu' season in the US was bad, very very bad, and a few of these dead could possibly counted towards the Virus. But as the US did not test, D. Trump the fuckwit refused testing for the longest time they now have a worse outbreak then China ever had.
So really, please do not call it the 'chinese' virus, its bullshit, its racists and its just fucking dumb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus
Sabine, I like you, but you're wrong here. It started in China same way SARS et al started due to sloppy OSH & their Gov not monitoring/ regulating/banning live wildlife 'wet' markets. So to state fact and say its' Wuhan or Chinese Flu is not in itself inherently racist albeit is true that racists will like to play up it's Chinese origin but that doesn't mean you have to go PC and doublespeak. A spade is a spade & a shovel is a shovel.
KLW/CrimzonGhost, Libertarian Socialist.
Wuhan was the source of the outbreak.
Wuhan is in China.
Shared.
There's a difference between source and caused.
Would the current situation be much different if a similar virus had emerged in Saudi Arabia or Kentucky. Probably the only difference would be that it wouldn't be in China.
Couldnt possible be working exactly as planned. ??
No but it is a real hinge of fate moment.
We should all recall this year, as the Chinese do, the Year of the Rat.
Does this cheap racism make you feel better?
Look, if you see racism in laying out a fact (ie it started in Wuhan, China & Chinese actions/inactions helped it spread as they withheld info & misled) , you've got a problem. If everything is racist & fascist then ultimately nothing is …the terms become devalued & meaningless.
I suggest the tardy response by governments other than the Chinese is more responsible for the spread of coronavirus outside China.
"On December 31 last year, China alerted WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a port city of 11 million people in the central Hubei province. The virus was unknown."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/timeline-china-coronavirus-spread-200126061554884.html
Next you'll be calling it the "Chinese virus"
And, from the editor of the Lancet
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/18/coronavirus-uk-expert-advice-wrong
"The Chinese scientists pulled no punches. “The number of deaths is rising quickly,” they wrote. The provision of personal protective equipment for health workers was strongly recommended. Testing for the virus should be done immediately a diagnosis was suspected. They concluded that the mortality rate was high. And they urged careful surveillance of this new virus in view of its “pandemic potential”.
That was in January. Why did it take the UK government eight weeks to recognise the seriousness of what we now call Covid-19?"
Fully agree that every country has to own their own fate after it got out of China.
Some like South Korea figured out the early-and-hard path to success.
When the Chinese notified the WHO is irrelevant.
The key date is the time it took the Chinese government to lock down Wuhan and most of Hubei into quarantine.
That was 23 January.
Looking back 6 weeks after that, a series of further measures slowed the spread.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/china-s-aggressive-measures-have-slowed-coronavirus-they-may-not-work-other-countries
But by 23 January it was well and truly out.
China is trolling the world with alternative histories right now, but the Chinese government was responsible for not stopping the initial spread of the virus.
Fuck off with your irrelevant accusations Ad. No one new what this thing was then. It would have taken a number of weeks for the Chinese to wake up to what they were dealing with. We’re at the arsehole of the world and have had six weeks to get it right an start getting in testing supplies etc. we’re still fucking it up but looking good on TV. We’re always late yet we are in the world’s best place to stop it. Throwing stones at China and being slow pick up on what they learnt means we are useless not them.
Possibly the most effective response was that by Singapore.
They started preparing immediately after the first warning at the end of December. Then they went in as a full scale operation in late January. I believe they ended up with 266 cases and no deaths.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120433407/why-singapores-coronavirus-response-worked–and-what-we-can-all-learn
I remember advocating on 6 March that we should be getting our arses into gear rather than just ignoring things. At the time I suggested we should simply do precisely what Singapore was doing. Don't you wish now that we had done so?
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-03-2020/#comment-1689513
By the way. If you one of those who commented in reply to my opinion are you still happy with the views you then expressed about how self isolation and so on was just fine?
the government that essentially caused the outbreak
ffs. Seriously?!
Lemme help you out here Ad. The outbreak was (probably) essentially caused by a virus transmitting from one species to another (us).
In addition – Chinese authorities were confronted by something novel coming at them from 'left field', whereas our government and others, well…
The outbreak was (probably) essentially caused by a virus transmitting from one species to another
When researchers based at the Wuhan biolab publish papers in Nature back in 2015 detailing how they had recombined a novel bat virus and the original SAR's virus, then yes you are technically correct.
Incidentally my Chinese source tells me three interesting things. One is that the ethnic/language group in Hubei speak a quite different dialect from the dominant Manderin/Cantonese. They have long been regarded with disdain by the central authorities.
Secondly, and I have no English language reference for this so it's in the very grey zone of 'maybe', Chinese social media sources are saying that the Wuhan lab has been recently demolished and no longer exists.
Thirdly the CCP has just made a big dog and pony show of expelling all US journalists from China; journalists who spoke the language and knew their way around the system. Any remaining foreign journalists will be hugely intimidated by this, and given the way they closely monitor their activities, the chances of any independent proof of what actually happened in Wuhan is now close to zero.
The other real consideration is the high probability of of an unintentional leak from the lab, either due to lax procedures or the well known animal trade from these labs that has documented instance of happening before.
Absolutely I understand what I'm implying regarding intent. I’m pointing out the dots, it’s up to you how you decide to join them.
And Ad very eloquently used the phrase "hinge of fate" …. this indeed is another possibility. But given the CCP's utterly vile human rights record right from … well their very beginnings … why are so many people in the West giving them any benefit of the doubt on this?
Dangerous information RL – if there is any confirmed (or sadly made up and widely distributed information) facts that this is a bioengineered virus that has been mistakenly released there'll be some potentially very nasty consequences over and above what we're experiencing at present.
My best guess is that the initial Patient Zero was probably an accident. But sometime in early Jan the CCP decided to game it.
That's "twin towers" stuff right there Red and no less useful.
Yeah I know, no such thing as bad intent. The CCP are living, walking angels who will save us all. /sarc
Yet all but one of my points are public domain knowledge, together they form a number of possible patterns if you care to look. And given the impossibility of getting reliable evidence, then neither you nor I can insist we are right.
But reflexively dismissing everything you think impossible as ‘tin foil hat’ territory is rather tired. Sometimes bad people really do bad shit, and given the CCP’s known track record of bad shit ….
It's not impossible.
Just pointless, impossible to verify, based on reckons, and a casus belli for violent racists everywhere.
Like bloody "cheese pizza" all over again.
Just pointless, impossible to verify, based on reckons, and a casus belli for violent racists everywhere.
Fair enough if you don't want to understand. I can get that. At the same time plenty of people here have no trouble leveling all manner of very direct attacks on Trump's administration, without anyone saying it's a "casus belli for violent racists everywhere".
🙄 Well, no. Because he's the one on the side of the racists. "Good people on both sides", remember that?
But if you can prove that covid-19 is a CCP bioweapon, put up or shut up. Otherwise you're just trying to make people more jumpy than they already are.
I was careful not to claim that it was designed or intended to be a bioweapon. Research labs work with all sorts of nasties for perfectly legit reasons, many of which you really don't want to unintentionally leak out. There is plenty of precedent for this sort of thing happening, so it's not an unreasonable presupposition.
Or hell it could have just been a zoonotic leap between species due to their medieval food systems the CCP has signally failed to tackle, it doesn’t really matter, in this context.
