Open mike 22/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 22nd, 2021 - 213 comments
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213 comments on “Open mike 22/11/2021 ”

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  1. Gezza 1
    22 November 2021 at 7:00 am

    .
    Blazer (Friday): What qualities do you admire in a leader Gezza?

    I asked for a few hours to think about that one before replying. I’ve had that time now (n between some rellies joining me for a few days in a working bee i n & around Pookden Manor) & I’ve decided to frame my response around the qualities I think a good PM should have – as that was the context of our discussion .

    Others please feel free to critique my list, or add or replace anything they think is missing, or they have a better “quality” for.
    ………………………..
    A Good PM

    Intelligent. Able to understand complex issues & identify constructive solutions to problems, both individually & when working collectively with Cabinet, caucus, departmental advisers & industry experts.

    Good communicator. Always clear. Circumspect when the situation requires it (eg for reasons of national security, diplomacy, or policy not finalised yet) but not vague or waffly.

    Good people skills. Relates easily & well to people of all backrounds. Knows how to spot talent (intelligence, people skills, capacity for learning and hard work) among caucus members. Matches colleagues’ abilities to portfolios well.

    Sets clear vision & strategic goals for Government, so that Ministers know what their departments – and THEY – are expected to achieve, & by when.

    Sets clear vision & strategic goals for New Zealand as a society & as an independent country with its own unique national goals, priorities, & interdependencies, & international relationships.

    Good People Manager. Recognises & rewards good performance by MPs by promoting them; rewards persistent bad performance or clear lack of ability by demoting MPs or not appointing them to important portfolios.

    Consultative, but also decisive when Cabinet or Caucus reach an impasse & a decision MUST be taken – even if that decision subsequently turns out to be a wrong one.

    Tolerant of Cabinet Ministers’ & backbench MP’s mistakes – within sensible (common sense) limits! Nobody’s perfect. Recognises this when things go wrong for Party MPs within the Parliamentary working environment, but ensures that lessons are learned.

    Strong. Does not shy from sacking Ministers or taking other disciplinary measures when these are clearly required because of MP foolishness or grossly inappropriate / unlawful behaviour.

    • Red Blooded One 1.1
      22 November 2021 at 7:47 am

      Hi Gezza, I'm not sure of the context you were asked to define Leadership but having read your list i am wondering, in our lifetime, do you think any other PM has had more of those qualities than our current one? I know others will disagree but it seems to me that Ardern fits most, if not all, of those qualities.

      • Gezza 1.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 8:03 am

        I’m pondering that one, RBO. Give me some time.

        I came up with this list based on what qualities, from my observations over my lifetime, a good chairperson of a board, AND a good CEO (private or government) has. Because, imo, a good PM essentially combines those two roles.

        Sometimes a good COTB & a good CEO has the intelligence to appoint others who have some qualities they lack to fill the gaps as their trusted advisers. Helen Clark did this with H2, for example.

        I didn’t try & write it around a particular PM, but from what I remember, Norman Kirk comes close meeting most of those. Jacinda Ardern, I’m not quite so sure. Judith Collins however doesn’t get within a bull’s roar of meeting most of those requirements, in my view.

        • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 8:14 am

          Gezza: you've expressed your disenchantment with Jacinda Ardern before, and here, it seems, you've set up a format for criticising NZ Prime Ministers; is your hope that commenters here will similarly share their anxieties about Jacinda?

          I was pleased to read the response from Red Blooded One.

          • Gezza 1.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 8:42 am

            “Gezza: you’ve expressed your disenchantment with Jacinda Ardern before, and here, it seems, you’ve set up a format for criticising NZ Prime Ministers;”

            G: No I haven’t. I’ve set out the qualities I personally think a good PM has. Jacinda Ardern has some of those qualities. Or, at least, sometimes she displays them. Helen Clark has many of those qualities. John Key had some, but not others & I learned not to trust Key.

            I believe I’m a more dispassionate observer than you are when it comes to such issues, as I’m not politically tribal, Robert, like you are.

            Reminds me: One obvious quality I completely missed out & I’m now adding adding. Honesty.

            “is your hope that commenters here will similarly share their anxieties about Jacinda?”

            G: No. You should know me well enuf by now. If that is what I meant, that is what I would have said. When I post, I say what I mean, & I mean what I say. I’m always happy to clarify if questioned, so thank you for at least asking that question. Don’t try and read my mind, Robert. You are no better a mind-reader than I am. And I can’t read minds.

            “I was pleased to read the response from Red Blooded One.”

            G: So was I.

            • Gypsy 1.1.1.1.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 9:11 am

              Your original post was clear, and thought provoking. FWIW:

              Intelligent: Undoubtedly

              Good communicator: This has been her strength; in recent months there is a risk it is becoming her weakness. An example: the proposed hate speech legislation.

              Good people skills: Yes to your first point. Not so much to your second.

              Sets clear vision & strategic goals (etc): No. I sense at times there is no overriding vision beyond slogans, but to be fair that could be because of the nature of our political system (e.g. in the first term she was in a coalition with a party that she is not ideologically comfortable with).

              Good people manager: Jury's out. In fact this one is hard to gauge unless you are close to the workings of her caucus.

              Consultative but also decisive: Again that's difficult without being an insider.

              Tolerant of Cabinet Ministers’ & backbench MP’s mistakes/Strong: I've combined these. At times she's been too tolerant. Phil Twyford, David Clark and Clare Curran both got too much latitude, and right now Poto Williams and Kris Faafoi are being given latitude I'm not sure they deserve. But I'll say this – the PM may be hamstrung if she senses a lack of depth in her caucus. In other words a perceived weakness in this category may in fact reflect strengths in others as she seeks to balance the work needing doing with the talent available.

              • Pete …
                22 November 2021 at 10:21 am

                The best way to handle people given latitude is to give them none of course.

                What were the excesses of latitudes Ardern gave David Clark and Clare Curran?

                • Gypsy …
                  22 November 2021 at 11:33 am

                  "The best way to handle people given latitude is to give them none of course."

                  I assume that's sarcasm. I run an international business, and I give my team a lot of latitude, but in return my expectations are clear, as are the consequences of non performance.

                  "What were the excesses of latitudes Ardern gave David Clark and Clare Curran?"

                  It took too long for her to sack them, in a nutshell. And she prevaricated. On the On 7/9/18 she said Curran's job was 'not on the line', yet accepted her resignation just hours later.

                • Tricledrown …
                  22 November 2021 at 12:16 pm

                  They were going off on tangents and not team players add a level of incompetency too.No govt either National or Labour are all of the same competency just like Key and Clark they pushed out liabilities.

                  To also show that those who didn't stick to the team plan consequences are coming .

            • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1.2
              22 November 2021 at 9:58 am

              I felt sure you were meaning the discussion to focus on Jacinda Ardern, Gezza, but if you mean us to discuss PM's from the past as well, may I ask you about your statement:

              "I learned not to trust Key"

              You trusted Key initially, then learned not to trust him?

              For what reasons did you find him trustworthy, initially?

              What made you distrust him, ultimately?

              • Gezza …
                22 November 2021 at 10:16 am

                I never liked or trusted Sir John.

                Sorry Robert. Not really interested in thinking about & then commenting further on Key. Projects to do at Pookden Manor & a perfect, sunny, wind-free mornng for doing them. Getting out there and into them while I’m still able to. Later, dude. 👍🏼

                • Robert Guyton …
                  22 November 2021 at 11:08 am

                  Ah! Just Ardern then.

                  • Gezza …
                    22 November 2021 at 1:03 pm

                    No. Already told you, Robert, you’re a hopeless mind reader.

                    The way YOU think is NOT the way I think.

                    Give up trying to needle me. Not gonna work. 🙄

                    Find something more productive to do.

                    • Westykev …
                      22 November 2021 at 3:20 pm

                      Hang in there Gezza

                      Robert gets a hard-on either defending Jacinda or having a go at a previous poster named James.

                      Other than that his posts are generally good.

                      Love your posts on the ducks and general commentary. Really enjoy reading the non-partisan commentators on this site

                    • Gezza …
                      22 November 2021 at 9:57 pm

                      @ Westykev

                      Thanks kev. That sort of encouragement makes me want to continue to contribute.

                      I note that dissent & non-partisan commenters seem to be quite welcome here of late & I like that.

                      I’m always prepared to change my views if I’m persuaded by a good argument, or if I’m shown to be clearly wrong – at least, I hope I am.

                      I read a lot more here than I comment on.

              • bwaghorn …
                22 November 2021 at 11:45 am

                Key had me thinking finally an honest politican till about 4 months out from the 2008 election ,then I remember my bullshit detector starting screeching, I had know real political leaning back then .

