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Open mike 21/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 21st, 2020 - 137 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

137 comments on “Open mike 21/06/2020”

  1. Tired. Shift worker. 1

    Shift end. Radio tells me record day, 150,000 cases reported. Fears of second waves, concerns for -> insert overwhelmed health system/US State/Country name here. Bad. Home. Flick through recorded 6pm news. So sad. Then, man separated from luggage. What? Can someone invent a whinging entitled prat (WEP-20) test? Compulsory pre-flight screening for any signs of whingy-ness. Symptoms of self-importance? No boarding pass for you sir! You need to stay in the country you are in. Don’t come to New Zealand. We need to keep our borders safe from any infection. Protect our media from WEP-20 contagion (symptoms; whinging, moaning, complaining). Protect WEP-20 sufferers from any risk of being inconvenienced at a time when millions are suffering horrible debilitating illness and hundreds of thousands of people are dying. Just saying. Stay where you are. Stay away! Stay safe everyone.

    • observer 1.1

      You deserve a +1 for that.

      It is extraordinary that modern technology means it has never been easier to know what is going on in the world, and yet we seem determined to focus on our navel, more than ever.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1

        IMO, possibly the result of information over-load. Flooded with information about just about everything with most of it being contradictory causing a shut-down in cognition.

        On top of that also being told to 'trust your gut' and 'common sense' both of which are the probably the worst possible pieces of advice ever.

    • ianmac 1.2

      Totally agree TSW! I cannot understand why the grizzlers get air time. Fancy that woman being whisked off in a bus to quarantine. Woe woe. "They didn't tell us we were on our way to Rotorua! We expect much more than a free quarantine in a hotel. We don't care what is best for NZ. We want special luxury deals. Don't you know who I am?"

  2. The Chairman 2

    Interested in China, Hong Kong and the riots in the USA? 

    This is being touted as the interview you must see.    

     

    • joe90 2.1

      tl;dw

      Falun Gongster says shit.

      /

      • The Chairman 2.1.1

        I don't believe so, Joe.

        Here is another must see interview from a totally different source.

        • joe90 2.1.1.1

          Again tl;dw

          A Hudson Institute nob, think Scooter Libby, Reagan, Kissinger, Pence, Dick Cheney, Netanyahu and Paul Ryan, and some dude who scams the desperate with his self-help claptrap say shit.

  3. Sacha 3

    A future path for NZ business: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121881009/how-a-kiwi-media-company-became-the-world-health-organisations-latest-covid19-weapon

    [Toby] Morris is now creative director of all the work The Spinoff team does for the WHO, and it has recruited a team of six to deliver web content, videos and animations.

    A video created by The Spinoff was translated into six languages and used to open the World Health Assembly (WHA) this year, detailing how the WHO is responding to Covid-19. Most of the work relates to the pandemic – such as information on mask guidance that has had 28 million views and written explainer pieces – but it intersects with other streams the WHO works on, such as infographics for malaria and tuberculosis.

    “You check your email in the morning and see the ebola team has been in touch,” says former Metro editor Henry Oliver, now part of the project. “Am I working on malaria or ebola today?”

    “We’ve gone from a standing start to it feels like the main go-to agency on Covid-19, and increasingly on other things as well,” [Duncan] Greive said.

    He said it would have been “unimaginable” if the world had not gone into widespread lockdown. But in the new environment, no one expected a team to be able to turn up to Geneva to pitch for the work, and New Zealand’s comparable success in fighting the virus gave local teams an advantage.

    • Climaction 3.1

      Let’s all stop what we are doing and make government funded videos for each other

      6 jobs created to replace how many lost? This is why labour could lose the election. It’s shills have no idea how the economy works.

       

      • observer 3.1.1

        But National knew. It works by importing lots and lots of people. GDP goes up, property goes up, simple!

        There's a slight flaw in that plan now. But they're sticking with it.

        • Climaction 3.1.1.1

          Weird comment. Labour had two years to stop that and change the economy? If it just carried as National were doing they are as much to blame. 

          • observer 3.1.1.1.1

            The government made numerous changes, as you well know. Ask the real estate agents who complain they can't get the flood of foreign buyers like they used to. Ask the visa scam "schools" who were closed down. Etc.

            • Climaction 3.1.1.1.1.1

              So labour is responsible for the economy and its growing unemployment? 

              • observer

                All governments are ultimately responsible (more accurately, accountable) for the economy. Again, as you well know.

                Playing dumb is really tedious, and I'll let you play alone.

                • Climaction

                  You tried to paint the current problems as a result of the previous governments policies being untenable in the current environment. Then you pointed out that the current government had already enacted policies that should have Reduced employment given current circumstances. I’m trying to work through your stupid before I go and play with my stupid

          • greywarshark 3.1.1.1.2

            edit
            Oh good Climaction – I'm sure you are a bloke and have a great can-do approach.    You are the sort we need in NZ so get away from your keyboard and go and do something – now!

            You can see how there is no time to waste as the world speeds up and it is quite mind-boggling seeing the Worldometer site.  So if you can add your boggling to it al,  something will be done and we expected it by yesterday.

            Worldometer – I am sure it is recommended that sensitive persons do not watch it for more than 10 seconds or it might start a brain spasm.

            https://www.worldometers.info/

            While I watched World births went from 323,800 something to 324,000. Deaths today went to 136,200 in 20 secs. There is an imbalance there which we know about but won’t even try to think through the possibilities of being adult about it.

            Wow look at the Public healthcare expenditure for today go up towards $13 billion. Public education and Public military are changing up as fast as the eye can see. Money spent on video games today about $240 million.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2

        It’s shills have no idea how the economy works.