But my sense is that what happened after that is where the mystery deepens. At the very least the CCP are gaming their self-inflicted disaster into a propaganda win. Not only are too many people buying into it (because racist), but it disheartens many ordinary Chinese who loath the CCP and want an end to their enslavement.
COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm
Hey, how about you store your pointless senses somewhere productive for the duration, yeah?
You know, until actual reality stops being so terrifying to so many people. Speaking for myself, I've got a workplace set to do as much as possible from home, an elderly relative in self-iso, a sibling with a job fast-disappearing, and an immun-compromised friend off work in self-iso.
What, exactly, do your fucking spidey-senses do to improve the the emotional landscapes and personal threat assessments they and hundreds of thousands like them have to perform every fucking moment of the day?
@Incognito
Good link thanks, which states critically:
But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.
And that is the whole point of the 2015 paper in Nature, that they were using novel coronavirus's found in bats for research purposes. Back then they published one version that was the result of a recombination with the original SARs. Their US lab partner deemed the work too dangerous and destroyed everything at their end, and recommended the same in Wuhan.
But there was never any confirmation they did so, nor that they didn't carry on with the work on other novel bat virus's. So yes it's perfectly reasonable to think they may have been working with a virus that was completely unknown outside the Wuhan lab.
The existence of the 2015 paper is that it is incontrovertible proof they were working in this exact field at that time.
@McF
Everyone is dealing with a cascade of consequences right now. If you don't want to participate in this little thread right now I totally get it.
I just noticed that Francesca @ 1.2.4.1.3 also responded to you and linked to the same Nature article. The evidence that this is a bioengineered virus seems lacking. This doesn’t mean it didn’t escape from a lab, of course. The more scary implication, however, is that it jumped species (i.e. to human) in a completely natural way and that this can happen again in future.
Anyway, the answers to these and other interesting and pertinent questions won’t help us much with dealing with the present ‘aftermath’ of what happened, however it happened.
But I have a duty to, because pandemics don't just kill from the disease directly. They can also kill by the fear they create, and that fear is stoked and directed by people insisting on spreading rumours based on what they "sense".
Asians are already getting shit for this. I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?
I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?
Yes you are absolutely correct on the first part of that. Still it's hard not to notice that the second is the same card the CCP play everytime they yell 'racist' when they want to shut down any thing they don't like.
And yet it can also be true.
Dolt45 knew which buttons he was pushing when he went for "Chinese" virus rather than "communist" virus. If you were unaware such buttons existed in many nations, well, now you know.
So kindly come up with proof, or keep your senses to your damned self.
Do you want a long list of diseases that are named after places or countries. How about Lyme disease?
And many other examples exist.
Trump started calling the "Chinese Virus" when various CCP mouthpieces repeatedly claimed that the virus was deliberated released into China by the USA to damage the Chinese economy. Pointed yes … racist only if you insist.
Then there was the State run media Xinhua hinting that China could use it's stranglehold on pharmaceutical supplies to "plunge the USA into the mighty sea of coronavirus" by withholding them.
🙄
I really don't understand how you could be, or why you would pretend to be, so oblivious to the cultural context in which you choose to make your statements.
So I will return to the question a few comments ago: how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?
German measles, Zika virus (region in Uganda), Japanese encephalitis, Spanish flu (and is still called this on the WHO website), MERS (Middle Eastern Respitory Syndrome), Marburg virus (Germany again), West Nile virus, Ebola virus (name of a river in the Congo), Legionnaires Disease (from a conference in Philadelphia), Lhassa Fever, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Nawalk virus (also known as norovirus).
Then there was Mad Cow disease named after my mother in law
So the idea that we must not name diseases after places, or groups of people for fear of offence or stigmatisation, really is 'snowflake pc gone mad'.
how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?
Pretty much the same authoritarian reasoning that led the Wuhan administration and police to silence the first doctors who attempted to raise attention about the new disease they were seeing back in December.
This crisis is going to have political consequences sooner or later.
That's not actually an answer to the question. What good is your "sensing" doing for anyone?
Someone recently wrote:
According to that writer, "authoritarian" isn't even a criticism during a global pandemic.
Duh.
Try later then, when people aren't shitting themselves. Nothing compells you to spread rumours so "political consequences" happen sooner, rather than later.
Another reductionist conflation.
The correct response to reports from doctors about a new disease is to investigate and take prompt action, not to use crude intimidation to silence them.
The correct action when you already have a global pandemic is to take control as firmly as possible, not to dither for weeks for fear of causing offence to the Chinese.
If you can't tell the difference, there isn't much point is discussing this further.
As for 'what good this is'? Do you imagine the Chinese people are all docile fools who haven't asked all the same questions and not come to similar conclusions? Because at every turn you seem to be giving the CCP a free pass and ensuring our compliance; while everything orange man bad.
So, still no answer then.
Carry on, fearmonger rumourmill.
Here's another article from Nature, more recent than yours
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9?sf231596998=1
"Thus, the high-affinity binding of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to human ACE2 is most likely the result of natural selection on a human or human-like ACE2 that permits another optimal binding solution to arise. This is strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is not the product of purposeful manipulation."
I was directed to this by a tweet from Dotcom
And if we're heading into conspiracy territory, there's this:
https://wjla.com/news/local/cdc-shut-down-army-germ-lab-health-concerns
More links about the viruses they were studying soon
Fort Detrick as you will know has been involved in bio weaponry for a very long time, LSD in the 50's
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/15/cia-fort-detrick-stephen-kinzer-228109
@bill – as has been happening in china for sometime and more often in recent times, when you shove that many people and other live species in close contact things have an increasing chance of shitting themselves.
Perhaps we should follow Ed's advice and make the world go vegetarian – when was the last time anyone caught an infectious disease from a turnip ?
COVID 19 is new. It hasn't been "happening in China for some time".
SARS and MERS are types of coronavirus that China and other places have a fair amount of experience with. But they don't have the characteristic whereby infectious individuals can be asymptomatic.
If you were merely meaning to suggest that China is a prime location for the emergence of various viruses, then yes – I suspect there's no argument from anyone on that front.
edit. Sorry. My bad. For whatever reason, I read the first word of your comment as “it”.
Not turnips, but I seem to recall an issue with cabbages a while ago.
It is simply less likely.
Humans have been known to get sick from viruses that live in seawater and who normally attach to sea bacteria for their breeding (can't remember the reference right now – but it has happened).
Viruses aren't that choosy and are opportunistic. Given the number of human targets and sufficient time you'll find that they will will test all pathways.
It is simply less likely.
Very very much less likely, there's little commonalties between homo sapiens and the humble turnip that would attract a virus who has chosen vegetables as their host of choice….although looking around the world at the moment i do note the Donald is turning oranger on a daily basis.
Not deliberate imo Redlogix @ 1. Remember information was extremely fluid in those early days and no-one wanted to come across as scaremongering panic artists. Also at that point, anyone asking for all international travel to be stopped would have had their heads chopped off – metaphorically speaking.
Look what happened to the Chinese doctor who tried to warn the country many months ago they were in for a pandemic. She was publicly reprimanded by their government which must have had awful consequences for her and later died of the disease herself.
Intent scarcely matters anymore. Here is one thing I do know for certain, there is deep fury with CCP among the Chinese people themselves. And they in turn despair when they see the West swallow CCP 'alternative history' uncritically.
Hell, that comes as no surprise whatsoever. Wouldn't trust Putin's Russia for the truth either.
