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Open mike 22/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 22nd, 2020 - 149 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

149 comments on “Open mike 22/07/2020 ”

  1. Rapunzel 1

    I have to wonder what govt has to do when NZ hears today that despite what some people claimed was "impossible" only 6 farms out of 230 farms are left with Mycco Bovis saving $1.3 billion in exports Many in the affected sector still seems to have issues with the far-sighted approach by govt surely working with them has been proven to be the best was y forward for them & NZ

    • Once again, Jacinda and c/o listening to the science. Great results we are having from that. Expecting the various parties to be thankful? Well some are, but some … just the recalcitrant few diehards want to "Do it their way". Farmers are now leaning on their own to use NAIT . National Animal Identification Tracing.

      • I Feel Love 1.1.1

        The RNZ vox pops about Collins yesterday said "we will always vote National here, we're farmers", & that is that. Well I thank Labour on their behalf.

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Guardian provides an insight into China's concentration camps: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/the-perfect-uighur-outgoing-and-hard-working-but-still-not-safe-from-chinas-camps

    Dilara’s entire family are model citizens. Her parents are also fluent Chinese speakers – slightly unusual for Uighurs of their generation. During the 1990s, they were among the only Uighurs working at a big, state-owned utility in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang.

    Her mother had landed the coveted position because she was the top student at her school, which was almost entirely Han. Dilara grew up amongst Han Chinese, in a modern apartment complex in a desirable part of town. Like her mother, she was the top student in school, and attended a prestigious university on China’s east coast.

    But then Dilara made a mistake. She moved to Turkey with her husband in 2015. Her mother came to visit, staying a year to help care for their newborn baby. When her mother returned to China in early 2018, she was told she needed “education”. Her passport was confiscated and she was imprisoned in an internment camp for nearly a year.

    Since 2017, up to 1.8 million Uighurs and other Muslims have been held in what researcher Adrian Zenz calls “probably the largest incarceration of an ethno-religious minority since the Holocaust”. Many have been interned for reasons as trivial as wearing headscarves or long beards, declining to eat pork, or in the case of Dilara’s mother, having travelled abroad. Many of them, according to Dilara, have also had their assets seized.

    Human rights investigators say an outright genocide is taking place. As Uighur men have disappeared into prison or forced labor compounds while mosques and other religious sites have been demolished, Uighur women are being forcibly sterilised, given abortions and IUDs. Many Uighurs abroad fear that speaking out will incur retaliation against their family members back home. For that reason, Dilara asked to use only her first name. Lawyers have filed evidence to the international criminal court calling on it to investigate senior Chinese officials, including Xi Jinping, for genocide and crimes against humanity.

    As 2018 dragged on with no word of her mother’s whereabouts, Dilara’s anxiety mounted. Her relatives deleted her from their phones and a Han Chinese stranger moved into her 85-year-old grandmother’s house, part of a surveillance campaign that has sent more than a million Chinese citizens to occupy Uighur households. Her grandmother, Dilara learned later, would curse the man every day in Uighur, a language he couldn’t understand. “She wasn’t afraid, because she’s so old,” Dilara said.

    Finally, after close to a year, Dilara received a message from an aunt: “She’s out.” Dilara and her husband worked for Chinese companies in Turkey who had sent letters on the family’s behalf, “telling them we love China, we’re not bad people, and we’re not terrorists”.

    What is most upsetting to Dilara – and what compels her to speak out – is that none of her Han Chinese friends know what is happening. During the year her mother was interned, she tried to tell her colleagues about the camps, but “they would always say, ‘No you must be wrong, that can’t be.’”. Her company paid for return trips to China every few months, and each time, her colleagues would ask why she wasn’t coming home too. “I kept telling them, we can’t go back, but they don’t believe me,” she said. To this day, Dilara thinks of herself as both Uighur and Chinese; the identities are not mutually exclusive.

    • greywarshark 2.1

      Thanks for that info Dennis F. I had heard that something bad was going on but hadn't seen details. If enough people wrote to the Chinese asking why they don't let the people live freely as long as they are living good lives, would sheer weight of numbers have an affect I wonder? Like Amnesty International have done for years. It is so sad that people everywhere are so inventive in ways of being inhuman, and the leaders decide inhumanity is the most efficient way to treat other humans – but not themselves.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1

        No, almost zero chance of any effect. The problem is a collective mentality combined with hegemony. Imperialism being recycled via communist ideology. Conformity is required by the system.

        In ecosystems, biodiversity normally prevails and stabilises the system via mutual interactions. Hierarchies in nature are bounded by that holistic context. Our problem is the UN fails at such operational holism, allowing the monoculture in China to suppress biodiversity.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Our problem is the UN fails at such operational holism

          The problem is that the UN and the international law it represents is voluntary and so some countries simply both even if they've signed on to being part of the UN.

          But can you imagine the outcry from the US/China/Russia and permanent members of the UNSC if the UN was made mandatory and with the teeth to enforce international law? They all have, in one way or another, been breaking international law for decades.