        The majority of people have NFI how the economy works. Thing is, most economists don't know how the economy works. Most people think that money is the economy forgetting about the actual resources.

        This is most clearly seen when people say that it would only cost a few thousand/millions to feed everyone taking absolutely no account of where the food will come from.

        • Climaction 3.1.2.1

          You’re talking about accountants and financiers.

          economists are very concerned about the allocation of resources and tend to talk around money and the actual price of something.

           

          economics is the study of scarcity. One specialisation in that field could be the study of DTB’s understanding of what things really are and how that scarce knowledge could best be applied

          • greywarshark 3.1.2.1.1

            Oh Climaction    You join a select group of people who have to cut DTB off at the knees because he preaches a different sermon than your lot.    The superiority is lofty, the sanctimony is superb, and the denunciation is damning,

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.2

            economists are very concerned about the allocation of resources

            That's what they tell us but their teachings don't support that. If they did then we wouldn't have private cars because their economies of scale are all wrong.

      • Sacha 3.1.3

        Interesting how the WHO being a public-funded organisation is the main point you saw in that.

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Looks like Labour's election campaign strategy will hinge on evasion of responsibility and accountability.  Assuming that voters will be impressed by this, apparently.  Strikes me as too much of a gamble.

    Ardern and Clark have said that they won’t seek to find who is responsible for the failures, but instead simply want to fix them. The two have overruled deputy prime minister Winston Peters, who said someone should be held responsible.   https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-06-2020/the-week-new-zealands-border-failed/

    Winston's position is likely to be more in accord with the public mood.  However, holding someone responsible isn't the same as making the right person accountable!  The principle of natural justice applies:  punish the wrong-doer, then people will be satisfied that justice has been done.

    All Ardern & Clark are likely to achieve with their preference for traditional Labour evasion of the need for effective enforcement is to make Labour seem like a bunch of wimps in the public mind.  But perhaps they're betting that re-election is so likely that they can afford to be generous and lend National a helping hand…

    • Andre 4.1

      Find the witch and burn her!

      • OnceWasTim 4.1.1

        I'm absolutely no fan of the Deputy Dawg, worse still his BFF, however without finding where things went wrong there's not much chance of ensuring they don't happen again. We don't need to burn the witches, just go with the Peter Principle if they don't want to keep doing the same thing and having the same things go wrong. Or use existing mechanisms such as the Chief Wonder Boy the SSC. As is usual, it can all be done in silence behind the scenes with an army of ex-journalist spin doctors used pacify the masses with some well-chosen words.

        I'm not sure though they won't find out though despite what The Spinoff says, and already some people seem to 'think' they know already. Harman of Harman and Clark fame on RNZ's Sunday for example.

        The sad thing for me is that JA might find that after the next election win, kindness and transformation is still not as easy as first thought.

        • McFlock 4.1.1.1

          Assuming that there is a single person responsible for any and all deficiencies foound, firing them isn't as good at solving the problem as determining whether what they did was abnormal practise for everyone else involved.

          We're likely talking about relatively mundane and routine decisions made many times a day by many people on multiple sites. If it's a training issue rather than an individual deficiency, seeking out the scape-goat for the incident that gets discovered is worse than unproductive, as it can give everyone else false confidence that the system is robust even though they are unaware they are making the same mistakes as the person who got fired.

          • OnceWasTim 4.1.1.1.1

            "We're likely talking about relatively mundane and routine decisions made many times a day by many people on multiple sites."

            /agreed (There won't be a single person responsible)

            And not all of those people necessarily got the memo. Understandable in the early stages of the emergency – not so much later on. I think Harman lays the blame at several people

            Having a birds-eye view of the Bay Plaza Quarantine Hotel, I noticed that immediately after the shit hit the fan, some things changed organisationally pretty rapidly in the rear carpark.

            It is necessary though to find out where the 'system' went haywire though and those (collectively or otherwise) responsible for that 'system' to try and make sure they fully understand what's required and don't keep making the same mistakes. 

            If necessary, we can burn the witches later – or not.

            Personally, I just have a problem when the same people keep making the same mistakes (or even operate with bullying or racist attitudes) without any consequence as we see in some places in the PS. Sometimes they even get promoted.

            back later

            • McFlock 4.1.1.1.1.1

              yeah, not looking to punish individuals isn't the same as not investigating the failure. In fact it lets people speak openly about the failures they might feel responsible for without fear of losing their jobs.

              There's been no hint of actual misconduct (e.g. bribes, or intentionally neglecting the job) so far. It's more a case of polishing a system that seems to have worked well and not have any major entrenched issues, rather than having to fix an absolute shitshow.

    • The Chairman 4.2

      If the country goes back into lock-down as a result of this incompetence, Labour risk bearing the brunt come election time.

      • observer 4.2.1

        There has not yet been a single case of community transfer, after we got to zero. Not one.

        So no, we won't be going into lockdown. Not unless we deliberately invite the virus in. That is literally the opposition's policy.

        • Climaction 4.2.1.1

          Figuratively is the word you are looking for.

          • observer 4.2.1.1.1

            No, it is literally true.

            National's stated policy is to invite thousands of people from Covid-19 countries to NZ, right now.

            https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2006/S00104/under-national-international-students-would-be-back.htm

            • Climaction 4.2.1.1.1.1

              Their policy is to invite people like students back. Literally nowhere in their policy does it say anything about Covid being welcome back. 
              in your mind, figuratively, inviting students back = inviting Covid back.

              persisting that it is literally their policy is figuratively stupid. Like blaming unemployment them as they were allowing foreigners to come study and invest while they were the government. 3 years ago

              • In Vino

                Climaction – please re-read and correct that error-ridden nonsense. And check out that you really understand the meaning of figurative.