My comment was directed at the WHO and Dr Tedro etc.etc. – can't be bothered looking up the spelling.
Tinfoil hat territory but it's possible she didn't die from the disease but was knocked off for her whistleblowing by the CCP.
Not tinfoil hat material at all!
A dead martyr is of much more use to the CCP than a live critic.
I've been asking much the same questions. When the initial news broke for me it was by way of banner headlines in The Guardian, and my immediate reaction was one of dismissal – the boy had cried wolf before.
But when China locked down cities…yeah, that's not something done lightly.
In my mind, and I this said around that time, NZ should have banned cruise ships and, if not entirely closed the borders, introduced strict measures at airports. (And not only for travellers arriving from China)
But Red. We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others. So this government (in my mind – as others – one that's essentially comprised of dullards who have merely been cunning enough to get their uncertain hands on levers of power) did sweet fuck all that might have "unduly" upset markets.
And so "here we are" in a shite state of affairs, and still the government is predicating responses on chrematistic factors .
We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others.
I understand that fully; after all crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly, it will lead to loss and suffering. No govt should take that move lightly.
But WHO's role in this gave them perfect cover to hesitate for a crucial month.
crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly
The irony being that the US is expecting a 14% contraction in the next quarter, which in context, is greater than what happened in post collapse Russia.
I'm thinking the masters of capital would have been well served to have hit the pause button for a short spell, although…they can always fall back on disaster capitalism – if we allow them the space and opportunity to.
But WHO's role in this gave them perfect cover to hesitate for a crucial month.
The smoking pixels.🫁
https://twitter.com/shypk/status/1240674804509761538
If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis.
The NZ government did bar entry to people travelling from or through China at the start of February, pretty sure Australia did also. Took some bollocks because it was strongly criticised by the Chinese government at the time. Poor response from the WHO is probably down to the same problem as with every other UN organisation: corruption and influence-peddling.
True but when only Australia and NZ did this (and full credit to them) and most other countries did not, then our policy was rendered ineffective due to the obvious barn-sized backdoor.
Changed your mind about being "authoritarian to ensure people's safety. Eh?
Reductionist idiocy. If you had bothered to actually read any of what I was saying about gun control, instead of just reflexively projecting onto me, you would have noted me repeatedly acknowledging that the safety/liberty equation is a balance which varies according to context and circumstance.
In the case of a global pandemic, the correct balance point is right at the authoritarian end of the scale. Just how it always has been.
What if all the banks and loan agencies just decided to stop taking repayments for 6 months . ? No interest? They would lose no profit in the long run .
what about their bonus'…get your priorities right.
Hee.
But seriously could it be done?
They'd try to make up any losses by robbing their depositors through haircuts
Whereas little old Kiwibank has an even tighter relationship:
Owned 49% by ACC and NZSuperfund, 51% by NZPost two large branches of corporate government are propping up another. When you look who is on those Boards and senior executives of them all, what you discover is a very tight clique of super-executive-bureaucrat hybrids who operate this country's major pools of public capital like one long uninterrupted secret conversation.
And for a country in extremis like we are going into, that's actually not a bad thing. Something like the analogy for making sausages.
What the banks will be taking most note of is which governments were the first to fold by essentially underwriting mortgage payments.
They'll put that in the book for next time.
The "quid pro quo" for bailing out the retail banks (no losses on their mortgage for property lending) is government financing their expenses with social credit rather than debt.
I have been asking for that for a few weeks now.
But i was told that we should apply for a credit with the bank, can't interfere with making some profit via some disaster capitalism.
Am I right in thinking that the spread of this season's flu will be greatly reduced, even defeated, because of the social-dstancing/hand-washing etc, undertaken by New Zealanders in response to COVID 19?
More likely everyone taking up the company 'flu shots like never before.
Should they bother? If my suppose is correct, no one will need them – yes?
OMG Robert go back to the garden.
The reason we have 'flu shots is to stop the hospitals being overwhelmed even more than they are about to be.
If there is a 'flu shot available to you, get it.
I don't follow your argument, Ad. If flu doesn't spread, there will be no "overwhelming" of the hospitals. Surely, doctors have better things to do with their time, during an outbreak of COVID 19, than give flu jabs?
Nurses give jabs for the 'flu Robert.
There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year, but every year hospital beds get filled up with people with the 'flu.
Seriously don't to medical what-ifs at a time like this, and follow the advice.
"There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year"
Isn't there?
I was wondering if the considerable changes being made to reduce the spread of COVID 19 might also reduce the spread of the flu. Seems logical, but you don't think so? That's okay. Curious how you are so anxious about even floating such an idea.
Let me see, Robert.
You're curious how there's some anxiety about you proposing that people should not get the 'flu shot this year.
We are in very close to full martial law and you're wondering why people get a bit anxious.
Stop speculating Robert and – follow the advice.
I haven't proposed that people should not get the flu shot this year, Ad.
I've wondered aloud whether the measures taken against COVID 19 might reduce or eliminate the incidence of flu in NZ.
True, but you did wonder if people should bother. I think those that are good with getting vaccinated should make the effort, because we don't know how things will play out, so it's an erring on the side of caution thing. We need lots of that.
Hmmmm…I'm loathe to niggle you, weka, but I wrote,
"Should they bother? If my suppose is correct…"
"If" is the qualifier. If the new practices brought about to counter the spread of COVID 19 don't work in the case of the flu, then I don't challenge the need for the flu jab. If they do mean there's no or minimal spread of the flu, then my proposal has validity, perhaps. But not to be discussed here on TS, it seems. Back to the garden for me. I'm harvesting oyster mushrooms that I grew on straw in the underground wine cellar I dug; it's damp and dark in there and the fungi love it!
Robert I hope you have a look later on after the mushrooms, and can tell me about this – I have been putting some rinse water from the washing machine after I have used mild laundry detergent called woolwash, on my cherry plum tree. I know there are still traces of the detergent in the water as there is some bubbling from it. The tree has leaves that look a bit dull and droopy on the nearest side to the runoff of rinse water.
My question – could I be harming the old tree, some of which is dying off anyway, with this water? The other side is looking fine.
that's a bit black and white, I think you are missing the greys (we don't know, it will depend, there will still be some flu but we don't know how much).
It's seems clear that hygiene and distancing will have an impact on flu transmission.
It's not that it can't be discussed, it's that many people have a low tolerance at the moment for speculation about public health matters and this colours how they respond. Asking the question was good imo, because there will be others wondering the same thing. Ad's tetchiness probably didn't help that conversation go well, but people are managing their stress in lots of different ways.
You have a wine and fungi cellar! Did you do your own straw innoculation? I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit so I can plant out some seedlings.
If commenters go deeper with a question, a wondering if, and not just reaction to a previous thought, there will be a depth to the blog that tends to shallow out at times.
I don't think NZ is up to speed enough yet with social distancing and hand washing for it to have such a big effect, but I'm sure it will have some. The principle that Ad states is still sound, maybe flu gets reduced 50% from our actions, that's still a lot for the health system to deal with.
I expect some of that drop will be reversed by the high stress states people are in.
People who get flu now may be more susceptible to covid later due to being run down.
People who won't want a flu vaccine, that's fine imo but they need to take more care in not spreading that virus.