                • roblogic …
                  22 November 2021 at 11:57 am

                  I voted Key in 2008 because he promised to address the housing crisis and child poverty. What a sucker I was.

                  • alwyn …
                    22 November 2021 at 12:17 pm

                    And I bet you have been voting for whoever promised to fix the same problems at every election that has followed.

                    And guess what? Both problems have got worse every single time. What are you going to do in 2023?

                  • DukeEll …
                    22 November 2021 at 12:37 pm

                    And you voted Adern in 2017 and 2020?

                    How has housing and child poverty gotten better?

                    fool me once shame on you…

                    and remember, we were asked by Adern to judge her by her solutions to these issues

                  • Jimmy …
                    22 November 2021 at 12:57 pm

                    Are you pleased with the results on poverty and housing under this government?

                    • roblogic …
                      22 November 2021 at 1:01 pm

                      No. Deeply pissed off at this incrementalist wet bus ticket neoliberal status quo gutless Blairite pack of weasels who are happy for homeowners/ "investors" to get billions of free $$$$$$$ in unearned capital gains but are like Scrooge when it comes to helping the poor.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 November 2021 at 1:17 pm

                      We elect the "pack of weasels" we deserve Jimmy – it'll be NAct's turn again (too) soon. Hang in there Jude.

          • GreenBus 1.1.1.1.2
            22 November 2021 at 9:14 am

            That's a great list Gezza, all good qualities but unfortunately the downside is just more Blah Blah Blah.

            Adrian I agree, a huge fail on climate change, child poverty, housing crisis any many more. Big win on Banking and Property Investment.

            I like JA as our PM but Labour need more action on all our crises and less Blah Blah Blah.

        • Red Blooded One 1.1.1.2
          22 November 2021 at 8:17 am

          Thanks Gezza. I don't disagree with your list, all admirable qualities. 👍

          • Anne 1.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2021 at 10:33 am

            Yes. I also liked your list of qualities needed for a good PM Gezza. You will have spent a lot of time putting it together so good on you.

            I also agree with RBO that Jacinda Ardern reflects all those qualities. Of course she isn't perfect and she would be the first to agree. For example, I find her a bit waffly sometimes and have been known to tell her as much while watching her on TV. 😡

            The largely misogynistic memes that her opponents have tried to pin on her… she's a lightweight who doesn't know what she is doing and, she has no control over her ministers etc., and they have no policies is so much hogwash. Unfortunately there are people whose memory cells are non existent and they fall for the nonsense.

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.2
        22 November 2021 at 8:26 am

        “i am wondering, in our lifetime, do you think any other PM has had more of those qualities than our current one?”….really, are you serious?
        Apart from Covid, Ardern has been the most ineffectual and pointless Labour PM in my life time, and that really is saying something..though to be fair she has been great for anyone who profits from banks, landowners, landlords and corporate monopoly owners and their shareholders…turns out she is great at talking, shit at actually doing anything…you only need to observe her (complete lack of) action on climate change to understand this plain fact.

        Jacinda Ardern: "my generation's nuclear free moment"….get the fuck out of here!

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/08/jacinda-ardern-climate-change-is-my-generation-s-nuclear-free-moment.html

        • Gypsy 1.1.2.1
          22 November 2021 at 8:53 am

          I listened to a podcast with Murray Bolton recently. Bolton, who is 73, said he had lived through some very good Labour governments (he named the Clark government specifically). His opinion – this is the worst government in his lifetime. Of any political makeup.

          • mac1 1.1.2.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 11:01 am

            Gypsy, I have to confess I said Murray Who? So I looked him up and I am now wondering why I should pay his 'reckons', his opinions, any more weight than, say, my own?

            I'm 72 and have seen some ten different governments of various lengths of tenure, and my opinion is different from this 'rich-lister businessman /entrepreneur.'

            One of our downslides in critical thinking being shown more clearly recently is our credence in celebrities, as if being famous gives us more intellect or specialised knowledge, when all it does is feed our confirmation bias. I bet, Gypsy, you gave this citation to listen to Murray Who? because he believes what you believe.

            I ask, rather, what specialised knowledge or intellect he brings that I should pay attention, and even defer to?

            This is on my mind because I have had to run a critique as part of my position in an organisation of a racist, misogynist, extremist ranting letter which had been published with a long CV of the author of the rant. The purpose of the CV was to add weight to this man's opinions, when it did nothing to show any expertise or specialised knowledge.

            Funnily enough, this ranter was also a CEO and company founder, like Murray Who? All it did for me was to confirm my incipient confirmation bias about the predilection of famous persons (especially CEOs and business founders) to pontificate about things they have but lay knowledge of. Lucky I'm not famous, eh?

            • Gypsy 1.1.2.1.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 11:59 am

              Murray Bolton is a highly successful businessman. He has also taken on the power of the government in court and won, and is now helping other kiwi's stuck in the insane MIQ system get home. And you are?

              • Shanreagh …
                22 November 2021 at 4:53 pm

                Doesn't mean he is right, a good guy or has any other admirable traits though.

                His reckons are as good as anyone else's and no more.

                This uncritical admiration and views that people have something of worth to give the nation because they have got/acquired lots of money is a less than desirable trait.

                It seems to be more prevalent (eg the people who admired John Key because he had worked in the money markets) and this is sad as NZ was, in times past, a country that it was said 'Jack's as good as his master.

                • Gypsy …
                  23 November 2021 at 9:05 am

                  Bolton was an admirer and supporter of the Clark government. It’s ok if you disagree with him. As far as I know that’s still allowed.

              • mac1 …
                22 November 2021 at 4:58 pm

                How does that qualify him to pronounce on what is/was the best or worst government in 60-70 years? To pronounce so certainly that we are directed to a podcast to be enlightened!

                Who I am gives me no more right to pronounce upon the worth of 10+ governments more than any other reasonably well informed citizen.

                That was my point. Murray Bolton from the evidence you have given, his age and business experience, and ability to pay for and win a court judgement is not an experienced politician, historian or political scientist whose measured judgement upon the relative worth of 60 years of NZ government can be trusted.

                I do know that I would be looking at factors such as financial, health and employment statistics, I'd be looking at foreign policy, housing and poverty rates. I'd be researching quality of laws passed, quality of life and average income, environment and social issues, treatment of minority groups, the penal system and the use of state powers.

                At least I'd be arguing from a position of some credible knowledge.

                I've not heard the podcast. We were not given a reference. Does Mr Bolton traverse any or all of those areas for ten governments?

                So it comes down to my other point. Why do we so accept the opinions of the famous, the celebrities, those successful in one aspect of life, be it business, acting or singing and promote them above those whose knowledge and experience is directly applicable?

                • Gypsy …
                  23 November 2021 at 9:10 am

                  "How does that qualify him to pronounce on what is/was the best or worst government in 60-70 years?"

                  The same as it qualifies you to disagree.

                  "Why do we so accept the opinions of the famous, the celebrities, those successful in one aspect of life, be it business, acting or singing and promote them above those whose knowledge and experience is directly applicable?"

                  Who are these people "whose knowledge and experience is directly applicable?" The politicians themselves? The opinion of successful people such as Bolton has value because they are the ones doing the hard yards to make NZ successful. They employ people, pay taxes. They lead organisations at the coalface of the very problems politicians create.

                  • mac1 …
                    23 November 2021 at 10:54 am

                    I haven't agreed or disagreed with you or Bolton about the issue of which was the worst or best government.

                    My issue was whether I should be persuaded by the reckons of a businessman, whether anyone should be persuaded by the reckons of such folk.

                    If he were to pronounce on what was the most business-friendly government, he might well have a worthy opinion.

                    But I offer the contention that good government is more than business friendliness.

                    Even though this government has been very well world ranked for business friendliness. Here's the 2020 ranking. First!

                    https://www.companiesoffice.govt.nz/insights-and-articles/nz-ranks-first-for-ease-of-doing-business-for-the-fourth-year/

                    • Gypsy …
                      23 November 2021 at 12:41 pm

                      "My issue was whether I should be persuaded by the reckons of a businessman, whether anyone should be persuaded by the reckons of such folk."

                      I don't think you should be. My view is we should take into account a range of opinions from people we respect, even if we don't always agree with them.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1.2
              22 November 2021 at 5:07 pm

              Yes I have come across these types of comments where outrageous things, way outside their expertise are said and then the press (often from a press release) states XXXX YYYY was president of the Waikikamoocau Sand Fertiliser Works and owns the local Ford dealership. Because of this somehow they feel their opinions seem to be worth more than Joseph Blow who has a degree in English Tudor History and is being house husband to three children, or Mrs Taitama who runs the Kohanga Reo, or any person in the street. The NZ cringe really.