    • infused 2.2

      This shit has been on liveleak and other sites (reddit) for years. Not sure why it's coming to light now when no one cared before.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1

        Because China is now regarded as bad whereas before they were seen as the engine of the world by world leaders.

        It isn't that China has changed but that the view of the world leaders has.

  3. Andre 3

    Possible progress on treating COVID and reducing the number of moderate cases that become severe or deadly cases:


    It's a press release from the company developing the treatment, not a peer-reviewed independent report, and the sample size of 100 is small. But the claimed improvements in outcomes are much stronger than any other treatments, and delivering it as an aerosol (more or less like an inhaler) sounds simple and easy. So it's definitely one to watch.

    • Treetop 3.1

      This is the sort of break through which is required. Also the Oxford vaccine is looking the most promising.

      The UK appears to be the front runner in treatment and a vaccine.

    • lprent 3.2

      That is what I'd expect to see first out of gate – a series of treatments to alleviate severe symptoms and death rates.

      The front-leading vaccines are currently completing phase II testing. That is small trials testing that the vaccine candidate isn't immediately toxic, and that there are signs it may have something of the desired effect. Now they have the slower statistical study on efficiacy.

      American CDC says it more concisely..

      Clinical development is a three-phase process. During Phase I, small groups of people receive the trial vaccine. In Phase II, the clinical study is expanded and vaccine is given to people who have characteristics (such as age and physical health) similar to those for whom the new vaccine is intended. In Phase III, the vaccine is given to thousands of people and tested for efficacy and safety.

      Many vaccines undergo Phase IV formal, ongoing studies after the vaccine is approved and licensed.

      As Treetop says, the Oxford crowd appear to be getting particularly close.

      • Andre 3.2.1

        The Phase III issue I'm most curious about is whether anybody jumps into the ethical minefield of doing challenge trials to accelerate finding out how effective their vaccine actually is. Then what the reaction might be if a group somewhere say in China or Russia 'proved' their vaccine was safe and effective using -ahem- involuntary challenge trials.

  4. Andre 4

    Here's a really good overview of rare-earth elements – what they are, what they do, where they are found, recycling challenges …


  5. Ffloyd 5

    Well,well,well. Judith has been sent info from somebody accusing a Labour MP of SOMETHING, possibly INNAPROPRIATE She had passed info to Jacinda for her deal with. Cough. And so it begins.

    • Anne 5.1

      That was inevitable. Tit for tat response.

      Note: Judith Collins puts it out into the public arena. Jacinda Ardern did not do that.

      Who is the leader with integrity?

      • gsays 5.1.1

        Spot on, Anne.

        Collins trying to have her cake and eat it too.

        Copying the Prime Ministers actions… but couldn't help herself and has to Blah Blah during her media rounds.

        Feels very familiar, seemingly arms distance from the story enough but up to her eyeballs in it.

        Dirty Politics 2.0.

        • Muttonbird

          Yep. Collins clearly dealing in Dirty Politics here. Fed the line to Garner who obliged for the sake of his ratings.

          Despite her protestations she would not get involved, she already is in the thick of it.

          • Leighton

            Watch the whole interview here. – https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/nz-election-2020-judith-collins-claims-to-have-received-tip-off-about-labour-minister-passed-to-prime-minister.html

            The key exchange happens at around the seven minute mark., The question about Labour comes completely out of the blue. There was no reason to ask it unless he knew the answer would be "yes". Collins is not surprised or phased by the question at all and doesn't miss a beat before answering. Garner does not seem surprised or phased at all by the answer given. If you believe Garner wasn't told to ask that question, I have a bridge to sell you.

            • Muttonbird

              The rest of the media need to be asking serious questions of Mr Garner.

              Hopefully he'll be looking for work soon.

              Watched it. Ugh. She couldn’t even brush the hair out of her eyes.

              Garner says “ministers” first, then corrects himself to include MPs…

              • Just Is

                The whole thing was staged, Collins was humiliated yesterday in Parliament by Adern, the whole house erupted into laughter, Collins was not impressed

                Payback time from Collins.

                We'll have to wait and see if there's any substance to her claims

                She's in a very risky situation if it's found to be baseless.

                Is she just digging a deeper hole for herself and the party..

                • Muttonbird

                  She was going to be heavily attacked today about the 'mental health' line both Falloon and herself peddled on Monday. It was a clear attempt to deceive in order to minimise the damage, but the media didn't agree and were to continue to question her on it.

                  So, time for the dead cat.

            • Chris

              Collin's says "I am not going to be indulging in any attacks on Labour on these things.” The hyppcrisy beggars belief. If the media doesn't pick up on this there's something extremely wrong.

      • Enough is Enough 5.1.2

        How did the Falloon story reach the media?

        • Anne

          Judith Collins told the media on the Monday (after receiving the info. from the PM’s Office the previous Friday) by way of announcing Falloon was stepping down at the election for mental health reasons. It subsequently changed when she learned the extent of his behaviour and he was effectively sacked.

          But I think you know this EiE so why ask?

      • Chris 5.1.3

        A case of pay back double?