Afaik, vaccines are being prioritised atm for people that really need them.
btw, for people like myself who are used to managing our health without vaccines currently, we need to prepare for having a covid vaccine when it becomes available. I'll talk to my GP about that when the time comes (there's some complications for me), and we have no idea what the situation will be globally or in NZ by the time a vaccine becomes available, but there's a shift in parts of the culture that need to happen here. For many the vaccine is to protect others.
Hard core anti-vaxers are going to find their world view seriously challenged. Fortunately I've seen the anti-vaxer conspiracy theories around covid dropping off so maybe it won't be such an issue.
"I don't think NZ is up to speed enough yet with social distancing and hand washing for it to have such a big effect"
What does that mean, I wonder, for the spread of COVID 19 then? Doesn't sound very encouraging, weka.
We don't yet have any community transmission, and we are in a process of learning new skills and getting better all the time. I think we're doing really well, and it's good to be aware of the things that aren't quite there yet.
The last week will have woken a lot of people up though.
I visited a friend last night and had a cup of tea and yarn. I washed my hands when I arrived, but didn't when I left (I did when I got home). We sat across the table from each other and I wasn't thinking about the tea cup I was drinking from. A lot of that will change once we have CV in the community locally. It takes time for people to learn how to do what in the right order, especially people in risk categories (both myself and my friend).
I'm getting better at not touching my face 🙂
Me too weka 🙂 That face touching thing is quite a thing to unlearn, isn't it?!
It is! I'm finding that different kinds of clothing help eg a loose shirt yesterday made it easier to scratch an itch on my face in various ways. I assume once we have community covid, that approach will mean more clothing washing too, but dependent upon probably exposure. I'm tending to think if it gets bad where I am I'll have to stay home mostly as the logistics of all that extra cleaning beyond handwashing are probably not possible for me to manage well.
Our son tells us spray the mail. Yes a great deal to think about.
Car door handles steering wheel and mirror. The list is never ending. Shoes off at the door and house slippers also makes sense when you see people spit.
Mail and boxes can be left at the door for 24 hours (seems to be the recommendation for cardboard anyway).
We don't yet have any community transmission
A few people have been saying this, and I'm genuinely puzzled by the assertion. "We don't have community transmission" is quite a step beyond "we haven't detected community transmission".
There are (I don't know how many) school kids who were meant to be in isolation in Dunedin – school kids who were spotted in the city centre. Then there are those cruise ship passengers who visited Dunedin and elsewhere who have been diagnosed as having COVID 19. Throw in however many asymptomatic people were coming through those airports until a few days ago…
We can state that community transmission hasn't been detected. Whether or not there actually is community transmission is a different kettle of fish. But I guess we'll be in a position to say one way or the other with some confidence in a wee while.
There are now two cases without links to overseas travel.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120464350/ministry-of-health-update-on-new-coronavirus-cases-in-new-zealand
lol that's maybe a very wee "wee while" then.
It's just shorthand for "we don't have evidence of community transmission." I doubt weka is unaware of the difference.
It's also not unreasonable short-hand. Two weeks ago people were saying it was unlikely that we didn't already have community transmission, and yet here we are two weeks later and still no sign of community transmission. It will turn up, but there's no reason to assume it's turned up before we have evidence for it.
That's quite the intelligent precautionary principle you're advocating there, aye? 🙄
The precautionary principle is bollocks. It's a recipe for never doing anything, ever. We assign experts in public health and epidemiology to advise on this stuff for a reason.
I read a week ago that the enthusiastic uptake of handwashing in Hong Kong has seen a marked reduction in all contagious diseases
Can't find the link though
Everyone getting flu jabs is one very simple low-cost thing everyone can do to reduce the burden on the health system in anticipation of the likely massive load coming up. On top of extra hand-washing and maintaining extra physical distance from others.
All of these actions have cumulative effects, each one reducing the burden on the health system a bit more.
Hand washing and physical distancing will reduce flu a bit, not eliminate it. More people getting flu jabs will reduce the flu season still further, not eliminate it. But if fewer people take up flu jabs, incorrectly thinking that extra hand-washing and extra distancing will protect them, then we're likely to have an extra-bad flu season on top of the expected COVID-19 problem.
That last sentence is a good point.
The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it. Even then it is not a 100% guarantee, but at least those who succumb are likely to be mild cases only. That frees up the time, energy and space for those at the medical front line to be able to concentrate on the corona virus cases.
"The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it"
Unfortunately the flu vaccine is not that effective. I think it's more a harm minimisation thing. Those that can get the vaccine and want to should. As with other vaccine issues, the small number of people that don't want to are less of an issue than those that do but don't access it for whatever reason (or don't care either way but will get vaccinated this time for all those reasons).
I agree, it doesn't seem to work that well with some people. However, since I started to have 'the jab' each year I have been free of flu.
When the Swine flu pandemic raged some years ago I caught it. However, according to my doctor, I didn't have to go to hospital because the general flu vaccine of the day had given me some protection from the severity of the symptoms.
It was a similar situation to the current virus although granted this one is even more serious.
Swine flu is an influenza virus. I don't think the flu vaccine will give protection of severity in covid. We're doing it for different reasons.
So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?
Where is the flu virus right now? Here in NZ? Overseas? Yet to be generated? If it's overseas still, how might it get here, given the travel restrictions? Will it wait till those are lifted?
"So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?"
Not sure how you go that Robert. Handwashing and social distancing and social isolation will have an impact on flu transmission, but we don't know to what extent and it can't be relied upon enough to change public health messaging that people should get a flu vaccine to limit strain on the health system if we get a widespread covid outbreak.
There's always flu in NZ. It gets worse in winter (because of the environment?). Yes, we will get less new strains because of no more tourists, but again, we don't know yet how this will play out, hence erring on the side of caution.
Because human immune responses get depressed when your core body temp is colder. Or where there are large changes in external environments.
Just about the first defense mechanism that is triggered against infections is that the fluid temps in the body are raised. Bacteria and viruses usually have limited working temp ranges that they can thrive in. It also makes the flow of anti-bodies and other defenses move faster and increases the rate of production of t-cells.
The faster the external environment is at tearing body heat away, the harder it is to activate immune systems. But often it seems like changes in environment cause issues. You get adapted to the climate (I really noticed that when in Singapore in 2018)
So being in a warm office with less clothes on and going out into a cold, damp day? (office worker)
Or being cold all the time (poor person)
The measures being advised to reduce spread of covid-19 will probably also reduce the spread of flu, but it there's a vaccine for either you should get it. "Reduced" isn't the same as stopped, and if you end up catching one of them while sick with the other you could be in some serious shit.
I was wondering if that happens (getting two respiratory viruses at the same time). I've been assuming we don't because the immune system gets activated with the first one making a similar viral illness at the same time unlikely. But a bacterial infection might be more likely.
You can get it at the chemist
And increased hand washing will reduce other contagious diseases
We all went to work from home this week. I'd have to go to work to get a company flu-shot… I have done it once when the usual checkup was too late into flu season.
I'd have to go to the doctor for my usual flu-shot… And I have to go there every 3 months for a prescription.
I'm not that happy about going anywhere where other people are at present.
Is there any way that I can get a remote prescription for the heart meds and a virtual flu vaccine? 🙂
Health care workers are more worried about stress related illnesses and the people eating all their hoarded frozen pizzas…
Belt and braces I think.
Some anecdata – since working more from home and getting a regular flu shot. I haven't had flu for 5-10 years. Colds – yes, but fewer. Both vaccines and distancing work in their way. A relative is a nurse and hates winter because of the load of flu cases. If we can take some of that additional burden off our healthcare workers we owe it to them to try.
no.