                Not Achieved at present, but you may re-submit.

    • xanthe 4.3

      Yeah nah !

      more transparent propaganda from Dennis.  So a system put together in an emergency was found to be unable to scale to unprecedented demand without some glitches.   so what!… lines of responsibility being rationalised, more resources being provided.

      I believe most NZ (thats not you Dennis) can recognise a media gang up when they see it. the election results will reflect that.

      • woodart 4.3.1

        maybe dennis and his fellow travellers are pi$$ed off because the economy isnt tanking like they had hoped. even herald has had to print that auck economy has hardly slowed. what a bugger!

    • Sacha 4.4

      Couldn't you say, Dennis, that Labour will campaign on fixing the quarantine problems – so they had better do that before the election. Nats and Seymour will gnash and whine. Winston will bet a buck each way. The Greens will be ignored.

      • Dennis Frank 4.4.1

        Election outcomes are a consequence of mass psychology, and if Labour campaigned on "fixing the quarantine problems" most people would see that as credible if they had actually achieved that result.

        Time will tell.  Unfair to prejudge.  But if you put someone in charge of quarantine admin, then fail to hold them accountable for consequent incompetence, it just sends the signal that anyone can get away with ignoring procedures.

        Unwise, that!  The effect on mass psychology is huge.  That's the point, really.  I gave them credit for being successful in the `team of five million' effort.  It exhibited both competence and political nous.  Now, however, I'm bemused and taken aback that they seem intent on doing the opposite.  As if going for variety rather than consistency.

        • observer 4.4.1.1

          Let's check the record of commentators' predictions, vs actual public opinion, properly measured.

          At every – yes, every – stage of the 4/3/2/1 process, there were loud voices in the media saying NZ should now be at a lower level, and there should be exceptions for A, B, C, and X, Y, Z.

          And at every – yes, every stage, public opinion said the opposite. I've seen at least 8 different surveys (TV1, TV3, Spinoff etc) which showed 80-90% support, over the 4 stages.

          Surely we must have grasped by now that an individual person's opinion is generated instantly, because no field work is required, only an open mouth. Whereas public opinion requires proper methodology, to return reliable data. So the false headlines come days or weeks before the real evidence.

          Only a fool believes the reckons before the results. Let's not be fools, eh?

          • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.1.1

            Verification of public opinion via stats takes time, and any ebbing faith in govt management of the pandemic has yet to show, so I was indicating a likelihood based on past experience of mass psychology.  Responses to perceptions of social (in)justice tend to be visceral and widespread!

            Accountability in governance is a perennial social necessity.  It's a serious concern when political leaders evade that necessity.  Makes them seem irresponsible.  Delinquent, even.  To teeter themselves at the top of that slippery slope is reckless and foolhardy.  Better to enforce accountability, so as to retain the public's faith in your political expertise – that's my advice to them.

  5. R.P Mcmurphy 5

    reading a post in FB from the Spinoff which claims the government is scrambling over the latest covid cases. this assertion is just tripe. the meedja have had a field day with covid and just because they are spinning on their own axis and threatening to disappear up their own fundamental orifice has no relation to the decisions of government. the meedja in New Zealand is riddled with infantilised noo noo heads obsessed with their own importance

    • xanthe 5.1

      The media is one sick puppy.

      • In Vino 5.1.1

        xanthe – you know that media is a plural noun?  I would agree with 'are sick puppies'.

        • xanthe 5.1.1.1

          no I did not know that ! so what is the singular? or are (is?) they like sheep linguistically as well as behaviorally ?

          • In Vino 5.1.1.1.1

            One Medium (like a fortune-teller who acts as a medium between us and the spirit-world)

            Two Media.  The news media consist of TV (a visual medium along with cartoons, posters, photos, etc) Radio (an auditory medium) and the printed medium (newspapers, magazines, etc.)

            Most people don't care now, apparently.  

            Todd Muller keeps saying,"The criteria is…"   One criterion, 2 criteria

            George W Bush famously asked, "What is our children learning?" Todd is obviously keen to take us in a similar direction..

            Sad..  (Sheep is a clever but unusual example! Like fish, deer.. unusual)

  6. There will be an equal and opposite reaction to the success.  Let us hope the pendulum swing is reaching its peak and now returning to its usual place.

    The prime minister has used her energy wisely.  Chasing those who made errors while dealing with the huge numbers of returning residents is perhaps overload at present.  Those errors have been corrected and the whys may be dealt with in a later inquiry.

    Some of these visitors/ returnees are still expecting unrealistic outcomes, in spite of  free accommodation food and medical care,  plus free transport from the airport to their 14/28 day isolation,  and they still complain to the press.  Some seeking to shorten the isolation time for a variety of reasons.  That at least has been stopped.  Also the idea of testing being optional has been corrected firmly.   Day 3 and 12 seems sensible,  28 day stay on refusal seems reasonable in the face of a tricky virus. 

    What part of possibly infected do they not grasp? To hear some saying they should be able to pick up food and drink at the airport is just amazing hubris,  or total denial of where they have come from and what they may be carrying.

    So many are returning they are being bussed to hotels in outlying towns now.  So far a city worth of people has come in,  at a cost of 81 million.

    The huge influx of returning Kiwis who have lost employment overseas is a new problem for this Government.  They will put strain on our infrastructure,  and in Auckland with a current water shortage they will need to be placed far and wide in NZ.