    • Treetop 5.2

      Depends what the allegation is???

      There are some people who have mental consequences because of how serious historical complaints were not cleared up when a person took their complaint to their then MP, the then police minister, the then PM or the then minister of justice and the then police commissioners were incompetent.

      • gsays 5.2.1

        This is not to say that the issue is serious and needs to be dealt with.

        What is obvious, is the tactics have changed. Instead of tipping off a bottom feeding blogger, they are peddling dirt to a sympathetic, cash strapped TV show.

        AND, Collins had to defend the observation she is putting it in the public domain. 'I was asked a question and I answered it…' type shenanagins.

        • Treetop

          This is the sort of break through which is required. Also the Oxford vaccine is looking the most promising.

          The UK appears to be the front runner in treatment and a vaccine.

          • Treetop

            Please remove as a duplicate. Error at my end which I do not fully understand.

          • swordfish

            This is the sort of break through which is required.

            What for the National Party recalibrating the campaign agenda & moving on from Falloon ?

            And you’re suggesting the best way for the Nats to sooth voter concerns about Falloon’s behaviour is via the upcoming Oxford vaccine ?

        • Treetop

          I would like to know the date of the alleged incident and what action was taken by the complainant and if no action taken then there could be a reason e.g. loss of income, protecting family, a he said I said situation.

          I would not hesitate in going to the PM or the current police commissioner with a current issue as I think they are honest and serving the public is a core belief.

    • Tiger Mountain 5.3

      Is this a credible allegation of “something or another”? If it is not a genuine case, Labour should not turn the other cheek yet again. The Boag, Woodhouse and ‘whites only’ Walker Covid playbook, surely has got the point through to Labour HQ–the Nats ARE out to get you!

      The NZ National dirty tricks dept. never sleeps–it will be operating on twin turbo boost with nitrous until it exhumes or manufactures something that will stick.

      Mrs Collins has been humiliated with a backbencher’s behaviour so egregious, and proven, as to be undeniable–she will not let that go–she will attempt to “pay back double” with lashings of caustic interest.

      • Chris 5.3.1

        Nigel Latta needs to do a special episode of Beyond the Darklands dediciated to Collins. Her many disorders makes her closer to evil than anyone Latta's studied.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.4

      I’ve heard they caught a homeless Labour MP man staying in a quarantine hotel for a holiday! Woodhouse told me.

    • Just Is 5.5

      Here's the link.

      Collins has failed already by telling the media


    • Hanswurst 5.6

      If Collins is really clever, she will have something that is substantiated, but will have no intention of letting the Prime Minister know what it is. Note that she has simply arranged to have some unspecified third party get in touch with Ardern. As to whether that person has any intention of doing so, or whether they even exist… who knows? At some point closer to the election, Collins could arrange to have some proxy release the information, and then say, "Remember when I said weeks ago that someone got hold of me with some information on a Labour minister? This was it, and look, the Prime Minister knew way back then, and she's done nothing about it." When the inevitable objection is raised that Ardern is only proven to have heard that there was something, but not what or in connection with whom, Collins could rejoin, "Well, I told her what I knew, if she's so incompetent or her ministers so untrustworthy that she can't get to the bottom of it, that's nothing to do with me."

      If Collins were to pull that off convincingly, and the media were to play along, it wouldn't even really matter how serious the allegation was. The smear on the Prime Minister would stick. Of course, if Collins were too transparent about it, she would end up looking like as much of a dickhead as Boag, Falloon or Walker.

    • mauī 5.7

      I have noticed Collins reactions to this whole saga are swinging back and forth. First it was a mental health issue and we must be respectful and back off. Then it was, he is a liar and I'm angry. Today, it's back to being a health issue and we were extremely concerned for his well being.

      The inconsistency is shameful. What is being manipulated is shameful.

    • Collins was asked a direct question? Could she have confirmed in a better way without raising further questions? Hard to see how.

      Or should she have lied?

      If it was later revealed she had been informed and lied about it publicly she would probably have been damned as well.

      • Hanswurst 5.8.1

        Collins was asked a direct question? Could she have confirmed in a better way without raising further questions?

        Of course she could. She could have said that, as an electorate MP and National front-bencher, she is in constant receipt of various allegations, but that it is important always to do due diligence on the credibility of any claim before making it public in any way, and that it's seldom her place to put anything in the public domain unless it is directly related to government business or concerns members of her own caucus.

      • Leighton 5.8.2

        As above, my strong suspicion is that Garner was tipped off in advance about what the answer would be if he happened to ask that question. Stripped of any background context, it was a bizarre question to ask in circumstances where Collins has been leader of the National Party for less than a week. She would have been rightly left fuming if she had been asked that question out of the blue and had to answer "no".

      • gsays 5.8.3

        If being an apologist for unacceptable practices is your thing, why not work for tobacco companies?

        There are 100 ways for a seasoned MP to answer that question and shut down the line of enquiry. E.g., the time when Collins was being grilled about her time in China, trips to airports, sly visits etc

        That is, IF the seasoned politician wanted to shut it down….

