Open mike 21/11/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 21st, 2015 - 172 comments
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172 comments on “Open mike 21/11/2015”

  1. Ad 1

    Hot cup of morning ideological coffee, from Bernie Sanders’ speech yesterday on what democratic socialism means for him:

    “In that remarkable speech this is what Roosevelt said, and I quote: ‘We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. Necessitous men are not free men.’ In other words, real freedom must include economic security. That was Roosevelt’s vision 70 years ago. It is my vision today. It is a vision that we have not yet achieved. It is time we did…The right to a decent job at decent pay, the right to adequate food, clothing, and time off from work, the right for every business, large and small, to function in an atmosphere free from unfair competition and domination by monopolies. The right of all Americans to have a decent home and decent health care. What Roosevelt was stating in 1944, what Martin Luther King, Jr. stated in similar terms 20 years later and what I believe today, is that true freedom does not occur without economic security.”

    Full text here:
    http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

    • Murray Simmonds 1.1

      Yep, Ad, Thanks for the interesting quote. The Roosevelts were definitely on the right track. (Eleanor included – she was instrumental in setting up the UN Decl of Human rights, i think).

      Its a pity America lost sight of that vision. Interesting to see the comments on the role of corporations even way back then. A major difference between then and now is that the corporate lobby groups have become even more entrenched with respect to their political influence and power. Bernie Sanders will be in for a hard ride, alas.

      • Naturesong 1.1.1

        FDR 1936 campaign speech in Madison Square Garden:

        For nearly four years you have had an Administration which instead of twirling its thumbs has rolled up its sleeves. We will keep our sleeves rolled up.

        We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

        They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

        Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.

        I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

          worth remembering that the only feason FDR was any good was because of massive riots, demonstrations and sit down protests which forced him to confrobt the capitalist class and tell them that if they didn’t conceede a few things to workers and citizens, they might end up losing it all.

          TLDR…FDR saved capitalism.

          • Ad 1.1.1.1.1

            OK that’s just depressing.

            The only riots started in Auckland these days are when wrinkly white guys start yelling about Unitary Plan provisions and rates increases. Mention either density, heritage features, or your Council bill going up more than 5%, and it’s A Fistful of Dollars and rotating handbag Hail Mary’s at the Howick Bowling Club.

  2. The Chairman 2

    Latest 3 News Reid Research poll – 52 percent don’t support the TPPA.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/kiwis-still-to-be-convinced-on-tpp-2015112017#axzz3rxU8w74P

    • The Chairman 2.1

      Almost a quarter (23%) of National supporters say they don’t want the agreement.

      73% of Labour supporters are against it.

      Yet, where do Labour stand?

      • Paul 2.1.1

        No one from Labour came to TPPA marches last week.
        Pathetic.
        I shall help campaign to remove them on the TPPA in electorates where they can be beaten by the Greens or New Zealand First.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1

          Sue Moroney spoke at the start of the Hamilton march….

          Greens out in force.

          Only saw one Union prominent….the staunch Meatworkers.

          • Paul 2.1.1.1.1

            Only Green MPs in Auckland.
            Wonder who will turn up for Climate March.
            Clearly not Bill English, who thinks climate change is ‘speculative.’
            Pity he doesn’t listen to his spiritual leader, the Pope.

            • Karen 2.1.1.1.1.1

              3 Labour MPs at the Auckland Hikoi for Homes today – Jenni Salesa, Phil Twyford and Jacinda Adern did the whole 3 hours in spite of heavy rain at times. Jan Logie and Marama Davidson were there from the Greens. I saw lots of positive interaction between Greens and Labour supporters.

              Nobody from NZF turned up. Says it all really.

        • The Chairman 2.1.1.2

          Clearly, there are votes to be gained. Labour (with their questionable positioning) are wasting this opportunity.

          The latest headline I seen about Little had him shutting down the notion of a state service for Jonah.

          • Gabby 2.1.1.2.1

            It was a kind of dumb hysterical notion.

            • The Chairman 2.1.1.2.1.1

              This poll indicates it was a popular notion. 74% in support.

              http://www.radiolive.co.nz/DUNCAN-GARNER-POLL-Should-Jonah-Lomu-get-a-state-funeral/tabid/131/articleID/108381/Default.aspx

              Nevertheless, there are far more vital issues the Leader of the opposition should be commenting on.

              • alwyn

                I find it very hard to understand what Little thought he was up to.
                He didn’t have to say anything and he shouldn’t have.
                Anyone like to estimate what the Labour Party supporters in South Auckland might think about Little? I don’t know the area but I would have thought the Pacific Island population might just be a little peeved.

                • The Chairman

                  Going off the poll above, Little and his consultants seem to be on the wrong side of public opinion in this regard.

                • Sacha

                  “He didn’t have to say anything and he shouldn’t have.”

                  Requires both nous and discipline.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Requires both nous and discipline.

                    And not just of Little, but also of the cadre of paid Labour Party strategists who seem demonstrably shit at their job.

              • Gabby

                Well okay, a dumb mass hysterical notion. Honestly, people need to get a grip.

                • The Chairman

                  Ha, I wouldn’t recommend Little conveying that sentiment (people need to get a grip).

                • Draco T Bastard

                  +1

                • Anne

                  @ Gabby.
                  a dumb mass hysterical notion.

                  You can say that again. Mass hysteria of the worst kind. Reminds me a bit of the Princess Diana death manic behaviour. I have no doubt Jonah Lomu was a decent bloke and a great footballer but a state funeral? Jesus the world’s going nuts.

                  I’m going to upset a few people with the following but who cares:

                  Jonah Lomu is of Tongan extraction. Among the poorest families in NZ are Tongan families and what did Lomu do? He came out publicly supporting John Key as prime minister even though his government has made the living conditions of many of his own kinsmen/women a damm sight worse than they were 8 years ago.

                  • Reddelusion

                    pathetic Anne politicising some ones death

                    Lomu had just as much right to form his own views in life as we all do.

                    Your comment is bordering on racist

                    • Anne

                      I was born in Tonga. No, my parents were not Tongan but I felt a strong bond with them.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      A few people seems to politicising his death but mostly it seems to be the RWNJs as they look for a poll bounce from his death.

