Open mike 21/03/2023

17 comments on “Open mike 21/03/2023 ”

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1. Anker 1

   21 March 2023 at 8:20 am

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/immigration-new-zealand-reviews-entry-for-uk-anti-trans-activist-kellie-jay-keen-minshull/FQNQMWZQ7NFKVMWIJ4RUUELZJ4/?utm_source=newsshowcase&utm_medium=gnews&utm_campaign=CDAQn4Xtvt6thP9JGL20p8TYhPndrQEqEAgAKgcICjCH7rcLMJSJzwM&utm_content=rundown

   Speaking to the media, Hipkins said he condemned people who used their right to free speech in a way that seeks to deliberately create division.
   This, he said, applied to both the anti-transgender rights discussion and Nazi messaging.
   Kellie-Jae holds her Let Women Speak events to do just that i.e. Let women Speak. She has renounced Nazis and says she abhors them.

   Chris Hipkins seems to be making a habit of misleading and scapegoating women. He had to apologise to Charlotee Bellis.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/469562/chris-hipkins-apologises-to-charlotte-bellis-for-comments-on-miq-application

   and this as well.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/lockdown-blunder-woman-centre-public-storm-wants-exceptional-apology
   • Visubversa 1.1

     21 March 2023 at 8:58 am

     Yes, two groups of violent and homophobic young men turned up to stop women speaking about the erosion of their sex based rights and protections – and all of a sudden it is the women's fault!
     • Shanreagh 1.1.1

       21 March 2023 at 1:02 pm

       Why am I not surprised?

       We want things like safety, equal rights.

       All of sudden these are violent, civil rights breaching, hateful objects to aspire to.

       To me it seems as though, as Weka said yesterday, some work needs to be done so that if Rape Crisis centres are needed, better changing and toiletting arrangements are needed, that some work/lobbying is done by those who want/need them.

       weka…

       20 March 2023 at 2:52 pm

       20 March 2023 at 6:47 pm

       "it's not hard to understand that a trans women who lives in a place where they are at risk from transphobic men in men's toilets has difficulty finding somewhere to pee and poo. Women can hardly argue for single sex spaces on the grounds of dignity if they deny this to TW. I'm not saying TW should use women's toilets, I'm saying this is an area where there are clearly trans rights issues. (my underlining)

       Yes, I agree, trans people should do the mahi to get society to provide appropriate services, and not at the expense of women."

       and

       here's another example then. Women created refuges and rape crisis centres. Trans people can do the same, create their own refuges and rape crisis centres. (my underlining) Hell, women would help them do it.

       Instead, there are TW taking women's hard work and safe spaces and telling women to either fuck off or learn how to manage their trauma better and deal with their rape PTSD alongside males in the same space.

       There are places in the UK now where there are no longer any female only rape crisis centres. Stop and think about that for a minute.

       There have been legal challenges to the notion that transwomen counsellors are acceptable to female survivors of male rape.

       https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

       https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2022/05/05/brighton-rape-crisis-centre-sued-over-refusal-to-offer-female-only-groups/

       There have been Canadian cases as well that I am trying to find.

       To me it is real Elephant in the room, 1984, Alice in Wonderland, Emperor has no Clothes' in the use of language stuff, to mix all these phrases, that males counselling by males of females about intimate male violence a truly odd notion, if it is the only service offered.

       My mind boggles.

       The fact that no offers to see a bio female counsellor seem to have been made means that the end result could be that females are denied access to counselling.

       What is the objection to the setting up of services, rooms etc for TW. If it is a question of cost/labour then like Weka I would help.

       My gut feeling is that women are being punished, yet again, by males for not agreeing with some male fantasy.

       The fantasy is keeping one's intact male genitalia while dressing as women. If it was for real then there would have been no concern with keeping the previous arrangements about living as a woman and transitioning before applying for a changed birth certificate.

       And again from Weka
       ‘But self ID as a social change has definitely changed things for women. This is why KJK is so controversial, she says that TW aren’t women. It shouldn’t be radical to say that.’
   • tWiggle 1.2

     21 March 2023 at 9:10 am

     A Kiwi feminist discussing KJK's campaign:

     " Standing for Women, the group she founded, is wholly centred on her; it has become a literal cult of personality."

     https://womensliberationaotearoa.org.nz/hyperbole-waives-the-rules/

     Now I understand why, when I have been posting reasonable critiques of KJK from different sources, her Standanista supporters have either ignored the content, if pointing up the less defensible bits, like 2018's quote that transgender men should be sterilised; or have jumped on critique as smearing.

     I also bet that KJK's campaign is the source of much of the SHOCK-HORROR anti-transgender content I have been reading here recently. These highly emotive, but low on data, Standard posts meant I had to go hunting for facts on the topic elsewhere.

     The thoughtful 'hyperbole' article (thoughtful is a high-value word for me) also says 'Her current tour is sponsored by the American Conservative Union which organises the CPACs in the US and elsewhere.' I 100% support the Devil and long spoons evaluation from someone yesterday.

     [you’re skating on thin ground here in how you characterise both other commenters and the general debate. I suggest you stick to facts and back them up as you go, because this kind of innuendo without substance is typical of the anti-GC narrative and it’s not appropriate for TS. I will deal with your characterisation in a comment, but take this as a warning to up your game and stay focused on the politics rather than misrepresenting other people – weka]
     • weka 1.2.1

       21 March 2023 at 10:38 am

       mod note.
     • weka 1.2.2

       21 March 2023 at 12:05 pm

       1. Women's Liberation Aotearoa is a left wing, feminist, gender critical grass roots organisation.

       2. many women have critiqued KJK including on TS

       3. what you call your reasonable critiques have often been vague criticisms without much evidence.