              The press really should be asking sometimes, and your expertise is…….

              There was a radio station recently that got some OTT letters and handled them very well on air.

              I usually say 'I give nothing to racism, sexism'. etc. This puzzles people sometimes and gives me the chance to explain my view that what they are saying may be racist, sexist etc.

              Good luck with the critique. I find looking at the HR Act is good to start with. Pretty simple Act and stark about its impact.

              • mac1 …
                22 November 2021 at 6:39 pm

                Thanks, Shanreagh. I've just seen the letter resulting re the extremist ranting and it addresses the issues.

                Joseph Blow sounds a bit like me, actually.

        • Blazer 1.1.2.2
          22 November 2021 at 8:53 am

          Dear oh dear!…you really know how to ..sugar coat things…Adrian.laugh

        • Craig Hall 1.1.2.3
          22 November 2021 at 9:30 am

          My observation of the past 4 years is that there is too much deference to the Public Service and other advice, and not enough going with what Labour actually believes (think policy platforms etc). It may or may not work, but Little's rejection of the advice and instead opting to lead Cabinet in disestablishing all DHBs was a welcome departure from that in my view.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2.3.1
            22 November 2021 at 12:32 pm

            Add Chris Hipkins to that list. He has stopped the money basis of Education, and managed to keep things intact during 4 rounds of covid.

            Kris Fafoi has changed the credit trap significantly, and has slowed the "cheap labour" supply. That has not endeared him to many.

            Megan Woods has beavered away at housing, using her people skills to get the opposition onside.

            Jacinda Ardern has demoted Ministers who failed their brief or did not live by the morality and honesty expected.

            Gezza does not like Ardern and is carefully leaving out qualities we have noted throughout her tenure.

            Relationships with other Leaders, recognised by her peers.

            Crisis management. Both short and longterm. She has excelled in her managment of the following in the last 4 years.

            Fruit fly incursion, Micoplasma Bovis, Kauri dieback, Myrtle Rust, an erruption and the sad outcome, Two terror attacks, Covid 19 and now Delta, plus dealing with the problems of 501s being sent here by Dutton. The other big issues are climate change inequality and being a good Treaty partner, Trade and controlling the huge influence of runaway tech giants and their Algorithms.

            The current memes have changed from "It is Winston telling her what to do" to she is "Going to resign and take a better paying overseas position"

            Her very few flashes of anger and disparagement born out of the silly comments from the opposition, can be understood. Generally she is patient and answers questions openly, saying she will find out/come back if needing more detail to answer. Her clear full answers where she heads off journalists' loaded questions is a lesson in control. People generally said they were amazed at her tolerance.

            This is a Pandemic. It is not over, and we are finding how to live with it while keeping our little boat afloat. A great number of people voted for this Government. Some have wavered in the face of the necessary decisions to keep us safe, and others are threatened by the coming changes, so they may also have doubts. The facts show an amazing balancing act.

            Qualities not on the original list.

            Honest, openminded, people centered, thoughtful, strength of character able to rise to the occasion able to face problems squarely and plan a way forward able to hold the respect and loyalty of those she is leading.

            She clearly loves NZ. I hope she is PM for as long as possible, as given all those extra problems things are bad but by overseas standards more than acceptable with big efforts being made to turn many problems round.

            Just my not important opinion. Oh and a disclaimer. I am a Life Labour Party member, and I am proud of the Labour legacy.

            • Craig Hall 1.1.2.3.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 2:15 pm

              Congratulations on the life membership, that's fantastic recognition. I'm also a Labour Party member (VFL) and volunteer (did 5 years as campaign and LEC treasurer) but not at that level!

              Hipkins' work on the Education System is an excellent example of a minister pushing past the public service advice, and possible 3 Waters could be the next big example of that. And that was a good reminder that good work has been done and continues, and it can be a long slog on intractable issues. Perhaps my frustration is that some issues have been beyond the political will of the voters rather than cabinet, like redesigning the tax system.

            • Gezza 1.1.2.3.1.2
              22 November 2021 at 11:18 pm

              Gezza does not like Ardern and is carefully leaving out qualities we have noted throughout her tenure.

              Neither of those assertions is true, Patricia. Another epic fail mind-reader. I do not pretend to know what you think or how you think. Please do not think you can do that with me. You can’t. You are not me. You do not see thru my eyes.

              I do not adore Ardern, like some do, & see some faults or shortcomings. It is incorrect – in fact it’s false – to say I do not like her & imply that is my entire assessment.

              I have NOT carefully left out qualities you think she has that should be in the list. False again.

              Imo, Ardern has many of the qualities I came up with. My mission was not to write them around any particular PM, but to come with my ideal list, from my own perspective. Then see who seemed to meet all or most of them.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2.4
          22 November 2021 at 12:46 pm

          Adrian, how long has that "lifetime" been?

    • Tiger Mountain 1.2
      22 November 2021 at 8:27 am

      Those qualities are all mostly “transferable”. That skill set could almost be used in an authoritarian administration or…cough…a neo liberal state like New Zealand with a monetarist consensus among main parties. You know–free as possible in and out flow of capital, deregulation, managerialist culture, penetration of public infrastructure by private capital…that kind of thing.

      What is missing is a requirement for a class left political understanding, analysis and action plan.

      • Gezza 1.2.1
        22 November 2021 at 8:46 am

        Be very happy to see your attempt to set out briefly how that would look.

        I don’t see my list as in any way neo liberal. Applies just as well to a capable left wing leader, imo.

        • Tiger Mountain 1.2.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 9:20 am

          Certainly Gezza. Just from my perspective who needs highly efficient, even likeable leaders, that end up reinforcing capitalist class power via the neo liberal state and legislation?

          It is time for a referendum on monetarism–it has never been put to the vote–not when Roger slipped it in, and Ruth aggressively continued TINA–because for the main parties structural neo liberalism is the default cultural and legislative setting via Reserve Bank Act, State Sector Act etc.

          • alwyn 1.2.1.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 9:36 am

            "It is time for a referendum on monetarism"

            To have a referendum you have to be able to ask a clear question that can, normally, be answered with a YES or a NO. It is possible to have more than two answers but they still have to be in a simple form. ie I choose A or I choose B or I choose C.

            What on earth is you question going to be?

        • Blazer 1.2.1.2
          22 November 2021 at 10:15 am

          I've gone right off Jacinda myself….first Ireland and now the French ,beating the AB's…that was the last…straw.

          • Shanreagh 1.2.1.2.1
            22 November 2021 at 5:11 pm

            Yeah it is hard to keep opinions on an even keel when these sorts of things are allowed to happen. Must be the Guvmint's fault some where some how

    • Puckish Rogue 1.3
      22 November 2021 at 10:43 am

      Hi Gezza

      Are all these qualities of equal value or are they different.

      For example, to me, John Key scores very highly in the strong category whereas Jacinda Ardern doesn't however Jacinda scores highly on the clear vision but John does not

      So do you have a ranking for what qualities are higher or lower or what qualities you're willing to 'let go' if the other qualities are there

      Also, in your opinion, how would Bill English gone as leader if he'd had a proper go of it

      • Blazer 1.3.1
        22 November 2021 at 11:27 am

        How on earth did English not have a 'proper go' at it?

        His fav line was 'there is no silver bullet'…maintained the Key legacy….'kick the can…down the road=let someone else …deal with it.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.2
        22 November 2021 at 12:53 pm

        'Honest John' was a strong proponent of Dirty Politics, as was and is the current 'leader' of the opposition. Jamie-Lee Ross, Rodger 'Merv' Bridge, Sandra Goudie, Matt King, Michelle Boag, Hamish Walker, Michael Woodhouse, Andrew Falloon, Todd Barclay, Nick Smith, etc. etc. – all part of Key's 'legacy'. Just imagine – thank-you Peters!

        how would Bill English gone as leader if he'd had a proper go of it

        As leader of the Nats for 3 years, including 10 months as PM, English did have "a proper go of it"; personally I think English, Bridges, Muller and Kaye would all be doing a better job of leading the Nats than the incumbent, but that's not saying much, is it?

      • Gezza 1.3.3
        22 November 2021 at 2:25 pm

        I listed them in no particular order orher than when they popped into my head & I wrote them down, Pucky.

        I haven’t considered weighting them, or assigning them a priority, because I see them as a desirable set & see no useful purpose in trying to assign one quality as of more value than another when the caucus, & the national situations, can change at each eiection & throw any such attempt up in the air.