Gosh! If we all stay abed for long enough we may even halt excessive greenhouse gas emissions and thus eliminate risk of undesirable climate changes. Now that would be a useful unanticipated consequence!
The Prime Minister is to give a statement to the nation at midday today.
The statement will be broadcast on RNZ and TVNZ.
Let's take a breath.
https://twitter.com/NewsroomNZ/status/1241125592562421761
that's live, so not much on the Newsroom page yet.
haha. I do feel for apartment dwellers in places in lock down.
Walk in closet 1 today, closet 2 tomorrow. Sorted.
I plan to go for a little drive every day. Dunno where but will work it out on the day. Have a wee stroll somewhere keeping two metres away from other wandering mortals. Perhaps the East Coast greeting as we pass. Mind you, that's dependent upon petrol still being available.
Oh dear, its a real worry.
Now that I cannot take the dance classes, and I try to limit the number of times I mw the lawns; I've ben working in the garage/workshop "Tidying" up and finishing off working on my 1957 R50 BMW motorbike. (It has quite a history having been originally bought in Pretoria South Africa, ridden up through Africa, around the Continent, down through the Middle East – as you could in those days – to India. Shipped to Perth WA and across the Nullabour to Melbourne and then shipped to Wellington where the original owner had had enough, and sold it, and I bought it in the middle '60's and have owned it ever since.)
But just these past few days I have been doing some baking each afternoon. Date loaf, scones, ginger nuts, tomorrow I plan Loch Katrine Cake.
There should be no shortage of petrol over the coming months – I see the price has been dropping over the past week here. Down to around $1.95 after discount.
Yes it is a worry. I do my shopping early morning or late evening if I can now and that avoids the mad rush. Here the shelves are starting to be replenished and they have extra stackers in during the day as well so the supply side is being addressed. If only the demand side would settle down to normal we would be ok.
I don't normally use my credit card for shopping here, but they have pay wave so you avoid contacting the eftpos touch pad. I have now joined the younger set, and wave my way through the checkout. 🙂
Oh you big skite. Reminds me of this fellow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwzjlmBLfrQ&list=RDCMUCTl3QQTvqHFjurroKxexy2Q&start_radio=1&t=0
Damm won't work. try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ZY0whadOA
🙂 thanks for that.
I've started longing for the daily bike after 4 days without the week-day commute. Mostly electricity and a bit of muscle.
Examining logic
The Govt says we should not close schools now as the old people looking after the children maybe at risk. Did the media ever ask the questions, how many families did it really involve. Here are some views
All high school students and even intermediate students can be at home (whats that as percentage of total school children). If the have younger siblings they can look after them while their parents are at work. Other work arounds for the young ones can be achieved (are we not the number 8 wire gen).
For those families where grandparents are the only caregivers, their children would be best off at home as they would more likely be contaminated at school.
I'm shocked at the in ability of our media (to ask probing Qs) and Gov to not think outside the box. They have not acted quick enough or decisively enough. Please, we need more and better restrictions…..
Social distancing is not happening at schools. We should also shut all pubs, clubs etc
Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick…………..
To the people who have already stated, we need to go fast and hard and use Korea models, well done.
One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
karl, you do know there is a plan re schools….schools will probably end up closing as we go through the different stages of the plan.
No school in the weekend, no school sports either and that's where we are at today, Saturday. We haven't got to Sunday yet and Monday is still two sleeps away.
The Government is poised to provide home internet and laptop or tablet devices for about 70,000 schoolchildren in the event that schools have to close due to coronavirus.
karl, do you have school aged children?
Yes Cinny, schools are indeed getting prepared to shut down, shit takes planning, and tomorrow there will be a new plan, and the next day a new plan etc … if people are that terrified of their kids being at school keep them home, my kids teachers are saying only half the kids are showing up anyway. Clean your hands, keep your distance, think for yourself.
"Clean your hands, keep your distance, think for yourself. "
Amen.
Why are we anxious about "children's education" in the face of a pandemic???
Providing laptops and tablets – pleeeease!
Spend some time with the trees.
Lmao!
Those not in the city be like…. stack the wood, dig over the garden, yes you can make dinner, come on kids let's clean the guttering, wipe out the cupboards, bike ride maybe?
Already making a list, going to call it part of the pandemic plan….kids can't argue with that 🙂
The tricky bit is, for some parents, if their kids have no school then the grandparents look after them. For some of those grandparents they are in the at risk category. And grandparents are usually ace when it comes to keeping kids off their devices 🙂
I am grandparent. I am not at risk. Give me grandchildren. They will sit in wheelbarrow – I will leg it. We will swim in estuary, there will be ice blocks, the day will pass. We will sleep well.
That should always happen
Good link. Interesting time line.
In 5 days, China went from detecting a couple of cases of unusual pneumonia to alerting WHO; closed food markets within a week and had shut down 15 cities within the month.
And a week after all of that (Jan 30), WHO declared an international public health emergency.
Was talking with my sister yesterday evening. She lives in Scotland. Schools are shut for all but the children of "front line workers" and teachers. Special provisions have been put in place for them so they can still attend classes. And "working from home" measures have been put in place for those who can (she can't).
Meanwhile, all sporting venues and gyms have been shut, which I only mention because I thought it quite amusing that golf courses were included 🙂
This morning's headlines from the UK were around closing pubs etc.
Live stream of Ardern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2eu2Z0R94M
Just watching the national address……..
Did NZ Inc really go hard and fast????? Really, man I must be on another planet.
I think we as a Nation are too chillaxed, the media are soooo average. From the outside looking in, the Gov and the media seem to form a little love bubble……
Risk = Probability x Consequence
We KNOW, that other countries are exploding at the moment (feed that into your probability above).
If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?
What would YOU DO?
Unknowns (effects probability…… there are tooooo many):
1. Incubation period outliers (eg 24 days)
2. The spread by people who have no visible symptoms
3. The length of time the virus lives on various substrates
4. The real effect on younger people health
5. The number of people infected in NZ that we dont know about
6. Potential terrorist or otherwise purposeful transmission
7. The real social network spreading by schools and other gatherings
One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
You talk about "unknowns", but don't seem to consider them.
A shutdown effectively means martial law (how are you proposing to enforce it?). Your #2 includes the entire population.
The number of casualties from shooting curfew-breakers would surpass Covid-19 in no time.
"If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?"
You could, but you'd have to balance that with the damage done by a hard crash. If we have a pandemic that was killing 50% of the population I think that would have happened. The big issue here is to flatten the curve. Much of the high death rate is (probably) related to how fast and hard the virus hit and that was in countries that had different strategies to NZ.
edit, bearing in mind that this crisis will last a long time. This isn’t going to be over in a few months.
Fair point Weka, but would we not be better placed than everyone else if we get no spread.. We would be in a reallly good position economically etc
Whats ya thoughts
I really like this guy, he is on it: Michael Baker Prof of Public Health (hes on RNZ now),
I would suggest Jacinder listen to him. He is well spoken, educated and is evidenced based and willing to speak out. Please NZ Inc listen to this guy
yeah, he was good. I suspect we will go to Level 3 soon, someone on RNZ said it's likely once we get confirmation of community transmission.