    The ability to divide Kiwis into us and them exists…'we' fought it and succeeded and 'they' came back to be part of that success.  In real terms people go where the work or support is.  We have to accept their right to return,  it is enshrined in law.

    However,  perhaps in these unusual times we should give those  people a card telling them what our expectations are,  and where people have a certain level of assets that they contribute to  the costs entailed.  It is human nature to value what we pay for.

    Those in the press and opposition trying to paint a picture of failure,  using every bump in this new road of coping as a cause for wild statements,  may find the pendulum swings back and cuts a swathe in their arguments.

    One of the things the opposition will point to is the huge and growing group of  returning unemployed.  I wonder if they will count the returnees as a new group,  or add them to the current group.  The only answer is to raise benefit levels to allow the system to keep functioning rather than grinding people down. Allowing people to get involved in the digital age, regenerative farming and horticulture, the arts and creative sectors, construction and trades, or anything which supports sustainable living.

    • RedBaronCV 6.1

      "Some of these visitors/ returnees are still expecting unrealistic outcomes "

      Well said -About the only request I don't find unrealistic is the one for a test. As far as I am concerned they can have one every day if they want. The press does love it's sob stories but maybe there is a benefit in  that it sorts out public attitudes.

      But if the flood is becoming so great and more airlines are returning  then it's likely to overwhelm the border isolation? Busing to outlying towns -ouch.

      Maybe we need a hard priority list and quarantine bookings. I haven't seen a number for the citizens who no longer live here and may return but large? I asked yesterday and apparently permanent residency can be hung onto even if the person no longer bothers to reside in NZ and hasn't for a considerable period. So if they are not habitually resident why do they get any priority at all?   At best they have become drive by residents  probably for welfare purposes only.  Then we appear to be allowing import of sports teams for competitions (okayyyy) plus those on work permits for the infrastructure projects – can't they and the farmers find a few people to employ out the returning citizens or horrors some of our newly unemployed and have been living here which was how the policy was sold 

      Labour don't have an enviable position in that they have to sort out a decade of lax anything goes migration from National and the luxury of doing it gradually has now gone.

      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        RedBaronCV   It's gopod to read some reasoned comment after some of the flimsy,  baiting stuff further up.

    • Janet 6.2

      With so many Kiwis ( New Zealand born citizens) returning home and maybe unable to find employment here should we not be sending the migrant workers still in NZ back to their homelands now?   We hear of  non- kiwi “permanent residents “ clamoring for their partners and children elsewhere in the world to be allowed to come “home” to NZ  but do you hear of these people thinking to join their partners instead?

      And anyone returning should not be expecting 2 weeks free food and lodgings in guarantine or anywhere !

      • Wayne 6.2.1

        It is much more likely that the work visas will not be renewed, that is the current work visa applies till it runs out. Only only in exceptional circumstances would it be renewed.

        That would be fair to the people on the work visas and fair to the returning New Zealand citizens and permanent residents.

        • RedBaronCV 6.2.1.1

          Once again a Nact created problem They handed out work visa's like crack cocaine to the Nact voters who were intent on paying no attention to employment laws and who didn't want to pay a decent wage. Now they are addicted and they are whinging at the government to keep giving them a fix. Some for FFS are being let back in for the infrastructure programmes rather than local hire.

          The visa's had the sept extension so all they expire on the same day-  but if the large number that need to go don't start going soon there will be no airline seats for them.

          We need to start now dragging the expiry dates back a bit so the march expirys get to week 1 sept, the april expiry are now week 2, etc

      • greywarshark 6.2.2

        It seems so hard to remember that we aren't talking about imported boxes of toilet paper when migrant workers are mentioned.    We wanted them, they applied, we accepted them, and can't just throw them out of the cot like disgruntled babies.    More gruntle needed Immigration, and some round-table discussion and fact checking and systems change required to be implemented in stages, being fair and practical.

        • mpledger 6.2.2.1

          *We* didn't want them – a lot of people could see that they were putting a strain on housing and infrastructure while driving down wages and employment conditions.

          Some businesses wanted them so that they could get cheap labor.

          Some political parties wanted them so that they could drive down workers conditions and pay and make themselves look good by artificially driving up GDP. 

          Like most capitalists they want to take all the profits but get out of paying the costs.

          • greywarshark 6.2.2.1.1

            Bit I am talking about the matter as the migrants would see it.    We, the country appeared to want them, our government did and let them in.   These are people who applied, were accepted, organised their lives to come here and 'we' in power, ie the government have that power to decide what to do with them.   

            What we, the public felt about that or anything, has been of no account for decades.   So I can have some idea of how unhappy the migrants are feeling.    Perhaps you are in a position to control matters that are of importance to you.

  7. peterh 7

    Bubble??? In Victoria 25 new cases yesterday, reported people who know they have covid19 continue to work and socialize

    • Fireblade 7.1

      Victoria Covid-19 cases today.

      • Fireblade 7.1.1

        The state of Victoria has introduced new Covid-19 restrictions which take effect from 11:59pm on Sunday 21 June. Below is a summary from the Premier's statement.

        * The number of visitors you can have at your home will reduce to five. Outside the home, families and friends can meet in groups up to ten.  

        * Restaurants, pubs, auction halls, community halls, libraries, museums and places of worship – maximum of 20 people in any one space until 12 July.

        * Gyms, cinemas, theatres and TABs can open – only with a maximum of 20 people.

        * Businesses need to ensure those who can work from home continue to do so, at least until 31 July.