    • AB 1.4
      22 November 2021 at 11:17 am

      I think the language around the idea of 'leadership' has become so debased through overuse, that no useful discussion of the topic is possible.

    • Treetop 1.5
      22 November 2021 at 6:12 pm

      I was not happy how Lees – Galloway left. Not sure if there was more to the situation. Being demoted as a minister would have been enough.

  3. Molly 3
    22 November 2021 at 8:34 am

    Nice 10 minute segment on Gardening Australia about John Clarke and a conservation project he was involved with in his later years.

    (Starts @ 43:37)

  4. weka 4
    22 November 2021 at 8:54 am

    For those following the other day, Millsy has retracted his comment about Greenwald wanting Trump back in. He's now released from the ban list.

    . https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-11-2021/#comment-1835088

    If you want to make claims about people (commenters, public figures, people in the news), then please back up. You can express opinions but once it crosses into details about people or events etc, you have to make the argument and support it with evidence.

    From the Policy,

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  5. woodart 5
    22 November 2021 at 9:37 am

    so the grandswill organised protests got less vehicles going through our cities than a bunch of boy racers on a casual night out . thoughts on how huge the mother of all protests wasnt?

    • Scotty 5.1
      22 November 2021 at 11:43 am

      Yep , the numbers were embarrassingly low, no matter how creative the camera angles got.

      .

      • Patricia Bremner 5.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 4:03 pm

        devil Had the same thought about camera angles.

      • McFlock 5.1.2
        22 November 2021 at 4:10 pm

        my favourite "camera angles" case was Prebble doing a live piece to camera for ACT (yes, it was that long ago). It was in Hagley Park, for breakfast tv ISTR.

        Anyway, Prebble was in front, and behind him were half a dozen or so supporters with a huge number of balloons. Sure enough, a slight gust of wind momentarily parted the balloons and through the crack there was nobody for at least a hundred yards, save one person in the distance looking vaguely towards the camera as their dog sniffed around a tree.

        That was ACT's massive rally in Hagley Park, lol

  6. Gezza 6
    22 November 2021 at 10:06 am

    Hope this doesn't cause inadvertant offence to anyone, but I spotted it in my feed on a very rare visit to my Farcebook page last night & I thought it was funny….

  7. Molly 7
    22 November 2021 at 10:18 am

    I'm reluctant to admit it, but perhaps Jordan Peterson was right about compelled speech and hate speech.

    Women Are Human opinion article:

    Gender Critical Feminism Soon May Be Criminalized in Canada

    If he wasn't then, current law change proposals may change that.

    Freedom of expression is one of the primary tenets of liberty in Canada, but that may soon change.

    Trans activists are cleverly constructing the legal censorship of those of us who still dare to name reality. At the forefront of this charge is trans activist Morgane Oger, who became infamous for convincing the City of Vancouver to defund Canada’s last remaining “female only” rape crisis centre. The Morgane Oger Foundation has been lobbying the Canadian government to regulate the internet, to curb, so-called ‘hate speech’, and on May 16, 2019 delivered testimony to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

    …Perhaps trans activist and professional dominatrix Hailey Heartless described the situation best when he tweeted: “The difference between us is, women like me get podiums, radio interviews, book deals, meetings with lawmakers and national audiences, women like you get your little niche newsletter and your slowly disappearing ‘safe spaces’.” Although he was mocking us, he was right. And once trans rights lobbyists, like Morgane Oger, are consulted by the Canadian government for their input on what to ban specifically, those newsletters and our voices will be lost.

    • Puckish Rogue 7.1
      22 November 2021 at 10:28 am

      Jordan Peterson is a good man.

      He was never against trans people, it was the changing of the wording of the laws he was against.

      • Molly 7.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 11:07 am

        From my perspective, he represents Dworkin's quote on men who view women as private property. I concede he seems to have been prescient on this topic.

        (Am I allowed to suggest his approach and notoriety may have contributed to the adversarial positioning on this topic? No? Damn…)

        So, what did you think of the article?

        • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 11:32 am

          '(Am I allowed to suggest his approach and notoriety may have contributed to the adversarial positioning on this topic? No? Damn…)'

          No doubt.

          I haven't read it yet, I'm still dealing with idiots over the Kyle Rittenhouse trail

        • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.2
          22 November 2021 at 1:35 pm

          It confused me. I still can't get my head around things like this (I probably never will)

          Then it just made me sad, not sad like going to the cupboard and going to grab a biscuit then remembering you're on a diet sad, but sad as in this is how the worlds of 1984 or The Handmaids Tale begin.

          • CAnker the pig fucker 7.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2021 at 7:09 pm

            Your bang on there PR.

            As for Jordon Peterson…..I am glad expresses the opinions he does (mostly). A lot of it I don't agree with it, some I do.

            Watched him interviewed by a feminist Helen (sorry forgotten her name) journalist.

            I think its good he raises stuff about men and their contribution and service and how its men who die in wars, who CS more and who are murdered more.

            But I think neither of them stressed how female biology has disadvantaged us. We are phyically weaker and we have time out for child birth and mothering (I know things are changing with this, but that is why women have more rights now).

            Also most men are wired to pursue sex with females (biologically for survival of the species) but within this men have viewed women as sex objects for their gratification. Obviously this isn't the whole picture. But an importatnt one that contributes to inequality in the sexes.

            • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.2.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 7:18 pm

              'Also most men are wired to pursue sex with females (biologically for survival of the species) but within this men have viewed women as sex objects for their gratification. Obviously this isn't the whole picture. But an importatnt one that contributes to inequality in the sexes.'

              – Yeah I get this

    • Sabine 7.2
      22 November 2021 at 10:58 am

      as intended.

    • gsays 7.3
      22 November 2021 at 12:15 pm

      Hi Molly, I came across this excerpt from a longer video. In it Africa Brooke says how she had decided what to think about Peterson, and that gets 'unpacked'.

      I understand JP can get on people's nerves. I think this clip is worthwhile and gets very touching near the end when JP reveals the impact 'the haters' had on him.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8v7ueICWuU

      • Molly 7.3.1
        22 November 2021 at 1:10 pm

        Thanks, gsays. Will have a look after getting through the webinar below.

        Did you have a look at the article?

        • gsays 7.3.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 2:17 pm

          Yes, I have read the article. Thanks.

          Since my awareness of this issue (BDMRR) was raised by y'all here on TS I have been reading, learning and getting informed.

          I am frustratingly not going to engage in the discussion as there are quite a few threads intertwined and I much rather korero in the flesh where subtleties can be expressed. I can see integrity on both sides of the issue but get turned off when debate goes to the extreme end to make a point. Most of the extremities come from overseas.

          Also, as McFlock demonstrates below, chatter gets shut down quick or bogged down in petty point scoring.

      • McFlock 7.3.2
        22 November 2021 at 1:20 pm

        It's not like Ta-Nehisi Coates is a run of the mill "hater". If "one of the foremost black intellectuals" is calling you out on something, best have a wee think.

        • Puckish Rogue 7.3.2.1
          22 November 2021 at 1:43 pm

          He may be "one of the foremost black intellectuals" but hes certainly not a good comic book writer, this guy on the other hand is, and before you put on your big boy pants, Just Some Guy is black and Bisexual (since labels seem important to you), the first youtube clip is from 2018 just to let you know

          • McFlock 7.3.2.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 3:21 pm

            Dunno about any of that, already watched one damned video of not much today, surprised I bothered with that.

            The point I made was that if someone one describes as being a foremost intellectual satirises one's material (and more specifically how one's core audience recieves it), then some self reflection is in order. Peterson obviously respects Coates. Possibly should reflect upon the criticism, then.

        • gsays 7.3.2.2
          22 November 2021 at 2:22 pm

          Ironically, I have found Petterson to be one of the better, deeper, braver thinkers I have come across.

          • McFlock 7.3.2.2.1
            22 November 2021 at 3:33 pm

            Most deep thinkers would read more than one pamphlet co-authored by marx before participating in a public debate about capitalism vs marxism.

            • DukeEll 7.3.2.2.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 4:55 pm

              still fighting the lost battles of centuries ago?

              The sad fact is there hasn't been an intellectual argument capable of supporting Marxism since Marx; and his own arguments have been disproved worldwide ever since his were made.

              Yet Jordan Peterson is the one who is uneducated about him……

              • McFlock …
                22 November 2021 at 5:41 pm

                Quite plainly, he was.

                The point was that a supposedly deep thinker turned up to a debate using only a cursory reading of the communist manifesto to discuss marxism in general.

                I'm not defending Marx, Žižek did that. Quite competently. Maybe he'd have had a more difficult task if his opponent had done his homework and actually knew the subject area at hand.