        • Pete George

          I'm not apologising for anyone, and I have always been staunchly against tobacco use (both my parents died of smoking related illnesses, emphysema and cancer and both deterred me from smoking) so that's an offensive comment.

          There are a hundred ways for determined journalists to persist and to expose any half answers.

          It's unsubstantiated speculation that Collins set up the question.

          It looks like we may find out more at 11 am.

          • I Feel Love

            Her bloody comment has so far been unsubstantiated! Hence the bouncing cat.

          • Muttonbird

            Any reasonably intelligent person can see that was a set up.

            You are being wilfully blind to body-language and context here.

            • Pete George

              I haven't seen body language, only verbal and printed reports.

              I'm aware that body language perceptions in politics can be affected by partisan bias.

              • Muttonbird

                Perhaps you'd better take a look at it. Impartially if at all possible.

                I took the time to.

          • Anne

            It would only be an offensive comment if gsays knew the background of your parents but he/she didn't know so it is not offensive.

            • Muttonbird

              Indeed. Pete George doesn't have the right to be offended by that one.

              • I think I have a right to be offended by whatever offends me.

                • Incognito

                  Having a right and being right are still two completely different things, Pete. You’re a tad unreasonable.

                • gsays

                  With rights, come responsibilities.

                  Perhaps, if you are truly offended by my comments, maybe you have a responsibility to not participate in discussions playing devil's advocate.

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    Neocons for Biden! The Canary muses upon Rupert Murdoch's heir donating to the Dem. https://www.thecanary.co/us/us-analysis/2020/07/18/murdoch-family-mobilizes-behind-joe-biden-and-its-not-the-first-time-pseudo-progressives-have-courted-the-corporate-media/

    The Latin American countries of Ecuador and Uruguay, for example, have been pioneers of media reform in the 21st Century. These countries launched programs of media reform that challenged their previously corporatized and overwhelmingly right-leaning press. As a result, new community-based media thrived and the public square benefited from a greater diversity of points of views.

    If media reform is possible in Latin America, then one can only wonder why it’s never been attempted in the US or UK, especially during previous Democratic or Labour party governments. The answer to this is that recent presidents and prime ministers from these parties (particularly Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair) were ideologically in support of neoliberal domestic policies and neoconservative foreign policies.

    But guys, the reason leftist govts in western countries don't do media reform is because they want to defend the establishment against progress. If that isn't obvious to you by now, you really are a bunch of slow learners.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1

      Ruling and exploiting society is only any good if the society remains functional to some extent. Trump is taking it too far even for the likes of our capitalist rulers.

  7. Adrian 7

    Collins publicly passing on allegations. Fuck she is toxic and undeniably delving into Dirty Politics. Isn’t Brownlee head of their newSecret Service disinformation division?

    • Treetop 7.1

      The PM did the right thing over the Falloon issue, ignoring it was not an option.

    • Kiwijoker 7.2

      I have it from an impeccable source that Jucov’s informant is the homeless man.

  8. Peter 8

    So now I can send the leader of the opposition a letter alleging something about the behaviour of one of her MPs, tell leaders of other parties I've done that, let one media person know and it's all on?

    In best Judith tone: "Just saying."

    • Lenore 8.1

      Yeah I get that there will be some shit thrown back at Labour, and of course Collins is going to publicise it being the dick she is. However there is a principle of not being there in the first place. – ie keeping above the level and genuine integrity. Hopefully it is not substantiated but I will be seriously pissed off with any Labour MP who thinks they are so entitled that they think they can get away with stuff. FFS they have one job – to keep their noses clean and carry on doing the good work they are doing and support their awesome leader and not give her any frigging shit to deal with

      • Muttonbird 8.1.1

        What 'stuff' is this Labour Minister supposed to have gotten away with?

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.2

        That is true. There can be and will be MP's on the lefter side of politics who do the wrong thing – and let progressives everywhere down in the process. As individuals we can control that and reduce our exposure to dirty dealings of the right.

      • greywarshark 8.1.3

        Lenore I suggest that you don't emote about something before you know it has happened, and get full details of it. There is plenty to be concerned about that is definitely happening. Try reading Dennis Frank's comment on the Chinese treatment of Uighurs at 2 above. Now that breaks my heart and should also concern you. So why not think about the real problems in the world. Labour being called out for some possibly slanderous infraction should not be a reason to create negativity about the Party which is doing well in trying times.

  9. Adrian 9

    Did National leak the allegation to Mediaworks ?

    • Muttonbird 9.1

      They certainly did.

      This is a dead cat on the table moment no doubt organised by Crosby Textor and Topham Guerin to take away the blow-torch which was on Judith for the deceitful way she treated the Andrew Fallon mental health claim.

      Yesterday even Duplicity-Allen didn’t buy that story.

      This is National Party Dirty Politics continuing apace. It never really stopped, did it.

      • Anne 9.1.1

        I would say it was cooked up by some Nat lackeys who arranged for someone to report something directly to Collins who would have been left out of the loop to enable plausible deniability when the shit hit the fan.