        * If we keep seeing high case numbers each day, we will consider putting whole suburbs back into lockdown.

        https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/statement-from-the-premier-45/

  8. Anker 8
    • Re the chairman’s comments.  I absolutely shudder to think what would have happened if National were in charge.
    • they flipped flopped through out the covid process, bleeding on about the economy.
    • i remember when we first closed our border to China and the Chinese ambassador was unhappy, Bridges saying “this is very worrying”
    • Quite right, Anker. It's all hypothetical, but we have Natz past little glories to judge them by.

      They would, without doubt, have bowed to the 'economic' imperative and moved down levels quicker than the coalition did.

      They would have opened the borders by now, especially to lucrative Chinese students (they are owned by China, after all) and

      Their management of quarantine would have been abysmal – one only has to remember the psa kiwifruit problem and mbovis to realise that.

      I'm no fan of Winnie, but we should all be thankful he chose to go into coalition with Labour.

    • RedBaronCV 8.2

      Yeah – National would have been a million times worse, (most of these discussions we wouldn't even been having)- and still would be  so I don't see that as an electoral point in their favour.

      Labour at least have tried, not always succeeded, listened adjusted and do not spend their time on blame shifting although they have a number of areas where they might well say-  "National caused this ".

      The area's where I think they may be misreading public opinion and listening to only  small self interested groups who want the neo lib model are:

      – mass tourism particularly the "I can live on the roadside for free crowd"

      – a neo lib labour market underpinned overcompetition from a  lax migration polciy and minimal labour laws which large groups of employers largely ignore anyway.

      Wages in this country have barely moved in the last 30 years apart from at the top (who are grossly over rewarded) and the minimum wage shifts at the bottom. To return to that model when so many are facing job loss and reduced incomes and do not have drive by access to residence in a number of countries needs a lot more policy change than the BAU model they seem to be sticking with.

       

      • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1

        National would have been a million times worse,

        There's a real life example of just how bad things would have been if we had listened to National:

        The study’s authors concluded: “Our findings indicate that provision of misinformation in the early stages of a pandemic can have important consequences for health outcomes.”

        With National telling us that we needed to do less, to open up our borders earlier we can guarantee that more people would have died.

  9. Robert Guyton 9

    Your search function returns "nothing nothing nothing nothing"

     

    • Andre 9.1

      Wrong. My search function involves going to google, typing in my search and adding site:thestandard.org.nz. Returns plenty.

      • greywarshark 9.1.1

        edit
        That is a convoluted way to try and find entries for say myself or other commenters or subjects.     It adds extra buttons and sites to get what used to be a simple list with one request while looking at The Standard..

        For instance on Google :  Andre – 1st up June 8 2020 –  No posts found.

        15/6/20  One from you – I use link and it takes me to the top of the page and I have to scroll down page to find you.

        Next –  2 days ago @author "feijoa"  Then 7 June, 14 June, 18 June.
        This was going down the page.

        Not in date order, not useful and convenient.    Everyone hasn't all day to play around on their computer.

  10. feijoa 10

    Reading all the vitriole in the media, smashing Jacinda and Ashley, I would say Dirty Politics is back.

    Divide and rule is the oldest political trick in the book, and that is exactly what the Nats and the media are doing.

    Kia kaha everybody

    • feijoa,  you have that right The current propaganda exercise is,  "it's a debacle, disaster, stuff up,  put in any suitable adjective.  "The country needs National",  I add "like a hole in my head!!"

      They know we are doing well,  but anything to make people anxious is being said and printed. Definitely Dirty Politics.

  11. Fireblade 11

    Ministry of Health media release.

    "Today there are two new confirmed cases of COVID-19 to report in managed isolation facilities in New Zealand."

    "As with the five other cases reported in recent days, these two cases were recent arrivals from overseas and both were detected within our managed isolation facilities. Neither involves community transmission."

    https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/2-new-cases-covid-19-4

    • Andre 11.1

      In other words, except for the two women that started this whole thing, the border quarantines and managed isolation appear to have been doing the job we expect from them.

      • observer 11.1.1

        Indeed.

        Some people (i.e. opponents and moaners) complained that Ardern's press conferences before and during lockdown were like talking to children. Like a primary school teacher or talking to mentally challenged, Nat MPs said.

        And now we know why she had to do this. Here are the facts:

        Fact 1: There have been stuff-ups in the quarantine system.

        Fact 2: People are arriving at the border from other countries, with Covid-19.

        Fact 3: Fact 2 is 100% unrelated to fact 1.

        The number of cases we now have is 7. If the quarantine was perfect, without a single mistake, ever, then the number of Covid-19 cases in new Zealand would be (drum roll …)

        Seven.

        How hard is it to understand this? Too hard for some, it seems.

      • peterh 11.1.2

        In fact better than any country with 500 cases or more,but you wont here the media saying that ,only country with 500 or more infections with  no border transmissions

      • RedBaronCV 11.1.3

        Too early to say? That was a day 3 test advised today day 6. Are there not tests that return results sooner. And why not a day 1 test for the pre infected?

        I must admit I was not impressed to find that they had only picked up 2 asymptomatic spreaders on day 12 of isolation ( not quarantine). That should have been a lot earlier

        • aj 11.1.3.1

           they had only picked up 2 asymptomatic spreaders on day 12 of isolation ( not quarantine). That should have been a lot earlier

          It asks the question, where did they pick up the virus. Was it community transfer within one of our isolation hotels? or did they pick it up in, say, the 24 hrs before arrival here, very mild cases, which was not detected in earlier test (s)

           

      • Herodotus 11.1.4

        And the other groups that were granted on compassionate grounds to leave the 14days early, I recall something like 320 ( but my recollection may be out). We are so fortunate that only these 2 have been confirmed, imagine if there has/is more. So it is NOT only these 2 sisters, that the system had on the team of 5m had been found to be faulty, especially in the case of Deiderick John Grant, known as DJ Rogue funeral.