I think alot of the debate is around whether NZ had the potential to have no community transmission ever. I'm not sure that that was ever possibly. If we had shut our borders absolutely, so not letting kiwis back in, and then locking up people with symptoms and people they'd been in contact with, that's probably beyond what we can cope with economically, logistically and socially. Maybe politically too.
"We would be in a really good position economically etc"
Even if we had no cases of Covid-19, we would have no influence whatsoever on the global economy. And we'd hardly be saying "We are virus-free, come visit NZ!".
So our position would be the same.
How do you know that the Government is not already receiving and considering this/his advice and integrating with all the other information it is receiving from all sorts of other sources and directions as well, not just medical? Absence of evidence (i.e. not doing exactly what you want and what Prof Baker is arguing) is not evidence of absence (i.e. the Government not taking on board everything but sticking its fingers in its ears).
"Shut down the country" comes at a huge cost, and not just an economic one. There's also the social cost of forcing isolation on people, and there's the political cost of depriving your voters of their liberty, which you won't do without a really fucking good reason if you want them to vote for you again.
So, what would have been gained from imposing martial law and depriving people of their liberty a few weeks ago? There isn't any keeping the virus out, there's only slowing it down so it doesn't overwhelm the health system, so it's not like we'd be spared the epidemic by such drastic measures. Where's the benefit?
As to the cost, look at the economic damage that's going to be wreaked just by the restrictions that have already been imposed. If those restrictions had been imposed a month earlier, we'd already have trashed the economy by now, for the sake of having a lower number of cases than the 50-odd we have now. Any government that thought that was a good cost/benefit ratio would be unfit to govern. Which is why the government is advised by experts in public health and epidemiology, rather than reckons from people on the Internet.
Just asking…how long has Ardern had the photo of Savage smiling paternally down over her left shoulder?
Since the monumental PR blunder of Back Then when they launched the dismal failure that was Kiwibuld and tried to pass off Kiwibuild as some modern day Savage inspired State Housing plan… you'd think they'd steer clear of having Our Leader channeling Savage.
It's wrong. And it undermines the Government's credibility.
Ardern and her government haven't earned the right yet.
Perhaps more of us should listen to the interview found over on The Daily Blog between Bryan Bruce and Susan St John.
😉
Yes, that's the big issue today. A photograph.
It's all about the messaging observer, all about the messaging.
The flag was there too. What's that about? I haven't seen any complaints about the colour of the clothes she was wearing and how she did her har. No doubt someone has complained. A headscarf would have been good for a laugh.
The state of the Nation speech took place in the Prime Minister's office Rosemary.
Jacinda Ardern is entitled to hang a picture of whoever she likes in her own office. The reason we have never seen it before is because it is very unusual for a PM to make a speech from the Office of the Prime Minister. It's normally off limits to members of the public and the media.
But these are extraordinary times requiring extraordinary measures.
Observer, Ha!!! I reckon.
The virus does not really care about the Govs alert levels and f*^&*ing Framework
Risk = Probability X Consequence
Use ya head….. Just the consequence alone is enough
New post up on Ardern's announcement
https://thestandard.org.nz/arderns-announcement-about-the-new-4-level-alert-system-for-coronavirus/
Michael Baker Prof of Public Health is wanting to get ahead of the game…
Good on ya
One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
From your link karl……
Did you read it? Would love your opinion
The writer appears to have done much analysis of how other countries have/are handling the situation. Theres some interesting content there.
No doubt said piece is doing the rounds as the writer is a creator of viral applications, has a billion dollar company and the topical material has all the key words search engines would index. $$$$$$$
Anyways…. 🙂 This is how I see it… if communication is engaged then hopefully the virus won't get a grip here. Government, media, word of mouth, social media etc correctly informing people on what to do, keeping people updated and aware (rather than stressed and terrified – people can make bad choices when they are freaking out). Our government is doing a fantastic job making sure people are accurately informed.
China used an enormous ammount of military muscle to ensure people were doing as they were told, personally I found it a bit disturbing, but that's how China rolls. How about those Chinese celeb's feel good video to tone down the aspect of military force re the virus? Wowzers!
Am also rather skeptical of the numbers China has reported. Which makes me mindful of any virus anlaysis re Chinese data.
I'm full of praise for our government, the website https://covid19.govt.nz/ is brilliant.
This particular link https://covid19.govt.nz/help-and-advice/resources/ has allowed me to print out a stack of posters and plaster them all over our office window this morning. I encourage any one with a business or office with high foot traffic to do the same.
Here's the bizzare video, it's from over a month ago
For a 2min clip with english subtitles, go to 22.50 on this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUS-W81mElQ
For the full video this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEcdOordjWU
When we go into phase 3, I suspect that we start using the police and the military to enforce as well.
There are always dickheads who really couldn't give a rats arse about others and who will recklessly endanger others. Personally I'd favour judge making orders, a prompt island quarantine for them with an armed guard detachment and kill orders. They can appeal after the emergency has diminished.
It is a far better choice than throwing them into an all-ready overcrowded prison system. I vaguely remember that all of that was all covered in the available civil emergency orders.
Incidentally, they should be looking to start releasing low risk and remand prisoners (if they haven't already). Reducing crowding in the prison system is the only way that they will suppress potential outbreaks there.
I read a chunk of that the other day. I think he's missing some important parts, and I'd like to see some informed critique of his position. He's not an epidemiologist nor a pandemic management expert.
I do agree that people need to be staying home now as much as possible. I've been more careful for the past fortnight.
Hi there Weka, yip agree with you on the stay at home thing
Michael Baker Prof of Public Health is on to it in terms of suggesting going harder than what the current Govt is doing. Just to support Michael:
Take for example the Flights landed into NZ at the airport on 18th March. This is just the tip of the iceberg (and this is just a sample of one airport in NZ)
If you take into consideration the list of unknowns I mentioned above (see post 9), like some people not having symptoms then factor it into the below……your ability to contact trace is shot to hell… Now include all the other international airports in NZ and the flights that came over the last few months……
Risk = Probability X Consequence
The flight information below is provided to Auckland Airport by the airlines,
[Deleted long list of flights with numbers and arrival times and replaced with link: https://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/flights – Incognito]
Please provide a link to the flight information from which you got that abbreviated sample as it is too long and does not contain pertinent info. I will delete or drastically shorten the list shortly but I’m happy to put in a link if you can provide one.
… not to mention the multiple repeats of the same flight, such as 6 repeats of QF153 and 4 of NZ124 …
Meanwhile, since the airport is the biggest source of transport noise at my place, I’m definitely lovin’ the reduced number of flights over the past week or two.
Cheers Andre, there are errors due to the speed with which the list was edited.
The point is to highlight….. there were soooooo many flights into NZ. The risk of infection is high with no way of tracing all social interations.
Andre, thanks….. example of too much coffee and not concentrating
The data has much more flights than that
two of your comments got caught in the filter, please check that your name and email address are the same every time.
it was the email address.
Hi Incognito
Thanks, I see your point, was just trying to hit home the point there were a lot of flights into NZ and we wont be able to trace all the social interactions.
The site is:
https://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/flights (they wont show the 18th as its now past)
It isn't that relevant as information unless you know the numbers of passengers and staff.
From what I understand, they’re only really letting NZ passport holders and the immediate family in (and being excessively zealous at that according to one report this morning (that I can’t find)).
Most of the aircraft are now coming in with limited passengers and, I suspect, mostly to pick up outgoing passengers from our tourists trapped here.