        • Muttonbird

          She was very sure of her answer. Almost scripted. She's good, but not that good.

    • Leighton 9.2

      No proof they did obviously, but the proposition that Garner decided to ask that question apropros of nothing off his own bat is very hard to believe.

  10. Peter 10

    On second thoughts it would be better if thousands contacted all party leaders with accusations.

    I was contacted recently about an MP and his attitude. I can't say anything more about who it was or the behaviour……….

    Walks out the door…….

    • Ffloyd 10.1

      I'm picking Chris Bish or M Woodhouse to be secret informer. Followed by Homeless Man, who seems to be quite sneaky. If none of the above has to be a Young Nat.

      • Chris 10.1.1

        Precisely. Whoever it is would've been waiting for Collins' call: "I'm ready for that tip-off now, cheers, JC."

    • Brigid 10.2

      Oh yes lets do that.

      Dear Judith

      My mother's brother's cousin's uncle's mechanic told of some stuff about a Labour MP

      You want?

      Lotsa love etc


      What're you paying?

  11. Incognito 11

    There’s a chronic leaker in Dunedin. Apparently, somebody tipped off Judith Collins that David Clark allegedly has been spotted riding a bike in his backyard wearing lycra.

  12. Episode 4: ‘We are black … we are human beings’


    "I have complete faith in my officials"

    "I have complete faith in my officials"

    "I have complete faith in my officials" They come across as really nice people.

    Oh shit, maybe I shouldn't have unquestioning faith in my officials:

    "That message should have been brought to my attention. It wasn't. That does not meet my expectations and I've made that clear." ….. not withstanding previous examples such as all those "scummy" people; demographic spreadsheets; "we have enough Labour Inspectors"; under-resourcing; "Kaiser Smol"; curvy screens; failed restructures, etc., etc…….

    Never mind! Once again, Jacinda to the rescue:

    "What I can assure anyone potentially involved in a case is regardless of whether they are present or not we have a track record of pursuing cases where there is exploitation of workers regardless of whether or not they are able to testify in court."

    (That's of course if we decide to pursue a case in the first place)

  13. Lenore 13

    Great to hear all your thoughts about this. Just listening to RNZ feedback and people saying that this is dirty politics and the difference about Jacinda not going public and Judith mentioning it in the media.

  14. ianmac 14

    The PM is calling an unexpected news conference re the allegation about a Labour Minister. How do we know where/when that will be?

    • greywarshark 14.1

      How come this scuttlebutt becomes top priority? We have plenty of other things concerning us. The country can't be put on hold every time someone is accused of an obscene gesture, or says something inappropriate.

  15. ianmac 15

    If the allegation turns out to be nothing Collins will be really in the pooh.

    If it is serious then it will be a distraction away from Collins. The PM calling a conference means she will front it and deal with it straight away.

  16. Dennis Frank 16

    In a four-minute interview, Hosking discusses `working with NZF' with Greens co-leader: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/video.cfm?c_id=280&gal_cid=280&gallery_id=222293

    James identifies their tactic of `ankle-tapping'. But if you have a political party that was designed as reactionary, why wouldn't they default to reacting? Being pro-active in signalling their response at the start of policy development is ideal, and I see James as coming from that position, but I recall checking out the NZF website a long time ago and not encountering any policy. Conservatives just defend the status quo!

  17. ianmac 17

    Prime Minister has announced an unscheduled press conference for 11am on Wednesday morning.

  18. Shanreagh 18

    On Farrar's blog on Sunday he was suppressing a few posts and later posters & from the gleeful tone of the tiny bits that were left it did not seem to be about the Falloon upheaval.

    Sounded more like an unsubstantiated 'scandal'/dirt or what qualifies as dirt in Nats' eyes, to do with Labour. Mind you with them it is a bit of shock horror still to have an PM who was pregnant and gave birth while still being PM.

    • Shanreagh 18.1

      Hmmmm. So my reading between the lines Farrar's concern on Sunday was about Labour and not Nat upheaval.

      All sides need to get together with their leaders and say is there anything you need to let us know.

      This is distracting from the release and discussion of policies.

  19. James 19

    Barry Soper just said on ZB that he understands the minister is iain lees galloway

    Looking forward to 11am

  20. Jum 20


    What was Falloon doing in 2014? How many of those young nats of 2014 are now in parliament? If they got away with that behaviour then, they must surely believe they can do it now.

    This is an old comment but has anything really changed? When national mps try to tell me that Falloon’s behaviour is not their party’s values or mps’ values or their favoured bloggers’ values, they are spinning.

    I must read Dirty Politics again – renew my understanding of something I hoped might not be happening in 2020.

    Judith Collins has not changed her attack culture. Good to see that proved. New Zealanders need to see it anew. Nat acquaintances now saying they forgot her history; I remind them. And now, so is Judith Collins.

  21. ianmac 21

    "There is speculation that Lees-Galloway has already resigned. He has deleted his Twitter account."

    Jacinda appears to be acting quickly. That is good. If the "crime" is serious then he will not stand at the next election. Wonder if these behaviours have always been in Parliament but out of sight?