                    • greywarshark

                      Riddillusion
                      You’re the one politicising Jonah and this discussion about him by making your cheap shots. They don’t come much cheaper than the brand you adopt.

                      Personally I think that Andrew Little should have been supportive of a state funeral. Jonah was a good guy apparently, made a success of himself, lived a short life that many sportspeople now seem to, but in his time carved out an amazing place for himself in people’s minds and hearts. He was a role model for tryers who are willing to work on their skills and for PI people who are pleased to see someone get out from the factory and cleaning jobs.

                      He also appealed to the working man. There were a lot of guys who liked Shane Jones for being a mans man and Jonah was someone they held in high regard.

                  • tinfoilhat

                    You really are a nasty piece of work Anne.

                  • The Fairy Godmother

                    You have some good points there Anne. The voice of reason, like the little boy who was brave enough to point out the emperor had no clothes when everyone else was bowing and scraping because they didn’t want to stand out. Yes he was a good rugby player. Yes he had a right to his politics but I think he is very like John Key in that he had advantages that enabled him to get to where he did and he was happy to support an ideology which pulled the ladder up for those who came after.

              • Karen

                If you looked at the Stuff poll 65% were opposed. Neither are valid polls however.

                I agree with Little. Ed Hillary got a state funeral because of what he did after he climbed Everest. Giving Lomu a state funeral for being a very good at rugby is a stupid idea that Little rightly dismissed .

                • gsays

                  hi anne and karen, i agree about no state funeral for a mere good rugby player, however, jonah was a great all black in a hugely transformative time in rugby and world politics.

                  he was a big influence in the change to professional rugby, both how the game was played on the field, and on the business side.

                  jonah was so often the last player to leave the field, signing for children.

                  he was generous with his time with charities and humble to the bone.

                  i say this not to change your minds but to perhaps shed a little light as to how others view a good father, great all black, hero to many, and a decent man.

                  • Karen

                    There are many, many people who have achieved very well in sport and gone on to do far more charity work than Lomu ever did, and I have no idea of what you mean by his being a great All Black in a transformative time in “world politics.” Hardly any countries play rugby – it isn’t even a world sport let alone having any influence on world politics.

                    No denying Lomu was a great All Black, and for that he received a lot of kudos in his life time.

                    He was also generally thought to be a decent human being. That is not enough to warrant a state funeral. If it were we would be having them every week, but they are actually very rare.

                    • Anne

                      Thank-you Karen.

                      No denying Lomu was a great All Black, and for that he received a lot of kudos in his life time.

                      Precisely, and there’s no denying he was a decent bloke too if, in my view, a little lacking in insight. But to counter that, he did have more than his fair share of health issues.

                      There are plenty pf people who would qualify for the same sort of kudos but they would not expect a “state funeral”. Indeed I doubt Jonah Lomu envisaged such a farewell. State funerals are confined to the truly greatest in our land. Sir Edmond Hillary was a truly great man.

                      As for you tinfoilhat. I suggest you reflect on your occasional faulty perceptions and your [sometime] attitude.

                    • gsays

                      world politics refers to sth africa/mandela and also the mega bucks .01% ‘owning’ a sport globally. murdoch etc.

                    • tinfoilhat

                      @ Anne, on reflection you are a sanctimonious nasty piece of work.

                  • Pat

                    a question…..if there was to be only one state funeral in your lifetime would that be for Jonah Lomu?

                  • Pat

                    not rationed per se, but in my experience one would perhaps expect one in their lifetime…as outstanding as Jonah Lomu was, a comparable case could be made for many in a range of endeavors and I suspect we may end up having State funerals on a monthly roster.

                    • gsays

                      must admit, this started a slightly grim conversation here.
                      as to who is living, we would honour in this way.
                      i feel it wise not to speculate.

                • The Chairman

                  @ Karen.

                  Jonah Lomu went beyond merely playing rugby. He was involved in charity work and became an ambassador for the game and in effect country.

                  Nevertheless, whether or not Lomu secured a state service is totally out of Littles hands. He’s not the PM, thus has no say on the matter. Therefore, why comment on it?

                  As leader of the opposition, Little has far more pressing matters to focus on rather than risk upsetting a number of voters commenting on a hypothetical.

                  I for one would rather know if Labour plan to back their running down of Paula with an announcement that they will reverse what Little termed her nasty policy?

        • weka 2.1.1.3

          “I shall help campaign to remove them on the TPPA in electorates where they can be beaten by the Greens or New Zealand First.”

          What’s the strategy there Paul? Because as far as I can tell the only change of govt we will get will be a Labour-led one. And if NZF’s vote peaks, then that lessens the chances of a change. Even if NZF choose to support Labour, it’s going to create problems for any left-wing coalition because of Peters’ animosity towards the GP. We might end up with a centrist government that gives a few sops to Peters but basically doesn’t support the kinds of changes I assume you want.

          • The Chairman 2.1.1.3.1

            It seems Labour’s positioning would be the largest hurdle in a Greens, NZ First and Labour coalition.

            • Naturesong 2.1.1.3.1.1

              NZF is the largest hurdle.

              Winston has always sought to marginalise the Greens for what appears to be a few of reasons;
              – Personal dislike of some Green MP’s
              – The similarity of policy in some areas, specifically where the Greens wish to strengthen and increase the diversity of NZ manufacturing and small local businesses (NZF does not want to share the votes those policies bring).
              – NZF is the go-to party for disillusioned National voters. Pretty sure rhetoric in support of the Greens will drive some (most?) of these back to National.

              So, once Winston is gone, will NZF retain the same level of support?
              And would Ron Mark be keen to work with the Greens?
              The answer to both of these is likely to be no.

              But, to address Labours problem; to govern it requires the support of two political parties. One of whom wants power, and one that wants change.
              By marginalising the Greens Labour sets itself up for a situation where, should it get an opportunity to form a government with NZF and the Greens, the membership of the Green Party might just tell Labour to go fuck themselves and work in opposition while continuing to build the grassroots support that will eventually eat Labours lunch.

              • The Chairman

                The Greens and NZ First are more left than Labour in a number of areas, thus Labour will be the hurdle when it comes to getting left policy through in such a coalition.

                • I agree.

                  My point is that getting the actual coalition together will be far, far more difficult.
                  Primarily due to NZF politics, and secondarily due to Labours response to how NZF positions itself.