              • RedLogix …
                22 November 2021 at 9:09 pm

                The usual transparent tactic when anyone points out marxism's manifest, catastrophic failures is to pretend 'oh that wasn't real communism'.

                Peterson responds that when someone says that, what they're really claiming is 'that if I was in charge of the revolution, it would have all turned out differently'.

                Which of course is nothing but a monumental conceit.

                • Blazer …
                  22 November 2021 at 9:16 pm

                  same with…'crony capitalism'…oh that's not real..Capitalism…!

                  • RedLogix …
                    22 November 2021 at 9:27 pm

                    You haven't been paying attention.

                    Also it may usefully inform us about where each is likely to go too far – due to a distorted overweighting of their primary motive. Conservatives become tyrants when driven by a sense of ‘purity’ engage in race supremacy and jingoist fascism. Liberals when their desire for ‘freedom’ becomes a repudiation of society and manifests as libertarianism and neo-liberal economic theories. And socialists are prone to stepping over the ‘caring’ line when they promote political theories intended to impose equality of outcomes – marxism and it’s modern derivatives in particular.

                    Capitalism is not complicated – it requires no appeal to an arcane theory that can only be understood by the high priests of the cult. It's a rather simple set of economic tools and ideas relating to business formalism, rule of law and markets. Neloliberalism on the other hand was the stupid theory that these useful tools would work if you applied them to everything.

                    • arkie …
                      22 November 2021 at 9:37 pm

                      Capitalism is not complicated – it requires no appeal to an arcane theory that can only be understood by the high priests of the cult.

                      Explain to us how financial derivatives work.

                      You also seem to be conflating markets with capitalism.

                    • arkie …
                      22 November 2021 at 10:08 pm

                      No appeals to high priests and arcane theory huh? lol

                      Marx & Engels at the click of a button for those who are interested in some reading.

                    • RedLogix …
                      22 November 2021 at 10:28 pm

                      OK so in short words you might understand – derivatives are a risk mitigation tool. Within limits they work very well, outside of those limits they don't.

                      Like say double entry book-keeping, the technical details take a bit of learning, but the basic idea is simple enough to understand. Unless of course you're determined not to.

                      Otherwise I see you've completely failed to address the substance of my comment and wandered off down a path of your own bewilderment.

                    • arkie …
                      22 November 2021 at 11:27 pm

                      There’s no need to be so unpleasant surely, this is not complicated stuff!

                      Double-entry bookkeeping also predates capitalism, how interesting!

                      It’s important to have an understanding of that which you are criticising, that’s why I also posted a link to Marx’s bibliography.

                      But in the end, I guess it all depends on how determined you are, either way.

                    • In Vino …
                      22 November 2021 at 11:46 pm

                      Redlogix is very determined to be fucking obtuse and obnoxiously argumentative. He wears us down, but without convincing.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 12:02 am

                      Marxist apologists get the same treatment from me as do libertarians and fascists. That’s not persuasion I’m doing here – it’s scorn.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      23 November 2021 at 2:38 am

                      @ arkie and In Vino, you might find some ideas of retired clinical psychologist Daniel helpful in regard to understanding scorn – I did.

                      In the meantime, I am trusting that you will evaluate my ideas on the basis of their relevance, reasonableness, and fit with your own experience. Readers have the right to disagree. I only ask that you do so thoughtfully and respectfully – for your sake as much as for mine. This would involve resisting two opposing tendencies. First would be a fault-finding dismissal based on a close-minded adherence to your preconceived notions. Second, and just as problematic, would be a total, unquestioning buy-in, so that you can apply the suggestions without questioning or critical thinking. I hope that you find a middle ground between these two extremes, so that you can continue exploring these matters in a spirit of curiosity, adventure, and awe. And if you like, keep me informed on your progress with this quest.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 7:38 am

                      @ DMK

                      Boundaries. Marxism takes the good idea that the extremes of wealth and poverty should be moderated – and goes too far by demanding equal outcomes. Wherever and whenever this boundary is stepped over the actual result has been catastrophe.

                      You wouldn't suggest a 'reasoned discussion' with the ChCh mass murderer – and he only killed 51 people. Why would I engage with an ideology that directly, openly requires the violent eradication of entire classes of 'oppressors'?

                    • Blazer …
                      23 November 2021 at 8:04 am

                      You seem to be confirming that Communism and Capitalism,don't exist in any pure form.

                      I agree.

                      As for ' Why would I engage with an ideology that directly, openly requires the violent eradication of entire classes of 'oppressors'?

                      That bogeyman Communism is subjected to 'eradication' ,it is anathema to Capitalist construct.

                      Cuba is a good study.

                      Cuba cannot be allowed to thrive,in case it encourages other countries to adopt its ideology.

                      After 60 years of embargo and surviving it is now in crisis.

                      Trump enforced financial restrictions on Cuba.

                      Remittances from the U.S ,a large source of finance were halted.

                      Without historical Venezuelan and Soviet assistance, the screaming economy' is near…strangulation.

                    • Blazer …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:43 pm

                      Capitalism still relies on …debt slavery….that's the…reality.

                    • roblogic …
                      23 November 2021 at 6:26 pm

                      Newsflash: Stalin died a long, long time ago. Capitalism is busy committing global ecocide, right now.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 6:37 pm

                      Stalin died a long, long time ago.

                      And marxism should have been buried with him.

                      As for Hedges – long on the alarmism that will get him clicks, short on actual solutions.

                  • RedLogix …
                    23 November 2021 at 8:38 am

                    @Blazer

                    Our definitions are not aligned which makes a conversation unproductive. I outlined my working definitions here.

                    Capitalism, conservatism and socialism normally co-exist in a balance in all modern societies. Some tilt more toward one pole than the other. However:

                    When the idea of liberal capitalism – which is essentially the actions of the individual within a market context – is taken too far you get neo-liberalism or libertarianism.

                    When the idea of conservatism – which is essentially about making what is known and trusted work in a stable fashion – is taken too far you get fascism, race purity and tyranny.

                    When the idea of socialism – which is about moderating the extremes of wealth and poverty, and protecting the most vulnerable – is taken too far into imposing equal outcomes you get communism and all the cultist woke variations it’s morphed into.

                    Using these rough definitions, ordinary conservatism, capitalism and socialism are within the bounds of acceptable political discourse. The others are demonstrably worthless ideologies.

                • KJT …
                  23 November 2021 at 8:36 am

                  You would be taken seriously if you actually knew what Communism is, or read what Marx really wrote. Instead of mindlessly repeating the US idea, that Communists are any Government they don't like.

                  Hint. A State that has a Dictatorship, and Nomenclatura., is by definition, not Communist.

                  Any more than another Dictatorship that claimed to be Socialist, while murdering millions, was Socialist.

                  Even more funny. When it is noted that "Communist" China pulled millions out of poverty more recently. Your fellow parrots start saying. "China is Capitalist, not Communist".

                  I am a supporter of a Democratic mixed economy. But note that Marx was largely correct. Though much of his analysis was the product of his time, it is still one of the best descriptions of Capitalisms working. We are seeing the results of the Marxist theory "diminishing rate of return on capital” in the developed countries now. It is only revolution or the threat of revelation that removes the Kleptocracy. Such as the UK after WW2. Where they started looking after returning soldiers and workers for fear of becoming Russia.

                  Not Marx's wishes. A description of reality.

                  Revolutions tend to end up with the most violent anti democratic and ruthless arseholes on top, which is why they I certainly am against them. Some circumstances, such as Batista’s Cuba, Czarist Russia, pre revolution France,, for example, make life so bad for so many that it becomes inivitable.

                  The US one is a good example. Resulting in a Constitution of "checks and balances" which ensure that "The Masses" will never have Democratic power over the "elite". Little different from Soviet Russia or China. Except the USA does propaganda, fooling the populace, better. As your repeating it proves.

                  • RedLogix …
                    23 November 2021 at 8:42 am

                    You would be taken seriously if you actually knew what Communism is, or read what Marx really wrote.

                    You didn't need to read the ChCh's mass murderer's 'manifesto' to know it was a worthless pile of shit. So why the fuck would anyone take Marx's driveling nonsense seriously>

                    • Blazer …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:00 am

                      Surely you jest!