Re the flights used by people in NZ who have now been confirmed or are suspected of having the virus, the flight information in this list is probably far more relevant than the lists of overall flights in and out of certain airports on certain dates. .
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-cases
The travel information in that list is just the base information being made public.
The highly sophisticated flight information systems (for both international and domestic flights) available to/used by airlines are capable of providing information for many other uses/agencies, including those of Interpol for example.  
I think that these systems are probably being used to identify flights, contact (transit, origin) points, dates, passenger lists etc relevant to persons who are confirmed or suspected of having coronavirus, not only in those in NZ but also those in other countries.
Ta
I will cut short your list (sorry) and replace with your link.
Next time, please think of the readers of TS who have to scroll through all of that space with next to useless info, particularly when one simple link will suffice.
Does anybody know if they will try installing public sanitising or hygiene stations in public, e.g. at the Entrances and Exits of supermarkets? The footwear cleaning hygiene stations in the Waitakere Ranges, for example, were only moderately successful because of compliance issues (i.e. people not using them or not using them correctly). However, these were not aimed at personal health and safety and there was control or close supervision.
All three supermarkets in my smallish Waikato town had stations dispensing hand wipes (alcohol based by the smell of it) as of a couple of days ago.
No idea if it is just a local initiative or nationwide.
Ta
Until yesterday the New World in my small Wairarapa town had a wipe dispenser at the door. It has been empty several times and was missing today. I asked a staff member who said people had been pulling out strings of them and they can't get any more. There's still a small sanitiser station at the main entrance, often hidden behind a raffle table and hard to spot as it's the same colour as the doorway.
I feel sorry for the frontline staff having to watch their efforts to help abused like this, they have been unfailingly cheerful patient heroes since this upheaval began.
I've been amazed at staff being so patient and helpful in various stores I've been dealing with. It's actually makes me feel better about how we're going to manage.
There are overseas distillers starting to make alcohol for hand sanitisers and making the sanitisers themselves. I've heard rumours of this in NZ too.
Re distillers moving to making hand sanitisers, I posted on this yesterday – and lived to regret it! LOL
Comment:Open mike 20/03/2020
Heh, I missed that thread.
Grey Lynn Countdown had them in this week (and possibly earlier).
They need signposting.
I applaud the BOP iwi Te Whanau-a- Apanui closing borders to outsiders.
In early February, if our leaders had “vision “ they would have closed NZs island borders and we could have lived fairly normal lives – without tourism!
But “In February it would have seemed unimaginable to close NZ borders to the world. “ according to our PM.
It was totally imaginable to me at that time.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12318689
[link added and quote tidied – weka]
Considering that most nz c19 cases are returning nz citizens shitting the boarders earlier wouldnt have much difference. Unless you're suggesting we dont let kiwis come home
we should have put them in isolation at the airport. Have the military set up camps, 14 days, two consecutive tests – and if these are negative you may be released into the larger public.
Having these guys come home and may or may not self isolate was the dumbest fucking thing ever.
but i have come to the conclusion that the more education people have the less they are able to think logically.
How many people have come into the country since the outbreak started in China? And all the people they had close contact with? I can't see how logistically it would have been possible to quarantine them all.
Those spelling mistakes were great 😀
You know you a potty mouth when your keyboard autocorrects to shitting .
Janet please provide a link when quoting, every time. Especially important right now with lots of information changing fast.
yep.
it was totally imaginable to us here in tourist land also, as no tourists arrived.
The few stragglers that came to freedom camp and the few boats – we could have done without them.
The saddest thing is, that there a people that desperatly want to stay home, take the kids out of school and just stay the fuck at home until this passes but they can't.
Has Labour cancelled the 12 week standdown for people who can't cope anymore and want to stay home and thus risk being fired?
Anyone?
the stand down for getting the dole was removed across the board a few weeks ago. You can look at the WINZ site to see if there are conditions on that.
good, if that women comes back in for a coffee i will let her know that. Cause she wants to stay home, she wants to take her kids out of school and is afraid that we ill get fired if she does so, and if that happens that she will be stood down by Winz. The only announcment of that that i saw was a few weeks ago, and i linked to the article where the PM stated that 'She was in principe for it".
And please Weka, can you link to your statement?
short version of what I posted below: mandatory stand down for all benefits is lifted until Nov. Stand down for leaving a job or getting fired is still in place, but I would expect there to be more leeway at the moment.
About 3/4 way down the page if you open all the thingies first.
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/emergencies/2020/coronavirus.html#null
Sorry, that doesn't answer your question. There's this,
There's quite a bit of discussion on twitter amongst beneficiaries and advocates about how to interpret policy now. There are lots of good reasons for leaving a job now that wouldn't have applied before. Also hearing various reports about how well WINZ is treating people. If someone is in this situation I'd check the policy wording then the legislation. If they're giving 13 week stand downs to people there will be support to go hard out on that, but also there still needs to be a good reason.
there is no need for a discussion about what that means. It states quite clearly that if you cause your loss of job or you leave your job because you can't cope anymore, you get a stand down period of 13 weeks,.
Good grief. Good fucking grief.
Sure, some people give up, others like to do the mahi of changing things. I have all respect for the people that force WINZ to change.
you can discuss this until the end of the day and feel like you are changing things.
as of now, people who would like to take their kids out of kindy and stay at home however will have a stand down period of 13weeks if they quit their job, and that is not the fault of Winz, but the current government who had done nothing to change the nature of Winz. The drones at Winz don't make the rules, the follow the orders that come down form the Ministry of Social Welfare.
But yeah, chatting on twitter is gonna change things. Sure sure.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about Sabine. There's a long history of changes at WINZ because of the mahi that beneficiaries and advocates do. Not everyone can do that, but your personal beliefs about what is not achievable won't stop other people getting on with it.
13 week stand downs are shit. I remember when they came in, and they're absolutlely a tool of neoliberalism to force a low wage workforce to keep the economy going. They're also part of bludger meme culture. They should have been removed a long time ago.
Things is, removing them entirely and suddenly as a stand alone policy during the start of a global emergency where people are shit scared is a recipe for chaos. One thing that would happen is that businesses that are already under huge pressure would suddenly find themselves short of workers. I'm thinking about work that is essential to society continuing to function that upholds wellbeing personal and collective.
Changing the criteria around them makes sense, and looking at the policy and law would be a way to understand how to do that. But hey, why bother when one can sit on the internet moaning about pretty much everything. I really hope people don't ask you about this because telling people that Labour are shit and that people can't do anything about their situation strikes me as the opposite of what is needed right now.
Weka,
i have as many and as much of an idea as to what to do with Winz then you do.
But, this thirteen week stand down period is government sanctioned, ordered, and implemented. And thus it is the current governments orders, aka the Labour/Green/NZfirst.
And this current government by emergency degree even could have abolished it so that people who can not cope anymore, who are afraid, who would like to stay at home with their children, could leave their jobs and do so.
In fact it would be the single smartest thing the Government could do now is to offer people unemployment benefits on demand if they only stay at home.
I don't know what type of news you get Weka, mine currently come from France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Holland and Belgium. All places where i have friends and family. I speak the languages, i can listen to their news, and you and this government have no fucking idea of the shit show that is gonna come. full stop.
You, I, Bill and all of us should stay at home, the borders should have been closed weeks ago, NZ residence should have been cited home weeks ago, our hospitals should have been put on Red fucking Alert weeks ago. And cruise ships should have been blocked from docking at least since January.