                  • The Chairman

                    The more Labour head down the centrist path and align with National, the more they distance themselves from their potential coalition partners.

                    The more the public perceive this distancing the more they struggle to see such a coalition working (as National depicted so well in their last general election campaign).

                    Getting voter support, thus the numbers required, heavily relies on the three convincing voters they can work together. Labour chasing the centre undermines that.

                    • Labour chasing this mythical “centre” is an explicitly weak strategy which most people I think recognise on one level or another.

                      It’s an admission that the policies that National follow are the correct ones. Labour would just implement them in a kinder gentler way*.
                      I.e. We stand for our bums on the govt benches instead of those guys.

                      * I think that there is a constituency for this among some who wield large amounts of capital.
                      Though not because Labour are kinder, but because they possesses more competent technocrats than National does.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Labour endorses the fundamental economic, social and security frameworks that National endorses, which leads to general agreement on broad policy between the two large parties.

                      Implementation of that policy tends to differ but not just because Labour has “more competent” technocrats (a good observation on your part). But because National is more willing to push through ‘bad policy’ if it benefits their core constituency.

                      In contrast Labour won’t do fuck all to bend policy to benefit their self professed core constituency (working class/precariat) if their technocrats advise against it.

                      The facts are that on matters of pure policy National and Labour should go into coalition together.

                      The only reason they do not is because of long held historical and cultural animosity between the two parties.

                      But its not because of fundamental policy differences.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ Naturesong

                      “It’s an admission that the policies that National follow are the correct ones”

                      Indeed. Their buckling on the TPP is an example of this. Telling voters it passes 4 of their bottom lines gives an impression the deal isn’t that bad. Effectively implying National were right in signing up.

        • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.1.1.4

          I saw two Labour flags at Auckland march.

        • Chooky 2.1.1.5

          @ Paul @ 2.1.1…re “No one from Labour came to TPPA marches last week”….how do you know this Paul?

          …my sister went to the TPPA marches and she ALWAYS votes Labour….just because you dont walk under a banner or wear a t-shirt saying who you vote for doesnt mean you dont vote Labour

          …we had a number of speakers and from unions and I would say they would be Labour voters … certainly not Green because there were so many NZ flags flying all around them and they spoke under NZ flag banners

          (btw it is no one’s business who you vote for unless you choose to tell them who you vote for …and you may not know yourself until polling day)

          ..I really dislike the way the Greens are trying to organise and manoeuvre people into marching with them as a group…eg. “Will you be marching with us on Climate Change Day….so and so? ( not bloody likely)

          ..they are not fooling anyone in their desperate grab for votes and Green Party members…least of all the young

          … infantile!…reminds me of school prefects and peer group pressure …it should be called the the Green Infant School Party…mind you walk in crocodile lines children and stick with your teachers…while we go on this jolly hockey sticks march for climate change….there’s good little kiddies ( and dont forget to bring your Green badges)

      • Paul 2.1.2

        Just shows you how unrepresentative the media is of popular opinion.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2.1

          The MSM isn’t there to represent popular opinion but the opinions of the rich and powerful.

    • Paul 2.2

      Key normally listens to focus groups and polls.
      However, his core responsibility is to international finance and to get this corporate deal over the line.
      He’ll ignore the numbers and distract people to other issues.

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3

    Special Stuff Report on Child Homicide in New Zealand

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/73717177/Special-investigation-New-Zealand-s-shameful-record-of-child-abuse

    So far this year, thirteen children have been murdered.

    Poverty and inequality, mental illness…

    Violent men, drugs, absurdly cheap and ridiculously available alcohol.

    • The Chairman 3.1

      The most deprived parts of New Zealand are overwhelmingly represented in the country’s child homicide statistics.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/74019083/is-there-a-link-between-poverty-and-child-homicide-in-new-zealand

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        I think it is simplistic to ascribe child abuse and murder to poverty.

        Some yes, but I believe that in many cases the primary caregiver simply doesn’t give enough of a shit.

        The child is a burden and a nuisance…

        http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/73755086/fathers-pleas-for-his-babys-life-fell-on-death-ears

        and the authorities don’t listen when others wave big red flags…

        The repeal of section 59 achieved nothing for these children did it?

        • Adele 3.1.1.1

          Kia ora, Rosemary

          Sec. 59 was never going to impact on the type of behaviours that kill or violently abuse children. Did we really think that it would? Seriously?

        • The Chairman 3.1.1.2

          I wasn’t totally ascribing child abuse and murder to poverty. Merely highlighting the compelling result of the analysis.

          And from that, it’s clear poverty plays a large role.

          Perhaps addressing that would have had more effect than the removal of section 59?

        • miravox 3.1.1.3

          Simplistic?

          ” primary caregiver simply doesn’t give enough of a shit.”

          Or they don’t know how to give a shit in a constructive way – for example shaken baby syndrome is not malice, it’s desperation. Even druggies understand desperation, but may not know how to deal with it.

          Moreover, poverty stricken, and/or desperate parents (for whatever reason – lack of support, money, education, exposure to babies, time, tiredness) are some of the hardest to reach parents out there.

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.3.1

            The montage of photos in the article I linked to…click on each photo and it gives the name of the child and the circumstances of their death and the name of the killer(s). In most cases.

            Read ALL of them. Google the names and read articles from the archives about these children and their sad lives. Get a bit of detail, context.

            Then let us know how many of these children’s deaths were due solely to poverty and deprivation, social isolation….

            Its too easy to blame poverty.

            We should have looked at drug and alcohol use, mental illness, NZ’s adulation of the “hard man” culture.,. the ingrained violence.

            And shitty government departments who are incompetent, biased, politically and ideologically constipated….and just don’t bloody well listen.

            • miravox 3.1.1.3.1.1

              Yes, we should look at all that. That is not simplistic.

              “The child is a burden and a nuisance…”

              That is not simplistic?

              There are not many people out there, imo, who have kids with the desire to get rid of them – that is not to say it doesn’t happen, it;s just not more likely in a country like NZ, than say, Australia, imo.

              There are many more parents that simply don’t realise what having a child entails, if support is not provided (whether that is wider family, or other health or social services).

              Yes, I agree with what you said about context. But what is that context? As for poverty – Do you not think it is more difficult to access support when poor? Do you not think it is much harder for social service to provide support to financially deprived people?