      • Graeme 11.1.5

        Even the two sisters weren’t that out of control. Someone made a compassionate judgement and allowed them to travel, in controlled circumstances, to Wellington to support their recently widowed father. OK, something went wrong and they dealt with it themselves, which was not been ideal. But they were tested in Wellington and found to be positive and went into a quarantine bubble, hopefully still able to support their Dad.

        Somehow the National Party got hold of it and made a political football out of it. I wonder what the sisters think of that.

        • Sacha 11.1.5.1

          Hadn't their father died just before they came here?

          • Andre 11.1.5.1.1

            Apparently the timeline is:

            7 June they arrive in NZ

            12 June they applied for the compassionate exemption. Later that day their parent died. As a result, their application was expedited.

            13 June they traveled to Wellie, with detour and meetup along the way.

            Not sure which parent died.

            • Bearded Git 11.1.5.1.1.1

              You missed:

              12 June-Chris Bishop (National, ex-tobacco industry stooge) lobbied vigorously for the 2 UK women to be given compassionate exemption because they were friends of a friend of his in the UK
              Q. Why has the media accepted that the two women were constituents of Bishop when they are not? (Bishop lied)

              Q. Why has Bishop not released the text of his contacts between him and his friend in the UK, between him and the 2 women and between him and the quarantine centre managers?

              Q. Did Bishop request that his friend's friends should only be released after a negative test?

              Q. Why did one of the women hide her Covid-19 symptoms?    

              • ScottGN

                Absolutely BG. No one involved in any of it is actually a constituent of Mr. Bishop. Add to that the fact that he has tried to distance himself from UK based intermediary who contacted him on behalf of the sisters, and you start to get the impression at least that there is another link that perhaps the National Party would prefer not to reveal. 

          • Anne 11.1.5.1.2

            mother.

  12. anker 12

    I wonder when there is going to be a back lash against people coming into the country who complain.

    Latest is people arriving from planes being put on a bus and finding out they were going to Rotorua complaining to the media.  Dreadful for them!  Poor things (sarc)

    Also earlier on Stuff a women with a baby, (nothing to do with Covid complaining about not getting on a plane to Taupo for her mum's birthday, because baggage got closed off before she could be processed…………….What are we suppose to do shed tears with her. Stupid that they even bother to report this stuff.

     

    • Graeme 12.1

      The bus trip to Rotorua wouldn’t have been that much longer than going into the CBD. They were lucky that they’re only in Rotorua, next option is on a charter flight and down to Queenstown or Christchurch.

      There’s probably a connection to the palaver around using the Stanford Plaza https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300038948/hotel-residents-concerned-over-reports-of-quarantined-travellers-arriving

    • Halfcrown 12.2

      Answer to anker @12
      Agree 100%

      Re open Somes Island for these people. Better still send these whinging self entitled non entities to Tiri. Not far from the airport, quick trip up the Motorway to Gulf Harbour then a pleasant trip by boat to the island.  The only problem being,  there is no accommodation there and they will have to live under canvas. These whinging poor things might discover how it is for the millions of refugees living in these type of conditions and realise how lucky they are to be able to return to NZ.

      No wait! Forget that idea, Tiri is a magnificent bird sanctuary which I would not like to see polluted, also the whinging could drown out the bird song. 

      • greywarshark 12.2.1

        Not fair to Tiri and the inhabitants there – winged!    It is a special island and the intention is to keep pests off it.

        • Halfcrown 12.2.1.1

          " It is a special island and the intention is to keep pests off it"

          Ha, ha.  I like it greysmiley.

  13. Dennis Frank 13

    Tracy Watkins being silly:  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300038914/coronavirus-the-only-way-to-restore-confidence-is-to-order-an-urgent-inquiry-into-our-border-failures

    Jacinda Ardern got all the plaudits internationally for “beating Covid”, but New Zealand’s success was never really down to her – or her Government.  It came from all of us; the team of five million.

    Both/and.  Her negation of govt agency as determinant is fatuous.  The country did what the govt required.  The success resulted from unison.

    And really, form a committee??  We've seen the failure of that approach continuously since the 1970s:

    The Government has no choice now but to urgently order an independent inquiry – one that includes sweeping powers to investigate and inspect facilities on the ground.

    We know that both National and Labour always sweep things under the carpet, and any consequent report is designed to carefully fudge all relevant issues.  Any such inquiry would waste time and space.  The govt knows who screwed up.  They just don't want to tell us.  We're meant to have blind faith they'll get it right next time.  Politicians hold the public in contempt.  Nothing new.

  14. Whispering Kate 14

    I thought it must just be me about these incoming expats etc grizzling about their accommodation etc.  It beggars belief the entitlement of some people. Surely to God they would be just so relieved to be home again and just get on with the 14 days quarantine and be thankful for small mercies.

    When are these people going to be asked to pay for their 14 days quarantine. Surely its not too much to ask these returning passengers to pay for their accommodation and be darned grateful they are home.  Nothing but a bunch of whinging selfish people. Its time Jacinda tempered her kindness with a tiny wee bit of mongrel.

    • observer 14.1

      Woods and Webb just gave a press conference on this, and they were (rightly) making no apology for putting people in quarantine, wherever and whenever needed.