  22. There has been "speculation" for a while. Rumours both true and false

    JA has handled this well. extremely well

    There are further questions of course …… such as how the matter has been handled with "the agency" itself, and whether or not the incident has had any effect on the way they operate 'ethically'.

    Episode 5 ………

  23. Lenore 23

    Jacinda did a brilliant job. May be we should question whether men should be in politics at all, they do let their hormones run away with them. I do worry when I get on a plane with a male pilot – will they be ok? Men have historically had a great difficulty dealing with complexity and I know we are all for equal rights, but scientific studies do show… 🙂

    • I Feel Love 23.1

      Lenore, ha! & the PM has set the bar very high…

    • RedBaronCV 23.2

      He he I've wondered that myself. Plus should they pay higher tax to offset the costs of police, corrections, justice which are consumed pretty much by males?

    • OnceWasTim 23.3

      Not only should there be a cabinet manual, but probably a cabinet crib sheet. It could include various 'demographic profiles' like

      1. If you are a male who is possibly going through your mid-life crisis ………..

      Various DOs and DONT's like

      – get a prostitute and pay well (not on the taxpayer), or if you don't fit the 'straight' profile, then go to the Tory Street Temple (because what plays in Vegas, stays in Vegas – unless there's a fire alarm, in which case all bets are off)

      – Never get a taxi with your bit of fluff, and if you do need transport, better a friend or even an UBER or OLA because chances are it'll all be kept within the community, even though you have been a party to allowing most of them to be ripped off.

      – etc.

      2. If you are a male who has campaigned on the importance of "the family"……..


      I'm not sure I'm an expert though. I seem to be the only person I know that wasn't "shocked" and horrified at Todd Muller's resignation (after having witnessed his managerial brilliance) in the Bay of Plentyness.

      The senior ranks of the Public Service of course would need something similar.

    • KJT 23.4

      It generally takes two to tango!

  24. Jum 24

    At this rate the male politician will become an extinct species. Then, they'll be demanding a male quota…

  25. ianmac 25

    Collins did not manage her first as Leader in Question very well yesterday.

    Today she will try to embarrass Jacinda with this question:

    1. Hon JUDITH COLLINS to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that “when we’re talking about infrastructure, it’s not just about the projects we in the Government are responsible for, we also have the opportunity to partner with communities, with iwi and local government. That’s what the $2.6 billion worth of shovel-ready projects we announced earlier this week were all about”?

    Sounds like a Yes to me.

    • PaddyOT 25.1

      JC , like a jack-in-the-box, will run to the media again with a new thought tomorrow, pose with her flirty "finger guns" and announce a new ' tough on crime' policy….. the stoning of adulterers

  26. Robert Guyton 26


    "People had become so “casual” about their relationship with cars and vans they had forgotten it was one and a half tonne of unforgiving steel.

    “It can mash you like a bug instantly."

    Don't try to stop your car's progress with your puny human strength!


    • weka 26.1

      am now mentally reviewing all those times as a young woman push starting a car with the drivers door open and jumping in one the car started rolling.

  27. Did Winston drop a bomb in the house today when, under parliamentary privilege, he named the source of the leak of his superannuation mistake?

    He certainly got up the noses of both Seymour and Bishop!

    • Peters doing dirty under parliamentary privilege?

    • Anne 27.2


      I'll bet it is true but Peters might have got some of the detail wrong and they're using it to deny it is true.

      No wonder Tova baby seems to be getting so much insider info.

    • Speaking to reporters outside the House, Seymour said Peters was simply repeating "sleazy, baseless innuendo saying things that never happened" in the House.

      "I categorically deny involvement in that leak – I had nothing to do with it."

      He said that Morton did not give him information and he did not pass on any information, as alleged by Peters in the House.

      "The reason this accusation is being made is we're in a personal relationship – he's abusing that fact and I think that's a new low for New Zealand politics."

      Seymour said Peters is struggling in the polls and is "finished and is now trying to drag other people down with him".

      "Winston Peters is a desperate man making it up and in this case, telling lies."

      He said he didn't know anything about Peters superannuation payments until they hit headlines.


      • Incognito 27.3.1

        $317k double or nothing.

        • Pete George

          As I understand the legal process he may struggle to use new information on an appeal. Especially as here he seems to be claiming that someone other than the five people he took to court were guilty – that effectively would confirm he got his original case wrong.

          He could take Morton and Seymour and Watkins and Farrar to court in a separate case perhaps. but I think all Peters is targeting at the moment is the election.

          Dirty deeds in desperate times.

          Labour should rule out doing anything with him.

          • Incognito

            If the appeal is part of the election campaign it could be the most expensive after National’s ‘Lose Yourself’ one. How stupid naive is WP when it comes to legal affairs, in your opinion?

            • Pete George

              I don't know in general, but he seems to have really botched his legal action against Bennett, Tolley, Hughes, Boyle and the Ministry of Social Development.

              Even if he somehow manages to successfully appeal the $320k costs he can't recover what it has cost him directly.