              Having said that I do believe parent socially disconnected from an extended family are more likely to be parents who don’t have the first clue about being parents do really bad stuff. So poor treatment of children is much greater than poverty alone. My issue was your accusation that poverty as a cause of child abuse was simplistic when you then went on to assume that ‘not giving enough of a shit’ was the cause.

              So which parents don’t have a clue (or give a shit)? Which ones will have someone to rally around when things turn to custard? Which ones are more likely to take up with partners who don’t give a shit/don’t have a clue about kids – in your opinion?

              “We should have looked at drug and alcohol use, mental illness, NZ’s adulation of the “hard man” culture.,. the ingrained violence.

              And shitty government departments who are incompetent, biased, politically and ideologically constipated….and just don’t bloody well listen.” yes, rather than saying primary caregivers just don’t give enough of a shit.

              • greywarshark

                One of the problems for poorly supported parents is the 24/7 aspect of it. Never having time for oneself, hardly able to go to the toilet because of some feeding or waking or demand problem. Having to take the child everywhere you go so no freedom any more to just be yourself, be an individual, not be under the duty of care to the vulnerable and demanding child.

                A child who vomits, cries, won’t sleep, so intruding into the time the parent needs to rest and restore themself. Tiredness, disappointment, feelings of failure to satisfy the needs of the child, despair, anger, red rage….

                If it is one parent only, or a parent with an irresponsible, immature partner, or a parent forced to give access to somebody who doesn’t want to take on a father/mother role and resents it and is unreliable, unstable who is inconsistent, erratic, even capricious (says they will be available and then is not, promises and doesn’t fulfil, promises the child attention then doesn’t turn up, turns up at a different, not scheduled time and wants immediate access, turns up drunk), then it can be a burden beyond bearing at times.

                People’s opinions about what should be, are often far away from the reality that parents without good and happy support face and I would like to see parents given far more opportunity to gain support on request, and be assured they were well-thought of members of the community. Which is not how parents on benefits are presently thought of. Hate is more the correct description, discriminated in general, discounted as people, and derided and disparaged particularly by men who know they are never likely to be in that status.

                • miravox

                  +1 A recipe for disaster. So many people/organisations watch it unfolding like a slow motion car crash.

            • The Chairman 3.1.1.3.1.2

              The Stuff analysis of 187 victims of child homicide since 1992 found that the majority of victims (73.5%) were from suburbs with a Social Deprivation Index score of 6 or greater.

              It’s not that it’s too easy to blame poverty, it’s more of a case that poverty clearly sticks out.

    • Reddelusion 3.2

      and on the other side of coin millions have not been murdered. the number is so small could you really make a difference by addressing any of the above, considering these issues will always be with us to some degree, no matter what you do. Changing government may make you feel better but really would much change, answer, no

  4. The Chairman 4

    Residents heard a female voice screaming for help during the night, yet did nothing?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74227899/screams-for-help-heard-before-car-crash-in-hamilton

    Thoughts?

    • Sabine 4.1

      standard reaction. Why bother your beautiful mind when you can make up just so many reasons to not go outside and check. But at least they could have called the Blueberry Muffin Brigade.

      Mind, the time I called them for a young intoxicated female who appeared to be Downs Syndrom I got nothing.
      She was out on the streets, drunk as but very lovely soft demeanor and quite pretty, begging and generally being a bit of a nuisance. But my worry was more a. who got her that pissed, b. and anyone could just easily lure her in the car and then there was a good chance of sexual assault given.
      So I call the Popo around 1pm in the afternoon, I also called her ‘caretaker’ at the institution where she lived (she gave me the number). The ‘caretaker’ could not come and pick her up because she was with a different ‘client’ and Popo just said we gonna send someone.
      I told her to sit in front of my shop and not move, stay and I was pleased that she did. The police and the ‘caretaker’ arrived at the same time, almost 4 hours later.

      Anyone could have lured that girl into a car with the help of a cute puppy or some more booze, what would have happened to her in that case, i don’t even want to contemplate.

      We are creating a very nasty, very fearful, and very lonely society.

      • The Chairman 4.1.1

        The new, uncaring face of NZ?

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.1.1

          “The new, uncaring face of NZ?”

          No, failure (again) of the Misery Of Health Contracted Service Providers who are paid BIG$$$ to provide care and support.

          And a certain level of ideological claptrap that encourages people with disabilities to live “normal, everyday lives”, which includes (in the happy clappy documentation) the right to take risks.

          • The Chairman 4.1.1.1.1

            I was referring to the fact that no one called the police after hearing a young woman call out for help.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2

          No, it’s that people really don’t know what to do in those situations. That combined with the teachings that we should just mind our own business leaves people incapable of acting.

          • The Chairman 4.1.1.2.1

            It’s not that difficult.

            When one hears someone calling out for help, either investigate it or call for assistance. It may actually save a life.

            However, in saying that, I also largely agree society has been condition to the ways of individualism.

            • greywarshark 4.1.1.2.1.1

              If you call the police the first thing you have to supply is your own name and address, so it becomes personal. Then you will be questioned to give as much information as possible, questioned again later, and perhaps be called to give evidence. You might not want to be identified as an informant to the police in some areas.

              You may have media calling you for voice quotes. I was phoned asking if I was related to someone with the same surname who I had never heard of. Later I checked on google and it was a little girl who had been injured by a caregiver. This type of trawling would be a put-off.
              edited

    • Paul 4.2

      That’s what happens when an ideology like neo-liberalism takes over a country for 31 years.

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1

        “That’s what happens when an ideology like neo-liberalism takes over a country for 31 years.”

        The neo-lib bit …yes. They cut their teeth on the disabled…contracting out the “too hard” care and support structures to contracted providers…who a quick google of “disability abuse and neglect…NZ” will show have done a pretty shit job. “Reforms” have seen not more “choice”,(another common word in their Happy clappy docs) but less.. as the smaller hometown providers have been sucked out of existence by the Big (some multi national) companies.

        The ideology bit….no area is as fraught and sensitive as disability politics.

        Years and years of genocide, imprisonment, institutionalisation, abuse, neglect, murder, marginalisation, and every other oppression society can inflict on a minority group has seen some discussions on how best to care for and support vulnerable and at risk people disintegrate into ideological pissing contests.