      They said that over 200 people will arrive tomorrow, and over 500 on Tuesday. The numbers are increasing, and the countries of origin have very high Covid-19 cases (UK, India).

      It would be nice if the reporters at the press conference were listening, and also had a basic grasp of arithmetic.

      • In Vino 14.1.1

        Yes, but that would require independent thought. Most reporters now seem to go in with prepared questions only.  Gotcha ones…

    • anker 14.2

      No Whispering Kate, I too am really struck by people returning  who are whinging!

      Latest from the press conference was a reporter relaying the complaint that someone on the bus to Rotorua complained they weren't even given any water!!!!!!  FFS. two hour trip.   Grow up or go back.   I was sorry the military guy wasn't more old school and didn't tell them to shut up and obey orders.  He does seem competent though as does Megan

    • RedBaronCV 14.3

      For starters citizens need priority ( and ones without dual nationality first).

      So why isn't the flow being cut back by changing the permanent resident visa conditions so that there is no right of re entry unless they have met the conditions  over the last two years that they had to meet before being granted the visa. Being a taxpayer, being actually present in the country for most of the last two years and all the other signs of permanent habitation and contributing to the land of Aoteoroa. They have the passport of another country so they are not stateless. The change could be backdated to say Jan 1  2020 with  a transistion period before they have to leave again. Coming back now means they are likely welfare tourists which we can't afford and frankly I don't see local appetite for paying for this on top of quarantine.

      Despite what Megan Woods says permanent residents don't have "an absolute right of entry" because the rules could be changed and should be changed, Looking at the inflowthis is likely to get worse. We may yet have an over run health system from incomers bringing their infections and whining with them.
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300039338/returning-kiwis-may-have-to-wait-overseas-as-quarantine-hotels-fill-up

    • Shanreagh 14.4

      Just imagine how much they will be moaning if they decide not to allow a test for Covid-19 and have to wait a month instead of 2 weeks to be released.  

      • In Vino 14.4.1

        Actually a great idea, Shanreagh.  Our Hospitality industry's problem would be solved,  and the whingers would become a source of income for our beleaguered economy.

  15. Whispering Kate 15

    And yes I have family overseas and we have let them know that if and when they decide to return home they had better observe our quarantine laws or there will be hell to pay at our place.

  16. Dennis Frank 16

    Trump's campaign already had speed wobbles.  Now it seems to have hit the skids:  https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/21/politics/trump-campaign-trail-coronavirus/index.html

    The President received a report that only about 25 people were assembled in the overflow space the campaign had reserved for a crowd Trump claimed five days earlier would top 40,000.

    Though Trump formally launched his campaign one year ago in Orlando, he started telling people in recent weeks that the Tulsa event was the "real launch." He reasoned that his abysmal poll numbers were only because of the coronavirus lockdowns …

    Once viewed inside the White House and Trump's campaign as a reset button for a presidency beset by crises and self-inflicted wounds, Saturday evening's campaign rally in Tulsa instead became plagued with pitfalls, a disappointing microcosm of the blindspots, denial and wishful thinking that have come to guide the President as he enters one of the most precarious moments of his first term.

  17. Dennis Frank 17

    I googled Biden's campaign slogan out of curiosity but got no revelation.  Some good suggestions though:

    A Return to Slightly Less Bad

    Took One Idea from Bernie, Stop Complaining

    Not Racist Recently

    Actually, playing the redemption card could work with all them christians in the USA:

    Hasn't Voted for the Iraq War In Over 15 years!

    Can't go wrong with being traditional, it always works:

    Yet Another Old White Rich Male

    But my favourite so far has to be:

    Putting the `er' back in America    😆

  18. McFlock 18

    I'm intrigued that they're bussing people to the regions straight from the airport. I wonder what the benefits are over a two-stage system, transferring people to the regions after a couple of weeks, and replacing their berths in the Auckland hotels with new arrivals?

    That way the people most likely to be discovered to have it are in closer proximity to the quarantine residences and a tertiary hospital set up for covid treatment.

    • Andre 18.1

      After a couple of weeks their isolation should be finished and they're let loose to do as they please.

      Maybe they've shifted to having all the arrival from a specific day or two go to the same hotel. To minimise the possibility of a fresh arrival infecting someone that's just about to leave.

      • bwaghorn 18.1.1

        It's more the trickle has become a flood,  just on the news now the said there is 700 people coming in over the next 2 days . 

        Time to start charging nzs fair weather's kiwis  for their isolation,it will slow the buggers down . 

        • Pat 18.1.1.1

          fair weather kiwis?…how do you know?

          • observer 18.1.1.1.1

            It's unfair to call them that, obviously. They may have all kinds of personal circumstances we don't know about. And we can have sympathy, to a degree.

            But some of them need to start reading the room, before complaining to the media. People who have lost jobs and businesses and loved ones in NZ lockdown are not going to be a very receptive audience to arrivals complaining about their hotels. 

            • Pat 18.1.1.1.1.1

              yes some appear to be somewhat entitled however there are hundreds (or thousands over time) who may wish to return home not to mention the obligations and rights under international law…..we dont know (and nor do we need to) the circumstances that necessitated their returns ….and charging for an enforced quarantine is the sort of thing Id expect from those that espouse the 'efficiency of market forces'….no thanks

            • Anne 18.1.1.1.1.2

               People who have lost jobs and businesses and loved ones in NZ lockdown are not going to be a very receptive audience to arrivals complaining about their hotels. 

              I suspect that the majority of the population are already not receptive to these whinging arrivals. Indeed it smacks to some degree of some of them using the situation to indulge in their 15 minutes of fame. 