                      Marx is a legend…

                      ' Marx increasingly became preoccupied with an attempt to understand the contemporary capitalist mode of production, as driven by a remorseless pursuit of profit, whose origins are found in the extraction of surplus value from the exploited proletariat. The precise role of morality and moral criticism in Marx’s critique of contemporary capitalist society is much discussed, and there is no settled scholarly consensus on these issues. His understanding of morality may be related to his account of ideology, and his reflection on the extent to which certain widely-shared misunderstandings might help explain the stability of class-divided societies'- excerpt Stanford Eof Philosophy

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:06 am

                      One would assume because they aren't so determined to remain ignorant or make such outlandish false equivalences.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:14 am

                      Marx is a legend…

                      So was Freud.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:17 am

                      @arkie

                      Yes I do that Aussie cunt an injustice – he only managed 51 dead. Marx and Engels however openly justified and advocated for the eradication of entire classes of people.

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:20 am

                      You can back up that claim with a citation of Marx & Engels doing such a thing?

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:29 am

                      On one hand you claim I know nothing about marxism, and then demand I educate you about it!

                      Use a search engine.

                    • KJT …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:42 am

                      Can't find a citation to back up your claim. Eh. Redlogix? Because, as we know, there isn't one.

                      Pontificating on "what Marx said" without actually bothering to find out what he really said, when it has shaped so much thought on the "Political economy" including influencing a whole lot of Economists, including the ones that disagreed with him, such as Milton Freidman, shows a refusal to inform yourself.

                      Like commenting on Western philosophy while ignoring the bible.
                      Commenting on modern economics while ignoring Marx, is failing to educate yourself.
                      How many people have been murdered in the name of Jesus Christ, who, if he really existed, only advocated for violently overturning money lenders tables?

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:46 am

                      Because, as we know, there isn't one.

                      Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot would all beg to differ.

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:47 am

                      On this site we do not accept: making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof.

                      I am not asking you to educate me.

                    • KJT …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:04 am

                      Marx supported a “Democracy of the Proleteriat”.

                      Not something Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot, were noted for.

                      Bought on by “class struggle”. Not necessarily violent. Mentions Trade Unions and other usually non violent organisations as a means.

                      A Utopian ideal to my mind, but close to the ideals the USA pretends to value.

                      Marx was being descriptive, not prescriptive.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:22 am

                      Marx in his final and culminating paragraph of the The Communist Manifesto stated:

                      "The Communists openly declare that their ends can only be attained by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains.

                      The ambiguity of the word 'forcible' was not in question for the three of Marx's most prominent followers who all engaged in violent revolutions aimed at eradicating those they declared to be the 'oppressor' class.

                      Weasel all you like – the stack of bodies still buried every metre or so under the Highway of Bones is proof enough for any sane person.

                    • KJT …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:30 am

                      Like the US revolution, eh?

                      If you had been a serf or factory worker in Czarist Russia. I think you would have been rather keen on “removing the oppressor”.
                      Unfortunately replaced with another. Would you have supported anyone who “violently removed” Stalin?
                      Which sort of confirms what Marx said about the History of class struggle.

                      We will forget about the fact that the US “highway of bones” must be getting in numbers close to Stalin by now. But they are mostly Brown people, so, who cares.

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:36 am

                      So Marx and Engels didn't openly justify and advocate for the eradication of entire classes of people. Who'd've thunk it!

                      Some extra reading for those who are interested: Status of Violence in Marx's Theory of Revolution

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:50 am

                      Your denial of the fucking obvious is contemptible. Unlike you I did get to travel over that grim Highway I mentioned above – on the way to a gold processing project in the region. You on the other hand cannot even bring yourself to name it.

                      The last para of the paramount document in all of marxist literature calls for a forcible overthrow of the social order – an instruction carried out to the fucking letter by actual marxist revolutionaries and you pretend it has another meaning.

                      You demanded I provide a cite and I did.

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 11:02 am

                      Your conflation of the actions of 20th century dictators with the readily accessible writings of 19th century political activists is not only disingenuous but also inaccurate, as you yourself have demonstrated.

                      Don’t get me wrong: regimes that took the name “communist” – from Stalin’s to Pol Pot’s – committed unspeakable, monstrous crimes. But for the right, a revival of interest in Marx’s pre-Stalinist vision of communism is the most striking and chilling example of its own collapsing ideological supremacy: “communism” is synonymous with tens of millions of deaths and nothing else. Capitalism, by contrast, is presented as a largely bloodless, blameless engine of human prosperity.

                      The story of capitalism is more complicated than that. If you want to read effusive praise of capitalism, you’ll find it in Marx and Engels’ Communist Manifesto: the revolutionary dynamism of the capitalists, they wrote, had created “wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals”. But capitalism is an economic system drenched in the blood of countless millions.

                      …

                      Capitalism was built on the bodies of millions from the very start. From the late 17th century onwards, the transatlantic slave trade became a pillar of emergent capitalism. Much of the wealth of London, Bristol and Liverpool – once the largest slave trading port in Europe – was made from the enslaved labour of Africans. The capital accumulated from slavery – from tobacco, cotton and sugar – drove the industrial revolution in Manchester and Lancashire; and several banks today can trace their origins to profits made from slavery.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/26/communists-capitalism-stalinism-economic-model

                      the paramount document in all of marxist literature

                      No that would be Capital, the communist manifesto is a political pamphlet.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 11:18 am

                      Capitalism was built on the bodies of millions from the very start. From the late 17th century onwards, the transatlantic slave trade became a pillar of emergent capitalism.

                      Spare me the tedious whaddaboudism.

                      Slavery is an ancient almost universal feature of most known historic societies – pre-dating capitalism by millenia. For a relatively short period slavery and an emerging capitalism overlapped, but very quickly capitalist industrialisation led to the direct end of chattel slavery. (A process incidentally led largely by the same class of 'exploiting' Europeans Owen Jones manages to completely ignore.)

                      If not for this capitalism you hate so much, slavery would be as commonplace and endemic as ever. Statistically you wouldn't even be alive and able to type out your complaints about it here.

                    • roblogic …
                      23 November 2021 at 11:35 am

                      Capitalism is a great system … for the capitalists. Pretty shit for the workers, the environment, wildlife, democracy, or ethics. IMNSHO is it a spiritual force of evil

                      https://twitter.com/ianpaulwright/status/1452985473580904448?s=20

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 11:49 am

                      Tedious whataboutism, me? lol

                      very quickly capitalist industrialisation led to the direct end of chattel slavery.

                      From your provided link:

                      Slavery in the 21st century continues and generates $150 billion in annual profits.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

                      Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years. The number purchased by the traders was considerably higher, as the passage had a high death rate with approximately 1.2-2.4 million dying during the voyage and millions more in seasoning camps in the Caribbean after arrival in the New World. Millions of people also died as a result of slave raids, wars, and during transport to the coast for sale to European slave traders.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

                      How generous of those European nations to abolish slavery after benefitting from it for 400 years.

                      I don’t hate capitalism, where did I make that claim? Why do you feel the need to fabricate the words of others?

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 12:49 pm

                      @arkie

                      Slavery in the 21st Century. OK so lets look at this – because clearly you didn't. Well bugger me there right at the top, a map showing where it remains most prevalent. All arguably the last places on earth you'd hold up as liberal democratic, developed 'rule of law', capitalist style nations.

                      How generous of those European nations to abolish slavery after benefitting from it for 400 years.

                      More denial. Virtually every major historic society featured slavery due to their lack of industrialisation. The only time and places where slavery has been made both permanently illegal and largely abolished have been those featuring a capitalist industrialisation – which really started to dominate from the early to mid 1800’s.

                      @roblogic

                      Anything from Twitter = Automatic Fail

                    • arkie …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:07 pm

                      So slavery didn’t end, as you claimed, it is still ongoing despite the law. In a globalised economy those on the top still benefit from it no matter where it occurs.

                      In the 21st Century, almost every country has legally abolished chattel slavery, but the number of people currently enslaved around the world is far greater than the number of slaves during the historical Atlantic slave trade.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:28 pm

                      but the number of people currently enslaved around the world is far greater than the number of slaves during the historical Atlantic slave trade.

                      A typical piece of intellectual dishonesty that has to erase context to even look faintly plausible.

                      For a start the human population has increased roughly ten-fold in that period. Failing to correct for that alone makes it a meaningless comparison. To make matters worse it compares one subset of slavery, the trans-Atlantic trade, with the total global trade today.

                      For a second – those places where it remains most prevalent are the least developed places on earth. Nothing much of any 'benefit' comes from these places that could not be done more efficiently and profitably without slavery.

                      And while this residual slavery is of course deplorable – at maybe 40m people and maybe $150b of revenue it represents a diminishing and very minor fraction of the total global economy.

                      Given that chattel slavery is virtually non-existent in all the developed, industrialised, capitalist nations that feature a reliable rule of law and property rights – the obvious way to fully and finally eradicate slavery is to extend these conditions everywhere.