        This sounds harsh…but it does really seem that way. Add in large amounts of government money for ‘charities’, token seats around the table with ministers and bureaucrats discussing “strategies” and “plans”, a divide and rule culture from government…wedge politics….the waving around of the UNCRPD when it suits….sad head -shaking here…’outcomes’ are not much better.

        Parents are encouraged to ‘allow’ their adult children with learning disabilities to have more freedom and take risks…like ‘ordinary’ people. Great…as this gives the Contracted Service Providers an ‘out’ when a vulnerable person in their care comes to grief.

        This is a very complicated area.

        (But good on you Sabine for making contact with this young woman and keeping her safe and giving a shit.)

      • Reddelusion 4.2.2

        I would argue hiding of domestic violence, acceptance of violence was far more prevalent in the past than it is today

    • Rosie 4.3

      Chairman. In November 2013 a woman in our neighbourhood was heard screaming at 1pm one morning. Before that residents heard glass smashing, which was the ranch slider door being smashed through for the attacker to gain entrance to her house.

      It was quite a ways from our house so we didn’t hear her otherwise we would have acted immediately.

      No one did though.

      Sarwen Lata Singh was being stabbed to death by her ex husband who she had a protection order against. She lived in area of infill housing so there were plenty of neighbours around who could have called 111. The call to 111 came from her, as she was dying and after he had left. It was too late though. She had died by the time they got there only 10 minutes later.

      I will never forgive those residents for not doing anything. We don’t know, but perhaps her life could have been saved had someone intervened. I have no idea how they can live themselves for their lack of action.

      It just sickens me to the core.

      • The Chairman 4.3.1

        That’s extremely sad, and disappointing.

        The alleged sexual assault in the case I highlighted may have also been averted if only somebody (other than the alleged victim) called the police when they first heard the call for help.

        I wonder how those residents feel now knowing what took place?

        • Rosie 4.3.1.1

          Yes, I read through that article and thats what brought back what happened in our neighbourhood. I’m really pissed off at those Hamilton residents who did nothing. I’m pissed off at their lame rationale hearing the screaming and calls for help and deliberately choosing not to help. Some were too scared but why didn’t they call the Police?

          and b)pissed off at them not thinking through the consequences of their non action.

  5. Karen 5

    Two articles I thought Standardistas may be interested in reading over the weekend:

    One by the excellent Susan St. John about welfare reform was actually posted mid week but I missed and some others may have also.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/11/18/national-does-not-understand-what-a-work-incentive-requires/

    The other is an article by Giovanni Tiso and Hilary Stace about special needs and education in NZ.

    http://ips.ac.nz/publications/files/9b740870cdf.pdf

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.1

      @Karen. Both excellent articles which were read and appreciated by some of us.

      Thank you for trying to bring them to wider attention.

      😉

  6. Reddelusion 6

    Sorry Karen I have more pressing priorities watching my lawn grow and the paint dry

    • Gangnam Style 6.1

      No one could accuse you as an intellectual heavy lifter could they Red.

    • Bearded git 6.2

      Is that what passes for intelligent debate on the Right?

      • Kiwiri 6.2.1

        ‘They’ no longer care. Except for their lawns and painted surfaces.

        • Naturesong 6.2.1.1

          Not so sure about the lawns.

          A number of folks I know who lean right are all for concreting everything so as to avoid having to mow the lawn (much to the embarrassment of their wives and children who quite like their lawn and garden).

          • Kiwiri 6.2.1.1.1

            lol.
            ‘they’ can have their concrete tombs after ‘they’ inter the sight of nature’s life-giving powers.

          • left for deadshark 6.2.1.1.2

            You stole my thoughts on this so called lawn Naturesong, as far as his painting prowess, Delusion wouldn’t know which end too hold the brush, but most likely pay someone under the table, for a couple of bucks.

      • Reddelusion 6.2.2

        All I was highlighting is that I can’t believe anyone in their right mind would contemplate reading those two reports as a good use of your weekend

      • Stuart Munro 6.2.3

        On the right that passes for genius. He can spell! That’s three standard deviations above their mean right there.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      Yes, it’s well known that RWNJs much prefer their beliefs to the reality around them and so will do everything in their power not to learn anything about that reality.

  7. Michael 7

    http://www.salon.com/2015/11/20/bernie_sanders_just_gave_the_most_powerful_speech_of_his_campaign_why_his_socialism_address_was_a_defining_moment/

    An analysis of Bernie Sanders’ “socialism” speech. It was an amazing speech and Bernie is not going to shy away from proudly using the term socialism. Many are comparing it to JFK’s speech on being a Catholic, and Obama’s speech in 2008 on race. He’s the ‘outsider’ candidate – like JFK and Obama were – and he’s explaining his positions to the American people. And he’s doing it very well.

    Meanwhile, he’s just reached an all-time high in the Democratic primary polls: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-hillary-clinton-holds-steady-support-among-democrats-n466641
    He has a more than 20-point lead among those under 30.

    Full speech here: http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

    While Trump is proposing a database of Muslims, there is a progressive candidate on the other side. And in the general election, Sanders would beat Trump by 12 points. http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/poll-shocker-bernie-sanders-leads-trump-and-bush-double-digits

  8. Gangnam Style 8

    Michael Woodhouse has a piece coming out in the Listener soon where he describes himself of having come from abject poverty, which is an abject fucking lie. Both his parents had good jobs and brought up children in a warm dry safe house.

    • b waghorn 8.1

      Cmon they probably only had one car and one house, that is poverty to a right winger.

    • whateva next? 8.2

      perhaps it seems like abject poverty compared to his life now? all relative, and many of us live in “abject poverty” comapred to the people making all the decisions about how we are governed

  9. Draco T Bastard 9

    Spoof captures how advertisers approach millennials and consumerism

    Once never thinks back, never looks ahead. Once knows the world’s just a theme park that closes tomorrow. That’s why we drink tomorrow, today. No consequences, no regrets. Someone else can clean up our mess.

    Sums up the destruction of capitalism and consumerism quite nicely.

  10. millsy 10

    I note that Mike Moore is returning home from his post in DC.

    Looks like we will be getting a torrent of op-ed from him urging Labour to support the TPPA.