              The problem with this latest batch being sent to Rotorua is that a bunch of rich, entitled permanent residents at the Stamford Hotel are kicking up blue murder which has prompted the new military chief to temporarily bypass the place until a few things are sorted. 

              With 700 due to arrive within the next 48 odd hrs they're probably running out of suitable places to put them.

            • RedBaronCV 18.1.1.1.1.3

              We could get that catering firm that Nact though was good enough for the hospitals to feed them. That should increase the whinging to a jet engine sized roar.

  19. joe90 19

    Bolton's book has been posted online.

    • The Al1en 19.1

      Nice, but you may want to give thought as to what Prentice will do when he finds illegal downloads published on this site.

    • Morrissey 19.2

      Looks like the sane and rational Bolton is part of "The Resistance" now, along with other caring and thoughtful individuals like David Frum, Karl Rove, and William Kristol. surprise

       

  20. Foreign waka 20

    Given the data and increasing numbers of corona virus infected people recorded,  I believe we should hold all flights landing from overseas until the logistics of the arrangements are air tight. There is no way that it is acceptable to invite the virus into the county. Yes, people might be p… off. But crunch the numbers and compare a few hundred people vs 5 million. If we get another 20 or so corona positive we are on the way to be shut down again. A nightmare in the making. 

     

    • observer 20.1

      You say "another 20 or so", but you know the number in the community is currently zero, right? So saying "another" is misleading, and linking it to lockdown is false.

    • Halfcrown 20.2

      I agree with that Foreign 200%

  21. observer 21

    Nat MPs Kaye and Woodhouse on the news with residents of central Auckland hotel, complaining about returning Kiwis being quarantined there.

    That is the same Kaye and Woodhouse who want to bring in thousands of foreign students for the second semester (= now) and put them in quarantine in … um, central Auckland hotels.

    Sure, Nats are gonna Nat, but will any reporter ever be awake to ask the obvious questions?

    • aj 21.2

      Observer 20.1 and 21

      +100

      • aj 21.2.1

        You say "another 20 or so", but you know the number in the community is currently zero, right? So saying "another" is misleading, and linking it to lockdown is false.

        Professor Michael Baker made a very important point this morning, RNZ. He said that as long as there is no community transmission, it means the disease is still eliminated from New Zealand.

        Cases may be arriving and showing up while people are in isolation, and it's only a quirk of the way international stats are collected that mean they are added to the New Zealand total. Long may it last – and it will be a massive fight to keep it that way. 

        Another point about 'opening the borders' and forming 'bigger bubbles'. I think the events recently in Victoria Australia show that they have a big problem on their hands at the moment and I can't see New Zealand allowing free travel between other states and New Zealand. I suspect the usual suspects promoting opening up won't be quite so loud in the coming few weeks.

  22. joe90 22

    He's not holding anything back.

  23. McFlock 23

    Interesting and thought-provoking review of a book on "white fragility".

    Something to mull over.

  24. McFlock 24

    on a funnier note, apparently the nats have released a meme of a 17 June speech where "Todd Muller DESTROYS Labour".

    I mean, it's not a terrible speech, but they went with "amazing crescendo music library hits #57" as the background music. On a loop. The music reaches a passionate high about three times at random points during the speech (with random shots of a largely empty and bored-looking House), and finishes at roughly the time he stops talking.

    I laughed quite a bit. The juxtaposition is quite something.

    • mac1 24.1

      Down our way we have an annual meteorological event in November called the Dr Muller Frost. Commemorating a venerated doctor who was always late to arrive for a baby's delivery, it names after him a late frost that threatens grape vines, tomatoes and potatoes. You're pretty safe from a Dr Muller frost after Labour Day though! 😉

    • RedBaronCV 24.2

      Overseas these types videos are part of right wing campaigns – designed to hook in people who think they are funny then turning them into a voter. think Boris used them in the UK – along with ssoccer games sharing etc that grduaally turn political. The left needs to counter these.

      • Sacha 24.2.1

        The left needs to counter these.

        Parties do not beat those by responding to them.

      • McFlock 24.2.2

        Really? Odd tactic, to be so laughably terrible that they gain votes.

        Just looked cheap to me, and the speech wasn't any better.

  25. sumsuch 25

    Can anyone explain to me why Kiwiblog gets 400 comments regularly and the blogs of the Left, or the heart of NZ, get a 100 odd? Lazy reactive know-nothingness beats memory I think. Thankfully, no one takes their uncles seriously beyond that circle. Sadly, no one much follows the good auld tradition of democratic politics.

    • aj 25.1

      Angry right wingers wave hands and flap gums a lot more than the left of politics. It's hard work getting all the BS and talking points out. Might also explain why the right have won a lot of battles around the world in recent decades

  26. sumsuch 26

    We had current events in Primary. That Dutch train held up by terrorists. Trees … forests. 

    What really matters. 

    I think climate change is everything. You know, our grandchildren …children … and old age! Evidence. Scuffing about with mindless day to day politics is beneath us and irrelevant. Modern comfort has no future. Though as a history bloke I enjoy the 'footnotery' of you lot.

  27. Eco Maori 27

    Kia Ora 

    Newshub. 

    That's is cool testing people for the virus on arrival.

    No the tree planting after Cyclone bolar was massive. The credit for native trees planting could be good. 

    Ka kite Ano. 

  28. Eco Maori 28

    Kia Ora 

    Te Ao Maori News. 

    I think it's sad the way they sacked the Warriors Coach when they have other issues to sort. 

    That's awesome Whakatohea Iwi getting there Waitangi settlement sorted finally. 

    Ka kite Ano. 

     

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