                    • roblogic …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:32 pm

                      "Anything from Twitter = Automatic Fail"

                      lol, you're missing out mate. 😛

                      I agree with Marx's view of capital as an "egregore"; a disembodied entity with its own demonic life force; which describes the modern multinational corporation such as BlackRock perfectly. This is a popular essay on the topic:

                      Marx on Capital as a Real God – 𝗗𝗔𝗥𝗞 𝗠𝗔𝗥𝗫𝗜𝗦𝗠 (wordpress.com)

                      Tangential: A freaky cyberpunk short story in the vein of "Snow Crash":

                      The Gig Economy – Zero HP Lovecraft (wordpress.com)

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:43 pm

                      The closest I've seen anything truly demonic was visiting Perm 36 in 2001.

                    • KJT …
                      23 November 2021 at 6:45 pm

                      RL. Are you really trying to argue that Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin only existed because Marx?

                      All the hundreds of other bloody despots in history. Many before Marx was even born. Robespierre, Pinochet, Hitler, the Shah, Stroessner, Suharto, Videla. The many that came out on top after revolutions. All due to Marx?

                      Not the circumstances of the time?

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 7:05 pm

                      Are you really trying to argue that Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin only existed because Marx?

                      They absolutely relied on marxism as their justification. All monsters need an ideology to give cover to their madness – and classical marxism is certainly not the only one they turn to.

                      And as I've carefully outlined, but everyone ignores, ideology is what you get when you take a good idea in isolation, like fairness, purity, or freedom and make it into a totalising solution that will deliver some future utopia. Which is promised to be so wonderful that any amount of destruction and horror is justified to achieve it.

                      Which is essentially what all of the tyrants you have named share in common.

                    • KJT …
                      23 November 2021 at 9:49 pm

                      Slowly getting to the point, but resisting at every turn.

                      That it is not the utopian ideology that is the problem.

                      It is the wannabee tyrant that uses it as an excuse.

                      Christianity was used as a reason for tyranny, for centuries. Causing more deaths than any other "ideology".
                      Now we have US, exceptionalism.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 November 2021 at 10:34 pm

                      It is the wannabee tyrant that uses it as an excuse.

                      In the case of marxism the tyranny is baked in. Because the goal is equality of outcome but all humans are different – the revolution must impose it's new social order. The oppressor class must be overthrown and replaced with the worker class – who will magically deliver the promised utopia. (Exactly how remains mostly unexamined.)

                      Authoritarian personalities are deeply drawn to this prospect, they imagine they will be the ones doing the 'redistributing'. All the petty tyrants – and they lurk everywhere – come out of the woodwork like the zombies in World War Z to inflict their revenge for every slight and hurt they've carefully nurtured.

                      Those who have lived through communism say that it was not so much the brutality of the state they feared – because they expected that – but that no-one not even their family, could be trusted not to betray them. As a result everyone spoke in lies all the time.

        • swordfish 7.3.2.3
          22 November 2021 at 8:09 pm

          .

          Ta-Nehisi Coates … "one of the foremost black intellectuals"

          LOL … more like one of the High Priests of the Critical Race Theory Religious Cult of which you are a particularly ambitious & dogmatic local cheerleader.

          Somewhat akin to a Church of Scientology enforcer.

    • weka 7.4
      22 November 2021 at 1:54 pm

      I got about half way through and gave up. It doesn't really explain the Bills and how they are likely to be interpreted and acted upon.

      • Molly 7.4.1
        22 November 2021 at 2:18 pm

        You have to go to the annotated links for that detail, but it is there..

        eg. No. 3 – Combatting hate speech and hate crimes: Proposed legislative changes to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code – Canadian Govt site.

        ..and it is an opinion piece.

        • weka 7.4.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 4:16 pm

          yeah, I don't even have my head around the NZ legislation, not going to deep dive on the Canadian's, so left not much the wiser. She might be right, or she might be over egging it. It's a problem, including in NZ, that we don't have many straightforward explanations of legislation (not just in this area).

  8. Stephen D 8
    22 November 2021 at 10:32 am

    On the subject of systemic racism in medicine. This was mentioned on Morning Report. That pulse oximeters have an inbuilt bias. The readings for those with non white skin aren’t as accurate.

    “Pulse oximetry devices used for warning of low blood oxygenation in covid-19 and other diseases may be missing three times as many cases of occult hypoxaemia in black patients as in white, says a study report published in the New England Journal of Medicine.1

    Researchers looked at over 48 000 pulse oximetry readings in 8675 US white patients and 1326 US black patients, comparing them with more accurate arterial oxygen saturation measures taken almost contemporaneously.

    Among white patients whose pulse oximetry readings were 92-96%, the proportion who actually had arterial oxygen saturation below 88% was 3.6% (95% confidence interval 2.5% to 4.6%). But among black patients the proportion actually below that figure was 11.4% (7.6% to 15.2%).

    “Our results suggest that reliance on pulse oximetry to triage patients and adjust supplemental oxygen levels may place black patients at increased risk for hypoxaemia,” noted the study authors, from the University of Michigan Medical School. The study is the latest of many to find that current assumptions and algorithms, often derived from heavily white patient populations, may work against black patients.2”

    When products are developed by predominantly white folks, they fail to take colour into account. The same has been found with facial recognition software.

    No easy fix, unless tertiary institutions take affirmative action more seriously.

  9. francesca 9
    22 November 2021 at 10:35 am

    "women like me"

    How about "men like me", who mimic women outwardly and to different degrees of success, who have an innate feeling of womanhood without any of the experience of being female.Who feel more comfortable in life presenting as a woman , looking like a woman ,behaving as if they were a woman

    Women they are not, unless we are to tear down our understanding of reproduction of mammalian species, based on binary sex.And totally demolish the language that has evolved around that

    Anyone keen to start degendering French and Spanish etc?

    • Molly 9.1
      22 November 2021 at 10:44 am

      The language distortion aids in the derailing of transparency and open discussion.

      It has real world impacts, often negative for women as a class.

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 11:03 am

        We are barely human in the eyes of some. And this movement is a MRA movement for middle class white male to assert their dominance over NON Males and bros will be supporting it. In the end, bros will not suffer from this, only non bros. And thus it was ever since.

        I have long maintained the idea that men will never be allies of women. And this movement demonstrates it so nicely.

        We are no longer a class. We are something that anyone can be and no one can define.

        • roblogic 9.1.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 3:38 pm

          "men will never be the allies of women"

          That's a sad perspective. Most men love the women and girls in their lives, and would protect them ahead of their own life. Don't focus on the criminals when most guys are quietly working to make the world better.

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 5:08 pm

            I am not focusing on any man in particular.

            But the 'class' of men that is the other 50% of the worlds population is not a womens friend. Not even to their 'own' women such as 'their' wife or 'their' child.

            Please point where 'guys' are working quietly to make things better for women by allowing men into female prisons, female shelters, female rape crisis centres, female changing rooms, female toilets, female swimming hours, female sports, female awards, female hospital wards and oh allowing male lesbians to demand women suck their lady dicks in the name of lesbianism.

            I can't wait to see that, cause all of these things are being pushed through not by criminals but by lawmakers, lawyers, opinion makers, journalists, and the likes. Unless you are calling these people criminals and i am just missing the 'joke' in all of that.

            • roblogic 9.1.1.1.1.1
              22 November 2021 at 5:10 pm

              I think you'll find that half of the misguided activists pushing these idiotic reforms are idealistic millennial women with their heads in the clouds

              • Sabine …
                22 November 2021 at 5:21 pm

                You will find that if you look long enough at the Labour Party – the one which is currently in a single majority government – that it is not a bunch of idealistic millennial women with their heads in the clouds – but full of men and women being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars each to make this into law, and they are cynically enough to push that into law, knowing full well that non of that will ever really affect them.

                You will find that if you look long enough – and you have all the submissions to watch for the spectacle of rude manners, the condescending bullthittery that came courtesy of the idealistic middle aged women of the Labour and Green Party – that Mme Kere Kere, Mme Wall, Mme Russel et al, – are really pushing hard for this to become law.

                You will find that if you look long enough, that it is our lawmaker in government who push that shit on women – no debate and all – and non of the men in parliament are saying a single word but then maybe they are cowards. Who knows.

                You will find that if you look long enough, that maybe it is time for the silent blokes who love 'their women' and 'their mothers' and 'their daughters' to maybe just maybe start speaking up on behalf of 'their' women.

                • CAnker the pig fucker …
                  22 November 2021 at 7:15 pm

                  And if they can't do it for the women, do it for the safeguarding of girls.