  11. Peroxide Blonde 11

    La Belle Trevett is doing Robertson’s dirty work again: rubbishing Sepuloni, who has actually won a seat and has impact in the house, while puffing Ardern who never won a seat and never landed a punch in the house.

    Has the party learned nothing? Why is Little letting his deputy continue with the behaviour he started under Goff and continued under the vacuous Shearer?
    Does Little not get it that the behavior of Robertson and his ABC friends are what lost us credibility and the last election? That type of politics are what turn the public, and the members, off.

    Worse still La Belle Trevett puffs that despicable arse Nash while suggesting Cunliffe has no role to play in the Labour Party.

    By using press briefings to attack a leader who was elected by the membership is an extremely disappointing approach. Andrew Little will be seen as a pawn of Robertson and King if he lets this type of behaviour become dominant again.
    Little promised a fair and united party. He indicated that he would not accept the undermining of colleagues. Cunliffe has been an excellent servant of the party, one of its best ministers and fully deserves the opportunity to continue making a contribution.

    Nash over Cunliffe!! The day that happens Little will loose a lot of respect.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11548766

    • Olwyn 11.1

      Remember that it is Trevett doing the speculating here. Andrew Little is not likely to base his decisions on whatever it is she purports to think. I was also taken aback by the dismissal of Sepuloni, who I have seen as doing very well, not to mention Cunliffe, who has shown a lot of grace under pressure. But I thought, that’s The NZ Herald for you – exerting pressure from outside and stirring the pot is just what they do.

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1

        her piece does stink of leaks from within caucus or from Labour staffers. Trevett will have based her speculations on inside sources, not on random tea leaves.

        • Karen 11.1.1.1

          Sounds like something from Pagani, who likes to think of herself as an insider. In fact, it could have been written by Pagani.

        • Olwyn 11.1.1.2

          Perhaps. But even if that is true, there is no reason whatsoever for Andrew Little to follow Trevett’s suggestions, however she came to them.

          • Karen 11.1.1.2.1

            I doubt very much that Little would follow suggestions from Trevett or Pagani.

            • Anne 11.1.1.2.1.1

              He most assuredly wouldn’t. My understanding is that Josie Pagani is almost persona-non-gratis among the Labour elite and that is unsurprising given some of her past public statements.

              As for Trevett. I imagine her standing in the Labour Party is close to the bottom of the barrel.

              • Ad

                You don’t understand the relationship between the Parliamentary staff and King. She is the master enforcer.

                By setting such a clear reshuffle script into the public like this, Little has been set up for a further story if he deviates from it.

                With the List conferences now done away with, a fairly weak President and a Secretary ready to go, King has the floor to herself. Unfortunately, she’s King of a smaller and smaller island every year. Naturally I hope I am wrong and the government changes to something substantial in 2017. Its just the same tiresome shit that continues to make me want to have nothing to do with politics ever again.

                • Kiwiri

                  The careerists, for the sake of their careers, would rather be in charge of a losing party, than not be in control of a winning party.
                  And why is that?

          • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2.2

            i see part of the reasoning of the leaker as being to tie Little’s hands, and also to signal the continued ascendancy of the Robertson and Right factions. Actually it signals the fact that Cunliffe is still feared by them and that Little’s success at “unifying” the caucus is nothing more than him coming in line with the wishes of those major factions.

          • Bill Drees 11.1.1.2.3

            Olwyn,
            It is not speculation by Trevett.
            Ignore the silly stuff here saying she is biased.
            She is a pro and would not write this story without having actually been explicitly briefed by a Senior Labour Source.
            Robertson picks who does this style of briefing: he is a coward and will always push someone else to do his dirty work: he tacitly let Marieanne Street lead the putsch on conman Shearer.

            I would like to think Andrew Little had no hand in this…………..

            • Kiwiri 11.1.1.2.3.1

              Interesting.

              In any case, the important point is that with those names being eye-rollingly promoted up the ranking, the careerist faction strengthens in caucus. Robertson tightens his network around Little and King will be Robertson’s king-maker.

            • Olwyn 11.1.1.2.3.2

              Andrew Little said that he is not interested in political parlour games, and I like to think he is as good as his word. Those who still want to play such games have to be a bit more cautious these days, and Andrew Little seems quite capable of making his own judgements.

              • Chooky

                +100…hope so Olwyn…that Little is his own man!

                ….imo the Labour Party is stuffed unless it can listen to its grassroots/ flaxroots membership eg bold action on TPPA…bold action on issues that concern New Zealanders eg ownership of their housing stock and land and country and assets

                …and amongst other things this means rolling out a rejuvenated David Cunliffe (the overwhelming rank and file membership choice)

                …a high profile David Cunliffe could stick it home to jonkey and nactional…he has electoral appeal …which does not mean Little relinquishes his leadership organising role

                imo NZF is the closest natural coalition partner for Labour ( this coalition has worked very successfully in the past)

                …the Greens will probably come on board also …despite their competitive and coalitiion splitting and dumping behaviours of late

                (eg support for Red Peak flag and John Key and against the NZ flag included in the first referendum and against the wishes of Labour and NZF…and support for Jonkey nacts framing the housing crisis in Auckland as “crude racial profiling”by Labour ( not helpful) and Ron Marks as being racist …also their continued sniping at Winston Peters as unable to work with them…imo a projection of their own competitiveness and antipathy towards Peters and NZF)

                • …the Greens will probably come on board also …despite their competitive and coalitiion splitting and dumping behaviours of late

                  The Greens position on coalition has been explicit and unchanging.
                  The membership vote on it. Thats it.

                  That means not discounting any coalition partners including National (technically possible but I expect hell to freeze over before this happens), and not assuming the Greens membership won’t vote to tell the Labour party to fuck off if they believe it to be in New Zealands best interest. (also extremely remote)

        • Saarbo 11.1.1.3

          Wouldn’t bet on it CV, Trevett is a Nat party lacky doing her bosses (Daughter of Norm) dirty work.