And we go to work, because this fucking useless government, this bullshit coalition of the most useless people i have ever come across in government is doing nothing to allow people to stay the fuck at home.
Its not only that the hospitals will be over run to the point that if you have a heart attack or a broken bone or a emergency cesarian you can't because there is no bed available, the nurses and doctors themselves are sick and dying – 14 doctors in Italy died alone. In the East of France nurses and doctors will die and the nurses and doctors know this.
This virus kills Weka. All ages. It kills.
So you can chat on twitter and so on and so forth in the hope of changing something some time, but this is different.
Bill is right when he said that all the Government has to do is send a weekly check to everyone for then next 12 odd weeks. It would allow many people to quit their jobs, take their kids out of school and stay the fuck at home.
this video under when you click on the link below is from italy for a Belgium TV, its in french, but i think you can understand it anyways.
https://www.facebook.com/joel.hasselin/videos/3898381010179814
Good employers are already telling their staff to stay home and allowing them to work from home or have special leave and so on. Shit employers are not.
I remember 9/11 and those workers who had previously left the building dying because they went back in as their shitty employers wouldn't pay them if they didn't.
Last thing we need right now is the coercive power of the state supporting those employers and people having to argue with WINZ that they had good cause to leave. People aren't stupid they still need money etc but there are many who have children with lung conditions or are vulnerable themselves and so on. They should have absolute freedom to choose. Have more faith in your fellow citizen – people won't just abandon their employment on a whim. FFS.
I'm not sure DoS. If the advice is 'leave your job if you want to and go on the dole', then there will be people who will do that because we are all afraid. Some won't be able to afford to but some will.
Obviously there will be people who need to and should be able to, hence my question about how WINZ are interpreting the policy atm.
I want my elderly parents' homehelp to stay in place. What's going to happen to them if their worker leaves her job this week? There will be a myriad of examples where conflicting needs and the public health good will clash. I'm more interested in looking at how that whole system works and needs to remain functional, rather than taking single parts of the system and hacking them out of panic.
(imo this is what the government is doing, looking at a range of intersecting systems and figuring out how to manage them all the best, understanding that none of them will be ideal).
If you can see a way to suddenly remove the 13 week stand down and keep working happening that is essential, I’d be interested. What you appear to be saying is we should rely solely on trusting people. I’m much more trust in god and tie up your camel.
It’s not a whim that will have more people leaving their jobs, it’s understandable fear, and some of that fear is not grounded in reality.
I don't think the 13 week standown will stop anyone leaving their job through fear. It will just make it more difficult for them to manage after leaving.
Some people go to work despite their anxiety – from what I'm seeing they are already seeing their anxiety ramping up. State coercion isn't needed right now. Compassion and understanding is, support by the employers to reduce their anxiety, knowing that if it all gets too much they will be supported may be more helpful in the long run.
It shouldn't be a competition between anxieties – staying at work and getting sick vs finishing work and having no income for 13 weeks.
In my review removing that 13 week stand-down worry should be a help not a hindrance – one less thing to worry about. It is only an exertion of state power to support the employer class after all.
Let me put it another way.
In the 1918 pandemic there were doctors who worked at the frontline and died. Then there were doctors who stayed away and did not and had thriving businesses after the pandemic was over.
Already some doctors are busier than they should be because others have limited their services/hours, etc.
Will the coercive power of the state be applied to doctors who withdraw their services or chemists who may do so. Will they get 13 weeks of no state subsidies?
Is coerciveness to be only applied to the people who can least afford to have the choices to withdraw their labour that the well-off have. The fact that many of those caring are Maori and Polynesian and are at greatest risk means we should think about this a little more carefully.
Hi, I totally respect peoples opinions about not going as hard as China, but would respectfully disagree.
Being too kind can be cruel as well. It reminds me of the lyrics…..by the FUGEES
Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Killing me softly with his song
Telling my whole life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Remember the WHO advising that it was wrong to close boarders…..
You can take down entire countries with the wrong kind of kindness mindset, tough love maybe is what is needed. I agree with the way China has gone after the problem to a degree (I didnt see mass shootings or riots….). What do you think people on the standard, what would you do.
Check out whats happening in Europe and compare to China……. maybe NZ Inc is being too nice
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51982495
Many countries and regions took new measures on Friday, including:
The leadership in the USA and the UK has been seriously lacking. By any reasonable measure, they are significantly worse off.
I do understand your concerns, we're all worried – but the comparisons you're making aren't very helpful.
As for China, we simply don't know what has happened there because they have no free media. Of course we haven't seen trouble – who would be showing us? Western journos aren't wandering freely around Wuhan, any more than they can report the oppression of the Uyghurs.
there media in China is no more free nor less then ours.
they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.
China has been excellent about this. The US however is shitshow that is created on purpose by the Shitter in Chief who would like to profit of a deadly crisis.
I doubt his brainrot would enable him to "coalesce" that thought
they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.
And vested interests ready to spoon feed compliant stenographers – the RussiaGate b/s (charges against the IRA dropped btw), the Uyghur myth, the nonsense about Venezuela, Syria, Nicaragua, Iran…the list extends.
this might actually be good news.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/20/1929278/-BREAKING-Australia-Leads-the-Way-in-Developing-a-Vaccine-and-a-Cure-for-COVID-19?utm_campaign=trending
not holding my breath, but who knows.
Apparently, developing 'a vaccine' isn't really difficult. Getting one that works in the human body, and doesn't cause unforeseen complications (including magnifying the effects of a virus in the event of infection) – not so easy.
one step at a time.
not easy indeed.
Correct. It has to be safe and effective. This will take time, including testing on a reasonably large scale.
Don’t rush to deploy COVID-19 vaccines and drugs without sufficient safety guarantees
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00751-9
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/politics/2020/03/18/1087930/the-politics-of-the-covid-19-relief-package
"The increase in beneficiary payments makes economic sense for a number of reasons. First, those on low incomes are more likely to spend the increase, thus keeping consumption up. Second, in"
Good piece of analysis from Newsroom.
Less traffic, nearby gym and sports field quiet and no smoke from the sports bar this winter, tramping tracks and huts uncluttered, people planting veges, an end to workplace dysfunction, almost no suburban truck traffic on my AK route this morning. Big loss of value from retirement savings. Sink more piss and the wife smiles. Work from home in the garage with door open onto the garden. More likely to be dead soon – "old man's friend" and hopefully no big event funeral. I savour it all the more now, but anguish for the young – bless and keep them !!!!
Awww, isn't that sweet? Kaikoura residents unite to return confused baby birds to the sea
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/20/taxi-endangered-new-zealand-seabirds-get-a-lift-to-safety-after-crash-landing-in-fog
"Caremongering" trend started in Canada, where the idea is for caring to become contagious. People are so good.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51915723
Thanks for the memories Kenny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hx4gdlfamo
Those were the golden days of music. Him + Dolly esp.
Reuben James & Ruby (don’t take your love to town) – two of Kenny’s best songs.
He will be missed
I like his earlier psychedelic rock stuff, I just dropped in (to see what condition my condition was in), brilliant.
Goodbye and farewell, Kenny Rogers.
The shadow on the wall tells me the sun is goin' down…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChPI5pAet8
On another note we're getting some movies earlier than planned.
https://www.indiewire.com/feature/best-new-movies-digital-purchase-1202219469/