                  • Gezza …
                    23 November 2021 at 12:23 am

                    You will find that if you look long enough, that maybe it is time for the silent blokes who love ‘their women’ and ‘their mothers’ and ‘their daughters’ to maybe just maybe start speaking up on behalf of ‘their’ women.

                    The problem with this solution is that two generations of men who have done so have been shouted down by women for having the temerity to “think they can speak on women’s behalf”.

                    And even the “tone’ of that sentence I quote, and the negative, sarcastic-seeming framing of the word “their” (apparently implying men still think they own women in this country, which is nonsense) makes men want to back out & leave it to the girls & women to fight their own battles. Which is precisely what we have been told to do over & over again by misandrist females for several decades now.

                    Change your language, & your approach, if you want help from men. And don’t ask “men” to change other people they can’t, any more than you can.

                    Newsflash: Men are not all the exact same creature, always collectively perceiving & acting in their own common group interest. That thinking is shite.

                    We are unique all individuals & how we relate to the women in our lives is unique & individual too. The biggest influence on who I am, how I relate to people, & how I perceive things was my mother, not my father. Though I loved them both equally, nature & nurture has made me more like mum than dad in personality. And I’m comfortable with that – because I think it makes me a nicer MAN.

                    • Gezza …
                      23 November 2021 at 12:35 am

                      🙄 * We are all unique individuals…

                    • Sabine …
                      23 November 2021 at 12:24 pm

                      Change your language, & your approach, if you want help from men. And don’t ask “men” to change other people they can’t, any more than you can.

                      well then, I won't expect YOU to help women – who may or may not be 'yours', as i won't change my language. But then, i don't expect men to help. I don't expect men to be allies of anyone who is not a man. I simply expect men to stand by and do nothing. As usual.

                      But thanks for stating it so clearly.

                    • Gezza …
                      23 November 2021 at 1:09 pm

                      @ Sabine

                      But then, i don’t expect men to help. I don’t expect men to be allies of anyone who is not a man. I simply expect men to stand by and do nothing. As usual.

                      I help women all the time. I also help men. Anyone who asks for my help generally gets it, if I can actually help. That’s how I was brought up.

                      I don’t know your full story, but some of your recent comments that I have read – and your pseudonym – point to a harrowing background, & who knows maybe even PTSD. Apparently your experience has prejudiced you against men in general.

                      I am sorry if that is so, but don’t expect to get away with frequently lambasting men in general because of your distorted perception of what “men” are like. You are not a man & you don’t know what you are talking about. Talking only to others who feel the same way about men will never open your eyes to what most men are really like.

                      And lambasting & hectoring “men” will just see you mentally categorised as a man-hater & ignored because of it, imo.

                    • roblogic …
                      23 November 2021 at 6:34 pm

                      @Gezza, well said. I gave up earlier because my motives were impugned. It seems that our interlocutor is projecting anger at the wrong targets.

                    • roblogic …
                      23 November 2021 at 6:38 pm

                      "we are all unique individuals"

                      "I'm not"

                      https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ

  10. francesca 10
    22 November 2021 at 11:01 am

    What starts off as politeness and empathy (addressing transwomen as if they were in fact truly women ) can end being embedded in policy and law, to the detriment of women

    • Molly 10.1
      22 November 2021 at 11:12 am

      Jane Clare Jones does a good satire here on your point:

      The Annals of the Terf Wars

      (Doesn't change anything, but may raise a wry smile.)

      • Sabine 10.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 11:19 am

        she stopped in 2018, she needs updating.

        this one fits too. https://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/04/this-is-how-they-broke-our-grandmothers/

        And no that one ain't funny, but then history is never really funny when one is part of the losing 'class'. Right?

        • Molly 10.1.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 11:28 am

          Thanks. Sabine.

          Good article, and good links.

          Still exploring the links, but will share one of the closing sentences:

          Because, as Lierre Keith says, oppression is not a misunderstanding.

          • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2021 at 2:10 pm

            "oppression is not a misunderstanding"

            Yeah had this discussion one with some women who were lamenting their negotiation skills and deciding that they had to get better at it.

            They discovered that all the men who started with them started on significantly higher salaries than they did. They had decided it was their own fault – most were more skilled and experienced than the men.

            I pointed out that the person who was responsible for employing them was the only person who knew all the salaries he was starting people on and that he had made conscious decisions about each and everyone including the context of gender and the obvious disparity. These were conscious decisions to pay all the men more. The only person who could have fixed it at the time was that person.

            Therein lies most of the problem – if the people who could fix it wanted to do so they don't need committees, investigations, protests, unions, legislation, etc to do so. They just need to exercise the power they already have. That they choose not to is deliberate.

  11. Molly 11
    22 November 2021 at 12:37 pm

    Very long (>3hr) webinar on ROGD (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria).

    Stella O’Malley, psychotherapist & author — ‘How Clinicians Work with ROGD’

    Jude, a parent campaigner — ‘From Theory to Reality: When ROGD Hits Your Family’

    Dr David Bell, Former Consultant Psychiatrist, Ex-Governor at Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust — ‘First Do No Harm’

    Dr Lisa Littman, Public Health Researcher — ‘Psychosocial Factors & Gender Dysphoria’

    Questions from the audience.

    Timestamps for each on the Youtube site.

  12. observer 12
    22 November 2021 at 1:49 pm

    One third of NZ voters think the PM is performing badly. That's after a drop in her approval rating.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/newshub-reid-research-poll-growing-number-of-voters-believe-jacinda-ardern-performing-badly.html

    When you consider the angry right and the disappointed left, that is a remarkably low number. Compare leaders of other democracies: Boris Johnson, for example has an approval rating of 25% (source: YouGov). In fact, the Evil Cindy Dictator is so unpopular in her country that she must resign no other leader in any Western democracy has a higher approval rating (except Angela Merkel as she bids farewell). And this is after a slump.

  13. lprent 13
    22 November 2021 at 3:06 pm

    Backups failing to move to the correct place ran the database system out of disk space.

    I'll change that properly later today.

    Site was down for about 30 minutes.

  14. observer 14
    22 November 2021 at 3:12 pm

    They printed this. They're proud of it. And worse, they probably think they're funny. Because she looks like a horse, geddit?!!11!!1

    Racists gonna racist

    • McFlock 14.1
      22 November 2021 at 3:42 pm

      OH!

      I was looking at that damned thing, and didn't get the "Mrs Ed" comment at all. Must have gotten so distracted by the overt racism that it overloaded my fuckwit-detector.

      • Pete 14.1.1
        22 November 2021 at 3:59 pm

        What I don't get is why the address of the place isn't up.

        • McFlock 14.1.1.1
          22 November 2021 at 4:04 pm

          I'm ok with that in this case – it's so beyond the pale that the right whingers will end up throwing money at them. As it is, nobody can boycott it because airbnb has already ditched it from their listings.

          This way, they don't even get the oxygen of complaining about freeze peach and vuctumhood.

          Although NZ being small as it is, it'll probably get out in a couple of days. Even if the owners don't out themselves to explain how it was just a joke, or what have you.

          • Gezza 14.1.1.1.1
            23 November 2021 at 12:45 am

            Those owners are own-foot-shooters living in some strange Pākehā-supremacist world where being Māori is apparently some kind of social crime. 🙄

            That story almost beggars belief.

  15. Maurice 15
    22 November 2021 at 3:27 pm

    Thanks for the update. Noticed that when trying to link to 22-11-2021 Open Mike and ended up with 21-11-21 Open mike showing.

    All good now

  16. Jimmy 16
    22 November 2021 at 4:28 pm

    Barry Soper being a real pushy prick thinking his questions are the only important ones at the stand up this afternoon. Jacinda is more patient with him than I would be.

    • observer 16.1
      22 November 2021 at 5:03 pm

      He stormed out!

      But remember, it's the woman PM who is "flaky" or does a "hissy fit" or is "emotional", etc, etc. Not Barry with the balls.

  17. Craig Hall 17
    22 November 2021 at 4:38 pm

    On the off chance anyone missed it, NZ moves to the Covid Protection Framework (aka traffic lights) 23:59 Thursday 2 December. Next Monday's cabinet meeting will decide which level each region transitions at, but Auckland has been flagged as being Red.
    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/22/nzs-new-covid-traffic-light-system-what-it-means-for-you/

  18. millsy 18
    23 November 2021 at 12:37 pm

    Never thought I would see the day when this blog waxes lyrical about Jordan Peterson, guy who wants to roll back all the social gains over the last 50 years and restore a puritanical patriarchial society where all forms of pleasure are outlaws, and LGBT's have no rights.

    No wonder I dont post here much any more. You guys are getting worse and worse each day.