    • Chooky 11.2

      Peroxide Blonde +100….”Nash over Cunliffe!! The day that happens Little will loose a lot of respect”

      ….isnt Nash a friend of the infamous Lusk?…who is a friend of Slater? ….who is a friend of jonkey? …( Dirty Politics?) Labour needs to be rid of Nash

      http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/story/nash-embarassed-by-links-to-simon-lusk-2015111718#axzz3s6PRJaeg

      Smeagol, he smells

    • b waghorn 11.3

      The fact she goes on about the Turnbull Obama chat shows that this articles are the twitterings of a pointless little shit.
      She’s wrong about Cunnliffe I reckon Littles had him on the back burner till things blow over, English has proved that just because someone misses the top job they can’t have a big input.

    • Ad 11.4

      Wellington-based MPs and their staffers leaking stuff like MP Performance Review metrics and potential Shadow rankings only hurts their potential to gain government. Centralising power to their rightist clique means an homogenized and cowed caucus agreeing to no bold policies. Like last time. One of the others was disunity and leaks. We will have the same mediocre candidate and policy shite to sell to the punters that we had last time if this continues.

      Plus, Wellington MPs and staffers signaling they want to slide Auckland MPs down the list shows they still fear Auckland. Labour’s anti-Midas touch with Auckland business means, as their President noted in his speech to the Conference, that they will be fundraising one meat pack raffle at a time, hundreds and hundreds of times for the next two years. Love him or hate him, Cunlilffe has really good fundraising access to the highly salaried professional services classes in Auckland. If Wellington keeps screwing him over he’ll walk – which they will love – until they run out of money.

      Trevett’s article simply shows the Usual Suspects scorching the earth using the election as a pretext for cleanout. It simply continues to damage their 2017 chances.

      Oh but wait, Nash could come onto The Standard again and remind us it was actually all our fault. Yeah right pal.

      • Colonial Viper 11.4.1

        Bullseye, Ad.

        • b waghorn 11.4.1.1

          “”Labour’s anti-Midas touch with Auckland business means, “”
          Just to clarify are you pro Auckland big business being courted to fund labour ,or just agreeing because Ads comment points out past problems in Labour.

    • Kiwiri 11.5

      Read the piece closely. Claire Trevett, despite being a Nat tool, is still doing her job and ‘reporting’ on a number of things that clearly have been communicated to her from someone in the know in Labour/with the Labour leadership. The language is definite and unambiguous, going into detail, not speculative or made up. Scrutinise the piece and see, for eg:

      * “Expect Kelvin Davis to leapfrog over Nanaia Mahuta to be the highest ranked Maori MP and for Mahuta to drop down.”

      * “Little’s focus will be instead on bringing forward talented newcomers from the 2011 and 2014 intakes, such as Jenny Salesa, Davis and Stuart Nash.”

      * “That is David Shearer’s gain, effectively guaranteeing he will keep his foreign affairs portfolio and possibly pick up defence as well.”

      And a whole paragraph focusing on Cunliffe. ABC-ing at work, as usual. The careerist faction is alive and well, and are determined to cement their own “Jobs. Jobs. Jobs.” What has Andrew Little got – no electorate (a deal has been struck with Annette?), last choice for leadership (read: preferentials went through to the final round before he emerged), i.e. no strong power base. And now, this leak. Again.

      • Northsider 11.5.1

        Little made a strategic error in failing to live up to his promise of replacing King after twelve months.

        The members, who were willing to accept his placings in the post leadership week for the sake of unity, will be less willing to swallow rats when they see that King and Robertson are back running the show.

        Liabilities like Nash and Shearer and weaklings like Ardern and Faafoi will be seen to be in the ascendant!!

        If any elements of this story are true we are fucked.

        Fucked
        Fucked
        Fucked.

        • Ad 11.5.1.1

          Call me crazy but King is necessary.
          They needed an internal enforcer.
          It’s just that it comes at a very high strategic price.

          • Northsider 11.5.1.1.1

            Duncan Garner: refresh your memory with this:
            http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Duncan-Garner-Narcissistic-Labour-proves-voters-were-bang-on/tabid/674/articleID/55918/Default.aspx

            “The ABC club never died when Cunliffe became leader – they just retired to the corner and got more bitter and twisted. It’s no secret who they are: Trevor Mallard is the life president, Clayton Cosgrove, chief plotter, David Shearer, general-secretary, Stuart Nash, head of communications, Annette King, camp mother, Grant Robertson the uncle, Phil Goff, kaumatua, and the errant ABC kids are Jacinda Ardern, Chris Hipkins and Kris Faafoi.”

            Little’ mistake in giving in to the Wellington set will cause Labour to be in opposition for another term. Remember Robertson came THIRD in Wellington Central, King Faafoi Hipkins had bigger reductions in their majorities than Auckland MPs. This group of loosing delusionists now seem to have Little’s ear.

            There is no upside to having King there.

            • Ad 11.5.1.1.1.1

              The ship leaks a whole lot less and is coherent.
              Conference in particular was down to her.
              Little has her at Number 2 to good effect.

              • Tracey

                And remember hager thanked nat staffers in his last book so despite the lack of light shone on nat party probs, they to exist.

  12. Macro 12

    God this makes me angry!
    http://transportblog.co.nz/2015/11/21/hamilton-bypass-to-be-bypassed/
    I cannot imagine a more shortsighted, stupid, and incompetent decision by a government ever! We cannot feed or house our children, we have one of the worst rates of child abuse in the western world, we emit on average 17 tonnes of Carbon each when the global average is 8 (making us the 5th worst on the planet), but we can spent $1B on a by-pass to by pass the Hamilton by-pass (on which we have just spent $200M!). But don’t worry folks – all up it will save you a whole 35 mins on your trip from Wellington to Auckland.
    AND!!!
    By 2041…. if there are any cars left…. some sections will carry up to 10000 vehicles!

    Why not just stand on a hill top some place on a windy day and throw the whole lot, in $100 bills, into the air. At least someone might benefit.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      Maybe the RWNJs are out to gut Hamilton by making sure that nobody ever visits there.