              He has admitted he had the wrong people in court.

              And I'm sure he can't substitute five defendants for another however many people he claims were actually guilty in an appeal. If he proves it was someone else it proves his original court action was flawed.

              • lprent

                He will be able to argue that the level of costs is overstated, and that ultimately the MSD was responsible for the information being leaked due to their negligence in providing the information outside of the allowed usage. Basically the MSD should pay much of the costs for the consequences of their actions as a legal entity. Offhand I think that he has a far better case against the costs than he had in trying to identify the perpetrator of the leak.

                I suspect that there are quite a lot of grounds to argue on. Especially as this is a civil rather than a criminal case and one that has a high public interest component. I don’t know about you, but if I had someone leaking any private information about me from the MSD of IRD or MOH or anywhere, then I’d start by considering how to abolish that part of the public service and making everyone there unemployable – then I’d work down to how I could run the vendetta to get close to that objective.

                There is essentially no difference between this and Hager winning a case against the banks for passing out information to the police without going through the mandated procedures like getting a production order from the court.

                I think that Peters was remarkably restrained.

                • Shanreagh

                  Yes got it in one.

                  and that ultimately the MSD was responsible for the information being leaked due to their negligence in providing the information outside of the allowed usage.

                  MSD has played a large part in this whole business.

                • Graeme Edgeler (an actual lawyer):

                  I'm not sure that Peters has a great chance of success on the appeal – the evidential difficulties in proving who leaked the information to news media remain. There remains some hope for Peters, the High Court judge was very close to finding that even release of Peters' name to the ministers by the relevant departmental chief executives was improper, but determined that in the circumstances of the case, with close proximity to an investigation of another Member of Parliament, Metiria Turei, there was a heightened need for the minister to be informed.

                  He addresses another issue:

                  But there is another aspect of this case that concerns me today. Peters lost and as usually happens when someone loses a civil claim in New Zealand, the Court ordered that the party that lost make a contribution towards the legal fees of the party that succeeded. In this case, Peters was ordered to pay around $320,000. He wasn't ordered to pay all of the defendants' costs, which are likely to have been substantially higher.

                  This is an utterly ridiculous sum. The numbers don't surprise me: I know that litigation is expensive, but the legal system should be embarrassed that a claim of this nature, even one that was ultimately unsuccessful, could result in the losing party being ordered to pay so exorbitant a sum.

                  Now, Peters' claim was probably more complex than most civil claims. There were five defendants and three sets of lawyers. And while it's well short of the most complex commercial disputes, an eight-day civil trial is relatively lengthy. But still. $320,000 in costs covering only some of the expense incurred in defending the claim shows how expensive legal action has become. A $320,000 bill would be ruinous for most people, without even taking account of the costs of taking the action, and given the finding that Peters' privacy was breached, and the Court accepts it was (albeit Peters was unable to prove by whom).

                  Equally, of course, people defending claims shouldn't be put in the position where they have to spend ruinously large sums either (although, in this case, the defence was government-funded).

                  The court system should not be so hideously expensive that it is beyond the reach of ordinary people. And it clearly is. This isn't the only case where this is apparent.

                  You know how expensive court cases can be when someone pursues an agenda with an absence of adequate evidence.

                  Peters may have also been using the cost of litigation as a way of punishing those he thought responsible.

                  There is another way he could have tried to fix the no surprises problem.

                  There is another option, of course: the no surprises principle isn't "law" – it's simply stated in the Cabinet Manual, which Cabinet could change. Peters is the deputy prime minister, and a member of Cabinet: and as he didn't have success in the Courts in vindicating his rights, he could push for it to be changed for the rest of us. That wouldn't fix the breach of privacy that occurred in his case, but it would hopefully make similar breaches less likely in the future.

                  That would be for the good of the country, but Peters seems more intent on his own good regardless of the costs to the country.

                  • lprent

                    Peters may have also been using the cost of litigation as a way of punishing those he thought responsible.

                    Unlikely, as far as I am aware all of the parties apart from Peters were lawyer-ed up using the taxpayer as the funding agency. It would appear that the only person at risk of financial damage was Peters. Which makes the premise of your argument look ridiculous.


                    Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters must pay the Crown $317,818 in legal costs connected to his failed privacy case against top public servants, a ministry and two former National ministers.

                    The High Court has ordered Peters to pay close to the full amount sought by the Crown on a scale of costs used by the courts – but it is understood the full bill to the taxpayer is around $1.07 million.

                    And the New Zealand First leader's debt to the Crown is higher than it might have been because he had turned down an offer from Crown lawyers to end his action against the two top public servants, State Services Commissioner Peter Hughes and former Ministry of Social Development chief executive Brendan Boyle.

                    The point is that the disclosure of the private information appears to have only had one source – it was disclosed from the MSD. Almost certainly leaked through ministerial disclosures one way or another.