       4. you seem to be largely ignoring responses to your comments on KJK. https://thestandard.org.nz/search/twiggle/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

       Including this one where I linked a tweet to the WLA piece and my response to it https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-20-03-2023/#comment-1940000

       and this where we responded to the sterilisation tweet https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-20-03-2023/#comment-1939994

       5. I welcome intelligent critique of KJK, including from you. I'm asking you to do two things. One is explain your thinking more. The other is to quote and link to evidence of your assertions so that we know what you are referring to and can see the context.
     • weka 1.2.3

       21 March 2023 at 12:19 pm

       I also bet that KJK's campaign is the source of much of the SHOCK-HORROR anti-transgender content I have been reading here recently. These highly emotive, but low on data, Standard posts meant I had to go hunting for facts on the topic elsewhere.

       this is the worst of slur debate. You don't say what you consider shock-horror, my guess is you are fundamentally opposed to GC positions and instead of being honest about that and arguing your case, you cast a wide aspersion.

       Many of the comments from GC people in the past few days have been evidence heavy. You are the one posting low data comments.

       If you want facts, just ask. There are quite a number of people here, including in the conversation in the past two days who are very well informed about the issues from all sides. You don't have to agree, but if you ask for facts you can then assess the evidence presented. For instance, if you had asked who funded the Australian LWS tour, a number of us could have told you. It's not a secret and has been widely discussed in recent weeks.

       I've gone to the trouble of laying all this out because the kind of slur debate you just did is common from gender ideology activists. It stands in stark contrast to how we do things at TS, which has robust debate ethic including making coherent arguments and backing them up with evidence.

       from the Policy,

       This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.

       Yes it takes more time and effort, but that's how we get robust debate instead of descending into social media-esque rumour mongering and dishonesty politics. I will moderate to maintain intelligent debate here especially on this topic which is highly emotive for a lot of people and which is often a shit show on other platforms. As I said you are welcome to bring your views to the debate, and you have to do them within the general debate culture of The Standard.
     • tWiggle 1.2.4

       21 March 2023 at 2:01 pm

       Hi weka. The opinion I posted this morning arose from two short posts of mine yesterday very close to midnight. I didn't check there first for later answers to those posts, which are there now. You explained (very thoughtfully!) where KJK's ideas sit historically, and about ambivialence to parts of her discourse. Someone made a good fist of providing context of the sterilisation quote, too.

       So I apologise for my rushing in this morning with giant feet, thinking those 2 posts sunk without a trace. Thank you to those taking the time to keep dialogue open.

       Yesterday's discussion on trans issues was really exciting at times, with some fantastic contributions. Thanks to The Standard, for your ideas playpen.
       • weka 1.2.4.1

         21 March 2023 at 3:03 pm

         thanks tWiggle, really appreciate that.

         I still hold some hope that progressive people will find a way forward that works for women, LGB, and gender non conforming people, all of us, so long as we can keep lines of good communication open.
2. Anker 2

   21 March 2023 at 8:37 am

   And this quote from the link above about the Northland women who sparked lockdown

   "Although I am glad the truth has come full circle… My main concern is the accountability and integrity of our Government and the lies in which the public clearly believed – if not direct lies, then the comments made to give the public the impression and idea of who we are," she said.

   "I truly hope that the lesson learnt here is a lesson for the Government and that the people of New Zealand will not stand for misleading or false information and antics carried out by those of whom we choose to lead our country."
3. Shanreagh 3

   21 March 2023 at 1:39 pm

   I put this link to a petition launched to counter these Stop Co Governance meetings by Julian Batchelor.

   Others may interested.

   https://www.change.org/p/the-stop-co-govenance-tour-is-in-breach-of-nzbora-and-human-rights-act?signed=true

   Do we let these continue to throw sunlight on them or not?
   • Hunter Thompson II 3.1

     21 March 2023 at 6:29 pm

     Opinions on co-governance will differ wildly (largely, I suspect, because no-one can give a sure-fire definition of it, nor assurances as to how it will work).

     I don't know anything about the Stop CG movement but they must be entitled to have their views and express them, provided no laws are infringed. Too bad if that upsets some of us; it is the price paid for democracy.

     In effect, the Stop CG group are saying they don't agree with a government policy, just as people object to NZ's stance on China, refugee immigrants or biosecurity.
     • tWiggle 3.1.1

       21 March 2023 at 8:42 pm

       However, Stop Co-governance, as with any group pushing a political line, can be called out for peddling lies or hate speech. Peddling is the correct word to apply to Batchelor.

       https://www.newsroom.co.nz/fact-checking-the-co-governance-roadshow
       • Hunter Thompson II 3.1.1.1

         22 March 2023 at 9:04 am

         Thanks for the link. I will keep an eye on the Stop CG outfit, see what they're up to.

         You are correct to oppose outright lies, but it is much harder to define hate speech, as the government has found out.
4. adam 4

   21 March 2023 at 1:54 pm

   Greedy, nasty, and failures of our leaders towards us all.
5. tWiggle 5

   21 March 2023 at 2:15 pm

   Oliver tars all governments with the same brush as the incompetent, openly corrupt, Brexit touting English government.
   • AB 5.1

     21 March 2023 at 3:49 pm

     Oliver muddles everything together. One of those 'successful' guys (mostly men) who are all over the shop. Maybe that's why he gets a slot on the bonkers GB News – his ramblings essentially undermine the possibility of even imagining a legitimate, well-intentioned and activist state that makes life better for its citizens. Such a state might do stuff like protecting its citizens from a pandemic caused by a novel virus, or making progress on fighting climate change – the funders of GB News would hate that.

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