      • Macro 12.1.1

        Yep I think that’s it! I used to live in Auckland for about 30 years after growing up in Wellington. I did the trip from Auckland to Wellington many times. Hardly ever did I find it necessary to drive thru Hamilton- the 1b from Cambridge to Taupari was much quicker and far less traffic. It still is. Or Hwy 27 from Tirau to Pokeno. Up grading 1b would cost about the cost of a flag referendum and serve just as well, in the interim until we transitioned to rail.
        Am in Perth at the moment. The light rail from Perth to Mandjurah travels about the same distance as Auck to Hamilton. It does the trip – stopping at all 12 stations in about 45 mins at speeds up to 150 kmph – quicker and more convenient than a car. There is a train during the day every 10 – 15 mins and no need to worry about catching this or that train. just go and there will be one in 5 mins. For us Kiwis the cost of traveling around Perth for a day is $12 – Less if you buy a Smart ticket. If you are an Australian pensioner you can travel almost any time of the day apart from the rush hours for free. Want to take a family out for the day? travel with up to 7 for less than 12 dollars – ANYWHERE.
        Spending $1 B on building an efficient fast light rail between Auckland and Hamilton would make much more sense.

        • BM 12.1.1.1

          Seriously, you have no idea about Hamilton and the surrounding areas.

          All growth in NZ over the next 25 years will be in the Auckland, Hamilton Tauranga triangle.

          That’s why these roads are getting built and about fucking time.

          • Macro 12.1.1.1.1

            I just happen to live in the Waikato … So yes I do know about it. As for the growth areas – that’s just where you do need a fast efficient public transport system. Visit south Perth sometime if you want to see massive development.

            • BM 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Roads work better in NZ, they’re multi use.

              Cars, trucks, buses they all work on roads, trains are so one dimensional.

              Add in self driving vehicles and roads are by far the better choice, and no I don’t think the world is going to collapse because of peak oil.

              • Macro

                but then you don’t think full stop BM…

              • Draco T Bastard

                Trains carry everything that road carries and does it faster and more efficiently. Self driving vehicles are just the RWNJs such as yourself clutching for a saviour but it doesn’t change the figures at all.

                Really, you’re arguing that we should continue to use inefficient transportation.

              • Colonial Viper

                peak oil was 10 years ago. It’s one of the reasons that the world economy is not going to recover again.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Yep, no matter how much money that the banks create the economy isn’t actually going to grow any more.

        • Halfcrown 12.1.1.2

          Well said Macro @12, could not agree with you more. All these roads are being built for the very vocal and pro National trucking lobby. Lets face it was National’s policy to stuff rail for their trucking mates.
          Had to go to Tauranga last Thursday. We counted going over the Kaimai’s only, not SH 1, 101 heavy trucks and trailers, like container trucks not your local delivery lorries coming in the opposite direction. I guess we can say possibly the same number were going in the same direction as us as I managed to overtake at lest 10. This is a trip we do often, In all the times we have done this trip at different times of the day, we I have yet to see a train on that stretch of rail track that goes through the tunnel.

    • maui 12.2

      Don’t worry we have 100 years of oil left, not. The cheap oil comes from where were looking for it in the great south basin and the arctic, not. auckland and hamilton will become mega cities where everyone drives between them. Our only oil refinery can’t refine the oil we produce in Taranaki. They will make statues of Min. Bridges for outstanding vision. What do you reckon we can do with a billion dollars of smooth asphalt when the trucking industry collapses and people can’t afford to fill up…

    • b waghorn 12.3

      How are they funding it?

    • Chooky 12.4

      who has shares in the road construction companies?…again?

    • BM 12.5

      Fuck off with your doomer peak oil bull shit.

      • b waghorn 12.5.1

        Hell yes once all that pescky fucking ice is gone we can drill the poles,
        Us one wannabee 1%ers can live under a dome of plastic and our money will buy guns to keep the peasants at bay.

        • BM 12.5.1.1

          Crystal ball gazing is for fools.

          No one has any idea what will happen in the future,

          • b waghorn 12.5.1.1.1

            Don’t spoil my fun.
            My three scenarios are
            Cc and rampant capitalism will combine to bring a dark age .
            CC will go into feed back and we’re all fucked.
            We’ll get it together and after a final period of deep instability humans will realise money should just be the grease that lubricates existence instead of the rock dragging us to the bottom of the ocean.

            🙂

          • DoublePlusGood 12.5.1.1.2

            Yeah, we have a very good idea of what will happen in the future based on sound science.

          • Tracey 12.5.1.1.3

            So we cant know we will need this bypass til we actually need it… and then e can just borrow the money then, right BM. Or have you abandoned that “reasoning” from yesterday?

          • Tracey 12.5.1.1.4

            You know currency trading involves an element of predicting the future aye?

            • BM 12.5.1.1.4.1

              Of course it does.

              Same as any investment, could go up, could go down, it’s how you ride the winners and minimize your losses, that’s what makes a successful trader.

              Very few people have that skill.

              Also ,certain bankruptcy awaits the individual not willing to re access and adjust their position.

      • Paul 12.5.2

        You are kidding, right?

  13. Chooky 14

    ‘Russian cruise missiles hit ISIS from Mediterranean & Caspian; 600 killed in one strike’

    https://www.rt.com/news/322881-russia-cruise-missiles-isis/

    ‘UN calls on world to fight ISIS as Security Council unanimously adopts French-drafted resolution’

    https://www.rt.com/news/322931-un-resolution-fight-terrorism-isis/

  14. b waghorn 15

    Yeha for the kiwi team in the dog trial test ,run on Aratiatia station Taupo.

    “”The Trans Tasman test has been won by New Zealand.    Very well done to the guys and congratulations.
     
    Results as follows:       Australia                           1st round  356.00                                                                          – 2nd round           380.0   
                                         New Zealand                     1st round  376.5                                                                            – 2nd round           385.5
     
     
    Aggregate =                Australia                                                                                       726.0
                                        New Zealand                                                                                762.0  “”

    • joe90 15.1

      As the besotted owner of a couple of tricolour heading dogs and no stock, marvelous,

      • b waghorn 15.1.1

        There’s an old guy in his late 80s who trials ,he lives in a retirement village, I’ve been told he trains his dog in a park on rubbish tins. There is a web site
        NZDTA that will tell you where and when trials are happening .

  15. Ergo Robertina 16

    John Roughan has to relinquish Key interview recordings and transcripts for the Bradley Ambrose defamation case:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11548827

    I’m pretty sure Turnbull is confused when he calls Key a role model and really just assumes he’ll be able to get away with the same rubbish in Australia as Key pulls off here. Maybe I’m giving them too much credit, but I think the Australians would not have been bought off by the ‘scumbag journalist’ trope that worked in the teapot case.

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