                    That means that the MSD violated its commitments. I'm pretty sure that the crown isn't allowed to do that for any reason that isn't part of legislation – which none of this appears to have been. Needless to say there has been no-one held accountable for this breach. Indeed, so far the courts appear to have been giving a license for public servants to disclose whatever information that they wish, without being given explicit permission to do so – provided there is a minister in the route.

                    I'm pretty sure that the supreme court will have some issues with that. I know that I damn well do.

        • Pete George

          More like 5% or nothing.

          • Incognito

            Seymour’s odds were always better: 0.50% and one Seat in Parliament.

          • Robert Guyton

            Pete – do you reckon Slater supplied Collins with the dirt on Galloway?

            • Pete George

              I'd be very surprised given that Collins referred the supplier of information to Ardern.

              And I'd be very surprised if Collins does anything that would directly connect her to Slater now. That would be political madness, and I think she's smart enough to know that. As far as I have observed she's kept a distance at least on political matters since 2014.

              By the sound of things the information about ILG could have come from any number of sources, given how it seems to have been common knowledge in journalist circles for months.

              I've seen it mentioned but can't remember where.

              Do you think that Ardern nor her office knew nothing about it until alerted by Collins?

              • Chris

                "I'd be very surprised given that Collins referred the supplier of information to Ardern."

                Don't you think this is just part of Collins trying to look uninvolved and completely blameless? How do you explain Garner's patsy question? How can you "observe" whether Collins and Slater haven't been communicating since 2014? There's no way they wouldn't be communicating and every reason for them to hide that commincation. These people aren't the type to be scared off by Hager's book. Regardless of anything they will continue to do exactly what they do, and the only thing that changes are their methods of attempting to remain undetected and to look squeaky clean.

              • Robert Guyton

                I think Slater would easily have masked his involvement in this issue; after all, he's well-practiced in deception, as you know. Collins and Slater are besties; their relationship won't have ended because the muggles got a sniff of it, Pete! Or do you reckon they're playing fair now smiley

                • I wouldn't trust Slater on anything.

                  I'd be very surprised if Collins would risk doing anything that could be linked back to Slater.

                  There seems to have been quite a few possible sources of the information.

                  This affair's been known about for months down in Wellington. Even senior Labour MPs knew about it for months, and did nothing.


                  Do you think that Ardern only found out about it when advised by Collins this week? Surely senior MPs would keep her informed of possible problems in the ranks.

                  It now appears that Collins has played politics timed for effect, but Ardern may also be guilty of that.

                  • In Vino


                    Please tell me which iconic PM came in to Government and instantly dismissed all MPs in their party who were known to be having illicit sex.

                    Your attempt at equating Jacinda and Judith fails. Jacinda has obviously tried to do the minimum, and refrain. Judith appears to have introduced old material at the time she wanted, and used a patsy question from Garner to publicise the thing in a way that Jacinda did not. Judith could have told Garner that it was not appropriate for her to give any details, which I believe Jacinda would have done. But Judith did not.

                    Big difference, Pete.

                    • It may well be that Garner was primed, that's very common in politics. It happened to me in one of my first political interviews (a lame attempt to embarrass me on local TV by Te Reo Putake as it happens).

                      But it really didn't make any difference. Ardern says she had already dumped ILG the day before. So why had she not advised the public? Organising PR and timing to suit her? She seems to have been playing the public as much as Collins.

                    • Lame? It worked a treat! You looked like a possum in the headlights, Pete.

                      However, as I believe I said at the time, you at least had the courage of your convictions and put yourself forward for election. That's very much to your credit.

  28. mary_a 28

    What about this one then … needs to be addressed by Winston Peters in his capacity as Antarctica minister.


    Peters giving wealthy friends the opportunity to visit Antarctica courtesy of us, the taxpayer!

  29. satty 29

    I trust Winston Peters’ friends donated those $50 million Antarctica NZ was looking for.

    Or how much did they actually donate?

  30. Jum 30

    Didn't John Key steal a pebble from Antarctica and pretend he had forgotten he picked it up? Like the rest of his past and current stable of 'privileged' mps and pretend bipartisan supporters, no morals, no integrity.

  31. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora


    That's is sad sharks becoming extinct around the world.

    Those construction companies will have to change their testing system so they are not biased against weed.

    The progressive home ownership fund looks great.

    Ka kite Ano

  32. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    That's a good looking trophy.

    Teno pai to the fund for mahi in rual comunitys.

    I think building dams to store water for the dry season is good but not for irrigating 24 7.

    Ka kite Ano

  33. Eco Maori 33

    Kia Ora.


    That's is good $25 million for the regions to help the health system cope with PEE.

    That's is cool mammoth bones find.

    Its great to see rear flax being preserved weavers make Awsome art with flax.

    Awsome looking Waka.

    Ka kite Ano

  34. Eco Maori 35

    Kia Ora


    Cool $30 million study for Pumped hydro electricity storage. That's the way of the future Green energy.

    Ka kite Ano.

  35. Eco Maori 36

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    That's is cool Waikato Tainui looking into providing a better health service for their people in their rohi.

    Good to see wananga teaching people about the Maori God's and traditions in their district.

    Ka kite Ano.

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